maybe yes /maybe no ???

[WHY]

looking for comments, could something like this be made ultralight if the fuselage was made from glass and foam sandwich with just mast and firewall and landing gear metal ????

Tony

[bones]

Looking at it now i would think you would get it in under the minimum weight :)

[imsofaman]

Wow! That looks very promising. But, I would feel more comfortable with an aluminum frame underneath and supporting those rotors. OK that being said, why not the aluminum frame and a light stretching canvas over it? You could make the leg protectors and dash all one piece? How much does a rotor system weigh? Ok...on the subject of rotors, has anyone made "old school" rotors with wood and canvas but using 21st century technology with carbon fiber, Poly-Fiber and wood? Just thinking of three blade system made of that. Just thinking out loud....


Dave

[WHY]

Hi Dave

Actually My thought was the back portion of the "pylon" would be 2x2 6061 -t6 and the front two legs would be some 4130 like my present tractor. The overhead piece would also be 2x2 6061 with adjustable plates for attaching the head for proper hang. You would set "on" this like a motorcycle, not in it. made this about 10 years ago and since then would now think to have the "side covers" go all the way back to behind the seat, forming a pod and reducing the drag. Also would consider the "deadly, terrible, disasterous, daring, overhead control stick". Fuel tank could be under the seat or in the back of the seat. The "pod" side covers would be moulded glass or plastic. Engine wuld be anything from a 447 to a MZ202. This used to have narrow windshield on it but it got lost.

Dave, if you run "uni" glass tape in the seams before you glass it will be strong as hell. There would of course have to be some "hard attach points" in the structure for the gear, tailwheel and engine mounts as well at the pylon.

Thanks for looking and comments.

Tony

[WHY]

Dave

A three blade rotor system works ok on models but is a whole basket full of snakes on the full size.

Tony

[imsofaman]

I dont know much on the full scale gyros except the word "Rotax". LOL! I need to read more on this forum and educate myself on the full scale birds. I saw a Benson fly at an airshow when I was little and fell in love with autogyros on the spot.

I hope you can make this into a reality. :)

Dave

[imsofaman]

I meant full scale engines on gyros.:der:

[WHY]

Dave, I am up to my eyebrows in my present tractor project, this one would have been much easier. After seeing what you did with that fantastic Pitcarin, a model of this should be a piece of cake. Who knows, if you made a model of this and it flew good maybe someone would want to try to make a full scale, would give any help I can.

The main problems I saw with this after I got the idea was that with composite work you really need a "proper " place to work where you have some temperature control and some humidity control and finally most of the experience in builiding in the gyro comunity was with 2x2 aluminum square tube so the construction style would not be popular.

Tony

[imsofaman]

May I ask what the present project is? It also is a Tractor?

[WHY]

Hi Dave

Yes it is a full scale tractor, even has some of the design ideas of the toy used in it .

Tony

[imsofaman]

OK...I am going crazy wondering what you are working on!!! Will you post a pic or is it on another thread?

[WHY]

Hi Dave

Have posted some various photos of "in progress" construction but hesitate to post many because I am TERRIBLY SLOW. This project has been on and off paper and in various stages of experimenting for over 15 years and finally under construction for the last 3 years. So you would have to "mark lines in the floor " to see progress. Will however try to find some photo that might give some idea.

Tony

[WHY]

Dave these are not the best but give some idea

[scottessex]

I like the design, kind of like an "airbike"
I like the raven-rotor ultralight in the picture here, it looks very simple and light.

[imsofaman]

Fantastic!!!! It looks really nice and just curious about your engine. Water cooled? What make is it? I like your framework and the engine mount, Very impressive!

[swfarrier]

Tony, What are you using for materials in the frame? Is it all 6061? Just wondering. Jim.

[WHY]

imsofaman and swfarrier

The engine is the Weber MPE-750 that we talk so much about on the engine thread, mine is a normal aspirated one, not turbo. The airframe is 6061-t6 1/8 inch angle of variying sizes and turned out quite HEAVY to my suprise, can't remember the weight but was suprised, but then again I usually build like it is going to do carrier landings.

Engine will be around 75 hp and it is water cooled. have yet to design the cooling system and lube system. At the moment am working on lthe twin rudder set up, am not finding it very simple and still do what I want.

The airframe was derived from the "Texas Parasol " ultralight fixed wing airplane with several mods. The pylon is my design (more or less) I think.

Tony

[Alan_Cheatham]

One area of concern when attempting to convert any existing airplane fuselage into a gyro is the loss of strength due to modifications.

Many aircraft suggested for conversion include the high wing variety such as the Airbike and parasol designs, but most of these aircraft rely on their wing support structures to triangulate the fuselage and carry loads around the cabin, without such structures the fuselage can be severely crippled in strength.

One thing that effects the strength of a beam is it's depth, reduce depth and you reduce it's bending strength. Removal of the upper fuselage structure of a high wing aircraft to allow attachment of a rotor mast has the same effect as reducing a beam in it's depth and hence strength, and this reduction of depth will be especially severe if the fuselage has it's upper longerons cut to make openings for doors.

Caution and structural calculation is necessary to insure a safe design.

.

[WHY]

yup, a major carry thru enforcement from the instrument panel area to the lower longeron is mandatory along with angle "bridge work" in the door area.

Tony

[WHY]

The Airbike as shown in the picture just would not work as a gyro tractor fuselage with the overhead structure removed.

Tony

[Alan_Cheatham]

The Airbike as shown in the picture just would not work as a gyro tractor fuselage with the overhead structure removed.

Tony

Yep, the pilot would quickly become a red splotch on the seat.:D

.

[aviatakl]

Why would you remove the top section of the airframe for a tractor gyro conversion say from the AirBike.
The top section of the cockpit is ideal for the pylon construction to support the rotor system.
I have been looking at the AirBike construction and adapting it to a gyro tractor. I still like the LW as it is based on an 'existing' airplane airframe, and the look of it etc, but I see no reason to not look at the same sort of conversion from any other FW airframe providing that the support members are designed in to support the airframe, you and the rotor system.
In February, I am going to build a 1/3 scale set of wooden rotor blades, and see how I go with that. I will post a step by step photo log for all.

[imsofaman]

Jim.....I can't wait to see the wood blades. :)

[WHY]

The toy model tractor is a "fantasy" design of mine that I thought might have some unique possibilities, basically in that I could see the lower part of the fuselage being molded on the "half shell" out of fiberglass, a left side and a right side, then the seat back and instrument panel would be like "superstructre" added on the top of the lower airframe and finally the firewall and motor mount would be added with everything being put together just like a model airplane by using molded in alignment dowels and fiberglass tape and resin to bond it together. All "attach points" would have the hard points molded into the half shell, HS and seat back plus the firewall and motor mounts. Figured if it was manufactured this way, two people could have it ready for paint in one week, two weeks could have it in the air. BUT, as I said this is a fantasy idea and all fantasy ideas must meet the reality of engineering and fabrication and this can be a "waltz" if all the proper thought went into the fantasy or it can be a "break dance or even a brick wall" if not enough thought was used.

Tony

[kolibri282]

In February, I am going to build a 1/3 scale set of wooden rotor blades
Jim, it would be great if you'd post pictures of the progress of your build. I am sure that I'm not the only one who is very intersted in your idea.

[gbjunkie]

looking for comments, could something like this be made ultralight if the fuselage was made from glass and foam sandwich with just mast and firewall and landing gear metal ????

Tony

Ya' know Tony......the more I look at it, the more it looks like the Affordaplane idea I had.

Come on weather, warm up!!:ohwell:


Jody

[WHY]

Jody

If you are willing to put up with some more drag, think about this , (wish I could draw and post it). Start with 2 sheets of 2inch thick blue styrofoam 4 foot by 8 foot (Dow Chemical) glues together to make one sheet 4 feet by 16 feet. Draw out a profile from the tail to the firewall or motor mount and from the bottom to the top of the pilots head. Cut out the pilot seat area from the seat back to the instrument panel and just low enough to go from the pilots butt to the top of his head. Everywhere you see a need for extra strength lay down wide uni-directional fiberglas tape, one or two layers, core out all locations that will need bolts thru the foam where you will epoxy in "hard points" such as where the motor mount will attach, main landing gear will attach, tail wheel will attach, fuel tanks will attach, and ultimately where the 2 inch b 2 inch by 1/8 inch angle aluminum will attach to make the mast and seat back support and finally where the front supports for the "Pylon"will attach. Cut the foam to the desired "total" length (less engine mount) and GLASS THE WHOLE THING as a "sandwhich" construction and start bolting on the components like the gear, tail , pylon and engine. The fuel tanks could be side mounted under the seat. The seat back support and seat bottom support could be fiberglassed plywood bolted on.

You will just need a good understanding of sandwhich construction and a place to do it and a work table that was accurate flat.

It would be "draggy " but simple.

Tony

[gbjunkie]

Sounds like a reasonable approach.
I don't have a problem doing it, done it all before. Just don't have the space right now.

I started working on my modified Bensen in the back yard a while back. But other things got in the way and now the weather is in the dumps. Hopefully this spring I'll get back to a few unfinished projects.

Jody

[RotorTom]

Tony,

That is a great design! And your project is beautiful too. I love to see the talent that abounds on this forum. I look, read and learn every day.

Tom

[WHY]

Hi Tom

Thanks for the compliment, wish I had the time and energy to work on both, but I am now 69 and getting slow, It's taken all these years to come up with something I like and now I'm running in low gear, It's sort of like catching the eye of a hot 21 year old red head when you are wired for silver gray and 70, you just call one of your young buck friends and pass along the infromation.

Tony