Newbie narrowing buying field. What are my optons?

[Psalms18:10]

So much for my idea of a 2 seater as none of those qualify under FAR 103. Initially I don't want to incur the cost or time to get a Sport Pilot's license. So I'm narrowing the field. I'm pretty sure I want something with a prerotator. Not sure if there are a lot of gyrocopters that are under 254 lbs including a prerotator or not. I believe I read that the Gyrobee with prerotator and MZ202 engine is FAR 103 compliant. If that is the case, I'm guessing there are other models out there that are also compliant. Are most under 254 pounds with the prerotator or only a few? If there is a link to a list of them that would be great.

I also want something that is fairly current and without the thrust line issues / problem. Have not explored this area too much yet but a POP sounds pretty bad, so I want something that has a good size stabilizer and current thrust line specs.

Second question I have is on the approximate total cost to get a Sport Pilot's license in California to be able to fly heavier gyros? That is way off in the future. Just curious on the cost but no plans for that now.

I really appreciate the offers from members that have said I can call them. I'll be calling you guys after I do a lot more reading. I need to know a lot more before I even know what questions to ask! I Just mapped El Mirage and it's only about 95 miles from here. I'm really looking forward to getting out there one of these days to see some of your machines!

[Vance]

Initially I don't want to incur the cost or time to get a Sport Pilot's license.

Hello Tilden,

How are you planning to learn to fly without incurring the cost or time to get a sport pilot’s license?

Thank you, Vance

[Illini85]

The new generation of Honeybee might be what you are look for.

http://www.honeybeeg2.com/aircraft.html


Makes Part 103 requirements and has a prerotator as well. However I think they wouldn't be interested in selling you one until you can document having proper training.

[WHY]

Tilden

I would set tight for a little while, I understand Genesis is goint to come out with a ultralight in the fairly near future. Their G1sa would speak well for their design.

Tony

[willisbr]

Tilden, in my opinion you would be serving you and your family a greater helping of comfort by investing in formal training with a CFI and DPE. I would go ahead and shoot for your SP ticket. You can get ground training through a local airport or do it at home on your computer (i did the latter). Have a local CFI augment your ground knowledge and then get dual hours. The cost is all over the board. If I were you, I would make my initial investment in training training training. By the time you are finished with training, which is not so costly or timely intimidating as it may seem, you will have a greater understanding of flight characteristics of all sorts of gyros. You will also be able to narrow a bird selection with your own newly and properly acquired knowledge.

Have you heard of Tim O'Connors' newly published book, "You Can Afford to Be a Pilot"? It can be found on iBooks, Amazon, and many other online formats. He's a member of this forum. It's a great read and may answer many of these questions. Good luck!

[Alan_Cheatham]

Tilden

Ultralight or Sport Pilot it makes no difference, you will still need training. The minimum required for SP is 15 hrs dual instruction with 5 hrs solo and even if you tell your instructor all you want to do is fly ultralight that will still be about the minimum amount of training they will want to provide so plan on the expense. You can save on the expense of testing fees required for a SP license but not on the instruction part.

Don't even think of teaching yourself how to fly, you will almost certainly end up dead, it's not a flying motorcycle but a real aircraft requiring real piloting skills.

If you want to go ultralight with prerotator you will be very limited in your choices so if you could, give us here an idea of what you see yourself budgeting for your project so we can get an idea if it is in the realm of reality.

.

[Alan_Cheatham]

As for the new Honeybee ultralight, I would not consider it an option until they have a fully built, flying machine and put it on the scales to PROVE it makes ultralight weight. FAA says no more "fat" machines allowed.

.

[Gyro28866]

Tilden
I posted on another thread for you, about an Air Command in Arizona.
Billy Stewart (Billygyro) posted this for a friend. $1600.00 for a complete rolling airframe.
Checkout the other post.
http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28524

[PW_Plack]

Tilden, if you read this in time, plan to join Chapter 2's online meeting this morning at 9am Pacific. The business meeting will be followed immediately by a presentation on the HoneyBee G2 by the guy who designed it, Jim Fields.

The session will be followed by Q&A, a good opportunity to ask the source.

Details and login instructions here (http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28514).

[Russ Hobbs]

You can buy the sport pilot manual and test pamphlet from ASA, very reasonable. Study for the Sports Pilot test, take your initial flying lessons, tell your instructor when your ready to take the test and have him sign off for you to take the test. Take the written test, which you will pass if you did your study as the questions are given in the test manual. By then, and this can be a very short time period, you'll only need a couple more hours for a solo sign off. Practice flying solo under your instructors guide. When your ready,finish your dual time, take the final oral and practical exam and your good to go. I promise you any thing less is going to cost you considerably more in time and money. I know, because I didn't listen. My mistakes have cost me dearly, and almost cost me my life. I know have a very nice Dominator, passed my private test in the high 90's and still read everything I can on the subject of flying. If you have a IPhone or Ipad I can provide a list of very good training apps that will make your understanding and appreciation for flying much greater. Everyone here wishes you success, we are a pretty tight group of individuals who try to encourage new enthusiast to do it right the first time. If you take short cuts and end up seriously injured or worse, it hurts us all and the sport itself. Our kind of rotors aren't well understood, and our history has been jaded by design faults. Find a good machine and you'll command the skies.

[barnstorm2]

Have you heard of Tim O'Connors' newly published book, "You Can Afford to Be a Pilot"? It can be found on iBooks, Amazon, and many other online formats. He's a member of this forum. It's a great read and may answer many of these questions. Good luck!

Thank you Brian! :plane:

http://www.YouCanAffordToBeAPilot.com


.

[Russ Hobbs]

PS, this is a fun read for new and old, Tims book is a quick read full of good practical information. It could easily save you hundreds of dollars and many hours of research, and help avoid many costly mistakes.

[GyroDoug]

Tilden,

There is a Gyroplane that meets the criteria you have listed. It's the Butterfly Ultralight. It is the only modern design with centerline thrust and a pre-rotator, that makes ultralight weight and is available today. There are at least 2 other companies that are talking about having one available soon, but I haven't seen a flying example yet. So there may be several choices in the future but today there is only one. You can learn more about it at "thebutterflyllc.com".

That said, it sounds to me like you need to do some more research and better understand all the options and costs and the ramifications of each choice, before you will be ready to make a decision. It always makes me nervous when I hear people talking about getting started without spending the money to become a licensed pilot. While you can fly an ultralight without getting licensed, you can't do it safely without getting the training, and that is going to cost money. Training is hard to find and usually entails travel and substantial costs. That is really what keeps a lot of gyro dreamers from becoming gyro pilots. It will truly test how bad you want to learn to fly gyros.

Flying a gyroplane is one of the greatest experiences you will ever find. But do yourself a favor and count the costs carefully. Be realistic as you plan what it will take to get started in this sport and you won't be tempted to cut corners or make decisions that are based on purely financial reason (at the expense of safety). If you can't budget several thousand dollars for training, you really should consider a different sport where the training isn't required.

Right now you should find the closest local PRA chapter and join them. Get close to people who are already doing what you want to do and learn from them. No one person has all the answers, but collectively you will find a wealth of knowledge and help. Take your time learning your options, attend some Rotorcraft events, save your money until you can afford to do it safely and then you will be ready to take the plunge.

Best of luck with your adventure!!! Enjoy the journey!!!!

[BEN S]

was direct and to the point Tilden, I paid tons of money and time to "do it right" and I still balled up my machine by making a simple stupid mistake. If I hadn't had the training I would just be dead.
If you learn how to fly one, by the time you are ready to solo you will already be able to answer your own question about which machine to buy.

Oh and yes, it is WAY worth it. At some point you will look back at your accomplishment and the pride in your self will be unmatched.

Ben S

[Psalms18:10]

Hello Tilden,

How are you planning to learn to fly without incurring the cost or time to get a sport pilot’s license?

Thank you, Vance

I think I've watched enough YouTube flying videos to have all the basic flying skills down to attempt a solo gyrocopter flight.

LOL. No, just kidding. I'm just a clueless newbie and didn't realize the training is the same for both. I didn't want to incur what I thought would be double the cost and double the time to get a SP license in addition to the gyro training. I do plan to get proper training. If the sport's pilot license training is the same as the training for gyrocopters then that is excellent. But now you just created a new problem for me... I'm no longer bound to the 254 pound limit so I have to pick from an even larger pool of gyrocopters. Now a 2 seater option is very tempting again. I'd love to be able to fly with my kids, etc.

Russ - Yes, I have an iPad. Interested in your apps recommendations.

Gyro28866 - I really like the looks of that unit. Given that I'm still a clueless gyro newbie, the looks and color are the dominant factors in what I like in a gyro. That is a sure sign I should not buy something yet. That A/C looks like a great deal to get started. I'm guessing it will be gone before I can really have enough info to make a decision.

Brian - I just downloaded Tim's book on my Ipad! Looking forward to reading it.

It looks like I will get a SP license given the training to get the license is the same or significantly overlaps the training I should get for gyros. With that being the case, is there any advantage to sticking to a gyro that is under 254 pounds if I have a SP license?

Thanks to all who thought I planned to fly (kill myself) without training and were so diplomatic in how you said I would be fool to do so. You guys are very polite here! I'm very safety conscious because in my work I see the consequences of people who do stupid things and end up injuring themselves and other people. As a result of that I tend to over analyze things looking for how it is going to injure someone.

Please bear with me guys as I learn the basics and say some dumb things along the way...

[Vance]

I think I've watched enough YouTube flying videos to have all the basic flying skills down to attempt a solo gyrocopter flight.

LOL. No, just kidding. I'm just a clueless newbie and didn't realize the training is the same for both. I didn't want to incur what I thought would be double the cost and double the time to get a SP license in addition to the gyro training. I do plan to get proper training. If the sport's pilot license training is the same as the training for gyrocopters then that is excellent....


That is a large part of why gyroplanes have such a poor safety reputation.

I am pleased you will not add to that number.

In my opinion 15 hours of dual instruction would be less than is desirable for a the best flying adventure.

Thank you, Vance

[Friendly]

It would simplify things for everyone if we would voluntarliy not sell gyros without proof of training or CFI signoffs.

[willisbr]

With that being the case, is there any advantage to sticking to a gyro that is under 254 pounds if I have a SP license?

I don't believe there are advantages to UL per se. There are more restrictions. Weight, speed, fuel capacity, single place only, no operation in controlled airspace, even E designated for an airport unless prior authorized. So if you plan to fly from a local airport, you would have to request permission. May want to be sure of where you can fly before you consider UL further unless you have nearby field.

[skier]

It would simplify things for everyone if we would voluntarliy not sell gyros without proof of training or CFI signoffs.

Thats a great idea. Then you couldn't get a gyro until you solo, but you wouldn't have an aircraft to solo. Instructors won't let you solo their machines.

[GyroDoug]

There are some advantages to flying an ultralight (for the right person). If you have had a pilots license previously and then been denied a medical, flying an ultralight is the only legal option you have to fly (unless you can get your medical back).

If you are a light pilot (less than 200 lbs.) and you are willing to live without a lot of the frills and just want a light fun machine to bore holes in the sky, an ultralight is probably the cheapest way to accomplish your goals. Remember the lighter your machine, the less power it takes to fly (smaller engine is cheaper to buy and burns less fuel so it is cheaper to run) THe ultralight machine will cost less because it is a bare bones machine without all the options that make a machine more expensive. While it will still cost money and you still need training, it is generally the least expensive route to flying. You don't have to go through the stress of a written and practical exam or worry about the legalities of doing an annual on your aircraft. (although you would be a fool not to inspect it carefully every year, anyway)

However, for a little more money and a little more effort and quite a bit more red tape and paperwork, you can have a whole bunch of advantages by getting a sport pilots license. And even more if you are willing to go for your private license. It depends on the kind of flying you want to do, which will best fit your needs. One of the cool things about this journey is you are going to be learning all kinds of new information and getting all kinds of different perspectives as you talk to different pilots. You will probably change your mind several times over the next year as you work to decide what is the best route for you to take, but it will all be exciting.

Like I said earlier, it will be a process so sit back and enjoy the journey. (and welcome to the wonderful world of Rototcraft)

[BEN S]

to those anti-govt', leave us alone, don't want no big brother types.

Right Gary?


Ben S

[Heron]

Tilden
After you are done with training, calculate how much more you will need for your license, it will be just an add on.
Heron

[jcarleto]

I think I've watched enough YouTube flying videos to have all the basic flying skills down to attempt a solo gyrocopter flight.

OK, right away I knew you were kidding. There is no such thing as watching enough flying videos.

Oh, and let me put my 2 cents in with regard to Ultralight vs. Sport Pilot. There are many reasons why it is well worth the bit of extra effort to build/own a machine that is either Experimental Amateur Build or Light Sport Experimental. I personally believe that the 5 gallon limit for Ultralights is without question the single most vacuous, tedious and inappropriate restriction on Ultralight Aircraft when applied to gyroplanes. While it may be an appropriate and reasonable restriction for some fixed-wing and other more fuel-burn-friendly ultralight types, the greater fuel burn of a gyroplane makes it nearly impossible to do a reasonable warm-up and taxi and have enough fuel to complete a couple of normal pattern orbits without stepping into the safety margin. Any off-airport flights must be done with great care and planning to avoid the possibility of running out of fuel (an unpardonable sin, in my book).

[Psalms18:10]

Thank you Brian! :plane:

http://www.YouCanAffordToBeAPilot.com


.

Reading the book and had a question on medical. What is the deal with kidney stones? It is listed in the book as 1 of 3 serious conditions. I had some about 5 to 7 years ago. Man that hurt! Have not had any now for years. Can that be a medical issue for a SP license? Kind of confused because I thought all you needed for SP license was a driver's license to prove you are alive and not too sick to drive a car.

[Heron]

A kidney stone crisis can render you not able to function, sometimes you roll on the floor with pain.
Not good up there!
Heron

[kc0iv]

Reading the book and had a question on medical. What is the deal with kidney stones? It is listed in the book as 1 of 3 serious conditions. I had some about 5 to 7 years ago. Man that hurt! Have not had any now for years. Can that be a medical issue for a SP license? Kind of confused because I thought all you needed for SP license was a driver's license to prove you are alive and not too sick to drive a car.

SP license is more involved than that. You can not fly if YOU know you have a condition that you know, or should know, would not allow you to get at least a 3rd class medical.

In addition, the FAA has determined that the rule should explicitly provide that a pilot may not use a current and valid U.S. driver’s license in lieu of a valid airman medical certificate if the pilot knows or has reason to know of any medical condition that would make that person unable to operate a light-sport aircraft in a safe manner. This reiterates the requirement of §61.53, but ensures that a person using a driver’s license to exercise sport pilot privileges focuses on it. This does not require a pilot to qualify for an airman medical certificate, but if an individual has any question about his or her medical capacity to fly, that person should consult his or her personal physician. The individual still has the responsibility to determine whether he or she meets the provisions of §61.53.

http://www.leftseat.com/sport.htm


Leon
(kc0iv)

[PW_Plack]

...You can not fly if YOU know you have a condition that you know, or should know, would not allow you to get at least a 3rd class medical.

Can you support the portion in bold with a FAR reference?

Being able to operate an aircraft safely does not mean being able to pass a 3rd Class medical. It means what it says.

There are plenty of people who can operate an aircraft safely who couldn't pass a 3rd. Diabetics are allowed to fly LSAs under daytime VFR, but the FAA doesn't allow them to fly six-place aircraft at night, because the risks are significantly different.

If it's been years since your kidney stones, you should be able to get at least a special issuance 3rd. It may take some paperwork, and it would be a good idea to join AOPA and take advantage of the aeromedical advisor program.

I believe we'll see private pilots OK'd to fly with a drivers license within a few years. There's no real statistical/safety basis to deny it.

[kc0iv]

Can you support the portion in bold with a FAR reference?

Being able to operate an aircraft safely does not mean being able to pass a 3rd Class medical. It means what it says.

There are plenty of people who can operate an aircraft safely who couldn't pass a 3rd. Diabetics are allowed to fly LSAs under daytime VFR, but the FAA doesn't allow them to fly six-place aircraft at night, because the risks are significantly different.

If it's been years since your kidney stones, you should be able to get at least a special issuance 3rd. It may take some paperwork, and it would be a good idea to join AOPA and take advantage of the aeromedical advisor program.

I believe we'll see private pilots OK'd to fly with a drivers license within a few years. There's no real statistical/safety basis to deny it.

61.53 Prohibition on operations during medical deficiency.

(a) Operations that require a medical certificate. Except as provided for in paragraph (b) of this section, a person who holds a current medical certificate issued under part 67 of this chapter shall not act as pilot in command, or in any other capacity as a required pilot flight crewmember, while that person:

(1) Knows or has reason to know of any medical condition that would make the person unable to meet the requirements for the medical certificate necessary for the pilot operation; or

(2) Is taking medication or receiving other treatment for a medical condition that results in the person being unable to meet the requirements for the medical certificate necessary for the pilot operation.

(b) Operations that do not require a medical certificate. For operations provided for in §61.23(b) of this part, a person shall not act as pilot in command, or in any other capacity as a required pilot flight crewmember, while that person knows or has reason to know of any medical condition that would make the person unable to operate the aircraft in a safe manner.

(c) Operations requiring a medical certificate or a U.S. driver's license. For operations provided for in §61.23(c), a person must meet the provisions of—

(1) Paragraph (a) of this section if that person holds a valid medical certificate issued under part 67 of this chapter and does not hold a current and valid U.S. driver's license.

(2) Paragraph (b) of this section if that person holds a current and valid U.S. driver's license.


Leon
(kc0iv)

[Psalms18:10]

To be more specific, just because many years in the past a person had a kidney stone (that passed out of their system) how can that be something that can be an issue later when they go for their license and no longer have the condition? I used to drink too little and that is what caused the formation of a stone. After drinking normally I've never developed another. It would seem silly that it would be an issue years later unless the person had a current kidney stone condition where a stone could pass at any moment. An analogy would be a person that had high blood pressure from being obese and then losing the extra weight and now having normal blood pressure.

[Steve McGowan]

Reading the book and had a question on medical. What is the deal with kidney stones? It is listed in the book as 1 of 3 serious conditions. I had some about 5 to 7 years ago. Man that hurt! Have not had any now for years. Can that be a medical issue for a SP license? Kind of confused because I thought all you needed for SP license was a driver's license to prove you are alive and not too sick to drive a car.

After not reading much more than I don't want to pay the money to get a certificate,,, I must now say..

Sir,, You are the reason , the same as Vance stated that make gyro's look bad.. Bad attitude, money scaverger that doesn't want to live another day without its for free..

NOTHING comes for Free.. Do you work for nothing, do you not give your spouce or children adaquate funds to buy things with??

Im so damned tired of these poor mouthin asses that think gyros are for free.. Yes I have a BAD Attitude about it..

Go Jump out of a tree and see if you can float.. Hell No,, You had to climb it in the first place,, Thats called workin for something..

Thankyou Tim for printing your book.. But He wants it for Nothin..

Guess he got the computer for nuthin as well top post his desires..

The ones that know me.. Please excuse my ranting.. The Rest..Getta Life!!

ps.. You think Kidney Stones hurt!! U in for a real Shock!!

[Chuck Roberg]

Can you support the portion in bold with a FAR reference?

Being able to operate an aircraft safely does not mean being able to pass a 3rd Class medical. It means what it says.

There are plenty of people who can operate an aircraft safely who couldn't pass a 3rd. Diabetics are allowed to fly LSAs under daytime VFR, but the FAA doesn't allow them to fly six-place aircraft at night, because the risks are significantly different.

If it's been years since your kidney stones, you should be able to get at least a special issuance 3rd. It may take some paperwork, and it would be a good idea to join AOPA and take advantage of the aeromedical advisor program.

I believe we'll see private pilots OK'd to fly with a drivers license within a few years. There's no real statistical/safety basis to deny it.

I agree with you Paul. 61.53 (C)(2) Is the only part that applies to Sport Pilots (also glider pilots). It refers you back to paragraph (b) which says nothing about meeting 3rd class medical standards. It leaves it up to the person to self certify he is OK to fly.

[PW_Plack]

...It leaves it up to the person to self certify he is OK to fly.

I think the FAA actually did a pretty good job in crafting this wording. There are LOTS of things which will make a 3rd tough to get, but which do not preclude flying safely in Day/VFR.

[PW_Plack]

...I used to drink too little and that is what caused the formation of a stone. After drinking normally I've never developed another...An analogy would be a person that had high blood pressure from being obese and then losing the extra weight and now having normal blood pressure.

Tilden, all you need to do is get documentation from a doctor attesting to the cause, and vouching for no stones since, and you can get a 3rd. It's just a little more involved. Many people who get kidney stones develop them chronically for years afterward. If you get one lodged in just the right spot in flight, it can be incapacitating. That's why they need the extra documentation.

The obesity analogy is a bad one. Someone who's been obese and gets his weight back under control will pass a normal 3rd physical. If he flunked one earlier due to BP or A1C, that's a different issue, but he'd face the same documentation issues you do, and be able to get the medical.

AOPA is your best resource here. They do excellent work in this area.

[Psalms18:10]

After not reading much more than I don't want to pay the money to get a certificate,,, I must now say..

Sir,, You are the reason , the same as Vance stated that make gyro's look bad.. Bad attitude, money scaverger that doesn't want to live another day without its for free..

NOTHING comes for Free.. Do you work for nothing, do you not give your spouce or children adaquate funds to buy things with??

Im so damned tired of these poor mouthin asses that think gyros are for free.. Yes I have a BAD Attitude about it..

Go Jump out of a tree and see if you can float.. Hell No,, You had to climb it in the first place,, Thats called workin for something..

Thankyou Tim for printing your book.. But He wants it for Nothin..

Guess he got the computer for nuthin as well top post his desires..

The ones that know me.. Please excuse my ranting.. The Rest..Getta Life!!

ps.. You think Kidney Stones hurt!! U in for a real Shock!!

I hope your flying is much more rational that your rantings in this post. What makes you think I think everything should be free? I already said I didn't want to pay for a pilot license because I thought it was different than the gyro training. I have no plans to ever buy a fixed wing aircraft so why would I have wanted to pay for what I thought was training I would never use? When I found out the SP license training also served for the gyro training I said that was great and I planned to get a SP license. I simply didn't want to do training twice. Do you think getting a SP license is free? What makes you think I want Tim's book for free? I bought his book from Amazon for my iPad if you really must know. I also joined then PRA the first week I started even thinking about buying a gyro despite it very well being a year or two out before I even buy one. I made a donation this forum. I purchase a ground training course recommended in Tim's book despite him also listing free ground training resources. I purchased a flight simulator program for my Mac that has an gyrocopter so I can learn more about them (and have fun too.)

I'm sorry to say that so far the only thing I have come across that gives gyrocopters or the hobby a bad taste is your post. Perhaps you have more money stashed under your mattress than you know what to do with it and hence the arrogant and elitist attitude. I'm going to spend what it takes to get proper training and something affordable to start out in this hobby unless you want to buy me a shiny new MT 03 with all your excess money...

[Steve McGowan]

Whatever!! You need to know whom and what your talking about before you give the wrong impression..

Money doesn't buy you into heaven or outta hell.. Good training will prevent that..But as I've said,, Know whom and what your talking about before you start.

But thats just 30 years of gyro and helicopters talking.. It ain't worth a dime to anyone else till the ground comes up to meet Ya..

GoodLuck

[Psalms18:10]

Whatever!! You need to know whom and what your talking about before you give the wrong impression..

Money doesn't buy you into heaven or outta hell.. Good training will prevent that..

But thats just 30 years of gyro and helicopters talking.. It ain't worth a dime to anyone else till the ground comes up to meet Ya..

GoodLuck

In case you missed it, here is the last sentence from my post #15:

"Please bear with me guys as I learn the basics and say some dumb things along the way..."

I'm not too proud to admit I'm brand new to this and have a ways to go yet to get up to speed.

Well, are you shipping my MT 03? ;) BTW, ease off on the caffeine. Peace! :)

[Chuck Roberg]

Tilden, You need to meet and talk with Steve to really get to know him. He might have come down a little hard on you. But believe me he only has your safety in mind.

Steve is great instructor. He'll not only teach you how to fly a gyro but also to do it safely.

[SideKick]

You start beating up on Steve and your realy starting off on the wrong foot. As he said you should know who your talking to before you open mouth and insert foot.

[gilgsn]

Tilden, you might want to look into the Hornet, or as you mentioned, the Gyrobee. I am building a hornet, and plan on staying ultralight, with either an electric prerotator and Dragon Wings, or no prerotator and Sport Rotors. The lightest prerotator I have heard of is the one made by Avomania, and I might go for that.. I bought a Rotax 447, since I weigh less than 200Lbs, it should do. The MZ202 would probably be too heavy. The 201 would work, but then, I'm not sure it would have enough power. As far as plan-built goes, I do not know of other options, other than a straight Bensen. For factory made gyros, I'd say the Butterfly ultralight..

[Psalms18:10]

You start beating up on Steve and your realy starting off on the wrong foot. As he said you should know who your talking to before you open mouth and insert foot.

I "started" it?:confused:

Steve may be a great and knowledable guy and only wanting to help me out, but I couldn't tell from that post. With that said, I have pissed off my share of friends and family with emails that came out sounding way different than my intentions.

I think we covered this enough. Let's move on please.

[willisbr]

Tilden if Steve will allow me to butter up his post and augment just a tad, please don't insult wha these guys do and minimize gyro flight and ground training to having "bits and pieces" you will never use because you will never fly a fixed wing. Air is air. Wind is wind. Weather is weather. Aerodynamics is...you get the picture. Proper FLiGHT training is a must if you have a desire to take to the sky, even if it's five feet off the ground. Hell, people kill themselves on the ground driving at slower speeds than the lightest, most underpowered UL. The ones that speak the loudest and the abrasive are the ones that have seen the most people that get on this forum or come to a flyin with the attitude of what is the cheapest, quickest, and easiest way I can fly? With a recommendation here and there, a few months later they have read a news article of that person balled up in a gyro mess on the ground, deader than Cher's muffin. I'm sure you understand the bottom line, regardless of how nice or rough everyone is putting it...we want to be your flying buddy...but no one wants to see some tool go out and get hurt. But don't take my word for it, go talk to a CFI in person. All the forum posts and YouTube videos in the world aren't going to help you make good decisions. Befriend a CFI and demand nothing less than training that will set the foundation for becoming the best damn pilot the gyro community has ever seen. THAT would make Steve and friends very happy. And yes, he is a great guy of you ever get to meet him. End transmission.

[Steve McGowan]

As I have opened mouth and inserted foot more than I need to,, Please let me first say that nit doesn;'t matter whether it's LSP or CFI,, we all have the same situation..

IF YOU Don't ask questions Psam.. You'll never learn..

Please excuse my forwardness..

Thanks again..........Steve

[Psalms18:10]

Ok group hug. LOL. Steve, no hard feelings on my part. Probably if I knew you better you could have called me a stupid SOB and I probably would have said you are right.

I totally understand with the relatively low cost to enter this hobby, and the high risk for people who do not have proper training, that there are many accidents that could / should have been prevented. Those accidents can cast a poor light on the hobby and may jeopardize it with calls for more regulation, etc.

My hobby now involves flying a skill saw through the air with a 3000 RPM carbon fiber rotor blade (remote control helicopters) that can do a lot of damage to someone. We have seen many flying fields close down because newbies go out and do dumb things that endanger people. People complain and local politicians ban flying. So I can sympathize with the intent of your post as the risks here are much higher.

I should have known better and not responded as soon as I read the post. Will try not to:boink: next time. :)

[Steve McGowan]

Thats all you have time for,, Ya don't have time to think in the machine..

I've always been in wonder at the fellows that CAN Fly the remotes as quickly as they do.. It's like a dream..

I'd probably learn more from you Psalm than I'd ever teach you.. That is if an ole fart like me can learn anythng more..
Chuck tells me I've hit the ground too damned many times. Scar tissue won't mend!! hehehe

I agree!!

[Redbaron]

knowledge is power, no amount of instructor can teach that if knowledge isn't there! anyone can drive a car but if you tell me how the car works I can make it safer!:bored:



Ok group hug. LOL. Steve, no hard feelings on my part. Probably if I knew you better you could have called me a stupid SOB and I probably would have said you are right.

I totally understand with the relatively low cost to enter this hobby, and the high risk for people who do not have proper training, that there are many accidents that could / should have been prevented. Those accidents can cast a poor light on the hobby and may jeopardize it with calls for more regulation, etc.

My hobby now involves flying a skill saw through the air with a 3000 RPM carbon fiber rotor blade (remote control helicopters) that can do a lot of damage to someone. We have seen many flying fields close down because newbies go out and do dumb things that endanger people. People complain and local politicians ban flying. So I can sympathize with the intent of your post as the risks here are much higher.

I should have known better and not responded as soon as I read the post. Will try not to:boink: next time. :)

[Heron]

http://bible.cc/psalms/18-10.htm
It is not like Steve is saying, it is more like Tilden is looking for . . .
Training!
Paper work is optional.
Get to terms . . .and some endearment . . .
Go Tilden!
Heron

[Steve McGowan]

True Red,,, and I don't know Sh?T from Shinola.....
you can't buy experience.......

well maybe you can,, but that bitch went outta heat a long time ago.

Now If Ya wanna Talk Trash Red,, my Mentor,, Chuck B. can and will asssist you..

I'm just the dummy that flies that Black thang...

[willisbr]

:violin: "Devil went down to Georgia..." and Steve ran him out.

[Psalms18:10]

...I've always been in wonder at the fellows that CAN Fly the remotes as quickly as they do.. It's like a dream..

I'd probably learn more from you Psalm than I'd ever teach you.. That is if an ole fart like me can learn anythng more....

Sorry to disappoint you Steve, but I can't teach you to fly RC helicopters the way some guys such as Szabo do. My brain and fingers can't keep up with the heli to pull off this kind of flying (skip to the 3:00 minute mark in the video):

YouTube - Alan Szabo - Trex 600N Cracking (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuJuPjh92cA)

My RC heli flying is more scale flying. I do some stunts with my helicopter but they are similar to what you'd see done in a real helicopter such as the BO-105 in this video:

YouTube - Red Bull Helicopter does back flips! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGu45s1_QPU)

That is plenty to keep my adrenaline going with the heli. To relax I fly my fixed wing RC airplanes. They require much less concentration. I have a F-22 and F-18 pusher jet and a F-16 ducted fan jet I like to fly. I have a few other slower flying airplanes but seldom take them out unless I'm going flying with a friend that I'm teaching to fly.

Here are my flying toys to hold me over until I can get a real flying machine!

http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=77247&stc=1&d=1294945222

[SideKick]

I flew fixed wing RC for about 10 years and have seen many guys who I thought were realy good with a helicopter, but that guy was so awsome I have never seen anyone who could hold a candle to him.