I picked up a bad habit.

[dabkb2]

Yesterday John aka All in and I flew John's plane up to El Mirage. Once we were at altitude John would let me follow along on the controls. It was a little bumpy and we had to push the nose down to maintain altitude. When I got in my gyro I did the same thing:puke:.

It only took 1 time for my training to take over and say WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING. Just thought I would give a little heads up that bad habits can creep in.

[willisbr]

Ever go flying all day then get in your truck and wonder when the nose wheel is going to start coming up? :typing:

[Passin' Thru]

Ever go flying all day then get in your truck and wonder when the nose wheel is going to start coming up? :typing:

:DA+ Quality!:D

[Tina]

Now you understand when I used to say, I always have to constantly remind myself what I am flying when I'm flying...;)

[Earthboundmisft]

Yesterday John aka All in and I flew John's plane up to El Mirage. Once we were at altitude John would let me take the plane. It was a little bumpy and I had to push the nose down to maintain altitude. When I got in my gyro I did the same thing:puke:.

It only took 1 time for my training to take over and say WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING. Just thought I would give a little heads up that bad habits can creep in.

Uhh, so. I push the nose down all the time in my whirly... And every other direction too... When I leave power in it's even more fun...

[M._Springer]

reminded me of a woman student we had years ago. After she soloed she drove home to the bay area. Next day she said that every time she approached a stop signal on the way home she found herself trying to pull the steering wheel back to flare.
Marion

[automan1223]

Those fixed wings will kill you every time....

[bopflyer]

After getting my helicopter licence some years back I went flying with a friend in his fixed wing, i had the controls and I have to say I have never seen him go such a pale white colour as when I started to pull back on the stick to flare when we on finals.

[All_In]

@Barry
Oh that explains several students we trained flaring and dragging their tail on the runway while flaring. I just thought they were stupid... Now I realize they may have been gyroplane pilots and forgot what they were flying?

Dave can fly FW and hold heading and altitude no worries there....

Good lesson here, FW's do fly differently.

Some of the differences I've observed:

Taxi:
FW = you only have to hold the aileron down in a crosswind, not much to it.

Gyro = rotor management REQUIRED the entire route and takes much more attention.


Takeoffs:
FW = Firewall it with full power and just wait for airspeed.

Gyro = engage prerotator with partial pressure, increase RPM slowly matching the power setting to your current rotor RPM and pressure on the prerotator until you have reached full rotor RPM and then apply full power and actually take off.

Once you are off the ground in an underpowered FW or flying down wind takeoff's you push the nose over to gain airspeed about the same.

Cruising:
FW = Negative G's no problem and lots of FUN. Hit turbulence and at 70% power or less you can jam the stick down to get back to your assigned altitude and actually pick up air speed.

Gyro:
NO NEGITIVE G's PERIOD! It's like having your parachute collapse over your head!
You move the stick much more gently or not at all (just let it fly through the turbulence) you use power for adjusting your altitude during cruise more than in a FW and keep the stick still [this is for cursing not climbing out as they are similar in that regard]

Landing:
They are about the same, except for the glide ratio 4 to 1 for a gyro and 10 to 1 for FW and you fly with some power on or dive trading altitude for airspeed because of the drag of the gyro compared to just gliding in with a FW if you got the altitude.

Flaring:
FW:
You flare to set your wheels down and slow the aircraft... then there is the very long ground roll.

Gyro:
Well we got a tail wheel and a parachute in the form of blades that will just stop you whenever you wish = Very cool!!!

There are others can you guys help describe them?

[StanFoster]

John- You have the basics down the differences between stuck wings and fling wings. Cant wait to see you fly. Boy is that going to be fun for you, and myself watching you!


Stan

[All_In]

I cannot wait either buddy, thank you for being such a big part of getting my wings unstuck!

BTW, I've got 50 to 75 hours+++ flying my not stuck FW aircraft as a fling wing.

Spins... I love spins and spin recovery's... So technically it is only the pilot who is stuck not the aircraft, they all can spin! HA.

PS:
The first Tomahawk I ever flew back from the factory in Vero beach Fl. serial #3.

I ask for and received permission form 3 towers including my home base at Brown field KSDM to enter the pattern high and spin down for my landing.
I told the tower I wanted to practice emergency spot landing by spinning down. Most would approve it back them.

Way fun... and the folks on the ground enjoyed it once they knew it was on purpose!

[karlbamforth]

The first Tomahawk I ever flew back from the factory in Vero beach Fl. serial #3.

I ask for and received permission form 3 towers including my home base at Brown field KSDM to enter the pattern high and spin down for my landing.
I told the tower I wanted to practice emergency spot landing by spinning down. Most would approve it back them.

Way fun... and the folks on the ground enjoyed it once they knew it was on purpose!

Have you ever looked over your shoulder when doing that John.

I love to spin too but after looking backwards one day (someone else in control) and seeing the fin and tailplane shaking violently left and right it put me off doing it in a Tomahawk.

No wonder you have to inspect those mounting brackets so often. :twitch:

[All_In]

@Karl

Yaw Mon, you 'B' right about that.

There were terrible head winds on that trip... it took 26 hours to ferry her to KSMD.

Tractors were passing us plowing fields on the way home.

Being a Piper dealer all of the planes I was spinning had less than 26 hours total time, so I never worried about it.

I do not spin old aircraft unless they are acrobatic and maintained by an AI I know.

PS:
Have you ever spun a Navajo?

[Roundwing]

Those with instrument ratings have probably done this.

Driving along in your car and go into a fog bank or reduced visibility and start looking down at your "instrument panel" to drive on instruments.:wacko:

[karlbamforth]

[QUOTE=All_In;417558 Have you ever spun a Navajo?[/QUOTE]

Nope not spun a Navajo, but was once in a single that refused to recover.

It took three attempts and the world was getting very big in the screen before it recovered.
That was a brown pants day I can tell you.

During the debrief we worked out that the guy in control wasn't used to the light controls and pulled too hard during the recovery forcing it to stall and spin repeatedly.

I understand a number of US military students were killed flying the same aircraft, I often wonder if they made the same mistake.

[ferranrosello]

Taking Off in a gyro has three phases:
Prerotation: What you have explained.
Ground roll: Once you are putting on all power you will have to hold the front nose a little bit high over the ground. This will mean to put the stick forward and forward synchronized with air speed.
Airborne Roll: Once you are flying, if you have made a god take off, your speed will be too low for a good climb. You will need to accelerate flying a horizontal path over the runway until getting a good climbing speed.
The stick should be moved gently in both, FW and gyros. It is absolutely true that negative g’s are forbidden. It is not less true than positive g’s below 1g and closed to 0g are forbidden too. Anyway, this does not mean that you cannot move your stick normally. Nothing will happen if you move your stick forward. The problem will arise only if you move your stick forward so roughly than you get a near 0g situation.
If you are flying in turbulence the only thing you have to do is maintain your attitude. Use the stick to do so (forward, rear or laterally, as necessary). But use the stick normally, too hardly. A rotor has a much better performance and control capability than a FW in turbulence and low speeds. The main problem is when the pilot gets nervous and starts to over control.
The glide ratio for a gyro is not a fixed value. It depends on the air speed. I think that nearly all approaches should be flown without power. It is a big mistake to rely in some power for the approach... for several reasons:
1st.- The need to get very used to power off approaches and landings in case of an engine failure.
2nd.- To get a deep and sane approach will help to avoid problems during the landing phase. A lot of accidents in landings occur because pilots approaching relying on some power get a very shallow path. Then they not feel the need of a good and healthy flare in the touchdown and have the tendency to land on three wheels. This is very bad, because the landing speed is too fast and the nose wheel can roll over the gyro easily.
I understand that seems much more comfortable the shallower relying on power approach, and that someone can be scared for the deep approach path. Mainly this is going to happen to pilots used to fly FW. Please. If this is the case take some lessons with a good gyrocopter instructor. Nobody should be flying gyrocopters if he doesn’t feel confident enough to perform approaches without power on a regular basis.

[ckurz7000]

Hola Ferran,

I agree with you on all points. Of course it is dangerous to unload the rotor. But that doesn't mean that you can't move the stick forward. It all depends on how you do it.

Personally, I like to come in with sufficient altitude on approach to landing that I can reduce the throttle to idle way before I even start to flare. Making something like a 3 degree ILS approach in a gyro is unsafe (too low too far out), gets neighbors aggravated and makes for tendentially faster and unsafer landings as well.

But just to be sure: there is a big difference in an approach with the engine at idle and one where it is stopped completely. Idle rpm on Rotax engines is somewhere between 1600 and 2000 rpm. More like 1800-2000 when you're up in the air. That's still a fair amount of thrust. The glide angle with a quiet engine is again significantly steeper than the ones encountered with an idling prop. Don't deprive yourself of this experience!

-- Chris.

[ferranrosello]

Chris, the effect of an idling engine in the approach angle depends on the engine idle rpm.

I've found that if the idle setting is lower than 2000 rpm the idling engine not only doesn't push the aircraft in the approach, but also has a notable braking action (at least in Elas that have a pretty big propeller).

The main reason for this is because some energy (power) is taken from the passing air to accelerate the propeller. Depending on the idle rpm the power taken for this is higher than the static propeller drag...

When idle rpm are above 2000 rpm, then the feeling is that the engine is pushing you in the approach.

But if the engine is in normal idling settings there is not a big difference. The difference can be easily overcome by a faster airspeed.

And this, the airspeed, is a great tool (that few pilots are using) to enlarge or to shorten the glide path. The only thing is that you need to have the minimum safe approach speed for your gyro just before touchdown. The airspeed is the only energy you have to land a gyrocopter. If you run out of speed you will experience a “hard landing”. Air speed is everything. And the good flying relies on smart airspeed management.
And the best way to master it is by lots of practice with an idling engine (much more secure and of little interference of what really matters: learning to control the glide path by airspeed management).

Ferràn

[scott heger]

In a public airport landing, I always stay high enough that I can glide once the throttle is reduced. Their is really no reason to make a shallow approach to a airport that has landing hazards present. More than one gyro pilot I know has had the engine cough and stop once throttle is reduced. If you are at a low altitude, not much in the way of time or options. Until you have been there, you don't know how fast things start to happen..... Until I know I have the landing via glide, I assume I am going to be short and have to think about "plan B".

Scott Heger, laguna Niguel,Ca N86SH

[dabkb2]

In a public airport landing, I always stay high enough that I can glide once the throttle is reduced. Their is really no reason to make a shallow approach to a airport that has landing hazards present. More than one gyro pilot I know has had the engine cough and stop once throttle is reduced. If you are at a low altitude, not much in the way of time or options. Until you have been there, you don't know how fast things start to happen..... Until I know I have the landing via glide, I assume I am going to be short and have to think about "plan B".

Scott Heger, laguna Niguel,Ca N86SH

Hey Scott, I'm sorry you can't make the flyinn this year and I agree, even at El Mirage there is no reason to make a shallow approach. I have had 2 engine outs and watched enough others that it has changed some of my flying habits. I try and drop from 150' to 10' with as much rotor energy as possible, I think it is just good flying.