SH II down in So Indiana

[gyroplanes]

Glad the pilot is apparently "OK". Anyone have details of this accident?


IDENTIFICATION
Regis#: 91814 Make/Model: EXP Description: SPARROWHAWK II
Date: 07/27/2010 Time: 1505

Event Type: Accident Highest Injury: None Mid Air: N Missing: N
Damage: Substantial

LOCATION
City: TELL CITY State: IN Country: US

DESCRIPTION
AIRCRAFT CRASHED IN A WOODED AREA, NEAR TELL CITY, IN

INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 0
# Crew: 1 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk: 1
# Pass: 0 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:

WEATHER: OWB 1456Z 25009 7SM BKN040

OTHER DATA
Activity: Unknown Phase: Unknown Operation: OTHER


FAA FSDO: INDIANAPOLIS, IN (GL11) Entry date: 07/28/2010

[Al_Hammer]

http://www.wave3.com/Global/story.asp?S=12876464

[Mike484]

From the pictures of the gyro it looks like he was very fortunate to live through this.

[cgmg]

This gentleman contacted me a while back, and we talked on the phone a couple times. Hooked him up with Ron Menzie for training.

Haven't heard from him lately. Really sorry to see this happened. Can't imagine how he survived that crash.

Hope to hear he makes a full recovery.

[StanFoster]

I am sick to hear this. I sold Charles that SparrowHawk kit. My thoughts and prayers that his injuries heal fast.



Stan

[Chuck Roberg]

Bummer. I really hope he recovers.

I'd really like to know the cause other than "engine failure". But speculation at this point is totally useless.

[dragonflyerthom]

I wish him a speedy recovery.

[Vance]

Burns require a long and painful recovery.

Older makes it harder.

I wish him the best.

Thank you, Vance

[billygyro]

I hope all turns out OK for him, Burns are never good but at least he will be OK.
to bad about the gyro as well. but it can be replaced.. hope for a speedy recovery.

[Friendly]

69 and flying, sounds like he must be in good health before the accident. I hope he recovers quickly as well. He must have done a good job of putting it down, if he was able to get out of it and get away before it was consumed in fire.

[Friendly]

Heres another picture of the Airport

[Hardy]

I hate to post this but Mr. Lunceford died from burns at University Hospital in Louisville.

[Mike484]

Prayers to the family and friends.

[scottessex]

Oh no, My condolences.
Tragic.

[Chuck Roberg]

So sorry to hear that.

[Timchick]

Very sad to hear. Our prayers will be with his friends and family.

[garybuster]

Dang... and now we won't be able to learn from his experience in that situation.

Dang... sorry for the loss to the family...

Dang.


Gary Buster

[Friendly]

So sad indeed. May his family find peace

[Resasi]

My condolences to friends and family. How sad.

[Not Yet]

Sorry for him and the loss to the family

[Aussie_Paul]

Only for the grace of God go I. Condolences to his family and friends.

Aussie Paul. :)

[Gyropilot007]

I'm very sorry for his passing and the loss to his family. I wish there were some way we could know what actually happened.

[bmoore2156]

Bummer. I really hope he recovers.

I'd really like to know the cause other than "engine failure". But speculation at this point is totally useless.

This is very sad.
Speculation as to the cause of this accident would be useless. I think one major problem with the fiberglass seat tanks in these (and mine) is the non-compadibility with ethanol. I have talked to 2 gyro guys that have landed engine outs due to this.
Please, if you have a fiberglass seat tank, DON'T USE ETHANOL!
I knew about these problems and was still using it in my tank. I had the "It won't happen to me attitude" I think I was lucky it didn't happen.
Brad

[Timchick]

The problem isn't just an issue of ethanol weakening the tank. The larger problem is the fuel tanks rupturing and causing a fire in an otherwise survivable crash/hard landing. Over the past few years this has happened several times. We need to develop and use fuel cells/tanks that won't be easily ruptured in a crash or tip over. I don't know how much an aluminum tank would cost to be made for some of these 2 place machines but it would certainly be worth it if it increased the survivability rate.

[bmoore2156]

Tim,
I agree with you totally...
The 2 engine outs I was talking about was the coating inside the tank blocking the flow of fuel. I have wanted to build an aluminum tank from the start. I think I will continue on that.
Brad

[Mike484]

There was also a thread a while back that discussed a product, similar to steel wool, that you put into the fuel tank which helps to prevent fires in a rupture. May be worth doing some more research on.

[barnstorm2]

My condolences to the family and friends.

On the subject of cockpit fires, I have installed an automatic fire extinguisher between the engine and my fuel tank. It was an easy install and not very expensive.

.

[Riff Raf]

Tim,
I agree with you totally...
The 2 engine outs I was talking about was the coating inside the tank blocking the flow of fuel. I have wanted to build an aluminum tank from the start. I think I will continue on that.
Brad

Brad
Count me in on that, also make sure you can mount some type of new style seats to it
like Carbon fiber Recaros or something....:)
or the new ones Sport copter has. 18" wide each for the RAF cabin.

[jchurchman]

My condolences , as well, to family and friends. One comforting thought is the fact that at 69, he was still pursuing his passion for flight, and passed doing what he loved. Still, my heartfelt sympathies.

[Heather Poe]

There was also a thread a while back that discussed a product, similar to steel wool, that you put into the fuel tank which helps to prevent fires in a rupture. May be worth doing some more research on.

It is called Explosafe, search for it on this forum.

[Gyro_Kai]

There was also a thread a while back that discussed a product, similar to steel wool, that you put into the fuel tank which helps to prevent fires in a rupture. May be worth doing some more research on.

Hello,

here is a video on it:
YouTube - Andy Tille ELA Autogyro get`s DetoStop (www.gyrocopter.es) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HdkC1sjyOo)

http://www.dr-spaeth.de/index.html

Kai.

[karlbamforth]

Video looks great but.........

It only works if the tank does not fail and the fuel does not spill. IE. the fuel remains in the tank.

If the fuel tank fails or the fuel spills then the "detostop" will no longer work the fuel will still burn.

The devastating fires we see in accidents are most likley fuel fed from leaks and spillage not from fuel tank explosion which is what this product will prevent.

Flexible fuel hoses with fire proof coverings, flexible puncture resistant tanks and anti spill filler caps would probably be a better investment.

[gyroplanes]

The problem isn't just an issue of ethanol weakening the tank. The larger problem is the fuel tanks rupturing and causing a fire in an otherwise survivable crash/hard landing. Over the past few years this has happened several times. We need to develop and use fuel cells/tanks that won't be easily ruptured in a crash or tip over. I don't know how much an aluminum tank would cost to be made for some of these 2 place machines but it would certainly be worth it if it increased the survivability rate.

Tim, you hit the nail here.

Unfortunately there are not enough SHs out there to justify making a mold and forming PEX fuel tanks. Custom aluminum tanks are a good second choice, especially if some form of energy absorption were built in between the seats and the tank. Aluminum is easily deformed by load and not very puncture resistant,

Picture a nasty 10g, near vertical impact. two 200lb pax =400lb x10g = 4,000lbs. You have to engineer a seat mount to give in an accident like that , but not allow two tons of pax to cave in fiberglass, carbon fiber or aluminum.

If I had the time or was the owner of a SH. I would look for an industrial (PEX) fuel tank that would fit the fuel bay of a SH. Many automotive fuel tanks have been made from PEX over the years, I'll bet one might make a good candidate.

Failing that, if enough SH owners got together they could probably convince one of the aircraft fuel cell rebuilders to make them a bladder that would fit their application. You would still need to brace against compression of the fuel cell in an impact.

Next year I'll put together a crashworthiness seminar Powerpoint for the PRA web site and Mentone.

[WHY]

Hi Tom

What would the rough cost of a tank from PEX costs, somewhere between oh my god and a valium ?????

Tony

[Timchick]

Tim,
I agree with you totally...
The 2 engine outs I was talking about was the coating inside the tank blocking the flow of fuel. I have wanted to build an aluminum tank from the start. I think I will continue on that.
Brad

Brad, after I posted my comment I realized you were talking about the disolving problem which has led to the engine outs. My post was directed at the tanks bursting during a crash and dousing the occupants with fuel. There just seems like a solution can be found. Even if a bladder/new design cost $1000 it would be well worth it for the increased safety. It's bad enough if the pilot is flying alone and it happens to him but we've seen passengers burned to death. If I ever get a 2 place machine I want a better solution than what's currently out there.

[StanFoster]

If I still had my SparrowHawk, I would be ripping out the seats and starting over with something better than fiberglass panels holding 20 plus gallons of fuel inside the cabin. That part always bugged me.

I feel tanks strapped alongside the keel and under the cabin would be better....and it would help lower the CG closer to the thrustline. My SparrowHawk flew great...but I wish I had double hang tested it so see how much lower the the thrustline was below the CG.


Stan

[gyroplanes]

Hi Tom

What would the rough cost of a tank from PEX costs, somewhere between oh my god and a valium ?????

Tony

Tony, The tanks would be relatively inexpensive at $50 -$100 each (good guess)

The mold would be the killer. I was told that my seat tank mold cost around $14,000 to make. I understand it can and has been done cheaper.
I was told that my mold was made with varying thickness of aluminum to compensate for corners and flat areas. This provides consistant thickness of the tank.
I'll bet there is a boat, farm or truck fuel tank that would fit the bay reasonable. I have seen some very interesting tanks at my rotomolder.

[gyroplanes]

Stan, methinks you got the tank location upside-down. Higher weight is better for NCLT

[StanFoster]

Tom- Me thinks I am right. My SparrowHawk was low thrustline meaning the CG is above the thrustline. Lowering the fuel to tanks under the cabin would lower the CG, bringing the Cg closer to the thrustline. Show me my error and I will slap my forehead and admit it! Stan

[Brent Drake]

Would using Aviation gas, be a quick fix? It contains no by-products.

[StanFoster]

Tom- I will wager a steak dinner at Mentone over our two posts above.


Stan

[Chuck Roberg]

Tom- I will wager a steak dinner at Mentone over our two posts above.


Stan

Stan, I think your are more correct than Tom.

But I wonder if lowering 120 lbs of fuel would make it more HTL than CLT. Didn't Chuck post a formula somewhere to figure out how much the thrustline would change for a given movement of weight. Heck Stan with your math skills you could probably figure this out in your head. ;)

[StanFoster]

Chuck- My SparrowHawk weighed 950 pounds empty. Plop my 220 pound butt in the cabin, and 120 pounds of fuel ...thats 1290 pounds at the CG.

Moving the center of mass of 120 pounds of fuel down...just below the cabin lowers the fuel from 1.5 feet below the CG right now...by another .5 foot We are only moving about 1/10 the weight down 6 inches...so it would only lower the CG a little over 1/2 inch is all.....but nonetheless...it would be that much closer to a few inch low thrustline. These are just rough figures..but if the fuel was lowered a full foot....that would then be about 1.25 inches lower. I KNOW that would be even closet to centerline thrust. It would all be on how the external tanks were designed.


Stan

[StanFoster]

Chuck- The way I understand how much the CG moves on any object is this.....

Say you have a cubic foot of gold.....lets pretend its 1000 pounds...which is roughly what gold weighs anyway I think...but lets say it ways exactly 1000 pounds.

The CG is in the middle of the cube at 6 inches down from the top or 6 inches up from the bottom.

Lets say we moved all 1000 pounds down one inch. The CG moves by the percentage of the weight times the distance moved. In this case...we moved all the weight, or 100% down one inch.... basically just lowering the cube one inch. But...the CG was lowered 100% times one inch..or one inch!


Now lets say we sliced off the top 3 inches of this gold cube....or 25% of the cube and moved it up with wood blocks that for all practicallity weighs nothing. What ever amount of distance we raise that 3 inch section....we move the CG 1/4 of the amount, or 25%. So lets say we raise the 3 inch section 12 inches....the new CG of this mass has been raised proportionlly by the percent of weight moved. We moved 1/4 the weight up...so the CG moves 1/4 the amount...or 3 inches.


Stan

[StanFoster]

Another CG shift example....


Lets say you weigh 250 pounds...and your gyro and you in it weigh 1000 pounds. You raise your seat up 4 inches. You are moving 1/4 the weight....250 pounds ......up 4 inches. You raise your CG by the fraction of the weight moved times the distance you moved it. In this case....you moved 1/4 the weight up 4 inches....Your CG moved up 1/4 of that ....or one inch.


Stan

[Chuck Roberg]

Thanks Stan, But now I don't think Tom will take you up on your wager.

[lanichol]

The mold would be the killer. I was told that my seat tank mold cost around $14,000 to make. I understand it can and has been done cheaper.
I was told that my mold was made with varying thickness of aluminum to compensate for corners and flat areas.

How hard can it be to build a mold. We got the resources here on the forum to do about anything. Got me thinking, there is a PEX manufacture nearby, I wonder what else they make out of the plastic.

[Arnie Madsen]

Tim, you hit the nail here.

Unfortunately there are not enough SHs out there to justify making a mold and forming PEX fuel tanks. Custom aluminum tanks are a good second choice, especially if some form of energy absorption were built in between the seats and the tank. Aluminum is easily deformed by load and not very puncture resistant,

Picture a nasty 10g, near vertical impact. two 200lb pax =400lb x10g = 4,000lbs. You have to engineer a seat mount to give in an accident like that , but not allow two tons of pax to cave in fiberglass, carbon fiber or aluminum.

If I had the time or was the owner of a SH. I would look for an industrial (PEX) fuel tank that would fit the fuel bay of a SH. Many automotive fuel tanks have been made from PEX over the years, I'll bet one might make a good candidate.

Failing that, if enough SH owners got together they could probably convince one of the aircraft fuel cell rebuilders to make them a bladder that would fit their application. You would still need to brace against compression of the fuel cell in an impact.

Next year I'll put together a crashworthiness seminar Powerpoint for the PRA web site and Mentone.

Tom

You are on the right track. Thanks. I have done many tests. Just for my own education. It made me sit upright in my seat.

As builders we want a fuel tank with plumbing to the engine without any leaks. We test it by letting it sit in a hanger for a day or two and if there are no leaks we give it a pass.

We never once drop our fuel tank and it's plumbing from 5 or 10 feet to see how it holds up. How about 20 feet ??

It is not so much to do with the crash-worthy-ness of the tank as it is with the pressure spike of the liquid at impact.

Take any 5 gallon container of liquid with an outlet line (fuel line) and measure the pressure of the liquid while it sits on your bench. It might surprise us. Use an accurate gauge which records the maximum pressure (tell tale gauge)

Now drop our 5 gallon container of water from 5 feet and record the pressure spike. Try it at 10 feet and 20 feet. The pressure spike will make you sit up in your chair and pay attention.

Push in style rubber grommets will never feel safe again.

Certified aircraft use substantial fuel fittings and fuel lines. Home builders do not.

I have seen the pressure spikes on an accurate gauge when a 5 gallon container of liquid was dropped from 20 feet.

Made me sit up in my seat.

I hope this is informative.

Thanks
Arnie.

Tom ..... as I re-read my post it appears my reply was to you alone. That was not what I was trying to do. . My intention was to support what you are saying and I was just trying to give another perspective of the impact pressures our fuel systems go through in a hard landing. Hope that makes sense. Thanks for your work on this subject.

Arnie

[gilgsn]

On my Hornet, I will be using a drag race fuel cell, which is also available with aviation safety foam.. Not sure about the latest, but if these things are designed to crash at 300mph, I feel pretty comfortable using one.
http://www.jegs.com/pt/Fuel-Cell

Gil.

[gyroplanes]

Hi Arnie,
I was told that Ken Brock took a seat tank filled with water and dropped it from the roof of his shop. No compromise to the tank. I have had to use a pair of visegrips and a prybar to extract a fitting from a grommet. I stopped worrying about them long ago.

I believe the biggest seat tank threat is taut hoses and improper venting.

[karlbamforth]

Hi Arnie,
I was told that Ken Brock took a seat tank filled with water and dropped it from the roof of his shop. No compromise to the tank. I have had to use a pair of visegrips and a prybar to extract a fitting from a grommet. I stopped worrying about them long ago.

I believe the biggest seat tank threat is taut hoses and improper venting.

Tom I think we should try that again but this time with a 200lb weight sat on it see if the result is the same.

[Timchick]

On my Hornet, I will be using a drag race fuel cell, which is also available with aviation safety foam.. Not sure about the latest, but if these things are designed to crash at 300mph, I feel pretty comfortable using one.
http://www.jegs.com/pt/Fuel-Cell

Gil.

I wonder if those fuel cells could be mounted under the seats in an RAF/Sparowhawk? One under each seat. Seat support brackets would have to be made to support the weight of the pilot.

[ScoutPilot]

On behalf of the members of the Minnesota Rotorcraft Club/PRA Chapter 17 we would like to pass on our sincere condolences to the Lunceford family and friends.

Our thoughts and prayers are with you...

[ScoutPilot]

I have often thought about fuel cells and their placement on any enclosed or partially enclosed gyro. Aircraft survivability would be drastically increased if the fuel tanks or cells could be placed outside of the cabin area. Unfortunately when a fuel tank or cell is ruptured inside an enclosed area the results are usually not in the pilot and passengers favor. I have lost several friends in military helicopter accidents and most of them have perished from post-fire situations.

Nomex clothing will buy you a little time if worn correctly however most burns when wearing Nomex were due to improper fitment to protect exposed skin.

Best regards and fly safe,

Chuck Freese
President
Minnesota Rotorcraft Club
PRA Chapter 17