Butterfly to bring back gyroglider training

[GyroDoug]

Just an FYI for everyone. Larry called me the other day to let me know that he has decided to bring Gyro Glider training back into more use. With the new line of Ultralight Gyro available now and the severe need for more training options he has decided to develop a Gyro Glider training program. He has a dealer in Texas that is working with him to get the details worked out and then he plans to encourage all of his dealers to make this available for people.

While it is primarily being designed to give another training option to our new Ultralight buyers, it will be available to anyone that wants to use it and I believe it will be a great option. I think having glider training available after a chapter meeting would be a great way to get more people to come to a chapter meeting. IT would also be a very controlled way to get a new person started or to help get them interested in getting a powered gyro. I don't want to get into too much detail at this point as the details are still being finalized but soon I should have more information available on this topic.

[RotoPlane]

Outstanding decision Larry! You know....this Larry guy must be a really smart fella.....;).

[Heron]

Very interesting!
Keep us on the loop at all times.
Thanks
Heron

[GyroDoug]

Outstanding decision Larry! You know....this Larry guy must be a really smart fella.....;).

Larry Neal has a lot of years of experience with gyroplanes and fixed wings. He is an experienced test pilot and a really competent pilot. But most of all, he is a very inspired and ingenious designer that is dedicated to changing the flying world. We really are fortunate to have him on our side. It will be very interesting to see what kind of a program he comes up with.

[StanFoster]

Doug- I feel you will be tremendous asset to Larry Neil and the Butterfly gyro . The gyro glider training and offering a true ultralight, and you involved is going to help turn things around. It was nice meeting you at Mentone. Stan

[Dean_Dolph]

Doug, are you sure Larry is talking about a glider or a boomtrainer? The reason I ask is that Steve Weir, the Chapter 62 prez, was talking to him recently and Larry asked if ours was for sale. It isn't!

I personally feel the boomtrainer is much more useful although it doesn't give quite the same experience as a glider. It does teach one rotor management and develops all the right cyclic reflexive responses. Craig Wall in Hondo Texas has extensive experience using both and he advises against using the glider. I know in our area that finding a boomtrainer friendly place is difficult let alone finding a place where we could use a glider.

In either case, a trained towing team and good communication is a necessity.

[mccurley#2]

Do you have a good email address for Craig in Hondo? I'm starting my training soon, and would love to get some time on a boom. I found one crow@concentric.net but that bounced.

Thanks:plane:

[Terry_Smith]

I was recently at Larry's hanger, and the glider in question was going to be wired with an electric pre-rotator, so the pilot could get familiar with the "ultralight" model he's developing. The glider is to be attached with a folding boom that Larry designed - it looked very sturdy. Larry has a LOT of interesting developments on the way. And I also finally had my opportunity to fly with Larry on Wednesday evening and Friday morning, a little over 1 week ago. What a ride! The Golden was a blast to fly in. The G-force landing gear made the landings SO smooth. Personally, there's no other gyro I'd rather build and fly. Just going to take a bit of time to get there.

[GyroDoug]

Doug, are you sure Larry is talking about a glider or a boomtrainer?
In either case, a trained towing team and good communication is a necessity.

Dean,

Larry is developing a boom trainer model to be used primarily to help train people who are buying the Butterfly Ultralight Gyros. (But we'll make it available to anyone who wants to get some stick time with a gyro glider trainer) He is looking for inexpensive Gyro frames as he doesn't feel it is really critical what kind of frame is used for this type of a trainer. He could of course use a Butterfly Ultralight frame but that would be more expensive than finding many existing Bensen type frames that may be available for a pretty reasonable price point, and not really necessary for what he has in mind.

As for communication he has plans to have a radio and intercom system wired to the trainer so there will be voice communication available as well as an opportunity for the student pilot to listen to proper radio communication as the training takes place.

I know finding the right location to do this kind of training may be hard in some areas but I have already found the perfect location here in UT. We have a 100' ft wide by 7,500 ft long. It is a non towered airport that averages only 65 aircraft operations per day. It's a perfect facility for that kind of training and we are excited and anxiously awaiting this program to be unveiled.

[Friendly]

Chapter 20 had the build pictures on our website of the trainer that was built by members of our club. My first flight was on a glider and I hear it will soon be operational again. I hope it is.

Dean,
Why is the boom better than the cable? Are should I say what are the pros and cons of each?

[Heron]

Boom goes up and down, cable goes sideways also, it is more complicated but teaches more,
Having electric power and radio com on each model is not big deal. Pre rotation will help in smaller areas of training and radio will make the ride safer and the learning more complete.
Finally some people are opening their eyes . . .
Gyro lessons in groups will be a better way, some on the ground, some on the classroom and some in the air. All corners covered . . .
thanks
Heron

[PW_Plack]

Boom goes up and down, cable goes sideways also, it is more complicated but teaches more...

I think it's a little more subtle than that. A boom trainer attached vis a standard trailer hitch ball could go side-to-side, too, but it's limited in all axes by aerodynamic forces. Get too high, you'll run out of cyclic pitch to go higher; get too far left or right, and aerodynamics will resist, just as a rudder would.

The biggest differences would seem to be the rigidity of the boom, and its much shorter length. You couldn't dive toward the tow vehicle and make it go slack, as you could with a cable.

[Heron]

Correct, overall is just less freedom or range of motion.
The carriage is more rigidly atached to the towing vehicle.
Couple of blades for single or dual, mockups to pretend you are flying you own machine as well as ballast to simulate your flying AUW.
It is pretty close of the real thing.
Heron

[GyroDoug]

OK everyone,

Here's what you've been waiting for. Larry's newest Ultralight Training Glider on youtube. Sure looks fun to me. Coming to a location near you! (someday)

The GYRO GLIDER Ultralight Butterfly Trainer.wmv
YouTube - The GYRO GLIDER Ultralight Butterfly Trainer.wmv (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAwhP8fHX70&feature=email)

The Gyro Glider Ultralight Butterfly Trainer

[StanFoster]

Doug- I like the looks of that boom trainer. That would have to accelerate a newbies learning curve. Stan

[PW_Plack]

Interesting! This looks like a hybrid between a traditional boom trainer, in which the boom is just a rigid extension of the keel, and a cable-towed glider, which leaves the glider freer to move in pitch.

I guess it would behave more like the cable-towed glider, but without the risk/hassle of the cable going slack...

It would be great to see some detail on the hitch end of the boom. Does it use a standard ball?

[Passin' Thru]

I could not see it in the video, but I hope he's using the diagonal cable between the tow boom (bow sprit) and the cheek plates. This is very important.

[Friendly]

Pete,
I think I saw the cable when I watched it in full screen mode.

[GyroDoug]

Interesting! This looks like a hybrid between a traditional boom trainer, in which the boom is just a rigid extension of the keel, and a cable-towed glider, which leaves the glider freer to move in pitch.

I guess it would behave more like the cable-towed glider, but without the risk/hassle of the cable going slack...

It would be great to see some detail on the hitch end of the boom. Does it use a standard ball?

Paul,

I believe Larry was using a standard ball hitch on the truck end. Personally I think it would be better to use a pintel hitch. That is what I plan to use on mine. That would provide even more freedom of movement and I would think it would make for a much more secure hookup with zero chance it could ever come off the truck.

[Terry_Smith]

At :43 into the video, you can clearly see the cable. I recall seeing it attached to the trainer when I was there, though it hadn't yet been strung. A 2-seater version of this would be perfect for a club trainer. And safer, with no cable slack to worry about.

[EI-GYRO]

I guess it should be called a boom-glider.
I hope he videos a few novices on this thing to make sure they dont find any new
way to screw it up.
It is certainly an interesting approach.
He may be using the standard ball-hitch to limit the vertical range.

[PW_Plack]

...He may be using the standard ball-hitch to limit the vertical range.

But what happens to a ball hitch if you hit that limit?

I've seen jack-knifed cars with small trailers on ball hitches that didn't let go, so they must be pretty secure, but I like Doug's idea.

[EI-GYRO]

I guess if you had a big enough load, something would have to give, but I don't
think the lift of a boom-glider would be enough. It should work well enough as a limiter.
That said, maybe that was just what he had to hand. :)

Barring some student finds a new way to screw it up, it seem like a good idea.

[GyroDoug]

Larry just sent me another video with more information on it.

YouTube - Gyro Glider Boom Trainer Details Video.wmv (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3zEqsvY7nA&feature=email)

[Resasi]

I agree that this looks like a great way to accelerate the initial student learning curve in a very controlled way.

The observer is ideally placed to see exactly what the student is doing, how he responds to what is happening and instructions he is being given, and to give him a detailed and ongoing critique on his handling technique.

Am exceedingly interested how this progresses Doug, what glitches occurr if any and best practices that evolve when using it.

I feel this is an ideal training tool and would be interested in trying to get one up and running over here if at all possible.

[WHY]

Doug

Do you know how much runway was needed to lift off when using the pre-rotor ??

Tony

[Doug Riley]

I'd suggest rigging the trainer so that it can make excursions left and right of the tow car.

The nose will continue to point toward the car even when the glider is far off to one side. As a result, the mains should be castered, so that an unintentional crabbed landing doesn't result in a rollover. Such accidents can be pretty rough.

[Heron]

I saw a video from P. Rico where the instructors seats in the back of a small pick up, facing the glider and talks to the student via intercom. Simple rigg but cable towing.
Heron

[PW_Plack]

I saw a video from P. Rico where the instructors seats in the back of a small pick up, facing the glider...

Bring back the Subaru Brat! ;) When you're done training, the car becomes an engine donor for a single-place!

[GyroDoug]

Doug
Do you know how much runway was needed to lift off when using the pre-rotor ??
Tony

Tony,

I don't know how many feet it took to get off the ground but I would guess several hundred feet. However, I don't see that as really important because I would think you are going to want a runway or straight flat area that is at least 5,000 ft long in order to be able to stay in the air for a while before you have to land and turn around. While a place like El Mirage may allow for continuous running, the rest of us are going to need a very long and very lightly used runway to make this kind of training practical. The airport I plan to use for this kind of operation has a main runway that is over 7,500 ft long by 100 ft wide. It also has pretty low traffic normally (averages 65 aircraft operations per day).

Doug,

The way Larry has it set up, the rudder is operational and the boom allows the gyro to move from side to side. However I do not believe he has changed the main gear from the standard Bensen configuration. I will talk to him about that and see what he has to say about that risk. Thanks for the thought.

[Dean_Dolph]

I'm pretty sure I've posted Chapter 62's experience with the boomtrainer but I can't find it in this thread. So, I'll do it again!

This post will cover several replies I could have made in this thread.

First the boomtrainer has hazards of its own. It can be rolled! Chapter 62 managed to do it because of an untrained tow team and a good gyro pilot that made a bad decision. Without going into detail (I know it is on the Forum some where!) the boomtrainer landed off to one side and without our castering wheels installed, it twisted the boom and rolled over. The very simple roll bar kept the one injury to road rash on one arm of the pilot. After thinking about it I don't believe castering wheels are a good idea, particularly if the tow driver puts the trainer on the ground off to one side which is what happened in the Chapter 62 roll over incident.

The boomtrainer is pitch limited and also yaw limited but not as much in yaw as pitch. You can achieve a pretty severe yaw angle! But I don't think it is a good idea to check out the limits since it really doesn't serve any training purpose that I can see. Craig Wall, who probably has more boomtrainer experience that anyone here could give more insight.

The last email address I have for Craig is cwall@swri.edu Don't be put off if you get an email back saying you are an idiot! That is just the way he is! He doesn't do it to all of us all the time and it is usually when something out of the norm is suggested.

I can't tell exactly what Larry has done with the boom but if he has added a flex joint or two where the trainer can climb level without the tow hitch interfering and also use the roll axis along with a rudder then all three control axis will be in play. I guess the concern would be rotor contact with the ground if these were all in play.

Paul mentioned the Subaru Brat as a tow vehicle and while he may have said it in jest, a small vehicle, at least low in height, would be my first choice. Vans or pickups do block some air to the rotors which leads to a longer takeoff run. The Chapter 62 trainer does have an electric prerotator but one of the things a boomtrainer teaches is rotor management so it wouldn't be used at first. The pilot will know when he is in 'clean' air once he gets off the ground. I happen to have an ole Honda Del Sol that I'd like to try as a boomtrainer tow vehicle.

I mentioned a trained towing team and that is one of the things Craig will mention if you talk to him. He feels it is extremely important. Also communication between pilot and tow team is required. Though hand signals have been used there can be misunderstandings as some experienced glider pilots can tell you! The Chapter 62 boomtrainer has a wired intercom. It was intended to install a air speed indicator for the tow driver but that has never been implemented.

[PW_Plack]

Dean, I was joking about the Brat because of its rear-facing seats in the bed, but good thought about the blocked air.

The video Larry posted shows the ability to climb level behind the tow vehicle, so there's obviously a pitch-agile joint at both ends of the boom.

I'm curious...how would castering wheels have a downside if the tow driver put the glider down off to one side?

[Dean_Dolph]

Paul, the problem I see with the castoring wheels is if the driver messes up and lets the boomtrainer land off to one side and slows quickly (the Chapter 62 driver stopped!) then the speed of the trainer will be faster than the tow vehicle for a bit.

When that happens I can see the boom whipping around and trying to smack up against the tow vehicle. Obviously the travel is going to get limited but there could be some consequences when the limit is reached.

There are a couple of other things I didn't mention about safety; one is wearing a helmet and eye protection (autos do kick up debris!) and using adequate safety restraint. The Chapter 62 trainer uses 4 point harnesses and they came into use during the roll over incident.

[RotoPlane]

Paul, the problem I see with the castoring wheels is if the driver messes up and lets the boomtrainer land off to one side and slows quickly (the Chapter 62 driver stopped!) then the speed of the trainer will be faster than the tow vehicle for a bit.

When that happens I can see the boom whipping around and trying to smack up against the tow vehicle. Obviously the travel is going to get limited but there could be some consequences when the limit is reached.


I thought the same thing could happen as Dean, so I figured it would be wise to limit the boom side to side arc with cables. I still kinda like a rope better though…...;).

[PW_Plack]

Paul, the problem I see with the castoring wheels is if the driver messes up and lets the boomtrainer land off to one side and slows quickly (the Chapter 62 driver stopped!) then the speed of the trainer will be faster than the tow vehicle for a bit.

When that happens I can see the boom whipping around and trying to smack up against the tow vehicle. Obviously the travel is going to get limited but there could be some consequences when the limit is reached...

Dean, I hadn't considered jacknifing, but yes, if a driver was that careless or unknowing, I can see the issue. Whatever device at the tow vehicle end limited the lateral motion of of hundreds of pounds on a 20-foot arm would surely lose, and you'd lose a cable, bend the boom, or probably can-opener the hitch off either the boom or the back of the vehicle. Yikes.

The time I got in the cable glider at El Mirage answered a lot of my questions. When it's time to stop, the drivers start with plenty of room to spare and just take their foot off the gas, no brakes, and let the gyroglider slow the truck with its own drag, so the cable never goes slack.

[EI-GYRO]

The trouble with making things fool-proof is that it encourages the proliferation of fools.

Either the boom-trainer or gyroglider, constructed and operated AS PER BENSEN, is
a reasonably safe proposition. Not risk-free, but reasonably safe.

If you deviate from Bensen, as in not having spring-centred castoring wheels on the boom-trainer,
for instance, or not having a quick-release on a gyroglider,you are probably constructing
your first accident.

It's not rocket science.

If you want to entertain fools with joyrides, make a two-seat glider, and give rides.

Anyone who cant/wont read and absorb Bensen's training guide, should not be let
near either boom-trainer or gyroglider.

Some things simply require a bit of application to do safely, and there's no way round it.

I hope Larry Neal videos his student's efforts. I would be interested to see a few
'first flights' on the boom-trainer.

In theory, a properly set up boom-trainer could be adequately flown by a sack of potatoes as pilot.

Without spring-centred castoring wheels, and operated on concrete/tarmac, an overturn is nearly guaranteed.

[RotoPlane]

I was told to use the rudder, something any glider should have, and keep the glider center-line parallel to the direction of travel. My driver would slow enough just before touch-down, that the rope would slacken and allow rudder control, regardless how far off center I was from the towing vehicle. The glider I used also had mechanical scuff brakes on the front wheel.

I have not used a boom but I can't see how it would be safer than a nylon rope. A boom certainly wouldn't give you the freedom of movement that a rope can provide and I don't see it as a good stepping-stone to powered flight.

[Dean_Dolph]

I was told to use the rudder, something any glider should have.....Actually, Ed, most gliders were built following the Bensen plans and never had a rudder. Since the rope locates the nose there is no need for a rudder. However, the vertical stabilizer is needed on a glider to provide weathervaning and help force the glider in line with the tow vehicle. It is my understanding that the roll axis is normally used to bank a gyro through a turn in most cases and not the rudder. A boom certainly wouldn't give you the freedom of movement that a rope can provide and I don't see it as a good stepping-stone to powered flight.You are right, there is limited range of movement with a boom although Larry's looks like a different animal and appears to provide more than is typical.

As far 'as a stepping stone to powered flight goes', when it comes to transitioning from a heavy two place trainer to a light single place then it may have a purpose. The unfinished Chapter 62 training system incorporated a boomtrainer before powered training commenced. And then after the powered training was completed the student was again run through the boomtraining process to get ready for assuming flight in a light gyro. I asked Craig Wall what his thoughts were about attaching a boom to the students gyro instead and using it for the transition. After taking time out to call me an idiot, he said sure it could and should be done. It seems that I wasn't the first to think about doing that and others have actually done it. I believe I saw a pix once that showed a powered machine being towed but I don't recall if it was as a glider or a boom was used.

In using the students machine as a boomtrainer to transition, the student becomes comfortable in the environment he will be operating in and how the lighter machine responds to cyclic input. And I suppose rudder also if there is a desire to use it. Some experience in the unpowered machine should prepare the student once he undertakes powered flight since he has developed some feel for how his machine responds to cyclic input. Then all he has to be concerned about is how the machine responds when under power. This is all supposition on my part and subject to challenge. I reserve the right to change my mind!

[Passin' Thru]

Actually, Ed, most gliders were built following the Bensen plans and never had a rudder. Since the rope locates the nose there is no need for a rudder. However, the vertical stabilizer is needed on a glider to provide weathervaning and help force the glider in line with the tow vehicle. It is my understanding that the roll axis is normally used to bank a gyro through a turn in most cases and not the rudder.

Exactly right!:yo:
And the cyclic is used to maintain position over the runway. You can make excursions out left and right, but don't touch down out there!

[RotoPlane]

Actually, Ed, most gliders were built following the Bensen plans and never had a rudder. Since the rope locates the nose there is no need for a rudder. However, the vertical stabilizer is needed on a glider to provide weathervaning and help force the glider in line with the tow vehicle. It is my understanding that the roll axis is normally used to bank a gyro through a turn in most cases and not the rudder.

This is true Dean, but there was a reason for this rudder madness. He wanted us to learn to fly off center of the tow-car as I mentioned above, and this required the use of a rudder. Also we didn't stop at the end of the runway...we round-housed it like a water skier. He didn't want the gyro going sideways too fast and so we added rudder to keep heading into the relative wind (yep, we had tell-tails). The other reason was the winds were always changing direction relative to the runway and the rudder helped to keep the gyro going in the direction we wanted it to fly....oh…and we needed it when we cut the rope loose and glided in for a landing. Perhaps I am too tired to make this more sensible ;).

[EI-GYRO]

When we installed engines on our gyrogliders, we conducted towed flights with the engine
stopped, to check out handling and flair performance before starting the process of
learning to crowhop.
It probably wasn't necessary, but it did reduce the 'unknowns' in our path by one item.

[Dean_Dolph]

...... but it did reduce the 'unknowns' in our path by one item.Exactly!

Breaking the process down into steps assures that everything is tested, learned and mastered one bit at at time.

Chapter 62 has a Craig Wall type third wheel that is temporarily attached to the keel right under the mast. The student learns what the roll forces feel like by balancing on that wheel to the point that cyclic input in the roll axis become automatic. Once the balancing act is mastered, the wheel is removed and the trainer is towed fast enough to lift off.

[shootthrees]

Here is a link to Larry's dealer, Brian Booth and glider training in North Texas.

http://www.northtexasgyroplanes.com/#!__glider-training

Plus, here is Webinar with Doug, Larry, Brian and I think Brian's girls:

http://www.utahrotorcraft.org/web/Larry_Neal_2010/Larry_Neal_2010.html

[Jens]

Here is a link to Larry's dealer, Brian Booth and glider training in North Texas.
http://www.northtexasgyroplanes.com/#!__glider-training
Plus, here is Webinar with Doug, Larry, Brian and I think Brian's girls:
http://www.utahrotorcraft.org/web/Larry_Neal_2010/Larry_Neal_2010.html
It looks so great.
If that where available around here, I would sure go there - or probably long since been owning and flying a gyroplane :)

http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=81972&d=1307274741

[phantom]

I think gyroglider time saved a lot of us in the days of teaching your self to fly because you can learn rotor handling without having to deal with rudder or throttle and as you get good at just keeping it right side up start to practice in crosswinds and gusty winds, I have had my glider up in winds as high as 70 MPH gusts on 500 feet of rope tied to a stake frozen in the ice during a blizzard and you know when it is time to land when you have no feeling in your feet, if you stay up longer there is risk of frostbite. I put over 200 hours on gyroglider before starting powered flight and I still keep a glider around so that if it is to stormy to fly I can get my fix by kiting in the wind on a rope, I only need 20 feet of visibablity to fly this way.

norm

[DennisFetters]

Back in the hay-days, when dinosaurs roamed the earth and we didn't have powered two-place training Gyroplanes, the only thing more dangerous than trying to teach yourself to fly a gyro, was learning on a gyro-glider. But back then, that was all we had, and thats why the race was on to develop a powered gyroplane trainer. Bill Parsons was the first to come up with a good trainer, and I was the first to put them into production and mass training finally became available.

Gyro-towing requires two experienced people to fly one aircraft, one in the aircraft and one in the tow-vehicle, both relying on each other to do the right thing, so you now have twice the chance of someone making a mistake. When one person makes a mistake, there is no way for the other person to correct the other, so there is an accident.

Boom-training is as old as the hills, but it is more safe than cable-tow training, but you do not receive near the experience and training.

The electric prerotator is a great idea, and will make for longer air-time and safer operations, but it will not teach the person about blade-flapping, which is one of the most impotent things to learn. Without a prerotator, the person learns not to flap every takeoff, but with the prerotator, only when the instructor chooses to leave it off.

Those smart ones that take tow-training will benefit, but my prediction is that many people that receive tow-training will develop a false feeling of security in their new skills, and move on to self-taught powered training on their own, and leading to desaster..... just like in the old-days. I know human nature.

[Jens]

I don't think we should look at it whether or not gyrogliding is better than something else.
Gyrogliding is one more game - a fun activity, I guess - and one more place to recruit new rotor playmates :first:

[GyroDoug]

While Gyrogliding training can be beneficial for anyone, the reason Larry is developing the program like he is, is to provide an option for people wanting to fly his ultralight model Gyro.

The difference in feel between a heavy two place cabin class gyro (which most people end up getting their training in today) and then transitioning to a very light, open frame, single place machine, can be quite dramatic. The boom trainer has been designed with full communication between the student pilot and the instructor (in the tow vehicle) and allows an experience that is much closer to what it will be like when the transition is made to the students own ultralight machine. It allows training in a very controlled environment and yet with the full communication the student can be involved in what is happening and why and can call for power changes that are made by the speed of the tow vehicle. Granted there is still a transition from being towed to being turned loose but the student is a lot more prepared for the feel that he will experience when he climbs in his own machine.

So far Brian has been having excellent success with this method and it can be a great way to introduce someone brand new to the sport in a very controlled and safe manner and it makes for a less expensive introductory experience for a new person wanting to check it out. I believe a lot of chapters could use this type of system (in a lot of different ways) to help them attract new members.