Can We Remove Alcohol From Gas ?

[RockyMeLad]

Consider:
1.When using the poor man's alcohol detector (mix 1 part water with 10 parts gas, shake, let settle, see if there is more “water” than before), it appears that the alcohol and water combine (pulls the alcohol from the gas).
2.During normal pre-flight we check for and eliminate any water in the sump. Presumably the gas left in the tank is now fully usable.

During discussions with my son on the processes of “cleaning” home-made biodiesel, it seems intuitive that we could “clean” the alcohol from our gasoline.

1.Mix 1 part water with 10 parts gasoline
2.Figuratively speaking... stir well.
3.Let stand, allowing separation with the water/alcohol at the bottom.
4.Drain the water/alcohol.
5.Pour off the usable gasoline.

Empirically this seems possible since I have run the decanted gas after the alcohol test through a Mr.Filter and no new water is found.

It seems to good to be true, so probably is. Can anyone see the obvious gottcha that I have missed so far?

[automan1223]

My only concern is what your octane rating after you pull the ethanol from the fuel. Ethanol acts as an octane booster. I would also be concerned with the water absorbing other parts of the fuel that are critical fuel performance. Low octane can toast an engine faster than your perceived alcohol woes.

J

[RotoPlane]

I found this: http://www.fuel-testers.com/expiration_of_ethanol_gas.html

and this is what one guy does: http://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?t=78525

[All_In]

Right on Jonathan!!

Alcohol fuels such as methanol or ethanol may have octane ratings of 110 or significantly higher – ethanol's RON is 129 (116 MON, 122 AKI)

Also Typical "octane booster" gasoline additives like ethanol include MTBE, ETBE, isooctane and toluene. We are not sure if water also acts as a solvent / binder and may wash out too?

It's a great idea if you can test the octane and add a booster to replace any additives you lost.

[scottessex]

This has been discussed time and time again, do a search for "ethanol", I have posted numerous links to articles, etc. Rocky what you are left with is water, ethanol, and substandard octane fuel that is only good for burning brush. Lawnmowers wont even run on it once it phase separates. If you used this in your gyro, it would detonate and blow holes in the tops of your pistons as soon as you go to full power, all you will hear is the nice quiet swish of the rotors as your engine has already trashed itself in a few seconds.

[coolbaldguy]

This has been discussed time and time again, do a search for "ethanol", I have posted numerous links to articles, etc. Rocky what you are left with is water, ethanol, and substandard octane fuel that is only good for burning brush. Lawnmowers wont even run on it once it phase separates. If you used this in your gyro, it would detonate and blow holes in the tops of your pistons as soon as you go to full power, all you will hear is the nice quiet swish of the rotors as your engine has already trashed itself in a few seconds.

I agree. But as a side note you can remove water from oil and or diesel fuel by using vacuum. In a sealed vessel water boils at 72 degrees F when it is put under a vacuum of 20 inches of Mercury

[scottessex]

Sure you can remove it, then you are left with 2 useless liquids that kill weeds. :)

[Heron]

The hard question is: WHY?
heron

[scottessex]

Why what? Why ethanol mixed with gasoline?

[Heron]

Just say it! I promise it ain´t gonna hurt . . . ;)
Heron

[scottessex]

Ethanol is a SCAM there I said it!
The only thing Ethanol is good for is if you are a corn farmer, or a politician.


You know that Heron, Brazilian Ethanol is a different story all together.

[StanFoster]

24% of our corn is used for ethanol. There is a huge plant 12 miles west of me. They have a gigantic well that is just 1/2 mile from my shop. They pump that water 12 miles to the plant. I read it takes 1700 gallons of water for each gallon of ethanol.

It does benefit the farmers, just ask my dad. The grain is at record prices. Its all a bunch of lobbyists getting this stuff through. I am against it even though it helps the family farm considerably.


Stan

[Heron]

The entire energy matrix today is a scam, why do you think they fight Iran?
This pre-salt thing down here sounds pretty much like another scam . . .there is no technology to drill it out today, but the are already making money on it.
And you know who owns the rights don´t you? (starts with hali ends with . . . )
Why fret? just fill the tank and have fun . . .
Heron
Ammending for Stan´s post (after my clic)
Why not make sugar cane ethanol in Mexico, keep more people there and help solve a few problems?
All combustion engines today are prepared for alchool.

[StanFoster]

Heron- You are absolutely correct. Just fill your tank.....there isnt a thing any of us can do to change things.


Stan

[hillberg]

Ethanol is a crappy fuel,Burn 40% more for the same power as gasoline,:suspicious: burns clear and a spill after a crash that lights off cant be seen, Racers used to add nitro for more power but the exhaust hurts the eyes. Corrodes aluminum,Drink it you go blind,:Cry: Add it to gas? Does nothing but change the profit at the pump and reduce milage.:spy:

[automan1223]

The oil lobby is working hard here. Ethanol is a viable solution. Entire countries use it as a gasoline replacement. Octane is great, however it has poor cold engine performance woes below 50 degrees (hard to light off). Properly prepped I.C.E engines make MORE POWER and RUN COOLER than comparable engines. Running the wrong OIL and or WRONG MIX, IMPROPER jetting, will cause problems. Last I checked the 2 stroke fans had a hard time keeping their junk running on straight gas as it was.

Ethanol unlike lead, MTBE, and the new mystery octane compounds DOES NOT CONTAMINATE GROUND WATER. In other words you do not have to SHUT DOWN a water supply from contamination. We spend, no make that waste trillions of dollars for what ? . how is your share of the 3.7 TRILLION $ budget going ? The few pennies we spend on ethanol production, grain prices are moot compared to the cost of securing unfriendly countries, e.g: the middle east and the world wide war machine.........Consider that in your "financial cost analysis" when bashing ethanol. Otherwise your no better than Helicopter Ben when it comes to your accounting.

I also have a hard time believing Stans advertised water to ethanol production claims. Water can be recycled. I could save you some here in Eastern NC we are ready to wash out to the Atlantic.....

J

[StanFoster]

Jonathon- I read it took 1700 gallons...but now I just read it takes only 1200 gallons due to new corn genetic hybrids that break down easier.

But, what is left out of the equation is the energy to produce the corn for ethanol, the diesel fuel for the farmers, the natural gas used to produce fertilizers, all the energy for producing the farm chemicals necessary to grow corn that will then be turned into ethanol. There is more energy doing that also. THere is indeed a net gain of energy, something like 30%.

Its nothing but a big corn lobby, and both sides of the isle have their hands in the till. Its great for my dads farming operation.

These higher farm commodity prices will just raise the cost of food for everyone. Its great for the farmers.


Stan

[brett s]

Ethanol made from a food source is stupid, period.

[automan1223]

We could make fuel out of people, plenty of fertilizer out there, they want to make "chemical" cremation legal.....I only thought the mafia did that.

Stan there are plenty of pros and cons for the whole situation but as I flew back from Montana many years ago I think we flew at 30,000' on a clear night and it was pitch black below us. There is tons of farmland and places to plant crops. You have huge amounts of unemployed people that could be put to work. Better yet we would not be killing anyone or supporting tin pot dictators for 30 years to ensure "stability" in a region where everyone hates us. Like any problem as large as our energy sources, there is no quick solution. Even if the right technology were to be released tomorrow. I just feel that instead of bombing the $hit out of everyone who happens to be on top of an oil reserve, maybe we could chose a different path.

The most impressive aircraft I ever saw doing aerobatics at Oshkosh in 1994 was a pitts special ethanol powered biplane. 13.5 to 1 compression ratio and the fastest and most powerful aircraft I have ever seen put through its paces.

J


J

[StanFoster]

Jonathon- I can see your point. There are definitely pros and cons. Growing our own oil has a good sound to it, and its popular with the farmers. I am to gain from all this ethanol, and I am not just playing devils advocate. I just dont like the idea of using food for fuel, but thats just me.


Stan

[Heron]

It is said that the former ruler of Egypt (what an historical joke) will leave with 30 billion dollars, which brings me back to our subject, production of alternative fuel . . . why not?
WE know that any grain will be used as commoditiy price control, but that is only politics (isn´t it all?) as they did with corn in the past . . .but sugar cane, beets and others can be viable.
Question is: will the Oil Barons allow it? . . .and then comes . . . you . . .are you?
Heron

[Heron]

What was that? Another meteorite? :D
heron

[scottessex]

We have our own oil, Drill here drill now!

[gyro john]

I found whre ever I go in this country if you search your area you can find stations without alcohol. the fuel is usually higher priced but they sell it by the truck full, Its usually at an out of the way station you probably never stopped at. I found several. keep looking they are there Good luck

[StanFoster]

Matt- First of all, get your facts straight about me. I did not go broke farming. That was reak smart of you doing such thorough homework on me. Others here have bad mouthed ethanol more than I have. Sir, in case you don't know it, I have a horse in this ethanol race, as I will benefit from it. But, I am not letting that bias my opinion, and I am just being honest with my thoughts. I can see why you were banned using language like you just did here. I will just let you rant. Stan

[Heron]

If Matt has not gone "bananas" I will find him a pacifier . . .
YouTube - THE BANANA SPLITS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtD4mn9CeH4)
heron

[StanFoster]

As a former farmer, I totally understand Matts frustration. I was sick of the government using the farmers as pawns as they tried to manipulate other countries with freeer or more restrictive grain trade. I just was stating my honest opinions even though I will gain later in life from ethanol. Matts livelihood is being touched on here, and that's why the hot emotion. Stan

[hillberg]

Spent all my life around Alki Fueled race cars,:boink: Its a waste,low BTUs-:smokin: A note on oil ,Its the second most abundent liquid on the planet-Like dimonds its over regulated -:painkiller:

[JoeSwanton]

There appears to be a need of a lot of facts to be checked here. Stan, the consumptive water use by modern ethanol plants is about 3 gallons per gallon of ethanol produced. NOT 1200 GALLONS. Ethanol plants are designed to recycle water within the plant and usage is due to evaporation during cooling and waste water discharge.
NO BEACHES HAVE BEEN CLOSED DUE TO ETHANOL SPILLS --AMERICA’S CLEAN FUEL
NO U.S. SOLDIERS TO DEFEND OUR ETHANOL RESERVES – AMERICA’S INDEPENDENT FUEL
NO WARS HAVE EVER BEEN FOUGHT OVER ETHANOL -- AMERICA’S PEACEFUL FUEL
NO MILLION YEAR WAIT TO REPLENISH IT – AMERICA’S RENEWABLE FUEL

[cruizer]

Todays gas blends are "allowed" to be up to 10%- E10, now E15-15% is on the way.

[Dale Young]

I got band from Doug Reevs'e site for thirty day's for sticking up for Ethanol,my goverment and my way of life. So let's see if I can get kicked off this forum. First off all let's pick on Stan why don't you just keep doing what your good at and that is building stairway's and flying and keep you F!#cking mouth shut and quit bad mouthing Ethanol. And that goes for the rest of you buthead's that hate Ethanol and think us farmer's are the cause of high food price's. If you want to talk about farming go to the Ag talk forum and you can bash Ethanol all you want to and I will not say a word. But this forum is about rotorcraft in case you forgot. No I am not going to start arguing with a bunch of idiot's so don't come back and ask me question's about anything that has to do with farming,Ethanol or how our goverment works. If you do not like it grow your own damn food and leave this site to rotorcraft talk only. Go ahead the power's to be of the rotary wing forum you have my permision to band me for sticking up for all the Amercian Farmer and the country we live in.

Good Day to you all

Matt,
With all due respect,...It's hard NOT to talk about aircraft and NOT mention ethanol. I deal with co-ops on a daily basis and they HATE the stuff. In my opinion, it is garbage and has killed more than a handful of pilots that did'nt have good enough information to AVOID the stuff.
Even the "green" crowd that used to laud the stuff now says that it pollutes MORE than regular gas.

I used it in my gyro until it ate its way through my fuel lines. I also burn MOGAS in my Grumman. I have to test every batch of fuel that I burn to make SURE that ethanol is not present. Its presence in an aircraft's fuel system is a sure-fired way to vapor lock and put an aircraft into a neighborhood at 120 mph. I have every manufacturer of aircraft engines in the world to back me on this, So you don't have to take my word for it. Why do ya think we have to test for it anyway?

Lastly, I'm sure your passionate about your beliefs, We all are, but we don't play that garbage-mouth crap here. Address others with repect , and you won't have to worry about being banned.

[Russ Hobbs]

I have to agree with Dale, fuel problems related to ethanol have caused problems with our 2-stroke rotax motors on fire pumps. It is an issue when it effects operations, or becomes a life safety issue. I don't have a problem supporting farmers or reducing our dependance on foreign oil. :)

[Dale Young]

No problem with farmers here either. In my opinion, Farmers and truck drivers keep this country alive.

No aircraft engine manufacturer has or will ever give the o.k. to use ethanol as a suitable fuel alternative for their aircraft engines. It harms engine/fuel line components, attracts water(a major no no in aviation), hurts fuel economy, and causes vapor lock. A lycoming engineer was the first to enlighten me to the ills of this fuel.

I'll be the first to admit that I personally do not have a CLUE as to an answer for this countries fuel woes, but I DO believe that ethanol is NOT IT!

The viability of ethanol is more politically based, than in real-world practicality. And being PC won't keep ya from drilling a smoking hole in a sub-division at 10:00 pm when your engine vapor-locks or draws water and quits.

[All_In]

I got band from Doug Reevs'e site for thirty day's for sticking up for Ethanol,my goverment and my way of life. ...

Naw Matt we won't kick you off for having a strong opinion... We may argue with you.
However you got our buddy Stan all wrong! Don't think he has failed anything in is adult life.

:focus:
The actual reason and point of this thread is to remove the ethanol before it dissolves our seals, fuel tanks, lines, etc!

Ethanol has done significant damage to folks engines, fuel tanks, etc here some have to pay more for aviation fuel to avoid it so we HATE ethanol here, sorry! :yo:

[scottessex]

Matt, the problem I have is CHOICE,
Let me CHOOSE to buy regular gas or Ethanol blend.

Let me Choose my light bulbs, Let me CHOOSE what food I eat (I don't need fat ass Ms. Obama telling me what to eat when she can't even keep the fat off her own a$$.)

Let Me CHOOSE what car I drive. (if the new Chevy Volt is SO good, why does it have to be subsidized?)

Let me CHOOSE how I spend and invest my money, basically I may be really off the mark here, but I feel that I can manage my money and take care of my family better than some Gov bureaucrat, Am I crazy?

Ethanol is a SCAM along with Global warming and all the other BS dreamed up to make you pay for being successful and to try to make you feel guilty for being an American.
Screw em, all of em.

[Heron]

Scott
Brazilians that invested in the Pro-Alcool back in the 70s got taken for a ride but, out of options they insisted and today things are different . . .
Also, don´t blame all in the product, just yesterday a tractor operator got killed by african bees after his machine hit the hive . . .he was preparing land for sugar cane . . .
And for Ms Obama´s ass, I have to call your attention to the fact she is Afro descendant, (prone to prominent tushes)
My point is: instead of trying to get the less loved fuel out of gas, why not prepare the engines so this won´t be an issue?
Also, there is a conspiracy for sure and those who never believe can´t come here crying wolf . . .either we are curraled by a certain group or we don´t, pick your trench and prepare lots of ammo . . .
Heron

[matt]

I can't believe it! I thought for sure when I got out of bed this morning that I would not be able to get on the Rotary wing forum. Thank you guy's for that. Even though I do not think this should be debated here or anything else that is not gyro related I respect you all for letting me speak my peace and not go Ape with me and Stan Foster was the best. I should not of targeted him out but I did and he took it very well. From our private messages me and Stan had I think he will still talk to me. But I would not blam him if he told me to take a hike. I deleted that post I made because I think it is uncalled for. So now we can all agree on something on this forum that I should not of used that kind of harsh word's toward's one person. I would love to try to answer everybody's question's on Ethanol but I can't type that much and I am not trying to get people here to agree with me on Ethanol. I myself have bought a 300 gallon tank and have the fuel Man bring me out Ethanol free fuel 93 octane so that I can run in my two stroke's. This is all I have to say about this. Thank you guy's for bearing with me and not just banding me like Doug did.He will not even give me time to explain myself. That just does not seem right. He want's you to donate money for his income and I have been doing that. $100 the last couple year's. I would think he could give me at least one phone call. But whatever.

[Dale Young]

Heron,
Ethanol CANNOT EVER be used safely as an aviation fuel by virtue of it's composition. No matter what ANY gov't may say.

You say that Ms. Obama's ass is genetically prone to draw fat cells, Ethanol likewise draws water. But water in your aircraft's fuel is much more likely to kill you than Ms. Obamas' assfat. That is, as long as Ms. Obamas' assfat does'nt somehow make it's way into your aircrafts fuel tank. In the unlikely event that you get Ms Obama's assfat in your tank, you are equivalently screwed.

Also, Ms. Obama's assfat CANNOT EVER be used safely as an aviation fuel by virtue of it's composition.........no matter what ANY gov't may say.

In short,... Ethanol, like Ms. Obama's ass, could end up costing you your ass someday.

[Dale Young]

Matt,
So let me get this straight. You believe in the use of ethanol, as long as it is'nt you that has to use it?

[Heron]

The more you talk about Mrs. Obama, the more I like Rose´s tush (my afro girl friend) ;)
But for alchool on airplanes . . .here
YouTube - AERONAVE IPANEMA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOhCHWPloFE)
heron

[StanFoster]

Matt- We all get passionate about our feelings from time to time, and say stuff we wish we hadn't of. So why should I hold that against you? Your statement gained instant disrespect from me, but your private message put back more respect than you lost. I REALLY want to believe there are many more pluses than negatives with ethanol. It has a nice sound to it. I definitely am not against farmers, I was one and ethanol will someday be a big part of my retirement. How many people challenge something that will personally benefit them someday? My point is I feel I have an anti-bias on this topic. I would be delighted to take you up on your RV6 trip to an ethanol plant. Why don't you fly down to Paxton, and I will drive you over in my E-85 powered Ford to Gibson Citys huge ethanol plant. I really want to believe in this stuff. However, good stuff or not, I have to agree with Scott in that we should have a CHOICE. I always believed in free markets when I was farming, and hated it when our government would pull their grain embargoes, and devastate farm prices. Farmers are the backbone of our country, hands down. I thank the american Farmer for allowing me to be in the best fed country in the world. I was not smart enough nor had passion to make a good living at farming. Instead I just am a stairbuilder. I have never heard that stairbuilders are the backbone of our country! My hats off to all you farmers who let me speak my mind with my mouth full. Stan

[Heron]

More Ipanema . . . not that one . . .
YouTube - Ipanemão movido Ã* Ã�lcool (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kMwqzyDGPg&NR=1)
heron

[Dale Young]

Heron,
I watched the video, but could'nt understand the language. But worst of ALL , I saw no reference to tushes anywhere in there!............All airplane stuff, blah, blah, blah.....No tushes! Generally speaking,......If I am to dedicate more than 4 minutes of my time to watching video, there had BETTER BE SOME TUSHAGE!!!!!! Now I'm really mad at you Heron!!!!

[Dale Young]

Furthermore Heron,
For God's sake man! You live in BRAZIL!!!! I expect a better choice of videos outta you!!!!

[scottessex]

In short,... Ethanol, like Ms. Obama's ass, could end up costing you your ass someday.

Wow, talk about unintended circumstances! But hey I couldn't agree more.
I do not need some gov bureaucrat who has never had a job a day in his life, making decisions on what I do or what I spend...as long as I do not harm anyone else.

[Heron]

Scott
Here
http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D9LDSSFG1.htm
Unless you get the ballot diploma, you will have no saying in all this . . .I think it should be a technical decision, but . . . money will trade hands and the choice will trade states.
Now . . .I have posted the tush finals on another thread, did you miss it? :D
Got plenty more where those came from . . . ask and you will be heard . . .
Heron

[Heron]

Here is a word from the experts:
This question originated in a reader questioned the fact that water from hydrous separate when added to gasoline. His question was whether the separation of fuel could damage the pump, since it would first seek water and damage the engine.

Well, to better explain the subject we must go back in time, more precisely to the 80s.
At that time, the national gasoline tetraethyl lead used as anti-knock. But it is carcinogenic, this product has been replaced by adding alcohol to gasoline composition.
But that was no common alcohol, anhydrous was chosen, containing no water. This ensures that, when mixed with gasoline, it does not form a two-phase system. (Remember, gasoline and water are immiscible liquids).

Since then, the percentage of anhydrous ethanol in gasoline alone increased from the current 26%. Just for the sake of knowledge, gasoline test pattern is known as E22, ie, has 22% alcohol in its composition. Due to mixing alcohol, the name given to national gasoline is actually, Gasohol. The hydrated alcohol at the pump has 5% water in its composition, being known by the code E100 or 100% ethanol.

Now, when we mix gasohol and hydrated ethanol we realize that the water contained in alcohol is combined with anhydrous ethanol for gasoline, forming two distinct phases: the pure gasoline over, and the mixture of alcohol and water underneath. What is not cause for alarm, since the percentage of water present in the mixture is very small, what the pump sucks, in reality, is a mix with higher percentage of alcohol.

Another interesting detail is that all components exposed to fuel "green" are prepared to withstand oxidation and acidity. The pump, for example, is prepared for it, showing no defects even when working with pure alcohol. The same can be said of the fuel injectors, which are of stainless steel are prepared to work with alcohol.

[Heron]

Here is a word from the experts:
This question originated in a reader questioned the fact that water from hydrous separate when added to gasoline. His question was whether the separation of fuel could damage the pump, since it would first seek water and damage the engine.

Well, to better explain the subject we must go back in time, more precisely to the 80s.
At that time, the national gasoline tetraethyl lead used as anti-knock. But it is carcinogenic, this product has been replaced by adding alcohol to gasoline composition.
But that was no common alcohol, anhydrous was chosen, containing no water. This ensures that, when mixed with gasoline, it does not form a two-phase system. (Remember, gasoline and water are immiscible liquids).

Since then, the percentage of anhydrous ethanol in gasoline alone increased from the current 26%. Just for the sake of knowledge, gasoline test pattern is known as E22, ie, has 22% alcohol in its composition. Due to mixing alcohol, the name given to national gasoline is actually, Gasohol. The hydrated alcohol at the pump has 5% water in its composition, being known by the code E100 or 100% ethanol.

Now, when we mix gasohol and hydrated ethanol we realize that the water contained in alcohol is combined with anhydrous ethanol for gasoline, forming two distinct phases: the pure gasoline over, and the mixture of alcohol and water underneath. What is not cause for alarm, since the percentage of water present in the mixture is very small, what the pump sucks, in reality, is a mix with higher percentage of alcohol.

Another interesting detail is that all components exposed to fuel "green" are prepared to withstand oxidation and acidity. The pump, for example, is prepared for it, showing no defects even when working with pure alcohol. The same can be said of the fuel injectors, which are of stainless steel are prepared to work with alcohol.
thanks
Heron

[All_In]

Way to go Matt and Stan. Good example HERE for the rest of us we are friends with different opinions and we let you say them.

We are not always the most tactful, but name calling usually = your losing the debate or can't express your point. No one learns and most think the name caller is a jerk!

If you print facts we can check most of us learn and I'll change my opinion when wrong many here have and will too.

I keep in mind, my opinions are worth exactly what you are paying for it.

[Dale Young]

Heron,
Ethanol eats all the gasketing related to an engine. (carburetor, fuel lines, etc). Then it extracts water out of humid air at an astounding rate. It's equivalent to pouring 1/2 a soda pop can of water in your tank/ 20gals of fuel.
If you take time to read NTSB reports relating to crashes because of vapor lock due to ethanol found in mogas, you will NEVER use the stuff.
There are good reasons why NO MAJOR AIRCRAFT ENGINE MANUFACTURER will allow you to use ethanol in their engines. The problem gets even worse in aircraft with a low wing design, due to the fuel having to be drawn upward through a hot fuel line. Research "Reed vapor pressure test" an you'll see why vapor lock is an issue. Simply put, Ethanol in AV fuel is a potential killer. DO NOT USE IT!

[Dale Young]

Btw,
Everyone brings up the aerobatic plane that runs off of E85. Ask the pilot how long he allows that plane to sit with the same fuel on board, and see what he says. After a short period of time, ethanol separates into useless crap in a tank. Plus all gasketing and fuel lines have been changed to restrict damage from the ethanol.
Yeah, It'll work,.....for awhile. No thanks.

[hillberg]

A standard/utility Catagory Aircraft with an ethanol /alcohol fuel or additive not on the T.C. and not Certificated EXPERIMENTAL , will need removal and inspection of the fuel system,power plant and airframe, For corrosion on all aluminum parts,seals and gaskets for chemical attack, replacement of pistons,valves,connecting rods, seals, overhaul of the fuel system and all parts in contact with the fluids. repair of the fuel tanks (some sealers are removed by alcohol) boost pumps,engine driven pumps overhauled or replaced, All aluminum lines replaced,Fuel vent,fuel line,valves.& rubber too, It all adds up. If you don't make a smokin hole first, I could make some good coin here.

[Heron]

I imagine we will never have a nuclear powered airplane, then . . .
But you can´t keep moving to a position where your opinion wins . . .we have to fix where the ethanol will be an option, or this is just blabber for fun, debate for exercise.
The engine must be made for alchool, it will never have gas mixture, unless it is a flex engine where the experts said: anidro and hidratado will mix and separate from gasoline, then the pump will pick one first and there will be no problem because the new white mix is only 5% water . . .
You can´t put the booze on a regular AV engine, I thought we had passed that point . . .
Look at the Ipanema 100% alchool, it looks like an aircraft engine there . . .
It will not mess up and that is 70% less if compared to Avgas, lots of savings.
Are we in the same page now?
Just shake the tank now and then to keep the mix flowing good! :D
Heron

[Dale Young]

Don,
It is amazing to me, how often I hear of people who don't mind running down to the local swifty discount gas place and getting a 5 gal jug of 87 and dumping it in their Cessna/ Piper, etc, without any reguard. The guy hangared next to me (Piper 140) had to replace BOTH TANKS last year, yet he still does this!

[Dale Young]

Heron,
PLEASE research NTSB crash synopsys reports reguarding ethanol.

[hillberg]

Heron-Even your own vidio has the plane placarded :boink:"EXPERIMENTAL" and in the states a B-36 was used as an Atomic powered test bed- Its buried as waste at Edwards-:painkiller: The better fix is synthetic petrolium not too meny stainless steel airplanes out this day & age.:wacko:
The more you folks abuse the machines the better I'm paid.:wave:

[Heron]

Bingo! WE are not talking the same thing!
Heron

[hillberg]

:eek:Didn't this thred start on removing alcohol from gas and not gas from alcohol?:lol:

[scottessex]

I think we should be concerned on how to get the bureaucrats to remove their heads from their a$$'s. !!! :D

[Heron]

It starts to feel like those people that buy property around airports because it is cheaper and later move against the noise, etc . . .
Why don´t we start a thread on using alchool in diesel engines? :eek:
It is been said . . . and time proven that, a nation has the government it deserves . . .
Heron

[perbgyro]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_vilsack_e85_incentives/print

[Heron]

Don´t worry . . .Brasil is buying USA ethanol . . .you are going to profit!
Heron

[lanichol]

Gasoline has it's own fingerprint. By law gasoline is limited by environmental regulation as to the vapor pressure which is a large variable during refining especially when ethanol is involved in the final product. The goal is to prevent vapor from escaping while filling. It would be interesting to fingerprint gasoline minus the ethanol to non ethanol gasoline. Can a person somehow raise the effective octane rating (http://www.elmhurst.edu/~chm/vchembook/514gasoline.html) with an additive? This is the basic question and probably could only be answered by calling the lab in one of the refineries.


Ethanol is subsidized, thus corn prices are much higher and tied to the price of oil which is subject to world chaotic events. In the end, input cost rise,cattle numbers (http://www.hpj.com/archives/2010/dec10/dec20/1215CattleInventorywspeaker.cfm) will drop and meat prices will rise along with other agriculture products. Ethanol is a bad idea in so many ways. It is drive by fears of limited oil, the theory that CO2 causes climate change, and manipulated for political gain. But oil creates wealth as in the case of Alaska that has a 3.4 billion budget surplus.

Do we have enough oil without ethanol? Oil can only be booked after it is drilled and produced. There are so many large areas where the geologic conditions exist for the diagenesis (http://www.glossary.oilfield.slb.com/Display.cfm?Term=diagenesis) and trapping of oil that has not been explored. Therefore the true number of oil reserves is not know and only imagined in the minds of a few.

In 1958 we thought we were running out of oil.

“Oil is Found in the Minds of Men.” (http://www.mortalresurrection.com/lagniappe/oil-is-found-in-the-minds-of-men/)

“We usually find oil in a new place with old ideas. Sometimes, we find oil in an old place with a new idea, but we seldom find much oil in an old place with an old idea. Several times in the past we have thought that we were running out of oil, when actually we were running out of ideas.” – University of Tulsa Petroleum Geology Professor Parke A. Dickey, September 1958.