unoffical poll tail and other options to the UFO helitruster

[animal]

Ok from the thread on the UFO in N.C. I have been asking for feedback and info on the UFO Helithruster.

So far a few issues have been brought up that seem like easy fixes.

Now this is an un official Poll,but for my own info I would like some feedback.

The way I look at it, is if we know what the Customer wants,then the better as a sales man I can suggest to the kit builder what will help it sell and be a safer machine.

Now that said I have no control over if this Changes will be looked into. but at least no one can then say that I as a sales Rep did not do my part to give the Customer what they wanted.

in the other thread paul pointed out the yaw stability at lower speed at idle .

when looking for videos I found this one with a triple tail, my understanding is it was a 1 off mod someone did.

YouTube - MyKop AVS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgyJVaKJhAg&feature=related)


YouTube - Autogyro Helithruster Two Seater/Side by side 100 mph. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGSCe1upK68)



I for one think something like it would be a good Option as it looks to put the Horz. stab back more and has the vertical stabs out in the slip stream.

what do you all think? would that be a good option if it could be tested more and offered?

Dual controls, I personnaly think a dual control even if no more then a T-bar would make it safer or nicer.

another issue was the gear box not being rated for the 160 h.p.

so what would you as a customer prefer a gear driven gear box. or the old tried and proven belt reduction drive.

choice of Engines such as a Yahama conversion or other engine of larger h.p. like even a Lycoming.

[StanFoster]

Tim- Just looking at that last UFO picture...in my opinion, that tail has to have as much authority if not more than my SparrowHawk. Its basically identical minus the little airdams...or winglets my SparrowHawk cabin had. But.....the air has to be coming around the UFO cabin much cleaer, than when it rounded my rather square rear corners of my SparrowHawk. It would wig wag a little...but I learned to tighten up my rudder cables...and kind of keep both feet tensioning the pedals. Any wig wag was soon cancelled in my brain as I became used to it.

Stan

[utahgyrocop]

I have decided that unless any gyro has a aircraft rated engine Luke a lycoming or a rotax, I will have a hard time with reliablity concerns.

Stay safe

[ultracruiser41]

Better pricing?

[ggfirestar]

what he said

[WHY]

HI Tim

The following statements are just personal opinions on my part and keep in mind that I am not a "certified" engineer by any means.

First I think the designer has done a great job on the aerodynamics of the body , giving excellent air flow into the prop although to achieve this the body has very little crash protection due to the chosen method of construction (moulded plastic). The gear appear to be well designed but the nose wheel is going to be more suited to hard surface than sod due to it's length. The tail is where the real catch -22 comes in. although the body is very clean, I feel that with a gusty cross wind at idle or engine out or at approach landing speed the that positive yaw control will be questionable.

A difinitive solution to this problem may not be easily achive without major design changes. The "natural" form for a side by side design body is the twin boom twin rudder tail configuration such as the Xenon uses, one tail surface is always in the slipstream regardless or any yaw so no hunting starts up. Last, with this gyro being in this price class and catagorey, I doubt that a "converted " engine will market well unless it might be something like the Viking Engine, which has really been built for the aircraft intended use.

The UFO will face some very hard competition from ESTABLISHED gyros already in the market place.

Tony

[Vance]

I am not a viable purchase prospect so my opinion has no place in a market survey. I prefer an open tandem.

Trying to put 160 four cylinder four stroke horsepower through a 110 horsepower four cylinder two stroke gear box may not be a good idea.

It depends on how well engineered the gearbox is.

If is well engineered it will likely not work out.

Sometimes off the shelf parts or future plans cause a gearbox to be under rated.

Without knowing where the center of gravity is it would be hard to imagine what the configuration of the empennage should be. I suspect that the air is pretty turbulent by the time it reaches the rudder.

It would help to tuft the body to understand the air flow.

A propeller sucks so even though the converging angle is a little steep it may do all right.

The one I saw fly at Bensen Days didn’t sound like the propeller had clean air to work with.

I feel a well designed gear box would be preferable to a toothed belt.

It seems like the controls are a personal choice. I leave my passenger stick out most of the time.

I would prefer a Lycoming IO-360 to an auto conversion.

Thank you, Vance

[animal]

Ok just an Update, the gearbox on it now is a gearbox of it's own design very strong.

Also thanks to this Poll Dual controls are going to be designed.

so your voices are being heard, other Engines like the Lycoming can be looked into. but you do realize these Engines new are not cheap and will drive the Price higher should you want this as an option.
will update you more as I find out more, but your input is being heard.

Have a great Holiday.

[Chopper Reid]

I know this sounds like sour grapes but to me, the UFO is better shelved totally and start off on a new design. I doubt the quick fixes are going to change the basic bad traits this thing has.
So far, this gyro has proved to be not far short of plain dangerous and when you consdier you can have a magni /mto /ela /sportcopter etc etc that all have pretty good safety record, why for goodness sakes would you want a UFO?

[Chopper Reid]

I have decided that unless any gyro has a aircraft rated engine Luke a lycoming or a rotax, I will have a hard time with reliablity concerns.

Stay safe

Thats a big statement mate ! How many hours per year are you going to fly for ??

[troed@aon.at]

I am following the UFO-development now for 5 years on internet and there seemed to be no major improvements, nor is it stated somewhere how many are REALLY flying.

I also remember the tragedy of last years lethal crash in NZ (Steve Chubbs, Nov. 2009) which never was followed up precisely on the cause of the crash.

Following the arguments of the postings here by experienced pilots and constructors I deeply agree that at least the entire tail section has to be redesigned.

[OzyRuss]

Reduce cabin volume 10%, extend rear keel with tri tail on, external fuel tank, flexy mast (RAF )
tried and proven control systems, engine options ( 912 / 914 / soob with autoflite redrive,dual controls, stick lock, dry weight 350kg max, pre rotator and them other goodies..............turn key under $90k

[C. Beaty]

A tall tail with cruciform horizontal, if properly implemented, is in every respect superior to a keel mounted triple tail. It eliminates throttle-yaw coupling and the ensuing toe dance during the takeoff run. It mostly eliminates propeller torque roll.

Weathercock stability is improved by centering tail surfaces in the propeller slipstream. That’s because a propeller is not a rocket engine; its slipstream reflects the outside world.

All-flying tails, tall or short, don’t work unless equipped with anti-servo tabs. Without an anti-servo tab, an all-flying tail becomes a tail wagger ready to swap ends unless the pilot keeps his feet firmly planted on the rudder pedals.

[Vance]

A tall tail with cruciform horizontal, if properly implemented, is in every respect superior to a keel mounted triple tail. It eliminates throttle-yaw coupling and the ensuing toe dance during the takeoff run. It mostly eliminates propeller torque roll.

Weathercock stability is improved by centering tail surfaces in the propeller slipstream. That’s because a propeller is not a rocket engine; its slipstream reflects the outside world.

All-flying tails, tall or short, don’t work unless equipped with anti-servo tabs. Without an anti-servo tab, an all-flying tail becomes a tail wagger ready to swap ends unless the pilot keeps his feet firmly planted on the rudder pedals.

Hello Mr. Beaty,

Having flown both I prefer a keel mounted horizontal stabilizer particularly in simulated engine out landings.

I prefer an articulated rudder to a full flying rudder even with an anti-servo tab.

I have not flown a triple tail so I don’t know what that is like.

Sport Copter appears to prefer a triple tail to a cruciform empennage.

I flew a modified RAF with a cruciform all flying tail and no anti-servo tab and she did not wag her tail.

I flew a SparrowHawk with an all flying tail and an anti-servo tab and she wagged her tail at speed.

I don’t understand why my experience is not aligned with your declarations.

I would be grateful if you would help me to be confused on a higher level.

Thank you, Vance

[C. Beaty]

The science is not complicated, Vance.

Here’s why an immersed tail is more effective:
76615
One of the first things I learned from my Mac attack days is that tail immersion is critical with minimal tails. My old Bensen had excellent yaw stability, always strongly weathercocking as long as the Mac was running. When the Mac quit, yaw control was iffy.

I’ll respond to anti-servo tabs at a later time.

[Vance]

The science is not complicated, Vance.

Here’s why an immersed tail is more effective:
76615
One of the first things I learned from my Mac attack days is that tail immersion is critical with minimal tails. My old Bensen had excellent yaw stability, always strongly weathercocking as long as the Mac was running. When the Mac quit, yaw control was iffy.

I’ll respond to anti-servo tabs at a later time.

Thank you Mr. Beaty,

I was speaking specifically of the horizontal stabilizer.

I found the effect of the horizontal stabilizer with a cruciform empennage to be inconsistent going from full power to engine idle.

In my experience the difference in the response can be manifest.

I prefer a more consistent response to my control requests.

The flat plate horizontal stabilizer on the Predator seems to provide good dampening of most perturbations and there is very little change in my perception of her response to pitch excursions with large changes in power settings.

I also use the ground effect of the horizontal stabilizer to judge my distance from the ground.

On the Predator it sort of kicks the tail up when the horizontal stabilizer is around 4 feet off the ground at a positive angle of attack after I have begun my round out. It helps me to know when to initiate the landing flair.

Thank you, Vance

[ms80831]

I have decided that unless any gyro has an aircraft rated engine like a Lycoming or a Rotax, I will have a hard time with reliability concerns.

Stay safe

Ditto.....

[C. Beaty]

I was speaking specifically of the horizontal stabilizer.Both horizontal and vertical tails are governed by the same rules; what’s good for one is good for the other. Weathercock stability is just as important in the vertical plane as in the horizontal plane.

I think it’s noteworthy that the only 3 gyroplanes designed by engineers have horizontal stabilizers centered (or nearly so) in the propeller slipstream. The Xenon, the Genesis and the Arrow Copter.

Also, Cierva used differential tailplane incidence to balance propeller torque, impossible without the horizontal stabilizer being in the propeller slipstream.

[Vance]

Thank you Mr. Beaty.

One of the things I didn’t like about the full flying cruciform empennage on the SparrowHawk and the Modified RAF was the different response to the control inputs when power is removed or suddenly applied.

I felt the SparrowHawk in particular would change its control response if I would add power to cushion an inelegant landing. Add that to its tendency to pitch nose up and yaw right with a sudden application of power and I found it disquieting.

A power off descent did not feel as pitch stable in the lower speed ranges as we traversed the thermals in the SparrowHawk.

The Predator with its horizontal stabilizer well below the propeller stream has little tendency to change its response to control inputs as I change power settings.

She seems to manage turbulence well.

The Predator doesn’t seem to have torque roll when I apply her 300 plus foot pounds of torque.

Her Vertical stabilizer and rudder end well below the propeller slip stream.

I would like to understand this better because I would like to have similar flight characteristics with Mariah Gale and we are working on the empennage now.

Mariah Gale has more volume than the Predator in both the vertical stabilizer and horizontal stabilizer and Mariah Gale is using a NACA 63-012 airfoil instead of a tube and fabric flat plate. The Vertical stabilizer is slightly shorter.

Thank you, Vance

[C. Beaty]

Don’t you think, Vance, that placing tail surfaces in the immediate wake of a double wide Port-A-John might represent an anomaly that ought not to be used as the basis of your theory of stabilization?

Most every flying machine that I can think of has the horizontal stabilizer centered in the propeller slipstream; Cubs to P–51s.
76624
Flat plates are nearly as good as thick airfoils where the aspect ratio is close to unity. The designers of Cubs and Aeroncas weren’t stupid. With low aspect ratio, flow around the ends of an airfoil equalizes pressure between top and bottom, preventing stall. A ping-pong paddle will have about the same lift whether flat plate or 12% thick airfoil.

[Master Roda]

I just love this aircraft...it's a delight to fly.

[Vance]

Don’t you think, Vance, that placing tail surfaces in the immediate wake of a double wide Port-A-John might represent an anomaly that ought not to be used as the basis of your theory of stabilization?

Most every flying machine that I can think of has the horizontal stabilizer centered in the propeller slipstream; Cubs to P–51s.
76624
Flat plates are nearly as good as thick airfoils where the aspect ratio is close to unity. The designers of Cubs and Aeroncas weren’t stupid. With low aspect ratio, flow around the ends of an airfoil equalizes pressure between top and bottom, preventing stall. A ping-pong paddle will have about the same lift whether flat plate or 12% thick airfoil.

Hello Mr. Beaty,

Thank you for your guidance.

Since I am putting the empennage on a single wide Port-A-John I felt that a double wide Port-A-John was a reasonable place to draw a conclusion.

It has been my observation that many gyroplanes lack aerodynamic elegance.

Mariah Gale will have a cowl over the engine but in my opinion the air will still be turbulent behind an idling propeller.

The air is particularly turbulent ahead of the vertical stabilizer and rudder on the Predator with the propeller idling.

It is my feeling that the lift curve of a flat plate even with an aspect ratio of close to unity is different than a NACA 63-012 airfoil, particularly at low angles of attack. Have I misconstrued the information?

It is my feeling that a NACA 63-012 airfoil would have lower drag than a flat plate. Have I misconstrued the information?

Thank you, Vance

[C. Beaty]

Here you go, Vance, an 0012 plotted at aspect ratios of 1, 5 and infinity.

At low aspect ratios, lift doesn’t amount to much because the air runs around the ends and equalizes pressure, top to bottom, preventing stalls.

At zero angle of attack, drag is purely wetted surface drag. A thin plate will have the least drag.

***
Airflow is nearly always turbulent by the time it reaches tail surfaces on any sort of aircraft. That’s not a deal breaker. What you must avoid is separated flow where there is really no flow, the air is being sucked along with the machine. Same as you get drafting a semitrailer

[Vance]

Thank you Mr. Beaty,

What you are saying is that I am wasting my time with airfoils and a flat plate tube and fabric empennage would work just as well.

I have a hard time imagining the air moving around that much and not using energy.

I have been wrong before.

I will be wrong again.

I feel confused on a higher level now.

My horizontal stabilizer will stay on the bottom.

Thank you, Vance

[C. Beaty]

BTW Vance, in wind tunnel testing of a ¼ scale model of a Magni on behalf of the University of Glasgow, the dynamic pressure at the keel mounted horizontal stabilizer was found to be only ½ of freestream dynamic pressure. That means, for that location, a fair amount of air is being dragged along by the machine.

[Chopper Reid]

Having flown both sorts of tails, the back as far as possible is way ahead of the close coupled tall tail.

[Chopper Reid]

I just love this aircraft...it's a delight to fly.

The Flying Doctor organization in Australai has a few of the PC 12's ?? and talking to a PC 12 pilot who has a lot ofexpereince in many of the twins says the PC 12 is way ahead on most counts and he loves it !!
He told me the gliding distance from 30,000 feet and it was something awsome !

[PTKay]

I am following the UFO-development now for 5 years on internet and there seemed to be no major improvements, nor is it stated somewhere how many are REALLY flying.

I also remember the tragedy of last years lethal crash in NZ (Steve Chubbs, Nov. 2009) which never was followed up precisely on the cause of the crash.

Following the arguments of the postings here by experienced pilots and constructors I deeply agree that at least the entire tail section has to be redesigned.

I can only 100% agree with the above statement, with the exception, I am following it for over 6 years.
In the meantime, the Xenon starting business in app. same time
as UFO has sold over 120 units with no serious accident and no fatalities.

I see effectively NO CHANCE for UFO.

[animal]

I had to sit back and just wait some.

But being on the inside, I knew of some things in the works that was going to make the UFO a Great machine,but it had not been tested.

this is why I started the Poll, I wanted to check the market of what the buyer wanted.

Phoenix Rotorcraft is proud to announce that your input has been heard and taken to heart.

The UFO now has a new tested Triple tail that is proving so far to be very stable ,with any luck this tail will be on the new demo Ship to be displayed at Bensen days 2011!
Also Jeff has heard and requests for Dual controls and that 2 is on the Drawing board.

here is a Video of the new triple tail test flown this week Jan.11,2011.

Enjoy.

YouTube - The test flight of a new UFO autogyro variant at Tokoroa Airfield (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BoNcLVShMg)

[animal]

Well once again, you asked for it, and you got it.

Here are pics fresh off the press of the new dual controls for the New updated UFO Helithruster that are going to be tested.

I am really looking forward to seeing this machine evolve to a nice machine for the US market, and hope to see several flying in the US someday.

I will keep everyone posted as the updates come in.

[brett s]

That's probably the scariest looking set of controls I've ever seen.

[animal]

That's probably the scariest looking set of controls I've ever seen.
Please keep in mind this is a prototype, I am sure the final customer version will be improved.

this is merely posted to show that your suggestions are being heard and acted on.