Time to Start a new SparrowHawk

[r.coplen]

Now with winter comming and our first SparrowHawk flying so well, it's time to start a second machine. Here we go again.

[pwendell]

Way to go Randy.

It's easier the second time!

[PW_Plack]

Thank goodness...I thought this was going to be an accident thread!

[Jerry Carter]

Hey, Randy. Those of us building Sparrowhawks would appreciate any photos, construction tips or other info that you might want to post either here or on your web site. I wish someone would publish their construction log on the web, like a lot of the fixed wing guys have done.

[Vance]

Wow! Thank you, Vance

[ventana7]

Randy,

Way to GO!!

Is that going to be Mooses' machine?

Rob

[r.coplen]

Jerry, Devon Hanson at Groen Brothers Aviation (801 973 0177) in Salt Lake should be a good contact. I know he will do everthing he can to assist you in building your SparrowHawk.

Rob, this is a kit that I have purchased from Moose and I am planning to have it be my second sparrowHawk. I am thinking about selling Ruby when my first SparrowHawk comes on line.

[Jerseywing]

Does anyone know what the lead time is for the RAF conversion kits?

[r.coplen]

Michael,

The delievery time is 30 to 45 days. The base cost is $5429.00. Crateing adds another $132.00. You can get the horizontal and vertical sections assembled by paying another $948.00 (There is a lot of cutting and fitting work of the fiberglass parts to make the vertical and horizontal assembly) I would recommend that you buy it assembled unless you like working with resin and fiberglass and want to spend three or four weeks time. There is an additional option of adding an anti-servo tab for an additional $280.00. I have not used the anti-servo but have heard from Terry Eiland that it makes the rudders much lighter to use and tends return the Rudder to center without the pilots intervention. He said it is a very desirable add on. So the total price is $6789.00 if you buy the whole works. I would like to sell it to you or you can call Devon at GBA and he will get it ordered for you. 1 801 972 0177

[Wolf66]

Good Job Randy. I will need a Biannual next spring and plan on flying in your new sparrowhawk. I should finish my sparrowhawk mod in NOV. I am also selling a yellow RAF for a friend. It would make a great mod aircraft. I have been flying it while I mod my gyro.
How do you post a picture here?

T Davison

[r.coplen]

Terry,

Use the normal "post a reply". Click on "Manage Attachments" that is below the Message box. It will open up and give you a "Browse" that when you click on it, it will take you to your computer files. Pick your picture from your files and upload.

I am excited to have you fly my SparrowHawk. David Overman says it is everything it was advertised to be and more. Landing and takeoffs remind him of the smoothness of a good airplane. Much different than Ruby. The rudders are just right (amount of foot pressure) even though we haven't gone to the anti-servo. I suspect yours will be the same.

[Wolf66]

Thanks Randy,

Here are a couple pictures. The red one is mine and the yellow one is for sale. If you know anyone who would like an RAF to mod send them my way.

Terry D

[GyroRon]

Michael,

You can get the horizontal and vertical sections assembled by paying another $948.00 (There is a lot of cutting and fitting work of the fiberglass parts to make the vertical and horizontal assembly) I would recommend that you buy it assembled unless you like working with resin and fiberglass and want to spend three or four weeks time. There is an additional option of adding an anti-servo tab for an additional $280.00.


How much does the tail all by itself cost? Is the 948.00$ a extra fee to build the tail??? A anti servo tab costs 280$????? :eek: :eek: :eek: :confused:

A dominator tail - all metal and lot's of rivets - completely built and with a Anti Servo Tab included is under a grand. I wonder what is different about the Sparrowhawk tail?

[r.coplen]

Hi Ron,

I'm glad you ask. I'm sorry to be a little long winded, but you have asked me about my favorite subjuct.

I don't think AAI has ever looked at the tail by itself as a seperate item to sell. You have to redue the mast to attach the upper tail supports and of course you have to add the lowered keel and tail assembly. You need these to support the horizontal and vertical tail assembly. You also need the main gear and nose wheel to raise the gyroplane high enough to support the lowered prop and the tail assembly. While they were at it they added shock absorbers to the main landing gear.

The tail assmebly in the SparrowHawk and the Mod RAF is a complex composit
unit. It is made that way to keep it light and also very strong. Before painting I believe the whole unit is under 15 lbs. There are a number of preformed ribs and skins that make up each of the four main sections. There are also honeycomb sections that have to be inserted between all the skins and ribs. This is really a very complicated structure and has taken a lot of engineering time to make it as strong and as light as it is.

The $948 additional charge is for assembling all the composit components that make up the tail assembly. If you like to work with resin and fiberglas parts, save the $948 and do it yourself. It would take me three to four weeks to assemble these units. I have bought both my SparrowHawks with assembled tails because it is more work than I want to do. I do know a little about composites as I have built manufacturing plants for snowboards, wakeboards and waterskis and I believe I know what is effective use of my time.

I have watched the AAI guys make these parts and it is really a lot of skilled work and takes a lot of time. There are a number of visitors who have also seen what goes into these assemblies and I know they share my observations.

You know by the time you add Sports Copter blades and hubbar, the duel bearing upgraded rotor head designed for the Sports Copter blades, the raised main landing gear and nose wheel, the shock absorbers and the new 12 inch lowered redrive unit, with the tail section, this conversion is a hell of a deal. And the best part of all is that you get a centerline thrust machine.

[twistair]

The tail assmebly in the SparrowHawk and the Mod RAF is a complex composit
unit. It is made that way to keep it light and also very strong. Before painting I believe the whole unit is under 15 lbs.

Randy, (hi!),

I believe it's more likely "under 15 kg". I weighed mine (as every part in kit): 11.8 kg assembled (26 lbs!!!), prior to any filling&painting. Skins are very light indeed but it earns a lot of weight in metal parts. Or we have different tails?

[Mayfield]

Good morning,

Alex,

I suspect that the tails vary from tail to tail when assembled, but you are correct. They weigh from 25-26 pounds. I would like to trim out a few pounds. We are trying to make it "Section T" compliant, and unfortunately, with composites, the tail has to stand up to 1.5 times the stress that a metal tail is required to stand up to under Section T.

Randy,

To clear up any misunderstanding: New rotorblades and rotorhead upgrade are not part of the stability augmentation kit.

Jim

[GyroRon]

Randy, Jim.... Why make it so hard on yourself and your end users of your products? why not look at and maybe copy, only making it bigger of course, the Dominator tail, or the Mad Max tall tail?


Both of these tails are very strong, okay so the Mad Max tail IS on the heavy side but it IS also extremely strong, military spec ;)

These tails would have to be much much easier to make, and whether sold as built up units or as a pre drilled tail kit, either way it could be built in one afternoon.

[r.coplen]

Jim, and Alex,

Thanks for the help. I did forget that the Sports Copter blades were an extra item.

Ron, I cannot speak about the Dominator or Mad Max tail assemblies as I have no experience with them. I have seen them at Mentone but have not thought to compare them for use on a SparrowHawk or AAI mod kit. I would certainly defer that kind of experience and knowledge to Jim and his engineering crew.

[twistair]

Guys,

I've built some metal tails for Dominator-type gyros and can tell that they are apparently lighter than composite ones having same (maybe even slightly higher) strength. I've designed these tails basing on my experience with Chris Heintz system which is used for his Zodiac airplanes.
Just for example: composite Domin's T-tail weights 5.5 to 6.5 kg. Aluminium tail designed for same loadings weights 4.2 kg only. And it's fun to build.
Since SH tail has simplified shapes it seems it may be built even easier than that one for Dominator. Next week I begin to assemble second SH kit (Randy! ;) and will try to build metal tail for it - just to compare the result though it seems to be predictable .

[Brent_Brown]

come on Alex an up date on the Vector motor. It looks good so far. Post on the thread that I starter long age not to hijack this one

[twistair]

Another day of flying our first SH yesterday. Windy: 12-15 mph crosswind at the strip (these days we take-off along the strip but do land across it), moderate gusts at altitude. Were to stop flying early due to apparent risk of icing.
We've removed that capstan trim box and installed electric actuators for trim springs (sorry, no photo yet - I've simply forgotten to make them, will do and post tomorrow). They made cabin space more pleasant and adjusting trim springs in flight is just a matter of light touches. Small box with relays and two knobs is placed in the same place where ugly old box was but now it's only 2x2x2 inches. It's easy to reach it both for left and right pilot. I planned to place knobs on stick grips but finally went for simplicity. Since we've moved rotor brake lever from it's place earlier we have good comfortable room now between pilots legs. Next thing to be wheel brakes levers - we've found that current system isn't good enough for us bad weather&bad/short strips flyers.
Here are some shots from yesterday flying. Dmitry still occupies left seat. Our instrument pod is very modest (yet). Three lamps at the above right are "check engine", "rotor brake on" and "gust lock on" warnings. Blue switch is landing light. All other switches and intercom are on the upper panel. Small Flightcom 403MC seats and works very well here.
http://delta.wtr.ru/files/shtesting 004mid.jpg
http://delta.wtr.ru/files/shtesting 002mid.jpg
http://delta.wtr.ru/files/shtesting 008mid.jpg
http://delta.wtr.ru/files/shtesting 012mid.jpg
Brent, I still have only ~10 hours on this Simonini. Everything goes well with this engine and I'm just curious about how long it will last. I will post some more words in "Engines" soon.

Cheers,

[Jerry Carter]

Great job, Alex. I'm very interested in pictures of your trim installation. Also, is there a description somewhere of how you repositioned your rotor brake lever?

[ventana7]

I watched AAI make several tail assemblies when I was there training. It is lots of very precision work. The gentelman who makes them (Jon?) used to work for Burt Rutan at Scaled Composites and is a MASTER at what he does. His assistant is also fantastic. Unless you are really experienced at composites my $ .02 worth of advice would be to buy it from AAI.

Rob

[GyroRon]

Rob, why should it be so hard or so expensive? A metal tail is so much easier, faster and cheaper, easier to repair too.

[twistair]

Great job, Alex. I'm very interested in pictures of your trim installation. Also, is there a description somewhere of how you repositioned your rotor brake lever?

Not yet, Jerry, but I hope to do a photosession tomorrow and will try to bind some words together describing these things. I'm now preparing some webpages at my website describing our experience with SparrowHawk. There already are some - in Russian only but I hope that some information in English may be interesting and - hope - useful. Just some days of patience: I will probably be busy the end of this week since next SH kit should arrive at our workshop so I must to think about flowers to greet it ;)

[Brent_Brown]

Alex someday I will have to come there. It is something I always wanted to to. Looks like fun flying.

[ventana7]

Ron,

I'm a pilot and know didly about construction of either metal or composite structures. I can't say if there are any advantages to composite.

All I do know is that I watched several being built at AAI and the workmamship was really first rate and the details and exactness of cutting and measuring each bit of the support structure inside the tail and HS was impressive and time consuming.

I've been in dozens of boat building factories including the places that build hundred thousand dollar America's Cup masts and defense dept stuff and the workmanship at AAI was comparable. Far above what the average guy is going to do in his garage.--

As to whether that level of quality is necessary I can't say.

Rob

[GyroRon]

I have no doubt it is top rate Rob. But can it be made faster and cheaper and still be a good tail? I think it is something worth looking into.