Must Read info about Xenon and KISS Gyros

[ventana7]

Anyone considering a Xenon or KISS Gyroplane or cosidering becoming a dealer for these products -- must read info at:

<added by administrator>

Link Removed

If Interested, please contact Rob Dubin via PM

[Resasi]

Rob this would seem to be a post that has not been gone into lightly. I am aware that you had links with Xenon have had dealings with them and did part company some time back.

I, and I am sure many others have followed the Xenon from the beginning. It appeared to be an interesting machine that performed well, had satisfied owners and stands a chance of getting approval for being a 51% Kit in the US.

I considered it for Kenya, and toyed briefly with the idea of asking for dealership but after trying to deal the the KCAA (Kenya Civil Aviation Authority) dropped that idea. at present aviation legislation with specific regard to gyros there is particularly difficult (it doesn't exist), although the aircraft I think has a definite commercial potential. I also had another possible promotion that has yet to take place.

It would seem from this post that what will undoubtedly follow, will be instructive and may well cast some light into hitherto unseen corners. In situations like this we the buying public may well get a better insight before committing ourselves to what for many is a sizable financial commitment. I know that I have for some time been considering this machine as a possibility.

I wait with interest.

[Mike484]

Pretty harsh, this could start another world war on the forum.

[Buck]

Some of it needs a re think, like leaving France in the middle of the night to go to Poland, both countries are in the EU, so Poland would not be any good if trying to flee the authorities as the French police could drive to Poland, have him arrested and handed over, then drive back to France. The rest I cannot comment on but first indications are of an angry individual who is not afraid to make some stuff up, perhaps you should take your fight to a quiet room somewhere rather than humiliating yourself in public.

[willisbr]

I smell dirty laundry. Some just should not be aired out in public. It's a wonder why manufacurers bother even trying to do business in the US when disgruntled individuals can attempt a single handed destructive move. Xenon and the gyro movement in general is bigger than you sir. Work out your differences personally or get out of the way.

[tadgyro]

Rob only post a link to the site for any one to read if have a interest to read
Did noting wrong . This is his own opinion and he have right to it.
Don't like it don't read it.
Freedom of opinion it is ore right in this Country
Tadgyro

[willisbr]

It absolutely is a right to speak your mind in this country. And the rest has the right to take that and make a character judgement. But if someone wants to lean on freedom of speech over discretion, be my guest.

[Buck]

I think the nature of the op means the admin should remove the link.

[Mike484]

Freedom of speach is great, tell the guy how you feel but a web page and thread on the forum? Way over the top.

[StanFoster]

Rob- Please call Chuck Roberg and ask him what he thinks about his dealings with some people in the gyro industry.


Stan

[willisbr]

http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=148869&postcount=1

[Resasi]

There have been pertinent points made for and against Rob's posting.

Yes there have been ugly squabbles on the forum and yes no-one likes them, however, there have also been some useful heads-ups on some less than pretty marketing practices that have cost people a lot of money.

If Rob has some genuine grievance or knowledge about support, or lack of, for this machine, then I for one would like to know about it.

I have been aware of comments made on this Forum in the past by US owners about various items and mods that indicated some possible problems with support. I am not interested in a slanging match over a personal disagreement but do continue to be interested in the machine, and any information that may save me time/trouble/money down the line should I buy or wish to promote one and that was specifically what his post indicated it was about.

[ventana7]

I do not intend to respond to each comment on this thread. This is not a pissing contest between Rapahel and me.
Celier Aviation has announced on this forum they are looking for new dealers. I have personally had contact with 11 or 12 Xenon dealers around the world. Eight have either quit or had dealerships they paid money for taken away. All have had very difficult dealings with Celier. All invested large amounts of time and money- in the hundreds of thousands of dollars.
I do not want to see more people lose money.
Rob

[Buck]

Well Raphael does not seem to getting involved, so it seems to be a one sided wetting your nappy contest.

[Resasi]

Bit early Buck this post is only hours old.

[dragonflyerthom]

Yep and has already generated 15 posts no 16 now. If you can't air your laundry here then where can you do it Buck? I personally think it is in the gyro community's interest to know if one our own has been ripped off. This may be his only avenue to get his grievances taken care of. How or what would you do in his situation?

[Buck]

Yep and has already generated 15 posts no 16 now. If you can't air your laundry here then where can you do it Buck? I personally think it is in the gyro community's interest to know if one our own has been ripped off. This may be his only avenue to get his grievances taken care of. How or what would you do in his situation?

It is not all as it seems, this entire thread should be deleted. People cannot get a true picture from tirades like this and the forum is not the place for it, I would be very surprised if the rules allow for personal attacks like this, I moderate on a couple of forums and threads like this are detrimental to the community as a whole.

[dragonflyerthom]

Buck

I won't post anymore on this on the forum. I have just received info that will not be posted here. Thanks for your concern.

[PW_Plack]

Rob, just my personal opinion, but if you have more details from former dealers you should have waited till you were ready to post their stories. Anything you attribute to them is hearsay so far. The site has the feel of a personal attack. I can claim someone "lied and cheated," or "left France for Poland in the middle of the night," but until there is detail, the accuser is the one who looks bad.

I do recall Raphael's post here (http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28725) announcing he was opening a new US distributorship based in Miami, and wondering where that left you after years of early work and waiting for E-LSA.

I don't know what I'd need to feel secure in a distributorship for a foreign manufacturer, but I think that bar just got raised.

[Heron]

I feel funny about this . . .
Rob, sorry for your troubles, I hope something good will come out of this . . .one day!
Nobody here can tell what a member will do, he has the right to make mistakes here and correct them here!
Heron

[Dale Young]

If overseers here on this forum see fit to censor potentially pertinant advice concerning a particular aircraft, Then why don't they also go ahead and censor information reguarding horizontal stabs, faulty engineering, and fly-by-night companies? THAT KIND OF INFORMATION IS WHAT WE COME HERE FOR!

Several years ago, a senior member on this forum told me to STEER CLEAR of a shady ultralight supply business in California. ( I believe they were called "Airstar"). Long story short, They took me for several hundred dollars before shutting their doors.

If the info is slanderous, That's one thing. But, if it is pertanent information reguarding the aircraft's safety or potentially bad business dealings, It is the very reason why we gather here.

[willisbr]

If you read the link that I posted explaining some moderation rules, your answer is quite clear. There is way more to this story that unfortunately cannot be posted online.

[Dale Young]

O.k. I thought this was something else. I don't know the history and didnt see the info before it was removed.

[m.sig]

well, I may not have any experience in gyro, but I join this forum exactly for that,"INFORMATION" good or bad I thing I am mature enough to read/take in or disregard some info. I have not read this thread before it get remove. I feed on information and experience of others to help me to become a better gyro owner.

Marc

[Dale Young]

Marc,
I too, was on the outside looking in. I think this might have had more to do with a business disagreement ,than aircraft info.

[ToddP]

All the information is available. Contact Rob Dubin Via PM. He is more than happy to tell you his story. My reason for removing the link is simply that much of this appears to be based on a business disagreement. There are two sides to every story. I run this forum in my free time and have absolutely no interest in getting involved in any legal battle because I provided a conduit to information that was later found to be slanderous by a court.

I chuckle when people want to throw out that we haven't "censored" when people started talking about thrust lines etc.. Lawyers can argue almost any point, validity doesn't seem to matter. It's more difficult to argue against the laws of physics.

[Heron]

If the cat is out of the bag, we have to groom it . . .
Action and reaction, laws of communication.
thanks
Heron
Rob . . .wtf??

[RotorTom]

Of all the people posting here ... I believe I have the most unbiased perspective. I do not have a dog in this fight. I have sold my Xenon and moved on. However, I have had vast experience interacting with dealers and owners from around the world -- including Rob Dubin because I ran the Xenon Owners website. And I have had extensive dealings with Celier Aviation as a Xenon owner.

It is obvious that a business disagreement triggered Rob Dubin's attack on Raphael but some of what Dubin is saying is what I've warned people about before. I simply question "Why now?" on his expose. He has known about Raphael's dealings for some time.

Here is the straight scoop from my perspective:

Raphael is a genius. His designs are wonderful. His head for innovation is second to none.

Raphael is difficult to deal with because he will never admit mistakes. He is arrogant and proud -- not unlike many aviation designers.

Raphael does not admit mistakes and almost always blames owners for problems they experience with the Xenon. Therefore, true factory support is difficult to get.

I have personally experienced Raphael lying to me when I needed help. Trust me, I have specifics!

I have heard directly from owners and dealers from around the world who are frustrated with his lack of support after the sale.

I think Raphael is a poor businessman. I do not believe he has the aptitude to deal with demanding consumers.

HOWEVER ... my dealings with Artur indicate to me he is an honest man of his word. I believe he is trying to do the right thing and would not intentionally cheat anyone.

Celier Aviation would do best if they left Raphael to the drawing board ... and let Artur run day-to-day ops. They should also get someone to help with customer service.

One thing I have learned over the years ... nothing is ever as BAD or as GOOD as people say.

[Heron]

An over inflated ego in a world of primadonas, so what´s new?
Thanks Tom the Rotor one!
heron

[ventana7]

Tom,
Thanks for your input.
As to why now.

I have spent the last two years trying to get Celier to do just what you suggested - keep Raphael at a design desk and hire someone who understands marketing/sales and customer service. I had hoped enough of us saying the same thing might have an effect.
I have spent lots of time trying to get them to treat the dealers and customers honestly and stop the lies.

Instead the opposite has happened. Raphael cheated several European dealers and took territories they had paid for. He also stole customers from his own dealers in their own territories. In each case Raphael has personally taken over marketing in those places.

You would think after huge battles with 90% of his dealers he would listen but he does not.
He recently cheated me in a manner so egregious as to convince me there is no possibility of his changing, so I no longer represent him.

If it was just between him and me, I would have swallowed and walked quietly away as I did when he cheated me in 2007.

But recently he leased a building in the US and set up his company here. He announced he was looking for new US dealers. He also announced he will be selling kits of the KISS gyroplane at Sun n Fun. We have not even seen a picture of the KISS yet so I think you and I know how ready it is and how much support the builders will get from the factory.

Having been lied to and cheated and seen 8 of the 11 world wide dealers I personally have contact with quit after losing money I really do not want to see Raphael sucker any new people into becoming US dealers or US kit builders.

In a few days time my website will have stories from myself and half a dozen other dealers.

Rob

[Buck]

This place is like a school yard.

[Resasi]

Buck, a school yard is simply a microcosm of the real world, get used to it.

I have gathered so far on this Forum, all of which I think is of value to me as a potential buyer (my opinion only, many others will differ and are welcome to their own opinions). There are no big beefs with the machine.

There have been some teething problems. Owners have found glitches which have been worked on sometimes between themselves. The owners group in the US seeming to have found and worked on some problems independently to the factory. Closer co-operation would have been of benefit to both , but communications between the two groups possibly not that great.

The machine has been a success, has done well commercially in various places in the world. I on inquiring found not a lot of effort going into getting section T in the UK, I understood why. Small market for big money outlay. Sound commercial decision.

Raphael seems to be a good designer, has a great product, Prima Donna. Often happens. He is a successful man, possibly slightly difficult man to deal with.

It is a small world. If anyone screws enough people, word does get around. Ultimately it tends to come around and bite that person on the ass. Simply the way things work.

This information gathered over time from owners, operators, the designer, salespeople and agents for the company, former and otherwise, all from the Rotary Forum. It has allowed me to assess then decide how I personally wish to proceed in dealing with the company with regard to the Xenon.

Might I still possibly buy one. Yes. Might this information allow me to formulate realistic expectation from the company. Yes.

Thank you Tod for giving us this invaluable place to get so much information about the sport we all share here, talk about here, and glean invaluable information about here.

[m.sig]

Todd

My remark, was just that, a remark. Nothing about this Forum. You are there to do exactly what you had to do. I won't argue with you " better you than me" Keep your outstanding action, I appreciated it very much. Keep going don't let go.

Marc

[Timchick]

Is Buck a potential Xenon dealer?

[Greg Mitchell]

I reckon, Tim.

I've met Rob Dubin in the US over Mentone gathering and again here in Oz when Rob and Dee came to visit.

I've not seen what was deleted but I know Rob to be honest and upstanding. I personally know another Xenon dealer who has travelled the same road as many of the other Xenon Dealers........I have formed a vastly different idea about what sort of person Rc is when being compared to the likes of Rob.

Larry Neal is fantastic to deal with honest as the day is long and a gentleman to boot, wish I was more like Rob and Larry.

Personally I think the autocad pics of the KISS craft if manufactured as is will prove to be Ceilers downfall. I was surprised to hear how high the thrustline was on the Xenons. Cant wait and see what happens if these little kiss paper creations take to the air.

Go get em Rob, priors and history supports you.

Mitch

PS. I dont believe Raphael is a genius. Never did think the Xenons were all that and more anyway, doors falling off, in flight etc and it always looked like a HTL gyro to me but what do I know, look at the M24, now I heard 8" 10" 12" any more bids folks....I'm going with 17" maybe closer to 18" looking forward to those hang and balance test results.

[twistair]

I dont believe Raphael is a genius.

I recall first time I've heard about Xenon and RC he stated that more than 5000 airplanes of his designs were built. I think this statement can be still found at his website(s). I tried to find any mention of his designs in the Net - to find at least one. None were found nor any mention of him as an aircraft or at least homebuilt designer.

I've seen Xenon only once while visiting Meidl airfield in Hungary but looked at it for 3 days between flying Calidus and MTOsport. What I saw in Xenon design and workmanship made me sure that I do not wish to fly it. I didn't.

[Semler]

I reckon the pod of the Xenon makes it a nice looking machine, i would own one if i had the chance but, one thing that really concerns me is how the mast is "designed" to break in the middle if the rotors contact the ground (high speed flapped), Probably an area to keep an eye on as the hours get up.

Just my opinion

[Heron]

We best not confuse men dealings with machine performance.
Xenon looks good and it is a platform to a better ship, wether the owner or Cellier does not matter who, the mods can and need to be made.
Rob used our Forum to vent his problems, but I am sure the coin has the other three sides . . .
WE hear, analyse, judge and respond to our peers here, some even like to gag these kind of situations, keeping our forum pretty but, I think, steril . . .
Can´t get another black eye for gyros, they have both messed up!
Mitch
You are a good man, nobody can expect more than what you give. But then again I am a friend and a fan . . .totally biased! ;)
Time shows faded collors . . .at least . . .
Rob
What is going on man? There are rumors you know?
Are the fences down? Can they be mended?
I hope the noise wakes Raphael up, that ship needs to be in the market.
Heron

[Buck]

Is Buck a potential Xenon dealer?

Maybe if hell freezes over.

[RotorTom]

I have been a staunch critic of some of Celier's business practices ... but to "throw stones" at the Xenon design is ridiculous. I just love when so-called gyro pilots give their opinions on it when they have never even set foot in the cockpit.

HTL and CTL are important ... but it is the overall design that determines stability. The Xenon is rock solid. That is not an opinion ... that is from 100 hours experience flying them.

You can push, pull, advance throttle and pull throttle in dozens of configurations and the platform just returns to normal. It is smooth, fast, stable and forgiving.

The mods we US owners made were minor in comparison to the overall design.

[Buck]

Buck, a school yard is simply a microcosm of the real world, get used to it.

I have gathered so far on this Forum, all of which I think is of value to me as a potential buyer (my opinion only, many others will differ and are welcome to their own opinions). There are no big beefs with the machine.

There have been some teething problems. Owners have found glitches which have been worked on sometimes between themselves. The owners group in the US seeming to have found and worked on some problems independently to the factory. Closer co-operation would have been of benefit to both , but communications between the two groups possibly not that great.

The machine has been a success, has done well commercially in various places in the world. I on inquiring found not a lot of effort going into getting section T in the UK, I understood why. Small market for big money outlay. Sound commercial decision.

Raphael seems to be a good designer, has a great product, Prima Donna. Often happens. He is a successful man, possibly slightly difficult man to deal with.

It is a small world. If anyone screws enough people, word does get around. Ultimately it tends to come around and bite that person on the ass. Simply the way things work.

This information gathered over time from owners, operators, the designer, salespeople and agents for the company, former and otherwise, all from the Rotary Forum. It has allowed me to assess then decide how I personally wish to proceed in dealing with the company with regard to the Xenon.

Might I still possibly buy one. Yes. Might this information allow me to formulate realistic expectation from the company. Yes.

Thank you Tod for giving us this invaluable place to get so much information about the sport we all share here, talk about here, and glean invaluable information about here.

It can give you some initial insight, but before spending that kind of cash anyone with half a brain will inspect the finished product thoroughly and ask a myriad of questions, if those questions are not answered to the buyers satisfaction of if there are any concerns from the inspection of the aircraft then the buyer should walk away. While forums are a good source of initial information they can become a sounding board for faceless individuals to boldly claim all sorts of things while ignoring their own faults, I have no issue with people saying "x" about "y", but I think they should hold their hands up if they have been less that straight in their own business dealings with others otherwise they dress themselves up as the slighted innocents, there certainly seems to be inference that the OP has not got clean hands.

[Vance]

It can give you some initial insight, but before spending that kind of cash anyone with half a brain will inspect the finished product thoroughly and ask a myriad of questions, if those questions are not answered to the buyers satisfaction of if there are any concerns from the inspection of the aircraft then the buyer should walk away. While forums are a good source of initial information they can become a sounding board for faceless individuals to boldly claim all sorts of things while ignoring their own faults, I have no issue with people saying "x" about "y", but I think they should hold their hands up if they have been less that straight in their own business dealings with others otherwise they dress themselves up as the slighted innocents, there certainly seems to be inference that the OP has not got clean hands.


Hello Buck,

I was a Harley Davidson motorcycle dealer for 17 years.

I felt that it was my responsibility to help my customers enjoy their purchase and the ownership experience.

At the risk of sounding arrogant I felt that they did not know what they wanted at the beginning of their relationship with Harley Davidson motorcycles and it was my job to help guide them in their choices and enhance their riding experience.

Some dealers don’t take this approach and in my experience most are less profitable for it.

If I was in the market for a store bought gyroplane I would look very carefully at the manufacturer, dealers and support.

I feel if the dealers are not making a profit they do not have the resources to support the customers after purchase experience.

If the support isn’t there it does not mean I will not have fun, I feel that I will have more fun with the dealers help.

When something doesn’t work out it is nice to feel I have someone looking out for me.

The forum is a small close nit community and it doesn’t take long to recognize the people who protest about challenges of their own creation.

I like to imagine that my friends here on the forum are sophisticated enough to know there are two sides to every disagreement.


Thank you, Vance

[Buck]

Hello Buck,

I was a Harley Davidson motorcycle dealer for 17 years.

I felt that it was my responsibility to help my customers enjoy their purchase and the ownership experience.

At the risk of sounding arrogant I felt that they did not know what they wanted at the beginning of their relationship with Harley Davidson motorcycles and it was my job to help guide them in their choices and enhance their riding experience.

Some dealers don’t take this approach and in my experience most are less profitable for it.

If I was in the market for a store bought gyroplane I would look very carefully at the manufacturer, dealers and support.

I feel if the dealers are not making a profit they do not have the resources to support the customers after purchase experience.

If the support isn’t there it does not mean I will not have fun, I feel that I will have more fun with the dealers help.

When something doesn’t work out it is nice to feel I have someone looking out for me.

The forum is a small close nit community and it doesn’t take long to recognize the people who protest about challenges of their own creation.

I like to imagine that my friends here on the forum are sophisticated enough to know there are two sides to every disagreement.


Thank you, Vance

I agree that dealer support is also important, I note another comment elsewhere here of a turbo issue turning into a drama which obviously is not good at all, if I have a problem I want the confidence in the dealer to ensure it is resolved quickly and with minimum down time, after all you buy these beasts to fly, not to look at.

By the way you may have been more credible if you had said Triumph! (joke):whip:

[GyroCFI]

Long story short, They took me for several hundred dollars before shutting their doors.

If the info is slanderous, That's one thing. But, if it is pertanent information reguarding the aircraft's safety or potentially bad business dealings, It is the very reason why we gather here.


I had one of my students ripped off for over 3500 dollars by Bill Parson's daughter Cindy when they were running things. She took his money for a 65 HP Arrow engine and then gave him the runaround for 2 months before shutting down.

[Vance]

Hello Buck,

I don’t know your level of experience so I want to make sure I have not created a misimpression.

Gyroplane numbers are so small in the United States of America that in my opinion a dealer network has not really worked out for any gyroplane manufacturer. Generally there is a US representative for the foreign aircraft that the purchaser would deal with or directly with a factory in the USA.

I was a Triumph enthusiast but in my opinion they were not a viable business opportunity when I bought Harley Davidson of Santa Maria April fool’s day of 1987.

I loved being a Harley Davidson dealer and it was profitable.

The Motor Company suffers from many of the same faults as Xenon is accused of.

The dealer was often a buffer between the Motor Company and the customer.

Thank you, Vance

[Buck]

Hello Buck,

I don’t know your level of experience so I want to make sure I have not created a misimpression.

Gyroplane numbers are so small in the United States of America that in my opinion a dealer network has not really worked out for any gyroplane manufacturer. Generally there is a US representative for the foreign aircraft that the purchaser would deal with or directly with a factory in the USA.

I was a Triumph enthusiast but in my opinion they were not a viable business opportunity when I bought Harley Davidson of Santa Maria April fool’s day of 1987.

I loved being a Harley Davidson dealer and it was profitable.

The Motor Company suffers from many of the same faults as Xenon is accused of.

The dealer was often a buffer between the Motor Company and the customer.

Thank you, Vance

The gyro market is tiny everywhere but I still think it is reasonable to expect in country spares availability if you are shelling out $70k.

[PW_Plack]

This problem may sort itself out in the marketplace if the FAA goes forward with the E-LSA gyroplane experiment. It will come with all the reporting and continuing airworthiness requirements faced by S-LSA in fixed-wing. A manufacturer which denies problems until an owners group publicly outs him won't thrive in this world.

This process will be interesting to watch. It is my belief that both Celier and Autogyro (MT) have delivered machines to customers which would have triggered violations had they been delivered in the US as E-LSA. You can't self-certify your machine as ASTM-compliant, then ship it with rusting bolts or doors that come off, or suddenly substitute an alternate rotorhead design which allows the rotor to hit the tail in place of the head that was approved.

Everyone wants to charge Magni money, but they'll disappear from the market if they don't walk the walk once they're registered as E-LSA.

[ms80831]

OK

I did not wade in until now, as I have no first hand knowledge of the original issue between Raphael and Rob.

Here is what I do know...

I have over 150 hour in the Xenon, flying over the Everglades, the Florida Keys, and the Rocky Mountains at over 10K feet.

There is no machine I know of that will perform like the Xenon with the RST...None.

Would I buy one again, YES.

Is it perfect?

No, it's an aircraft !

M

[Doug Riley]

Buck, if you're coming in from the world of certified aircraft, be prepared for culture shock here in homebuilt-land.

Eccentric designers with mild-to-moderate sociopathy are normal (Igor Bensen had most of the unpleasant quirks and practices attributed here to M. Celier).

Also normal are drastically under-capitalized manufacturers and dealers. Often, these outfits attempt to capitalize themselves using customer receipts, which doesn't work. When it doesn't work, the next gambit is to take "deposits" on machines not yet even prototyped (a.k.a. vaporware) and use THOSE as capital. Often, such "deposits" disappear with the demise of the under-capitalized company.

Designers who lack even basic technical knowledge have been commented upon in other threads. Sometimes the most technically correct machines are not all that pretty, while the sleek ones are widowmakers. Sometimes.

Despite all this, gyro flying sure is fun. You just have to watch your back like you were walking through a bad neighborhood at 2:00 a.m.

[Buck]

Despite all this, gyro flying sure is fun. You just have to watch your back like you were walking through a bad neighborhood at 2:00 a.m.

Any manufacturer dealing with me has the same problem, I don't care where they are in the world, I'll turn up on their doorstep one day if messed around enough and have done in the past, it is in my nature. I'm a big ugly :censored: as well.

[Buck]

OK

I did not wade in until now, as I have no first hand knowledge of the original issue between Raphael and Rob.

Here is what I do know...

I have over 150 hour in the Xenon, flying over the Everglades, the Florida Keys, and the Rocky Mountains at over 10K feet.

There is no machine I know of that will perform like the Xenon with the RST...None.

Would I buy one again, YES.

Is it perfect?

No, it's an aircraft !

M

It looks to be a great aircraft, as does the Magni and the Calidus, the Magni seems to be the only one that can be registered at the moment although I may be wrong on that as well.

[ventana7]

Since I started this post I will step in to make a few things clear.

I think Raphael is a very good designer and the Xenon a good machine- I completely agree with Tom and Mark's assesments of its performance and handling. I have flown over 100 hours in two Xenons and found no bad habits in the machine.

The Xenon had as many or more teething pains as any aircraft is likely to have- most are solved now.

The teething process was made much more painful and prolonged and more expensive by Raphael's denying problems and blaming the customer, then making the customer pay for the eventual correction.

While the Xenon flys well I think most owners have found warranty and follow up service to be FAR FAR less than they expected. However putting all that aside.

My issue is quite specifically this:

Raphael has announced on this forum he is looking for new US dealers and looking for customers to build his new KISS aircraft kits.

My warning was quite specific
I suggest no one invest in a Xenon dealership.

I suggest no one buy a KISS kit until the bugs are out of both the aircraft and the kit builiding process and you hear from others that builder support and warranty service is good.

I have VERY good reasons for making the above warnings and more than ample experience dealing with Celier Aviation to know this is good advice for others.


This is not about some vendetta or getting something solved between Raphael and myself --the forum will have no bearing on either of those issues.

It is ALL about preventing someone new from losing lots of money, because too many of us were keeping quiet.

Rob

[Resasi]

Customers buying top of the range equipment in whatever field expect good support and after sales service. That is part of the package, and it is good to know if this is not the case. It certainly has a bearing on the decision to buy or not to buy.

People and companies that do not honor agreements made, would seem more likely to be poor at attending to discrepancies on products sold.

[ventana7]

Rob, just my personal opinion, but if you have more details from former dealers you should have waited till you were ready to post their stories. Anything you attribute to them is hearsay so far. .

Paul,

Your point is well taken. As is Herons comment about 3 sides to every story.

The Xenon website has now been updated to included stories from 3 German Dealers, the New Zealand Dealer and the Irish Dealer.

I think you will find it pretty compelling reading.

Rob

[All_In]

Hummmm, may of seen this show before many times and it wasn't always intentional, more like what you know is what you get.

I was trained as a bookkeeper from the time I was 13. During that time and later as a CPA I was able to observe every kind of business and the best way of running each department.

I soon learned that if the owner(s)/management came from engineering department then that was the only department of the business that was operating efficiently. The marketing was non-existent, sales, accounting, customer service, and all the rest needed my help badly.

If their background and training was in sales or customer service then that is where the company excelled, and I’ve never seen any company where all departments were running at optimum performance.

The point is, if they have no experience they either have to hire someone who does have experience or learn by trial and error from complaints like this and will either change the department’s practices or go out of business.

The other major problems dealerships MAY HAVE with any product that has such a limited market is:
In my opinion the Xenon is the best cabin class gyroplane on the market.
But how many pilots are you going to sell a $100K cabin class aircraft too when I can buy an excellent used certified fixed-wing aircraft that flies 150 to 200kts from airport to airport, and one or two NEW gyroplane for $100K!

Its been my experience that when you have such a small market and potential for growth that often, the best marketing plan is to sell the dream of being a dealership and you sell inventory to them as part of becoming a dealer.
When they run out of sales and money this always happens.

I have no knowledge if that is what is happening here, I’m only saying that as you sell every customer who really wants your product the only way to keep any kind of volume up is to sell dealerships to anyone they can.
At least that is what most marketing folks will tell them to do rather than go bankrupt.

The solution is always cutting back on fixed cost and R&D, sell what you got through the dealers you already have and live within realistic new customer sales.

[Heron]

No compare: gyros and other . . .keep it real. Price does not matter, it just dictate number of owners.
My plug and play cheap gyro is still in my dreams, but possible.
All others are suffering of designer´s grandiloquence, some raise the price just because another ship came to be, in a higher bracket.
Still: 4 g´s airframe, 4 g´s powerplant, 3 g´s rotor/prop and some brick-a-bracks . . .mind you that this is the basic gyro, glass panel is another game.
I rather die poor, called dreamer, lunatic, Spawn of Satan, than someone call me dishonest . . .that will make my blood boil and I will hear sirens . . . or as Vance used to say, will break out in felonies . . .
All gyros that came in to the market since I joined the camp, had some kind of problem and faded away . . .the equation remains the same: RTF, Instrutor available, maintenance available and financing available . . .voilá, we will have a market.
Ego trips are good to look at, not to base your business on it.
thanks
Heron

[All_In]

My advice to anyone wishing to become a Xenon dealer is to not take forum post as gospel and to PM Xenon customers here and call the SUCCESSFUL dealerships.

I say successful because of the other half of the dealership equation.

When we were a piper dealer, many dealerships went out of business and there was certainly nothing wrong with their aircraft or customer service, but they almost always blamed Piper. Funny we never had any problems!

Aircraft dealerships receive large amounts of money as deposits.
Many of the folks that went out of business spent part or all of their customer’s deposits and actually cheated them.
Customers sued but the corporation was broke not by any fault of the manufacture.

Which is why I advise to talk to as many customers as you can discover and the SUCCESSFUL DEALERSHIPS if they are not having the same problem then the problem is elsewhere!

[ventana7]

John,

I have usually found your business advice on the forum to be spot on- and your last two posts are very sound.

Just to clarify a point on "successful" dealerships.
Your implication is that those of us complaining about Raphael's lies were unsuccessful in our dealerships - not true.

Most of the half a dozen dealers who descirbe their personal nightmares in dealing wtih Raphael HAVE successful dealerships. That is they are still in business but they represent other gyros now -- NOT Celier.
If you read what they wrote in thier own words on my Xenon website it is about problems specific to Raphael.

I actively sold Xenons in the US only 5 months from April-August of 2007.

Though the factory had promised they could deliver me 20 machines in that time it soon became ovbious that was impossible, so I stopped taking orders in August 07 and even at that the last 5 machines arrived in the US ony 5 days before the ELSA cutoff date in Jan of 2008.

In those 5 months I sold 10 gyros. I took deposits on 2 more but as the factory could not deliver in time I returned the deposits. I then turned my attention to So. America where I sold 2 more in a month. The next month Raphael and I parted ways.

The total was 12 very expensive gyros in about 6-7 months. I have not been in the gyro world that long so I do not know much history but I think that would be considered a success in the gyro world. During that time period I accounted for close to 50% of Celier's total world wide sales.

In those days there were an unknown new company so it was a harder sale.

Even today they only claim to be making 3-4 per month for the entire world, so me selling 2 per month would be considered successful.

Norber Braun the German dealer did much better than me. After he finally got German certification I think he sold 27 machines in about 2 years. I am pretty certain he was the largest and most successful dealer by a good measure since Celier reports 130 total so far.

The dealrs who reported their horror stories of dealing with Raphael on the website are just the ones I have had previous contact with. There are other former dealers whose names are no longer on his website so I do not know who they are or how many total dealers and ex dealers there are.

But by all means anyone still foolish enough to be considering a dealership should call others who are still involved with Celier.
I know the Australian dealer Mark Bredden - aka Bones is here on the forum, you could PM him.

Rob

PS One question- as a business advisor would YOU advise one of your clients to become the next dealer?

[All_In]

Rob I'm sorry if it came across as implying you or any of the other dealers here have done anything wrong! I have no direct knowledge and that was not my intent.

I posted the manufacture's problems I had observed and did not mean to imply that Cellier was doing any of those practices either just watch for them.

I did not like leaving it without a solution for folks who may want a Xeon dealership if only to charge off their flying expenses.

So I shared my life observations and experiences as a Piper dealer and was not implying that is what is happening here. I have no idea.

My intent was to share a solution as to how to do research on selecting a manufacture to represent upon hearing these types of complaints and wanted to try and be just as impartial as if I didn’t know you from the forum.
They need to read this post and also talk to every dealer who has been burned and compare the practices with those who are selling starting with the guy with the most volume and see if the stories match.
Only then can you be relatively assured you will be treated the same as those that may not have any complaints or you will discover the company sucks!

I'm glad you posted Rob. It warns folks that they need to do much more research before signing any dealership agreement.


PS One question- as a business advisor would YOU advise one of your clients to become the next dealer?
Rob from what you have posted heck no!

The problem I have is I had a Piper Dealer tell me how screwed up Piper was and why it drove him out of business.

He didn't know I was a Piper dealer and I could not recognize the company he was talking about.
They never treated us like that.
Later I learned he had cheated folks took deposits and never sent the money in or ordered the aircraft, he ended up being the crook yet he was their loudest critic.

I believe you but, I have no proof. So that is one = they suck! However, I would not be doing due diligents to my client if I only talked to one dealer.

[Resasi]

Possibly Rob putting forward his case here on the forum, and on this other website...along with the experiences of other dealers, in an effort to show that in this instance it is not just a him v RC but others have had the same problems.

A lot of dealers with the same problems could be an indication.

[GyroRon]

I ha

ve been a staunch critic of some of Celier's business practices ... but to "throw stones" at the Xenon design is ridiculous. I just love when so-called gyro pilots give their opinions on it when they have never even set foot in the cockpit.HTL and CTL are important ... but it is the overall design that determines stability. The Xenon is rock solid. That is not an opinion ... that is from 100 hours experience flying them.

You can push, pull, advance throttle and pull throttle in dozens of configurations and the platform just returns to normal. It is smooth, fast, stable and forgiving.

The mods we US owners made were minor in comparison to the overall design.

RotorTom, what you just said sounds word for word, just like what all the original RAF owners would say over the years. Yet we all knew RAF's were HTL and dangerous.

I personally like the Xenon design. but Never got the pleasure of flying in one

[Heron]

It is very hard for a gyro owner/pilot to gather enough expertise and fame through gyro usage and then turn that in favor of our machine, exposure in a good way, I meant.
Rob is one of them, so the bad dealings will put a dent in his reputation and therefore to the whole community.
Many others did espetacular things in gyro and helped creating a better image.
This Forum is the best place to see, experiment, understand, gyros and its people.
If we let this slide without sorting, it will hurt all of us, maybe some other party is rubbing hands expecting some quick profit from Xenon´s demise but in the long run it is another black eye.
That is why ALL matters involving Rob Dubin need to pass the drainer.
Heron

[RotorTom]

RotorTom, what you just said sounds word for word, just like what all the original RAF owners would say over the years. Yet we all knew RAF's were HTL and dangerous.

I personally like the Xenon design. but Never got the pleasure of flying in one

Ron,

I don't think I am echoing exactly what RAF owners said ... here's what I mean:

RAF owners defended HTL while also saying they do not need an HS.

I am simply saying that HTL, in itself, does not mean instability ... IF the other stability factors are there.

In the case of the Xenon there is an excellent HS, flying fuselage, prop and winglets that also must be taken into effect.

BTW ... I do not profess to being an expert nor a pilot near your capabilities. My comments are strictly derived from personal experience in the Xenon. I don't think you can fake stability.

-Tom

[All_In]

David gave me a ride in his.

I was very impressed. He took the throttle and jammed it full forward and off again and again. She just stayed there like a fixed wing. Stable as a rock.

[All_In]

Dang!! I wish I had not responded to this thread!!!

Rob this really pains me. But folks need to hear both sides of the story I'm being told from your customers and a salesman that sold two of your Xenon's for you.

I tried to get them to post it but they say you sue anyone and they don't want the expense.

THIS IS ALL HEARSAY folks so take it with a gain of salt the same as I was advising regarding Rob's post.


I been contacted by 3 different people I trust here all with the same story.

Rob according to them you cheated one of our members out of 30K+. He even has the judgment but you bankrupted the LLC and he never received a cent.
Another customer claims you did not provide after customer support and he had to go directly to Raphael who took care of him immediately.
Then I heard you haven't paid a salesmen that sold 2 rides for you.

Then I did a search on Google of your name as instructed and found the 3rd post on the list = “Rob Dubin watch out for this scammer.
And this is in another area of life boating.

Here:
http://www.boatkb.com/Uwe/Forum.aspx/cruising/255/Rob-Dubin-watch-out-for-this-scammer

Rob it is not looking good.

You got some explaining to do, but now that it is out in the open please do not PM me but post here for all to see.

As I know little more than what has been posted here, and use to trust Rob as much as I trust the others involved.

[Heron]

Well . . .this is more important than Cellier´s dealings, Rob is closer to us.
I hope it all can be explained.
Heron

[All_In]

@Heron
Actually I was shocked and it was hard to believe!

But when you learn the names of the other parties these are very respected members with long track records of helping others without any issues reported about them for over 20 years.

[Heron]

I have spoken (text) to them, just did not want to add to the fire, but now the story is taking another turn.
I wish we can sort this out and all players can come to terms, bringing things to a more civilized platform.
thanks
Heron

[Buck]

Someone seems to have gone quiet.

[RotorTom]

That's what happens in a pissing match. Piss gets all over everyone!

[PTKay]

When you read the Rob story carefully, you should be amazed.

First he earns his buck on 10 Xenons, then there is a failure
(also on his side) to continue selling due to expired ELSA rule,
Rob starts accusing Raphael of all possible wrongdoings on which
Raphael terminates the contract.

In spite of all this wrongdoings claimed by Rob, he again makes a contract
with Raphael, this time for government sales.

If Raphael was such a crook, what made Rob deal with him again at all?

I just don't get it.

And now Rob claims, he spent a fortune and lots of time on this government
contracts, which Raphael has "stolen" from him.

I have jus a simple question:
what kind of extensive effort Rob made in this government sales
when he was all the time sailing the world oceans and was having great time.
(Check it he, he admits it himself. http://www.ventanasvoyage.com/)

No wonder, that the effect of his "efforts" was a complete fiasco.
All the important contracts went to the competitor.

Raphael trusted him again and Rob instead of doing anything
(not even speaking of a due diligence), kept enjoying
himself on his yacht with the money earned on Xenon,
and sending an e-mail from time to time here and there...

Just my point of view.

[ventana7]

John,

There is of course a kernel of truth in the allegations.

Someone ordered a gyro paid half, took deliery flew it a bunch then decided he did not want a gyro. It cost me a lot of time and money. He refused a settlement and sued me. The court order prohibits us from talking about it, but obviously he
is talking about it. I did nothing to be ashamed of and tried to treat him fairly.

I would welcome disclosing the entire episode. If he sends me a signed statement saying we can disclose the details I would most welcome the chance to do so. I suspect he will not do that as for him it is better to hide in the shaddows and tell you only one side of the story.

The second story is also true, but of course has another side.

The last gyro I sold was the factory demo. At the time I sold it I disclosed all the problems I knew of which were a faulty radio, a broken louver on a cabin heater vent, and possibly a bent gear leg- we eventually determined the gear legs were fine. I replaced the radio from Australia and sent a new one to the owner. I ordered the gear leg and vent from the factory.

Before those items arrived Raphael terminated my dealership. Raphael never sent the heater vent I had paid for so I sent the owner a check to cover the cost of a new one. Sometime later the owner discovered wear in the rotorhead and cracks in two mast supports, then Chuck Roberg broke his pre-rotator and shortly after that he found out the doors were blowing off in flight and he had to buy new doors. Coupled with that was the midwest winter and difficulty in finding an instructor.

His gyro was costing him a fortune and he had barely flown it.

Most of the problems had nothing to do with me, but it is true I could provide him no assistance as Raphael would not even speak with me let alone listen to me tell him he needed to pay for warranty claims.

It was only months later Tom Martino informed me about the mast supports and at that time I sent the owner a small check towards replacing those-- though it should have been done under warranty.

As to your last allegation- we never "sold" rides and I do not know really know what you are talking about but I can guess.

It likely involves the same person who co-incidentally is involved in BOTH the other two stories.

Rob

[All_In]

Ok Rob, there is always two sides to every story. We will let the folks decide.

One clarification, the customer was sharing his plight prior to signing the non-discloser agreement and only talked about it during the pre-law suite phase and during the trial, right up to the judgment but hasn’t said a word after he signed the non-discloser agreement and is why he will not be able to post his side here.

PS:
I would have taken the money out of my personal pocket and paid him at least the deposit back less the rental hours flown. I would never leave a customer losing his entire deposit of $30,000 + dollars. Now he doesn't have any money to buy a new ride and you kept the profit! It it not right in my opinion and you should take care of him today because it is the right thing to do. But that's just me.

[Heron]

Too much money for experimenting, that is what it is!
Expectations, enthusiasm, adrenaline are good when all is good.
They turn in to frustration, depression, ill feelings . . .
Please get it straight (as much as possible) and move on, we need a replacement.
thanks
Heron

[ventana7]

As I noted in my website I was assuming I would get flamed so nothing here is surprising me. It would have been easy for me to keep quiet here - I did this to prevent others from losing money.


First off- note that there are quite a few dealers on the website who have things to say about dealing with Raphael.

PT Kay
I have been retired and sailing on a boat for 16 years- it happens to be a fairly low cost lifestyle but in any event I have done it long long before I heard of Xenon, so I can assure you Xenon did not pay for that.

When Raphael terminated my dealership I continued to maintain my website promotiong Xenon. In the US Mike Bantum stepped in and took care of the customers and I stepped aside so they could get the support they needed through Mike. I also said
nothing when my reputation was getting trashed as the best thing for the customers was for me to fade into the background.


From January 2008 until last week I kept up my website supporting Xenon. I did this at my own time and expense. I answered EVERY email received to the website continuing to tell people how well the Xenon flew. I answered maybe 500 or more emails asking about ELSA Xenons, when we would get FAA approval etc. I answered emails from prospective dealers and owners all over the world- I funneled these leads to the Australian, South African, New Zealand dealers, or direct to the factory.

At somepoint in 2008 Raphael and I mended fences because I was still sending him leads, potential sales around the world, etc. I spent hours talking with Raphael or sending him business info on the US, working with the FAA, how the 51% laws worked, how to meet the ASTM standards, etc. I liked flying the XEnon and hoped with time and advice Raphael would start to run a proper business.

During this time I also got increased interest from the US government whom I had first talked to when I had been a dealer.

In 2010 the Govt. sent a Request for Proposal to me. Rapahel and I then signed a new contract for me to pursue this and other governent agency customers.

I submitted a proposal to the government that was about 14 or 15 pages long, traded dozens of emails, etc. I had just paid my attorney $ 1,200 to draw up the lease for the government deal.


As to the web tidbit that was dug up- it is actually from once before when I did something like this. I exposed a crooked manufacturer in the sailing industry.

My goal once again is to keep anyone from losing money by becoming a Xenon dealer- so it is not really about me. It is about all the dealers whose stories are on the website.

Rob

[ventana7]

John,

The conclusion you offer on what you would do does not apply- it is based upon your incorrect understanding of the facts- NOT your fault at all since you are making guesses.

I do NOT want your guess to imply the factory kept the money- they had absolutely nothing to do with this deal.
Get the other guy to agree to disclosing it and I WELCOME the opportunity to put it all on the table.

Rob

[All_In]

John,

The conclusion you offer on what you would do does not apply- it is based upon your incorrect understanding of the facts- NOT your fault at all since you are making guesses.

I do NOT want your guess to imply the factory kept the money- they had absolutely nothing to do with this deal.
Get the other guy to agree to disclosing it and I WELCOME the opportunity to put it all on the table.

Rob

OK can you tell me did he get any of his deposit back so he could buy another ride?

[Heron]

Deposit back and how many hours flown?
Sounds like a discount is needed here, but as Rob says it is a guessing game so far.
Heron

[Chuck Roberg]

then Chuck Roberg broke his pre-rotator

What do you mean I broke it. Weren't you the person who delivered it to him. All I know is the first time we tried the pre-rotor it it would not mechanically engage.

[bones]

OK can you tell me did he get any of his deposit back so he could buy another ride?

I really dont care either way really, but i can tell you right now, if some one gives me a deposit, right above where they sign its got in clear ENGLISH this is non refundable, the deposits i take are 50k mark, so you better be sure you want it before signing, all because i had one guy pull out after the machine been started, it caused me a head f*ck.

[Passin' Thru]

I really dont care either way really, but i can tell you right now, if some one gives me a deposit, right above where they sign its got in clear ENGLISH this is non refundable, the deposits i take are 50k mark, so you better be sure you want it before signing, all because i had one guy pull out after the machine been started, it caused me a head f*ck.

Bones, that is exactly what I do with my custom machine and tool Design-and-Build customers. I get 50% deposit up front before I buy materials or finalize any designs. That is non-refundable and understood before the work order is signed.

Here's a nasty one; Some of my "irregular" customers I only quote "Estimated price based on previous simular projects". I charge them a considerable fee before making a firm quatation! If the customer accepts the firm quotation, then the fee is then applied toward the deposit.

That's tough business, but I have learned the hard wqy that some folks will change their mind and leave you on the $hort end of the $tick! :sad:

[BEN S]

for some Gov't contractors who needed some very hard to find ammo for a test. They needed a lot of it in 3 days! With the whole country snowed in I had to drive to the hub point to pick it up just to get it there in time.
I quoted them a large price and told the girl "that's all up front"
When she questioned my request I simply told her as I used to work out there I know you must have made plans for this trip at LEAST 6 months ago probably a year and that if they changed their minds at the last second there was no sending the ammo back! Pay all of it up front and you'll have it in time!"
The grumbled about it being "for the Gov't" and somehow that meant I should trust them more???
You do business however it needs to get done. If John is the type to refund a deposit he will be paid back 100 fold in customer referrals, he is my friend and I know his personality. I am not near as nice as him, in my book a deposit is never refundable. I do make other arrangements for extenuating circumstances though.
Ben S

[All_In]

The problem is I keep learning so much more of the back story from all the parties involved, too much!!
I haven't posted it here because I do not like to be put in this position, and I'm not comfortable repeating HEAR-SAY!

It is not the same case, all of you guys would all have delivered undamaged goods, right?

If a customer of mine paid $30,000+ (1/2 down) of my money for a Xenon. Took delivery and then discovered that this new Xenon was damaged in an off airport engine out and several other items that needed repair I would try first to get him a new undamaged Xenon as I had promised.

Failing that when I then resold it for $5,000.00 more I would have returned the 30K+ less the hourly rental rate as it did not cost me a cent and it wasn't what I promised! Looking at the logbooks logged time. All except .5 was either with Rob or giving introductory flights for his prospective customers so it would not have been that much.

And I cannot repeat what Raphael said about Rob, however it does support the other folks emailing me with their portion of the story.

I really wish I hadn't responded at all, maybe we could just let it drop now?

PS:
For normal undamaged, by me, returns not special orders, I must not be that nice as I believe in a re-stocking charge to pay for your labor. You will go out of business if you only take deposits and make refunds!

[Heron]

Hearsay? Define it, please?
When you hear, you are a witness, not a third party relay . . .
And yes . . .we need to know who we are, this is a community, also we are not apples, we are people, we can be fixed (well . . .some) :D
Business with money up front are very rare in Brazil, ITOH, non payment is a norm and lots of business fold because of that. Skip payment became a national hobby.
I think our intention here is to approach the parties and have them work out the problems.
Heron

[All_In]

I just received about a page and 1/2 from Rob regarding his side of the story, Haven't finished reading it as I just woke up and the brain is not up to 100%. I do not drink coffee as I have way too much energy and would be bouncing off the walls.

Out of complete fairness to all, I would be glad to email it to anyone just send me a PM with your email address.

[Doug Riley]

I hope that no one involved in this sorry episode is violating a confidentiality order from the court. You can't work around such an order by telling the tale privately to third parties, and letting the third parties tell the world.

Moreover, all you third parties ought to careful not to get yourselves stuck to the tar baby.

[Heron]

I will read it with care, but I think explanations are good when accepted by the parties and I hope them guys come to terms and rekindled friendship.
Thanks
Heron (got copy from Rob)

[gyromike]

I hope that no one involved in this sorry episode is violating a confidentiality order from the court. You can't work around such an order by telling the tale privately to third parties, and letting the third parties tell the world.

Moreover, all you third parties ought to careful not to get yourselves stuck to the tar baby.

Wise words.
This thread really needs to die a peaceful death.

[All_In]

I hope that no one involved in this sorry episode is violating a confidentiality order from the court. You can't work around such an order by telling the tale privately to third parties, and letting the third parties tell the world.

Moreover, all you third parties ought to careful not to get yourselves stuck to the tar baby.

Good advice here, much of the information like the logbooks came from the new owner email and were being pasted around to other members on the forum prior to the end of the trial and they haven't signed anything.

Just as I felt folks should know about Robs problems with Raphael to protect the public after I started receiving emails from the parties that were indirectly involved, felt obligated to protect my friends with the truth.

I've never been sued having hundreds of partnerships, businesses and 100's of thousands of customers, so figured it would be a new experience and I do have several attorneys that will represent me for FREE, one is my sister.

I wish they would work it out Heron, and I wish I had never tried to help.

[dragonflyerthom]

Your just reward for being a nice guy JR.

[Heron]

We have done nothing wrong here and this thread should stay right here untill we see the deal through.
Look at yourselves! Afraid of what? Lawyers? Is this what we have become?
I hope all the lawyers involved come to fly with us and understand more who we are.
The matrix should have acted as the Father, avoiding this kind of problem and bad exposure.
Arbitration is a form of solving problems and don´t get ugly, some people should try it.
Heron

[All_In]

This is going to be my last post!
I've read both sides of the story, and they both seem reasonable as told, and if the court had not already ruled that the customer should be refunded his deposit It would be hard to say who is to blame.
However, the customer won a judgment so I feel we should use the courts opinion as to who was right and who was wrong.

As I said if it were me I would have taken a 15 year loan out on my yacht to pay the customer back even if my LLC went bankrupt. But maybe that's just me.

PS:
It is never too late to do the right thing!

[All_In]

Well my friends, no good deed go unpunished.

I may be wrong about the last post also, out of complete fairness I received this PM form Rob.

----Start---
John,

I appreciate your involvement as a bit of a moderator in this sorry tale.

Let me correct something for you though-- the court did not issue anything- nothing ever went to court, there was NO court ruling at all.

Rob
----End Rob's PM----

He does seem to be a nice guy too. I'm so confused If nothing went to court then why does Rob say in post # 72 he did, but at least I have 20 years of experience getting court documents.

My motto or sickness "Never give up, never surrender!" Getting the case number from Rob or the Customer and will let you know more as I do!

[gyroplanes]

THIS SURE IS INTERESTING READING.

I have stayed out of this until now.

Some of you might want to dismiss it as a petty quarrel. It had life altering consequences for Chuck & myself.

As a victim, I would really like to think Rob believes what he writes.
I'd rather think of him as delusional, than a scam artist.

[All_In]

Well I got the case #, but have to wait and finish the PRA magazine I'm scanning or I'll lose my place and have to start over give me 30 min's or so as I have a link and the court system is online.

PS:
You did not know that I created many of the programs you see in the court for retrieving courtroom document did you? Funny how anytime I'm in a tough spot in life I always seem to have been given the skills to make it easy.

[Heron]

This is not a joke by any measurements, good sum of money, time, friendship and trust was lost here, I wish there will be a way to compensate, but I don´t hope it will.
Two sheets or paper spent could avoid all this mess, now it is word of mouth and receipts. . . .and lawyers which means money going to the big void.
Heron
Hey! you are all here and dont dare fake a move . . .

[All_In]

Rob you do have balls to call the kettle black with all your baggage.

I hate so few things in my life! But liars and thieves; I do hate.

Liars steal the truth from you making it impossible to make rational decisions and you appear to be both!!!

OK so it wasn’t technically a “Judgment” it was a court “Ordered Agreement” but it did go to court and there was a court order of $30,000.00 dollars awarded to the customer!!!

You did bankrupt the company and you have not done the right thing by paying what you owe in life. No wonder you can go sailing all the time on what you owe others.

For anyone wishing to see the truth here is the court online link:

https://www.dupagecase.com/Clerk/allsearch.do

Enter 2008ar0611 in the search box. Click on the "Closing Money Judgment"

Here is a copy paste of the order, it won’t paste with the correct format or pictures as in the link:

Case Details

Case Number 2008AR000611 Next Court Date
File Date 03-26-2008 Next Court Location
Case Title CHARLES ROBERG -VS- ROBERT DUBIN Next Court Time
Agency Clerks Office Assigned Location
Legal Status CLOSED Balance Due Amount $75.00*
This amount may not reflect payment made recently.
Counts Count Number Count Description Count Status Complaint Number
0001 CLOSED CONTRACT $15,000.01 - $50,000

Judgment Details

Judgment Amount $30000.00 Judgment Cost Amount $0.00
Judgment Attorney Cost Amount $0.00 Judgment Clerk Cost N
---End---

End of the story Rob! We now, all know who you are and your claims against Raphael can no longer be trusted either!!!!

You can change Rob! Just tell the truth, and pay the folks back you owe money, including the cruising community, you give us a bad name.


PS:
Raphael I would send anyone who questions Rob's attack against you to this thread so they can learn just who he is!

[dragonflyerthom]

Looks like the court knocked off over 4 thousand dollars. Set up payment plan of 75.00. Nice. and now it is closed.

[All_In]

Looks like the court knocked off over 4 thousand dollars. Set up payment plan of 75.00. Nice. and now it is closed.
Hi Thom

I believe the $75.00 is only what is left by both parties of the court cost not the payment amount. Rob was suppose to pay all of it out the sales proceeds.

Something any honest businessman could have easily done after he re-sold it at least, especially seeing how Rob sold it for $5,000. dollars more.

I've had to wait to pay a customer back until I re-sold the product too but, I've always paid them back!

[gyroplanes]

As I said if it were me I would have taken a 15 year loan out on my yacht to pay the customer back even if my LLC went bankrupt. But maybe that's just me.

PS:
It is never too late to do the right thing!

John,
I doubt you would use a bad situation to defraud someone.
When I go to a gyro event I want to go to lunch with my customers, not have their finger in my face and yelling.
It's never too late to turn a corner in your life and take the "high road".
I sleep well and with a smile on my face.

[All_In]

@Tommy
There is NO WAY!!

Well maybe for a day!

Man I wrecked a rental car flying it at the last Benson days. We fixed and returned it and they never knew!

The boys and I were having such a good time getting away with it that I did not stop to think about how I would feel if I were the owner of the company.

I had to call them the next day!!!

My conscience just could not take it! They were shocked when I call and told them. They even called me back and told me they could not see any damage, was I sure?
I told them where to look, and they were very, very, grateful and I don't carry the burden of having cheated anyone in life.

Do the right thing Rob, pay Chuck and Tommy back!

[Buck]

The sailing community does not have anything good to say about the fellow either it seems judging by following the link given earlier in the thread.

[ventana7]

John,
For a guy who is a legal expert you don't seem to know much about the reality of the legal system.

First no matter who is right or wrong- it costs 50K or more to get to court.

I would have spent 40K or 50K to get to a judgement that said I can keep 20K of Chuck's money. And Chuck would have spent 50K t get back 25K except I think his attorney was on a contingency.

Fair or not that is the legal system. And on a contingency attorneys do not like to waste their time.

Most cases settle because it costs too much to go to court. Both parties get real and reasonable and make a settlement that includes a check or promisory note at the time of settlement which means you really get paid.

We offered chuck many setlement offers, where I would have written a check at the time as part of the offer. That is how nearly all cases end.

My attorney kept asking the other attorney how they would ever collect against an out of state company if they did not settle. The attorney just kept saying Chuck would not settle.

I don't make the legal system but I listened to my attorney. I don't know if Chuck got bad advice or just did not listen to the advice he got.

This is going to bring on flames so any attorneys feel free to jump in.

Rob

[All_In]

@Rob
There is nothing you can say at this point Rob that I would believe!
Your a great talker. Pay Chuck and Tommy what you owe and I'll talk to you again!

PS:
Also folks notice who has broken their word not to discuss the case? Not Tommy or Chuck!!!

[ventana7]

I guess I should add that when clients are putting money out of their pockets as I was they have an incentive to settle --so they do settle.

On a contingency basis the client has nothing to lose by insisting on no settlement - but the attorney sure does. He does not want to waste his time.

Chuck's attorney knew he was wasting his time so he walked away as fast as he could. He knew the settlement he arranged was not going to be paid and in fact he never sent one letter expecting it to be paid. He wanted out.
That is the reality of the legal system- the lawyers set it up but we all live with it.
Rob

[All_In]

The attorney made me be dishonest and cheat people. Is that like the devil made me do it?

Blame the attorney for your NATURE!

You are banned as far as I'm concerned until you do the right thing and pay Chuck and Tommy what you owe!

I hope you get what you deserve out of life.

For you to be able to justify this shows you are an evil man, good bye!

[Chuck Roberg]

We offered chuck many setlement offers, where I would have written a check at the time as part of the offer. That is how nearly all cases end.

Rob never offered a settlement thru my Atty.

My attorney kept asking the other attorney how they would ever collect against an out of state company if they did not settle. The attorney just kept saying Chuck would not settle.

Again, A settlement was never offered.


Finally Chuck's attorney suggested they would drop the personal suit against me if I would concede the one against the business. That is like Chuck's attorney throwing in the towel to get out of the case. In effect they are saying if you admit you owe us the money you won't have to pay anything and the case is over.

And more disinformation.

Your just trying to muddy up the water since John found you out.

Let me correct something for you though-- the court did not issue anything- nothing ever went to court, there was NO court ruling at all.

Rob

[ventana7]

Anyone who wants to come to their own conclusions PM me and I will send you a list of facts that led to all of this.

Other than that I am done here.

[Buck]

Shouldn't be a big thing for a lottery winner.

[GyroRon]

I have heard both sides of this story Chuck / Rob / Xenon.... I think Chuck should have gotten most of his deposit back. End of story.

[Chuck Roberg]

Anyone who wants to come to their own conclusions PM me and I will send you a list of facts that led to all of this.

Other than that I am done here.

FACTS, What facts. The ones made up by you.

Anyone interested PM me and I can give you all saved emails I got from Rob.

Kind of makes me wonder what the beef is with Raphael and Xenon. I'm sure you have more "facts" to back that up too.

[RotorTom]

When it comes to deposits, there are two factors I use to determine if a merchant rightfully withheld a deposit. And I have never lost a legal battle when I follow these guidelines:

A. Did the buyer breach the contract?

B. And if the buyer breached the contract, did the seller have actual monetary losses as a result of the breach?

If the seller "breaks even" or makes more money following the breach ... the deposit money should be returned. Period.

OR ... if the buyer breached the contract for GOOD REASON, like misrepresentation or fraud in the inducement ... it doesn't matter if the seller lost money. He should return the deposit.

I have recovered literally millions of dollars in deposits for consumers following these rules.

[PW_Plack]

I remember a time when I couldn't wait to be first in line for the next big thing. I've now reached a point in life where I'm not in such a rush. Someone once told me, "the trick with being on the cutting edge is staying on the right side of the blade." Smart guy.

[Gyro_Kai]

I remember a time when I couldn't wait to be first in line for the next big thing. I've now reached a point in life where I'm not in such a rush. Someone once told me, "the trick with being on the cutting edge is staying on the right side of the blade." Smart guy.

Good advice, Paul, otherwise "leading edge" can quickly become "bleeding edge".

Kai.

[Heron]

Tell me about everyone been wrong!
WE know the represented facts, can make a judgement and call the party of interest to tell your position.
The trial should not be here on the Forum.
It is in court already.
John R. took side, will accomplish nothing by opening fire on Rob. If Rob is dishonest, he will not care . . .if he is (and that still in judgment) any comments will only hurt him.
Anyway, the money is not where it supposed to be.
If proposals were made, they should have originated documents.
As the original contract.
I still hope they settle and if possible come back to good terms as persons.
Then we can write the end of story here . . .
Thanks
Heron (calling all parties to sense)

[RotorTom]

I love people like John who speak out when they believe there is an injustice! Bravo!

[gyroplanes]

No one has heard my side of the story.
Even though I was not issued a "gag order" by any judge or settlement, I have not had much to say in any public forum.

When I first met Rob Dubin I had nothing but the upmost respect for the man. Rob appeared to be very intelligent, skilled and results driven. We had gyros and sailing in common.
Rob was about to begin a new venture as the Xenon distributor for the USA.
Rob was in a very tricky position as the new Xenon he was bringing over to the USA, the first in the country, would barely get here in time to be built & certified and the hours flown off before Bensen Days. I was asked for help.

I had tickets to fly down to B-days commercially, I canceled those and drove down early to meet Rob so we might get the project rolling. The Xenon was to be assembled at my friend's hangar in Sebring, FL.
As a DAR I was not allowed to do any hands on work on an aircraft I was to certify. Chuck came along with me help Rob and others build the aircraft. I have a lot of pictures we took to make a "builder's log".
Almost immediately afetr the certification and first flight, things started to deteriorate. Neither Chuck nor myself were compensated in any way, for the days of long hours we spent at Sebring. I don't even recall a thank you. Raphael Celier gave me an autographed hat at the B-days banquet (not so special, as he handed out quite a few)

Moving forward several years, I must add that Rob's lawsuits against me were dropped. "Conspiracy to defraud (erroneously thinking Chuck and myself were partners in my business) was dropped by the court. The second lawsuit "Breach of contract" was dropped by Rob after I countersued. It is the only time I have ever sued someone.
The net result of my experience with Rob was some commision from sales (2007 SNF 12 hr days at the display)(Oshkosh 2007, only left the booth a few times for meetings and 1 aircraft certification).

I have read the story that Rob is willing to send you all.
Rob was a great videographer, he would also make a great screen writer as he can liven up a story with a smattering of facts and a great deal of fiction.
I'd be happy to answer any of his claims, line for line, with the truth.

[StanFoster]

Rob- Just some friendly advice. Most people here value reputation more than anything. Chucks gyro was returned with damage, and I wouldnt accept it either.

We all make mistakes....but its how we correct our mistakes that redeem us.

The first mistake was made, and the 2nd mistake being made is continually doing nothing about it. I WOULD TAKE OUT A 2ND MORTGAGE ON MY HOME, if I had to make it right with Chuck. I know you wouldnt have to do that, and that makes this even harder to understand.

Tom sleeps well at night because he has a good reputation. He doesnt have people coming up to him at fly-ins at literally getting screamed at and a finger in the face almost touching it. I saw such an incident at Bensen Days. I was talking to you in the tent...when John Salz came up and started shaking his finger in your face....and literally reading you a riot act. I have never seen someone so mad, and this could not have been faked. You can tell. I felt embarrased for you and got out of there as it wasnt any of my business....and had to get a long ways away before Johns tirade with you could not be heard.

Since then I have heard many stories from respectable people saying similiar stories, though not quite as grand.

You can make the biggest turn around and pay Chuck the money back that you gained from reselling it anyway for even another $5000.00

Just my advice on how to start getting your reputation back.


Stan

[RotorTom]

In this world there are two kinds of bankruptcy:

1. Necessity - when circumstances beyond your control ruin you financially ... A major recession, medical bills, injury, unemployment, etc.

2. Convenience - when people want to escape judgments, irresponsibility, gambling debt, credit cards, etc.

The real question ... What was it in this case?

[Heron]

He said, they said so far . . .courts will tell otherwise but always with a grain of salt.
Rob thinks he does not owe, Tom says this started wrong from the get go, I was both at Bensen Days and Sun-N-Fun and you guys looked like a team to me.
A great team should I add . . .
Rob, or anyone in this community, will not get away with fraud . . .he knows it!
Let it play out untill the end.
I am not taking sides untill they settle. It is an ongoing dispute and words missing.
All in deserves the BRAVO! He calls it as he sees it . . .
Heron (36 years as referee)

[Passin' Thru]

This thread is beginning to read like the Leon Uris novel "QB VII".:sad:

[PTKay]

I do not wonder any more, why Raphael is so careful about the US market.

Having burned his fingers so hard, he will now have to think not once or twice,
before he names another dealer.

I also got PM of the Rob story, nice fiction, after reading the posts here...

Does anybody still believe that Rob will "do the right thing"?

I don't.

[willisbr]

Anyone who wants to come to their own conclusions PM me and I will send you a list of facts that led to all of this.

Other than that I am done here.

Oh NOW you are done. You should have started this **** thread to begin with. It's a shame to this site and gyro community. Especially when you can't tale care of your own business. That's what most of us was trying to hint at on page one. Finally someone had the balls to break it open. This isn't information. It's muck raking. Screw that! What kind of man are you...and what kind of man feeds on that kind of ****?? Shame.

[MrGrey]

I had some time to mull it over today and realized I let my emotions get the best of me. I retracted my post, however, it does not change the way I feel. I am gonna own up to myself and admit that in my defense of those IMO who have been wronged by Rob Dubin was an over the top post. Still standing by my beliefs that a man should be held accountable for his actions and I think that this whole post just goes to show ya that : Karma is a bitch.

[Heron]

Some posts will fit better in a PM . . .
Heron

[MrGrey]

Some posts will fit better in a PM . . .
Heron

You might be right... doesn't change the way I feel about someone who hurt personal friends of mine who have been nothing but an asset to this community. I get passionate about those kinda things. He who throws stones should not live in glass houses....

[Heron]

If I see someone carrying stones I will ask : Hey? where are we building that bridge?
Heron

[Heron]

I feel like this thread should be moved to General Discussion, what do the moderators say?
Thanks
Heron

[mangyro]

I had some time to mull it over today and realized I let my emotions get the best of me. I retracted my post, however, it does not change the way I feel. I am gonna own up to myself and admit that in my defense of those IMO who have been wronged by Rob Dubin was an over the top post. Still standing by my beliefs that a man should be held accountable for his actions and I think that this whole post just goes to show ya that : Karma is a bitch.

Son,

You did not need to change your words. This guy is a scam artist and if you do a simple google.com search for his name the second thing that comes up is this little gem from his sailing buddies:

Basically, I met the Dubins aboard their boat in Maeva in
mid-April. They were having some technical problems with their DC charging
system and I offered to take a look at it. The regulator and alternator
diode turned out to be fried. We had friends coming out from the states to
join us in three days. Rob Dubin asked if it would be possible to have them
bring out spares. Since they were already bringing stuff for us I readily
agreed and didn't give it another thought. Three days later our friends
show up with everything including the Dubin's parts which I promptly rowed
over and delivered. They said they would reimburse me the next day after
the went into town.

With out our friends out for only 8 days, I wasn't really available to help
install the parts. I was a little surprised when Dubin was rather insistent
but figured he was just a little panicky. I sent my wife and friends off on
their own for the day and stayed to install the parts in Dubin's boat while
he watched. Fine. No big deal - glad to be of help. This was the third
day and I still hadn't gotten my money back out of Dubin but he said he have
it first thing in the AM. No sweat - whatever is convenient. By the time I
came out of the cabin at 9:00am the next morning Dubin's boat was gone and I
haven't heard from them since. It seems they also pulled some small
variations of the same theme for even very small amounts of money with some
local vendors. I hadn't planned to say much - what's the point. However,
now that I am back it still pisses me off.

You ask me it sounds like what he did to Tom Milton and Chuck when they helped him build gyros at Sebring and then did the same thing and scammed for cash. I can't prove it but after everything read here,,,,,,where there is smoke there is fire.

He even posts this kind of stuff on his own web page:

"Maybe next time you are tempted to play the lottery you could instead take that money and send it to a charity that helps others really make a difference in their lives."

"Until now we have not talked about it but our win was bigger than the 200 million dollar New York State Powerball prize... "

Well how much of that $30,000 lottery winning from Mr Chuck Roberg and extra $5,000 from Mr. Jon Salz did you donate to charity?

[Resasi]

Enlightening thread. Helped me.

Very very sad.

Taking advantage of people's good nature very very bad, particularly when in a such a fortunate position.

[Greg Mitchell]

This thread is beginning to read like the Leon Uris novel "QB VII".:sad:

Hey Pete,

As a young fellow in high school, we had to read a book by Leon Uris. I believe it was called Oh Jerusalem. Longest book I've ever read. Did give a fairly biased view of the events as I recall, certainly I felt it was designed to mould us into becoming more pro Jew, than Arab. Mick's, can be a funny mob.:noidea:

[Heron]

Geez Mitch . . .
This is a fun subject, arabs, jews, bias . . .Oh Lord!!!!
But the Dubin saga is almost told here.
Heron

[PTKay]

Yes, Rob claims he won his lottery being born in the US.
Yes, US is probably the country of many honest, helpful
people ready to support you having just your word as the
security for the payment they expect.

Yes, this is a lottery win for a scam artist like Rob (and his alike)
to be born and live in such country.

Very, very sad indeed...

[PTKay]

PT Kay
I have been retired and sailing on a boat for 16 years- it happens to be a fairly low cost lifestyle but in any event I have done it long long before I heard of Xenon, so I can assure you Xenon did not pay for that.

Yes, Rob, it is cheap, when you scam everybody around, as it has been
described above.

Yes, it seems quite easy to get away with such scams when you can just
put your sail and leave the harbour...

But we live in a global village and the message spreads very fast over internet.

I hope, that the result of your "warning" here against Raphael will turn
around and will warn everybody around the world to stay away from any
dealings with you, if they don't want to loose their time and money.

[Heron]

Thank you Arnie.
Heron

[CLS447]

I just caught this whole thread ! WHO WON WHAT BIG LOTTERY ?????

I started reading this thread backwards & then started at the first page. By the time I get back to the end ....the thing about a 200 million NY lottery thing had been edited.

So I ask again ...who won what lottery ????

[Heron]

It seems we have got the cross, nails and hammer . . .shall we?
Heron

[CLS447]

Heron, I don't want to crucify anyone. I was just curious about that lottery thing.

[Heron]

I know Chris, that was not for you, you just got here . . .
I want to know about the lotto thing also.
But we got the scoop and now we don´t have the means to arbitrate the dispute, which should be our main concern, get our fellow gyronauts to a better relationship.
It seems some money is misplaced and needs to find the right pocket.
Raw hide!!! :D
heron

[StanFoster]

Rob didn't say he won the New York lottery , but did better than winning it. I assumed he meant being in the USA and doing well in the movie industry, being able to retire very early and very wealthy . Stan

[Heron]

Oh! That´s right . . .I forgot that part.
Heron

[Heron]

Reading the whole affair, including the boating forum, all parties are hereby declared not guilty by reasonable doubt.
A judge or arbitration will settle the matter and the trio will settle the relationship, but I am optimistic . . .. :)
Heron

[MrGrey]

Reading the whole affair, including the boating forum, all parties are hereby declared not guilty by reasonable doubt.
A judge or arbitration will settle the matter and the trio will settle the relationship, but I am optimistic . . .. :)
Heron

O.J. Simpson was declared not guilty by reasonable doubt....

[willisbr]

If the gyro is a hit your must acquit!

[Heron]

Zactly!
WE know the facts as told by the parties.
WE know that something is wrong.
We don´t have the means to arbitrate.
I am not ready to give up the respect I have for all of them.
Lots of ifs ands and buts . . .
Will there be closure?
Will there be appologies?
Are we going to forgive?
Guess not . . .not in our inner fabric as it seems.
Heron
P.S The other guy did not blink to bundle Mrs. Dubin as wrong doer . . .Rob should never started the thread like he did.

[Aussie Blue]

WOW, what a saga. All I wanted to look at was thrust line and seat pitch info on a Xenon.
Thanks to all.

Blue

[1946]

I do not wonder any more, why Raphael is so careful about the US market.

Having burned his fingers so hard, he will now have to think not once or twice,
before he names another dealer.

I also got PM of the Rob story, nice fiction, after reading the posts here...

Does anybody still believe that Rob will "do the right thing"?

I don't.

Hmmm, the way I read past messages on this board, I would say the US market is very cagy with Raphael.....

Thanks
Albert

[RotorTom]

By the way, I am not taking Dubin's side for any issues brought up here (especially when it comes to Roeberg, Milton and Salz) ... but I resent PTKay making this about "Americans". Raphael's problems are not just about "Americans". I have first hand emails from people around the world disgusted with his business practices.

When doors fly off and you're told "You're the only one this has happened to" and you find out that numerous people had complained to him about the same thing ... you gotta wonder. And when people (in numerous countries) complain about "lack of support" ... you gotta wonder. And when people (in numerous countries) start comparing notes and discover lies ... you gotta wonder. Bottom line: "Americans": are not the problem.

Again ... I am not taking Dubin's side in this. But let's not rush to make Raphael a saint and don't judge all Americans by the way Rob has conducted himself. And PTKay, much of this forum is made up of "Americans".

[Heron]

Generalizations, often, tend to close the frame we are looking at, as well as some minds.
I have seen many people blame our Forum for their problems. It is like shooting the messenger.
WE don´t know how the deal went on, just what people say about it. Paper . . .spend some and prevent frustration by keeping your expectations low.
I was chocked when I realised Americans were people, just like me . . .movies and my expectations for Superman got me frustrated, but now it is allright . . .
You may now undertand a little better how important our Forum is and what we should do as far as behavior.
But I wouldn´t trade it for nothing.
Heron

[CLS447]

If I hit the lottery , I am not sure what I would buy........

It would be a side by side.

Xenon
Sportcopter2
Magni M24................................. decisions , decisions ............

[Heron]

They all look good Chris!
You are the man to fly and report the differences and the final choice . . .now go buy a ticket. :D
Heron

[PTKay]

Again ... I am not taking Dubin's side in this. But let's not rush to make Raphael a saint and don't judge all Americans by the way Rob has conducted himself. And PTKay, much of this forum is made up of "Americans".

Tom, I appreciate your comments.
You made your own experience with Xenon and Raphael first hand.

I am far from "making Raphael a saint".
What I know is, that within 5 years of his and Artur activity in Poland
they sold over 125 aircraft, 97% of it for export, and created almost 40 jobs
in the region where I live. And this is something in the time of crisis.

BTW: look carefully on the certificate he published.
The commercial name of the company is "Celier Aviation",
but followed by the name of Artur Trendak, and his home address
in MIchałowice, not the factory address. (Everybody can check it.)

I checked the legal situation, and formally the company is just
the personal business of Artur Trendak, from his home address.

I don't know the formal relations between Raphael and Artur,
I just read the certificate, and Raphael, besides his name in the logo,
has nothing to do with it.

As regarding "Americans", I never used this word in my post
and never refereed to the people, but to the "US market".

The market, where vicious lawyers were able to bring the whole
general aviation industry to near collapse. A market where everybody sues
everybody for everything, and the only winners are the lawyers.

I like the "Americans". Half of my family are "Americans", my uncle,
his 4 children, 5 grandchildren and a few great-grand children...

It's not the people, it's the system, and some of the people who created
it and protect it and keep it running to secure their profits.

I personally know nobody of the "dramatis personae" from the US.

I do believe, as usual, the truth is somewhere in between.

So, again, I like "Americans", I don't like American lawyers,
and I like this American rotorcraft forum. Period.

[dragonflyerthom]

Thanks PT K.

I agree with you on almost everything. This is with most of the people of the world. Take the politics out and the people are really great. I like the gyro pilots and fans also. But then there are a few that I don't like their way of doing their business.

[Heron]

WEll . . .if, at least, Americans learned to barbecue, they would be great mates . . . :D
That is because they know how to make beer now . . .
Heron

[Graeme Monro]

WEll . . .if, at least, Americans learned to barbecue, they would be great mates . . . :D
That is because they know how to make beer now . . .
Heron

Bull****. I tried their beer ( many different sorts) a couple of weeks ago and it was worse than cat's piss.
We Australians are the only people who make good beer.

Graeme.

[RotorTom]

But we have better beer commercials! Bar none.

[Heron]

True!
But even though Inbev bought Budweiser, the beer still the same made there, it was just a commercial plot to open certain markets.
Heron

[Buck]

The best beer is made in Europe, end of story.

[barnstorm2]

If I hit the lottery , I am not sure what I would buy........

It would be a side by side.

Xenon
Sportcopter2
Magni M24................................. decisions , decisions ............

Chris that is the beauty of the lottery...

Buy one of each and mark them Mon-Tue, Wed-Thirs, Fri-Sat and fly the AC on Sundays!

Bull****. I tried their beer ( many different sorts) a couple of weeks ago and it was worse than cat's piss.
We Australians are the only people who make good beer.

Graeme.

Yes, US beer is like sex in a canoe*


*(F***ing close to water)

The real question is why do Aussies know what cat piss tastes like?? ;)

.

[Heron]

Guess who makes beer in Brasil?
IN a while we will be discussing cangaroo stakes and apple pie for dessert.
My picks
Grolsch
St Pauli
Lowenbrau
Presidente
Heineken
Itaipava
Brahma
Bohemia
Michelob
Guiness
my favorite when I got in the US - Old Milwaukee (by the way, won the taste competition)
Forster = australian for beer = commercial only.
Heron

[StanFoster]

Heron- That's "FOSTER". Beer, not FORSTER beer. I should know, it was named after me! Stan

[Heron]

Sorry, tricky mind, I went in with that thought and came out wrong . . .
You know? You kinda look Aussie . . .but without all that violent behavior . . . ;)
I wonder if they have Teddy Crocs?
Heron

[1946]

Bull****. I tried their beer ( many different sorts) a couple of weeks ago and it was worse than cat's piss.
We Australians are the only people who make good beer.

Graeme.

Here we go… mate, you guys have a rubber throat and wouldn’t if you are drinking wombat piss or sulfuric acid, all the same, best beer and you better believe it , is Tsingtao Beer, and introduced to the United States in 1972, Tsingtao soon became the top-selling Chinese beer in the U.S. market and has maintained this leadership position ever since.

Thanks
Albert

[Gyro_Kai]

....
We Australians are the only people who make good beer.
....

ehm....

Kai.

[helipaddy]

Yep Kai, you guys make the best beer. Period.


Now the best Stout....

[RotorTom]

Wow. Has this thread taken a happy turn!

[Passin' Thru]

Yep Kai, you guys make the best beer. Period.


Now the best Stout....
No doubt about it!:peace:

[Heron]

Most brewers around the world have something common with Germany and surrounding nations about beer making.
Tsin Tao is one of them. German origin.
Heron

[PTKay]

If Poland a "surrounding country" to Germany (I guess it is),
then the best beer is Polish.
The best brands are:
Żywiec and Tyskie,
both brewed of the mountain spring water.
Everybody will tel you, the quality of the beer
is the water you use.

Also Czech beers are excellent, is is a mountainous country...

Both Pilsner and Budweiser, are just copied around the world,
but their origin is in Czech Republic, in Plzen and Budvar.

[Heron]

Down here we pick the plant of choice according to the water they have available.
Skol became a great beer when they bought a small factory of dark beer Caracu, right in the center of a regular sized town . . .the water was the secret.
About 21 km from my house is Brahma factory in Agudos, one of the best. The spot was picked after extesive research for good water.
And about our thread taking turns . . .it is just literary clay, we do what we desire with it . . .just have heart . . .
Heron

[CLS447]

This is a good beer !!!

http://weyerbacher.com/cwo.php?id=7&page_id=15

[karlbamforth]

Well in Germany I would go for Warsteiner, without doubt the king of beers.

Here in Langkawi it has to be Tiger and at a little over $1.00 a can is great value. (we are tax free on the island, you will pay more on the mainland).
You can get it for about half that if you buy it in a case of 24 at the mall.

[Heron]

I know what? I have to confess a sin . . .
Can´t remember one single german beer . . .and that is a big sin for a regular beer drinker.
Gotta be more carefull and not miss the next opportunity.
Heron

[PTKay]

When we are already so far off-topic on this thread, as to the "US market"
I would just like to mention another example of very good
product almost killed by arguments and lawyers.
I mean CH-7, aka Mini 500 aka Millennium.

The original inventor, author of the design Agusto Ciciare
burnt his fingers heavily on dealing in the US, later
Dennis Fetters killed the initiative by Millennium.

And who is the winner? Nobody except the lawyers.

Just time and money spent on suing each other making lawyers happy.

[Heron]

My Mom is writing a book, she is 84 . . .
Between romance, fiction and gossip, it is her history as she sees it.
She thinks it will be a best seller but, all involved are long passed . . .
Everybody is expecting The Gyro and when another regular product comes by . . .we can hear the sighs of frustration . . .
They differ very little and some are right there at the edge of the aerodynamic cliff!
The market is unknown and almost inexistent, this Forum is in no way, the thermometer for market´s reaction. We already have and fly them . . .
Heron

[scottessex]

OK Back on topic....Does the Xenon have a cup holder? :)

Yeah nobody likes a lawyer, until they need one....but still frivolous lawsuits hurt everyone,
We need loser pays...

[RotorTom]

I wish people would realize that good lawyers do good things and bad lawyers do bad things. Just like with any other field of endeavor.

I have run up against aggressive attorneys who were scum bags and unethical. I have also used good attorneys who helped me and others immensely.

[wdr_601]

OK Back on topic....Does the Xenon have a cup holder? :)

D@mn straight !! And a lighter and an ashtray! And a glove box...

(Addicted to coffee and cigs ... stay off your high horse pls)


William

[Doug Riley]

Scott, there are substantial penalties already on the books for "frivolous" lawsuits. The penalties can include loser-pays. They can be applied to both lawyers and their clients. A mandate to the judges to actually USE these penalties more freely might help. Most judges won't do it.

But... a rigid rule is apt to replace one kind of injustice for another. It'd be particularly hard on little guys -- as just about everything on the business-lobby's agenda is.

Much of the noise about "frivolous" lawsuits is insurance-company propaganda, meant to fatten their bottom lines. They spend millions on lobbying, and on P.R. campaigns to trot out such tales as the McDonald's hot coffee claim.

[Heron]

Wanna sugest wrong doing? Just place a rug on the floor . . .
Heron

[PTKay]

OK Back on topic....Does the Xenon have a cup holder?

Yes, on the option list... ;)

[Heron]

Uh . . .guys . . .not on topic . . .
Heron

[PTKay]

OK Back on topic....Does the Xenon have a cup holder? :)
...

I just visited the Celier Aviation factory and have seen the KISS prototype.

I can confirm, the cup holder will be build in into the side of the cabin.
Not an option, a standard feature. ;)

I am not authorized to reveal any further important details of KISS,
but I can assure you, it does exist.

:)

[willisbr]

Yes but will it blend?

[PTKay]

Not solved yet, but they are thinking about cooling...

[bones]

Uh . . .guys . . .not on topic . . .
Heron
Yep it wouldnt be like you to leave a thread on topic