Band Brakes

[Alan Coats]

I am thinking about installing a set of Azusa band brakes on my GyroBee, with a brake lever on the collective stick. LEAF sells this setup on their utralights.

I know the band brakes won't stop a Mack truck, but they look to be as light, simple to install, and inexpensive as anything else out there.

I would appreciate any comments or advice.

Thanks,
Alan

[GyroRon]

Band brakes if done right are very strong - I had them on my Phantom and could lock and skid the tires easily on landing, if I wanted to -

But, two things to ponder.

One is the bee really doesn't need much for brakes, a simple scrub brake on the front wheel works just fine. Ask Barry K - posts here as UltraCrusier41 - to send you pics or info on how he did his cause his works great.

Two is if your Bee has a collective on it, you don't need brakes cause instead of wheels you'd have skids. I suggest putting the brake lever on the cyclic! :) have a nice day!!!

[KDOG]

I definetly would like to see plans/pictures of a scrub brake assembly. I'll email Barry and ask if he will post the pics in here...

[Alan Coats]

Ron,

Thanks for the correction. I was sleepy when I made that post. I guess I was dreaming I was in a helicopter. Sometimes the terminology gets confusing to a newbee.

I am asking about brakes because after Chuck's accident I am concerned about the starting procedure. It seems like I need to make some effort to keep the gyro under control while on the ground, for my safety and the safety of others in the area.

The scrub brake on the nose wheel would be fine as long as the pilot is in the seat, but it wouldn't do anything to hold the gyro from rolling during start-up of the engine while no one is in the seat and the nose wheel is off the ground.

Would brakes on the mains hold the machine from rolling while the engine was idling? I am sure that the wheels would just skid if the engine was started at full throttle and no one in the seat.

I have not started the engine on my 'Bee yet, and I have not watched anyone pull start a gyro then get into the seat. I am trying to think ahead about doing it as safely as possible.

Please give me your thoughts.

Alan

[scottessex]

I am working on band brakes with a "parking" brake
I will post pictures when I get it done.

[Alan Coats]

Thanks, Scott.

That is what I am looking for. How close are you to being through and posting pics?

Alan

[gyropilot]

The scrub brake on the nose wheel would be fine as long as the pilot is in the seat, but it wouldn't do anything to hold the gyro from rolling during start-up of the engine while no one is in the seat and the nose wheel is off the ground.

Would brakes on the mains hold the machine from rolling while the engine was idling? I am sure that the wheels would just skid if the engine was started at full throttle and no one in the seat.
Alan,

In the interest of safety, I wouldn't rely on any parking brake system to hold your GyroBee in place while the engine is running.

Forgive me if this sounds like I'm preaching... I don't mean to. Please keep in mind we've just had two people killed in the last several weeks from a gyro prop, apparently when the airframe moved unexpectedly.

A parking brake is just that... a brake for a *parked* aircraft. It's a great mechanism for stopping your parked Bee from simply rolling away when parked on smooth pavement due to wind or when parked on a hill. But anytime that engine is running, you really need to be in the pilot seat ready to fly, or standing in front of the seat (or as far in front as practical) with your feet firmly planted on the ground, the weight of your body ready to resist any movement of the aircraft, and the engine kill switch within easy reach at all times.

The only other time I would violate the above rule is when the airframe is securely tied down and prevented from movement by at least two redundant means. This is necessary when adjusting the carbs with the engine running, etc.

I know several pilots who do start their aircraft and walk away with the engine idling and personally I don't like the practice. It's just an accident waiting to happen with the right conditions (or forgetfulness).

Oh... and there's definitely no brake system (parking or otherwise) that'll keep your Bee in one place with the engine at full power. Fully loaded for takeoff, my Bee's main tires will skid on asphalt when the engine rpm approaches 4500 rpm!

Think safety and have a long healthy life!

Best regards,

John L.

[scottessex]

I realize that a parking brake will not hold anything at full throttle. My old engine was electric start, so I could strap in and then fire up. the new engine has no provision for electric start. So I still want to be able to start it from the seat, But the flintstone scrub brake was just one step above useless.
i just want to be able to fire up and not have to worry about rolling while at idle.

[Alan Coats]

Scott,

My thoughts exactly. Actually, I think I said all that in my previous posts.

At some point I will have to go from standing in front of the axle, where I can hold the gyro still after starting it with the pull starter, to sitting in the seat. It would be nice to have some help holding it in place while I "mount up".

By the way, my throttle and kill switch will be within easy reach from the starting position, and while I get in the seat.

Alan

[Doug Riley]

Both the one-place and the two-place Dominators use Azusa band brakes. They are very effective on the one-place and pretty marginal on the tandem.

I have a plywood scrub brake on the nosewheel of my Gyrobee. I "borrowed" the assembly from my old Bensen, narrowed it to fit the dimensions of the nose fork, and mounted it with a single retractor spring (that also helps to center the nosewheel). I don't have the disk with detail photos here at work, but will try to remember it tomorrow.

One construction detail that will help with engine-starting safety is this: route the start rope over a pulley on the lower forward bolt of your rotor head cheek plates. You can copy the details from an Air Command. Use a Velcro strap to safety the pull handle in place. This allows you to start the machine while standing in front of the axle and next to the seat. You are then in a good position to hit the kill switch if the engine surges on startup-- in contrast to standing behind the axle, next to the engine if the rope is left protruding from the engine housing. You'll need to replace the stock starter rope with a longer one to accomplish this.

Practice your lunge for the kill switch (without the engine running) until you can do it automatically. Double- and triple-check the throttle position before you yank the trigger.

[Alan Coats]

Thanks, Doug.

The starter rope comes from the engine about an inch behind the mast. The axle is aligned with the mast. I rotated the starter rope exit so it comes out on the left side of the gyro. The throttle and kill switch are on the left side of the seat.

So, I can pull the starter rope while standing in front of the axle, and reach the throttle and kill switch from there. (I will practice hitting the kill switch - that is a good idea).

It just seems that having some braking power to hold the gyro still after I start it would be a good idea. And, brakes could sure come in handy if I ever found myself rolling down hill, downwind, towards people or obstacles, or maybe even slipped and fell while pulling on the starter rope.

Also, I do not plan on flying without a pre-rotator.

Keep in mind, this is coming from someone who has only had one lesson in a gyro with an electric starter. I am just trying to picture what could go wrong, and avoid it.

If anyone would like to share their procedure for starting, mounting, and pre-rotating a simple machine like the Bee, I would like to see it.

As always, thanks to everyone for responding.
Alan

[gyropilot]

Alan and Scott,

Prior to building my Bee I'd never pull started an aircraft engine before. It'd always been electric start for me. The whole idea of standing beside my aircraft, pull-starting it, then keeping it from rolling away without me while trying to get on and strapped in occupied many hours of wonder in my head. I hadn't spent any time around the UL crowd, so I had no idea how common this procedure is, nor how it was safely done.

I emailed several pilots, especially an UL trike pilot friend of mine down in Oregon who filled me in. I was basically told that at idle and on level grass, the aircraft probably won't roll anywhere with me sitting in it. I was assured that it would not be difficult to hold the aircraft back by blocking the front of the seat with my legs (feet firmly planted on the ground). I was also warned (in so many words): God help you if you start the engine at full throttle! I was told that if I made that mistake and didn't instantly hit the kill switch, I'd better make darn sure I get the hell out of the way of the spinning prop because the aircraft would certainly leave without me! That warning was given credibility with several stories of fixed wing UL aircraft departing earth (sans pilot) when a throttle was inadvertently left in the wrong place during a pull-start.

The good news is a gyro won't take-off without the blades spinning and without a pilot. The bad news is it'll probably do some serious damage to something or someone in the area before it comes to a stop!

Of course UL pilots who've been around awhile will know the advice I was given was completely accurate. So double and triple check that the throttle (and carb slides) are at idle before pull starting!

Now I'm sure everyone develops their own procedure for pull starting an aircraft, but thankfully I found it to be quite simple and not at all threatening... that is with the engine from idle to about 3000 rpm. At 3000 rpm and higher, you really have to pay attention to what your doing as the airframe becomes increasingly difficult to hold from moving forward.

Here's the cold-start procedure I use for my Bee...

The pull start handle on my Bee is currently in the stock location at the front of the engine and oriented toward the carb (right) side of the engine. I therefore have to stand to the right of the pilot seat in front of the main landing gear axle, with one foot on either side of the main landing gear drag strut. After pre-priming the engine, checking that the throttle is in the idle position and insuring the ignition switches are off, I briskly pull the engine through once or twice to draw fuel from the intake manifolds into the cylinders. I then check the position of the throttle again, set the ignition switches to on, yell clear, and pull the starter handle briskly once or twice (as needed) until the engine begins to cough to life. *Immediately* as the engine begins to catch, I lean my body forward about half in front of the seat and place my hands on the seat back. With a firm grasp on the seat, I move the position of my feet and legs until I'm standing on the right / front corner of the seat with my legs blocking it. It takes maybe a second or two from the time I release the pull-start handle until I'm in the new position and the engine will be just starting to come to life. Once in position in front of the seat, I manipulate the primer and throttle as needed until I get the engine to smooth out.

Once the engine is started and running smoothly at idle, I carefully move to face the keel with my left hand still on the seat back and my left leg still blocking the front of the seat. I then place my right foot on the brake pedal (which is between the rudder pedals on my Bee), while simultaneously pushing down the cyclic so I can step up and over the keel and into the seat... keeping one of my feet on the brake pedal at all times.

Of course it's a lot more complicated to explain and read about than to actually do.

My point is that once you do this a dozen times and develop your own style, you won't need any help and you'll feel comfortable with the procedure. While learning, it's a good idea to chock the main wheels and have a helper nearby to remove them once you're strapped in and ready to taxi. In time you won't need the wheel chocks whether on grass or a hard surface.

Now starting on an icy surface might be a totally different matter! Maybe Doug and Ralph can share some interesting stories about that sort of thing?

Regards,

John L.

[KDOG]

Can't we come up with some kind of retractable wheel chock or how 'bout a bar with a rubber foot on the end of it that sticks into the ground from the aircraft to keep it from moving forward? Or better yet, extend the pull start cable so you can start the engine from the seat.

One thing that I will do on my bee is make a laminated placard or just card that is up by the pull start handle that has in big red letters CHECK YOUR THROTTLE!!! as a visual reminder to check it...

[GyroRon]

If your going to be hand starting your blades, you need to be able to start from the seat. The drill is to start the engine and let it warm up and do your mag checks etc... while it is warming up.

Then taxi down the end of the runway or whereever it is your going to stop to spin the blades.

Then stop the engine and get out of the gyro. Get you seatbelt ready to put on quickly and have everything ready for immediate go. Get up, stand in the seat and start spinning the blades. Once you got the blades spinning as fast as possible, then bvery quickly turn around and fall into the seat and making sure the throttle is at idle fire up the engine. Release the brake and at idle start taxiing forward into the wind.

As your just starting to move, quickly reach for and fasten the seatbelt. Once your strapped in, you should be ready to fly. Just slowly taxi until the blades start to accellerate and then work the power to bring the blades fully up to speed. Then when it is ready take off.

[GyroRon]

Forgot to add, NEVER EVER try to hand start the rotorblades while the engine is running!!! You might slip or fall and end up with a hand in the prop. It has happened before!

[mceagle]

And If you must hand start the blades with the engine running, stand on the R/H side of the gyro and push the blades across the machine directly above the seat. Never stand on the L/H side and push rearward, or on thr R/H side and pull forward. This lesson has been learnt the hard way by many, including some that have said "It doesn't apply to me, I am too careful for that".

[Doug Riley]

Ron's right -- the Gyrobee is so tall that most people have to stand on the seat to hand-push the blades. I've seen people stand on the seat with the engine running (Jim Fields of Gyrotech, for example). Scary and unsafe.

So, yes, make sure the engine will start with a single pull, by warming it up or just knowing how to prime it correctly. Hand-start the blades with the engine OFF, then slide down promptly, fire up and start your slow taxi.

I've attached pics of the scrub brake.

[KDOG]

Thats pretty simple enough - just the way I like it!!! Thanks for the pics!

[scottessex]

I have a bensen style nose wheel, along with a fiberglass seat w/seatcover off the old gyro I'd be willing to sell.

[Brian Jackson]

Anyone know of a simple switch device/arrangement, similar to (or parallel to) a kill switch that's linked somehow with the throttle lever? I'd like to incorporate a simple system that would not allow the engine to start if the throttle is engaged past idle. Thanks.

Brian

[GyroRon]

Brian, just use your eyes to check it and even better just push the throttle back to make sure it is closed. It is a shame what happened to Chuck, but it was so very preventable. We could come up with a zillion ideas to keep this from happening again, everything from electronic safety systems on the throttle - a interlock system - to retractable wheel chocks, to a buzzer that goes off, you name it....

Just don't loose sight of KISS. Do you know what that stands for?

Best way to keep what happened to Chuck from happening again is to treat the machine like you would a loaded gun. Alot of us here are Gun Nuts and as such most of us here know not to handle a loaded gun without making sure the safety is on and there is no round in the chamber. And we all know to be very careful, it could fire and kill us or someone else nearby. A gyro is the same thing. Just pay attention and double check things like " is the throttle closed ? " before attempting to start the engine.

the best thing is a little piece of paper called a Checklist. Make a good checklist and follow it and all will be ok.

Hope you don't feel I am jumping on you Brian, I am not. It is just that the obvious hasn't been said yet, since our friend Chuck had the accident.

[banaari]

Forgive the title, I'm not trying to be macabre here, but I think I'll be going for some sort of switch arrangement in which the main kill switch would be left in the KILL position, but the engine could be started so long as another, momentary-acting switch was held ON.

Arranged such that it could not be reached from anything other than a safe place (consistent with still being able to pull-start); i.e. the instant you let go, or fell, the engine would cut out.

[Brian Jackson]

Brian, just use your eyes to check it and even better just push the throttle back to make sure it is closed. It is a shame what happened to Chuck, but it was so very preventable. We could come up with a zillion ideas to keep this from happening again, everything from electronic safety systems on the throttle - a interlock system - to retractable wheel chocks, to a buzzer that goes off, you name it....

Just don't loose sight of KISS. Do you know what that stands for?

Best way to keep what happened to Chuck from happening again is to treat the machine like you would a loaded gun. Alot of us here are Gun Nuts and as such most of us here know not to handle a loaded gun without making sure the safety is on and there is no round in the chamber. And we all know to be very careful, it could fire and kill us or someone else nearby. A gyro is the same thing. Just pay attention and double check things like " is the throttle closed ? " before attempting to start the engine.

the best thing is a little piece of paper called a Checklist. Make a good checklist and follow it and all will be ok.

Hope you don't feel I am jumping on you Brian, I am not. It is just that the obvious hasn't been said yet, since our friend Chuck had the accident.

Hi Ron.
I never thought you were jumping on me, even when you... what was it... something about a KISS? :D (there's a joke in there somewhere)

Seriously though, yours is great advice. I agree with the whole "Keep It Simple Stupid" strategy, and agree that we should all use preflight checklists RELIGIOUSLY for any aircraft. Hell, I made a pre-saw checklist for a table saw because I value my digits. :eek:

My thinking was the same as yours in your above analogy about gun safety... Avoidable accidents still happen, but even handguns have a safety switch built into the trigger mechanism to help prevent lapses in memory and HUMAN error... "human" being the operative word.

In my table saw example, I was nearely impaled by a kicked-back board even though I had a checklist in front of me. I completely agree with you and highly value your input as the accomplished airman you are. But even a novice must recognize that we're not always at our mental best every day, and even the most experienced pilot will occasionally miss something. It's during those times that accidents happen. In Chuck's case it was lethal.

What about a little spring-loaded pin that catches when you pull the throttle back to near-idle that is easily released by your pinky only if your hand is on the throttle? That way the pin is automatically engaged when you throttle back to kill the engine after landing. The next time you start the engine, it's still engaged and won't go past idle. That may not be the right design, but it's the kind of KISS engineering that might have prevented many an ultralight and gyro pilot from losing their life and/or ship as a result of a split-second lapse in pre-flight concentration. Lord knows we have enough spectators around to distract us.

With sincerest respect,
Brian Jackson

[GyroRon]

I brought up KISS cause we don't want to make our machine overly complex, expensive or heavy. And cause anything added that has the ability to kill the engine - besides the kill switch we HAVE to have - is one more thing that can fail and cause a unexpected landing.

I don't know anything more than you guys know about what happened to Chuck. My guess is he had drove to this fly in that morning and had unloaded his gyro, put his blades on and was in a hurry to fly. He probably had lot's of spectators - since it wasn't a gyro fly in and he was probably the only one there with a gyro, and from experience when your the only gyro at a fly in you always have a crowd of people distracting you. I believe he probably just got in a hurry and forgot to check the throttle before pulling the cord. I am sure he wasn't using a checklist - and most of us don't - He just forgot a simple step in the starting procedure. It proved fatal and that sucks.

I am sure if enough thought is put into it, a simple system can be made to insure the gyro won't start unless at idle, sorta like most straight drive cars these days won't start unless the clutch pedal is pressed down while turning the key.

the nice thing about the ignition on most two strokes you Bee drivers will be using, is the engine wants to always run. The kill switch is just a switch to Ground the kill wires. So if the wire fails, or the connector fails, or the switch goes bad, chances are the engine will keep running, which is good! you want the engine to keep running if you up flying when the failure occurs. So my thoughts are, anything else you add to try to kill the engine will take away the redundancy of this system. Twice that I can remember I have landed in a ultralight airplane, or Rotax powered gyro and went to turn off the engine and it wouldn't because the switch or wire failed or a connector came off. I would rather deal with a engine that I have to make quit on the ground than one that could quit on me in the air without my making it quit!

[banaari]

If the kill circuit is a short-to-ground mechanism, then the DMC (momentary OFF) goes in series with the main kill switch, and the failure mode is then engine ON.

[Brian Jackson]

Point taken, Ron. I was suggesting something purely mechanical... a little latch on the throttle arm itself that, when drawn back to idle, would catch and not go forward until the pilot put his hand on it. We're talking "paper clip" technology. But something that light, simple and seemingly stupid may have prevented deaths.

Nonetheless I'm still learning here, so I'm relying on you and others to bounce ideas off of.

Respectfully,
Brian Jackson

[GyroRon]

Maybe something like that could be designed and would Work Brian. Give it some thought and see what you come up with. Start a new thread with whatever you brainstorm and come up with.

[GyroRon]

My throttle is set - and I set all of my throttles this way - to stay put where I leave it. I even use the friction lock on the throttle in my Pacer to always have some resistance to movement at all times. This way as long as I remember to check that the throttle is closed before starting, the only way it would be open is if someone moved it there while I was pulling the cord.

When I am ready to start my drill is always the same.

1. I go to the right side of the gyro.

2. I turn the ignition switches to the ON position

3. I look at the throttle and take my hand and press it to make sure it is always fully back to the closed position - the throttle is beside the seat on the left side, but easily reachable from standing on the right side of the seat where I am at during this.

4. I then look down behind the seat, beside the mast, to make sure my in line fuel valve is in the open position

5. I then pull out and push in my fuel Primer - this squirts raw fuel into the intake manifold and takes the place of Chokes and makes the engine much easier to start - The Primer is located on the engine mount frame right under the carbs

6. Then I do one more look for anyone that might be close to the gyro to make sure they are out of the way, I yell Clear Prop and then grab the pull handle and give it a healthy pull. I am standing with one leg in front of the landing gear and one beside the tire. I am not behind the landing gear!

7. Once started - sometimes it take 2 or 3 pulls - I put my left hand on the seatback to keep the gyro from rolling and then climb up into the gyro and sit down. I am extra careful not to knock the throttle with my feet or legs as I enter the gyro - from the right side. I put my feet on the brakes and put on my seatbelt, take one more look for people or other vehicles, and then off I go.

I recently installed a clutch in my gearbox that allows my prop to sit still when the engine is at idle. This helps because before, the gyro would want to roll forwards slightly even at idle and I had to hold it from moving as I got in. That could be tricky to do on Pavement as it would really want to move then. If I hadn't installed the clutch, I would have rearranged everything - Primer etc... - and routed the pull cord to the mast so I could start from the seat. I wanted to avoid mounting it there cause it is hard to get a strong pull pulling from the seat, so that is one main reason I got the clutch.

BTW, Chuck Irby had the same clutch in his machine. but of course his throttle wasn't at idle so as soon as the engine fired up the clutch locked up and the gyro went forward.

[Brian Jackson]

Maybe something like that could be designed and would Work Brian. Give it some thought and see what you come up with. Start a new thread with whatever you brainstorm and come up with.
I will Ron. It's amazing how many brainstorms lead back to complication and user-ability. As an engineer I appreciate designs that service all needs with the fewest parts or instruction. This problem presents itself as the classic example: a need for a simple solution to a complicated problem.

I have some ideas, and will present them here in 3 days or so. I'll start a new thread, and hope you'll share your knowledge and input.

Would love to share a cup of coffee with you soon.

Respectfully,
Brian Jackson

[GyroRon]

Don't drink Coffee, but we could drink Dr. Peppers and smoke cigarettes! ;)

[Udi]

Brian - John (banaari) had a good suggestion. The kill switch he is talking about is a popular safety device in ultralights. You can even buy a mast-mounted spring-loaded switch from LEAF or other ultralight suppliers.

In essence, the Rotax engine kill switch is configured with an open circuit for "ON" and a closed circuit (short) for OFF. The mast switch is a spring-loaded, normally closed switch, which basically means that when you let go of it, it closes the circuit and cuts the engine off. If you slip, fall, forget the throttle on high, see someone else getting close to the prop, whatever, all you have to do it let go of the switch and the engine quits.

Your panel-mounted switch is connected in series with the mast switch. So, when you start the engine, your panel-mounted switch is in the OFF position. After you've started the engine, you would have to move the panel switch to ON **before** letting go off the mast switch, or the engine would quit.

You may still be able to screw up by forgetting the panel switch in the ON position, and forgetting the throttle on high, but I believe the likelihood of this happening is much smaller than the likelihood of just forgetting the throttle on high. And every time you are starting the engine, you would have to press the mast switch, which would jog your memory to look at the panel switch and check the throttle.

Udi
p.s. I think we have hijacked this thread...

[Alan Coats]

Udi,

The original question was about putting brakes on my Bee. After a lot of great discussion, the thread came back around to the reason I thought I would need brakes in the first place (I also learned that I want to move the starter rope exit back to the right side of the gyro).

Great work, guys!

Brian -

How about a kill switch mounted on the landing gear strut, right about where you might put your hand to steady yourself when starting the engine? Seems like a good kill switch would do more to overcome a brain fart that lets you start your engine at full throttle than a throttle interlock would.

Alan

[Brian Jackson]

Brian -

How about a kill switch mounted on the landing gear strut, right about where you might put your hand to steady yourself when starting the engine? Seems like a good kill switch would do more to overcome a brain fart that lets you start your engine at full throttle than a throttle interlock would.
Absolutely. I'm sure there's a few good locations, and probably a pre-existing system already in use somewhere. It's just a matter of finding the information.

[scottessex]

Here are a few pictures of my brake parts.

I made the pedals out of mild steel and TIG welded them.
The wheelbarrow wheels had no provision for mounting a drum, so I welded a flange onto it and I am using go-kart band brake.

[GyroRon]

Scott, nice looking brake pedals but I think you might could have done it better. In my experience, it is easiest to have the brakes either on a lever and tied together, so if you pull on lever both brakes are put on, or done as toe or heel brakes, But mounted high or close enough so as to be able to use them and the rudder pedals at the same time.

Maybe the pictures don't show the jist of it well, but I think you will have to take your feet off the rudder to work the brakes. might make for shaky handling....

[scottessex]

Well you are right, but I can turn them around and they are the same height as the rudder pedals, so I could reach them with my toes. That's why it sucks not building from plans, there is alot of R&D to do that takes time.
Does a dominator use toe brakes? or heel brakes?
I am thinking about using the main wheel brakes for steering, but I am not sure yet.

[GyroRon]

The dominator uses Heel brakes. Alot of dominator pilots though... can't seem to use them as they were designed and they drop their feet down and use the brakes with their toes. Once learned how to use them properly, they work great.

[GyroRon]

Oh well, I couldn't find a good picture of my pedals. Sorry

[Brent_Brown]

That's why it sucks not building from plans.

No scott that is what makes it FUN.

can you feel the love?

[scottessex]

The suck part is not being able to fly. I don't mind building.

[Screw]

Screw-In

Scott, Your doing a great job. Keep building and before you know it, you'll be flying.

Screw-Out

[Brian Jackson]

The suck part is not being able to fly. I don't mind building.
But at least you've got something to sit in and make motor noises :D . All I've got so far is some real pretty aluminum pieces to sit on and make motor noises :eek: (ouch!)

[scottessex]

Vroooom, Whup Whup Whuop!!!!

[Brent_Brown]

More like Buzzz, Buzzz , Buzzzzzzz......

[GeneWeber]

Hi Folks,

Here is the scrub brake I made for the “Bee Different” (The “Bee Different” is part Honeybee, part Gyrobee and eventually a tall tail). In this photo the front assembly is laying on my workbench before it was installed on the keel tube. The nuts and bolts are not the final properly sized ones, they were just temporary.

The brake pad is a piece of 2” x ¾” oak. I clamped two pieces together and drilled a hole through the center. I used one of those pieces, which then had a channel that the round aluminum tube fit in tightly. I then ran the other side of the block sideways over my table saw blade to make it concave so that it would “fit” the tire and have more contact area. Note that the edges were cut on a 45 so that the shoe would not “grab” the tire when the brake is applied. The sidepieces are 2” x 1/8” aluminum that I shaped as desired and drilled appropriate holes. I bolted the sidepieces on the fork, put the aluminum tube through them, fit the wooden brake shoe on and held it against the tire and marked the correct position of the wood. Then I drilled the holes through the sides into the wooden brake shoe and attached it with stainless steel screws. I then epoxied the aluminum tube in place with JB Weld. The tube fits very tightly, and was hard to move even without the epoxy. A pair of springs keeps the brake off the tire. After painting I put self-adhesive anti-slip material on the tube. Note that I masked the part of the wooden brake shoe that contacts the tire.

It hasn’t been tried out in the real world yet, so I can’t say how well it will work, but it seems to hold the tire well with a modest amount of pressure.

The tire and fork are Brock. Their quality is outstanding. John Mealey created the rest of the front assembly pieces. He is a master craftsman. I’d say he has forgotten more about metal working (and other related skills) than most people know, except I don’t think he’s forgotten anything. His Bee is a real work of art.

Regards,

Gene

[Alan Coats]

Gene,

That is a neat design, and the workmanship looks great.

Alan

[Flying_Lab_Rat]

Has anyone considered adapting scooter brakes to one of these? The electric scooters have manual brakes, wheels that are often of the same or similar size, and a nifty little lever that clamps onto handlebars normally, but perhaps your control? you can also find disk brakes for them that are very lightweight, and use the same manual control. Just a thought. I did a search on scooter brakes, and it brought up a ton of them. I imagine that the cable lengths can be modified for length fairly easily.

[Jazzenjohn]

Several people use scooter parts now. They weren't quite as popular 4 years ago when the thread was last posted to.
I'm trying to find an aluminum or plastic hub wheel, preferably with brake, for a 2.50-4 tire. Did you happen to run across one while you were looking?

[Flying_Lab_Rat]

I really wasn't looking that close. I imagine the brake parts could be modified to fit about any size wheel if a person did it right. I was going to adapt them to fit a foam tire for a hand truck(moving cart) or wheelbarrow or something of the sort.

[Jazzenjohn]

I have been looking at wheels for wheelchairs and powered chairs, as well as hand trucks and dollies, and scooters. The brakes don't seem like too big a problem if you're handy with a lathe. Bicycle brakes look good too. I have a steel wheel now but I haven't given up hope...

[mabik]

Thanks Rat, for digging up this thread. Lots of priceless info here, not all of it on topic.
doc matt;)

[Racer]

Thomas Fernandez put band brakes on his Gyro bee and they worked well, so well that they spun the axil tubes and bent the support tubes. He had to make a bracket near the frame that would keep the axil tubes from turning and now all is well.

[Flying_Lab_Rat]

I only wish I had access to a lathe; it would make a few things so much simpler. Unfortunately, for things like this I have to resort to a steady hand and a marker. Fortunately disk type brakes are really forgiving, and you can mark your wheel at the diameter you need to put the holes in, put it on a shaft, give it a spin, and touch the marker to it for a good line. (good ol' farm engineerin'). If you mess it up, erase it and try again. I'll go this route before putting something on that rubs on the tire.

[Dale Young]

Racer,
I added disc brakes to my Gyrobee and I worry about torquing the axles like you mentioned Mr. Fernandez's doing. Do you have any pix of how he designed his setup?

[Racer]

I am sure he would be OK with me taking pics of his modification and posting them, I will do that next time I am out at the hanger.

[Dale Young]

Racer, Thanks! I've been mulling this mod over for some time now and have'nt decided exactly how to do it. I have been worried that mine would eventually torque around.