New Gyro [Archive] - Rotary Wing Forum

KenSandyEggo

11-17-2004, 12:56 AM

Well, unlke a lot of pie-in-the-sky, "Coming Soon" concepts, it looks like thay actually built a few. 300 sounds kind of high, but how would I know? Depends on the system they use. The A&S I took a ride in spun up to about 450 rrpm for a jump takeoff, but then, the blades can be depitched. Too bad they don't have more info on the setup. Looks like a McCutcheon-type hub-bar. They have 16 videos to look at, but I couldn't get any of them to open.

I found where they mention a rotor trim system. From the photo, it may be able to flatten the blades for prerotating. On the same page, it now alludes to 275 rrpm in prerotation, not 300. Looks like a quality machine with a great (expensive) engine.

GyroRon

11-17-2004, 04:28 AM

Looks like a copy of a Magni to me.

jos

11-17-2004, 08:26 AM

A copy is about the best quote you can give the machine.

JOS

steveb

11-19-2004, 05:37 AM

There are some words about the ELA on the NW Gyro Club website:

http://www.nwgyro.co.uk/newsletters.htm

Mike Hook

11-22-2004, 05:56 PM

I know this one should be in the enclosed two place but here is a korean raf knock off. http://www.alibaba.com/catalog/10660626/Gyroplane.html

Mike

GyroRon

11-23-2004, 04:32 AM

I know this one should be in the enclosed two place but here is a korean raf knock off. http://www.alibaba.com/catalog/10660626/Gyroplane.html

Mike

Looks nice, big horizontal stab and Rotax 912S engine. I like it.

gyromike

11-23-2004, 05:26 AM

Ken,

I don't see how they can flatten the pitch on the blades for prerotation using a McCutchen hub. But if you look at this picture (http://www.elaaviacion.com/images/Ela-07Rotax2003/portada4_640.jpg) they are using a shaft drive system for the prerotator.

You can see a shaft running from the rubber prerotator drive wheel (belt drive, whatever) to the front of the engine to a small 90º gearbox. From there, through a telescopic shaft to the rotor head.

I have considered doing the same thing for my next machine. I saw a gyro at Mentone years ago that used the lower unit gears from an outboard to make the 90º turn, but I'm sure that a small gearbox could be found off-the-shelf. It should eliminate the friction from the teleflex cable rubbing inside the sheath.

Might be something for you to look into for your gyro Ken.
I know you are always looking for ways to spend more money! :D

Ruidoso Ron

11-23-2004, 06:09 AM

From their website:

"Their current weight is of 237 Kilos equipped with Broken 912 ULS"

Makes you wonder what it would weigh with a good one?

Dean_Dolph

11-23-2004, 07:27 AM

..........But if you look at this picture (http://www.elaaviacion.com/images/Ela-07Rotax2003/portada4_640.jpg) they are using a shaft drive system for the prerotator.

You can see a shaft running from the rubber prerotator drive wheel (belt drive, whatever) to the front of the engine to a small 90º gearbox. From there, through a telescopic shaft to the rotor head.

I have considered doing the same thing for my next machine. I saw a gyro at Mentone years ago that used the lower unit gears from an outboard to make the 90º turn, but I'm sure that a small gearbox could be found off-the-shelf. It should eliminate the friction from the teleflex cable rubbing inside the sheath..........Mike, Hank Hinchmann uses a 90 degree gear box on his H-1 Racer. That may have been the one you saw at Mentone. I agree, the use of a 90-degree gearbox is intriguing.

If I were designing a new machine, I would be investigating the use of a prerotator similar to the one that Catfish has and Dave DeWinter modified slightly to use on his Dominator. It does require some room at the front of the engine for the mechanism and the shaft drive. There were rumors that they were getting 300 RRPM. I've got a lot on my plate at the moment but if I think about it I'll see if I have pictures of these machines to post. Maybe MJ can get Richard to supply us with the details.

Dick DeGraw probably has the most elegant one (of course!) on his hybrid Dominator. I say hybrid because it is as much DeGraw as dom! And it may not be his since Carol is the only one I've seen fly it. And then there is the one on Keith Weston's J4B up in Canada........... Some of these devices would make DaVinci proud!

jos

11-23-2004, 01:07 PM

Hello,

In Germany the machine is sold without ****pit because the empty weight is over 250 kg's. It is not allowed original because of the weight it also has a very small fuel tank to reach the 250 kg empty rules.
Just an illustration of the website numbers.
A freind visited in Januari an owner with such a machine. He was told on a hot day he could not take of dual.
The tailsection was badly damaged after 25 hours because it hits the runway on landings!!

JOS

Victor Duarte

11-23-2004, 01:15 PM

Funny , the word **** is censored, so, Now we all fly in a Dickpit. :D :D:D :D :D

jos

11-23-2004, 01:34 PM

****pit or cabin but Dickpit?

JOS

quadrirotor

11-23-2004, 02:12 PM

c o c k p i t or a pit of d i c k?

KenSandyEggo

11-24-2004, 11:02 AM

"Might be something for you to look into for your gyro Ken.
I know you are always looking for ways to spend more money!"

O.K., the cat's out of the bag. A right angle drive is what I'm looking at, but one that is precisely designed for what I want. It's a commercial-grade or industrial-grade box with super-duper hardened gears with something like 8 bearings to handle the load, and that will have a female 3/8ths input and output for my er........off-road vehicle....or was it a machine in my machine-shop? I forget.. The horizontal drive will either be a solid square drive of metal and the vertical will be our regular Wunderlich cable for movement of the head. If precise alignment on the horizontal drive is unable to be achieved for some reason, a short Wunderlich shaft could be used instead. Either way, it gets rid of the heat-producing curve. I didn't realize that some work had already been done on this. Wonder why it never went very far?

gyromike

11-24-2004, 11:19 AM

Andre, JOS, Victor,

I had put some words in the Censored list and hadn't thought of that particular combo (**** and cockpit).

I think I got it fixed now.

Victor Duarte

11-24-2004, 11:35 AM

Hey Mike, that was just funny.. to be in the rotary "best of" ;)
sorry for our loud humour on this thread ;)

barnstorm2

11-24-2004, 08:20 PM

Steveb, that is a cool site. Thanks for posting it!

GyroRon

11-25-2004, 04:58 AM

gyromike

11-25-2004, 06:50 AM

Mike, Hank Hinchmann uses a 90 degree gear box on his H-1 Racer. That may have been the one you saw at Mentone. I agree, the use of a 90-degree gearbox is intriguing.

Dean,

The one I saw at Mentone wasn't Hank's machine. This was a Bensen with a Subaru direct-drive. And it was definitely a homemade setup! :) It seemed to work okay though.

If I were designing a new machine, I would be investigating the use of a prerotator similar to the one that Catfish has and Dave DeWinter modified slightly to use on his Dominator. It does require some room at the front of the engine for the mechanism and the shaft drive. There were rumors that they were getting 300 RRPM. I've got a lot on my plate at the moment but if I think about it I'll see if I have pictures of these machines to post. Maybe MJ can get Richard to supply us with the details.

I built one of those setups from sketches Dave D. sent me. It's still sitting in the hangar ready to be installed on a Subaru I have built up. Stupid me, I forgot to take closeups of Catfish's machine at Bensen Days.

Mike Hook

11-25-2004, 07:41 AM

Mike please take some pics of your gear box set up and post them. I am interested in such a prerotor as well as the hydraulic ones like ernie builds.

Mike

gyromike

11-25-2004, 10:42 AM

Mike please take some pics of your gear box set up and post them. I am interested in such a prerotor as well as the hydraulic ones like ernie builds.

Mike

Mike,

The prerotator I was setting up uses a 12" diameter drive plate on the fron of the Subaru, not a gear box. The rubber Wunderlich drive wheel is mounted almost perpendicular to the drive plate with a telescopic rod to the bendix.

I was thinking of the gear box setup on a Mac engine to replace the teleflex cable. I don't know if it would outperform the cable, but there's only one way to find out. Just gotta find a small right-angle gearbox that's not too expensive.

GyroRon

11-25-2004, 02:23 PM

Try a right angle die grinder... that is a right-angle gearbox???

jos

11-25-2004, 03:02 PM

There is a right angle gearbox in europe what works well and not very expensive.
The make is bonfiglioni. It is used very common in homebuild over here.

JOS

gyromike

11-25-2004, 06:00 PM

Good ideas.
I'll keep an eye out.

Mike Hook

11-25-2004, 06:30 PM

Mike

That setup for a drive kinda reminds me of a old friction disk drive I had on a sawmill that was made before WWII. One thing you could do is make the rubber wheel so it could be made to move across the face of the metal disk that would change the speed ratio. Closer to the center for a softer start and moving it to the outside of the disk for higher rpm. The old sawmill even went past center to change directions buttttttttt lets not change directions of the rotor. :) :) :)

The right angle gear box could come from lowes or harbor freight or Northen Tool. Just a simple right angle gear box for drills. The kind you just chuck up they are cheap and tough.

Mike

KenSandyEggo

11-25-2004, 11:50 PM

I don't know if the cheap ones will handle 30 foot blades with the hydraulic actuator I use. Besides, what's this foreign stuff. Buy American! Oh, wait. I forgot about Birdy, Paul and all our other non-American buddies. (Just kidding, I didn't forget about you guys). Here's a drawing I got today for a well-designes gear-box with the female 3/8" sockets already put in by the manufacturer for me. I just sent them an E-mail asking "How much?" for the first one. I'll attach the drawings I was sent. #$@*!!* The files are too big, so now I have to take them into Photoshop to resize them. Be back in a flash.......Momma bought a chicken.......hmmmmmmhmmmmmmhmmm.......O.K. Let's see how they turned out. No cheap salvage, junk-yard or Harbor Freight parts on my gyro......Wait a minute, the phone is ringing........WHAT!! Are you crazy? I only want to buy one gear-box, not your car! You're darn right we'll talk about it tomorrow! I'm back. O.K., we're in discussion about the price right now. (I don't know if I'm going to like this).

gyromike

11-26-2004, 03:37 AM

Ken,

Is that a worm-gear reduction?

Vance

11-26-2004, 08:19 AM

It looks heavy Ken, how much does it weigh? How much do you think that the current systems weigh? Thank you, Vance

KenSandyEggo

11-26-2004, 10:58 AM

Someone guessed that the current setup weighs around 20 pounds at least, Vance. I don't know if that sounds right. Mike, I had the pdf poop-sheets on the unit and can't find them right now. I'll look later as to the type of gears and maybe find the weight. I'm pretty sure it's not worm-gear driven. I think maybe bevelled gears? I know it's sealed as to the lube. (PRE-LUBED WITH MAGNALUBE-G GRADE H2).

I don't think a little more weight is an issue on my lead-sled.

A friend found a hydraulic pump or motor or whatever those things are and wants to talk to me about trying one out on my gyro.......DOES THIS STUFF NEVER END!!?? Gaaaaawd!

Vance

11-26-2004, 11:08 AM

What fun would that be if this stuff ended? I admire your tenacity! Thank you, Vance

Hognose

11-26-2004, 07:23 PM

Thanks for the link to the UK site. The guy there (Roger? Simon? I forget which one) that went to Madrid and flew the ELA said one thing I thought was interesting -- the frame was of stainless steel.

Now, I am working off stuff I read in a materials book years ago, so I may be barking mad here, but it seems like most stainlesses would be the WRONG material for a gyro frame. Viz:

1. Heavier for the same strength
2. Corrosion -- the one great strength of stainless -- is not a big killer of Magni frames
3. OTOH stainless is usually more brittle than, say, 4130.
4. Not a big deal, but I wonder how they get the paint to stick?

The stuff we use for gyro frames -- 4130 steel if you are Vittorio Magni, various aluminium alloys for everybody else -- is not picked at random. These are good, proven materials for building something that must take the loads of an airframe.

4130 is very nearly an ideal material for building airframes. It is light for its strength, unaffected by normal flight loads (unlike Al which is fatiguing every flight), durable, easily worked, and inexpensive. Its only vice is vulnerability to corrosion, but correcting by choosing a stainless that diminishes all of its virtues -- n'est-ce pas? And corrosion in 4130 can be limited by proper preparation and finishing of the parts.

Just my opinion; would like to hear yours.

cheers

-=K=-

Jerseywing

11-27-2004, 06:36 AM

Stainless is also harder to weld -it can be stick welded but should be done with a TIG rig, no oxy for it it'll burn- it's a nightmare to drill, and doesn't like salt(not that any metal does).
It sure looks pretty though if you don't paint it

jos

11-28-2004, 01:30 PM

Welding stainless is a very complex business.
The risk for micro porosity is very high. It is very simple to have good looking welding surfaces but the risk at the already low resistance at deformation is tremendus.I personally prefer mild steel above stainless for a welded structure.
As mentioned above, the best choise is 4130.
I cannot find any justification in the stainless specifications to use it in an airplane. On the contrary it is probably the worst choise one can make.
Besides the publicity for this gyro there are some bad story's going around regarding the welding of the frame on this so called copy of the Magni gyroplane.
I have no direct proof of these story's but got them from 3 totally different sources and they all 3 mention broken weldings.
A part of the material choise a number of other things can be observed on a close look. A factory build gyroplane cannot have mistakes in the design and assembly that we do not see anymore with the homebuild enthousiast.

JOS

quadrirotor

11-28-2004, 01:38 PM

Stainless steel is very resistant to fatigue!

mceagle

11-28-2004, 07:32 PM

"4130 is unaffected by normal flight loads (unlike Al which is fatiguing every flight)"

I believe that this is primarily because of the typical manner of construction using the above materials rather than the materials themselves. Single member airframes of 4130 have a very short fatigue life, in my experience even less than 6061.
Conversly I believe that a 6061 boxed and triangulated airframe should have a long life.
Both should have an indefinate life if not subject to flexation.

- My opinion only.

birdy

12-10-2004, 03:02 AM

At 10 hours you think you are invincible.
At 100 hours you realise that you were not.
At 1000 hours you realise that you never will be.
Tim McClure

Hmmmmmm..................... ,I must be still at the 10 hour mark Tim :D :D .

bones

12-10-2004, 10:17 PM

Damn do any of us get past the ten hour mark,:)

Gordon Gibson

12-11-2004, 10:35 AM

Tim

You mentioned "single member airframes" by that did you mean like the Challenge machines that the legendary James Brown used to build in Perth?
I know they had a lot of trouble with those because they were too 'solid'. A guy from QLD told me his looked like a leopard at one stage, due to all the spots of primer paint on the re-welds he had to do because of cracking.

Thanks, Gordon Gibson, NZ.

mceagle

12-11-2004, 05:22 PM

Yes Gordon, the Challenge machine was one such design that came to mind. A single member mast (or keel) made from 4130 steel if not a good Idea. It just does not seem to take the constant flexation that 6061 does. Perhaps some of the more technical engineering minds may be able to tell us why. I have had to modify several such designs that have developed cracks in the mast or keel (or both) in as low as 200 hours flight time.

Gordon Gibson

12-12-2004, 06:05 PM

Memo to gyro designers:

The rotor blades basically do three things:

(1) They provide lift
(2) They provide control
(3) They hammer the sh*t out of everything!

(perhaps more relevant to the larger diameter rotors).

Thanks, Gordon Gibson.

birdy

12-12-2004, 06:23 PM

3) They hammer the sh*t out of everything!

Only if they arn't tuned to the machine correctly Gordon.[my 28' AK's bearly move the head.]

Gordon Gibson

12-13-2004, 10:18 AM

Yeah Birdy

Guess I might have jumped the gun with my last post, possibly it was a bit harsh on the likes of yourself who persevere and know what you are doing to tune the blades properly to the rest of the machine, especially at the speeds & weights you mostly fly at.
With your setup do you get much variation in rotor vibration (if any) when flying 2-up?

My only experience was a set of Skywheels that would be smooth with just one up but stick another person in and they shook like a dog sh*****g chicken bones. Spent many many hours trying to tune then smoother.
AK blades? Metal blades, Oz made?

Thanks, Gordon, NZ.
p.s. can you send over some of your hot weather, say about 28C would be good. Summer is a rip off so far around this place. At this rate we are heading for hail on the front lawn on Christmas day! (again).

birdy

12-13-2004, 11:08 PM

These AK's are pretty well spoton with the cone set.Oneup with low fuel they are just start'n to shake,twoup with full fuel the same,on the other side of the cone set.So they usualy don't shake much at all under normal conditions.Its not so much the weight that stretches the cone limits but more the DA/RRPM combinations.I was up a couple o days ago ,one up and low fuel but the air was very thin and rrpm at SL of round 370/380!!! :eek: .SL rrpm is usualy round 330.Was almost get'n cabin hop like the old RAF blades. :mad:
Ak's are set in Oz. ;)

And no,your not git'n any hot weather coz theres only 40 odd degrees c here now,and thats just enough. :D