Lw-5

[MattPearson]

Progressing towards gyro noises!

[MattPearson]

x-bracing for squaring up the frame

[Vance]

Nice job Matt, Your table looks very nice and I see you are working hard to make things straight and square. I have found it usefull to tac in at least four places per joint to keep things from moving when I finish weld the joints, and finish weld one third of the joint at a time. You can pull it back straight after you have finish welded it but it leaves built in stress. Keeping a frame straight and square in the begining makes everything go so much smoother. Even a small error in the begining can grow into major hassels later. Please don't take this as a criticisum, only what has worked best for me. Your tacs look just a little hot. You should be proud of your achievments, It looks very good. I would have hired you when I had my welding shop. Thank you, Vance

[MattPearson]

Up to about 40 hours of very enjoyable construction so far! ER80S-D2 is awesome rod to work with. I am using .045.
http://tigdepot.com/products/p28.html

[Heron]

Hey Matt . . .great job! (as usual :) )
I see that is getting cold already . . . :(
MIss you all!
Heron

[Dean_Dolph]

General FAA LW5 Questions
Falling into the Light Sport category:............Unfortunately for a lot of people, Ron isn't offering a kit let alone a LSA certified one. Maybe he will in the future. I'm not sure but I don't believe plans built aircraft are covered under the LSA.

There will be many experimentals that match the LSA specs but will stay experimental because the manufacturer hasn't certified them. If a person buys a certified ELSA (Experimental Light Sport Aircraft) kit then they won't be asking these questions because the aircraft must be built strictly according to the manufacturers plans.

It is my understanding that there is a process that the builder has to go thru to satisfy the manufactuer before the machine can be signed off as a ELSA. The reason behind this is to make sure that a owner built aircraft will meet the same standards as a factory built machine. I believe the factory is still liable for safety and performance of the aircraft even though they don't build it. If this is true then it makes one wonder just how many ELSA kits will be available.

[pwendell]

Dean,

I know you know this, but I just wanted to make it clear for others that a Sport Pilot CAN legally fly an Amateur built, experimental gyroplane as long as it meets the criteria of a light sport aircraft. In other words, as long as an LW5 has a max gross weightof less than 1320 pounds and does not have a ****pit adjustable propeller, it can be flown by a sport pilot with the proper ratings, or a private pilot with a rotorcraft-gyroplane rating and a driver's license instead of a medical, in day VFR conditions.

[MattPearson]

Hey Guys,
I don't intend to be rude, but you are hijacking my thread. I already reposted once before because of this. Thanks for your consideration.

[Dean_Dolph]

Matt, I understand your frustration and have had threads hijacked also. I have started a thread to address the hijacking. So, if you have any thoughts on how to minimize the problem (I think there is zero chance of eliminating it!) you can make your comments there.

[richard lidke]

Hello Matt. Glad to see a fellow Littlewinger moving forward. Im celebrating one year of part time work this weekend. My friend has just completed upholstering my seats, I'm to pick them up this friday morning. My airframe is basically complete, except for a few minor details. Next to finish up the details, then start on the mast and rotorheat. Keep up the good work, and nice of you to share with us with the great pictures of your progress. Littlewing Booster Rich. :) :)

[MattPearson]

Rich,
Which models are you building?

[richard lidke]

:) :) Hi Matt. Moving right along, we are building three LW 2+2 units. Got my seats yesterday, they turned out very nice. Completing some little odds and ends to make sure my cables are good and secure where they attach to the frame then run to the joystick. Added a cap piece to the "L" bracket to make sure the cables can't come up out of the slots that they are secured into. Made a single piece spacer to hold the center distance of 1" between the two forward cables, figures to be 0.574 inches long. This is with a washer and two seal halves on the cable end ball joints between the two joystick throw ends, then two more washers (one on each of the ball joints) and two more seal halves on the outside balljoint faces directly adjacent to the throws, with a washer on the outside of each of the throws, of course appropiately castel nutted and keyed on one end, with the bolt head only on the other end. Cables came out exactly on center distance with the bracket as planned. Did the same thing with three spacers on the rear joystick cable bulkhead connections. Came out right on center again--Bingo! Hope you are having as good a time as we are. We worked til 10:30 last night, and Jim managed to get both horizontal stabilizers tacked up for his airframe. Have a good Littlewing Day and Tailwinds friend. Booster Rich :) :)

[Ruidoso Ron]

Rich, is that a short, or a long frame?
Ron

[richard lidke]

:D :D Guys, all three littlewing boosters are building the 2+2 long frame. I asked Ron which would be better when I got the plans, and said I liked the long frame from a stability standpoint. He suggested I build the long frame based on just that comment. The difference in cost is negligible. The time involved is irrelevant if this is what you want to do, and it isn't much different one way or the other. By the way, Ron's plans are for all of his variations, including the ultralight, so be sure to sort out which one's you aren't using, otherwise you will be leafing through the same stuff that you won't be using over and over and over again. Food for thought. Booster Rich. :rolleyes:

[Screw]

Screw-In

On the ground, I think the difference between the long and short frame is ground handling during takeoff and landings. The long frame should be a little more forgiving. Speaking of forgiveness, how much is really needed when the takeoff and landing speeds are as low as they are?

In the air, I would imagine the short frame is a better performer being smaller and the lever being closer in, is probably a bit quicker on the pitch.

I could be wrong, but what did you expect? :D

Screw-Out

[mcbirdman]

Don't want to hijack thread John - just rethink lever..... longer lever more leverage and more effective, more stable.

Matt How soon are you looking/anticipating order for vw? I am not ready yet or anything just wondering if we can maybe coincide the orders for the deal. Don't need exact or anything just trying to plan since it will be a sizable amount compared to all the nicklels and dimes we are spending on smaller parts.... Keep up the good work you are getting there..... jtm

Btw, when you go to order the cowl..... keep in mind that you will have a cowl that is like 18 inches at the back of the cowl. Because your nose tapers in the front it might make sense to add another tube on the bottom both sides so that the cowl will meet up with fabric without the cowl hanging below the airframe. Just another hint..... Take care get back to work :)

[MattPearson]

Hey James,
I was planning on ordering the engine sometime after Christmas, maybe Jan or Feb. I am open really as to the exact time. I would definitely like to coordinate the purchase.
Thanks for the tips!

[mcbirdman]

Ok Matt, I don't know when for me either. It sounds like you might be ready a little sooner than I was thinking in that I know that there is still alot of other things to do. When it gets down to a a couple weeks or so that you would think you are going to talk to them let me know and I will see what I can do. Mid December I am #40 in the Us to take delivery of the new Fuji s3 pro camera and it will temporarily hurt the budget. I am hoping we can work it out so it helps us both. I'll keep working the long hours in the meantime to scrape up more. At least it is the largest remaining expense hurdle. After that we are looking at blades and props which are not cheap, but will seem like it after this.... :) Keep in touch we'll do what we can here, jtm

Also, last night I put the seats in the frame. I don't know if you have the square cross bar support for the bottom instrument panel installed yet. I sat in the frame and have to tell you that it felt very tight getting in and out. I opted for the optional raised bar as shown in the plans and am glad I did because I cant even swing sideways my knees to exit without raising my knees even higher (closer to my chest) to swing out the door.
It is not comfortable and I don't know what I would do if I had not have raised the bar a couple inches. I realize that I am 6' but I don't think that is all that unique. Sitting there my knees are just below the bar, and not much room to move. I suppose I shouldn't worry since eventually I will be just using the back seat but I am trying to take my passengers into consideration. Not sure if it would be ok to arc the bar at the sides so that there is more knee room on the sides but think it is worth trying it out before you get that far. It surprised me how tight it is in the front seat but seems fixable at this point. jtm

[MattPearson]

I am in no hurry and am more than happy to wait for you!

[Airgasm]

Yeah Gidday! I have been watching your thread and I am interested in your progress. Can you provide an update at all. I lhave ordered my 4130 and should have the jig built by the time the material arrives, then I am into it.

[MattPearson]

Getting closer. Some great work by Alan Cheatham!

[MattPearson]

last shot for this update

[GyroRon]

Are you going to fill the insides of the tubes with Lin seed oil when your done welding?

[mcbirdman]

Matt, Looks good ! great progress. Now, about the door..... ;)

[MattPearson]

We figured it would be easier to weld everything up and then cut the door out. Don't know about the linseed oil yet. We will be doing some kind of anti corrosion treatment for sure.
I am still in awe of how light weight this type of construction is!

[WindRyder06]

Bro,
You are lookin' good!!! Now that you have snow in Texas everything is on hold but the LW5..... "Ice Age"



Chris

[Brent_Brown]

We got some good oil that is safe to weld around and it works as a great protection. I will look for the name.

[Jim]

For what it is worth:
Years ago when I built a Cub-clone, I was advised to drill small, 1/8 inch holes in the centre of where the weld would be. (Attached photo) That was good advice for two reasons: As one welds the air in the tube heats up, expands and can bubble through the side of the weld, creating a weak spot. The little hole inside the tube gives the air somewhere to escape. When the air cools off, the hole give a way for air to return. A vacuum is not created inside the tube. It is also good for it creates a hole for linseed oil to penetrate after the welding is done.

In my case I heated the linseed oil up (becomes much easier to flow) and then pumped it with a compressor through the frame. Here the 1/8 inch holes came in handy, creating ways for the oil to flow through all the tubes. One can check where the oil goes: Warm linseed oil heats tubes that are penetrated. After blocking all openings I turned the frame over many times and in many directions.

At last I removed the blockings, let the frame stand on its tail and let the oil drain out. Almost all the oil drained out over the next two weeks. What a mess! And yet: now, 20 years later, I still find no corrosion on the frame.

This exercise added almost no extra weight to the frame.

Jim

[Caribean_gyro]

I have used LPS3 HArd coat in my gyro chrome molly. it really displace the air. Also I use balck bear oil in the rudder cables and this was great they are really impregnated with this oil and when it dry it dont leave a sticky feeling. watter dont want to get in.

hopefully in 2005 I will be able to buy and start also a LW, but I like the radial engine looks. ANy one out there with experience with this Radial engine
ChuckP

[MattPearson]

http://wartowne.com/Photos/Little%20Wing/LW5%20fuselage%20tail.JPG

[MattPearson]

http://wartowne.com/Photos/Little%20Wing/LW5%20fuselage.JPG

[MattPearson]

http://wartowne.com/Photos/Little%20Wing/LW5%20inverted.JPG

[scottessex]

Cool! A gyro on a spit! Should make painting and wireing easier.

[Brian Jackson]

So the BBQ goes inside the cage?

[Airgasm]

Matt, it looks very impressive. Tell me, is the frame still only tacked together or have you completely welded some sections?

Regards, Barry

[MattPearson]

Only a couple of the "stacked" areas are finish welded at the moment. The finish welding will be done this week!! My parts should be in from the water-jet cutters and we will have her on her gear very soon.

[Rotornut]

Matt, Bet your getting excited now! Nice. Love those Little Wings. MJ :)

[MattPearson]

Making airplane noises! Can you see the joy on my goofy mug?

[CLS447]

Nice work Matt ! That is really "building" not assembling. I don't envy the task but should be worth every minute! Keep on posting !

[PW_Plack]

Wow, a sleeper cab...air horns and CB radio coming soon? :)

Matt, she looks terrific! It's going to be fun in a year or two to see six, eight, ten Little Wings in a row on a fly-in flightline, with Ron Herron beaming like a proud Dad nearby!

[Brent_Brown]

Matt what is it doing waiting for paint?

[Cobra]

Nice project-

How much does the framework weigh? Is it all steel tubing- what diameter/wall thickness? Im curious to see how the mast is attached...

[MattPearson]

Most of the frame is .035 wall 5/8" 4130. Tube sizes also include 1/2", 3/8", 1/4", and 1" ranging from .035 to .049 wall.
The mast attaches to the top 1" cross tube. It is basically saddled around that tube with an aluminum plug bolted through a 1x2 redundant mast same as most all other gyros. The mast is the supported by four braces the rear two of which are dampened with a rubber donut.
The main design flaw for the Little Wing is that a lot of welds are held in tension with regard to the mast and over time this could be a problem, but there are ways to reinforce those areas with more metal.
The reality is, it may never be a problem, it's just not the proper thing to have a weld in tension.

[MattPearson]

As you see the frame in the pics, it weighs 44 lbs!! Pretty cool!

[chuter]

Speaking only as a shade-tree erector set engineer, that's twice lately I've read about it being "not a good thing" to put welds in tension; of course that makes sense, but it seems there are a LOT of aircraft out there with welds in tension.

So I've got to ask; is this sort of like telling someone their shoe is laced wrong? Maybe it's not by the shoe-lacing book, but if the shoe doesn't fall off, it must be ok, yes? :confused:

I took an EAA welding workshop and the instructor pointed to an airframe and made the point that it was so overbuilt it's silly. He said any one of the welds would hold the plane in the air just fine.

I know.......fatigue, vibration, yada yada.

[et3dotcom]

To avoid tension on a weld use a shear gusset.

daryl oster

[MattPearson]

We are definitely going to use some gusseting at those areas to provide for long term fatigue resistance. We are actually talking about using some tension cables at the corners as well.
The Little Wing frame was adapted from the Preceptor aircraft , so I am sure there were compromises, but as you mentioned, it may be overbuilt as it is.

I am not an engineer, but I do read, have smarter friends, and ask lots of questions! :)

[MattPearson]

As of today, I am making plans to get this engine shipped to me.

1.3L Suzuki Raven-Rotor conversion. 2.26:1 redrive, fuel injected, turbo charged, water cooled, 115+ hp and 300 ft-lbs of torque at the hub @ 3500 RPMs. The pictures are of the actual engine. 183 lbs less water, oil and radiator.

I will be using a 74-76 inch Inflight Adj Ivo Medium.

[GyroRon]

I saw that engine listed for sale on Barnstormers. Let us know how it works out Matt.

[ben]

matt sweet looking motor. hey matt how ya been pard??

[RHerron]

Matt said:

<<<The main design flaw for the Little Wing is that a lot of welds are held in tension with regard to the mast and over time this could be a problem, but there are ways to reinforce those areas with more metal.
The reality is, it may never be a problem, it's just not the proper thing to have a weld in tension.


Matt,

I would assume that a "flaw" is something that wasn't considered and is subject to failure. No worry about any welds in tension....in case you didn't notice, there are multiple load paths. Silver-solder would probably be adequate to hold it all together considering the contact area and you could hacksaw through half (or more) of the tubing before it would fail to support the relatively minor load it will experience inflight.

The mast and bracing is designed to pivot around the hardpoints and will not accumulate fatique as would a stiffer structure, certainly not as much as rigid-bolted-on masts that are typically used.

The "weakest links" in this system are the attachment plates at each end of the mast braces (doglegs are inherently weaker than straight) and the aluminum clamp braces that attach the front side-braces to the mast. If you want to beef it up, do it there if it makes you feel better.

Stiffening it up and, particularly, adding cable bracing is not the right thing to do. Not unless you need some extra stick-shake.

Wrap-around "finger" straps are better than gusset plates for the purpose of reinforcing junction members in tension and are frequently used on control surface hinges to provide a fail-safe attachment.

[MattPearson]

I changed my mind again. I decided not to get the Suzuki. I am going to use an O-200 with the light weight options. I just bought a crank and am on the hunt for a tagged crank case. Email me if you have any parts for sale.

[RHerron]

Matt,

Good choice!

[MattPearson]

I was hoping you would think so! :)

[GyroRon]

Darn.... I made a big deal trying to get John Stevens to go with a O-200 or a smaller Lycoming and I thought pretty much everybody but me thought it was a bad idea... ?

Matt sounds like a good choice to me. Try looking on Barnstormers and Trade a Plane. I have seen recently zero time since major overhauled O-200s complete with all extras go for well under 10 grand. Just a bare engine majored should be able to be bought for around 6-7 grand. Or just buy a mid time engine for 3 to 5 grand and fly it till the hours are alot higher.

[GyroRon]

Oh, forgot to add... I much prefer the Lycomings to the Conts. Less Carb icing and seems like cheaper parts and more plentiful supply of parts and spares. Plus they all make more power! Can never have too much power.

[Caribean_gyro]

In the 100HP and lower continental seems to be the choice. but betwen 100 and 180 lycoming have the market. above this continental is fighting strong in the 240 hp .

I personally like lycoming. But for a tractor design I like vintage looks so the radial engine if my prefer. now that is if money is there

chuckP

[MattPearson]

So far I have a crankshaft, camshaft, and case...and the hunt goes on.
It's amazing how many people are putting together O-200's for some flying contraption.

[MattPearson]

Here are some trial fit pics of the landing gear. So far, so good.
The long strips on the axle are brake anchors for the Azusa drum brakes and also an anchor for wheel pants. I have 10 inch axles in place right now, but they are not long enough, so I am going to order some 5/8" 4130 and make my own axles. Since the brakes are anchored to the welded strip and there is no point in drilling another hole to pin the axles, I am going to thread both ends of the axles and lock put nuts on both ends.

[MattPearson]

I modified the rudder to accomodate an anti-servo/ trim tab. Obviously, the lower trailing portion of the tail will be the movable surface.

[Mayfield]

I modified the rudder to accomodate an anti-servo/ trim tab. Obviously, the lower trailing portion of the tail will be the movable surface.

Matt,

Your welding looks beautiful. I greatly admire the way your ship is going together.

Is the cut out for a rudder trim tab?

Jim

[REDHORSE556CES]

C'mon Matt!!! No Rotec!?!?!?! :D

[MattPearson]

Can you tell I'm enjoying this?

[Heron]

You did get it on its feet! You Rock!
(Took lesson yesterday with Larry, he says I will make it!) :D
heron

[Greg Mitchell]

Hey Matt,
Looks great and it sure looks like your enjoying the process. I'd be keen to catch up with you and check out LW in July, arriving Tx around the 9th.
Mitch.

PS I need an arm chair/recliner just like that. ;)

[GyroRon]

Matt, can I reccomend a Fertilizer treatment on the lawn? ;)

Seriously, the gyro looks good, can't wait to see how it turns out in the end.

[MattPearson]

Here are some pics of the hard attach points for the control system. The bearing blocks are delrin.

[KenSandyEggo]

Hey Matt, I hope you take that wreath off the door. Christmas is sort of past.

[MattPearson]

We're just trying to be prepared for the next go'round! :D

[MattPearson]

and our lovely model is ....

Mr. Alan Cheatham! :D

The front seat is a little short on leg room, but manageable. The back seat is cavernous!

[richard lidke]

Hey Matt. We noticed the same thing here. Jim checked in with Ron to see if he could put the cross brace a litter higher to clear his knees better. He has exceptionally long legs, and he did have plenty of room in the back seat, as you said "cavernous"!

Hope you are having as much fun as I am building. Just ordered my Matco 6" tailwheel today. If you order the dash 1 from Wicks it is a 8", so you only need the model without the dash, and it saves you 50 dollars off the price too!

Best Regards, Booster Rich :) :)

[okikuma]

Hi Matt,

It's been 5 1/2 years since your last post. Did you ever complete your Little Wing?

Wayne

[Alan_Cheatham]

Hi Matt,

It's been 5 1/2 years since your last post. Did you ever complete your Little Wing?

Wayne

Not Matt but Alan, the "lovely model" in the above pictures and someone who invested 350 hrs of construction and welding on this LW.

No, Matt decided to cancel the project and sold the LW to a EMT pilot who later had it for sale on Barnstormers still in the same state of construction. Don't know what has become of it after that.

.

[barnstorm2]

I wish LW's were available in kits. I think they would be the hottest selling kit.

.

[mcbirdman]

It is too bad. You were well on your way and were doing a beautiful job. Must be hard to work so darn hard on it to see it sold. I can relate to that. Really hated to see this happen to you.

[Alan_Cheatham]

I wish LW's were available in kits. I think they would be the hottest selling kit.

You could and may still be able to order a prebuilt fuselage from Ron Herron, but even so Littlewings, especially successfully flying ones, are few, I don't think Ron ever had enough takers to warrant a kit. In fact, other than Ron's radial LW, I don't know of any other LW's currently operating on a regular basis.

The main problem with any two place LW is the only suitable engine is the expensive Rotax 914, and few are going to spend that type of money on a gyro. I also feel that any commercially successful tractor gyro kit would need to have a structure that would allow easier shipping, the freight costs on a LW must be enormous.

.

[Kevin_Richey]

While Ron still has pre-welded fuselages listed for sale on his Little Wing website, he doesn't have them for sale. He wrote back to me last fall that he can't supply them as he is too busy in his life making a living to do them for a price that amounts to him welding it up for free.

[barnstorm2]

The main problem with any two place LW is the only suitable engine is the expensive Rotax 914, and few are going to spend that type of money on a gyro.

Magnis, MT-03's and some Xenons seem to sell just fine as with 912/914's.

Even with a pre-welded frame there is still a great deal of work that goes into building them from scratch.

.