New Gyro designed by Animal for Phoenix Rotorcraft

[animal]

Well as some of you know, I have been in close Contact with Anthony of Phoenix Rotorcraft and after many conversations he has agreed to let me design a Gyro that he will produce and sell kits for.

anyway. here is a rough drawing of the new Concept Gyro that will be called the El Diablo 1 and 2.

what will set this machine off is, it will have a EJ-22 with redrive for power and will be offered as a single seat machine that will be fully enclosed with a modified Body of the Falcon style. will have a more rounded windshield mount for one thing. ( remember my falcon thread where the last screw stressed the windshield and cracked it? )

And we will be making an insert to widen the body and a kit to convert it to a 2 seat side by side Gyro. cowled in engine will be standard.

It will be offered with standard flight gauges or optional glass panel.

Also this machine will have aluminum fuel tanks that will mount behind the cab on each side. so no ethanol issues with the fuel tanks.

Anthony has already crunched some numbers and we are looking at a complete kit price of under $23,000.

I am hoping that now that I have the measurements all drawn out Anthony will get the kit ready for me to build for him and with any luck have the Prototype at Bensen days or Mentone.
yeah I know, time is running out for Bensen days,but if he supplys the whole kit for me to build at my own shop, I think I can pull it off.

so there ya have it,what do ya think?

oh the tail is a triple tail with winglets on the top and bottom of the H-stab. stab span is 72" x 24"

the drawing is scale. so that gives ya a pretty good idea.

about 8'4" to top of rotorhead. 12" drop keel. to swing a 72" prop. nose to tail is 15 feet long.

If you like the Design and want one of the first kits you can E-mail me at phoenixrotorcraftsales@gmail.com or just call Anthony at Phoenix Rotorcraft at 919-340-0038 and tell him you are calling about the El Diablo.

[m.sig]

Animal

Are you planing to have it listed on the FAA list. For the two seater will it be alote more expensive. it is very interesting I like the design. I already start to dream about it.... are you thinking about a suspension on the landing gear.

Marc

[Wiplash]

Good to see progress from Phoenix Rotorcraft.

I had a look at thier website. Are they still building Sparrow kits?

I see they are building Rotors, that's good news. What are they using to bond the leading edge insert inside the blades? Is the hub bar the same that RotorHawk offered or has it been changed?

And finally, would they consider bringing some rotors to Mentone or Bensen Days?


Thanks,
Todd

[Riff Raf]

El Diablo
Is not a good name for a gyro that has not been built and or test flown...:rip:

[GyroDoug]

Tim,

The key to getting some of these units sold will be to get the prototype built and flying and get it in front of a crowd. I find it hard to believe you can have it built and flying at Bensen days but I believe Mentone is a reasonable goal. Remember you have to get it signed off and the 40 hrs flown off if you want to bring it to Mentone and start to demo the machine. That's a bunch to bite off but where you have all the building experience you have, I'm sure you can do it a lot quicker than your typical new builder would be able to. Good luck with it. You seem to have some really good idea for it. But having a flying model will really tell the tale.

[GyroCFI]

you.

the Hub bar has many improvments and is now having the Coneing angle machined into the hub bar it's self, doing away with all the shims and stuff of Carnes old hub bar design.

I have a hub bar that Neal made back in the early 90's that has the coning angle machined into it. I never used it since I went to Skywheels. it looks almost itentical to the ones in the pictures.

[Sir Real]

Great news!

I have one plaintive request: Can you make it comfortable for bigger guys? Those of us bigger than 6'2"/270 could use a little love...

[dragonflyerthom]

Congrats Tim

It is looking good for the homebuilders team.

[bmoore2156]

Animal,
If I was going to design a gyro I would make sure it had a flexible mast of some type. A bonded 2x3" mast will shake the airframe apart I would think.
Brad

[wdr_601]

I really like the planned installation of the EJ-22. Its a highly regarded engine.
The EJ-25 (which I love in my car,btw) tends to run the number 3 cylinder lean at high rpms due to the nature of the serial port fuel injection. I read on one of the subaru boards about a parallel fuel injection modification to fix that issue. The first generation EJ-25's also had an oiling problem in that the crankshaft didn't throw enough oil the number 3 cylinders way.

If we can just get the FB-25 engine :)

[RotorTom]

I promise you, I mean no disrespect to Animal. I have grown quite fond of him through his posts. He seems to be a hard working, well meaning, ambitious fellow and I wish the best for him in all endeavors.

But I am wondering if any of you have had the same thought I have had ... OR AM I WRONG?

Should we expect a designer of an experimental Gyro to at least have experience flying gyros? (I do not fault Animal for not flying -- perhaps circumstances prevent that). But how much should we expect from designers?

Am I wrong? Maybe so. Is it common for designers not to have any experience (or very limited experience)?

Obviously, the proof is in the pudding ... and I hope the pudding is really good. But I simply believe the overall confidence level for me would be much stronger had a gyro been designed by someone with vast flight experience.

I believe this is so when it comes to being a dealer as well. Is it just me? Or have others had similar thoughts.

(Again, Animal ... you are a great guy and this is NOT targeted at you)

[Passin' Thru]

I promise you, I mean no disrespect to Animal. I have grown quite fond of him through his posts. He seems to be a hard working, well meaning, ambitious fellow and I wish the best for him in all endeavors.

But I am wondering if any of you have had the same thought I have had ... OR AM I WRONG?

Should we expect a designer of an experimental Gyro to at least have experience flying gyros? (I do not fault Animal for not flying -- perhaps circumstances prevent that). But how much should we expect from designers?

Am I wrong? Maybe so. Is it common for designers not to have any experience (or very limited experience)?

Obviously, the proof is in the pudding ... and I hope the pudding is really good. But I simply believe the overall confidence level for me would be much stronger had a gyro been designed by someone with vast flight experience.

I believe this is so when it comes to being a dealer as well. Is it just me? Or have others had similar thoughts.

(Again, Animal ... you are a great guy and this is NOT targeted at you)
Tom, you have expressed my concerns EXACTLY.
I have been hesitant to post my concerns, but this whole thread causes me some very uneasy feelings. As your post implies, there is much, MUCH more to designing and engineering an aircraft than just making lines on paper.
Although I do sincerely wish Tim well, I honestly feel this is way over his head.:yo:

[scottessex]

I think that the Falcon was a proven design, But Neal was not on the internet and was hard to get a hold of. At least Tim and Anthony are online and reachable. Big plus.
I think that sticking to the Falcon line and getting both Tim and Anthony signed off and flying would be a great business move for the company. We need more US manufacturers
Not everyone can afford an $80k gyroplane. I want to see these guys do well, But yes I have to agree, there needs to be flying prototypes, that can be demoed at fly ins.
I think that Tim and Anthony both have the enthusiasm that is needed, they just need to take the next step and start flying what they build, and I think they could have some success.
Make sure you guys show up at Bensen Days!!

[John Stahl]

Looks great Tim. How long till you design a tandom?

[GyroDoug]

[QUOTE=RotorTom;408866]
Should we expect a designer of an experimental Gyro to at least have experience flying gyros? QUOTE]

It seems to me that whether a person is a seasoned pilot or not, has very little to do with his ability to design an aircraft. Now certainly being an experienced Gyro Pilot is a big advantage when it comes to understanding how Gyros fly and what their limitations are. But I really don't think it is required to be able to design an aircraft. Now, someone has got to test the new aircraft and for that you really need a "Very Experienced" Gyro pilot.

To design an aircraft simply takes knowledge. That can be earned through formal training or it can be learned through years of experience and the college of hard knocks. I would think the ideal designer would be someone who has both formal training and years of first hand experience. However life is full of examples of people who did not have all that convention would say they should have, but because of a dream and superior effort or perseverence they were able to accomplish miraculous acheivments.

Igor Bensen had formal training and designed an incredible machine that was the genesis for the sport gyroplane world today. However, people came along after him, without formal training and without the knowlege they needed and started making changes that they didn't understand the full implications of, and it killed a lot of people. Today we have figured out what a lot of those problems were and we can avoid them. But there are still issues we don't fully understand and even the most knowledgable experts we have, disagree on some issues. Being a shadetree designer simply has some inherent risks involved and I don't think being an experienced pilot will necessarily negate those risks. I would personally prefer someone that was an experienced aircraft designer. Having produced other designs that had a proven successful track record, would be my first priority. However, in our small work of Gyroplanes, we need to be greatful for anyone that is willing to work to advance our sport.

We just need to recognize the dangers involved with unproven designs. We should be asking for the results of stability testing. And realize that when you are one of the first people to get a new design, you become a beta tester, whether you wanted to or not. That's why it's called Experimental. Just go into it with open eyes and realistic expectations of what you should expect to get.

Tim,

I wish you nothing but good in this project.

[skier]

Animal, I think I have the same concerns as some other people. I am wondering what kind of analysis you have done on the structure of the gyro. Have you done (or farmed out to a capable organization) vibration analysis? Static Structural analysis?

Good luck with the project. I hope it works out well for you.

[PW_Plack]

Pete thanks for your vote of confidence...I know who my friends are and the ones that are not...

Tim, maybe not. Friends don't let friends drive drunk. You seem to want only friends who will be quiet and watch.

You have taken an opportunity many of us would, and nobody blames you for that. It's heady stuff to have someone with money and production capability commit to build one of your designs, and it comes at an opportune time in your life. You probably have very little to lose in taking this shot, and we all wish you the best.

But Anthony is piling up the unknowns pretty deep here. I admire his risk tolerance, but at some point you'll need some very risk-tolerant first customers to be the guinea pigs. And if your first 10 sales are made to people who by nature are not careful, will these be the best pilots to establish the company's early safety record?

All these questions will fade if the machines prove safe and reliable, and you might even find a big-name instructor willing to endorse them after looking them over, but everything here points to a steep curve to get the first few sales.

[m.sig]

Tim

Good thread. To have exchange several e-mail with Tim, I can assure you, that Tim had provided me with a large quantity of information on everything and anything about gyro. He surely talk about his dream project but never try to sale only the El Diablo and that is very good for me, learning learning...

Good luck Tim
Marc

[Russ Hobbs]

Tim

Every successful business started with a dream, sometimes it all comes down to luck, but most of the time success comes down to plain old hard work and drive. you undoubtedly have the drive and ambition. Do it right, and you'll succeed. Good fortune my friend.
Russ

[RotorTom]

I want to re-emphasize that I am on Tim's side. I wish him total success! I was simply doing my "wondering" thing about experience vs design.

[All_In]

Removed as Tim feels it was not helpful!

[All_In]

Removed as Tim feels it was not helpful!

[All_In]

But you are loving it right?!!!
Way to go Tim!

[animal]

Tim- Cant wait to see your pictures. Did Anthony say anything about my phone call? Stan

yes he did, but sadly no help with the training funds anytime soon, I think he does not have it to spare, he did send me home with a few Body parts.

[All_In]

Removed as Tim feels it was not helpful!

[Riff Raf]

As I really try and avoid the Devil so when I read the name even now I cringe a little so I’m not sure I’m sold on the name either. Maybe a marketing poll would be a good idea?

John
I made the same observation in post #8
and just got ignored.:lalala:

[Brent_Brown]

I made the trip to see Anthony 4 times and we talked along time. I told him he needed to make a demo gyro and fly it at as many events as he could. My job has me gone all the time or I would help him get a gyro in the air.
Tim you should complete your training for you not anyone else. In the long run that will be better for you than a old bike.
Keep posting I look forward to them.

[All_In]

Removed as Tim feels it was not helpful!

[m.sig]

Tim

Keep the good work, some days are better than others and I am sure you will be recompensated very soon, by looking at a 2 seats el diablo in the sky.

Marc

[scottessex]

I feel your pain Tim. The bottom has dropped out of the bike market in a big way, a buddy of mine just bought a 2004 dyna W/G for $8K you can get a 2000+ sporty for $2500 all day now. I was going to sell the mustang, but what was worth $5K plus a couple of years ago is not worth near that, people just are not getting off the money.
Anthony seems motivated, I have not met the man, but I have serious reservations about someone putting all that time and energy into something, Helicopters, gyros, rotorblades, etc. But he has nothing flying, nothing that can be shown, seems to me a flying prototype would be a good business move, even getting his own rating, or hiring someone who can demo the aircraft.
I mean how much faith would you put in buying a custom motorcycle designed from
someone who had never ridden a motorcycle?
That is just my observation.

[scottessex]

Another point......Motorcycle names do not transfer over well to aircraft.
I.E. Widowmaker, Black Death, Death from Above. Terminator, etc, :D

[All_In]

But where's Bob?

That's a good one too!!!

[Arnie Madsen]

As for me guys PLEASE let me know any negatives regarding the Genesis.


:):).....They are all painted yellow & blue.....:):)

[All_In]

Removed as Tim feels it was not helpful!

[Vance]

yes he did, but sadly no help with the training funds anytime soon, I think he does not have it to spare, he did send me home with a few Body parts.

Hello Tim,

On my entrepreneurial path through life I have found that separating the effort from the reward with time may augment the reward and makes the adventure more pleasurable.

I imagine the process will enhance your skill set.

I have found that an expectation of immediate gratification for effort is often the prelude to disappointment.

I suspect that Anthony hasn’t made money on this venture yet either.

This interface with Anthony sounds like an exciting opportunity for an interesting odyssey.

I do not regret the things I have done; it is the missed opportunities that I regret.

I don’t know how you can consider your motorcycle that you have enjoyed all those years a loss. Mechanical things general depreciate with use. The joy they bring in the interim is the point for me.

I could not get paid for the hours I have worked on the Predator or sell her for what I have spent on her. I consider it time and money well spent.

Thank you, Vance

[animal]

Well as Normal anytime I start a thread. someone has to high jack it from it's intent.

Due to the fact I have enough stress on my life, I am not going to post anymore about the new design until it is built. if it even gets built.

[All_In]

John please take your discussion of your Gyro to your thread so I may get back to updates on my design.

I am not in your thread trying to knock your Gyro.

I ask the same respect.

OK buddy I removed all my comments so sorry you took it that way! My only intent was to help you sell more rides!!

Good luck!!!

[RotorTom]

John,

I read nothing inappropriate in any of your posts. As you aptly pointed out ... criticism is the best feedback you can get. And in business if you can't take it, you can't make it!

And Tim ... I don't believe anyone in this entire thread was against you in any way.

Tom

[gyroplanes]

Hi Tim,
I have seen a lot of gyro designs come and go. I wish you and Anthony the very best with your endeavor.

Before I owned the SnoBird Aircraft Company, they had an alliance with a business network that turned into design assistance from a college that produced some impressive aeronautical studies with cross sections and a wind tunnel model of a two place enclosure for the tandem "Adventurer".

SnoBird built one, it was flown, changes were made, and it was chainsawn into oblivion.

I know some of Cierva's credentials, suspect he wasn't a pilot, but, the Wright brothers had not many credentials either.

The fastest way to make enemies and get in trouble is to take non-refundable deposits, pre-sell kits you can't deliver and, most importantly, make your customers be the test pilots.

A young man in Michigan had ten gyro kits in stock and had already sold several. He flew the snot out of the ship.

I noticed he pulled back on the throttle to increase power. After he landed I asked him why he designed his gyro contrary to the norm, he responded "I didn't know aircraft throttles were push to increaase RPM".

I suggest you at least bring an airframe to BDays and let us look it over. You'll be surprised how helpful our gyro community can be.

[All_In]

Tim my friend. I never attacked you, not once! No more than you attacked my name Miss-Behaving in the Genesis thread. We have a difference of opinion that is all! I and others were only telling you should keep the Devil and Death away from gyros we have a bad enough reputation. Just like my approving of Ron changing the name of the Death Spiral to the Twist and shout!

What is the only difference, you see, when you told me what was wrong with my name and you said I could do better in creating a new name. The difference I did not take it personally! Instead I'm taking your advice and changing my name 'instantly' as soon as I heard the negative comments.

Tim I reached out to you out of love. I was in fact sharing with you exactly what I'm doing as the so called better salesman, so you could have just copied. But you choose to interpret it as an attack. If I did not care I would not have given you my 45 years of trade secrets or tried to help you succeed.

What is the real difference between us. If we do not agree with you 100% you interpret it as an attack! Point out negative to me and I change as soon as you let me know, without taking it personally, business is like that.

[Resasi]

Tim, I have been an interested observer for some years on all your threads.

I have seen very little attacking done on this one, some constructive comments, which you have taken as attacks, and a lot of support from many on the Forum who have nothing but goodwill towards you and are your friends.

You have not progressed with your flying, and there can be many reasons for that we are not aware of, certainly finances affect the majority of us. I do believe that this may well bother you more than it should. Not everyone can fly and some although they want to and do enjoy it find it a little difficult.

You have contributed build logs which have been followed by many, and I think all have wished you nothing but well with your latest endevour.

I and my son have built a gyro using plans that were put out by Don Shoebridge and he doesn't yet fly, so it is not as though one has to be a gyro pilot to design or help design and promote one, or that I am prejudiced in that way. Yes I certainly think it would help a designer if he could because it would give him better insight into what is good for the design, but I do not believe it to be absolutely essential.

You tend to be a little on the defensive/sensitive side and this may well simply be your nature, but it may cause you to attack or push away friends unnecessarily which is sad.

Think about this, reflect on it for a little while, then go right back to doing what you aspire to, but do realize that not everyone is out to get you, and that pushing friends away doesn't help. Most of us have few enough as it is.

[scottessex]

You'd think a big ol tough biker dude would have thicker skin...C'mon Tim, don't take your toys and go home, prove your commitment, don't bail out, at least follow through, don't bail out this time. :D

[RotorTom]

If he bails this easily -- before really getting started -- he does not have what it takes to succeed in business. It is that plain and simple and sad.

Life is filled with people who will love, hate, argue, discuss, cheer and snicker at your ideas. Using them all as "fuel" will turn those ideas into accomplishments.

No attack, just reality.

[Riff Raf]

John did not start in on the name
I did post # 8. so if you didn’t see it, I must be on some ignore list you have.

But any way,
John speaks much more clear than I do.
It was only to help with marketing.

Good story: (True by the way)
I have a bicycle shop, a company makes a bike called (you guessed it) El Diablo
Full carbon fiber full suspension frame all the best components top to bottom, it weighed 25 lbs. (a good thing)
I could not sell a single one to save my life for a whole year :drama:(long time to floor 3 expensive bikes)
After many dealer complaints:rant: they changed the name the next year and guess what booming sales everywhere.

Good luck.

Prove these guys wrong don’t bail out!

[wdr_601]

I liked the picture of the Falcon you had built with the revised tail. (The tall tail with the parham stabilizer set behind it on the keel.)

I was looking forward to a an enclosed single done right. Sorry to see you are bailing.

Bottom Line : I think if you had re-introduced the single-place Falcon with the P.R.A. reccommended changes, it would have complemented the dual-place UFO Anthony is trying to market.

[GyroRon]

This is ridculous..... Tim, seriously man. If you post something on this forum, anyone can jump in here and post anything they want. That is how forums work. Topics can change... things can be said you may not want to here... People will comment good and bad..... It is just how it is.

I read every post in this thread, there is no reason for you to be upset.

[DennisFetters]

I have a better Idea, Since everyone wants to attack me every time I a start a Thread and I have enough stress in my life, today when I go to Phoenix I am just going to back out of the whole thing.
I really don't need the stress, I have not made a dime so far. I have put a lot of work into trying to help Phoenix Rotor craft. But hey all I see is anytime I do a thread no matter what it is on I get attacked and it turns to crap. so guess what ya'll can have it.
I am done.

I was just trying to help bring a kit to market that people could afford. the Falcon is already a proven gyro. all I did was updated it with Mod suggested by the PRA. but since I am the one that introduced it. I just opened my self up for more attacks.

Screw it. it's not worth it to me.

Welcome to the world of promoting, selling and dealing with the public. Sometimes it makes you angry, don't it? Now try doing it and taking this crap for a lifetime, and they were even kind to you!

[Mike484]

Dennis knows this well. Thanks for hanging in there Dennis, you have helped our sport tremendously even if some don't realize it.

[Riff Raf]

Tim
by the way..., If you think you have stress walk ten feet in my shoes or some one else here on the form!!!
I would love to be where you are.. Bro!!!
Best wishes ...
I'm done and will crawl back into my hole............

[GyroRon]

Tim
by the way..., If you think you have stress walk ten feet in my shoes or some one else here on the form!!!
I would love to be where you are.. Bro!!!
Best wishes ...
I'm done and will crawl back into my hole............

For real....... !

[GyroRon]

If you want to put up your own website or your own forum then you can be boss of it and dicate what is said in it. When you put it on a open forum, it is OPEN for anyone who wants to, to come in and comment. Sometimes it can be bad or undesireable comments, more often it is good and desireable comments.

Most of us have had thread we started that didn't go the way we wanted. I know I myself have gotten real upset in years past with some of the comments made in some of my threads. The flip side is I know dam well I have gone in other peoples threads and said stuff they didn't want me putting in there.... And Tim, I have seen you do the same.

At the end of the day it is just little letters in cyberspace... means nothing.

[Brian]

I could talk about stress we need spring bad

[gyromike]

It's like deja vu all over again...


:)

[BEN S]

But Tim, I gotta ask, have you given ANY thought to how this is being perceived by prospective clients of Phoenix Rotorcraft?
I bet the owner is wishing he hadn't been so quick to offer a sales spot right now. When you represent a company's product, YOU represent the company's product.
This is just some sales advice, and since you were working on commission, you might want to consider it.

Ben S

[wdr_601]

Seriously, I thought this build was going to be, in essence, the new improved Falcon, with the modifications you made and the PRA recommendations.

I liked the idea of a single enclosed gyro with the EJ-22 that could make the historic Rome to Paris flight on a single tank. (KRMG to KPHT). I want a nice, inexpensive cruiser(compliant with ASTM) that can carry a big guy like me. (with cabin heat and a gizmo for an iPad)

No one is making a gyro like this.

William

p.s. and with a name like El Diablo, i thought it better have a cruciform/parham type tail as mentioned in my other thread. :)

[animal]

No I have talked to Anthony, and we have decided to call it the Dream catcher.

Will it ever get built as I designed it, who knows.

Anthony is already craw fishing on some of my primary design Ideas, mainly the cab, so I can already see it going out of the price market range I was shooting for. he wants to offer it a single seat cab or a two seat cab. if the price of the engine cowl tells you anything.

I can see it being driven out of the designed price range and market I was targeting.

EX- the rear engine cowl alone for the Falcon Body that will be used he sells for $1,469.

here is the link to the new website with prices.

http://www.phoenix-rotorcraft.com/

At this Point I don't care what it is called, paint it pink and call it the Fuzzy Bunny daisy sniffer as far as I care.

that should sell well with our Cali Friends.. :)

( see's visions of flower children and hippys flying pink gyro's.. lmao )

[animal]

Seriously, I thought this build was going to be, in essence, the new improved Falcon, with the modifications you made and the PRA recommendations.

I liked the idea of a single enclosed gyro with the EJ-22 that could make the historic Rome to Paris flight on a single tank. (KRMG to KPHT). I want a nice, inexpensive cruiser(compliant with ASTM) that can carry a big guy like me. (with cabin heat and a gizmo for an iPad)

No one is making a gyro like this.

William

p.s. and with a name like El Diablo, i thought it better have a cruciform/parham type tail as mentioned in my other thread. :) This was only a Concept I had proposed to see if their would be an interest.

P.S. William, my first design was to use the Tall Tail, but Anthony wanted to use a Triple tail like the new tail on the UFO scaled down.

here is what I had first planed for the H-stab and winglets, and that has already been changed.