Diesels

Hi,

did anybody hear anything about a diesel engine in a gyro ?

They become more and more intersting in GA,
some were aleady cerified (Centurion),
some are on their way (Hawk).

Any comments ?

PTKay

Gentlemen,

there is a cerified 1,7 l Mercedes (Smart) turbo diesel
available for avaiation applications.
It's commercial name is Centurion made by Thielert.

www.tae-engines.com

in Germany. Its already JAA cerified and flying in Diamond
"plastic planes".

I think it might be a great opportunity for gyros.

The weight to power ratio is great, but more the
dead thrust to weight. By same hp it has 50% more torque.

Generally, diesel for aircraft is the future (I belive)

At least for bigger enclosed gyros instead of Sub or others.


See also http://www.deltahawkengines.com/

Their rev range is low, no need for re-drive.

PTKay

When I read about all this carb heat, lean or rich mix etc. on the cerified engines, I can just laugh...

Small Diesel are now (specially in Europe) high in coming.

Have a look on some pages:

http://www.geocities.com/plane_diesel/index.html

http://www.dieselair.com/


PTKay

[gyromike]

ptkay,

You need to fill out your profile information as per the Administrators request:

"Everyone is welcome to register using whatever name they choose. However it will now be a requirement of this forum that your real name be available within your profile. It is recommended that you include your real name and hometown as part of your signature like I've done (see below). Anyone diagreeing with this policy, I apologize and hope this won't prevent you from participating"

Here is the complete thread:

http://www.rotaryforum.com/rotary/index.php?board=2;action=display;threadid=265

[Whirlydog]

PTKay,

The diesel movement here in the states is very very slow in coming. Mostly we only see diesels in the big rigs, ships, or industrial usages. I believe there is a lot of ignorance regarding diesel advances you see in Europe.

Here in the states the only car manufacturer that is willing to try selling a smaller diesel is VolksWagon. I also hear that Mercedes may try to reintroduce a diesel again the year.

Thanks for the websites you mentioned. Most of the Diesels such as the Deltahawk and WAM, and Thielert, I beleive are still in the testing and certification stage. They are also very expensive and would stop a lot of people from even looking, much less consider installing one on a gyro. That is why I am thinking of trying to use a used VW1.9TDI engine, it is an established "car engine", that you should be able to get cheap, and have parts available that don't cost an arm and a leg, and my be more reliable in higher altitudes (just a guess). At least that is my thinking.

Shawn

[Mike Hook]

I looked up the HP on the wv diesel and it was only 90 hp but the torque was good. Do you know what the weight of the motor is?

Mike Hook

[Whirlydog]

I check that out about a year ago and if my memory serve me right I think it is 209lbs.

Shawn

[PTKay]

These cars and egines are very popular in Europe.

Is it 1.9 l turbo diesel ?

If so, it's really app. 100 kg.

PTKay

[PTKay]

Mike G.

My profile is alredy updated.

Sorry.
:)

PTKay

[Whirlydog]

Yes the VW 1.9TDI engine I was refering to is turbo charged. I think the TDI stand for Turbo Direct Inject. Which means that it is turbo charged and fuel injected.

What is the ratio/ conversion factor from KG to LBS?

Shawn

[Mike Hook]

Here goes next question lol. Can the VW engine run on jet fuel instead of #2 diesel fuel. I have read on some of the other diesel aircraft motors that they can. #2 deisel can jell up if it gets too cold and you sure dont want to have to thaw a line at 5,000 ft.

Mike Hook

[Mike Hook]

Shawn

The conversion from kilograms to lbs is

1 pound = 453.6 grams

one ton 2000 pound = 907.2 kilograms

Mike

[Whirlydog]

Running on Jet fuel? I don't know and I have not heard of anyone who has tried using this engine in an aircraft, and I have done a few searches to find out if any one has, but no luck.. IMHO I don't think that would be a problem.

You could just add a can of HEAT (think that is the name) to the diesel. That is what truckers in cold climates do.

Shawn

[Mike Hook]

I had just wondered if someone ever has tired to JP fuel. On some of the web sites that has certified diesel aircraft engines they list that they can run on JP. Guess I have had a run of tractors jelling fuel here in the north, but the sound of a diesel coming over ought to be kewl.
Give me that John Deere Green.

Well at least it's a interesting subject.

[PTKay]

There is a lot going on in small TDI diesels for drones for military. They insist on multifuel capacity, or rather having
one fuel for all, helis, hummers, trucs, tanks, jets, drones etc.

And the fuel of choice is Jet A or similar.

So all the small modern diesel run on JetA
They run also on heating oil (checked by friends, is forbiden for tax reasons in Europe) etc.

A nice link for such drone diesel:

http://homepage.ruhr-uni-bochum.de/Rafael.Haeusler/schrick.shtml

Belive it or not, there are also diesel bikes:

http://www.peace65.freeserve.co.uk/Pictures/diesel.htm

So you can certainly find a light diesel engine....

PTKay

[PW_Plack]

The early VW diesels would run on vegetable oil in a pinch, but I'd expect the new injectors to be a little more finicky. Too bad we can't just write to VW and ask.

[Aussie_Paul]

One of our gyro flyers Down Under has what I think is a Toyota diesel that he runs on vegetable oil. John always seems to be around the fish and chip shops!!!! LOL

I will email him to come and tell his story. Aussie Paul.

[Whirlydog]

Wow :) I have never heard of any bikes using diesels and looking at the links you provided...Wow..

The more I think about it the more I think I will try using a diesel when I get to start building my dream gyro ( another couple of years yet).

Shawn 8)

[JohnEvans]

I understand that 50% of all new cars sold in Europe are diesels, the technology has come a long since Herr Diesel invented it. Funny how things cycle around isn't it?
Herr Diesel envisaged it running on vegetable oil, some of them even ran on coal dust! I run my small motorhome on discarded cooking oil from a restraunt. After filtering it costs me 2.5 cents a litre, that's for the filter and the elecricity to heat it. It takes a bit over an hour to filter 200 litres.
Some people treat the oil with caustic soda and methanol to make Biodiesel, a messy business that costs them about 35 cents a litre. This would probably have the advantage that the fuel would not be as likely to gel at lower temperatures. It would also appear to have a higher Cetane rating ( that's the opposite of an Octane rating) so would have less trouble with cold starts.
Below 20 degrees C my Toyota Coaster won't fire, so I have to use the Induction Air Heater. While cold the idle is a bit lumpy, but once warmed up I can't pick the difference powerwise, however it is claimed to have slightly less energy than diesel. At 2.5 cents a litre who cares if I have to use a whisker more?
For information on modern technology do a search on Toyota D4D. This uses electronically controlled extremely high pressure common fuel rail direct injection turbo intercooling to achieve a remarkably good power to weight ratio.
John Evans

[Mike Hook]

This is great specs for a small engine.
Years of production: xxxx through current

Type: 2.5 liter 4 cylinder D4-D diesel
Displacement: 2494
Borexstroke: 92x93.8mm
Compression ratio: 18.5 to 1

Horse Power: 75Kw @ 3600
Torque Output: 260 @ 1600

Notes:
I figure a 75 kw comes out to 100 hp, still have not found a engine weight.

Mike Hook

[PTKay]

What you present here is just an examlple.

Have a look at (about 100 examples of makes):

http://www.geocities.com/plane_diesel/search.htm

I am driving myself a C5 Citroen wit 2.2 l HDI diesel engine.

136 hp, at 4000 rpm, 315 Nm torque, at 2000 rpm.

For a plane or gyro no redrive needed.
The toque here is tremendous (like 200 hp, V6 gas engine).
More nice talk on torque:

http://www.geocities.com/plane_diesel/Torque.htm

Another argument is fuel consumption-endurance.
On diesel engines it's 40% higher with the same fuel tank.
(Diesel fuel is heaver and more energetic also).

The specific fuel consumption of the gasoline engine is low (186gr/hp/h) up to 3000 rpm. The efficiency of direct injection diesels is better, about 165 gr/hp/hr. By comparison, the consumption of a Rotax 912 (without mix control or turbo) varies between 215 and 295 gr/hp/h



1 Litre of gas/petrol = 0.72 kg 80 Ltrs = 58kg

1 Litre of diesel = 0.85 + 25 % better fuel economy kg x 2.2 =lbs



Somebody asked about VW:

VW 1.6 turbo diesel 90ft. lbs. The 1.9 TD produces over 140 ft. lbs of torque

1-Block cast iron 80 lbs
2-Head 35 lbs
3-Crank 38 lbs
4-Rods 6 lbs
5-Pistons 8 lbs
6-Oil Pump 5 lbs
7-Oil Pan & Valve Cover 8 lbs
8-Gasket Set & Bearings 3 lbs


Total Weight 183 lb

If you look for other weights see:

http://www.geocities.com/plane_diesel/weight.html

Happy deraemin of your diesel gyro... ;D

PTKay

[rehler]

Looks like the Mazada is the hands down winner!

160 hp and 170 pounds.

[JohnEvans]

Ken I think that figure for Mazada, ? misspelling of Mazda, is not directly comparable with the others quoted. Our 2 seater project using a 12A turbo rotary would be heavier than that when you count everything in.
John Evans

[Mike Hook]

One kewl thing about deisels is the fuel can be bought as off road fuel so it has about 42 cents a gallon of road tax taken off it. Figure it would end up around 80 cents a gallon. Surely there is some one here in the US using a diesel of some kind on a gyro.

Mike Hook

[PTKay]

still waiting for him to come up and speak.... :)

[Mike Hook]

If a person was to use a diesel without a redrive, what effect does that have on the thrust bearings in the motor. Is there modifications you need to do?? I have seen a site in fla that builds up vw's and they machine the crank case for heavier main thrust bearing.
I wonder is there a bracket made that bolts on the rear of the motor that would support the thrust and yet still allow for a direct drive. Lots of questions here but the more I read on the small diesels the more I see advantages to use them.

Mike Hook

[PTKay]

Mike,

you certainly need a modification, but I have no clue, how to do it.

Something bolted to the engine frame in place of the gear box with an extra bearing will be essential to protect the engine...

PTKay

[GyroRon]

News Flash!!!!!!!!! Reality Check!!!!!!!!!

A diesel Engine is too darn heavy and not enough power for it's weight to be worth the trouble of trying to convert to power a gyro.

If you DID decide to try to do one anyway, You would have to design it to use a huge diameter prop to take advantage of the diesel engines torque. you would also have to design in a beefy - ie heavy - engine mount that could take out some of the diesel engines vibrations which otherwise would tear the airframe apart over time.

Maybe over in Europe the gas prices verses Diesel would make this conversion worth the trouble, but here in the USA, I think it would be a waste of time.

Last point to make is that maybe some of you guys don't understand that a gyroplane will require a high amount of power in comparison to the aircrafts weight to fly and especially fly well. The best way to get performance out of a gyro is to loose weight. The diesel is un needed weight.

Saying all that I would love to see a successful conversion. ;D

[Mike Hook]

Thanks Ron

Yes I understand that vibiration is a concern but the new turbo diesels run as smooth as any gas engine. I also understand that weight is a great concern. It is just fun kicked the turbo around and compairing hp to weight. I guess what we need now is some figures on wieght to hp as on the VW, Sub, and 4 stroke rotaxs. It is just a interesting subject.

Some of the rpm on the turbo's go around 4,500 even thou the high tourqe is on a lower rpm.

lol Got your attention....

Thanks Mike

[KevinKing]

Here is the link (http://www.regtech.com/index.php?pg=8) to a site that claims their diesel rotary engine's weight to horsepower ratio is 3/4 lbs.

[mceagle]

ANOTHER NEWS FLASH

When factoring in the weight of a diesel engine you must include the weight of the HEAVY flywheel. The prop is no longer good enough to act as the flywheel, as it is on direct drive petrol engines.
The reputed long life of a diesel is now not a factor.
The fuel cost saving is no longer a consideration either because modern diesels use fuel mixture for throttle control (no throttle butterfly) and are only economical at lower throttle settings.

[Whirlydog]

For some people, diesels are totaly out of the question just as for some, any engine that is not a certified aircraft engine is out of the question.

The newer diesels are using a block that has more carbon and is layered, thus making it lighter, stronger, and has better heat distrubution. I forget what this process is called but I have read about it. As we have seen in this thread, some of the wieghts of the newer diesels, I think they are comparable to various car engines conversions and thus not a major factor either.

Vibrations? May or may not be a factor. Something to look into.

EXtra heavy flywheel? How much heavier? 5-10-20 LBS? The diesels would most likely be used in the heavier two seater gyros, designed for heavier wieght so shouldn't be that much of a factor. That is not to say you don't have to consider it, just something you have to be aware of when you compute the HP needed.

I think Diesels are a neat Idea and will give us a few more options when considering what engines we can use. If you don't like them, then fine. If you do, they are interesting to look into and may possibly prove to be another good alternative.

shawn

[GyroRon]

Shawn, what ever you build - diesel or gas - make it as light and as powerful as possible so that Wen you turn Downwind you can still have lots of punch left over to avoid from falling out of the sky! ;D ;D ;D J/K


seriously, when I first came into the rotorcraft forums, I had some ideas like you too about diesels and jet ski engines etc... etc... Then someone said something that changed my opinion on some of it. they said if it is so good then I ought to be the one to build the first and tell all the skeptics how it turned out. So then do any of you guys feel like building a diesel gyro????

[Whirlydog]

Ron, I agree I will need lots of power so I don't fall out of the sky. ;D I did get a good laugh ;D.

It will be 2-4 years before I can start building my gyro and I am serious looking at using a diesel. The 1.9 VW TDi may not be big enough but VW is putting a 2.5 TDI in thier new SUV's so maybe I could get a used one on those when I get ready.

Right now I am just looking at all the possiblities. :D If someone hasn't tried by then, then maybe I will be the first.

Shawn.

[JohnEvans]

::)There is no point in quoting the usual arguments against flying diesels, they are being reinvented and redeveloped. Already some of the car engines are no heavier than the petrol equivalents, turbos, intercoolers and elecronic control of the extremely high pressure injection gives them quite respectable power outputs. High levels of turbo boost are attainable because EGT does not rise with boost- the extra energy comes out as work!
Direct drive is possible because of the torque characteristics, so there goes the mass of the redrive!Less fuel needs to be carried for a particular range, so that's a bit more mass we can tolerate.
This is already happening in GA. A 1.7 litre diesel is STC for the Cessna 172, and is also available for PA 32 Pipers.( That's right, one point seven litre) This conversion is expensive, but will be paid for in fuel saving before the life of the engine is up.
The engine is a Mercedes modified by Thielert, it is certified! This one runs a redrive and uses turbine fuel.
In a previous post I mentioned Toyota D4D Technology, do a search and see for yourself. ;D

John Evans

[PTKay]

John,

thanks for bringing up again the arguments I used to stirr up this discussion. Of course I understand, that these engines are not so popular in US as in Europe or Japan.

But you are absolutely right. The modern HDI (High pressure Direct Injection) engines are in the meantime standard on all moder cars. Even in trucks, last Dodge RAM uses Cummins engine with HDI technology.
(By the way, D4D Toyota engine you mentioned gets as standard in the 2.0 l version 116 hp, but just by a software cange, "chip tuning", gets
150 hp, factory approved, that's far above Sub gas engines).

I read it somewhere "...if the progress in cars would be like in GA, we would have been still driving Ford T style vehicles..."

We've got to be open for progress, especially, that we are not, in the experimental class at least, so paralized like the GA by the FAA.

So I am still waiting for somebody putting a diesel in a gyro.

PTKay

[GyroRon]

PtKay, you said - WE'VE - got to be open to progress and etc.. etc... Look I don't think anyone is saying it can't be done, it is just that once you add in all the factors, to put a diesel engine on a gyro is not practical. But please try one out and let us know how it works.

[Mike Hook]

I agree PK there is so much new technology on small turbo deisels. I keep looking as specs on car and small truck units. the industrial units are too heavy with a cast block. I have had deisels here on the farm for years.
Have a perkins three cylinder in a track hoe that is sweet.

Some one will come up with one that will go for a gyo.
Have been reading the ausssie gyro site and some one there has not had much luck with one. But keep the faith.

Would be kewl to be the first one with a practial design.


Mike

[davreich]

Hi,
Lots of info on the VW diesel on www.tdiclub.com newsgroup. There's an alternate fuel section.

Aprox. KG to LB is 2.2 lbs = 1kg

Cool picture of the largest diesel engine. http://www.bath.ac.uk/~ccsshb/12cyl/

To translate any web sites or phrases. Use Altavista - Babble Fish ;D

[Neil Hintz]

Any serious Diesel would still need a reduction drive wouldn't it? How many light car diesels make full power at 2500 rpm?

Neil

[PTKay]

Neil,

Most of them have full torque at 1.700 to 2.000 and full power at
3.500 to 4.000.

For cruise speed 2.500 on the engine is most fuel saving and effective.

(My 2.2 HDI Citroen has transmission geared for 2.500 at 130 kph
and runs perfect, I seldom run it over 3.500 revs, no need for that
with torque of 315 Nm at 2.000 rpm)

Without redrive they will go sonic on full power, but try to use
smaller prop or ducted fan. (I am especially fond of the last solution,
has smaller diameter, gives CTL on standard keel boom, no high legs)

PTKay

[PTKay]

I found this on the australian forum, posted by Ken Watson:

"We are starting construction on a tandem gyro powered by a Peugeot 405srdt intercooled turbo engine with a 64" direct drive wooden prop, pitch governed to 3000rpm and cruise at 2650rpm. Engine specs:
Maximum power: 67.5kw (92hp)
Maximum torque: 196 - 211Nm @ 2250rpm
Engine weight: 120kg approx (still pulling parts off!)"

I think it's worth following, how the project developes.

PTKay

[Neil Hintz]

What HP does the Peugeot 405 deliver at 3000 rpm, what is max rpm? How efficent is a 64" prop?

Neil

[PTKay]

Neil,

I realy don't know the params of this 405 diesel.

Try to get Ken Watson to give some more information on his project.

I don't know how often he is posting, but you are closer to him
(at least geograficaly) so maybe you will be more sucessfull.

PTKay

[Sonnyj]

Hey mike Hook jp4 is a fine grade of kerosine and is lighter than diesel you can run it but it burns hotter so you will have to make adjustment to the air fuel ratio valve in the pump if equiped or you will burn the rings out in time

[Mike Hook]

Thank you sonnyj

[bogman]

Last Updated: Oct. 5, 2003
Racine - In an old airplane hangar once used by S.C. Johnson Co., a small group of engine designers is working day and night to develop diesel engines for airplanes, helicopters and military aerial drones.

DeltaHawk Inc.

We have been lean to the point of pain; lean to the point of probably sacrificing a year or two of
development.

- The business: One of a handful of companies worldwide developing diesel engines for aircraft and military drones.
People: Diane Doers, president and one of the company's owners and founders; Doug Doers, vice president, also an owner and founder. Four full-time employees, including Doug Doers; several part-time employees. Twenty-one shareholders, 16 of them in Wisconsin. Diane Doers works full time for IBM, where she's responsible for community relations in seven states. Doug Doers is a mechanical engineer with 35 years of experience as a pilot.
The plan: By April 2004, start delivery of diesel engines for experimental airplanes. Follow with engines for military drones, small airplanes like Cessnas, and other applications such as hovercrafts and boats.


At times, the work is stressful as DeltaHawk Inc. races against larger competitors that operate on a global scale.

The company has only four full-time employees. There are several part-time employees, and a cast of volunteers that includes an airline pilot who helps assemble prototype engines.

The operating budget is lean. When something breaks, the cost of replacing a part or a machine can slow the company's progress.

"And then it's personal," said company president Diane Doers. "These people are killing themselves working seven days a week. Tempers can get short because everybody is under pressure."

DeltaHawk doesn't have fancy offices in its 14,000-square-foot hangar at John H. Batten Airport. Tools, rather than artwork, adorn some of the walls.

But the small company recently leaped ahead of its competition when it made a 38-minute test flight with a diesel-powered airplane at an altitude of 5,500 feet and speeds up to 140 knots.

A DeltaHawk engine is being used in an experimental helicopter in the Australian Outback. Another customer is a military contractor testing diesels in unmanned aerial drones that can fly long distances without being detected by the enemy.

A rotary-wing drone is being developed by another company, with a DeltaHawk engine, that can be operated by remote control from hundreds of miles away.

"It's like something from a James Bond movie," said Carl Bumpurs, DeltaHawk's sales manager.

Closer to the present, DeltaHawk is designing powerful, lightweight diesels for recreational airplanes like those flown at the Experimental Aircraft Association show in Oshkosh.

The company is betting that some pilots will switch to diesels from gasoline engines that have powered planes for decades.

"Many people resent putting 1940s technology on the backs of their beautiful, sleek new airplanes," Doers said.

DeltaHawk and other diesel engine companies could benefit from what some say is the eventual demise of low-leadgasoline used in general aviation.

"There's been talk about this happening for at least 10 years, and so far it has been just talk," said Charles Eastlake, professor of aerospace engineering at Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University in Daytona Beach, Fla.

But some experts predict that aviation gasoline will be phased out, Eastlake said, as oil companies find it increasingly difficult to offer the specialized fuel for a relatively small market.

DeltaHawk's diesel engines burn a type of jet fuel that's readily available at airports throughout the world. The fuel is cheaper than aviation gasoline and, unlike that fuel, does not require special handling.

There's definitely a future for diesels in aviation, Eastlake said. "It's just difficult to say how big the future will be."

[PTKay]

Have a look on this:

http://www.wilksch.com

[barnstorm2]

Biodiesel may be used to fuel aeroplanes

http://www.anba.com.br/ingles/especial.php?id=252

[Georgi]

Mike,one ton has always been =1000 kilograms.
Georgi.

[Kevin_Fogleman]

Anything new? I've heard of a Mercedes 'SMART' diesel 82 hp, but very expensive.

Reading back over all these posts... would love to be the first to use diesel on a gyro!

K

[Cobra Doc]

My boss flew Tule River's diesel 182 and loved it. It smoked our stock 182 in every aspect, namely fuel consumption. They burned 9.2 gph on climb out and under 8 at cruise. His biggest comment was "no diesel noise". Thielert is using the Isuzu/GM pre-ignition technology: mo' power, less noise.
He is supposed the fly the Diamondstar DA-42 twin diesel very soon. I heard from the sales rep that during the delivery of his airplane on climb they burned 8.6 gph COMBINED! For a single that would be great, but this is a twin. Flying diesels are already starting to take over in Europe.

[Ga6riel]

think ive said it before, but these are the most impressive engines ive seen in a long while

http://www.zoche.de/

[Cobra Doc]

The Dynacam has some pretty good numbers. They just can't get it into any meaningful production.

[_MOL_]

Ohh, PTKay.
Have a Citroen C5 2,2 HDI too.
Did the chip tuning and added about 30 odd hp to the 136hp.
It now has 166hp at a little higher revs. (Don't remember the figure right now, but I can get hold of a torque diagram if anyone would like to see it)
And as you said, it is an approved tuning by the manufacture.
Ohh, and another neat benefit is that it runs a little leaner in lower revs so my fuel consumption went down a little with normal driving.
The Chip tuning guys tells me that I can get even more torque/hp than that if I like, but then we go further than what is legal - in cars anyway.
That chip was about 600 USD. Well worth it, as the C5 is a large and heavy car and really need the extra torque. (Compared to European standard cars anyway)

I would love to see Subaru go the HDI diesel way. In fact, wasn't there any rumour going that Subaru are testing a flat four HDI engine??

[PTKay]

Brian,

heard the rumour on Subaru too. ;)

I have already 156.ooo km on my C5, so probably too late for tunning,
it may not survive it. :)

I am still a true beliver in the diesel future in aviation.

I think, the breakthough, as usual, will be the military application.

Thielert Centurion 1.7 in Predator as one example.

The patrameters and characteristics of modern diesels are stunning.
The only problem is the diesel image in the US. In Europe you don't have to
persuade to anybody the advantages of HDI.

Another good news recently, SMA seems to be reviving their web page,
and hopefully also the production.

www.smaengines.com

PTKay

[_MOL_]

PTKay, I did the chip thing when my C5 had 115000 km without any problem.
And as it is a "legal" software update the engine will stand the extra torque.
As I said, its well worth it.