Mentone Airport - Gary thread continued [Archive]

GyroRon

11-18-2004, 03:39 AM

MJ,

I am recovering from an operation myself. I don't know who called you a liar but I hope you are not referring to me as that was never my intent. I am trying to aquire 'the papers' because Jamie says he will be statisfied once he understands the relationship between the PRA and PRA Mentone. I know this has been spelled out here for him on different threads several times but my hope is that something on offical letterhead might help.

Personally, I was and am happy with the discription of how and why things were setup when Tom M posted it then when Ron posted Gary's letter then again when Tim Blackwell joined the board and posted, when you posted your findings on this thread and finally again when Tex A posted the answers.

I know anyone with a brain would think that me doing this again would just get the same results from Jamie/Maxie but I figgured it would be worth a try.

Everything I have researched so far indicates that eveything is setup according to IN state law and must be done so to maintain our non-profit status.

Crazy that anything like this has gone so far.
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Tim??????

The papers that MJ received, if they are the same papers that Jamie and I received from PRA, Do show that each organization is set up Legally and correctly. The paper ('s) we have continue to ask for is the one that shows the Legal relationship between the two. You seemed to understand it very well when you posted you would ask for a copy of the papers that show this. We (Jamie and I) do realize that both are set up properly, I believe they just stand alone,as Don has described in earlier post. If Don's description is what your referring to, Jamie fully understands that and I think agrees with Don as I do. Trust me!!! There is nothing I would love more than to have you prove Don wrong. This will also prove Jamie and I wrong. It's just that no one seems to have any paperwork joining the two at the hip or a copy of the PRA Mentone Bylaws. I would love to see that too.

The description that Tom gave sounds good but is lacking in fact. First he says it is an insult that you even ask for anything in writing. I still fail to see his stand on that. Even God left us with a written word to touch, feel and read to answer our questions and concerns. I don't think anyone thinks it an insult to God to ask for verification in the Bible. So unless Gary is of a much higher authority, there should be no problem asking for verification. Another, is his point that he does not have a receipt for his TV, and other items in his home because there is not question who they belong too. This is correct of course. But I would bet my river lot in Waycross, that I have the deed to, that he has a deed to the house these items are in. One other, That Glenn paid for the Fire Works show. As far as I know he did. Whether it was out of his own pocket as indicated or by donations collected for that very purpose. I do know but from what I have been told they were spectacular. How ever, I have talked recently with a current Board Member that was not happy at all that PRA could spend $2,000.00 on a fire works show, but not have the money to pay for a good Web site. So who knows?

A couple of things that just keep me wanting to know the answer is, I over heard Gary tell Dave Prater after one of the Board meetings that he would not step down from President of the PRA Mentone Board even if he was not re-elected President of the PRA Board. Gary also stated in a Board meeting, that when the Airport is paid off, PRA would still have to pay $1000.00 rent to PRA Mentone. He has since recanted that statement and at the last PRA Board meeting I attended assured the Board at that time PRA would not have to pay rent once the Airport is paid off. So you see why I feel like this paper work is needed if it does not exist already, and you got to admit, after all of this and no paper work yet. I think it is not there to be had. But once again I truly hope you can prove us wrong, and if not, help in correcting the problem.

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#422 Today, 12:45 AM
KenSandyEggo
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Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: San Diego
Posts: 1,310

"A couple of things that just keep me wanting to know the answer is, I over heard Gary tell Dave Prater after one of the Board meetings that he would not step down from President of the PRA Mentone Board even if he was not re-elected President of the PRA Board."

This just proves that a private group of individuals has purchased an airport with our money and wants to keep it for themselves in their names and no one is going to stop them. What kind of bull**** is this? How much more plain can this be? If Gary is voted out, Gary and his chosen friends still own the airport, no matter what the vote of the members is. Does this still possibly sound proper to anyone? Stinkier by the minute.
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#423 Today, 01:22 AM
scott heger
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Southern California
Posts: 141

My question is:
If the airport was sold tomorrow, what paperwork is in place to assure that money spent by PRA is going back to the PRA? Or where is the money going to go upon a sale?

I don't think that their is much doubt that PRA Mentone is a non profit. But it seems that "our" PRA dues helped finance the purchase, runway repaving, and ongoing expenses by paying rent. Some kind of document showing that a orderly transfer of funds, and where it would all go would put this to bed. Hopefully this document was written before last week. I understand that some people would like this to all go away. A true leader would not be insulted, but just provide the "proof". The longer this does not happen, the more it looks like their is something to hide. It seems some longtime PRA members, and ex-board members still have unanswered questions. Why the continuing delay?

Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel, Ca N86SH
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posts taken from the quite large Gary thread...

PRA

11-18-2004, 05:46 AM

Ken, Scott,
I keep reading where you and others refer to "our dues" payed for the purchase, paving of runway, and up keep of the Mentone Airport. I'll bet you don't have a qlue where the monies have come from.
There is a plaque on the wall here at Mentone with over 100 names of people who have donated, repeatedly, substancial amounts to the PRA Mentone Inc Fund since the purchase of the airport in May of 1995. Which, by the way, not all donations have been from just P.R.A. members. The downpayment was put up by certain P.R.A. members until the board of P.R.A. voted to purchase the airport and the donations came in.
Over the years all kinds of donations, both money and time, keep coming in for the improvements and up keep done at the airport.
All that I see some part of your membeship dues going for is rent to Mentone Inc, for the use of the building that the P.R.A. office operates from. Which by the way, membership dues paid rent for office space long before moving to Mentone.

As to your statement, Scott.

"Some kind of document showing that an orderly transfer of funds, and where it would all go would put this to bed."

I'd like to see that document also, before my husband and I donate anymore time and money to Mentone Inc.

So anyway, how many of you people posting here, do you think, have your names listed on this plaque here at Mentone?

Your ever so disgruntled office manager,
Pam Bundy

Rotornut

11-18-2004, 06:23 AM

Well I know my name is not up there. MJ :)

KenSandyEggo

11-18-2004, 09:34 AM

Pam, I seriously doubt that those donations come anywhere near $200,000. Even with that input, the PRA board has come out asking us to recruit more members and is raising the dues 5 bucks. I believe this is being done because we are cash-short, as evidenced by the lack-luster website, reduction in issues of the magazine and talk of more black & white and less color pages. It is no secret that our $1,000 rent payment to PRA Mentone is used to make the mortgage payments on the airport. What's the big deal about lending the PRA 50 thousand for a short while until the money could be transferred from the PRA funds? It was a sure thing with no risk, as the boards knew the money was there and it was going to be paid back to whomever put up the 50 thou to hold the airport until the paperwork was finished. It's made to sound as they did something heroic, risky and self-sacrificing by fronting the money until the PRA check could be written. You say that we have no idea of how much was donated by others. Why isn't it published then? That's a part of the corporation's income and legally, should be published.

I think it's boiling down to this. Gary and whomever decided to buy the airport with no input from the members to begin with. Whether it was a good deal or not, I don't think he had a right to do this, at least morally. A refundable deposit could have been arranged for a month or so, so that at least some feed-back could have been acquired from at least some of the members who sent in this money over the years. I doubt that there were too many citizens of the Mentone Public Community waiting in line to snap up an airport.

Let's say that this would have been too much work and couldn't be done. So the deal proceeds. The bottom line is that 50 thousand of PRA's money is given to the mortgage holder as a down payment and $1,000 per month payments are agreed upon to be paid by the members of PRA. At this point or near this point, there is no PRA Mentone. Gary decides to form a new board, hand-pick the rest of the board members, and place title of the airport in his and/or the remaining board's name. Where did he acquire the authority to do this? He acquired it by proceeding surreptitiously, so no one except a close circle of friends would be aware of it. Why wasn't it done out in the open with the stated reason of protecting PRA from liability? Why was the existence of PRA Mentone kept so secretive all these years? Why was there a several year fight necessary to bring this information into the open? Why did PRA Mentone resist admitting PRA Mentone existed even to PRA board members? Because he/they knew it was ridiculous on its face and wouldn't fly with anyone with some common sense.

The alleged reasoning and logic of protecting the members from all 4,000+ of us getting sued is clearly ludicrous. The more it's repeated, the more insulted all the PRA member's intelligence should be. PRA is a corporation and therefore only the assets of PRA, Inc. would be at risk in an action. The concern expressed is that if there is an accident at Mentone, PRA would be protected from liability. If there is an accident, PRA Mentone would be sued and if the action were successful, the plaintiff would most likely take title to the airport property, exactly the same as if PRA, Inc. owned the property. The justification to prevent 4,000 of us from getting sued is ridiculous on its face. I have never seen or heard of 4,000 defendants sitting in a court room because of negligence committed by the officers of the corporation, and besides, there is inexpensive, readily available insurance to protect corporate board members from lawsuits. And as I said, only the assets of a corporation are at risk in a lawsuit, not my '71 Beetle or Ron's garden tractors.

Gary's overheard statement that if he is not re-elected, he is still going to remain president of the PRA Mentone board should be very disturbing to anyone with the least bit of logic and intelligence. In other words, he will remain the owner of the Mentone Airport, and as it is set up right now, there is nothing we can do about it. If Gary get's upset because he is not re-elected, there is absolutely nothing stopping him and whomever's name is on the title to sell the property and putting the moneys in their pockets. Pooh-poohing this issue by saying, "Oh, he would never do that" is so far from the point as to be invisible. Maybe he wouldn't, but the risk of that possibility should not exist and should have never existed in the first place.

The idea of the president of a board sitting on another board that votes money to be transferred is the clearest example I have ever seen of a conflict of interest. I ask someone for money, and I'm the one that approves it. Does that sound logical to anyone? At the most, it may be borderline legal (I doubt it), but ethically it clearly is not.

Gary's stone-walling on this topic for years, until forced into the open makes his motives clearly suspect. I question his statement that the PRA will continue to pay $1,000 per month after the mortgage is paid off, even though he later reneged. I question his original motivation and intent. That's "property-owner-profit-motivated" talk. He reneged after he realized this setup would be out in the open, and again wouldn't fly. It would have worked forever if all this hadn't been brought into the sunshine by the difficult efforts of Maxie and Jamie etal. "Why are we still making a mortgage payment when the mortgage is paid off?," would be the question tumbling from a lot of lips. Clearly, the office is not worth $1,000 per month in rent. This money would have been a secret gift to Gary to legally do what he wanted with it. Buy stuff for the airport, or buy himself a Hummer...whatever he chose. That possibility should not exist in even a half-assed run organization somewhere. It can't be assumed that a person handling substantial amounts of organizational moneys will "probably" do the right thing, unless you're a gullible fool and never read a newspaper or watched the news.

Ladies and gentlemen of the PRA, we can be left holding the bag for the airport we paid for. A private entity (PRA Mentone) was secretly formed and stayed secret for many years, took moneys from the PRA, bought a piece of property, put it in their name as rightful owners, (even though they proclaimed publicly and in print that it was PRA's property), took more money from the PRA to repave the airstrip and more money yet to make the mortgage payments. What person with half a brain would accept a deal as this in a home purchase? That's not even mentioninhg the $40 thousand dollars that was negligently misplaced and lost. Yes, I said negligently. The PRA board has a fiduciary duty to look after the assets of the corporation and to make sure this type of incident never occurs. To not follow up on the loss through legal channels to the best of their abilities is also repugnant to me. In a larger, well-run for-profit company, the negligent corporate officer(s) would most likely have been sued by the share-holders for recovery of the negligently lost money and failure to perform their fiduciary duties.....most likely successfully.

There are unexplained motives here, folks. Secret motives that should not be allowed to be kept in the dark and that we should be protected from. As almost every prosecutor or defendant's attorney if they're feeling confident, in a jury trial announces during their closing arguments, "Ladies and gentlemen, all I'm asking of you, after hearing what was presented to you, is one thing and one thing only. That is to use your COMMON SENSE. That's all.....one thing, just use your God-given COMMON SENSE."

Dean_Dolph

11-18-2004, 10:26 AM

…………unless you're a gullible fool ………. Ken, as a kid, did you ever play the game where you set in a circle with others and then whispered a message in the ear of the one next to you and that person in turn did the same until the message had been passed around to the last person. The last person then repeated what he/she heard. If you didn't then you missed some hilarious times! What I'm driving at is that there has been a bunch of stuff said here that has been passed on by others that may or may not have their facts straight or unintentionally misquoted someone. You can always choose who you want to believe, I guess. ……………Secret motives that should not be allowed to be kept in the dark…………. I agree that there may be other motives but they may not all be coming out of Mentone, did you ever think about that. Now I'm getting as paranoid as you! Where's my pills?!!

KenSandyEggo

11-18-2004, 10:33 AM

Dean, that's why we should rely only on the written word to protect us.....something that seems to be missing here. That's all that was asked for, a written document so that we wouldn't or couldn't be sold up (or is it down?) the river if someone chose to. Something that is easily possible at this time. I don't think that there's any doubt that Gary and/or his friend's own the property on paper. That's what they set out to do. I don't think that there's any doubt that we the members were told, including in print that we owned the airport. We absolutely know that we paid for it, the repaving and the "lost" 40K.

To this day, do we really know whose name(s) are actually on the title of the property? We don't know whether just Gary's name is on it or whether any of the other PRA Mentone member's name are on it. Just because they are on the board, doesn't necessarily mean they share legal ownership. That would be an interesting piece of paper to see. We really don't know who exactly owns the airport except that it isn't us, the ones who paid for it.

Where's the paranoia in my post? I think I layed it out pretty clear and asked questions that are on a lot of member's minds. A situation like this never should have been allowed, but we had no control over it because it was done sneakily and under the table to keep us from knowing about it. I consider that fact.

barnstorm2

11-18-2004, 11:12 AM

Ken, PRA owns the airport. Please see MJ's post when she had her accountant audit the paperwork.. As far as 'who said what said' that could go on forever on all parts, lets try and keep this to the facts, more manageable that way.

PRA

11-18-2004, 12:39 PM

Ken,
It's obvious to me that you know nothing of what you write. I see you writing all kinds of accusations about Gary and other board members but you are the "gullible fool" here. You didn't even become a member of P.R.A. until May 1997. As a matter of fact, others that have been having a problem with all of this weren't P.R.A. members yet either. All this took place in 1995, yet you claim it all took place secretively. Well if you can get your hands on the June/July, August and September 1995 issues of Rotorcraft and read through them, as well as Gary's inside cover pages of each issue, you will see just how secretive this all was.
Be sure and get back with me once you have done your reading.
Pam

GyroRon

11-18-2004, 12:53 PM

guys, reading Pams first post in this thread, it sounds like she is not the bad guy here! sounds like she wants the same thing that this whole discussion was started for.... for there to be a legal paperwork tie between the two inc's.

I don't think Maxie or Jamie has a Axe to grind, I don't think Gary is out to screw us, And I don't think there is some secret master plan to steal the airport. I DO think that there is a massive lack of communication between the board and the members, and I DO think like Jamie and Maxie that there needs to be only one board of directors for both.

That is the point of the whole thing, not to sling mud, not to dig up every little gripe about the PRA, not to dirty Garys good name or anyone else on the board. The goal is to make the PRA and PRA mentone one compnay with one set of board members. Then the airport is ours without any doubts.

I do agree with Ken, there is no reason to keep them separate. If someone get's hurt at the airport let the insurance pay for it, or else they sue and win a airport. as long as the airport is the PRAs main asset then the elected officers of the PRA need to be the ones overseeing the way the airport is run and how it's business is handled. As it sits right now, only one or two of the ELECTED board members has any say so in matters concerning the airport. I believe all the people I voted for should be able to partake in the decisions needed concerning the airport. If it a matter of needed local people to be on the board to help with leaky pipes at the airport, then form a airport task group that can help out with those issues. If the home of PRA was in my backyard I would be glad to have my name on the list of people to call in a local emergency.

PRA

11-18-2004, 01:29 PM

There already is an airport task group. For the last seven years their names consisted of Glenn and Pam Bundy. This summer we recruited Tim Blackwell, Don Shoebridge, Brian Sherwood and his daughters.
Are there any other takers?
--Pam

barnstorm2

11-18-2004, 02:26 PM

Ron, I'll bet you have to have 2 boards or the state of IN will get pissed.

Brian Jackson

11-18-2004, 03:08 PM

...
Your ever so disgruntled office manager,
Pam Bundy
Pam,
I'm a new member, having met you and Glenn at the Mentone 04 convention. I just wanted to say the work you guys do there is appreciated. I've pretty much stayed away from this thread, but I think credit should be given where due. By the way, we never hear about "gruntled" employees :D

Be well, and give my best to Glenn.

Respectfully,
Brian Jackson

P.S., the PRA site is coming along nicely. Hope to have a rough draft webbed by the weekend! Just taking longer than I thought, but I hope everyone appreciates the quality.

KenSandyEggo

11-18-2004, 04:52 PM

Well, as I can see from the apologist's posts, none of the issues have been addressed or answered, as usual. Where is the piece of paper known as a title or deed that has PRA, Inc. on it? Everyone has said that it says PRA Mentone, Inc. That is NOT the PRA. That is a self-appointed person who had no right to place the airport in his or anyone else's name. The double-speak here is insane.

Who said anything about people not working hard, when they joined, donating money and getting a plaque on the wall. Pam, am I full of it when I say the Mentone board was formed in secret? Am I full of it when I say the PRA members paid for it and yet it is in Gary's and whomever else's name that he decided on? I'd say that there is a clear lack of knowledge in Mentone about ethics, secrets, stubbornly hanging on to secrets that should have been in the open, and the proper way a corporation is run. I'm still waiting to have explained how a self-appointed clique of people can take money from another organization without anyone's authority except their own, buy an airport and put it in their name...all without telling anyone of course, until a crow-bar was put in place to pry the information out.

"Ken, PRA owns the airport." Then it should be an extremely simple matter to obtain a copy of the deed and show it to us and put this whole thing to bed, shouldn't it? After how many years, it still hasn't been done. I can't fathom any other reason than someone is trying to hide something. Why else? All anyone has seen are 2 separate incorporation papers. How can anyone take that as proof of anything regarding the airport? Many of you are sheepishly pulling the wool over your own eyes. By the way, since the airport is still not paid for, anyone joining the PRA up until that last dollar is paid off has the right to question where and how his dues are spent. I don't have a damn more lick of say-so in the EAA or AOPA than anyone that joined after me. More smoke and B.S. and avoiding the difficult questions. I know, I know...they're working on it...something that should have been worked on the day BEFORE the deposit was made on the property, not afterwards. Who caused this can-of-worms with their secretiveness, surreptitious Mentone board and refusal to produce a simple piece of paper in order to prove what they said by word and print is true. Now it's the fault of those asking the questions in order to protect all the mis-management, and we're supposed to prove that what they said is true when they refuse to and the evidence points otherwise? C-O-M-M-O-N S-E-N-S-E....wherefore art thou?

PRA

11-18-2004, 05:06 PM

Ken,
I don't really follow most of what you're saying. But then again, I don't think you really do either.
Good night.
--Pam

Heron

11-18-2004, 05:36 PM

Another stupid question from my cyber blabber . . .
Does PRA have any equity on this property and can use it to finance another just like it?
Ken you are crystal clear on your assertions.
Now lets buy an airport in Florida and have all year flying and Bensen Days and a gyro lab and . . . .can we?
Heron

Jerseywing

11-18-2004, 06:25 PM

Heron,
Only if they have plastic flamingos and an alligator show :-)

Mike

Brian Jackson

11-18-2004, 06:38 PM

Well, as I can see from the apologist's posts, none of the issues have been addressed or answered, as usual.
Ken,
I'm guessing the "apologist" you mentioned is me, based on my comment to Ms. Bundy. If not, please disregard the following. But if so, please continue.

I'm not an "apologist", just a diplomat. Everyone involved in the PRA, or for that matter, aviation in general have a common interest. I won't bore everyone with that "common goal" lecture, but you get the idea.

The PRA is not EAA, or AA, or Triple-A or anything else. :D We're POPULAR ROTORCRAFT ASSOCIATION. To be taken seriously amongst aviation's decision makers will require focus of thought. All I see is a civil war. From my end nobody gives a **** about anybody else, especially another gyro pilot.

We know that's not true. But damn it it sure sounds like it. We've divided "sides" that I guarantee dissolve when tragedy strikes one of our own. This arguement reminds me of paternal brothers "duking it out".

I'll undoubtedly take heat for this because I, pardon my colorful English, do NOT give a f*ck. I'm true to myself only. Undoubtedly I'll continue reading this thread to gauge what others think, as most of us would.

The bigger picture is the question why this "problem" persists. If it's a matter of webbing some documents, I'll do it by tomorrow. Everyone will have equal access to the same legal info.

It ain't about taking sides. Talk about a black mark against PRA... I'm not speaking directly ant anyone. But sometimes a fresh pair of eyes can speak volumes.

If I can be of help or service let me know. My info is on the RotaryForum DB. There will be a resolution in our near future. I'm certainly nobody important. But lets aim for something constructive. The smallest idea breeds great thoughts.

Humbly,
Brian Jackson

KenSandyEggo

11-18-2004, 07:14 PM

No Brian, it wasn't aimed at anyone in particular, except those that are unwilling to accept facts and those that have them who are unwilling to share them. You are important. Everyone is.

"From my end nobody gives a **** about anybody else........,"

I would say that the main proponents of this concept are Gary Goldsberry, the PRA Mentone Board and those others that sit on their hands and keep their mouths shut when so many are begging for an answer to settle this. It could be done so simply if things were actually as proclaimed. They don't appear to be. First it's loudly proclaimed that the PRA is the owner of the airport. Gary is even quoted in the mag. A couple board members, maybe feeling uneasy, ask for a copy of the deed. None forthcomes for years and they resign in disgust. When the heat gets turned up here, it is proclaimed..."Who the hell you think you are? You expect to own an airport for $35 per year? Well you don't own it. Be happy with your magazine. The PRA has nothing to do with the airport. PRA Mentone owns it." (paraphrased).

Someone says to show us the relationship between the 2 boards then, and some start asking why PRA Mentone owns it, who were not elected by anyone. It doesn't seem to make sense. Oh-oh. O.K., PRA owns it once again. We saw 2 sets of incorporation papers, as if that shows anything except that there are at least 2 corporations in Indiana. Which is it? It's changed 3 times now. It would take Gary about 30 whole minutes of his time to stop at the bank, ask for a copy of the deed, if he doesn't already have one, give it to someone to scan and post here. To use a common vernacular....."What's so f*****g difficult about this?

What are "they" working on with accountants and lawyers if everything is in order? What are they "straightening out" that they say is going to take months? GET A COPY OF THE DAMN DEED AND POST THE PERTINENT PAGE HERE! Is that asking for the moon? We are not talking about someone's private property here. We are asking about something that we all have paid for to some degree.

KenSandyEggo

11-18-2004, 07:31 PM

Right, Pam. It's much easier to close one's eyes to the obvious. Try reading it again. It's pretty clear. Isn't there a copy of the deed in the PRA office? If there is, maybe you could post it and be the hero of the day and end all this. Or do you think the actual ownership of the airport should continue to be held back from everyone? What is wrong with people who sent in money to buy the airport knowing who actually got their name onto the deed? This is getting simpler and simpler. If PRA Mentone refuses to divulge the ownership, as they have for years, and if everything is as the latest Proclamation out of Mentone that the PRA owns the airport says, I and many others want to see that the PRA owns the airport. One piece of paper would call a halt to what has to be some lies. "PRA owns the airport....PRA does NOT own the airport.....PRA owns the airport." Who's not telling the truth? Who is hiding the truth and why?

KenSandyEggo

11-18-2004, 07:40 PM

I'll go for that Heron. Collect 50 thou for a down payment from as many as you can and get them to make the monthly mortgage payments and pay for the upkeep and any repaving that may need to be done. It should come close to 200 thousand. I'll take the money to the bank and put the airport in my name on the deed, but we'll tell them that they own it and keep it a little secret for as long as we can, even if we have to do battle with some nosy busy-bodies that will insist on wanting to know the truth........O.K.?

Can I make it any more clear? Anyone in their right mind go along with this deal? If you say yes to the garbage in Mentone, you should have no trouble seeing my deal as perfectly moral, safe, legal and legitimate. Is anyone unstable enough to read my deal with Heron and say that there is nothing wrong with it? Can anyone say that it is ethical and non-problematical? Am I doing the "right thing" to all those that gave Heron their hard-earned money? Are they getting what they were told or am I not telling them the truth? I'm lying......right? Can anyone dispute that?

thirdy8special

11-18-2004, 07:46 PM

Can't somebody call up the tax appraiser's office or court house and get them to send a copy of the deed? Won't somebody who lives within an hour or two of Mentone(or county seat) go by there and get a copy from the dear old lady who works in the court house? It'll be the best $10 ever spent. I understand the questions of Ken, Maxie, and others and visiting/calling the courthouse should take care of this.
Gary

scott heger

11-18-2004, 11:17 PM

Well here is some info...... from Kosciusko County Indiana
Parcel ID: 015-024-002.AAA
Section Plat: 000.000
Routing Number: 015-024-002.AAA
Neighborhood: 1504000
Property Address: 12296 W 600 S
MENTONE, 46539
Property Owner: PRA MENTONE INC

PO BOX 68
MENTONE , IN 46539
Legal Description: 15-24-2.AAA
PT SE 10-31-4
39.40A

Acreage: 39.400
Property Class: Com Other commercial structure

Property Record Card for 015-024-002.AAA.

Occupancy: Mhome Family Rooms: 0
Attic: None Heating: Central Warm Air
Story Height: 1.0 Full Baths: 2; 6-Fixt.
Basement: 0 Half Baths: 0; 0-Fixt.
Roof: Kitchen Sinks: 1; 1-Fixt.
Finished Rooms: 7 Water Heaters: 1; 1-Fixt.
Bed Rooms: 3 Extra Fixtures: 0
Total Fixtures: 8
Topology: Utilities:

Seems like the airport has gone up almost 3 times in value in the last few years.......Open the below Word document to see for yourself. I have not heard anyone else "share" that little fact. It would be easy to get a loan and payback PRA all its money now......Seems like PRA Mentone is doing quite well, unlike the PRA.

Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel, Ca N86SH

KenSandyEggo

11-18-2004, 11:52 PM

Geez, Scott. You're in California and you managed to get all that info from Indiana? Seems that some in Indiana can't find their way to the bank or the County Recorder's Office to show who "PRA Mentone" is, and thus the real owners of the property. If this ain't a crock of **** if I ever saw one. What! PRA Mentone should get an equity loan and pay PRA back? What for? They got it for free with no strings attached. Why change a good thing now?

"PRA is a worldwide organization with members in over 80 countries and with headquarters at Mentone, Indiana, USA at the PRA Mentone Airport, an airport owned by the Popular Rotorcraft Association."

This is from the PRA website. If PRA owns it, how come PRA doesn't own it? PRA Mentone owns it. They weren't chosen by PRA to do so. There was absolutely no legitimate reason to form PRA Mentone and have them hi-jack the airport and put the ownership in their name.....all something that was done sneakily and covertly.

Here's another take on the situation that was E-mailed to me. Don't blast me about it, because I didn't write it, I'm just quoting a very knowledgeable person's point of view.

"It's just a matter of time whether GG and his cronies can escape prosecution for malfeasance at minimum, or, more likely, misappropriation of corporate resources for personal enrichment."

scott heger

11-19-2004, 12:12 AM

Yeah Ken,it took me all of 10 minutes to find it on the internet. The property was purchased from Robert J Clupper on 5-16-95 for about $70,000 if I read the records correctly( I am not sure, help me out longtime members). My guess is that the property is worth at least $500,000 based on the county appraiser being a little low in value. That means a great deal of (paper)money has been made with this purchase. This is not just a few bucks we are talking about here folks.

Scott heger, Laguna Niguel, Ca N86SH

KenSandyEggo

11-19-2004, 12:26 AM

Scott, I forgot. I can't make it tomorrow to Corona. Too much "stuff" to do.

jamiebodie

11-19-2004, 03:02 AM

Tim wrote:

Ken, PRA owns the airport. Please see MJ's post when she had her accountant audit the paperwork.. As far as 'who said what said' that could go on forever on all parts, lets try and keep this to the facts, more manageable that way.

Tim the fact that you think this statment is correct is exactly why you/we need to see the paperwork. BTW, without question your above statement is incorrect. Once you get the paperwork please refer to my question for MJ to post to her accountant, it is located in the old thread. The answer to this question (on paper) will take care of this entire situation. Show me, with legal basis, the answers to my questions that you called reasonable in the thread previous to this one.

PRA

11-19-2004, 04:50 AM

Scott,
thanks for taking the time to research the information about Mentone Inc on the internet. However, the purchase price of the airport was $150,000. Which orginally consisted of 56 acreas, a 2,500 foot paved runway, 10 T-hangars and a concrete slab.
Since the purchase of the airport, there was a double wide, purchased, foundation prepard, and a septic system put in to provide a place for the P.R.A. office to move to, from Louisianna. To the best of my knowledge, was all done by donations and volunteer help by a lot of P.R.A. members and some of us non-members. Also, since then, there has been a building built to house the Rotorcraft musuem. Again, donations and a lot of volunteer help. If I had of thought for one minute that I was putting in MY volunteer time all these years, for someone elses personal gain (besides P.R.A.), I would'nt have lifted a finger nor would I have let my husband knock himself out either.

I think Jamie, Maxie, and others have had some very good questions in regards to the two entities, (actually there are three entities), here at Mentone. The Archimedies Rotorcraft and V/Stol Museum is a third. I myself am waiting to find out just, exactly, how this all works before I put in anymore of my volunteer time or money.

My concern is that if PRA Mentone Inc (the airport and all its buildings) are truley an asset of P.R.A. and something happens that P.R.A. fails and has to dissolve, then all its assets have to be given away to a another 501 (c) (3) organization, (according to P.R.A. by laws article of dissolution).
Wouldn't it piss you off if you put years of your life (both work and personal) into something just to watch it go down the toilet?
Which is exactly where P.R.A. is headed if we all don't out from behind these computers a little more often and try to make P.R.A. grow instead of fail.
--Pam

PRA

11-19-2004, 05:07 AM

I forgot one very important fact.
Ken, I'm not sure where your figure of 4,000 + member number came from, but for the last two to three years our membership count has only been between 2,700 to 2,800 worldwide.
When I started working for P.R.A. seven years ago, our membership was very near 5,000 and growing.
And now, ??? I don't know.
--Pam

Ralph

11-19-2004, 06:09 AM

There are lots of reasons for the decline in PRA membership:

(1) We have been in an economic downturn and most aviations orgs have seen a downturn in membership.

(2) The combination of argument and discussion about gyroplane stability, particularly on the old conference, bears a significant share of the "blame". The tone of those "discussions" either scared the hell out of prospective pilots or convinced any outside observers that we didn't have a clue about how our machines flew. Both were pure poison for the gyro movement, which is very ironic given that virtually all "problems" with gyroplane stability have been "solved".

(3) The dissatisfaction of a relatively few members has been compounded on this conference by lots of people who have never made any contribution to the sport, including the minimal one of PRA membership.

I have lots of reasons to be upset with some actions of the BOD but I don't question the integrity of the Board. I also keep paying my dues. There is no other organization that is as well-prepared to represent the interest of sport rotorcraft. It isn't perfect and never will be, but if you think it needs changing, you better do so from the inside. All of you guys that are sniping away from outside the PRA are within your "rights", but talk is cheap. The people you are sniping at have spent decades DOING things to support the sport and the organization. If one of those guys wants to complain, I will give them a respectful hearing. I may not agree with their point of view, but they have earned the right to have their opinion heard and respected.

A lot of you guys are smart in different ways - practical skills, technical know-how. Unfortunately, a lot of you are spending your time asking what the PRA can or should be doing for you rather than what you could be doing to build the organization. If you honestly feel the PRA cannot do the job, then get off your butts, form your own organization, and WORK to make it successful. The internet has certainly helped to make some technical advances in our sport, but it has also contributed to a severe decline in the interpersonal values and relationships that are just as important for the health and vitality of the rotorcraft movement.

Ralph

KenSandyEggo

11-19-2004, 06:39 AM

Ralph, nicely written post, but in (3), how would you know that it's relatively few members who are dissatisfied? You can't go only by those who speak up publicly. Many people can't voice their concerns on a public forum as this. I get a lot of supportive E-mails from a lot of people that I don't even know, who are also fed up with the Mentone mess.

"......I don't question the integrity of the Board."

Ralph, I would ask if you've read this thread from the beginning. I'm assuming you have. There is not one shred of doubt in your mind as to the motive of buying Mentone with our money (PRA members) and surreptitiously placing the title of the property in non-elected people's name(s)? You see nothing that concerns you regarding the attempts to stone-wall at almost every turn of honest questions posed by a couple of ELECTED board members to protect the member's interests from those holding our interests in the palms of their hands that were NOT elected by us?

Here's another quote from an E-mail I received.

"Reading the pro-GG crowd's posts makes me tremble for the future of American democratic institutions. No kidding. They can't recognize an idea, much less think it through."

Dean_Dolph

11-19-2004, 07:34 AM

……..Many people can't voice their concerns on a public forum as this……….. And why not?!! It seems they must be reading and their fingers work to send you an email but they can't post here? Come on! It they don't want to present and defend their position then they have bigger problems than Mentone. Here's another quote from an E-mail I received.

"Reading the pro-GG crowd's posts makes me tremble for the future of American democratic institutions. No kidding. They can't recognize an idea, much less think it through." Very elegant but talk about the kettle calling the pot black, geez!

Ralph

11-19-2004, 07:37 AM

Dean_Dolph

11-19-2004, 07:52 AM

I wish I had said that!

KenSandyEggo

11-19-2004, 08:04 AM

Go ahead, Dean. Sit on the perch with the other parrots if you want to.

KenSandyEggo

11-19-2004, 08:31 AM

Ken,

The "relatively few" business is based on simple reality. MOST PRA members don't fly gyros and MOST PRA members don't attend fly-ins at Mentone or anyplace else. What MOST PRA members want is a decent magazine that can fuel their own dreams of personal flight. Most people also don't care about the "politics" of the organizations they belong to. To others, the politics are everything and they naturally feel that everyone feels the way they do.

Ralph, when you throw around the word "MOST," can I safely assume that you have polled at least 51% of the PRA membership and asked them their views and what they want? It's merely your opinion and totally lacks validity.

How many individuals, not posts, are tied up in this set of treads? The percentage is small, even compared to the Conference membership, let alone the membership of the PRA. Add all the folks who have sent personal e-mails, either pro or con, and the number is still small.

Does small mean invalid? Were the few who spoke up against tyranny when it was fomenting in the world (pre-WWII) wrong? I don't think so Ralph. If one person speaks up against injustice, that is as valid as if thousands had done so.

Am I concerned about the purchase of the airport? No, I'm not. That decision was made in a period when those planning national conventions were being booted off the "host" field at the last moment. Many people in the organization felt (and still do) that it is the best intersts of the PRA to have at least one airport where we can't get kicked out. It also provided a permanent home for the organization when we were paying big-time rent for minimal office facilities. Some will continue to disagree.

We don't HAVE an airport, Ralph. Gary and his circle of friends do. We have nothing but a down-payment receipt and a stack mortgage payment receipts with absolutely no equity in the airport property. Gary and friends tucked that away for themselves. When are you going to get it?

If you are asking me if I think it probable or even possible that the principals involved in the airport purchase set up a sweet deal to benefit themselves? Some people want the reassurance provided by legal papers. I guess I'm old fashioned, having been scammed innumerable times with fine-sounding legal papers, I tend to think very little of such papers and those who create them. My confidence is based on that old fashion notion of personal character. Based on the PEOPLE that are involved with the airport Board, I have every confidence that they are acting for the benefit of the broader PRA.

Ralph, if you have been scammed innumerable times with legal papers, shame on you for not reading them thoroughly or relying on legal advice before signing them. By putting the airport in their names, how have they acted in the benefit of the PRA members?

As to the difficulties in getting the "papers", I know lots of people on lots of boards who tend to get very stiff-necked when their personal integrity is questioned. In many cases the response is conditioned by the context and manner in which a "request/accusation" is made. In my experience, it works best to ignore the insult component and comply with the request, even if you think the "requester" has their own axe to grind. It's too bad that there hasn't been more transparency up to this point, but all parties are somewhere between naive and dishonest if they assert that the issue will be settled with the availability of all the legal documents.

If a person on a board gets "stiff-necked" about financial matters in their trust, they are unable to discern personal from business and have no business running for office. The board's and member's actions are "business."

".....but all parties are somewhere between naive and dishonest if they assert that the issue will be settled with the availability of all the legal documents."

How are they settled then, Ralph? I don't believe any blue chip companies or smaller ones use tribal councils or anything. Please explain how expecting shady-looking deals to be resolved without legal action when one of the parties is reluctant to "open the books" is "dishonest?" I kind of take personal offense to being labeled dishonest by you, Ralph. Explain how I and others are being "dishonest." I think the word "naive" that you just threw out belongs in the "I've been innumerably scammed" paragraph.

Despite its small size, the PRA is a complex organization populated by some very strong personalities. There is a lot more to the airport debate than meets the eye. The one positive thing that will occur once the papers are available is that some of the real issues may surface when the bogus ones become untenable. The negative thing which is equally certain is that the vendettas, supported by endless uninformed speculation, will continue, bringing more harm than benefit to the organization.

Please point out the "bogus" issues to us, Ralph. Am I correct in assuming this is merely your personal opinion and not based on any facts that you can articulate? I really can't figure how to put a positive spin on this, Ralph. Now you throw in the word "vendettas." Have some proof of that, or again mere opinion and speculation on your part? "Endless uninformed speculation?" The airport being in a non-elected person(s) name when it is being paid for by the members of PRA is NOT uninformed speculation. That is pure fact.

The core of my position is a simple matter of trust. You either have it or you don't. Despite specific disagreements on some BoD decisions, I have confidence in the PRA leadership. That is not a position that can be assailed or fostered by endless rounds of debate and I don't intend to debate my position. Everybody else who wants to wade in can do so, but it is a particular curse of our time that what passes for discourse tends to end up being far more negative than positive.

Based on trhe actions and inactions of some of the board of PRA and all of the board of PRA Mentone, I'd say you hit the nail on the head. I think it should be clear by now that many of us indeed do not trust them. Have their manipulations with the deed to the property instilled trust in you?

Ralph, you write a good post, but I'm sorry, I have to reluctantly throw you into the "apologist's" pile of fluff. You have added nothing but support for the Mentone gang and have not addressed any of the issues under discussion here that are begging for sunshine and truth. You have labeled some of us as dishonest with nothing to justify that label. Over and out.

barnstorm2

11-19-2004, 08:39 AM

Excellent posts Ralph!

Go ahead, Dean. Sit on the perch with the other parrots if you want to.

Ken, you are mighty upset. Just what have you been doing for the PRA ( other then a few years of membership)?

Seems to me the Parrots have been hard a work doing constructive things for the PRA. Why don't you list your efforts here so we can add the respect for your work and commitment to the weight of your complaints.

Ralph

11-19-2004, 08:43 AM

Ken,

I've already said that I don't intend to debate personal opinion. We obviously disagree and I don't have a problem with that.

It is interesting to look at the issue of flying within the PRA membership. In fact, surveys have been done in the past and those actually flying gyros have always been a small minority. The actual number of gyros being flown in this country is an interesting question. FAA/ultralight registration figures don't mean much. I would be surprised if the actual number of machines exceeded 1,000 and, if it were a pool, the smart money would probably go for an even smaller number.

Ralph

PS (added after the fact): I don't think contributions have to be limited to the PRA. Ken has earned a seat at the table given his extensive work on the RAF stabilizer issue!

KenSandyEggo

11-19-2004, 08:55 AM

Like what? Quit my job and move to Mentone so I can cut the grass and paint the outhouse? Like about 99.5 % of the PRA membership, I send in my dues as required to support the organization to help pay for the lawnmower and the paint, even though I have a problem with that. Why is some of my money being used for maintaining a privately owned airport that I have no equity in? If the "parrots" didn't enjoy tidying up and hanging around Gary's airport, I'm sure that the PRA board would hire a lawn service and a handyman with our money to take care of the PRA Mentone's chores.

Here we go again. Any issues under discussion to address,Tim? Grrrrrr. :cool: Quit blowing more smoke up my and everyone's asses and address how constructive, besides to themselves, Gary's personal PRA Mentone board has been to the membership? Can we say it in any other fashion than that they bought an airport with our money and sneakily put it in their names? (Geez. How many times does this have to be repeated?). How many times does their unethical behavior have to be pointed out? Please explain to me the ethics involved in what they have done. The smoke is starting to come out of my ears and I can't see. Please stop. :D Just because I forcefully debate an issue that concerns me does not make me "upset." You're placing labels with no basis in fact. The truth be known, I enjoy heated discussions and communication where facts and truth can be addressed.

Disclaimer!!!!! Disclaimer!!!!! This is a good-old fashined discussion not to be taken personally by anyone.....even if I did at Ralph's usage of the "dishonest" word. Do as I say and....blah-blah-blah.

KenSandyEggo

11-19-2004, 09:10 AM

You know what? To show how impersonal this discussion is and can be and should be, I didn't even know that I was bantering with the honorable and legendary Ralph Taggart until a few seconds ago. I didn't even look at the profile of who I was in discussion with. I just addressed the issues as presented in my own inimitable fashion. No, I'm not saying that is how I always do it. I try, but often fail miserably with my sharp tongue.....er, fingers. If I had known it was Dr.Taggart, I probably wouldn't have relinquished him to the "fluff pile." :o I still disagree with most of what he posted and that's how I felt at the time, but he has mine and everyone else's respect for the things he's done, I'm sure.

Ralph

11-19-2004, 09:17 AM

Ken,

You should worry. I have the same trouble with my wife, who has far more experience then you do in dealing with the legendary Ralph Taggart! Also, don't take the dishonest business too seriously as it is possible that you are just naive :=)

Fly safe,

Ralph

KenSandyEggo

11-19-2004, 09:19 AM

Kissy-kissy. I love this place and everyone here, even though some of you may have a problem believing that, but it's true.

PRA

11-19-2004, 09:21 AM

We don't HAVE an airport, Ralph. Gary and his circle of friends do.

What document is this "fact" based on?

By putting the airport in their names, how have they acted in the benefit of the PRA members?

Again, what document shows this "fact"?

Am I correct in assuming this is merely your personal opinion and not based on any facts that you can articulate?

And just where are these "facts" coming from?

The airport being in a non-elected person(s) name when it is being paid for by the members of PRA is NOT uninformed speculation. That is pure fact.

Once more where did this "fact" come from?

Have their manipulations with the deed to the property instilled trust in you?

Finally, where are the "facts" supporting this idea?

Awaiting more facts,
--Pam

KenSandyEggo

11-19-2004, 09:40 AM

From the below, is Don then a liar or just full of ****, Pam? Pick one. According to you, everything he posted is bull****, so why didn't we hear from you or anyone when he posted it? Sounds as though he knows what he's talking about and no one suggested that he didn't. Doesn't sound as though he made this all up out of thin air. Don, are you a liar of full of it? Where did you get the facts you posted? I don't think Don is either. I implicitly believe what he posted. All the stuff that has come out clearly points in the direction of what he has said. He must have been pretty sure of what he said. If he wasn't, and later found out it was not factual, that would have been a huge embarrassment for Don. I doubt that he would have left himself wide open like that unless he absolutely knew what he was talking about. Pam, where is the document with the "fact" that PRA owns the airport? It's only been asked for about 10 jillion times. Since when do we have to prove that we DON'T own the airport? Does anyone in this country ever have to prove they didn't do something? At this point, I believe that it is up to the Mentone people to show that the PRA owns the airport, if indeed they can. They're the ones who have muddled up the ownership issue, not the members.

Please address this, Pam. It's a direct contradiction to what you are intimating. Did someone get to you? You were pretty uncertain in one of your last posts about the direction the PRA was going and whether it was wise for you to continue devoting so much work and time toward the PRA. I believe you also posed a question. Why the sudden turnaround in your most recent post with a vehement defense? Here's Don's stuff.

"So instead of busting the PRA's balls, go find the owners of PRA Mentone Inc., and scream at them since they are the rightful controllers of the airport, not the PRA.

The Popular Rotorcraft Association does not OWN the airport. PRA Mentone Inc. owns the airport. The airport is not under the control of the PRA membership. The PRA only rents space from PRA Mentone Inc. The only assets you're going to find on the PRA books are a few junk-ass computers and some file cabinets in the PRA office.

If the PRA BOD didn't like the idea of being based at Mentone, there isn't anything stopping the PRA BOD from voting that the PRA headquarters be moved to some other location. Except for rent being paid to PRA Mentone Inc., there is no ownership connection between the 2 organizations.

But more importantly because the PRA membership does not own the airport and this whole argument is a mute (sic) point.

The PRA doesn’t have anything to do with the ownership of the airport. PRA Mentone Inc. is a separate entity and has no ownership association with the PRA what so ever. It doesn’t matter one way or the other if the PRA closes it’s doors, because NONE of us will see a dime from the sale of the airport because we, the PRA membership, do not own the airport! PRA Mentone Inc. owns the airport, not the Popular Rotorcraft Association! The letters “P”, “R”, “A” in PRA Mentone Inc. don’t mean a damn thing."

Don Shoebridge, PRA# 33036
__________________

KenSandyEggo

11-19-2004, 09:44 AM

"And why not?!! It seems they must be reading and their fingers work to send you an email but they can't post here? Come on! It they don't want to present and defend their position then they have bigger problems than Mentone."

Maybe the same reasons that none of the "in-crowd" members of the 2 PRA-named boards do, Dean. Why not pose the question to them? They won't answer anything anywhere.

PRA

11-19-2004, 09:53 AM

From the below, is Don then a liar or just full of ****, Pam. According to you, everything he posted is bull****, so why didn't we hear from you or anyone when he posted it?

I can't answer for "anyone" else except myself. I wasn't following any of this stuff until a couple of weeks ago.

As far as Don being a liar or just full of it, he's neither. A little misinformed maybe, but by no means a liar or full of anything.

I have a question for any of you.
Who owns P.R.A., I'm curious?
--Pam

KenSandyEggo

11-19-2004, 10:07 AM

Here's your quote in case you forgot.

"I myself am waiting to find out just, exactly, how this all works before I put in anymore of my volunteer time or money.

My concern is that if PRA Mentone Inc (the airport and all its buildings) are truley an asset of P.R.A. and something happens that P.R.A. fails and has to dissolve, then all its assets have to be given away to a another 501 (c) (3) organization, (according to P.R.A. by laws article of dissolution).

Wouldn't it piss you off if you put years of your life (both work and personal) into something just to watch it go down the toilet?"

Seems here that you have some doubts and concerns, Pam.

Don, were you misinformed? If you were, which I don't think you were, who misinformed you? Someone would have had to told you that information.

KenSandyEggo

11-19-2004, 10:17 AM

What does PRA own that therefore someone else can own, like maybe the members? An organization is not "owned." It's not a piece of lumber. It's an entity and is made up of the members. Who owns the Red Cross? Who owns the Elks? However, an organization can own other things as property....like an airport. What entity properly owns the airport should be the question and where's the proof that PRA does. You're saying, along with others, that PRA owns it, yet not one shred of documentation that has been begged for for years has been produced to verify that. Instead, the members are being asked to prove we don't. Ludicrous to say the least. We don't operate under the Napoleonic form of government in this country.

KenSandyEggo

11-19-2004, 10:45 AM

Ron summed it up pretty good a while ago.

"We became a member of the PRA by sending in our 35$ and the PRA bought the airport with the PRA's money. That means the PRAs assets belong to the membership of the PRA. The PRA does not have a indivdual owner, it is owned by the membership at large."

barnstorm2

11-19-2004, 11:17 AM

PRA

11-19-2004, 11:25 AM

What does PRA own that therefore someone else can own, like maybe the members? An organization is not "owned." It's not a piece of lumber. It's an entity and is made up of the members.
Exactly.
Who owns the Red Cross? Who owns the Elks?
And do you know who owns PRA Mentone Inc. (a 501 (c) organization)?

However, an organization can own other things as property....like an airport.
Right.

What entity properly owns the airport should be the question and where's the proof that PRA does.
The entity that owns Mentone airport is PRA Mentone Inc.

You're saying, along with others, that PRA owns it, yet not one shred of documentation that has been begged for for years has been produced to verify that. Instead, the members are being asked to prove we don't.
I'm not sure why you think that I ever said that P.R.A. owns the airport. In fact, I've always known that PRA Mentone Inc owns the airport. I don't understood the papers that I have seen, as to how P.R.A. is supposed to own PRA Mentone Inc.
That's what I waiting to find out.
By the way, I haven't seen anywhere, where the members are being asked to prove that they don't own the airport.

Hey Vance or Doug Riley, can you guys help us out here again?
Thanks,
Pam

madmax

11-19-2004, 02:52 PM

"I myself am waiting to find out just, exactly, how this all works before I put in anymore of my volunteer time or money.

My concern is that if PRA Mentone Inc (the airport and all its buildings) are truley an asset of P.R.A. and something happens that P.R.A. fails and has to dissolve, then all its assets have to be given away to a another 501 (c) (3) organization, (according to P.R.A. by laws article of dissolution).

Wouldn't it piss you off if you put years of your life (both work and personal) into something just to watch it go down the toilet?"

Seems here that you have some doubts and concerns, Pam.

Ken you need to read Pam's post again. What she is saying is that if PRA does own the Airport, she does not want to do anything else there. So it looks like she is of the understanding that PRA does not own it and that is why her and Glenn do so much there.

madmax

11-19-2004, 03:08 PM

Ken,

Are you an EAA member? If so you should get on their forums and raise some hell. They have been buying all kinds of stuff with out asking your permission, 900 acres in Oshkosh, buildings, Ford Tri-motor, B-17 and a lot more!

It's as if they elected a board to run the org rather than having every little decision and piece of paperwork approved by each $35 member!

Tim

This is yet more mud in the water.

If the things that are purchased by the EAA remain the property of EAA, then there is no problem.

Unlike the Airport and PRA. The PRA purchased the airport and now it seems to belong solely to PRA Mentone. An Organization that has nothing Legally to do with PRA. There lies the problem.

As I was on the Board from 1997 to 2004 and have been a PRA member since the early 1980's. I would think that I am one of the one's that is entitled to an opinion.

barnstorm2

11-19-2004, 04:32 PM

Tim

This is yet more mud in the water.

If the things that are purchased by the EAA remain the property of EAA, then there is no problem.

Unlike the Airport and PRA. The PRA purchased the airport and now it seems to belong solely to PRA Mentone. An Organization that has nothing Legally to do with PRA. There lies the problem.

As I was on the Board from 1997 to 2004 and have been a PRA member since the early 1980's. I would think that I am one of the one's that is entitled to an opinion.

Maxie,

If tenure and time served is what gives you the right to an opinion Tom M has you beat then yes? As well as some other current board members no? Perhaps I am mistaken on how long some people have productive members.

OK OK! I have read them and so has an accountant. ALL IS IN ORDER. PRA DOES OWN THE AIRPORT, ALONG WITH ALL MEMBERS. Now with that said We are still looking into some other papers also. BUT BOTTOM LINE AIRPORT DOES BELONG TO PRA AND MEMBERS.

I asked for these papers at BD Days 2004, after Maxie and Dan resigned. I spoke to Gary and he assured me he would send me a copy. I did in deed get the papers as I posted and have been looking thru them, and have taken them to a very reliable friend who is an accontant, who used to practice in IN, but now lives in Naples, FL.

These papers are up to date and accurate. As I learn more I will say more. Till then all I can assure you is WE OWN THE AIRPORT, that is ALL MEMBERS OF PRA OWN IT.

This makes me Happy! To see it is to Belive it! Jamie I hear YA. MJ :)

jamiebodie

11-19-2004, 06:44 PM

jamiebodie

11-19-2004, 06:55 PM

What document is this "fact" based on?

Again, what document shows this "fact"?

And just where are these "facts" coming from?

Once more where did this "fact" come from?

Finally, where are the "facts" supporting this idea?

Awaiting more facts,
--Pam

Thank God for Pam, those are the questions that Maxie and I have been asking for two years, please show us the documents that prove or disprove the above statemtents. The PRA has them or at least should have them and this should be a simple to handle "no brainer" that was over moments after the first question was asked, yet it goes on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on. Anyone ever wonder why? I do.

Jamie

madmax

11-19-2004, 07:00 PM

Posted by Ralph

The people you are sniping at have spent decades DOING things to support the sport and the organization. If one of those guys wants to complain, I will give them a respectful hearing. I may not agree with their point of view, but they have earned the right to have their opinion heard and respected.

I'm sorry I thought I might qualify under Ralph's plan.

Posted by Tim

If tenure and time served is what gives you the right to an opinion Tom M has you beat then yes? As well as some other current board members no? Perhaps I am mistaken on how long some people have productive members.

I did know that you only operated on seniority and only the oldest gets to speak. If that is the way it works then we should just find the most senior and ask his or her opinion, then once we have it, it's over.

Posted by Tim

Originally Posted by Rotornut
OK OK! I have read them and so has an accountant. ALL IS IN ORDER. PRA DOES OWN THE AIRPORT, ALONG WITH ALL MEMBERS. Now with that said We are still looking into some other papers also. BUT BOTTOM LINE AIRPORT DOES BELONG TO PRA AND MEMBERS.

I asked for these papers at BD Days 2004, after Maxie and Dan resigned. I spoke to Gary and he assured me he would send me a copy. I did in deed get the papers as I posted and have been looking thru them, and have taken them to a very reliable friend who is an accontant, who used to practice in IN, but now lives in Naples, FL.

These papers are up to date and accurate. As I learn more I will say more. Till then all I can assure you is WE OWN THE AIRPORT, that is ALL MEMBERS OF PRA OWN IT.

I'm not sure why you would post this again. I have posted that my accountant says they are up to date and accurate also. He also said that they are two separate and independent Organizations. He is only 75 years ols and has been doing corp. Books since he graduated College. There is some seniority for you! Now we know only one holds the deed to the Mentone Airport. Since the one that holds the deed is not PRA, then PRA and it's members can not own the Airport as MJ had posted. Unless there is some legal connection between the two. I also believe that when her accountant read this thread and realized the real concern and the real question and had no document to show this. He then decided not to answer any more questions because he didn't want you guys bashing and slamming him as you have chosen to do with Jamie, Ken and me.

Since you are now getting a copy of the papers of your own, you should be able to post your opinion soon with the paper that supports it.

Just remember!!! The question is not who owns the airport. We know that already.

Maybe you could just ask them if Don is as right as I think he is. If they agree then you don't need any other paper work, Pam will have sent you all that is needed to support it because what we received supports Don's explanation. Perhaps that will be better for you.

jamiebodie

11-19-2004, 07:07 PM

The above MJ quote by Tim in post 53 has since been recanted by MJ who is now waiting to see who the actual owners of the airport are and is another fine example of trying to muddy the waters. Guys, this is a simple answer with a simple solution. All we need is a little disclosure by those in the know. There are no alterior motives as Ralph would suggest, when the question was first asked it was asked as any other question with the best interest of the PRA and it's members in mind. The year and one half of silence since then is what is causing all of this discussion.

barnstorm2

11-19-2004, 07:45 PM

Maxie please take the time to read your own post #52 and then take the time to read all and understand my post #53.

You are the one who brought up the qualifications of whom is "entitled to an opinion"

Posted by Ralph

I'm sorry I thought I might qualify under Ralph's plan.

Posted by Tim

I did know that you only operated on seniority and only the oldest gets to speak. If that is the way it works then we should just find the most senior and ask his or her opinion, then once we have it, it's over.

Posted by Tim

I'm not sure why you would post this again. I have posted that my accountant says they are up to date and accurate also. He also said that they are two separate and independent Organizations. He is only 75 years ols and has been doing corp. Books since he graduated College. There is some seniority for you! Now we know only one holds the deed to the Mentone Airport. Since the one that holds the deed is not PRA, then PRA and it's members can not own the Airport as MJ had posted. Unless there is some legal connection between the two. I also believe that when her accountant read this thread and realized the real concern and the real question and had no document to show this. He then decided not to answer any more questions because he didn't want you guys bashing and slamming him as you have chosen to do with Jamie, Ken and me.

Since you are now getting a copy of the papers of your own, you should be able to post your opinion soon with the paper that supports it.

Just remember!!! The question is not who owns the airport. We know that already.

Maybe you could just ask them if Don is as right as I think he is. If they agree then you don't need any other paper work, Pam will have sent you all that is needed to support it because what we received supports Don's explanation. Perhaps that will be better for you.

KenSandyEggo

11-19-2004, 11:39 PM

Bad, bad illogical comparison and attempt at rationilization, Tim. Everything bought by EAA is OWNED by EAA, not some individual who used EAA's money and put it in his personal name. Everything substantive bought with PRA's money is owned by a private party. I thought you would see the difference, Tim. No organization that I know of gives away their money to self-annointed whatevers to buy themselves a chunk of land. Of course when the giver and self-appointed receiver are the same person, it becomes rather unethical and easy.

KenSandyEggo

11-19-2004, 11:47 PM

Pam, now you're the one that's making confusing posts. When I said that PRA Mentone owns the airport and not the PRA, why did you ask me if I had any documentation to prove it? Then you must agree that PRA put up the money, Gary formed PRA Mentone, gave himself PRA's money to buy the airport and he and his friends own the airport outright that they bought with PRA's money. Can anyone disopute this? It has been posted here innumerable times that if any PRA members want to know who owns the airport they should do it on their own. You're getting as good as the others at blowing smoke, Pam.

KenSandyEggo

11-20-2004, 12:02 AM

Tim, don't you get tired of saying nothing except nit-picking on tenure, who is entitled to an opinion and **** like that? Those are not the issues. One more time. Gary decides to buy an airport. He takes almost $200,000 of the PRA's money for the airport and repaving, sets himself and some friends up as PRA Mentone by merely appointing himself and his buddies. It's a completely separate, privately formed corporation that is not connected to PRA in any way, and he transfers the PRA's money over to himself. He tells the bank that he and his friends are buying the airport and has the bank put either his alone or his and his friend's names on the title to the property (maybe as PRA Mentone, the name of their private club). Him and his buddies now own the Mentone airport with the money that he took from the PRA to purchase it. If you or anyone else can't see the f*****g immorality, conflict of interest and unethical actions in this, you must be in La-La land somewhere. People go to prison for **** like this. In lawyerly circles, I believe they refer to it as something like embezzlement, "the taking, for example money, for one's own use in violation of a trust." PRA entrusted the president of the organization to handle their money responsibly and carefully in the best interests of the organization. The president took the organization's money and bought himself an airport with that money and put the property in his own name. Do you get it now? I really can't believe that you still wouldn't.

The only thing I haven't heard yet in this thread, is someone railing about misspellings and grammatical mistakes, the ultimate act of blowing smoke up asses. That surely has to be close down the pike somewhere.

I'm working a 12.5 hour shift tomorrow at the hospital and probably Sunday and must take leave of this place for a few days. I know that you ALL will miss me, I'm sure. If anyone is still clinging to the premise that everything is roses in Mentone, then they're beyond help, hope and reasoning and no amount of truth is going to sway them.They are not going to allow any facts to sway their opinions. Besides, I have something else that came up that I have to handle. Momma bought a chicken, thought it was a duck, put him on the table with his feet stickin' up......now we got trouble.

madmax

11-20-2004, 03:26 AM

From Ralph's post #29

The people you are sniping at have spent decades DOING things to support the sport and the organization. If one of those guys wants to complain, I will give them a respectful hearing.

From Tim's post #58

Maxie please take the time to read your own post #52 and then take the time to read all and understand my post #53.

You are the one who brought up the qualifications of whom is "entitled to an opinion"

No actually it was Ralph in his post #29. Maybe I should not expect that you are reading the full thread before you post a reply. That would explain a few things for me, sorry my mistake. As a active member with voting rights in PRA, it would seem to me that you should be expected by all that your voice would be heard. If my qualifications are not enough to entitle me to have an opinion within PRA, then tell me what the qualifications are and we can just limit future post to the qualified only. It seems like most every one with tenure, wants to put some kind of restriction on who has a right to speak up and be heard and those who have the right also happen to share their opinion. I wonder why that is. We will just throw away that whole RESPECTFULLY part as it seems to not exist here. There is your reason that those who send privet e-mails to others don't post here.

Here is a thought!!!

If you go back and look at who came out fighting about this, then you have to notice Chuck and Tom are some of the first. Now they have been here a very long time. Put that together with the silence of the current PRA Board (most long term members) and the silence of the of the current PRA Mentone Board (again long term members). Who are suppose to be PRA members with the best interest of PRA in mind. Now Ralph offering a (respectful hearing) only to those who have been here for decades, and happen to share his opinion. Well then, one might conclude that everything was set up just like all of these people wanted it, maybe they feel like they have done so much over the decades that the new guy's owe them something in return and the price they came up with was an Airport. You know,a Gift, at their request, from us to them. Maybe this is the reason we purchased the airport instead of the reason presented to the PRA membership to get their approval to buy the airport. Seems to me this would be the only reason these senior members would put up such a fight to keep this quite. Other than that, one would think that they too would want to see some paper work protecting the PRA and it's members.

Now there is a ulterior motive for you. One just like you guys have been looking for. The real plan that takes years surface. Years before the real scheme is revealed. Yep this fits all of your concerns of what is really going on.

PRA

11-20-2004, 04:00 AM

PRA

11-20-2004, 05:30 AM

My apologies for the previous post. I clicked on the wrong button when I was making a quote.

"I myself am waiting to find out just, exactly, how this all works before I put in anymore of my volunteer time or money.
My concern is that if PRA Mentone Inc (the airport and all its buildings) are truley an asset of P.R.A. and something happens that P.R.A. fails and has to dissolve, then all its assets have to be given away to a another 501 (c) (3) organization, (according to P.R.A. by laws article of dissolution).
Wouldn't it piss you off if you put years of your life (both work and personal) into something just to watch it go down the toilet?"

Seems here that you have some doubts and concerns, Pam.
I sure do, Ken.

Ken you need to read Pam's post again. What she is saying is that if PRA does own the Airport, she does not want to do anything else there. So it looks like she is of the understanding that PRA does not own it and that is why her and Glenn do so much there.
Maxie,
I don't need for you to clarify anything for me, I'm plenty capable of speaking my own mind, thank you.

Jamie,
I completely understand your feelings, when people won't LISTEN to you instead of making there own ASS-UMPTIONS.

Guys,
remember in the Gary Goldsberry post when I posted the Article XI of the P.R.A. by-laws?

Maybe some of you ought to re-read the by-laws for both P.R.A. and PRA Mentone Inc. Because what really concerns me is the articles of dissolution for both organizations.

My understanding of them is that if either organization decides to disolve, the assets of either organization has to be given away to another 501 (c) organization of its type.

For instance, P.R.A. is a 501 (c) 3 and PRA Mentone Inc is a 501
(c) something else ? (4) I think.
Anyway, if it is that P.R.A. somehow owns PRA Mentone Inc (the airport) and is truley an asset of P.R.A. and P.R.A. was to fail and dissolve, then the airport, office equipment, money in the bank accounts and whatever else that would be considered "assets" would have to be given away to another 501 (c) organization of its type.

Now, if P.R.A. does not own PRA Mentone Inc., and Mentone Inc. decides to dissolve, the airport then still has to be given to another 501 (c) organization of its type. My understanding is that the airport can not be sold for any individuals gain, according to the PRA Mentone Inc by-laws.
Either way it goes, it looks to me like if either organization fails or dissolves the airport is lost.

Now in the event that P.R.A. does not own Mentone Inc. and P.R.A. was to dissolve, PRA Mentone Inc. would not be an asset of P.R.A. and would not have to be given away. The airport would still belong to PRA Mentone Inc. still be run as an airport for rotorcraft enthusiast .

Now there is the issue of the third entity that resides at the Mentone airport. The Archimedes Rotorcraft and V/Stol Museum founded in 1986 by Glenn Bundy. He was the sole supporter of the museum for years until he was asked to move the museum to P.R.A.'s home base of operations at Mentone in 1998. I have a concern as to what will happen to the museum if the P.R.A. or PRA Mentone Inc. seaces to exist.

Anyway, until this is all made as clear to me as the nose on my face, I see everything that Glenn and I have done for both P.R.A. and PRA Mentone Inc. as a wasted effort if the P.R.A. doesn't get the help it needs to survive.

At this point, the only way I see P.R.A. getting the help it needs is by donations. Donations to P.R.A. come in the form of membership dues, of which some of you are complaining about the price of dues increasing soon. Membership dues have not been increased since 1998 and the cost to advertisers has not been increased, at least, since 1994. And the membership drives do not seem to be doing the trick to drive up memberships.

So, Guys, what do think about how the P.R.A. is going to survive?
Because at the current rate it's going, I see it circling the drain.
--Pam

jamiebodie

11-20-2004, 06:37 AM

Pam,
It would not have to be given away, it could be sold and the monies used to keep the PRA afloat. That is as long as the PRA actually owns the airport, if not bye bye PRA.

Wouldn't it piss you off if the PRA was going under and PRA Mentone would not sell the airport to help us out?

jb
Here is the article of dissolution

Upon the dissolution of the organization, assets shall be distributed for one or more exempt purposes within the meaning of section 501 (c) (3) of the Internal Revenue Code, or corresponding section of any future federal tax code, or shall be distributed to the federal government, or to a state or local Government for a public purpose. Any such assets not disposed of shall be disposed of by the Court of Common Pleas of the county in which the principle office of the organization is then located, exclusively for such purposes or to such organization or organizations as said Court shall determine which are organized and operated exclusively for such purposes.

barnstorm2

11-20-2004, 06:59 AM

Pam,

I don't see the PRA going away. I have been doing a lot of work with local flying clubs and EAA chapters and things are the same everywhere. Sportpilot is widely expected to get things jumpstarted. So long as the rotorcraft community gets off it's but and gets the word out we too can be part of what sport pilot is expected to grow into.

Spending our time on this BS is not going to help which I sometimes suspect is the motivation of some of the people who make more of this than there is.

People here that are raising a stink about the $35 investment need to get a grip. If you don't like the way the PRA is run SIMPLE vote! Don't want to vote then shut up or don't renew. The membership is not an unlimited license to bitch and undermine the hard work of those of us who really care and do work not just lip service and whining.

If the whiners really cared about the PRA, rather than hiding behind keyboards, would be supporting people like Brian who is doing VOLENTEER work on the web page, writing articles or a myriad of other constructive things for the rotorcraft community. I would certainly have a lot more respect and consideration for someone's gripes if they were also involved in DOING something positive.

PRA

11-20-2004, 07:25 AM

Wouldn't it piss you off if the PRA was going under and PRA Mentone would not sell the airport to help us out?
Jamie,
to be completely honest with you, I'm very "pissed off" over all of this.

Ask Dan Leslie and Maxie Wildes about what they found out as to what got me pissed off back in 1997 when I moved to Mentone and took on the job as office manager for P.R.A. I was then and still am today pissed off about the lack of or "piss" poor communication skills of some people in P.R.A., my own husband included.

It has been very difficult for me in the office of P.R.A. to help run this organization and manage its membership without good communications. It's also been hard to do without the help and support of ALL of my bosses (board members) at one time or another. No offense to anyone in particular, but it's been really hard for me to understand the motives of anyone, who decides to give up there positions on the board of directors to try and fight for something, they suppossedly believe in, from the outside.
I have to at least respect those that have stayed even if they, would or do, piss me off at times.
I'm curious, since I don't like to hear things second hand, what is the exact reasons that you most recent X-board members resigned for?

And what do you think P.R.A. could do to survive, short of selling the airport. Which by the way would probably take a lot of time. In the meantime, what does P.R.A. do to survive?

I'm looking for good suggestions.
Thanks,
Pam

scott heger

11-20-2004, 08:00 AM

Pam,
Short and simple answer.....get the PRA money back from PRA Mentone that they used.

Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel, Ca N86SH

barnstorm2

11-20-2004, 08:09 AM

No offense to anyone in particular, but it's been really hard for me to understand the motives of anyone, who decides to give up there positions on the board of directors to try and fight for something, they supposedly believe in, from the outside.

Lots of people feel that way and ask it but they only want criticism to flow in one direction around here. I may be wrong but I think a few of these people stated they are getting out of gyro flying all together. Really makes you wonder about motives and personal merit. I don't see anything constructive happening other than hiding behind a keyboard.

And what do you think P.R.A. could do to survive, short of selling the airport. Which by the way would probably take a lot of time. In the meantime, what does P.R.A. do to survive?

I'm looking for good suggestions.

Lots of things.

Fly your gyro and be nice and answer questions.
Take pictures of what you are building and flying and post them
Print out some flyers and leave them in the pilot lounge
Help Brian with material for the web page
Write an article or just post about your flying experiences
Ask Tom M how you can help him with Chapter Coordination
Ask Tim Blackwell what you can do to help the PRA
Send pictures of your newly completed machine to the EAA mag
Go to local fly-ins and join local UL and EAA clubs
Think of more things you can do!

As far as $ goes I have seen LOTS of good posts my several people on how the airport could be used to host events that could bring plenty of extra $ in for the PRA.

PRA

11-20-2004, 08:26 AM

Short and simple answer.....get the PRA money back from PRA Mentone that they used.
What money, exactly, are your referring to, Scott?
--Pam

scott heger

11-20-2004, 08:41 AM

Pam,
The money that the PRA put into the airport, I.e. the $40,000 for runway repaving, other improvments, downpayments etc. Do you as office manager know the total amount of money PRA has put into this airport(with or without rent)?

Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel, Ca N86SH

Dean_Dolph

11-20-2004, 11:28 AM

Go ahead, Dean. Sit on the perch with the other parrots if you want to.Parrots?! Gee, Ken, you surely can do better than that. Maybe I've lost my touch. In the ole days Craig Wall would have called me an idiot, a fool, or both, three times by now - and probably all in the same post!

jamiebodie

11-20-2004, 02:38 PM

Now, if P.R.A. does not own PRA Mentone Inc., and Mentone Inc. decides to dissolve, the airport then still has to be given to another 501 (c) organization of its type. My understanding is that the airport can not be sold for any individuals gain, according to the PRA Mentone Inc by-laws.

Pam, things don't have to be given away, they can be sold. You are right not for an individuals gain, but if the PRA needed to sell the airport to keep the museum and the PRA afloat it could do so, providing it actually owned the airport legally.

JB

jamiebodie

11-20-2004, 02:51 PM

Tim stop talking about motives and start talking about answers, good grief. If you or anyone else would answer the question we would have to shut up. This information exists and I guarantee you Gary knows the answer. TIM STOP BEATING THE MOTIVE TREE. WE HAVE BEEN AT THIS FOR OVER 18 MONTHS WE WILL STOP WHEN WE GET AN ANSWER. Now what are the motives of those who are keeping this information secret? That is a better question for you, but you are too close to the forest to see the trees.

Pam wrote:

I'm curious, since I don't like to hear things second hand, what is the exact reasons that you most recent X-board members resigned for?

Pam I quite because every time I wanted an answer to even the simplest question I had to fight and fight and fight and fight and fight. It got old and cumbersome, it is old and cumbersome, but I will finish this one last fight. Stepping down was a way to make people take notice that the BOD was keeping all of us in the dark. Fighting with the BOD was too much effort and a waste of valueable time. I had to fight like the devil to make the BOD follow their own by-laws on at least two occasions. I had to fight like the devil to get a list of lifetime members release so people would realize who was eligible to sit on the BOD. Not to mention numerous other times. It got old and my obligations to my family were more important than fighting with BOD members. Maxie will have to answer for himself and you can call Dan if you would like, but that is why I stepped down.

KenSandyEggo

11-20-2004, 03:16 PM

Duuuuuh, Dean. Obviously I have mellowed to a mere shell of my old surly self. :D

11-20-2004, 03:57 PM

I understand that a select few were sent copies of the documents in question. Couldn't one of you guys scan and post them here? Or maybe Pam?

Am I oversimplifying this?

This truck has been stuck in the mud for too long. And it appears that someone is standing behind it with a running garden hose.

barnstorm2

11-20-2004, 04:30 PM

Steve,

I am awaiting a copy of the paperwork to arrive in my mail box. After I have a professional give me an opionion and I post the results I will ask permission to scan and post the documents here. Many are available online already if you know how to do a public domain search.

KenSandyEggo

11-20-2004, 04:51 PM

I have a few minutes at work before my next procedures, so I'm baaaaaaack.

Here's a scenarion that came to mind earlier today. Gary and his friends own the airport as an entity called PRA Mentone. As far as anyone knows at this point, there is absolutely no fiscal relationship between us, the PRA membership and PRA Mentone, Gary and some personal friends. As far as can be seen, there is nothing to stop the PRA Mentone from selling the airport proerty and keeping the money....money that was formerly the property of the members of the PRA.

For whatever reason, PRA Mentone decides to sell the airport and cash-in whatever appreciated equity there is, plus the original cost of the property. Now they are sitting on a pile of cash that the PRA can't touch because of the clever and sneaky way they set it up. There is nothing preventing them from awarding themselves bonuses, stipends, or salaries. They don't have to answer to anyone, as ther is no one else. There is nothing that says a non-profi corporation has to stay "profitable," in the sense of accruing income to cover their expenses. They can milk the money dry and then dissolve the corporation when the cash runs out. Will they absolutely do that? Maybe not, but the opportunities for shenanigans like that should not be permitted to continue. They should have not been allowed in the first place, but back then, no one had a crystal ball at the time that could see behind closed doors, under the table and carpet or into the minds of those who instigated this scheme.

I believe that as a non-charitable non-profit organization, they are not under the scrutiny that real charitable organizations are. A good example is the local Red Cross during the last wildfires. Hundreds of thousand of dollars were collected from friends, neighbors and the community to help those that lost their homes. The victims received bags of groceries, blankets and some vouchers to stay in a motel for awhile and that's it. There was enough money donated to do much more, like assisting in rebuilds and paying insurance deductibles for these misfortunate people, many of whom lost spouses, parents and children to the flames.

Some one thought that something wasn't smelling quite right (sound familiar?). They started snooping around and asking questions about all the donated money that didn't seem to be making its way down to the victims. They ultimately discovered that the Red Cross alloted a miniscule pertion of the money colected to those it was intended for. They used the rest of it on some of their other programs, overhead and exenses not involved in any way with the fire and the like. More people blew their stack after finding out about this mis-management, that the local director was pulliung down something like $300,000 per year. There was enough uproar to get her ass fired and the Red Cross to promise that all funds collected locally in the future would be used locally.

Most states have a smorgasbord of committees and boards. There are boards looking after the funeral directors, all the horseshoers in California, embalmers, barbers, hair salons and a slew of others. The thing is, these boards and committees meet only once or twice a year, and somehow, places like Hawaii or Paris seem to be the most conducive locations to hold their meetings. They do almost absolutely nothing for their salaries that range from75K per year to over 200K per year. Why are they allowed to exist one might ask. They exist because the governor and other politicians have to have some way of rewarding their benefactors for their campaign contributions. Now the benevolent ones are usually pretty rich and hold down decent day jobs, so these boards are cluttered with wives, uncles, sons and daughters and a slew of other incompetents that wouldn't have any income otherwise.

I went a little off-track here, but the point is, that if we don't do something to recover the money that to me appears to have been stolen from us, we can kiss it off, because Gary and the gang will figure out some way to put it in their pockets. Is that a guarantee that they will ever do this? Of course not, but that opportunity should not exist for anyone to use, now or in the future 100 years away.

barnstorm2

11-20-2004, 05:06 PM

"the clever and sneaky way they set it up." -Er what way is that. So far as I have seen there is nothing sneaky and everything was setup per advise of legal council.

Ken,

Do you have any clue to what kind of people Gary and the board are? Do you have any clue how much time, money effort the have and do put into our hobby? Just what crimes have they commited for you to warrent slinging this kind of slander at them?

11-20-2004, 06:49 PM

Tim,

I think you should re-read Ken’s comments. He prefaced his remarks with: “Here's a scenario that came to mind earlier today. Gary and his friends…” He also said: “if we don't do something to recover the money that to me appears to have been stolen from…” NOTE: The word ‘appears.’

If Ken wanted to say Gary’s a crook, he would flat-out say it. He has not. Because Ken doesn’t know. We don’t know.

Let’s see the documents. These are public domain documents and require no one’s permission to post here. You must realize how this looks to the PRA. We (The PRA) are demanding the documents.

KenSandyEggo

11-20-2004, 07:03 PM

Tim, I can't keep repeating over and over ad nauseum because you don't get it or don't want to get it. What do outward appearances and actions have to do with the matter at hand. I'll answer that for you.....NOTHING.

One more time. When it was decided to purchase the airport, Gary set up PRA Mentone with him at the head. He then transferred money from the PRA's account to his own account, called PRA Mentone. He then purchased the airport with PRA's money, but he failed to put title to the entity that actually paid for it. He put title to himself and his cronies. Only very few knew about this, mainly himself and his cronies. Why didn't he announce what he had done to the general membership, so as to be informed of what was happening to their treasury? Why was it kept secret for years?

When Maxie, Don and Jamie suspected something wasn't as it was made to appear, why were they stone-walled for years, why were they ostracized by the rest of the board so as to be unable to accomplish anything? Why couldn't they get the information that we, through them wanted to know? It was our money and they were our elected representatives......GET IT?

To this day, the information of how exactly our money was used has not been fully explained. The Mentone Board is further stalling by saying they're consulting with attorneys and accountants. Why the hell are they doing that if everything was set up properly and legally in the first place? Sounds to me like desperate attempts at ass-covering.

Now, if you can stand there and say that you still don't see anything sneaky or suspicious about what happened to $200,00 of the PRA's funds, you're beyond help, Tim. I'm sure that you are a fine, honest upstanding person, but if you really believe the bull-crap out of Mentone that it was all done so that each and every one of us 2,000 plus members wouldn't be hauled into court simultaneously and the lawyers have a grab at our homes, cars, tools and gyros, you win the gullibility award of the century. Tim, you can't possibly be as naive as you're painting yourself to be.

Let them put just a littler bit more time and effort into laying the cards on the table. I wonder why they refuse to do that? This would be a non-matter if at the first legitimate inquiry into ownership of the airport, Gary simply produced the deed that showed the PRA owned it, as it should have been all along. The truth now points to the fact that he didn't do that. He "SNEAKILY" put the deed in his own name (PRA Mentone) and therefore was afraid to show what actually was. This information had to be literally squeezed out so that we know as much as we do today. PRA Mentone is still stalling for time to get their ducks in a row.

If Gary and the rest of the PRA Mentone board volunteers 8 days a week at the Children's Home to change and wash diapers for 26 hours per day, that doesn't have one damn thing to do with what happened in Mentone as to cause all this uncertainty and mystery as to how we, who paid for the airport, seemingly had it stolen away and placed into private hands and we're left with crapola. Please, please Tim, don't pose another question that has been answered at least 50 times here. If you can't understand something, just go back to the beginning of this discussion in the original thread and continued here, sit down and really read the damn thing. You keep bringing up the same lame apologies and excuses that have been addressed over and over and asking for them to be addressed over and over.

PRA

11-20-2004, 07:37 PM

Ken,
I and others are still waiting to see all the "facts". With all your rambling, it sounds to me like you think you have them all. How about letting the rest of us know where you got your facts?

madmax

11-20-2004, 07:45 PM

From Pam's post #64

Maxie,
I don't need for you to clarify anything for me, I'm plenty capable of speaking my own mind, thank you.
And a fine job you have done!!! With your description of the setup of the two Organizations it is very clear the Don has been right all along. This is evident in what you and Don both post and the lack of paper work to show any other type of relationship. Apparently you are the official spokes person for PRA as you are the office manager and do all of your posting using PRA's sign-in. Therefore I agree that we should not question your knowledge of the way things are set up as I'm sure you do work for both of them and have first hand experience in this matter.

Just to answer your question of why I resigned, it's simple. I stayed for years and fought the very ridiculous fights of following the by-laws, and the Board backing down form their previously voted on and passed obligations, leaving someone else to clean up their mess. For all of those things I stayed, and at times actually got them to change there minds and do the right thing. As an example, that is why Tom is now on the Board. It was the right thing to do, regardless of the fight. But for this!!! To represent something to the members for their approval and then set it up the way you have clearly describe, which is exactly what I was afraid of, is just something I WILL NOT be a part of. So when the PRA Board refused to take a stand to correct this, then it was clear to me that the Board is not some where I needed to be. The membership had been required to give up issues of the Magazine, to give up the TV show, To suffer now with a really bad Web site, to have an Airport of their own, just to now find out, that some one else will benefit from their sacrifice.

So now I have a couple of questions for you. If the Museum is yet a third Corporation, owned By Glenn, and is housed in an even larger building than the PRA office. How much does the museum pay PRA Mentone each month to be there? and is it a 501 (c) Organization just like PRA Mentone that would make it eligible to receive a 501 (c) disbursement, such as the airport?

scott heger

11-20-2004, 07:48 PM

I have never met Gary G, and he may be the most honorable hard working guy in the world. But I am not buddy-emotionally attached to him either like some posters seem to be. Looking at this whole airport deal as a outsider, it really stinks. To have the guy that voted on the airport to happen, that was eventually being paid with others' funds, has no business controlling both entities. The Airport has become a much more valuable asset to PRA Mentone with its land value rising dramatically. Yet the financial viability of PRA contunues to slip.

To the others who would say that Scott H has not done a damn thing to help the PRA by contributing to the Airport , you are right. I live 2300 miles away one-way. I have visited the convention once, and it was not a great experience. I am not ever going to tow my gyro 4600+ miles to go fly it around for a weekend. No I am not going to come and volunteer to trim weeds, or paint a airport that is used by a single digit amount of PRA members yearly either. All you local folks that have contributed time, and attend-should. You are the minority and only ones that are getting any benefit from it. Hope you enjoy the $2,000 fireworks show the rest of us helped pay for. The other 95% of PRA members that just pay dues for a magazine and not much more should be able to retrieve all the money paid on this boondoggle. Very little effort is apparently made by the PRA Board to move the convention around the country (where more members could attend)yearly because it is a conflict to members (guess who) of both BOD's. If PRA Mentone wants to continue to run a Airport great, but pay us all back (with profit) all the benefit that it has received. There is way too much money involved to keep going on like this, with a clear conflict of interest. The offer I made to give PRA free rent for a office to run it's business for 3 years still stands. But we know that will not happen because it does not serve the insiders of PRA Mentone in this whole mess well. Does that tell you anything? PRA has no control of the biggest chunk of money it has ever spent(that benefits very few of its members), doesn't that worry some of you?

Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel, Ca N86SH

KenSandyEggo

11-20-2004, 07:50 PM

Pam, I got them right here, as I've said before. Like Tim, I'd suggest you go back to the beginning and read all the posts....never mind, I wouldn't wish that on a mangy dog that just took a bite out of my leg. Don was big help with his explanations and you yourself did a lot of enlightening on issues that were previously in the dark, at least to me.

PRA

11-20-2004, 08:09 PM

madmax

11-20-2004, 08:26 PM

No, Maxie, the museum is a a501 (c) 3 orgainzation just like P.R.A. It is in existance for the same reason that P.R.A. is, educational purposes.
Speaking of 501 (c) 3, & 4 whatever, here is something that I just thought about. Do you suppose the reason that PRA Mentone Inc was advised to be set up was because the airport is a landlord that receives income from hangar rents, building rents, and also sales fuel? I don't know but I would think that P.R.A. wouldn't be able to do all of that and still remain a 501 (c) 3 type of organizaton. I'm going to go research some facts.
--Pam

This did not answer anything.

If they could not be set up showing proper ownership then it is obvious they were not set up with the members best interest in mind period. Remember that the Web site and the Magazine always refer to the PRA owning the Airport. Why would they say that for all of these years if, like you say, it is not the case. Isn't that still an effort to draw new members by making them believe that they are joining an Organization that owns it's own Airport?

This also did not address the rental space for the Museum.

PRA

11-20-2004, 09:02 PM

Hope you enjoy the $2,000 fireworks show the rest of us helped pay for.
Scott,
In case you are not aware, the P.R.A. conventions held over the years here at Mentone usually gross between $20,000 to $25,000 each year. Expenses usually running bewteen $8,000 to $10,000 each year. And not all of it is from P.R.A. members. The general public entrance gate usually brings in between $$4,000 to $5,000 of the profit for the week. The concession stand brings in another $4,000 to $5,000 profit also. P.R.A. members camping and registration brings in the rest. So I suppose that a lot of local people who really enjoy coming to the convention and attending the fireworks display, helped pay for the fireworks also, not just P.R.A. And by the way, Mentone Inc has made nothing from any of these conventions. P.R.A. does not pay Mentone Inc. one dime for the use of the airport, hangars, and concession stand for the week. All the profit goes to P.R.A. So if any P.R.A. member thinks that he or she doe not benefit from Mentone Inc. I think they had better do the math. Two years ago when the P.R.A.'s convention was in Texas, P.R.A. fronted the Texas clubs a total of $9,000 until after the convention. They netted $3,600 back to P.R.A. So, rag on Mentone all you want but the conventions here have really subsidized P.R.A. for several years.

scott heger

11-20-2004, 09:47 PM

No Pam, I beg to differ. You want to talk about fronting money, I think the PRA wins hands down with their "gift" to PRA Mentone.The value of the Airport has increased far exceeding anything the convention brings in every year, yet NO benifit is passed on to the PRA. I have always understood that the convention is a profit making event, however it is not the only airport location that the PRA could make a profit with on a well run Convention. Do you really feel spending $2,000 on fireworks draws that many more people to attend a gyro event from 1,000s of miles away? The thought of 30 minutes of fireworks sure would convince me to visit the middle of Indiana as a deciding factor alone(NOT). That extra money sure would be better spent on trying to gain more members, and keeping the ones we have. You have to admit however that may go against the best interest of certain PRA Mentone locals that a have vested interest.

Any location with good weather, a good sized population center, and a large passenger transport airport nearby to bring people in should work. As a example, I think something like 30 or 40 gyros showed up this year to fly off dirt in the middle of the desert with no basic services available at El Mirage in September. You only get the true die-hards to show up under those conditions. Think a paved runway that had fuel, a hotel and a hamburger stand closer than 20 miles away that you didn't have to drive miles on a nasty dirt road to find would increase the size of this California gyro crowd? You bet it would, so don't pat yourselves on the back with the great crowd the Convention draws. Hold the thing in many population centers and it would do well. Hold it outside a entertainment City like Los Angeles,the S.f. Bay area, Las Vegas, or even Branson and it would do very well because the families would have something to do also while Daddy is out flying.

Pam, kindly look back at my post #71, and see if you could answer the question I posted to you for all of us. You may also wish to read the post I made regarding PRA membership driveunder that seperate thread, just a suggestion. I want to make it clear I have no bone to pick with you. I do however believe that the you should always consider what is in the best interest to the greatest amount of PRA members, which may be hard to do from where you sit. By the way on another note, I flew on friday to San Diego to knock Kenny J off his soap box, but the medication had already kicked in. He should be calm for awhile.

Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel, Ca N86SH

PRA

11-20-2004, 10:16 PM

Do you as office manager know the total amount of money PRA has put into this airport(with or without rent)?
Scott,
My apologies, I overlooked your post #71 by accident.

Yes, I have access to all of P.R.A. financial records since P.R.A. has been located in Mentone.

I do however believe that the you should always consider what is in the best interest to the greatest amount of PRA members, which may be hard to do from where you sit.
No, Scott, it isn't hard for me to do at all. Just ask my husband. I'm always trying to consider what is in the best interest to the greatest amount of P.R.A. members as they are the ones that pay me.

You may also wish to read the post I made regarding PRA membership driveunder that seperate thread, just a suggestion.
I'll go check this out.
--Pam

scott heger

11-20-2004, 10:18 PM

Pam , thank you for your concern....SCOTT

PRA

11-20-2004, 10:19 PM

By the way on another note, I flew on friday to San Diego to knock Kenny J off his soap box, but the medication had already kicked in. He should be calm for awhile.
I'd like to meet him in person. I bet he's a riot.

PRA

11-20-2004, 10:50 PM

Maybe I am the only one, but for the last several years I have not received any kind of renewal notice. I had to call Pam later when the magazine stopped. I would think that sending at least two notices after non-renewal might help to boost membership far beyond its currently shrinking state.
Scott,
I don't know the reason why you haven't received renewal notices. I do send out two sets of notices to the members. The first one is usually about five or six weeks before their due date. The second one usually two weeks before due date. If it happens to be a month where we have lost more than our usual 40 percent drop-out, I send out a third set of notices.
Thanks,
Pam

gyroplanes

11-20-2004, 11:19 PM

The only thing I haven't heard yet in this thread, is someone railing about misspellings and grammatical mistakes, the ultimate act of blowing smoke up asses. That surely has to be close down the pike somewhere.

Ken, In your post #43 you quoted Don Shoebridge and added the (sic) to correct Don's use of the word "mute" instead of "moot"

But more importantly because the PRA membership does not own the airport and this whole argument is a mute (sic) point.

By your own definition, I guess you are the ultimate smoke blower? :p

Scott, I'm sorry to hear that you will not drag your gyro across the country to attend a fly-in at Mentone or anywhere else. You and Don Shoebridge are missing what convention / fly-ins are all about. In 1995 we had attendees from nearly every state and around 6 foreign countries.

Spending PRA's money on the airport or anything else for that matter, has to be approved by the board of directors. The board of directors are elected by the membership.
If you don't like the way the current BoD functions vote us out, get a majority and elect new officers and sell the friggin' airport so we can end this silliness.

jamiebodie

11-21-2004, 03:37 AM

Pam, thanks for taking the time to be here. We may not all agree, but at least you are listening and trying to get to the bottom of this. I appreciate it.

Does the museum pay rent to PRA Mentone, and how much?

Thanks again,
jb

jamiebodie

11-21-2004, 03:41 AM

Tom, we can't end this thread you haven't answered my questions from the last thread yet. Much like an organization that we know if you think we won't like the answers you simply stay quite and hope it will go away. So, any answer?

Tom wrote:
If you don't like the way the current BoD functions vote us out, get a majority and elect new officers and sell the friggin' airport so we can end this silliness.

Your first idea is a good one, however I haven't heard anyone say they wanted to sell the airport. Actually quite the opposite we are trying to make sure it is a protected asset of the PRA.

Jamie

Heron

11-21-2004, 05:18 AM

Wow . . .you guys can write fast!
Two days on the road and I have to read all the pages to catch up . . .I am down here in the `"perfect south america" as one of our friends posted .
Since I decided not to renew my PRA membership I started this "sucks" thing, and I still dont have the answers I need to go back, airport discussion apart.
I really don´t care about Mentone airport, it will be a case for the courts to decide or we are going to get it back as promissed without any more fuss.
I care about a strong PRA, clear on its purposes and intentions, with programs and events sponsored, growing steadily over the years.
We can have that, we should have that and as of today I canot see it happening wiht the actual BOD, so I guess we have to vote them out and start anew.
At the first meeting in Pompano,I stressed de need for a suitabel area to practice our hobby and all agreed that this will be the first and most important project for our club.
When we have the men power and the money to do it, will PRA sponsor and co-sign our endeavour?
Pretty soon this club will have close to 100 members, are they to be an asset to the PRA, what can PRA do for them, why join?
Now let me have MOm´s lunch, kibe, one of my favorite meals.
Heron

Jerseywing

11-21-2004, 05:20 AM

Post # 22 pretty much tells it all doesn't it.
What other paperwork is needed? PRA mentone owns the airport.
I understand the issue (sorta) but isn't there some kind of advocasy group that can step in and get the real answers?
I posted once about how you get the impression that people here can't stand each other and don't trust each other. ( I think/hope thats not really true) I was castigated for it but if someone from the outside were to read these posts they would have to come to the same conclusion.
The BOD are elected, if they aren't doing their job (and I'm too new to this to really judge) then FIRE THEM.
But for Gods sake this thing is taking the organization down the toilet If you don't think so then why is there a 40% Non-renewal rate as stated above?
IMHO I don't see this issue EVER going away, because the next issue will be on why Mentone instead of Orlando, and who, and...,and...,and...
If it's going to remain such a contentious issue sell the damn thing! Get the $60,000.00 or whatever it is from PRA Mentone and make sure it never happens again.
If the same amount of energy and thought went into improving the PRA we'd make the EAA look like amateurs.
If we got hoodwinked then let the chips fall as they may, if we didn't then there are alot of people who may be owed apologies... that remains to be seen.
I've done a bit of business and learned that no matter how much you Think you know someone you can always be suprised.
Ronald Reagan said it best, "Trust But Verify"
I truly hope this gets resolved before there are no more pieces left to pick up

Respectfully,
Mike

GyroRon

11-21-2004, 06:24 AM

" If the same amount of energy and thought went into improving the PRA we'd make the EAA look like amateurs "

That is the problem. No one is doing anything more than typing messages here on the forum. Besides Jamie and Maxie, only one or two people have gone to the trouble to pick up a phone or to email these board members direct and ask the questions to them. Instead what we have here is a disease that is feeding on itself and is growing.

Look friends, I agree with alot of the gripes here. I think that the whole airport issue could be tweaked to be better for the PRA and to make everyone happy. I try real hard not to get sucked into this kind of thread, but it is really hard! But what I don't do, is go off the deep end like some here are doing. I personally don't care about any of this. Life was fine before the PRA came into my life and my life will be fine after the PRA is gone from my life. I will still enjoy flying my gyro and still enjoy the friends I have met at fly ins and on the forums. But......

If I did feel so strongly about this issue, as several of you guys here do, Then I'd pick up the F'ing phone and call the BOD and ask for answers. It is not the job of PRA BOD to monitor this forum and reply to every thing said here. But it IS their job to answer members questions if you call them directly. If they don't answer or their answer is obviously wrong or a lie then come here and let's tie them to the stake and burn them. But just pick up the phone and call these guys! jeez

barnstorm2

11-21-2004, 07:15 AM

Excellent posts Mike and Ron.

KenSandyEggo

11-21-2004, 07:26 AM

A non-profit can make a profit to stay afloat. They can pay salaries and expenses. They can't use the money to pay investors a return on their money, or just split the left-over money up at the end of the fiscal year and put it in their pockets, other than agreed-upon salaries. Many charities around here ask for donated autos that they then fix up or not and auction off. That's a pretty good profit margin, but they use the money for their programs, salaries and overhead. All charities have to make some "profit," or they would quickly fade away. This, at least, is how I understand it.

oldpilot

11-21-2004, 07:39 AM

This morning (Sunday 11-21-04) I went to the State of Indiana web site and then to the Corporations Divisions area. I paid $2.04 on my credit card to obtain this information below on-line and I now post it for everyones info - it's public information.

I have folllowed this thread from the beginning and skipped some of the longer replys just because I was on info overload but I did get the 'gist' of each one.

I believe there is a serious problem with the fundamental structure of PRA which begins with the BY-Laws and the way they are written and distribute the power and oversite in the PRA.

Secondly, I am overwhelmed with the silence from The PRA President. All organization Presidents have problems to deal with and are elected to deal with them on behalf of the membership - the President has not intervened to quell the restless DUES PAYERS! He needs to stand up and personally address the questions asked by the PRA members or step down and lets get someone who will or we vote him out when his term is up - WHOOPS, we can't vote him out - because of the way the BY-LAWS are written. Very crafty if you ask me. Anyway, the legal paperwork I could find on line from Oregon is posted below for your continued debate.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Name Searched On:
PRA Mentone (Legal)

Current Information
Entity Legal Name:
PRA MENTONE, INC.

Entity Address:
12296 W. 600 S. , MENTONE, IN 46539

General Entity Information:

Control Number: 1995041587

Status: Active

Entity Type: Non-Profit Domestic Corporation

Entity Creation Date: 4/28/1995
Entity Date to Expire:
Entity Inactive Date:

There are no other names on file for this Entity.

Registered Agent(name, address, city , state , zip):
Gerald Goldsberry
12296 W. 600 S.
MENTONE, IN 46539

Principals(name, address, city, state, zip - when provided)
Gerald Goldsberry
President
2235 State Road 42
MOORESVILLE, IN 46158

Glenn N. Bundy Jr.
Secretary
207 W. South St. PO Box 146
BURKET, IN 46508

Transactions:

Date Filed Effective Date Type
4/28/1995 4/28/1995 Articles of Incorporation

Corporate Reports:
Years Paid
1996 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003

Years Due
2004

Additional Services Available:

Generate an official Certificate of Existence/Authorization.
There is a fee of $20.00 for accessIndiana subscribers and a fee of $21.42 for credit card users. Example Certificate

FPRIVATE "TYPE=PICT;ALT=New Search"
All the entity information captured by the Indiana Secretary of State, pursuant to law, is displayed on the Internet. For further information, please call our office at 317-232-6576. Copies of actual corporate documents can also be ordered online.
If you encounter technical difficulties while using these services, please contact the accessIndiana Webmaster

oldpilot

Heron

11-21-2004, 07:40 AM

PRA can make as much money as possible using its resources, but at the end of the fiscal year all that money has to be spent in projects or given away to other non-profits.
A big Ball with lots of prizes and expenses paid can bring the balance in that account to "zero" . PRA is for the good of the membeship!
SElling the airport for what? Buy more that is what I think and help create and form new instructors with cheaper fares.
Join with local EAA and ASC personnel to make the chapters stronger and with adequate areas for practice.
MOre, bigger, better that is the motto. . .
thanks
Heron

KenSandyEggo

11-21-2004, 07:46 AM

I really can't think of anything more to post that will not say what I've repeated so many times. (HIP-HIP-HOORAY! HIP-HIP-HOORAY!). I think the real concerns of a lot of us have been addressed and I think there is a segment of us that will never see my point of view, just as I can't see theirs. I truly believe that this situation warrants the investigation by a governmental body. Funds have been taken from a 2,000+ membership organization, transferred to a private organization that used the money to buy an increasingly valuable piece of property that they deeded to themselves. Just because the "board" approved this does not make it legal. This goes contrary to a slew of laws regarding fiduciary duty, enriching oneself at the expense of others, fraud and possibly embezzlement....in my and other's opinion, not to mention the morality and ethical considerations here as evidenced by the clandestine way it was done and the years-long resistance to admitting this by PRA Mentone. It was forced out by concerned board members.

At the risk of alienating (or more so) people that I don't want to alienate, like the gracious Tim and many others, I'm not going to repeat over and over that which I've already said. I think this should move on to a disinterested party that knows the laws and has the clout to do a full investigation. PRA Mentone has clearly shown no desire or inkling to do so. All we have from them is interminable stalling and stone-walling. Someone that lives in the area should hopefully contact the local Attorney General or District Attorney's Fraud Division and ask them to do the job that PRA Mentone has been stalling and blocking for years. Let them have the final say-so as to whether laws have been broken and what to do about it. That's my opinion and take on this anyway. I know someone that would most likely cover any expenses for anyone that takes this up, though there really shouldn't be many, other than time.

I will reply to questions and matters that are brought up for discussion though. I'm not disappearing....(Boo....hiss). I just won't brow-beat my take on the situation that I've already posted numerous times.

Jerseywing

11-21-2004, 07:56 AM

Heron
I think it'd be great to have several regional facilities, They can be much cheaper as we don't need the same infrastructure (size) as FW folks do.
Now for the BUT...
At this point I think that buying another airport would destroy the organization. If it has taken this long and created this many bad feelings to see how Mentone is set up I don't see any way that there could ever be agreement on the where and how involved in another facility.
Sad isn't it

Mike

PRA

11-21-2004, 07:56 AM

But for Gods sake this thing is taking the organization down the toilet If you don't think so then why is there a 40% Non-renewal rate as stated above?
As far as I've been told and have seen for myself, the non-renewal rate has been 40% to 45% for at least the last 15 years.
However, the sign-up rate had always matched or exceeded that percent, so the membership was slightly growing. Over the first six months to a year after our past editor, Paul Abbott, retired the membership decreased by nearly 1,000 members. I'm not sure exactly what all to attribute that to but, it sure seemed to me that our members must have missed the Paul Abbott magazine. No offense meant to Stephanie Gremminger or Greg. Over the next five years the membership has decreased between 1,200 to 1,300 members. There has been so many different things happen in the P.R.A and with aviation, that it would be hard to say what has caused this drop.
If the same amount of energy and thought went into improving the PRA we'd make the EAA look like amateurs.
Mike,
I agree with your thought 100%.
I truly hope this gets resolved before there are no more pieces left to pick up

Respectfully,
Mike
You and me both, Mike, as I am employed by the P.R.A.
Pam, thanks for taking the time to be here. We may not all agree, but at least you are listening and trying to get to the bottom of this. I appreciate it.
Thank you, Jamie, and others for participating in this open line of "communication" attempt of mine. Now, I'm going to sit back a bit and see where this all takes us.
Finally, I have a life to re-build in our new house, since the house fire in May.
Everyone try to be nice to each other, even if you all can't agree.
Thanks,
Pam

KenSandyEggo

11-21-2004, 08:02 AM

KenSandyEggo

11-21-2004, 08:11 AM

Tom, a quick point that I mentioned in another post. Just because a corporate board approves a measure does not make it legal. They could be held responsible for irresponsible acts, civilly and in many cases criminally. It is not just a matter of voting them out if we don't like what they do. They accepted fiduciary responsibilities by running for office and getting elected that carry harsher and more serious ramifications than just getting "booted out."

KenSandyEggo

11-21-2004, 08:15 AM

Ron, haven't several people posted here that they phoned the prez, as I recall? Weren't they told to wait a "few months" because they're "consulting with accountants and attorneys?"

KenSandyEggo

11-21-2004, 08:19 AM

Steve, thanks for accessing and posting that document. I was just about to do that myself, but you beat me to it. (Yeah right ;) .)

Al_Hammer

11-21-2004, 08:29 AM

KenSandyEggo

11-21-2004, 08:32 AM

Al, "WOW!" again. Double :eek: :eek:

Well, I'm off again. They asked me to work another 13 hour shift like I did yesterday and I have to get ready and go. Rotten sick brats. :D

scott heger

11-21-2004, 08:37 AM

From Tom Milton in post #94

"Scott, I'm sorry to hear that you will not drag your gyro across the country to attend a fly-in at Mentone or anywhere else"

Tom , I attended the PRA Convention once when I was a newbie, and as stated before, was not impressed. I have also attended the local El Mirage event every year since I built my gyro in 1999. I will also say that I fly more hours at that event than any other pilot does on average. I fly my gyro almost every week, normally talking to 10 or so people about them, and consider myself a good ambassador to the sport. I realize that you make a substantial contribution yourself. I still work, like most of us, and cannot spend 5 days driving back and forth to Indiana to fly for a weekend, seem reasonable?

Now let me ask you a question, how many BOD members have come to California to attend El Mirage, or any West Coast gyro event in the last 5 years? I think the answer is zero or maybe one. That is part of the problem, BOD members have the same issues I do coming to Mentone. That is why the airport is so silly if funds are tight with the PRA. The appreciation of the property has increased severalfold, without any financial benefit to PRA Members. Tell me you don't see a problem with that, I sure do. I just believe the whole airport thing needs to be revisited. Restructuring seems to be in order. Removing conflicts of interest, you bet. If the majority of PRA members still want a airport that they don't own, and have no control over, just keep smoking up the issue and say we should end this thread. Times have changed, and so has the amount of money involved on this airport. It could all be legally transfered back to the PRA(another non profit Corp.), and that would be the end of it. The choice of keeping the Airport or not would then be in the hands of those that it should have been in the first place, the PRA BOD and its membership. Now that this stinking mess is all out in the open , your wish to end this thread and hope it will go away is pure dreaming.

Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel, Ca N86SH

barnstorm2

11-21-2004, 08:42 AM

Am I seeing seeing and understanding that Glenn Bundy and Gary Goldsberry are the true and sole owners of the airport property? What say ye, Glenn? I really thought it would have been shared by more than 2 people. That's a pretty tight and close-knit corporation. One person to make a proposal and one to yell out "Aye!" for approval. :rolleyes: This is getting "interestinger" and "interestinger" by the moment. Pam, do not feel obligated in any way to answer for Glenn. You are not him.

Ken,

As I read that PRA Mentone is the owner of the airport, which we have all known all along and Gary and Glenn are simply listed of principles of that org. Where does it say that they are all the principles of PRA Mentone?

barnstorm2

11-21-2004, 08:48 AM

Secondly, I am overwhelmed with the silence from The PRA President. All organization Presidents have problems to deal with and are elected to deal with them on behalf of the membership - the President has not intervened to quell the restless DUES PAYERS! He needs to stand up and personally address the questions asked by the PRA members or step down and lets get someone who will or we vote him out when his term is up -

Gary has replied, and so have several members of the Board. The problem is you have to go back to older threads. I will post some here after this post.

WHOOPS, we can't vote him out - because of the way the BY-LAWS are written.

Really? Please do expain this! I seen this name on the ballot, how is it possible he can not be voted out??

scott heger

11-21-2004, 08:53 AM

Tim, they are some of the controlling members of that Board(PRA Mentone). They make decisions on the Airport, period. They are the only ones that could fix this mess, but have not chosen to do so to date. How much more clear can that be?

Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel, Ca N86SH

barnstorm2

11-21-2004, 08:55 AM

From Gary Goldsberry:

To address the issues of Maxie Wildes and Dan Leslie: The show, Rotor Wing Sports, was only partially sponsored by PRA. Other sponsors were involved. After a couple of years, we, the PRA Board of Directors voted to stop the sponsorship from PRA. It was costing too much for the new members that we were receiving. It was a good show, but it wasn’t available to most people because of the different satellite stations, and it was hard to find.

As to the video tapes kept in the PRA office, I am not aware of this issue. Dan Leslie has been given a free ad in PRA’s Rotorcraft magazine for several years to try and help him and PRA promote gyros and further the movement.

The Editor position, again, was voted on by the PRA Board of Directors, because of complaints by the members and advertisers. The Editor was informed of the problems on many issues of the magazine and they did not get changed. The Board of Directors voted to replace the Editor.

To address the website issue: PRA was paying Jamie Bodie $150 per month to keep the website up and up to date. There were a lot of mistakes and misinformation that should have been updated. Yes, Jamie received his information from the magazine Editor, so it was a “double edged sword”.

We have, and still are, cutting costs wherever we can to keep PRA a viable association. The website is very bad and we are trying to get it better.

The Life Membership list is available to anyone wanting it.

To address the Dana Bowman problem at last year’s convention: After the convention, he let it be known that he thought he should have been paid more. By phone I asked him if he thought that he had been cheated out of some money and he said, “No”, but he thought he should have been paid $1000 more. I paid him that out of my own pocket. The money paid to him was from donors, not the PRA. The problem was that we didn’t have a written contract with him. From this we learn and try not to make that mistake again.

To address the Convention in Texas: The statement that anyone in PRA was trying to make the PRA Convention in Texas fail is absolutely beyond understanding. The Convention Chairman had as many past records as available as to what worked and what didn’t. Yes, this was a totally different situation. It wasn’t the regular time of year for the Convention, which I thought at the time the Board voted for it was a bad idea. I supported the Convention in Texas 100% and so did the Board of Directors. My personal take on the problem was that there was too much spent on permanent improvements made to the airport that cost a lot of money (water & electricity). Larry Neal, the Texas Convention Chairman is a very nice man, and he and the other Texas members worked hard to make the Convention a success. But, his expectations of a large crowd didn’t happen. Even a lot of the Texas members didn’t show up. Many people were unable to attend on Memorial Day weekend because of family gatherings, graduations, etc., even with the mailings and advertising that were made.

We have never had a Convention not make money. Some were as low as $1000, others as high a $10,000, but we have always had a profit of some sort. The Texas Convention lost $6500. I also questioned why the people who did the entertainment were paid, when the same entertainment had never been paid for doing the same thing at Bensen Days and Mentone.

Yes, we had a Regional Fly-in at Mentone at the regular time of the Convention, but it was 2 months after the Convention in Texas. Manufacturers, members and CFIs stopped by on their way to OshKosh, as they have done in previous years. There was no Board meeting or other events as at the Convention. It was for fun and use of the airport…not a big deal to distract from the Convention.

To address Maxie’s last statement: There have always been 2 Corporations, the PRA and PRA Mentone, which includes the airport, it’s property and the museum. This was done for protection of the parent, Popular Rotorcraft Association the organization itself and the magazine. Each is a Non-profit organization. By doing it this way, we pay no property taxes for the airport and the museum, because of it’s educational and historic values to rotorcraft. Each non-profit organization has a different non-profit status to fall within the guidelines of the state of Indiana and the Federal non-profit guidelines. Our attorney and accountant help set this up to make sure that we comply with the regulations for non-profit status. This is very hard to do and takes a lot of effort to comply. We did all of this when we purchased the airport and moved the PRA office from Clinton, Louisiana to Mentone, Indiana. Popular Rotorcraft Association owns both non-profit organizations. They do have 2 separate names. Both are legal with the state of Indiana and the IRS. The Board of PRA Mentone has 5 Board members and the Board of PRA has 11 members.

When this was questioned last year, each of the PRA Board of Directors were sent a copy of all the Indiana corporation paperwork, and I thought that had answered the questions. At the Bensen Days Board meeting, Maxie Wildes and Dan Leslie made a motion to have the same Board of Directors for both PRA and PRA Mentone. Their vote failed, and they both resigned in front of the Board. I stated that I would sign any statement that both organizations belong to the PRA and it’s members. They wouldn’t accept this and both left the meeting.

PRA

11-21-2004, 08:59 AM

I believe there is a serious problem with the fundamental structure of PRA which begins with the BY-Laws and the way they are written and distribute the power and oversite in the PRA.
Secondly, I am overwhelmed with the silence from The PRA President. All organization Presidents have problems to deal with and are elected to deal with them on behalf of the membership - the President has not intervened to quell the restless DUES PAYERS! He needs to stand up and personally address the questions asked by the PRA members

In a post by Jeff S (I think) either in this thread or the Gary Goldsbery thread, he posted Gary's replies to questions that Jeff asked in behalf of members posting here on this forum. If you can locate it, read to see what actions were told are being taken by the boards of both organizations.
You will probably never see issues concerning P.R.A. addressed here by the officers of P.R.A. as they do not feel this is the proper place to address the issues. The proper place is in the memberships magazine, where ALL the members will be able to see. I guess we'll all have to keep an eye out for this issue to be addressed there.

Am I seeing seeing and understanding that Glenn Bundy and Gary Goldsberry are the true and sole owners of the airport property? What say ye, Glenn? I really thought it would have been shared by more than 2 people. That's a pretty tight and close-knit corporation. One person to make a proposition and one to yell out "Aye!" for approval.

Ken, I don't know why the "original" names of the board members for PRA Mentone Inc. weren't listed as Glenn wasn't even on the board of P.R.A. much less on the board of PRA Mentone Inc. when it was astablished. The original board members of Mentone Inc. were:
Gary Goldsberry (President)
Art Evans (Vice-President)
Roger Wood (Secretary/Treasurer)
Since then there have been board members step down and new ones step up.
The current board members are:
Gary Goldsberry (President)
Art Evans (Vice-President)
Glenn Bundy (Secretary/Treasurer)
Stony Stiles (long time P.R.A. member)
Max Faulkner (long time P.R.A. and local resident)

Thanks,
Pam

barnstorm2

11-21-2004, 09:00 AM

I spoke with Gary the other night on the questions that have been raised in this thread. His prompt reply to my phone call and answers to my questions were polite and most appreciated. The answers here may not satisfy everyone, but after speaking to him, I understand his answers and have a better feeling of why things are the way they are, and his desire to do the right thing. Will everyone be satisfied with this post?... probably not. But, it wasn't meant to solve all issues. It was meant only to answer some of the questions that have been presented here the best that I can, based on Gary's comments in a short phone call. The answers below are in MY text, taken from my phone conversation with Gary. I am responsible for any miss quotes, or misunderstandings. I don't think Gary would mind if I called again for a follow up set of questions in the future, if needed.

1) Does PRA or PRA Mentone actually own the airport? Yes, PRA Mentone owns the airport. (I can hear it now, "Show me the paper!") PRA Mentone is a wholly owned subsidiary of the PRA. Current documentation that has been sent to those who have requested it may not show this as clearly as wished by some members, but that's all the documentation there is. Some have accepted it, others have not, and Gary wants to address this by making changes to the documentation, without defeating the purpose of having the two entities separated in the first place. The problem is, how do you separate PRA from PRA Mentone so that frivolous lawsuits can't reach the PRA members, but still have PRA members in charge of PRA Mentone? Hard nut to crack.

To solve this problem, Gary is currently working with the new Treasurer of the PRA and some legal advisors to create documentation that more clearly states this relationship without making the PRA members at risk of a lawsuit in case of an accident at PRA Mentone. The PRA and PRA Mentone are separate entities with a different BOD's, except for the President. The President of the PRA is the President of PRA Mentone. The President of the PRA selects the other BOD's of PRA Mentone. This selection has been kept local, to involve those in the most immediate area. This has been how it was done and was always “understood” (assumed) to be the case. Gary is at present trying to edit the wording into the PRA Mentone by-laws to more clearly reflect the relationship and authority of the two entities.

2) If PRA actually owns the airport, why was this second non profit organization created? The second organization was created to protect the PRA BOD's and the PRA members from lawsuits initiated by accidents that may occur at the Mentone airport in the future.

3) It has been stated publicly, in the Rotorcraft magazine, and on the PRA website that the PRA owns the Mentone airport. What direct relationship exists between PRA and PRA Mentone that proves the PRA owns the airport? As stated above the current documentation is believed to show the relationship. Gary is working to create documentation that more clearly states this relationship without making the PRA members at risk of a lawsuit in case of an accident at PRA Mentone.

4) Are there any documents that make the BOD of PRA Mentone answerable to The PRA BOD and/or its members? The PRA Mentone By-Laws (currently under revisement) will show this relationship more clearly. All of the revisions are hoped to be ready for review by the PRA Board at the next Board meeting at Bensen Days. This includes, by-laws for both entities, financials for both entities, and the BOD's for both entities.

5) Who are the Board of Directors of PRA Mentone and how do they get elected? As stated above, they are selected by the President of the PRA. The current Board Members of PRA Mentone are Gary Goldsberry, Glenn Bundy, Art Evans, Tony Stiles, and Max Falkner.

6) What money was put up as collateral or payment for the Mentone airport purchase and by which members? None. The cost of the airport was $155,000.00. The PRA paid a down payment of $50,000.00, and the owner, Bob Clupper, held the note of $105,000.00 at 5% interest, on $1000.00 payments. The payments were paid by the PRA making $1000.00 lease/rental payments to PRA Mentone, and PRA Mentone then making the $1000.00 payments to Bob Clupper. Since then, Bob Clupper sold the balance to a mortgage company, who then sold it again. There are about 2 years left on the note. At the end of the note, PRA is not required to continue the $1000.00 lease notes to PRA Mentone, but will continue to pay something to PRA Mentone ($100 or $200 per year) to keep the separation of the organizations legal.

7) How much money is paid by the PRA for airport mortgage payments/rental/leasing each month? $1000,00 a month.

8) Do PRA members have access to all financial records for the PRA upon request? Yes. The new Treasurer for the PRA is currently reviewing the financials of the PRA and PRA Mentone, and on completion of the audit, the details will be available to any members who request it. Hopefully by the next convention.

9) Do PRA members have access to all financial records for PRA Mentone upon request? Yes. Same as above.

10) Can PRA members get a listing of the by-laws of PRA Mentone upon request? Yes. Same as above.

11) If a new president is elected to PRA is he also the President of PRA Mentone and do the by-laws for PRA Mentone verify that? As stated earlier, it was always “understood” to be the case that the PRA President is also the PRA Mentone President. The wording of the By-laws can only be changed by vote of the Board. Gary hopes to get that wording changed at the next Board meeting.

12) When the Mentone Airport is paid off, is PRA still required to pay PRA Mentone a rental fee, or any other fees? No. Mentone is currently only able to hold its own. But, it is getting more lucrative. The profit from the PRA Convention and other events belong to the PRA, not PRA Mentone. The last PRA Convention at Mentone, Indiana netted $4000.00 profit from concessions, and $3000.00 from other income. Income from events and rent, belong to the PRA to help fund the organization, magazine and web site. If conventions are held in places other than Mentone, it is a break-even venture at best. The modifications/upgrades to the airport and the continued use of the airport for future conventions and other events is to allow PRA to make that profit.

All right... Jeff's turn. What did I get from this conversation? I don't think any hanky-panky is going on, I'm a pretty good judge of people when I question them about their actions. People give away their deceits under scrutiny most of the time. I think Gary is doing what he thinks is best for all of us. I think that maybe all the bucks sent to PRA Mentone may have been better used being distributed in some way to the clubs... Gary feels (in my opinion) the best way to serve the clubs in the long run is to make Mentone a profit center with it's museum and rental income and push money back to the PRA. (This is just my take, it may be wrong) Even though I'll probably never go to Mentone, if Gary is right and it does start to fund the PRA, and those funds come down to the clubs in some way, like improving the magazine and website, then I have to say bravo.

Jeff Spradling

more still.............

barnstorm2

11-21-2004, 09:02 AM

As a member of this forum, and now a member of the board, you will find that I am happy to answewr (or get answers) any questions you might have.

Could you imagine not having the airport? What if 9/11 had been more like 7/25 .... do you think we would have a place to hold a convention? I think not!

As for the Mentone Mofia ..... I have lived here for 1 year now .... And I don't see any group of people that control things, only people that give up alot of there time, and money to make the convention happen each year. I got to be involved in that group this year, and let me tell you what ..... That is alot of work, with little to no time for anything else.

If I had a gyro to fly .... I probably would not have flown at all during the convention. Just not enough time in the day to cover all the bases.

I am looking forward to ROC, so that I can goof-off and have some fun, and let others do the work!! (just kidding) I will be glad to help out where I can!

Anyone who needs to "speak to a board member" .... here I am !!

Right here on the forum.

:D

and we have many good posts from Tim. Try reading through some!

barnstorm2

11-21-2004, 09:04 AM

Jamie,

Obiously you still have a bone to pick with the old board members.

Take a look at the legal documentation that the IRS has on their website for "not-for-profit" organizations.

1.) the airport is registered to (NOT OWNED) by PRA mentone inc.

2.) PRA mentone inc. IS A "NOT FOR PROFIT" Organization.

3.)PRA mentone Inc. has a board of directors.

4.) ALL OF THE PRA Mentone Inc. BOARD MEMBERS ARE PRA MEMBERS - just like me and (you?)
I asked to be added to the board of PRA Mentone Inc. The PRA BOD(present group) VOTED not to change anything at this time. I respect the BOD vote.

5.) The IRS says that we cannot sell the airport without dissolving PRA mentone inc. ..... PRA Mentone Inc. cannot be disolved without 100% vote from the PRA mentone inc BOARD. (the board are all PRA members) (are you?)

6.) IF the board dissolved the organization, the IRS still mandates that all profits can only go to another "not for profit" organization. NO PERSONS OR PERSON CAN TAKE POSSESSION OF PROPERTY, OR MONIES FROM THE SALE!

7.) THE ONLY OTHER "NOT FOR PROFIT" ORGANIZATION LISTED UNDER THE PRA MENTONE INC DIRECTORY IS THE "PRA". The members of the PRA own the PRA. Therefore WE (the members..... does that include you jamie?) own the PRA, and PRA Mentone Inc.

To all of my fellow PRA members: I believe that the state of Indiana, the IRS, and my personal Legal representation know what thay are talking about.

I have gone to the extent of seeking their help in answering this question once and for all.

bottom line: The pra mentone inc. is nothing more then a "not for profit" organization with a board of directors that are ALL PRA MEMBERS.

pra mentone has no ownership.
pra mentone has no share holders
pra mentone only exists because legally The PRA cannot afford the liability, and the "not for profit" would come under question.

The only document that gives any help to this is the register of the state of Indiana which lists PRA Mentone Inc. And the only other listing under PRA Mentone Inc. is the PRA association.

Your barking up a dead tree Jamie. The only skeletons that I have dug up are the ones that are in YOUR closet, And I am not going to speak of them here.

MJ please don't take this wrong, but I see no back-handed, or undermined doings by the past BOD. I have seen the records that show what was being spent for office space rent in Louisiana before mentone airport was purchased.

The PRA is not spending any more money for the Airport and it's office then was being spent before.

The Airport is a PRA investment. That means that We members have invested in property that We members get to decide what to do with in the future.

We can make money for the PRA by renting the airport out to other clubs.

It's not a bad thing. Some people just got ticked because they could not control it, and throw thier weight around.

I stand behind the PRA and it's members.

This one says alot.

barnstorm2

11-21-2004, 09:10 AM

Tom is of course one of those 'silent board members' we NEVER hear anything from....

Hi all!

Just thought I'd jump in the mud here and give you my thoughts.
I have been on the PRA board longer than anyone in history.

Is this good or bad? I'm not sure myself. But I'll tell why it turned out this way.

I am a fan of term limits and several years ago I would not accept a nomination for the board when my term had ended. It was a move I would live to regret since it was at that time that the board voted to buy the Mentone Airport.

My goal, as a board member, was to for us to have a sport rotorcraft museum. It was a dream shared by Ken Brock, but not by many others. Owning our own airport was beyond my wildest dreams for the PRA. Even the EAA didn't own an airport. I was very proud of the PRA for making this decision.

I did worry that the airport might become the anchor that would drag down our small ship. When I saw that our mortgage payment was going to be less than we were paying for our funeral home space, I was elated. We finally had an address and home of our own. A true "World Headquarters" we could be proud of.

I have to tell how I learned of the PRA's purchase.

I was attending a fireworks club meeting in Rochester, Indiana. I told my friend that I wanted to visit an airport that was for sale not too far away. It was once owned by a world famous aerobatic pilot and had a house on the premises. It was a retirement dream for a flying nut like me.

We stopped and met Bob Clupper, who turn out to be one of the nicest people I've ever met. Bob was the current owner and wanted to sell it all and tour the country in a motorhome.... I was relieved and saddened when he told us he had just sold the place. Relieved because I really didn't want to move so far from home and because this place had to be worth a half million and my bubble was burst. I was expecting a grass strip and a farm house, this place was one of the nicest private airports I'd ever seen. Bob said he had offered it to his skydiving club but they weren't interested. He said he then sold it to another flying club. When he told me they were gyro people and that it was called the PRA I nearly wet myself with joy. What a time to leave the BOD, I thought. This was the PRAs finest hour. We had a home.

I still feel this way. I must say the PRA conventions long ago replaced Christmas as my most anticipated event of the year. I have attended every PRA convention (except Paso Robles, CA. I had just started teaching, the convention date was moved back and I would have had to miss my first week or two of teaching and the first two weeks or so of school)since 1974.

As a board member you get intimately involved in making sure this annual event we have becomes a reality. You will never know how much work is involved in hosting a convention until you have done so. We have had many offers over the years and it is difficult to judge whether a chapter or an individual can sucessfully pull it off.

A good club, from Oklahoma, with competetent people, arranged for what I thought would be the Mother of all conventions (not inventions. It was to be held in Bartlesville, OK. the home of the "aviation friendly" Phillips Petroleum Company. Phillips offered to allow us the use of their giant municipal airport that boasted camping facilities and other amenities. Phillips even offered free fuel to participants as they did for another annual fly-in that meets there. The town was behind it and it looked like a great time was to be had by all. As we got down to the wire for planning, as I recall, an unrealistic and unachievable insurance requirement was thrown in that killed the whole deal. If I recall correctly, the Indiana club salvaged our annual event by securing Greencastle airport near Indianapolis as our last minute site and carried the last minute burden of hosting the event.

The thought of having our own airport, at the ready, in case another situation like this arose eased my mind as a board member. This turned out to be the board's impetus for buying the airport.

End of part one

barnstorm2

11-21-2004, 09:11 AM

And of course part two of the post from the board member whos posts apparently are never seen...

PART TWO

I'm a slow typer and was afraid I'd loose the hours of work that went into my little note above........ I resume.

I can't tell you the dates or even the years, but Art Evans, Gary Goldsberry and Glenn Bundy have been the motivating force for the conventions held at Greencastle, Indiana and Brooksville, Ohio. They had a dedicated band of club members that literally gave their blood, sweat & tears to make our conventions a reality.

Buying an airport in Indiana meant the "local" crew would be stuck with making the airport useable as a convention site. We knew this would take years. By the way, I think I might have been the most local at the time. Mentone is 96 miles from my home in Illinois. Some have accused that the Indiana bunch had an airport for their own use. I have never taken off or landed in anything at the Mentone airport to this day.

I don't recall where it was to be held. (Hearne Texas maybe?) but the next scheduled convention started to crumble and once again the board was scrambling to make it happen. I suggested Mentone be used , but Art Evans (then VP?) suggested Greencastle for expedience and familiarity.......UNLESS I WANTED TO CHAIR THE CONVENTION AT MENTONE.

It became a life changing moment for me. What the heck, my teaching job had just gone away and I was unemployed. The Indiana and Ohio clubs offered to work on the infrastructure if I'd tackle the convention planning itself. I said yes. It was so much fun I chaired the next one as well. It was my turn to say thanks for all of the wonderful conventions I had attended. At this point I had risen to the office of vice president of the PRA, Chaired two conventions and seen Glenn Bundy carry out my dream of having our own museum. It was time to consider term limits again. My only other goal in PRA was to win it's two most coveted awards, The Helen Darvassy Award and the "Man and Machine" The Helen Darvassy award went away but I still have my eyes on earning the "Man And Machine" award someday. Heck, your never too old, right?

Thanks to the internet and being the owner of SnoBird Aircraft I met a man named Dave DeWinter. Dave was intelligent and enthusiastic and had a good vision of what the PRA could become.

I encouraged Dave to run for the Board of Directors and sucessfully promoted him to take my place on the board when my term was up. I believe that any organization needs new ideas to grow and prosper. Dave only disappointed me when he recently resigned. If I recall Dave had been undergoing changes in his life and talked of giving up flying. I thnk Dave was forced to resign when he was unable to make one of the mandatory meetings required of board members.

I attempted to rejoin the board when I heard allegations that a group was planning to take over the PRA, move it south and sell off the airport.
I have no objection to the PRA moving it's headquarters. I was on the board when the PRA occupied a small office at Ken Brock MFG. and later when it was moved to a small room in a funeral parlor. It's the will of the members that eventually control the PRA. I just wanted to make sure that the control of the PRA was not shifted by trickery. I have too much of my life in this organization to let that happen.

As it turned out I too was to be affected by the mandatory meeting rule. I went to Florida for Bensen days just to attend the board meeting. I got there just as it ended. Now I had to make the convention meeting or I couldn't be there to accept the nomination.

The next convention, it was revealed, would be in Texas. (been to a convention there before, no problem) OOPS!, BIG problem. The convention was moved to Memorial day to avoid the mid Summer Texas heat. It was the weekend my daughter would graduate from high school and the board meeting was scheduled for the day of her graduation ceremony.

I notified the board that I couldn't be there and could only accept over the phone, if nominated. This was unprecedented and I was informed that the bylaws said "must be present to accept". I asked if the meeting date could be moved ahead a day? It was, I flew down and lost the seat anyway. PRA can be a real hardship sometimes.

I'm back on the board now. I guess I was next-in-line and won the seat when Roger Wood resigned from the board. I heard a lot of very hurtful things at this time. I was told that some fellow board members said I was a "do nothing" board member, a yes man to the President, and that the president himself tried to keep me off the board and was forced to adhere to the bylaws and seat me on the board.

Over the years the PRA survived the Darvassy v/s Bensen battles, the Brock move to California, challenges by Curtis Steele of Ohio. George Charlet taking the PRA to Louisiana and Buck Buchannon from the D.C. area's never ending diatribes about the Mentone Airport purchase.

I've been accused of being a member of Gary's Indiana mafia, and one of the PRA "fat cats with their motorhomes who forgot about the little guy" by a PRA naysayer in Colorado. And, most painfully "A guy who is known for doing nothing" by one of our own.

In the end the only thing that matters to me is that the PRA is prospering and healthy. We know that it isn't right now. We have one of the biggest, unfounded divisions in the PRA's history.
I've seen no signs that anyone was attempting to take over the PRA and sell the airport, and actually, so what if they did? What would happen? We have been offered an office in a used car lot. The PRA's money problems would be temporarily solved tanks to Art, Gary & the board's wise purchase. We would once again have the yearly problem of setting up our convention tent, but PRA would survive. I know PRA would. It would because it is, and always was, run by people who had the PRA's best interest in mind.

PRA

11-21-2004, 09:14 AM

Tim,
Thanks for finding the letter from Gary Goldsberry and re-posting it here.
--Pam

barnstorm2

11-21-2004, 09:15 AM

This says alot in just alittle text.

Let's forget Mentone airport is an airport. Let's just say that the PRA bought a bond and as a bonus they got free rent for their office. Not only is that a good deal, the bond is now worth over double it's face value.

I don't know much about investments, but I've offered to buy out PRA Mentone several times so they can walk away from "the big mistake". No takers.

oldpilot

11-21-2004, 09:17 AM

I have several points to make this morning.

The first one I made by posting the PRA Mentone, Inc Corporation document I obtained on-line this morning. It is clear that GOLDSBERRY and BUNDY Jr. and the Principles of the Corporation.

Then I find out Pam Bundy is the PRA Office Manager (Secretary) which makes her an employee of PRA and if she was one of my Office Managers/Secretary I would terminate her for some of her remarks made toward PRA members on this Forum - no matter how offensive she might find the comments. If she was not posting those comments under the PRA name as she has been doing then I would not terminate her. She has a right to speak freely as an individual but not as an employee of the Corporation and appearing to represent the Corporation in her remarks. What the heck is going on at PRA - is there no discipline? No employee conduct rules or guidelines - Are her comments on behalf of PRA approved by our President Goldsberry and if not WHY NOT?

The BYLAWS are at the Root of many of our PRA problems as I said in an earlier post today. ARTICLE IV. MEMBERSHIP. B4 states:

"All Life, and Regular Members shall have voting rights. Only Life Members may serve on the Board of Directors or hold office in this corporation."

What kind of crap is that!!! ANY member should be eligible for office!

ARTICLE VI. OFFICERS. A2. States:

"The President, Executive Vice President, Secretary and Treasurer, or Secretary-Treasurer shall be elected by the Board of Directors at the annual meeting of the Board of Directors and shall hold office as stated in Article 7(b) until their successors are elected and qualified." {underline emphasis added by ME}

The Officers should be elected by the membership!!!

This is all contrary to conventional wisdom and we are seeing why a setup like this will eventually result in the destruction of an organization. As long as the OFFICERS kiss up to the BOARD Members they can get reappointed (elected) regardless if the Membership wants to vote them out!

It is time for a change in the fundamental structure of the PRA and the evidence is clear.

The final Nail if our Coffin is this:

"ARTICLE VII. BOARD OF DIRECTORS. E.4.
Office of the President. This person must have had three years experience on the Board before being eligible for election to this office."

This is why NO ONE in the regular membership can get elected and straighten things out. Many of you have private or public sector experience as an OFFICER on a Board or a President of something and a 3 year requirement of being elected to the PRA Board before you are eligible to be elected President of PRA is absurd. These By-Laws are the REAL PROBLEM. This is why we cannot get answers and solutions and forward movement in PRA and PRA Mentone. We have employees lashing out at members and wonder why our renewal rate is plumeting (sp?).

I have not addressed any of the specific bitches in the thousand or so previous threads because I am one who is convinced noe of this would have gone this far if the POWER, ELIGIBILITY for OFFICE and OVERSIGHT control were cleaned up in the By-Laws.

Just my opinion...as a PRA member

oldpilot

barnstorm2

11-21-2004, 09:25 AM

Steve,

I am a member of several other clubs with very simular by-laws. My yacht clubs rules are MUCH stiffer to become a board member! It simply makes sure you have a vested intrest in the PRA to become a board member. You have to be a life member and a member of the PRA for ___ years. I forgot how many years.. Can someone fill in the blank?

To get a new pres.. easy. Vote in the board members you want. TA DA.

jamiebodie

11-21-2004, 09:49 AM

PRA

11-21-2004, 09:59 AM

Then I find out Pam Bundy is the PRA Office Manager (Secretary) which makes her an employee of PRA and if she was one of my Office Managers/Secretary I would terminate her for some of her remarks made toward PRA members on this Forum - no matter how offensive she might find the comments. If she was not posting those comments under the PRA name as she has been doing then I would not terminate her. She has a right to speak freely as an individual but not as an employee of the Corporation and appearing to represent the Corporation in her remarks.
So much for my trying to open lines of "communications" guys.
Stick a fork in me, I done.
Bye

barnstorm2

11-21-2004, 10:32 AM

These By-Laws are the REAL PROBLEM. This is why we cannot get answers and solutions and forward movement in PRA and PRA Mentone. We have employees lashing out at members and wonder why our renewal rate is plumeting (sp?).

Funny, I would think it more likely because of a much of sore-heads jumping to conclutions, making knee-jurk statements about people and issues they don't really know about and generally being so non-constructive and abusive that no board member (and now PRA member) is willing to answer questions and post here. Then of course they will complain about how the board members are so silent and never say anything!

Good JOB! :mad: again!

Brent_Brown

11-21-2004, 12:24 PM

I was a member whan the airport was bought and said it was bad then and see what has become of us now. I have to said I told you so.
When I siad the money could be used to help chapters get its members training somehow I was jumped on and yes Ken J. was one jumping on too. I emailed him about it and he liked better but was not hot about it. This was on the old conference long time ago.
I wish it was never bought and we got the training we might have more members by now and safer ones at that.
Ity is sad that the only game in town is so hard to work with.

GyroRon

11-21-2004, 02:59 PM

Ron, haven't several people posted here that they phoned the prez, as I recall? Weren't they told to wait a "few months" because they're "consulting with accountants and attorneys?"

Ummm.... No I believe it was just one person who decided to call him. I said I was going to call him, but after I reflected on the whole thing I decided I didn't honestly care about all this enough to ruin the friendships I have with Gary and his Wife and other members of the current board.

Jamie and Maxie have made many attempts to get the questions answered and to make changes, as board members, but they were outvoted and finally they decided to quit the board. Since then, I don't believe they have been in personal contact with Gary over these issues, but I may be wrong about that.

So to my knowledge, only Texas Armillio is the only person to pick up a phone and call Gary for answers.

And btw, I don't think Dan Leslie quit the Board over this matter. And I don't know if I think it is fair to include him in these discussions. I would not doubt that he feels the same way on this subject as alot of you guys do, but I believe his reason for quitting the board was based on the cancellation and non payment for work he was authorized to do with his rotorwing TV show. I believe the board voted for him to do more shows and he did them and then when it was time to be paid, the board basically told him they weren't going to pay. NOW THIS IS NOT CONFIRMED AND IS NOT TO BE TAKEN AS FACT.... IF YOU WANT TO KNOW WHY DAN QUIT THE BOARD, I SUGGEST CALLING DAN AND ASKING HIM. I am just pointing out that I don't think he quit over this airport issue.

GyroRon

11-21-2004, 03:21 PM

+

Ron have you called? What answers did you get, share them with us. You seem to know the solution, and think that getting to it is very easy, what did you find out when you called? I have spoken with everyone involved about these issues and so has Maxie, neither of us had any luck getting answers. However, your statements seem that getting answers is very easy. Please share with us what you found out.

jb

jb

Jamie, I don't know how many times I have to say it. I don't Care enough about it to go out of my way to make a call. I don't care if he came out and said " Hey suckers, you guys just bought me a airport " And I would not care if he came forward with whatever proof or changes are needed to make everyone happy.

But I am not one of the ranters or ravers. If I cared enough to take this discussion to the level that some here have, I would have at least called Gary to see what he has to say Before I slaughter the man publicly as many here have and are doing.

I know what your probably thinking Jamie. If I don't care about the issue, then why tell people what they should do. Well your right, I don't have to even read these threads. If I don't feel like calling the guy then why should I care how others here are posting. Well I don't know. I am as curious as the next guy how my favorite soap opera will continue. And sometimes I feel like popping in here and throwing out my two cents.

GyroRon

11-21-2004, 03:24 PM

So much for my trying to open lines of "communications" guys.
Stick a fork in me, I done.
Bye

Take it from me Pam. It is hard to please everyone here on the forum. I personally don't see your posts here as " offical " posts by the " PRA "

You work for the PRA and therefore registered as the PRA. I wouldn't get too upset about those comments. Please stick around.

Heron

11-21-2004, 03:35 PM

Mike
We are only a small part on the PRA spectrum, and this will be solved in time.
After some time we can still enjoy our friends and the programs that I trust will be created by the new PRA.
WE need the infra structure to grow, people and facilities are the base for the future.
At least five regional airports would be necessary.
thanks]
Heron

jamiebodie

11-21-2004, 03:36 PM

Ron wrote:
Jamie, I don't know how many times I have to say it. I don't Care enough about it to go out of my way to make a call. I don't care if he came out and said " Hey suckers, you guys just bought me a airport " And I would not care if he came forward with whatever proof or changes are needed to make everyone happy.

Understood, now please stop telling us we need to call if you haven't done so yourself.

jb

jamiebodie

11-21-2004, 03:41 PM

And btw, I don't think Dan Leslie quit the Board over this matter. And I don't know if I think it is fair to include him in these discussions. I would not doubt that he feels the same way on this subject as alot of you guys do, but I believe his reason for quitting the board was based on the cancellation and non payment for work he was authorized to do with his rotorwing TV show. I believe the board voted for him to do more shows and he did them and then when it was time to be paid, the board basically told him they weren't going to pay. NOW THIS IS NOT CONFIRMED AND IS NOT TO BE TAKEN AS FACT.... IF YOU WANT TO KNOW WHY DAN QUIT THE BOARD, I SUGGEST CALLING DAN AND ASKING HIM. I am just pointing out that I don't think he quit over this airport issue.

Ron, have you asked Dan why he quit? Since he and Maxie quit at exaclty the same time and left the board meeting I would be inclined to believe differently than Ron posted above. One thing I am sure of is that he did not quit over any non payment as Ron has stated above. The one statement that Ron made above that I can agree with is this one "IF YOU WANT TO KNOW WHY DAN QUIT THE BOARD, I SUGGEST CALLING DAN AND ASKING HIM." Otherwise I think all the above info to erroneous.

jb

jamiebodie

11-21-2004, 03:44 PM

Ron Wrote:
I know what your probably thinking Jamie. If I don't care about the issue, then why tell people what they should do. Well your right, I don't have to even read these threads. If I don't feel like calling the guy then why should I care how others here are posting. Well I don't know. I am as curious as the next guy how my favorite soap opera will continue. And sometimes I feel like popping in here and throwing out my two cents.

Ron, I don't question why you are reading, I question why you are posting and giving advice. If you don't care just read, if that is what makes you happy. Post on the issues that you care about.

jb

jamiebodie

11-21-2004, 03:46 PM

Tim, are you so deficit of useful information on this topic that you have to insult the inteligence of the rest of us by posting material that we have already read.

MikeLindsay

11-21-2004, 03:54 PM

Jamie, those posts are meant to deflect attention from the issue and the quotes of others posts are to muddy the waters with opinions and misinformation.
Mike

barnstorm2

11-21-2004, 04:37 PM

Communications and attitude..

Posted time and time again people say the ‘problem’ derived from lack of communication from the board and that the solution to the problem is communication from the board and the PRA.

So why the silence from the board and the PRA?

It could NOT POSSIBLY be because:

The majority of PRA members are older and not internet savvy or type and interact with the computer slowly or without a great deal of confidence.

It could not be because:

That the environment created by those with ‘unanswered’ questions is such that the board, and knowledgeable members are reluctant to post. That the nit-picking and spinning is so bad that they think they would have to have every word they posted double and triple checked by a legal staff and editors for every way the words could be mis-construed, twisted and arm-chair quarterbacked.

It could not even remotely be because:

Some people seem to think that the PRA has a 24 hour internet savvy legal and press release department ready to answer questions on every word in every legal document touched by the PRA. Even if those topics had already been discussed in past threads, by board members (when they were still posting) and the poster wont take the time search the past threads but will declare conspiracy if the post goes unanswered to a few ‘internet seconds’ or 3 posts (whichever comes first).

Certainly it could no be because:

Instead of using a friendly, adult, professional tone and or offering an actual solution, alternative, comparisons to another clubs, better way, or constructive interaction (that you might expect from adults or pilots) they simply accuse, slander and spin.

No bearing what so ever, would be:

The common feeling that these questions have been answered but just not to the clarification or satisfaction of some people and their attitude belies other motivations thus they will never be satisfied with any answer ever.

With out doubt it could not be:

Because some people get so unreasonably self-spun up that they start jumping to conclusions and slandering just from second-hand recollections of conversations and think that facts and verbal contracts can be made on third hand accounts.

No possible way could it be that:

Instead of making the PRA employees feel at home talking to us and ‘speaking their mind’ by thanking them for their time, posts, information and willingness to take the time and share with us we instead cut them down in a public forum, completely ungrateful and insensitive of their efforts for us.

No measure would be that:

Some posters can slander, accuse and spin at will but then if their motives, attitude, actions or opinions are questioned then they flip out and act as if some great crime as been committed against them.

No matter whatsoever if:

The board members that are on the internet already spend their time doing positive productive things (what they signed up for) like defending our rights with the FAA, training, arranging and generally working hard on issues that would not drag them down into a time and effort tar pit like this forum.

No CHANCE of it being because:

We have time and time and time again slammed the door in the face of those in the PRA and the board who want to work WITH us then turn around and declare their silence as proof of mis-management. Therefore since we close of communication then say the only way to solve the problem is communication and thus WE are the problem.

No, it could be none of those crazy things….

It simply MUST be:

Because every 3am, medication-induced accusation is met with silence because they are true!

Just think of the ha-ra’s we well have now that Pam wont put up with us!

We could not have done with simply asking Pam if she was speaking for herself or as the ‘official word of the PRA office manager’. Or nicely asking her to clarify when she was speaking of opinions held by herself or of her in her office capacity. Hell NO!

We can’t even muster up enough b@lls to fu*&ing apologize!!

With this great work done (for the positive good of the PRA in the big picture of course) we can now strew all sorts of conspiracies and lies about the PRA managers’ office and get what!?! Since she wont answer now THEY ALL MUST BE TRUE!! HEY!

GyroRon

11-21-2004, 04:47 PM

Jamie, like I said, if anyone wants to know factually why Dan quit then they should call and ask him. But I seem to remember he was pissed about the TV show, not the airport when I spoke to him only a hour or two after he walked out of the board meeting at this past Bensen Days.

My point is bring this up, is he is sucked into this discussion from time to time and it is just a assumption that he quit over airport issues. I don't remember him posting anything here to support that. This whole discussion is full of assumptions.

Dave Dewinter was sucked into this discussion a few times early on. It was assumed that he quit because of this airport issue. He never quit the board. He was outted per the By Laws cause he could not make the manditory meeting in Mentone or Bensen Days or whereever it was that year.

jamiebodie

11-21-2004, 04:49 PM

Tim, you keep talking about the internet, what about when we were asking in person at board meetings?

BTW, Captain George Silver is internet savy and he is the oldest active gyro pilot I know, so is my 71 year old mother. Age has nothing to do with it and I think you may have offended many older people.

I don't think I have anything to apoligize to Pam for but if I do I am sorry. I never meant to offend her.

Last but not least, COULD IT BE THAT THEY ARE HIDING SOMETHING IN THEIR SILENCE? Tim, there is very little doubt that things are not as they should be. The question now is what is going to be done about it. I think you are a smart guy, stop letting your personal feelings for these people cloud your judgement and use that brain that God gave you.

jamiebodie

11-21-2004, 04:49 PM

Time to clear the waters again.

Is there any legal relationship between PRA and PRA Mentone?

jamiebodie

11-21-2004, 05:00 PM

Jamie, like I said, if anyone wants to know factually why Dan quit then they should call and ask him. But I seem to remember he was pissed about the TV show, not the airport when I spoke to him only a hour or two after he walked out of the board meeting at this past Bensen Days.

My point is bring this up, is he is sucked into this discussion from time to time and it is just a assumption that he quit over airport issues. I don't remember him posting anything here to support that. This whole discussion is full of assumptions.

Ron, before you post your opinions of why Dan quit, which are incorrect, please follow your own advice and give him a call.

jb

barnstorm2

11-21-2004, 06:08 PM

Time to clear the waters again.

Is there any legal relationship between PRA and PRA Mentone?

Clear the waters is a good idea, I agree completely.

And since that is your question all along.. err or was it:

Quote:
Originally Posted by jamiebodie
I would be happy with documentation of the owner, whomever it might or might not be.

or was it checks and balances:

Originally Posted by jamiebodie

It is highly unlikely that Gary will be fulfilling MJ's request. First of all I don't believe the documentation exists and that there is absolutely no system of checks and balances between the PRA and PRA Mentone.

NO, it was about shareholders...

Everyone gets so caught up in the "why", they forget the question. This is not personal at any level. It is about getting a simple question answered. Although I must admit I am growing weary of the abuse and may soon give up without an answer.

Who are the shareholders of PRA Mentone, or who actually has legal controlling interest of PRA Mentone?

But wait, it was about with holding paperwork, that's it:

Why would Gary withhold the paperwork that 3 board members asked for over and over again and then supply it to MJ.

Oh, but then you did get it..

------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by PRA
Good afternoon gentlemen of PRA, The one million dollar question of the day is, what did you boys do with the paper work that was sent to you on October 28, 2003? The following people who was on the Board of Directors in 2003 were sent The Organizational Papers.

The following are names who were sent by certified mail:

James Bodie
Maxie Wildes
Dan Leslie
Dave Prater
Greg Gremminger
Gary Goldsberry
Richard D. Marshall
Ron Menzie
Tom Milton
Ernie Boyette

And the eleventh person to receive a copy of these papers sent out a few weeks ago was:

Mary Jane Oxnam
So, Jamie, Maxie, and Dan can you tell your audience what you did with your copies of these papers that were sent to you back in October of last year??
------------------------------------------------------

No, it was voting?

Originally Posted by jamiebodie
Hey Don, why can't the PRA members vote for the PRA Mentone BOD?

Hey wait it's checks and balances again:

Originally Posted by jamiebodie
It is actually not about a scam or anyone stealing anything. As I have said 100 times before it is about setting the organization up in a manner that is most logical and provides the best system of checks and balances to keep honest people honest.

But no paperwork checking by MJ is ok:

Originally Posted by jamiebodie
Hopefully the paperwork that Gary has sent to MJ will settle things once and for all. Once it is I will go away and never be back.

NO, all wrong again! Its about the INVESTMENT.

Originally Posted by jamiebodie
It matters who owns the airport if I never fly again, because I am a lifetime member of the PRA and I want to know that my assets are being properly protected. Our questions have never changed, only the accusations against us have changed.

Oh and there are more examples of the one question, like when it got scared and IT went hypothethical for a sec after MJ posted her results...but i tire of this and I am sure you are too...

Jamie, from my point of view your question(s) has been answered by Gary, Tom, Tim B, MJ, and yet again the most recient by Texas Armadillo!!!

Dispite all of this, I hope to someday find a way to present the information to you in some format that you will understand/believe.

gyroguy

11-21-2004, 06:41 PM

I was surprised to get on the computer and see this thread still exists. May I share an idea with you?

As I understood it from this thread, the reason why the Popular Rotorcraft Assn, Inc. and PRA Mentone, Inc. are separate corporations is for the protection of PRA members.

If that's true, how smart would it be to have a "piece of paper" that legally ties the two organizations together?

Wouldn't that "piece of paper" -- in the hands of any reasonably smart lawyer -- undo what the formation of two separate corporations was supposed to have achieved?

If so, I suspect the "piece of paper" doesn't exist. No amount of posting on this thread will produce it.

As I posted much earlier, this thread is a dead horse.

--Kerry Cartier

scott heger

11-21-2004, 07:13 PM

madmax

11-21-2004, 08:06 PM

Some of you might remember a post on the old forum in which an individual was complaining about the way they had been treated at Mentone.
One of the things that I remember from that post was that Gary G. had come up to this person and said "Get the F*** off my airport!"
That speaks volumes to me about the nature of the ownership. Wish I'd saved the post.

I remember that!! Didn't some one say that it was our airport so we did have to worried about getting run off any more?

You will probably never see issues concerning P.R.A. addressed here by the officers of P.R.A. as they do not feel this is the proper place to address the issues. The proper place is in the memberships magazine, where ALL the members will be able to see. I guess we'll all have to keep an eye out for this issue to be addressed there.

Might that be because there will not be an opportunity for some one to point out any errors in the story until the next issue, if at all.

At the Bensen Days Board meeting, Maxie Wildes and Dan Leslie made a motion to have the same Board of Directors for both PRA and PRA Mentone. Their vote failed, and they both resigned in front of the Board. I stated that I would sign any statement that both organizations belong to the PRA and it’s members. They wouldn’t accept this and both left the meeting.

Ron!!! you may want to read before you post. you acting like Tim.

These By-Laws are the REAL PROBLEM.

The By-laws will make little deference in the way things are done. They are being ignored when they get in the way now. I.E The last election.

So much for my trying to open lines of "communications" guys.
Stick a fork in me, I done.
Bye

Pam
Would you please answer the Museum rental question before you go? In all fairness we have asked 3 times. before now.

Ummm.... No I believe it was just one person who decided to call him. I said I was going to call him, but after I reflected on the whole thing I decided I didn't honestly care about all this enough to ruin the friendships I have with Gary and his Wife and other members of the current board.

Ron ... are you afraid that Tom will not sign off your gyro if you disagree with him or make some of the other BOD's mad? Or do you think he will do it for free if you help make this go away?

And btw, I don't think Dan Leslie quit the Board over this matter. And I don't know if I think it is fair to include him in these discussions. I would not doubt that he feels the same way on this subject as alot of you guys do, but I believe his reason for quitting the board was based on the cancellation and non payment for work he was authorized to do with his rotorwing TV show. I believe the board voted for him to do more shows and he did them and then when it was time to be paid, the board basically told him they weren't going to pay. NOW THIS IS NOT CONFIRMED AND IS NOT TO BE TAKEN AS FACT.... IF YOU WANT TO KNOW WHY DAN QUIT THE BOARD, I SUGGEST CALLING DAN AND ASKING HIM. I am just pointing out that I don't think he quit over this airport issue.

OK Ron. Once again read Gary's post. That is about the only non-misleading statement is his post. That is not the only reason, but it was the one that broke the camel's back that day. The Board did vote to, not support the TV show in July. The problem is that in April, three months earlier, when it time to renew the sponsorship, The BOD's voted, to continue the support and with that Dan borrowed the money needed to continue the show. Imagine his surprise when he heard of the vote that Gary and Glenn pushed thru at the next meeting because they said the money was needed at the airport and other things. It was like buying a car and three months later after you wanted to spend the money on other things you just took the car back and told the dealer it was his now. This is one of the things I have spoken of that is an embarrassment to the PRA. However Dan was elected to the BOD years after that also and is not THE reason he resigned as Ron has posted. Dan's reasons were many. as were mine.

I know what your probably thinking Jamie. If I don't care about the issue, then why tell people what they should do. Well your right, I don't have to even read these threads. If I don't feel like calling the guy then why should I care how others here are posting. Well I don't know. I am as curious as the next guy how my favorite soap opera will continue. And sometimes I feel like popping in here and throwing out my two cents.

Ron I would hope that even you if you don't care about the assets of the PRA, as a Chapter President-elect, that you would be mature enough to know that this is a very serious matter and should not be considered a soap opera here for your entertainment pleasure, even though there are many here trying to make a joke out of this in hopes to help make it go away.

madmax

11-21-2004, 08:20 PM

And since that is your question all along.. err or was it:or was it checks and balances:
NO, it was about shareholders...
But wait, it was about with holding paperwork, that's it:
Oh, but then you did get it..
Oh, but then you did get it..
Hey wait it's checks and balances again:
But no paperwork checking by MJ is ok:
NO, all wrong again! Its
about the INVESTMENT.

Thanks Tim for looking that up. what is it now 10 defferent ways you and others have tried to change the question and ten time Jamie has tried to make you understand reguardless of how you have twisted it. And you still don't get it. Or is it you still refuse to get it.

PS Have you got your papers yet that show the legal relationship between the two?

barnstorm2

11-21-2004, 08:21 PM

Anyone here,
Please name one airport in the United States that the owner of the airport has lost its ownership, and all the non-profit members of that airport were sued because a pilot crashed . That is quite a stretch to me for giving as a excuse in protecting the PRA membership. I also don't buy into the fact that a non-profit organization like the PRA can't make a profit on fuel sales, rentals, etc that was also used as a excuse for the seperation of the two groups. If a non-profit didn't make any money, it would not be around for long. Making money is allowed for a non-profit, long as it stays in the organization for its internal use. If I was a lawyer, and really want to sue because my lame client gyro pilot messed up, crashed and stubbed his toe; the most money assets are in the airport property, not the stuff in Pam's office owned by the PRA. So the lawyer would still sue both anyways, trying to extract cash where he could. Is this so hard to grasp for you all on the BOD? Trying to duct any responsibility isn't going to work no matter what is done. Even a first year law student, could get a copy of the magazine, or other verbal statement where Gary has declared the PRA owns the airport( and he sits on both Boards also), and both entities would be defending the suit, with twice the amount of lawyer bills.

Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel, Ca N86SH

Scott, all of these issues have been discussed in previous threads, please do some searches. In deed in those threads you did not read we find that some lawyers did ask someone who was in an accident to sue us! It was Jamie (the guy who wants paperwork to tie this all together) but good for him and us he took the high road and did not sign their papers.

Kerry,

I have a half-dozen dead horse picts posted from 2 threads ago, you are welcome to use them in your posts, they will be like new now! ;)

Maxie, Thank you for showing the posting style and mannor that I was just giving examples of a few posts ago. Good work!

madmax

11-21-2004, 09:10 PM

Your welcome Tim. Here is somthing that might be of interest to you also.

11-05-2004, 04:39 PM
Texas Armadillo
Yellow Jockstrap
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Katy, Texas
Posts: 103

I spoke with Gary the other night on the questions that have been raised in this thread. His prompt reply to my phone call and answers to my questions were polite and most appreciated. The answers here may not satisfy everyone, but after speaking to him, I understand his answers and have a better feeling of why things are the way they are, and his desire to do the right thing. Will everyone be satisfied with this post?... probably not. But, it wasn't meant to solve all issues. It was meant only to answer some of the questions that have been presented here the best that I can, based on Gary's comments in a short phone call. The answers below are in MY text, taken from my phone conversation with Gary. I am responsible for any miss quotes, or misunderstandings. I don't think Gary would mind if I called again for a follow up set of questions in the future, if needed.

1) Does PRA or PRA Mentone actually own the airport? Yes, PRA Mentone owns the airport. (I can hear it now, "Show me the paper!") PRA Mentone is a wholly owned subsidiary of the PRA. Current documentation that has been sent to those who have requested it may not show this as clearly as wished by some members, but that's all the documentation there is. Some have accepted it, others have not, and Gary wants to address this by making changes to the documentation, without defeating the purpose of having the two entities separated in the first place. The problem is, how do you separate PRA from PRA Mentone so that frivolous lawsuits can't reach the PRA members, but still have PRA members in charge of PRA Mentone? Hard nut to crack.

To solve this problem, Gary is currently working with the new Treasurer of the PRA and some legal advisors to create documentation that more clearly states this relationship without making the PRA members at risk of a lawsuit in case of an accident at PRA Mentone. The PRA and PRA Mentone are separate entities with a different BOD's, except for the President. The President of the PRA is the President of PRA Mentone. The President of the PRA selects the other BOD's of PRA Mentone. This selection has been kept local, to involve those in the most immediate area. This has been how it was done and was always “understood” (assumed) to be the case. Gary is at present trying to edit the wording into the PRA Mentone by-laws to more clearly reflect the relationship and authority of the two entities.

2) If PRA actually owns the airport, why was this second non profit organization created? The second organization was created to protect the PRA BOD's and the PRA members from lawsuits initiated by accidents that may occur at the Mentone airport in the future.

3) It has been stated publicly, in the Rotorcraft magazine, and on the PRA website that the PRA owns the Mentone airport. What direct relationship exists between PRA and PRA Mentone that proves the PRA owns the airport? As stated above the current documentation is believed to show the relationship. Gary is working to create documentation that more clearly states this relationship without making the PRA members at risk of a lawsuit in case of an accident at PRA Mentone.

4) Are there any documents that make the BOD of PRA Mentone answerable to The PRA BOD and/or its members? The PRA Mentone By-Laws (currently under revisement) will show this relationship more clearly. All of the revisions are hoped to be ready for review by the PRA Board at the next Board meeting at Bensen Days. This includes, by-laws for both entities, financials for both entities, and the BOD's for both entities.

5) Who are the Board of Directors of PRA Mentone and how do they get elected? As stated above, they are selected by the President of the PRA. The current Board Members of PRA Mentone are Gary Goldsberry, Glenn Bundy, Art Evans, Tony Stiles, and Max Falkner.

6) What money was put up as collateral or payment for the Mentone airport purchase and by which members? None. The cost of the airport was $155,000.00. The PRA paid a down payment of $50,000.00, and the owner, Bob Clupper, held the note of $105,000.00 at 5% interest, on $1000.00 payments. The payments were paid by the PRA making $1000.00 lease/rental payments to PRA Mentone, and PRA Mentone then making the $1000.00 payments to Bob Clupper. Since then, Bob Clupper sold the balance to a mortgage company, who then sold it again. There are about 2 years left on the note. At the end of the note, PRA is not required to continue the $1000.00 lease notes to PRA Mentone, but will continue to pay something to PRA Mentone ($100 or $200 per year) to keep the separation of the organizations legal.

7) How much money is paid by the PRA for airport mortgage payments/rental/leasing each month? $1000,00 a month.

8) Do PRA members have access to all financial records for the PRA upon request? Yes. The new Treasurer for the PRA is currently reviewing the financials of the PRA and PRA Mentone, and on completion of the audit, the details will be available to any members who request it. Hopefully by the next convention.

9) Do PRA members have access to all financial records for PRA Mentone upon request? Yes. Same as above.

10) Can PRA members get a listing of the by-laws of PRA Mentone upon request? Yes. Same as above.

11) If a new president is elected to PRA is he also the President of PRA Mentone and do the by-laws for PRA Mentone verify that? As stated earlier, it was always “understood” to be the case that the PRA President is also the PRA Mentone President. The wording of the By-laws can only be changed by vote of the Board. Gary hopes to get that wording changed at the next Board meeting.

12) When the Mentone Airport is paid off, is PRA still required to pay PRA Mentone a rental fee, or any other fees? No. Mentone is currently only able to hold its own. But, it is getting more lucrative. The profit from the PRA Convention and other events belong to the PRA, not PRA Mentone. The last PRA Convention at Mentone, Indiana netted $4000.00 profit from concessions, and $3000.00 from other income. Income from events and rent, belong to the PRA to help fund the organization, magazine and web site. If conventions are held in places other than Mentone, it is a break-even venture at best. The modifications/upgrades to the airport and the continued use of the airport for future conventions and other events is to allow PRA to make that profit.

All right... Jeff's turn. What did I get from this conversation? I don't think any hanky-panky is going on, I'm a pretty good judge of people when I question them about their actions. People give away their deceits under scrutiny most of the time. I think Gary is doing what he thinks is best for all of us. I think that maybe all the bucks sent to PRA Mentone may have been better used being distributed in some way to the clubs... Gary feels (in my opinion) the best way to serve the clubs in the long run is to make Mentone a profit center with it's museum and rental income and push money back to the PRA. (This is just my take, it may be wrong) Even though I'll probably never go to Mentone, if Gary is right and it does start to fund the PRA, and those funds come down to the clubs in some way, like improving the magazine and website, then I have to say bravo.

Jeff Spradling
__________________
Jeff Spradling
Commander 3203

Tim:
My concern is #1 where it says that PRA Mentone is the wholly owned subsidiary of PRA. It's that wholly part, the paper work does not show that clearly, that bothers me. The paper work I received did not show any relationship at all, much less the wholly owned part. So since you will be getting your copy soon, please have your guy's focus on this and point out the document that verifies this wholly owned part so you can post it here. Seems like PRA Mentone is continuing to do very well while the Parent Company is suffering, was not some of the income, if not all from PRA Mentone meant to help support the mother Company PRA since PRA is paying for the airport and it's improvements? Isn't that how it was to really work? All of the others World-wide do. You know if that was happening we would already know Gary's statement is most likely correct, but as far as I know the money has only flowed one way.

There is one other concern I have now though, maybe you could find this out for us. Is Glenn's Museum (a third and separate Origination according to Pam) paying rent to PRA Mentone? or are we paying for that too?

Thanks in advance for your assistance in this matter..

j4flyer

11-22-2004, 04:03 AM

I have another question, what can we lose if PRA not PRA mentone owns the airport? It seems to me that the only asset PRA has is the airport. If a crash and lawsuit happens, the airport will be gone regardless of ownership by PRA or PRA mentone. If I'm correct, why have a seperate organization?

barnstorm2

11-22-2004, 04:10 AM

Maxie,

I wish all of the posts in these threads had been written with the clear adult tone of this last post of yours and of Kerry's post. Thank you.

#1. Yes, the PRA/PRA Mentone relationship is the focus of most of the versions of jamies one question. I hope that I may find someone knowledgeable with such matters that can more clearly explain how these things are arranged. I have no papers yet, and when I do it still may take me a few weeks to get the $ saved up and find some experts. However, we already have some clearification on this issue from Tim B's post and his legal council (see previous) and as you posted from Tex, Gary is going to try to get this worded more clearly if possible.

Please also, note that Tim B spoke of the funds transferr. If we still had Pam posting here then we might have been able to get some newer information about this.

As far as the museum goes I have ZERO info. Pam and Tim B would have been a direct source of information about this topic but so far as I can tell they have stopped posting on this topic due to less than professional behavior on this topic. We must be careful as this is as yet not a version of the ONE question but I think (as it seems you do) that it is closely related to the topic.

GyroRon

11-22-2004, 06:12 AM

Maxie, Jamie, Tim, and everyone else.... It is Clear and obvious that there is NOT any paper ties showing that PRA owns PRA Mentone. Gary and Dave Prater both told me this face to face at Bensen Days. This is no secret, and asking for this paper is obviously not going to result in a paper.

What the focus should be on is [1] getting a paper like this written and [2] getting the board of Mentone changed to linclude the rest of the PRA board.

Now to close out this Dan thing.... I was told he quit over the TV show issue. Jamie says he didn't quit over that issue. Maxie says that the TV show was the straw that broke the camels back, but Dan also quit over the airport issue as well. Either way the bottom line is Dan is not here to support this discussion either way it goes, so I don't think it is fair to bring him very far into the whole thing.

As for me being the new Chapter 13 president and that meaning I should really care abotu this issue.... Well as Chapter president I could really back my respected fellow chapter members and come on to this thread with both guns blazing, Could call Gary and Dave and Tom And Ernie and every other board member and make a big huge stink over this. Why? Well cause my fellow chapter members have a problem with the way the PRA is run and they feel the airport - the PRAs biggest monetary asset - could be taken away from us or not used to float the PRA through tough times if needed since the PRA really has no control over the airport.

BUT.....

I could just as easily say that as Chapter president, this whole discussion is more harmful for the PRA than the results would be if this discussion ever produces results. People are dropping out of the PRA, even I have questioned whether I should stay on as a member. People who were thinking of joining the PRA are deciding not to. The membership drive failed, no doubt due to this discussion that has been here for months. In all, people are less excited about gyros and the PRA partly because of this issue. I do agree with some here, that this discussion is killing the PRA. As chapter president, I could just as easily buy into this point of view and start posting pics of dead horses and so on.

How does Ron really feel about all this? [1] I think that the way things were set up between PRA and PRA mentone were set up with no foul intentions intended.

[2] I think that YES that there is no reason they can't be the same, no reason for two names and two boards, and no reason that shouldn't be changed now.

[3] I do believe that as the magazine suffers more and more and more members drop out, that if nothing happens out of this discussion that the PRA will fail and PRA mentone will still exist and the guys near Mentone will still have a airport to call gyro central or home or whatever they call it.

[4] I don't believe Gary and the other PRA Mentone board are crooks or Cronies or have some scret plan to steal the airport. But I do believe the way the paper work is currently written that could happen if Gary and the others choose to become dishonest people.

[5] From everything I have heard, there has been some dicatorship leadership in the high ranks of PRA BOD. I think there has been plenty of bad deals and bad decisions made over the years.

[6] I also agree that the board could be more comunicative with the members at large. Seems like we aren't in the know unless we decide to become a life member, and even then the life members don't know a whole lot about the inner workings of the PRA. I am the kind of person that wants to know how the members feel and keep them in the loop.

[7] Lastly, I think that the gist of the discussion is well worth discussion. But I don't think it is fair to say some of the things that have been said about Gary and the other BODs. Ken J. has really ripped these guys hard, and some of the other comments have been way outta line. If Gary was here posting responces I would not be so upset about it, but he isn't here to defend himself, and I don't think it is fair to beat the man up here without him being here. He may not be perfect and I am sure he has his faults, but he sure does alot for the PRA and deserves more respect than he has been shown at times in this thread.

So I do have feelings about all this, and for the most part I agree with Maxie and Jamie and want answers too, or more exact.... I would like to see Changes because we already know the answers.

I don't want to be in here slinging mud or making disrespectful comments about Gary or anyone else. I would like to see results done in a friendly way. It is easy to sit here at my computer keyboard and say Gary is a crook and he secretly is plotting to steal the airport and he is a asshole and a prick to anyone he doesn't want on " his " airport and so on... But I don't totally feel this way about Gary and I think slamming the guy on the keyboard is not the way to get changes. To get changes you need to reach all the members. Write a article and put it in the magazine. Or get in touch with all the life members and try to get them to put pressure on the board for results, call and speak with each indivdual board member. Do something like this and if there is still no results then I guess we can all suffer if the bad times come.

I say I don't care about this enough to want to make the phone calls. And that is true. I have only been a member for a few years. I have not done any thing for the PRA other than send them 35 bucks a year for a few years. Our chapter will still exist if PRA fails. I will still fly my gyro. I will still have my friends in rotorcraft. I have not been to Mentone and therefore will not miss out on the really fun fly ins there. I will certainly not miss the magazine! I care, but just not enough to get emotional in these threads. If anyone has paid attention, I was the one who brought this whole thing to the forum. I started this thread here.... I do care, but I am not going to make it personal. I am not kissing up to TOM for a free inspection on my gyro, or kissing up to GARY or anyone else. I am just showing these guys the respect that I think they would have for me.

Now to turn the tables somewhat.... It appears that if I do not care enough about this issue to take it to the level of making harsh posts, or calling Gary for answers to questions we already know the answers to, or whatever else.... That some here would just assume I didn't post at all. And if I disagree with these people such as Tim does, then I am just wrong and need to either change my mind or not post either.

So just remember this, I am with you Maxie and with you Jamie in that changes should be made. But I am not going to take it to a disrespectful level and I am not going to sit by quietly while others go off the deep end and slam good people here. Will I make phone calls and so on? No I will very likely not do this for myself.... I might as chapter president once January 1st comes around and I am official and all, but not for myself. I don't care about this that much to lose friends or to go to that effort.

GyroRon

11-22-2004, 06:57 AM

Maxie you posted this...

" Quote:
At the Bensen Days Board meeting, Maxie Wildes and Dan Leslie made a motion to have the same Board of Directors for both PRA and PRA Mentone. Their vote failed, and they both resigned in front of the Board. I stated that I would sign any statement that both organizations belong to the PRA and it’s members. They wouldn’t accept this and both left the meeting.

Ron!!! you may want to read before you post. you acting like Tim."

Maxie, I didn't not write that. That was someone else.

barnstorm2

11-22-2004, 07:22 AM

Civil and productive! Ron you rock!

Maxie, Jamie, Tim, and everyone else.... It is Clear and obvious that there is NOT any paper ties showing that PRA owns PRA Mentone. Gary and Dave Prater both told me this face to face at Bensen Days. This is no secret, and asking for this paper is obviously not going to result in a paper..

Excellent qualified point.

What the focus should be on is [1] getting a paper like this written and [2] getting the board of Mentone changed to linclude the rest of the PRA board..

Excellent, a suggestion for a new way to do things!

[2] I think that YES that there is no reason they can't be the same, no reason for two names and two boards, and no reason that shouldn't be changed now...

Ron, although this sounds good I am (possibly mistaken here) under the impression that IN non-profit law will not allow the two entities to be the same and that certain restrictions apply or could apply.

[3] I do believe that as the magazine suffers more and more and more members drop out, that if nothing happens out of this discussion that the PRA will fail and PRA mentone will still exist and the guys near Mentone will still have a airport to call gyro central or home or whatever they call it....

Ron, I don't see how this is clear cut or even possible given what we know. This seems to me to be speculation and an indication of motovations that I have seen no evidence to support.

[4] I don't believe Gary and the other PRA Mentone board are crooks or Cronies or have some scret plan to steal the airport. But I do believe the way the paper work is currently written that could happen if Gary and the others choose to become dishonest people.....

Ron, my understanding of the current arrangements leads me to believe that it would take the board and president to pull off any such crookery and that if we were to speculate on such things; if we elected a crooked board they could destroy the PRA and other assets airport or not. Should such a thing take place there would be recourse. We can not protect the PRA from a crooked board, there is simply no way with out making the board a non-entity. With a board that crooked the airport would be the least of our worries. Our protection from the board is our vote and our bylaws, one of the reasons you can't just 'jump' into the board you have to be a standing lifetime PRA member is to protect us from just this sort of thing.

[[5] From everything I have heard, there has been some dicatorship leadership in the high ranks of PRA BOD. I think there has been plenty of bad deals and bad decisions made over the years. .....

20/20 hindsight is a tricky and tempting thing. If I read through every decision the board (or any board made for that matter) I am sure I would find many decisions that I disagreed with and that in hindsight could have pulled a few 'I told-you-sos'. That is what sucks about being a decision maker and what sucks about making decisions as a group. They don't all go the YOU would have liked and boards f%&k up just like I do. The important thing to keep in mind is that we voted those decision makers into office. If they are making bad decisions don't vote for them and or become a lifetime member and participate in the decisions directly yourself.

[[[6] I also agree that the board could be more comunicative with the members at large. Seems like we aren't in the know unless we decide to become a life member, and even then the life members don't know a whole lot about the inner workings of the PRA. I am the kind of person that wants to know how the members feel and keep them in the loop......

An excellnet idea and motive but I have seen few realistic suggestions on how to implement this. Rather I have seen (previous posts) the door of communications slammed in the face of the board members. I would LOVE to brainstorm on this with you and others, perhaps in another thread and then take our suggestions to the board at BDays or ask them to be published in the magazine.

Additional note: I attended the general membership meeting at Mentone. Hopefully, someday I will attend the life membership meetings. How many of those who complain about board communication have 1. attended such meeting. 2. Asked a question such as "how does all this work" or 3. Called and or emailed a board member?

[7] Lastly, I think that the gist of the discussion is well worth discussion. But I don't think it is fair to say some of the things that have been said about Gary and the other BODs. Ken J. has really ripped these guys hard, and some of the other comments have been way outta line. If Gary was here posting responces I would not be so upset about it, but he isn't here to defend himself, and I don't think it is fair to beat the man up here without him being here. He may not be perfect and I am sure he has his faults, but he sure does alot for the PRA and deserves more respect than he has been shown at times in this thread.......

Amen.

[So I do have feelings about all this, and for the most part I agree with Maxie and Jamie and want answers too, or more exact.... I would like to see Changes because we already know the answers........

Ron, perhaps a constructive way to do this is to:

1. Make a list of suggested changes.

2. Determine if these changes are possible, legal and supported by a legal council

3. Write up these changes and present them as a group effort, signed by concerned parties (maybe even me!) to the Board.

Please also keep in mind IMPORTANT what Gary said to Tex A. He and the accountaint want to see clearer wording put in place just like you do, so to some extent (we do not know to what extent) what you want may already be in progress! :) yea!

jamiebodie

11-22-2004, 02:47 PM

Ron and Tim, you guys are on to something, not something new Max and I have been trying to do for years. Good luck!

I know of three/four board members that have always kept the lines of communication open by being on the conference and participating. Two of us are now desperately trying to make the membership understand that the paperwork between PRA and PRA Menton is not set up properly. I have been slammed by many people, had my integrity and my intelligence questioned many times. I suffer the abuse, and give back to those who dish it out, because I feel that setting the paperwork up between these organizations in a proper manner is important and if I/we are successful not one of you will ever have reason to thank us and that is fine with me. I just hope I don't ever have to say "see I told you there was a problem."

Ron, you misread Maxie's post about Dan, the final straw was not the payment issue. Also the quote that Maxie posted is from Gary G's letter. You really should call Dan before posting any more on this subject. No offense, but you don't have a very good understanding of this subject and you are not doing yourself or Dan any justice.

GyroRon

11-22-2004, 02:53 PM

Jamie I do not hold any ill feelings about this whole subject with you or Maxie - or Dan. I salute you for coming forward to make things right. Neither you or Maxie has played foul in these threads as far as I am concerned. What was bothering me was how some of the other people in these threads were allowing themselves to act. It is not fruitful and serves no purpose but to hurt our bond and friendships. Look at Chuck Beaty.... where is he now?

It is time to move on to making changes, not trying to identify the problem. This is something we ALL could use help with.

And I have no problem calling Dan. Might do that in just a minute, after I finish eating my Dinner!

madmax

11-22-2004, 03:12 PM

From Ron's post #155

Today, 02:12 PM
GyroRon
Let the Force be with you
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Fort Mill S.C.
Posts: 3,468

Maxie, Jamie, Tim, and everyone else.... It is Clear and obvious that there is NOT any paper ties showing that PRA owns PRA Mentone. Gary and Dave Prater both told me this face to face at Bensen Days. This is no secret, and asking for this paper is obviously not going to result in a paper.

Ron!!!!

Why!!!!! have you not told us this before now???????? We have all been told the papers exist. All the BOD's got papers, MJ got papers and said her accountant said that PRA owned PRA Mentone and the airport. Tim is now waiting on those same papers because it is believed by him and many others that these papers do exist and show ownership. My accountant said they show no such ownership and Jamie and I have caught pure hell defending my accountants position and requiring written documentation to show ownership in and effort to protect PRA's only asset as the membership had asked us to do when they voted us on the Board. This could have made life a little easier for us!!! I guess your soap opera would not have been as exciting.

And when this is over, As Tom said we may very well sit around the table and talk about how we were at such odds with each other over this. And I would expect we will.

GyroRon

11-22-2004, 03:31 PM

I told you a long time ago that I spoke with Gary and Dave after speaking with you after the board meeting at Bensen days. He told me what everyone was being told, that there can't be any paper ties between the PRA and PRA Mentone, cause if someone gets hurt at the airport and sues, if both were in one name, everything including the airport would be lost. The way it is set up now, only the airport would be lost.

That is what I was told then and I told you that is what they told me.

I wasn't holding back info to get a laugh or to have a soap opera, I thought that you guys were were trying to get changes made by asking for these " papers " kind of a roundabout way of getting your point across.

The only reason I posted that earlier today is that it is plainly obvious that there is no Paper that has on it what alot of people here want to see on it. If there was I am sure Gary would have shown it to you guys while you were still on the board, or at least by now on the forum through Tom or Tim or one of the other regular posters here.

For some reason I had begone to think that some kind of paper might really exist.... But let's face it, the only paper that exists is what you guys have been sent already and the only tie to the PRA is the use of PRA in the name - PRA Mentone - Which we know means nothing.

Heron

11-22-2004, 04:03 PM

madmax

11-22-2004, 04:17 PM

OK!!!!!!

TOM???? TIM????

Can we now move to get this corrected instead of continuing with trying to validate the obvious. IT looks to me like the ball is in the Boards court. With all the post of Don, Pam and now Ron's eye witness account. We can now only hope that the PRA Board is up for the task ahead. Good luck!!!!!!!!!!!

GyroRon

11-23-2004, 04:49 AM

Uh Ron?
Roundabout to get the point across? LIke I have been trying for 3 years?
Good we are close to close the subject "To papers or not to Papers"!!!!
Lets change to what to do in case and how to get another airport, lets buy Aiken now, shall we?
Heron

Heron, there is two separate people on the forum giving away free PRA memberships. Crappy org or not, why don't you get yourself a free membership and vote!

Heron

11-23-2004, 05:51 AM

I would love to but it states "no renewals" just for the new members . . .
I am a member in my heart, just have to save some money to send in, but only after the Sunstate money, they do better job and need more.
Also I am a founder member of Tri County Rotorwing Club, and maybe this will be a chapter of the PRA, I will show them the whole enchillada and the BOD will decide joning or not.
Maybe I will envite Chuck B. for a lecture and he better than anyone can explain to all the perks and duties of a PRA membership.
So as you see even with no money at all I am still pushing forward for gyros in general and the PRA in particular.
Vote did not get anything done, effort did!
Best wishes for the hollydays
Heron

gyroguy

11-24-2004, 05:36 PM

I have two questions and some comments to sum up where this thread has gone and its future.

>>First, having aired the dirty PRA laundry with more than 10,000 individual viewings of it --

>>Has this helped PRA?

-- If I were not a PRA member, the animosity and rancor shown in this thread would make me think twice about joining PRA.

-- If I were a relatively new PRA member, the name-calling and calumny shown in this thread might make me question the worth of renewing my PRA membership.

-- But I've been around PRA for more than a decade. PRA is more than family arguments. The people posting on this thread would run through fire to rescue one another if the other crashed -- and some have.

-- These same people help each other with flying, instruction, safety, etc., and do so despite differences in opinion. Nowhere else have I seen such rugged individuals combine their talents for the love of a sport. PRA isn't about arguments, it's about the fun of flying.

>>Second, after hundreds of posts, the predictable result is a need to provide input to the next PRA Board of Directors/PRA Mentone Board of Directors meetings.

>>Why don't some of the most vehement posters get together by phone and/or private e-mail and work up a presentation for the boards -- and close down this thread?

-- The differences in opinion are known to all from the posters on this thread. Any further discussion would be mind-numbing.

-- The posters know each other and seem to indicate their willingness to work together on a presentation to the boards. The details don't need to be on this thread.

-- I'd like to read whatever they come up with, but I don't need to read it again and again and again. There is already enough input from this thread. Anyone with additional input could contact the preserntation writers by private e-mail.

-- Last thing, it takes time to print anything in a magazine. Rather than print the presentation to the boards -- for all PRA members including those NOT on the Conference -- send it by individual e-mails to those who have commented on this thread.

Hope all will find these words constructive.

[Insert drawing of dead horse with rictus smile here]

KenSandyEggo

11-24-2004, 11:16 PM

Maxie, Jamie, Bob Lewis and a few others seem to be the only ones who have a sensible handle on this. Tim, Ron and others are puffing smoke, blowing kisses, throwing rose petals, spraying the area with perfume, giving hugs, and yet if you read what they are saying lately, they're admitting to the problems of ownership, but still think that *****-footing is going to take care of things all of a sudden. Wish I was in the blinders business, I'd be making a fortune here.

The situatuion, as reiterated by Tim and Ron is that there is no connection between PRA and PRA Mentone except "PRA" as words only. I beg to differ. There is a very strong connection, like about $200,000 of PRA money that was taken by PRA Mentone with no one's permission except their own. It has also been recently shown that Gary and Glenn are the owners of the airport. Tim, as usual came up with one of his "Tim-isms," asking how do I know these two are the only owners as if he truly believed what he asked had any bearing on anything. Well, the incorporation paper of PRA Mentone was shown to prove who owns the airport and Glenn and Gary are listed as the only 2 officers, so let's see.........1......and........1......uh......YEP! It equals 2. Tim, let's say that through some miraculous means......maybe invisible ink, that there are more than these 2 as owners. What the hell is the point? It doesn't change the issues one iota. Whether 2 members of PRA Mentone or 20 members of PRA Mentone helped themselves to the PRA's money to buy themselves an airport, does it matter to the issues at hand?

Now someone blames this discussion as hurting the PRA. "-- and close down this thread?" See what I mean? "If open discussion, logic and common sense are brought up to solve the problem, shut the damn discussion down." Herman Goebells, speech to graduating class, Berlin University, 1942. Well, it's possible. He COULD have said it.

Look beyond the treeline. It is the issues that have been stone-walled for years and are merely being discussed here that are hurting the PRA. Shoot the messengers seems to be the accepted philosophy by too many here. Should we blame some newspapers for reporting and editorializing about the Iraq war or any other issues for causing them? You don't blame the people who are disussing stinky-smelling stuff that has been purposely hidden for years. You blame the stink-causers who want to keep the stink close to home and from seeing the light of day, as has been successfully done for years.

If it weren't for the open discussions here, this dangerous situation where PRA could lose the airport would still secretly exist. Any concerned, duly-elected board members who asked about it, would continue to be stone-walled and given a hard time until they have no choice but to leave. Everyone has to stop beating themselves over the head eventually and quit wasting their time. The discussion on this Forum is what got this mess out into the open. Don't be so naive as to blame those that are concerned about it and want it to be discussed openly for the cause of all this turmoil and denigration of the PRA.

Put the blame where it squarely belongs, on those that took the PRA's money, bought an airport property with it, placed ownership in their names and then tried to keep it a secret for years and resisted all attempts at exposing the truth. But, maybe if we sprinkle some perfume on it and throw some rose petals at it, it'll all go away and everything will be peachy.

Everyone here, in their own inimitable ways, seems to know now that a problem exists that needs to be rectified. Jamie and Maxie have been trying to rectify it for years to no avail. Everyone now seems to agree to the problem, including Ron and Tim. I and some others feel that it has been too-long stone-walled by an unresponsive president and board and believe that the only way anything will be resolved is by bringing it into the open, as Jamie and Maxie did and hammering away for a solution. Nothing else seems to have worked so far. Others here think that the good fairy will descend one night and tap Gary and Glenn on their shoulders with her magic wand and the guys will finally wake up and do the right thing and put the airport ownership where it rightly belongs......which is not them. They will then miraculously proclaim the truth, that the liability issue is pure bull-crap and there is no liability attached to individual members of the PRA. As Bob plainly stated in his eloquent and straight-forward 3-line post:

"I have another question, what can we lose if PRA not PRA mentone owns the airport? It seems to me that the only asset PRA has is the airport. If a crash and lawsuit happens, the airport will be gone regardless of ownership by PRA or PRA mentone. If I'm correct, why have a seperate organization?"

Sorry, Bob. This question has been posed many times before and you will not get a sensible answer either. Many will read it, but it will go in one eye and out the other...or something like that. For some it will be as though your post and inquiry had never existed. You don't get too far by posing serious, sensible questions here. By the way, you failed to capitalize the "M" in Mentone, so now I am forced to question your motives here and just what kind of damage are you trying to cause? Win some, lose some. :rolleyes:

"Ron, although this sounds good I am (possibly mistaken here) under the impression that IN non-profit law will not allow the two entities to be the same and that certain restrictions apply or could apply."

Simple solution: PRA Mentone transfers ownership of the airport property to PRA, where it should have been since day one, and then schedules a board meeting in Aruba. After the board comes to order, the previous minutes of the last meeting in the Cayman Islands are read and approved. Old and new business are taken care of and the president takes a roll call to determine if a valid voting majority is present. Glenn yells out "here," and a voting majority is now present. Gary makes a motion to dissolve the corporation of PRA Mentone and asks all in favor to say "aye," which Glenn loudly does. "Any "nays," asks the president. 2 busboys, 3 waiters and the catering manager of the hotel yell out "nay!," but they are quickly over-ruled and their votes thrown out. They are told that just because they like having the meeting held there in the hotel where they work because of the nice tips they receive, that doesn't give them a right to vote. Sorry, guys.

The guys then fly home, send a letter to the State of Indiana that they have dissolved PRA Mentone, tear up any papers that need tearing up and go about their business.

I am not going to hold my breath for this to occur. But what I will do, because I mostly beat up on Tim, who seems to me to be a genuinely nice guy, and because Ron was the last one that I took a shot at, and because I've pissed away so much money on this wonderful sport/hobby of ours, I'll spend some on something worthwhile. If the ownership of the airport is properly transferred from PRA Mentone to the members of PRA who actually paid for it and should morally and legally own it within 60 days (way more than enough time for a simple task as this), I'll donate $100 each to Tim and Ron to turn over to a legitimate charity of their choice. (I'll also send Tim a check for the CD he made for me. That's a joke, Tim. You don't have to wait for that. I'll send it out shortly). I think my money will rest comfortably in Sandy Eggo for awhile, but if I have to make good and pay, it'll be a pleasure, because through a lot of people's hard efforts and perhaps my hammering on the situation, something good for all the members will have come of it. Then we can start discussing whether to sell the airport and support the magazine, web-site and whatever instead and bring the PRA back to where it belongs. The airport is doing nothing as to this except being a drain whenever it needs re-paving or something and serving an almost invisible portion of the overall membership.

I attribute the cancelling of one of the conventions because it was claimed that the airport manager wanted proof of insurance to poor planning. This should have been brought up by US before anything was finalized or serious steps taken. You get all the requirements and rules for staying at the Beverly Hills Hilton BEFORE you pack up your dogs, chickens and goat and start heading over.

Besides, I have another problem to handle. A nickel's a nickel, a dime is a dime, I got a car full of kids and none of them's mine.......we got trouble.

KenSandyEggo

11-25-2004, 12:05 AM

"P-U-S-S-Y-Footing" is not a naughty word, Mr. Censored-word-list-maker.

gyromike

11-25-2004, 03:59 AM

"P-U-S-S-Y-Footing" is not a naughty word, Mr. Censored-word-list-maker.

Sir, Yes Sir!
I'll fix it, and see what else you come up with. :)

GyroRon

11-25-2004, 04:03 AM

GyroRon

11-25-2004, 04:15 AM

The situatuion, as reiterated by Tim and Ron is that there is no connection between PRA and PRA Mentone except "PRA" as words only. I beg to differ. There is a very strong connection, like about $200,000 of PRA money that was taken by PRA Mentone with no one's permission except their own. It has also been recently shown that Gary and Glenn are the owners of the airport.

Ken first off I believe it has been shown that the 200,000$ figure your using is not a fair figure to use. Rent paid by PRA to PRA mentone is not a out of line price to pay for rent. Other parts of that total can be disputed, but had the PRA still been located somewhere else, they would be paying rent to that landlord.

Remember the airport was not given to the PRA, it was bought. And the loan is being paid back on a short term. Had they decided to pay for the airport over 30 years, I am sure a cheaper " rental " payment could be made. But the Rent now goes to pay for the airport. Which is fine so as long as the airport is PRA property, and not taken from us later.

I think the main issue here and now, is once the airport is paid off.... The Pra should not have to pay any more rent. I think I have heard once that the board wanted PRA to keep paying the same amount to PRA mentone is rent - what the money would be used for is anyones guess, maybe installing a new taxiway or something. OR I also heard that instead, a small token amount would be paid in rent to make it legal between the two companies.

Anyway this is what is important now.

GyroRon

11-25-2004, 04:41 AM

Shoot the messengers seems to be the accepted philosophy by too many here. Should we blame some newspapers for reporting and editorializing about the Iraq war or any other issues for causing them?

If it weren't for the open discussions here, this dangerous situation where PRA could lose the airport would still secretly exist.

Put the blame where it squarely belongs, on those that took the PRA's money, bought an airport property with it, placed ownership in their names and then tried to keep it a secret for years and resisted all attempts at exposing the truth.

Ken, the message is out now period. There is nothing more to discuss here as far as IS there a problem. We all know there is a problem. What needs to happen is a CHANGE to the problem..... not further discussion of IF there is a problem. Does this add up?

My point in my last few posts here in this thread is enough is enough, we all know that people are not satisfied with the way things are set up. What is needed now is for the people that this concerns the most, to get busy making a plan to fix this mess to be submitted to the PRA Board. All of these last few threads focusing on the airport and Gary, no focus has been made on a fix for the problem........ just a bunch of bitching and name calling and outright slander about the problem

what I challenge you Ken, and anyone else ... is to come up with a plan to fix these issues.

Again I ask here, how many besides Tim and Texas Armiarllo have called Gary personally about this matter? How many have emailed him directly about this? How many have tried to contact any of the other board members directly by phone or email or letter????

This matter hasn't been stonewalled, If you contact your board members, I am sure they would be more than happy to openly discuss these issues with you. What the Board hasn't done - that obviously makes some people think were being stonewalled - is to participate in these threads on this forum. Well at first I thought that was pure BS. If a big group of PRA members gathers here and decides they got questions for the board, then by gosh the board should anwser them here for us to discuss..... BUT You guys should all know by now that this forum can be like a shark tank, No one in their right mind will jump into a tank of sharks, especially if they got a open wound bleeding..... If Gary had participated in these discussions he would be swimming with Sharks. He hasn't posted here and look at all the bites he has recieved!!! Poor Pam Bundy, She comes on here and is attacked and treated with disrespect and then when she tries to defend herself, she is told she ought to be fired and so on. It is the Wolf pack, Shark Tank, the Snake Pit, Call it whatever you want. But Bottom Line is it would be ridiculous for a board member to think they could come on to this forum and discuss issues here without one or two or more forum members openly attacking, slandering, or worse. So my point is, if you want to discuss something with a board member, pick up the phone and call them!

Have Jamie and Maxie been stonewalled for years? I am not sure. They seem to have been asking for a paper to prove PRA owns PRA Mentone all along. The Paper does not exist. I thik they were lead to believe that a paper like that did exist and were mailed the forms that MJ was mailed, and Tim was just mailed etc... Which don't really show a connection between the two other than using PRA in their names. But whether Max and Jamie were stonewalled or not, the " fight " now is not to "see the papers"... but to help make sure that the Papers are created.

GyroRon

11-25-2004, 04:50 AM

. But what I will do, because I mostly beat up on Tim, who seems to me to be a genuinely nice guy, and because Ron was the last one that I took a shot at, and because I've pissed away so much money on this wonderful sport/hobby of ours, I'll spend some on something worthwhile. If the ownership of the airport is properly transferred from PRA Mentone to the members of PRA who actually paid for it and should morally and legally own it within 60 days (way more than enough time for a simple task as this), I'll donate $100 each to Tim and Ron to turn over to a legitimate charity of their choice.

Ken I have no hard feelings about any of this. I am not mad at you at all. I am a shark just like you and I can take it just as easily as I can dish it out.... ;)

- well okay sometimes I really get upset and want to quit posting and so on, but that is rare! :D -

I got no favorite charity... maybe the Ronald McDonald House? Or the Ron's flying gas fund?

Anyway I am just looking forwards to meeting you sometime soon. Are you coming to Visit your little friend here anytime soon? What did you call him.. Buger Face or something like that? Remember how to fly airplanes? My Pacer has enough seating all three of us can go flying!

madmax

11-25-2004, 06:59 AM

post from Ron

My point in my last few posts here in this thread is enough is enough, we all know that people are not satisfied with the way things are set up. What is needed now is for the people that this concerns the most, to get busy making a plan to fix this mess to be submitted to the PRA Board. All of these last few threads focusing on the airport and Gary, no focus has been made on a fix for the problem........ just a bunch of bitching and name calling and outright slander about the problem
Ron is right, boy that hurt, we need to come up with a suggestion for damage control to give to our elected BOD's, as the one Dan and I presented at the BensenDays BOD's meeting was not acceptable to the rest of the Board.

I'll start a new thread for ideas on how this can be achieved so we can present it to the PRA Board.

So please everyone, lets work together to resolve the problem. There is no need to continue trying to prove there is or is not one, we all already know there is.

KenSandyEggo

11-25-2004, 08:23 AM

Ron, I didn't make the problem. I am under no obligation to come up with a "fix." We all know what the fix is, so it's up to the people that made the problem to fix it. How many times has it been suggested how to fix it? My last post, written with some tongue in cheek about Aruba, is clearly the "fix." Put the airport ownership back where it belongs and dissolve PRA Mentone.

As far as not coming here because of it being a "shark-tank," if some "in-the-know" board member or president would have come out with the truth and what they were going to do regarding these concerns, it would have been a minor issue. "We're protecting the members from liability" and other delay tactics that somehow managed to filter down to us peons is bullcrap on its face and is an insult to anyone with a little smarts.

"Remember the airport was not given to the PRA, it was bought. And the loan is being paid back on a short term. Had they decided to pay for the airport over 30 years, I am sure a cheaper " rental " payment could be made. But the Rent now goes to pay for the airport. Which is fine so as long as the airport is PRA property, and not taken from us later. BINGO! :D

December 10 to December 17 will be the dates that I will honor the fair city of Charlotte with my presence, along with my wife to visit "Booger-Face" (aka Pizza-Face) and you and your "Kasey-Brat"......and your wife if you aren't afraid to have her exposed to what she must think by now is a raving lunatic if she ever visits here. Oh crap! I shouldn't have posted this. There will probably be a tar-and-feather party awaiting my arrival.

Ronald McDonald house is great....or is it MacDonald? Whatever. I've only seen the name about 10 million times. It's on the grounds where I work. Happy Thangsgiving, peace and true love to everyone.

GyroRon

11-25-2004, 10:22 AM

Cool Ken, I can't wait! Too bad you can't stay one more day, Our PRA chapter 13 is having it's Christmas dinner - mini fly in at Twin Lakes Airpark at the home of Club Member Jack Bombard on Saturday the 18th, would be cool for you to get to meet more of the Carolina-Georgia rotorheads.

KenSandyEggo

11-25-2004, 11:37 PM

Ron, I had to squeeze it in best I could. I work every other weekend, so I go back on the 18th. I had to find a person to cover me for one day, because my job is actually part-time. I just put in over 40 hours though in 4 days, one of which was a 13.5 hour shift, so it's hardly part-time except if I want it to be. What's this snow crap you mentioned in Stan's thread!!??

GyroRon

11-26-2004, 04:35 AM

We get snow here every year Ken. Some years it will just be one snow fall and it is just a light dusting of flakes on the ground and within a few hours all traces are gone and that is it for the year as far as Snow goes.

But sometimes we will get a serious - For the Carolinas! - snow event, where it will snow all day and night and into the next day or so. We can get over a foot of snow with one of these storms. Usually the roads are clear within a day or two from when the snow fell, but there will be snow in the yards and especially shaded areas for a week or more till it melts.

Sometimes we will get more than one snowfall per year. Last year I think we got two good snowings and one good ice event. The Ice is the bad one. It is not quite right for snow, but cold enough that if it rains it comes down as ice and sticks to everything. It makes the roads a true nightmare, and it weights down all the trees and causes branches to snap which makes a mess in yards and typically takes down alot of power lines.

The flip side of this is Charlotte is typically snow free and ice free in the winter. If we get anythig it is once around for a few days and then gone. The roads are usually cleared very fast so travel is not a problem. Yesterday was chilly, with high temps in the upper 50's to low 60's, but going back nearly a week from Wednesday It was warm enough to shorts and a T shirt. So even though it get's cold in the winter here, for the most part it doesn't get too cold.

here is a few pics from last years snow we got. The first one is Goose Creek not long after the snow started to fall. The other two are in front of my house with me going off on my dirt bike to play int he snow. It was still snowing good when these pics were taken. It was the best snow we have gotten in years.

Heron

11-26-2004, 04:37 AM

Hey guys . . .you are getting in the right mood finally!
Lets go on . . .
Heron

madmax

12-13-2004, 02:24 PM

Here is food for thought. This is the skinny on PRA, PRA Mentone and the 501 (c) deal as posted by one of our members.

In the other paper I forgot to send PRA Mentone was incorporated 04/28/95 see https://secure.in.gov/sos/bus_service/online_corps/Detail_Info.asp?packet=packet1&searchName=name1&NameType=name_type1

If you notice in one of the link pages (you have to print it out and then use a magnifying glass) in tiny type is the history of the sales --- note the last sale was 05/16/95 from Robert J. Clupper.

Note also this rule about Indiana non-profit corporations http://www.mycorporation.com/nonprofitinfo.htm:
A Nonprofit corporation, however, can not issue shares and cannot pay dividends. In addition, under the Federal Tax code Section 501(c)(3), a tax-exempt corporation cannot pay dividends AND, upon dissolution, must distribute its remaining assets to another nonprofit group.

But most important, and this applies to both PRA Mentone, Inc. and the PRA, Inc http://www.mycorporation.com/nonprofitadv.htm:
Limited Liability for Members and Directors
As with a General, for-profit corporation, directors, trustees, and officers of non-profit corporations are usually afforded the same limited liability status. Thus, creditors of the nonprofit corporation can only reach as far as the corporation's assets to satisfy corporate debts and not the personal assets of the people involved in the nonprofit corporation.

This means that if someone sues either PRA Mentone, Inc. or PRA, Inc. they can't get money from even Gary, and of course the membership.

However, :
Violation of Statutory Duties
Corporate officers and directors have a statutory duty to act responsibly when engaging in corporate activities. Thus, if an individual acts irresponsibly, he or she may be held personally liable for his or her actions.

Separate and Perpetual Existence
A nonprofit corporation, like a for-profit corporation, is an entity with a perpetual existence that may outlive all of its founders. in addition, the corporation can act like an individual in that it can enter contracts, incur debt, and own property

gyroplanes

12-13-2004, 08:19 PM

Am I missing something here? Isn't this what we knew all along.

>> Thus, creditors of the nonprofit corporation can only reach as far as the corporation's assets to satisfy corporate debts and not the personal assets of the people involved in the nonprofit corporation. <<

By linking the airport to the PRA, like you and a small handfull of others want, it would be one of those assets the creditors could reach.

PRA hired a lawyer and an accountant to write this up when the airport was acquired. It was their idea.

As I said before, if you or Jamie want to hire a lawyer and accountant to write something up that satisfies you and still protects the organization you abandoned, I will present it before the board for you.

madmax

12-14-2004, 02:23 AM

No Tom it's not.

What we were told is that it was set up that way to protect the members from being sued in case of an accident at the airport.

According to the information we have gathered here. The only thing the PRA has to sue for is some, old out dated computers, I think that is the way they said it. Anyway, the PRA really has nothing to sue for without the airport and if you could lose it anyway, it doesn't make since to give it away to someone else so you can't lose it.

Just my thoughts.

Heron

12-14-2004, 04:33 AM

I think my lawyers (hipotetical) will research and look which one to sue in case something happens. Why not sue PRA mentone?
If an accident happens during a fly-in promoted by another Assn. (FW by chance) in our airport, the future plentiffs will sue everyone involved, nest pa?
Still the subject here is the behavior of our directors and the desires of some to see it changed and more professional if not amicable.
Those who are scared of debate, should stay out of it, and as far as I am concerned all should join the PRA, there is nothing else on that level.
I will join pending changes and reactions from the BOD and now I am indebted to those that invited me to join, so it is just a matter of time.
carry on
Heron

Doug Riley

12-14-2004, 01:42 PM

I really should know better than to get involved in this...

Ron, that whitish stuff in your winter pictures looks like a September frost here in VT. The real winter blues don't kick in around here until the snow has been above the tops of the first-story windows for a couple weeks (cuts off your light). No, but seriously --

I don't know the peculiarities of Indiana corporate law. If it's similar to Vermont, however, not-for-profit corporations can't have shareholders. That eliminates the typical setup when corporations are related to each other but want to isolate certain assets from liability (namely, one corp owns all of the other's stock, creating a relationship of parent-subsidiary).

However, it looks as if Indiana not-for-profits (like Vermont ones) can have members, if not shareholders. PRA, Inc. should be the sole member of the airport corp.

The fact that Gary or Glen or anybody else is an officer or director of the corp does not make them "owners" of its assets. The people who run a corporation don't own it; they are representatives who are legally answerable to the members or shareholders. They can be sued by the members/shareholders for putting personal interest ahead of their fiduciary duties, as well as for other forms of inappropriate behavior.

To further seal the connection between the two corps, a provision might be put in the airport corp's bylaws, requiring that only persons who are currently serving as duly elected directors of PRA, Inc. are eligible. Maybe that's already in there.

madmax

12-14-2004, 06:29 PM

The fact that Gary or Glen or anybody else is an officer or director of the corp does not make them "owners" of its assets. The people who run a corporation don't own it; they are representatives who are legally answerable to the members or shareholders. They can be sued by the members/shareholders for putting personal interest ahead of their fiduciary duties, as well as for other forms of inappropriate behavior.

There are no share holders or members of the PRA Mentone Corp.. There is only officers, nothing else.

madmax

12-14-2004, 07:28 PM

Tom

What do you know about the third entity corp. that Pam referred to. She said that the Museum belongs to Glenn. I was lead to believe that the museum belonged to PRA, it is in our Bylaws, not to Glenn with free rent at the Airport. You know that PRA pays $1,000 a month rent for our office space. Surly we are not the only ones paying for every one else's ride. What do you know about that?

Rotornut

12-16-2004, 07:21 AM

The Museum to me will Always be a Memorial to LEROY HARDEE. No matter how you slice it. As many others felt the same way. MJ :(

ps/Hope Cindy is Well sure do Miss her. :)

madmax

12-17-2004, 02:34 PM

I agree with you MJ. That is not the issue thou.

Pam had stated that Glenn owned the Museum and that it is also a 501 (c) corporation. I as many others, was lead to believe that PRA owned the Museum. Pam has been asked several times about this and has not responded. So I'm asking Tom if he knows anything about it or can look into it, Or Tim if he knows,or any body that has any knowledge of what she was referring to, or can find out. Such as a Board member should be able to, or even Glenn since he is a Board member and according to Pam owns the Museum.

jamiebodie

12-22-2004, 09:48 AM

Hey Tom, have you had a chance to answer my questions from several weeks ago? You know the one about board meetings that weren't held in Mentone and if you attended any.

Jamie

gyroplanes

12-22-2004, 10:16 AM

Hey Tom, have you had a chance to answer my questions from several weeks ago? You know the one about board meetings that weren't held in Mentone and if you attended any.

Jamie

I wet back to November and couldn't find the questions you are referring to. Please provide me with a post number or date and i'll do my best to answer any questions you might have.

I have been absent from here for a while due to the dreaded 404 error message blocking my participation and the fact that I had to move everything over to a new "super" computer, from of all places, Aldis

jamiebodie

12-23-2004, 04:15 AM

If you had answered it the first two times I posted it I would not have to go and look for it. However, I will see if I can find the exact question(s) again when I have time. In the mean time you can start by answering Maxie's question about the museum. PRA's bylaws state that we will own and maintain the museum, Pam states differently. Do we need to change our by-laws or is Pam's information incorrect?

Heron

12-23-2004, 08:28 AM

Another year is going by and it is my 4th, many questions unanswered, many things out of place.
So I will ask Santa for one gift: Please Santa, iluminate our leaders? (all of them)
Heron

gyroplanes

12-23-2004, 05:04 PM

Jamie,
They must be real important questions if you can't remember them either :p
Lead me to them and I'll do my best to help you.

Maxie,
When I first ran for the PRA BOD one of my goals was to promote the idea of starting a museum. The PRA president at the time was Ken Brock, Ken also wanted to start a museum, but wanted it to be located in Oshkosh (PRA didn't have a home back then) and he thought it would get the most traffic at Oshkosh.

I brought the museum topic up at nearly every BOD meeting. It's tough to get something like this rolling without taking the "Bull by the horns" and doing it yourself. I guess I didn't want it that bad.

Years later a guy named Glenn Bundy put together a rotorcraft museum at Brookville, OH. Glenn apparently wanted a museum more than I did.
I don't remember the exact details but I think it involved no PRA financial involvement and the renting of a T hangar or two by Glenn.
Glenn worked with Bernie Lindebaum (sp?) an affiliate of the U.S. Air Force Museum in Dayton, and brought the Archimedes VSTOL museum to fruition.

When the PRA BOD voted to buy the Mentone airport, there was talk of eventually moving the museum to it's most logical location, at the PRA's world headquarters, the PRA Mentone airport.

It was my impression that the new museum building was built with a generous contribution from Leroy Hardee's father-in-law and PRA volunteer muscle. We not only gained a museum building but showers and flush toilets as well.

I believe the museum is 99% the sweat and toil of Glenn Bundy and it is probably our most neglected asset.
Is there an owner of the museum other than PRA? I never thought to ask if there was or wasn't. I suppose it comes down to whether the items contained in the museum were donated to Glenn or the PRA.
I know that Glenn bought some of the museum's artifacts himself and I'll bet that if enough people ticked him off he would gladly take his stuff and turn the museum maintenance and growth chores over to someone else.

I have heard that someone in Gary's immediate family has some serious health issues. Nothing public has been said regarding this and I was asked not to say anything at this time. I only mention it in hoping that you will join me in praying for Gary and his family to weather these hard times during what should be our most joyous season.

jamiebodie

12-24-2004, 02:03 AM

You know what Tom forget the questions, the point of them was just to point out that you attend very few board meetings that aren't in Mentone. Of the years that I have known you I don't know that you have ever attended both board meetings in the same year. No wonder you only seem half informed.

I will certainly join in praying for Gary's family.

madmax

12-24-2004, 02:45 AM

Tom

Does that mean that the $3900.00 That Dan Leslie donated to the museum went to Glenn? I'm sure he will be glade to hear that! Thanks.

gyroplanes

12-24-2004, 01:33 PM

Of the years that I have known you I don't know that you have ever attended both board meetings in the same year. No wonder you only seem half informed.

Yes, I've missed a few Bensen days BOD meetings lately. Board members are not required to attend all meetings, you should know that, only one a year is required. I have attended BOD meetings in Texas (2), Oklahoma, Ohio, Tennessee, Indiana, and Illinois. I'm willing to travel, it's my obligation as a BOD member.

I'll have you know that I flew all the way to Waxahatchee Texas just to attend the BOD meeting and then flew back home. I would have been in Texas for the whole fly-in convention, but it was the weekend of my daughter's graduation and one time I lost track of the days at Bensen Days and was out looking at gyros on the flightline during the BOD meeting. 2400 miles of travel to miss a meeting, that's dedication.

Since you appear to be looking for ways to discredit me now? Why?

Try to remember those very important questions and I'll do my best to help out a former PRA member.

Texas Armadillo

12-29-2004, 11:35 AM

A plane was taking off from Kennedy Airport. After it reached a comfortable cruising altitude, the captain made an announcement over the intercom, "Ladies and gentlemen, this is your captain speaking. Welcome to Flight Number 293, nonstop from New York to Los Angeles. The weather ahead is good and therefore we should have a smooth and uneventful flight. Now sit back and relax---OH MY...!"

Then silence.

Soon, the captain came back on the intercom and said, "Ladies and Gentlemen, I am so sorry if I scared you earlier but while I was talking, the flight-attendant brought me a cup of very hot coffee and she spilled it in my lap. You should see the front of my pants!"

A passenger in Coach said, "That's nothing. He should see the back of mine!"

Heron

01-07-2005, 04:26 AM

Ok . . .what is going on on this turf? You guys had fun at the hollydays now lets get back to work.
Jamie a former PRA member? Since when?
I am trying to get in and people are getting out?
Heron

gyroplanes

01-08-2005, 06:42 PM

Ok . . .what is going on on this turf? You guys had fun at the hollydays now lets get back to work.
Jamie a former PRA member? Since when?
I am trying to get in and people are getting out?
Heron

Jamie said he was looking into selling his PRA life membership on ebay. He probably is still technically a PRA member, but apparently not in spirit.

I will miss him either way.

madmax

01-09-2005, 07:36 AM

Jamie said he was looking into selling his PRA life membership on ebay. He probably is still technically a PRA member, but apparently not in spirit.

Tom
you just amaze me sometimes. Now, you are not a member unless you pay your membership and meet other members, interest requirements, WOW. and how do we know who's requirements to meet? like Ralph saying only people that have been members for 20 yrs and meet his involvement requirements, have the right to have and voice an opinion worthy of listening to, he still has not said whether or not I qualify under his rules, so I still don't know if I'm eligible to have an opinion. OH Well!

Under your standards we will never know who is a member and who is not, as our interest may change from day to day, which means the membership list will have to change too, to keep up.
You know the Board has the right to return someone's membership that they feel is detrimental to the organization. Jamie and I are both life members and neither of us have had our membership returned! SOOOOO I'm thinking we are still, (Technically), life members even thou we feel the PRA Board is giving away the farm.

Last time I checked this is still America and we all, every one, have a right to have and voice our own opinion without, others individual restrictions.

barnstorm2

01-09-2005, 08:46 AM

Maxie,

I don't see anyting in Tom's post that says he wants to keep you from speaking your mind. He simply made his own opinion statement about his observation of jamie's 'sprit'

One of us must be smoking the drapes or just wanting to pick a fight.

Ironicly, you are flaming him for not letting you give your opinion when all he was doing was giving his opinion. He says quite clearly "He probably is still technically a PRA member".

Looks like you are just out to stir up some $hit today, even if there is none to stir.

madmax

01-09-2005, 09:26 AM

He says quite clearly "He probably is still technically a PRA member".

So did I!

When he states it that way it make you think his membership don't count because his heart is't in it enough. I think that's Bull!

Jerseywing

01-09-2005, 02:55 PM

I tend to think that if a person is selling their membership on E-Bay they're not too interested in being a member. Irrespective of where their heart may be...
Just an opinion :rolleyes:

madmax

01-09-2005, 04:20 PM

I haven't seen his add on Ebay that you refer to. What is the item # ? I'd like to see it too!

GyroRon

01-09-2005, 05:04 PM

Maxie.... Missed seeing you at the Briar Patch today. I have been to your place 3 times in the last week and a half and no Maxie anywhere to be found! You need to get off the computer so much and go out to the airport more often! Love ya!!! :)

Heron

01-10-2005, 02:48 AM

I am a PRA member in my heart, but "someone" here thinks I should send some money in . . .I will soon, promise! Meanwhile can you guys let me just be a member of this forum and post my stupid opinions and have fun around our little patch?
. . .and why is this debate going personal? I like to hear opinions, collect factual information to help on my decisions of when, who and how to help our Association.
Oh . . .I also like to addiction to see some action taken!
thanks
Heron

Jerseywing

01-10-2005, 07:48 AM

You're right I'm going on a previous post not my own info..
So I'll keep outta this one
Too hot for me

jamiebodie

01-13-2005, 02:23 PM

With the level of BS that is spread around here and the number of suckers who will believe absolutely anything it is no wonder that we can't get any real information from the PRA and that most of the PRA members couldn't care less if the opportunity for them to be robbed blind is a possibility or not.

Tom, here is a question for you as a board member. Are you ready? I sure hope you answer this one! AS A LIFE MEMBER IS IT POSSIBLE FOR ME TO SELL MY MEMBERSHIP ON EBAY? I can't believe that you have stooped to this level. Hell, at least when I have a problem with what someone does I go straight at them, not start a bunch of BS rumors.

Here is another question for you Tom. WILL YOU BE AT BENSEN DAYS FOR THE BOD MEETING THIS YEAR?

A lot of you guys really are a joke. Use your brains, I know that you have them.

I look forward to your answers Tom.

Rando

01-13-2005, 03:36 PM

Tom,

Don't waste your time replying. Let this thread die! Please! Maybe a poll to see if we should end this thread?

jamiebodie

01-13-2005, 04:40 PM

Randy, don't read it. It is that simple. Tom, if you would feel more comfortable answering my questions in an email feel free to email me.

Rando

01-13-2005, 05:01 PM

Why do you have an axe to grind with Tom? I applaud ANYONE who is on the BOD! Even you when you were. I still think you could have done more good for the PRA if you would have stayed on.

richard lidke

01-13-2005, 05:10 PM

jamiebodie

01-13-2005, 05:11 PM

No axe to grind with Tom, unless he is spreading rumors that are not based in fact. However, when Tom answers my question I may be able to add some fact.

Now if I was selling my membership on ebay, don't you think I would advertise that fact here.
Jamie

jamiebodie

01-13-2005, 05:12 PM

Unless something totally new is happening, I seem to remember that a person can go to the courthouse in the respective county where the Mentone Airport is located and find who the property is registered under, and who pays those property taxes. This should solve any problem with ownership, and any silly continuing discussion as to who owns what. Rich Lidke. :)

unfortunantly Richard, those facts have been known for some time and only begin to show that there may be a problem. Do a search and some reading and you can bring yourself up to speed pretty quickly.

Jamie

jamiebodie

01-18-2005, 02:56 PM

Tom?????????????????????????

jamiebodie

02-10-2005, 02:53 AM

Tom, are you going to answer my questions, you keep saying that I should ask my PRA directors and you keep ignoring my questions. You say that I should ask you questions and you will get answers, then I ask and you do nothing. You seem to answer the questions that you will like the answers to and ignore the rest.

So once again here are my questions, taken from a post about 10 posts back.

AS A LIFE MEMBER IS IT POSSIBLE FOR ME TO SELL MY MEMBERSHIP ON EBAY? Since you started the rumor that I was doing so, please answer this question.

WILL YOU BE AT BENSEN DAYS FOR THE BOD MEETING THIS YEAR?

Here is one the Maxie and I have both asked several people repeatedly.

What organization owns the PRA Museum?

Rando

02-10-2005, 04:06 AM

Jamie,

In another thread, Tom mentions that he will be attending Bensen Days. Here is his message regarding that.

Time is running out.

If you might be close to having your project finished for Bensen Days and are in need of an Airworthiness Certification I will be attending and offering my services.

You need to contact me soon to make sure things go smoothly. There is no obligation. I am here to help.
Tom Milton,
gyroplanes@aol.com
(708) 895-0398
__________________
Tom Milton, PRA Chapter Co-ordinator
FAA DAR
Quote: You can lead a horse to water, but if you can make him float on his back, you've got something.

Concerning your questiong about selling your Life Membership on eBay. I am no expert but in my opinion a Life Memberhsip is for the life of the member and is not/should not be transferable.

jamiebodie

02-10-2005, 09:04 AM

Did he happen to answer any of my other questions in any other threads? So he will answer my questions, but not if I ask them?

Good to hear Tom will be able to attend BDs this year.

Jamie

jamiebodie

02-10-2005, 09:09 AM

Randy wrote
Concerning your questiong about selling your Life Membership on eBay. I am no expert but in my opinion a Life Memberhsip is for the life of the member and is not/should not be transferable.

I could not agree more Randy, and Tom knows that this is the case. He knew that lifememberships were not transferable when he started the rumor that I was selling mine on Ebay. Tom was mearly trying to drag my name through the mud. That is why I was trying to get Tom to answer this question and why he avoids it. He knows that if he answers truthfully that all will see he was just trying to stir stuff up with the rumor he started.

Jamie

Heron

02-10-2005, 09:18 AM

The more I try I still can not make sense of your querel, maybe my profile is wrong!
You both strike me as honest, forward thinking and gyro loving people trying to untangle some strange subject.
Wrong?
Heron

gyroplanes

02-10-2005, 10:11 AM

Randy wrote

I could not agree more Randy, and Tom knows that this is the case. He knew that lifememberships were not transferable when he started the rumor that I was selling mine on Ebay. Tom was mearly trying to drag my name through the mud. That is why I was trying to get Tom to answer this question and why he avoids it. He knows that if he answers truthfully that all will see he was just trying to stir stuff up with the rumor he started.

Jamie

I quit reading this thread some time ago. I don't know what prompted me to look at it today.

Jamie, you posted on this forum that you were looking into whether you could sell or give away your life membership. I thought you had said "sell it on ebay". The tone of your post was that you didn't want your membership anymore.

I would rather you retain your membership in the PRA. I value your input.

I am sorry that you followed a dead end path that didn't have an easy resolution. I don't envy the position you put yourself in.

I said in my last post on this subject, that I would wait until Bensen days and the board meeting to resolve this issue.

I don't drag names "through the mud". I don't "Stir things up" (I leave that to Heron)

I did try to "search" the threads for your "ebay or not" membership selling plan, but as you were such a prolific poster, in many threads, I couldn't devote the time to re-reading them all.

Sorry if I was incorrect. My point was only that you renounced your membership. As the Bard said "to ebay, or not to ebay: that is the question, whether 'tis nobler in the mind..."

Heron

02-10-2005, 01:08 PM

I don't "Stir things up" (I leave that to Heron)
Hheheheh Wave is my middle name! :D
But I would love to see you guys come to term and we move along with the next step for the PRA, which I think it should be a training program of some sort (raffle, sponsor, etc) and the new PRA airport (or one of the chapters)
thanks
Heron

Don

02-11-2005, 01:55 AM

Hey, who drops a membership that they've paid for?
I usually wait until I'm kicked out.

madmax

02-17-2005, 02:42 AM

Tim

I had a guy ask me last week if you were just stalling, because it has been so long, or if you really were trying to get some answers from a lawyer? I assured him you were sincere and this was not a ploy to buy time until BensenDays, and you were not one of the good old boys. How ever like he said BensenDays are getting close now. Any Word. We have been patiently waiting.

Heron

02-17-2005, 03:20 AM

And the crowd goes . . .uhuhuhuhuhuhuhhhhhuh!!!!!!!
Heron :) (always in god spirits)

barnstorm2

02-17-2005, 05:30 AM

Maxie,

Please repost in the approprate thread

Ideas to solve the Airport problem.

Thanks.

madmax

02-20-2005, 08:45 PM

This is the right thread! I am complaining that once again there has been no response from a Board member that offered to get some answers in a timely manor and this is the complaining thread.

barnstorm2

02-21-2005, 04:02 AM

This is the right thread! I am complaining that once again there has been no response from a Board member that offered to get some answers in a timely manor and this is the complaining thread.

Maxie, either you or I are very confused ( or perhaps both :confused: ).

I am not a board member. I thought you were asking me a question.

If you were not talking to me then please ignore my post.

If you were, then FYI, I am not a board member and what I am working on is a solution and therefore should be in the thread that discusses and inspired the project.

Rando

07-24-2005, 01:17 PM

The PRA Mentone Airport and PRA issue has been resolved! This was discussed at the Life Members and Regular Members meeting that took place at Mentone. I am not a lawyer so I will let someone else describe the letter that solves the issue. NO ONE AT EITHER MEETING QUESTIONED IT!

Now maybe we can all get back to "growing" the PRA membership. Start planting!

jamiebodie

07-24-2005, 02:23 PM

The letter absolutely states what Maxie and I have been saying all along, the PRA and it's members have absolutely no say so in matters controlling the airport. PRA Mentone owns and controls the airport, if PRA Mentone is dissolved then they promise to give the airport to the PRA. I am sorry if you think that is a good deal then you are ...........................well, dumb. The letter only confirms what we have been saying all along.

jabo

Rando

07-24-2005, 03:16 PM

Some people will never be satisfied. I guess everyone that was at both meetings are ...........................well, dumb! And that you and Maxie are the only smart ones?

gyroplanes

07-24-2005, 11:22 PM

The BoD of PRA Mentone is made up of the officers of PRA and two local area residents. Our treasurer, Robert Rhymer, has a form filed with the state of Indiana that reverts the airport to the PRA should there be a dissolution of PRA Mentone.
This article of dissolution does not negatively effect our liability issues.

Maybe it's time to put the FU back in FUN :rolleyes:

Chuck Roberg

07-25-2005, 05:57 AM

On another item. The airport will be paid off in little over 1 year.

One of the questions asked was airport improvements. The answer (and I paraphrase) Was that No money is to be used from PRA funds to support improvements. Rather that income from the airport be used for improvements and to support PRA.

My thoughts here. I would say in about a year, when the airport is paid off. PRA should start to see some positive numbers from the airport investment.

KenSandyEggo

07-25-2005, 07:25 AM

What if they decide to sell the airport and THEN dissolve PRA Mentone? I don't see anything to stop a move like this.

"My thoughts here. I would say in about a year, when the airport is paid off. PRA should start to see some positive numbers from the airport investment."

Chuck, how can we (PRA regular guys) see anything from something we don't own? That's fine that no PRA money be used for airport improvements, but our money was used and is still being used to purchase it. It just seems strange to me that our money is spent for an airport, someone else owns it and we have no control unless the Mentone board decides to give it to us, and there's nothing compelling them to actually do so. That comment that Gary made to someone to "Get off of MY f*****g airport" still sticks in my craw.

As has been discussed before, the "liability" issue is a non-issue for us members. The airport is the only asset there is. If someone gets hurt and sues and wins the airport, what difference does it make who owns it? There is no reason for us members not to own it. If you recall, it was all done sneakily and the members of PRA were unaware of the ownership set-up for years. Nothing's changed but now somehow miraculously everything is fine because someone typed up a letter that says nothing? What incentive is there for PRA Mentone to dissolve? Apparently there never has been one in their minds and most likely never will be, and we still paid dearly for something that we don't own and have absolutely no control of. Still stinks to me.

automan1223

07-25-2005, 09:34 AM

Ken, & co.

You guys are right. The only thing that has changed after some of you burned maxie, jamie and dan at the stake is that you were proven wrong. Facts, letters and understanding have come to light and I have not seen any appologies. Now that there are a lot of hurt feelings to last a long time. Ken puts it right where it is. Nothing has changed, we were warned and it still stinks. Personally I am going to vote with my feet and my pocket book. You guys can keep on going supporting an org that bilked its members out of years worth of dues, gyro building, gyro promoting and membership building dues to pay for (its my "f---king" airport gary) or you can too say enough is enough and not join the pra.

What the pra org did is wrong, its fraud and its conversion of pra assets to serve private individuals which could be recouped if some lawyer wanted to go after it.

Until the airport ownership is returned to the members I will not be a part of this org. They fought tooth and nail to keep the facts from coming out. And they have hidden behind fake ignorance of using the internet as a timely medium. They have even ignored the issue in the magazine. They have alienated some of the best members the pra ever had and now because the airport is going to be paid off everything is supposed to be cool now ?

I am not renewing my membership with the pra again.
I will spend my dues on an group like ASC or EAA and sponsor this forum.

The fish stink starts with the head of the fish !

Jonathan

Chuck Roberg

07-25-2005, 09:49 AM

Ken, I was only relaying what I heard. I really believe Gary would do nothing to hurt or harm the PRA or it's members. I don't know Gary personally. But I have said "Hi" to him a few times. But I have spoke with a few people who do know Gary and they all speak highly of him.

I don't want to get in a big debate here with you about this subject. Mostly because you can type faster and you know bigger words than I do. :rolleyes: So you can believe what you will and type what you want.

Oh, by the way, Si has a lot more free time now. Hurry up with your J2.

gyroplanes

07-25-2005, 09:56 AM

I would like to know the source of the alleged "Get of MY f*** ing airport" story.

Let's deal in facts and not fantasy here. Tell me who the recipient of this alleged comment was and I will get to the bottom of this.

If it becomes a "he said, he said" were there any witnesses?

I've explained the Mentone airport situation for the last time.

If Ken & Jonathan (and Maxie's friends) want to go on believing that Gary or anyone else is in a position to "steal" our airport, their minds will never be changed and they will have to live with the embarassment of their ways in 18 months.

Brent_Brown

07-25-2005, 11:05 AM

BFI Bob Miller was told that I can't say the year but others can. Bob is from my home town Wellsville, Ohio. I am not sure he will talk about it but I did some training with him and know he is a great guy.
Now you can do with this info what you feel you need to.

Luc De Keyser

07-25-2005, 11:19 AM

Tom,

I claim to be quite impartial to this affair as I have been following it from another continent alltogether. Just based on the information available on this forum, the analysis of Ken J. makes the most sense. To my mind, if the PRA brass cannot convince a person as decent and as fair as Ken J. has appeared over all these years on this and the previous forum then the PRA has, at least, a serious PR problem.

Luc

gyroplanes

07-25-2005, 11:49 AM

Brent,
I know Bob "Alien" Miller quite well. I wondered why he hasn't been around. I will attempt to contact him.

Luc,

I've never defended the PRA PR department except for the fact that as a former Board of directors member I guess I was part of the PR department. In that case I did get the message out. It just fell on deaf ears.

Next week marks my 30 year anniversary as a gyro pilot and PRA member. I started as a volunteer selling and hand pumping PRA fuel out of a drum in a stinky horse trailer during the PRA convention in Rockford, IL.

I soon became a life member and followed in my hero's foot steps by asking for a BoD nomination. I was sponsored by Ken Brock and elected to the board. I have served with pride, honor and dignity ever since.

At various times I was the chapter coordinator, Safety editor and VP of the organization.

I have delivered all of the facts regarding the state of the PRA and the ownership and security of the airport.

I know of few people in a position to report these facts better than I.

Take your infomation from whatever source you wish. :)

KenSandyEggo

07-25-2005, 12:18 PM

gyroplanes

07-25-2005, 12:38 PM

The simple facts are that Gary and Glenn own the airport and used the member's money to pay for it and hid the fact from the members for years and years. Sorry, but I am not comfortable with that situation, and I don't see how any other dues-paying member can be either.

.

Are you kidding me Ken?

Do you really think this?

Haven't you heard anything I've said?

PRA Mentone (basically, the airport) is wholly owned and operated by the PRA (us). PRA Mentone is governed by a board of directors that is comprised of the standing PRA officers and two local area residents.

The airport was not bought in secrecy. The airport purchase was approved by the then current Board members.

All paperwork was drawn up by the PRA's lawyer and accountant and properly filed with the state of Indiana.

A disgruntled former BoD member raised a scenario that frightened a small hand full of members (and I repeat, a SMALL handfull)

Don't insult me Ken, I wasn't some stupid ass worker bee who blindly followed queen Ken or George or Gary. I was at times their staunchest ally and at times their biggest foe. I have been very upset at some executive decisions made over the years.
As a board member my duties were to the PRA and it's members. It was my job to keep the officers in line.
Every PRA member was important to me and I did all I could to answer their questions, dispell misinformation and imagined "facts" and keep them happy and on board with our goals.

The PRA owns an airport. I'm damn proud of that.
PRA's airport is and will continue to be an assett and not a liability.

I can't friggin guess what else any of you could reasonably ask for.

I share Igor's, Ken's, George's and Gary's dream for a better PRA.

I'm just glad I'm out of the fight. I'm done.