Raf rotor blade cracks!!!!!!!!!!

[Aussie_Paul]

*****landed the red machine after ********complained of excess cabin shake. Cracks were found on the trailing edge of the hub bar on both ends. One crack went through the hole and into the center of the bar. Only 50% of the bar was solid as far as we could tell by eye. The other crack did not go quite as far. They look to have started under the sharp corners of the steel straps. Less than 500 hours on the bar. :eek:

Aussie Paul. :)

[scottessex]

DANG! You guys were lucky, lucky you found it, and lucky it held together!!

I wonder if a smoother radius would prevent something like that?

[Victor Duarte]

deadly issue fortunately avoided

wow paul, you escaped a tragic issue :eek:

i m amazed that RAF, with the facilities they have, are not able to detect that kind of weakness.

i m not a machining pro, but i know for shure, a sharp concave edge in a flexing-stress part is a NO-NO. a progressive taper or smoothed transition from hub to blade grip should be more appropriate... i really wonder what these guys do ? in Solidworks you can easily see that the weak points will be there :eek:

if you re curious, thats why i design my blades whithout this kind of blade grip...
all the mounts i see are, for me, archaic ones. no evolution since bensen

you re really lucky paul, that the creeks didnt fail and you took the good decision to land.

glad to know your still there !
cheers

cheers

[birdy]

F####.!!!!!!!!!!!
You 'n' me don't usualy see eye to eye often Paul,but I'm glad that ### didn't bite you.
Those hub bars are one of the reasons I changed blades.I didn't like the 'look' of them.

[Victor Duarte]

i guess a manufactuer is gonna get some "bird-names" by mail :D :D
tell me if i m wrong but dont RAF have a "certified" gyro ?

i passed the info to a french friend of mine that is trying to have his RAF rated as "ultra-light" and on his opinion, it s technical an financial endless pit.

with the facilities some people have here, i m surprised no one could manufacture a full composites hub bar, much more failure tolerant..

[quadrirotor]

:eek: Paul, did you use the hub bar with the Raf blades or with your kind? :eek:

[gyromike]

Close call Paul!
Glad ya'll made it down okay.

Just looking at that picture gave me goose-bumps!

[Rando]

I would bet that RAF will blame it on the hybrid (red machine) and not the hub bar!

[Brian Jackson]

Holy S**T! You almost became a statistic. I'm very happy you discovered this and were able to land without it fracturing completely. That's too close... I'm tired of reading about funerals. Shame on RAF for designing such a poor part. But perhaps by your near-accident others who fly them will be sure to examine theirs more closely, or better yet, replace them altogether. I don't believe I could trust a hub bar with a now-known design defect.

Glad you're OK man.

Brian Jackson

[Vance]

When I raced for for the west coast Moto Guzzi/Ducati distrubritor in the late seventies I had the crank shaft reground a few thousands on one of our Moto Guzzis to use Ferrari rod bearings. The pearson who did the work didn't put enough radius on the journals and I broke two crank shafts at the fillet. No one in the country had ever broken this crankshaft. The machinist only reduced the radius, he did not make it sharp like the hub bar in the picture.

It is amazing to me that there hasn't been more problems. Not creating stress risers is something most people that make parts learn early on. A smooth transition is very important. One of the down sides to aluminum alloys is it is how it fatigues. There is generaly very little warning.

Paul, as you know it is a combination of luck and skill that saved you to post another day. I have been guilty of not inspecting the rotor system because we were using the ladder for something else or it wasn't handy. I have done inspections when the light wasn't really good enough in the hanger to see this kind of crack. I am not going to make that mistake again.

I would like to point that these kinds of cracks are very hard to see in the early stages. From the time you can see the crack to a seperation of the part is generaly quite short.

Thank you Paul for the wake up call, Vance

[Victor Duarte]

There is generaly very little warning.

you re just right Vance, if some tried to bend an alu bar, it doesnt give a phone call before rupture..

there is a method much more effective than visual inspection, sometimes cracks cant be seen, and it s the BEGINNING of crack that matters, paul is lucky to see a half crack, indeed (paul, go to the church and burn a candle :D)

the method is the following : you must immerse, or spray a fluorescent fluid on the part, let that some minutes, depends, the dry it, then examine it under an UV lamp (black light). then you ll see where are the beginning of cracks.

i ll try to find the brand of the fluid.....

thanks

EDIT : search for "Dye penetrant inspection" methods and products
http://www.twi.co.uk/j32k/protected/band_3/ksijm001.html
http://www.faa.gov/certification/aircraft/enginedye.htm

edit 2 : just like doug said, there are rupture starters (red dots)
i dont know why they machined it like this.. just figure out a sheet of paper, entire, you cant shred it but with even a little cut, it shreds..

[Doug Riley]

There are actually three stress raisers on this part, conveniently placed close together to help the part break more easily. They are:

(1) A large change of section. The yoke that contains the pitch-change bolt is very rigid in up-down bending; the milled-out area that receives the straps is much thinner and more limber, forming a fulcrum that concentrates the stretching and compressing during bending.

(2) A sharp corner. People have already commented on this one.

(3) A hole. Putting one of the blade strap holes near the #1-#2 stress concentrators makes the problem worse. It both reduces the section area and creates its own stress concentration.

It's helpful to have in mind that hubs milled from bar stock don't have the advantages of a forged hub. Stock metal bar material has straight lengthwise grain, like good wood. When you cut into it to make a bar of varying thickness, you expose "end grain." The metal cracks more readily at such an exposed grain edge. A forged hub could be made with grain that follows the contours of the part -- but it would cost much more.

This kind of design would cause trouble even with a forged hub, however.

[Brian Jackson]

Would x-raying parts reveal early stages of cracking? Or would the part already have to be cracked for an x-ray to detect anything? I ask because a heli pilot friend recently had his Bell 47 grounded until he replaced his blade grips, which he'd just had x-rayed and showed no signs of fatigue.

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

W O W !!!

How in hell do you get a gyro off the ground Paul with the weight of all those horseshoes up your ass??

Anyhow you are still with us and that is all that matters.

In the early ninties I was booked to fly with Duane Hunn at Brookville, I did a walk around and found a cracked hub bar.

Duane phoned RAF and they sent a new hub bar. Of course I never went flying in it after that.

There was zero communications with the RAF owners until I raised proper hell about the coverup. It was a long time ago but I'll never forget the pressure that was put on me to shut the f.ck up. It would not take much research to find out how long it was between RAF knowing they had a flawed design in the hub bar and their sending out a letter informing everyone........

So come on all you RAF supporters, lets hear your side.

How about it Duane?

Maybe you can explain this?

Chuck E.

[Victor Duarte]

brian, i m not shure of that but Xray inspection is mainly used to control weldings or ferrous metals.. maybe i m wrong.

what i m shure about is that my ex GF's father owned 6 Bell 47, and i helped him in mantenance during 3 years, he never made an Xray exam but we performed a few times "Dye penetrant inspection" on blade grips, tilting parts, some gearbox parts , compasses and swashplate... sorry i cant recall the brand of the fluid... but it was green and fluo
but "Aimé Fabregat" was (is ?) one of the only certified workshop for B47 full maintenance in france...

thanks

nb : this is this person who teatched me to fly and overall teatched me what you can read in my signature, i was asking "who's the better helico pilot in france ?" .. he has more than 10 000 hrs if i remember

[skyguynca]

X-Rays will show cracks and internal damage in aluminum. During my military career I had working in the NDI department in one of my units. My job for 6 months was taking our BlackHawk aluminum wheels to the local army hospital to the x-ray department. We got the films and determined if the rims had internal flaws or small cracks to determine airworthy or not.

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

Zeeoo :

There is nothing amazing about why RAF can't design a safe machine.

Peter Haseloh is a truck mechanic with zero understanding of aircraft.

Don LaFleur is a conn artist with zero understanding of aircraft.

RAF should have been sued out of business years ago.

Chuck E.

[Victor Duarte]

Chuck, not being a gyro pilot (yet),
i certainly understood the facts you tellme.
just reading about RAF here, i wouldnt buy one..
yes this part really looks poor engineered,
but my opinion, i repeat it, is that all the short and flat blade grips on flat blades are a potential source of failure (there was a thread here about vortech blades on a mini 500)

i think a new design, not revolutionnary but well engineered really should rise up in replacement of all the hub bars, you guys are ready to pay 2 or 3 000 $ for a complete rotor, for the price... i would expect more than a bensen-time design..
that s why i want to design my own blades, i posted a thread for this..

when money forgets the man-value and the competences required.... not a good thing..

Thanks chuck

EDIT : apologizes to BRIAN and DAVID, i was wrong about Xray, now i know, thanks

[quadrirotor]

Before blaming someone, i would like to know more about that. I am not pro-RAF or against RAF: i am pro truth...
Paul, did you use your R&D blades or RAF-blades? did you change anything in the mast system? all that rig in is tuned with tries and errors and with time: If you change anything: this is a new R&D project and you can expect anything could append!...

[scottessex]

Sherwin williams makes a "dye check" that works well.

[LARRYEBOYER]

I'm sure RAF put a letter out on it's blades and the hubbar as a change up item at 500 hrs. I'll get the notice and post it.

[GyroRon]

Before blaming someone, i would like to know more about that. I am not pro-RAF or against RAF: i am pro truth...
Paul, did you use your R&D blades or RAF-blades? did you change anything in the mast system? all that rig in is tuned with tries and errors and with time: If you change anything: this is a new R&D project and you can expect anything could append!...


EXACTLY!!!! Paul give us more info....

[Vance]

Doug explained exactly what is wrong with the design. It is not best practice to make such errors. I beleive that his observations would fall well outside of what would be called opinions.

It is my opinion that the reason that this hasn't come up more is because most Expermantal aircraft don't fly very many hours per year. For most people 500 hours would be ten years of flying.

I beleive that the point here is to remind everyone to inspect critical components often and replace them on time. Cycles are what caused the cracks. Bad design just makes it happen sooner or makes the part heavy. You can't tell how many cycles a part has had by looking at it.

I have seen documention on more than one RAF and I haven't seen that life limit. That doesn't mean that RAF doesn't have the limit, only that most people are a little haphazard about their paper work or even that I didn't pay enough attention. I feel that paying attention to critical components is very important. I would have trouble enjoying my flight if I hadn't done everything I could to maintain and inspect the machine. Thank you, Vance

[KenSandyEggo]

While you're checking the non-radiused parts of the hub-bar, do the same on the big reduction plate. I had mine crack as did many others over the years. I have some dye-penetrant in my hangar that I used when I had the RAF rotors and bar. I'll get the brand name and post it later. But like someone said, from beginning of crack to breakage can be a short time. Your crack may start a day after you check it.

I believe RAF has put a 500 hour life-limit on their bars and blades, which is unheard of in the gyro industry. A poor design is a poor design as was so clearly described here. I wouldn't see how different blades would have anything to do with it. Even if they shook like crazy (wait a minute...a lot of RAF blades do anyway) a hub-bar should be designed to withstand almost anything. Non-radiused turns and cross-cuts as Doug and Victor described are just plain ignorant design work. All they would have had to do was have a first-year engineering student at the bottom of his class that skipped classes half the time at the University of Saskatchewan or wherever take a look at it and go "Yikes!"

If you put Michelin tires on your car and a wheel falls off, I don't think you can blame the tires. What are you going to say if you have RAF blades and bar and Paul was flying different blades? "Oh, he was flying non-RAF blades, so I don't have to worry about it." I don't think that would be a good idea. It has been clearly pointed out in detail here that the RAF hub-bar is poorly designed, even if they're holding RAF blades. This poor design has been pointed out before on Norm's Forum, many years ago.

[Vance]

Hi Ken, Different baldes put different loads on the hub bar and the life span is changed. I don't think that is reasonable to expect RAF to anticipate someone using different blades and I beleive they are carefull to recomend against that.

I don't think of the big reduction plate as quite so critical to flight saftey. That does not excuse the bad design.

Ken, I sure hope that I don't ever get on your bad side. Thank you, Vance

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

I can't believe the comments here in an effort to smoke and mirror the fact that RAF

"Are not capable of designing any component that is safe for any flying machine.".


To try and fuzzy this fact with statements such as these idiots put a five hundred hour life on their blades and hub bar is incredible.

If they do not have the ability to design a component as critical as a hub bar that can last longer than five hundred hours how in hell can you have any faith in their five hundred hour life time?

How did they arrive at that number?

Chuck E.

[Victor Duarte]

here's an info i got from a tech crew on choppers , he told me thats the product he uses for dye penetrant inspection :

http://www.corvib.com/ardrox/

cheers

[quadrirotor]

http://www.wicksaircraft.com/catalog/product_cat.php/subid=3244/index.html
http://www.vjt.com/products.asp?title=Aerospace

[bones]

Paul also why nothing about this on the Aussie site (yet) ???

[Jerseywing]

While in the the Navy I was trained as a nuclear grade welder ( we all had second specialties on the Sub.) We used a dye penetrant that didn't require a light. It was a red dye that was applied to the surface, allowed to stand for 5 minutes then wiped off. A white developer was then applied and any red would stand out real clear. A magnifying glass would help too. Any hard edge is a stress point thus the reason for fillets and rounds. Metal may brittle fracture due to defects These defects can be the result of impurities (carbon atoms in cast iron - also known as interstitial defects), overheating, overcooling, or creating a stress point from machining a sharp edge into the grain of metal. This defect will cause a brittle fracture (Cracking) of the metal instead of a ductile failure (Bending or distortion). One of the destructive tests done on metal is called a Charpy V notch test where a notch is cut into a test piece and then struck with a hammer (actually a pendulum) to determine it's brittle fracture point. Without the Vee it will deform, with the Vee it breaks. The result of poor machining/design is that a Vee is created for you...Thank god you found it

[Victor Duarte]

big up , michael, for this very interesting explanation, a pleasure
i see in your profile you have a RAF, what will be your reaction ? and what do you spot on preflight ?
thanks

[automan1223]

Paul, Whew.

Thats one for the poop sheets.

You say your blades were about 500 hours old.

How many years is that ?

Did they hold raf blades ?

How many ft ?

How heavy is your gyro ?

What rotor RPM do you average ?

How were the blades supported when not in use ?

Did they get flapped recently ? ever ?

This is the first time I have heard of a hub bar failing in this way.

Let us know what RAF has to say.

If they in fact do want them changed in 500 hours then I would half that for safety.

Jonathan

[Aussie_Paul]

.........Thank God. It was on a Raf in NZ. The owner, who complained about the cabin hop, has done training with me and I was to go and test his machine after they had modified it with the list of RAF mods that I have designed and tested.

I must say that all the "concerns for my well being" is very humbling!!!! :o

Aussie Paul. :)

[Aussie_Paul]

........ forum, but I emailed it to all the Raf owners.

Besides, the way it was interpreted, the clapping and cheering around Oz would have been deafening!!!!!!!!! LOL :rolleyes:

Aussie Paul. :)

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

Jonathan :

Something to think about.

First: This is not the first time that cracks have been found in RAF hub bars.

Second: How can anyone possibly fly a gyro with the most critical part prone to failure in such a short time frame? This is 2004 and there is the technology to design a simple hub bar that will not be prone to failure in such a short time frame.

I know these are experimental / amature built machines, however getting killed in one of RAF's pices of junk will not change anything, you will be dead.

Chuck E.

[Friendly]

Thank God, you caught it in time.

[Aussie_Paul]

There have been many Raf blades done 1,000s of hours and now a couple that have failed. Raf have nothing to do with me any more, they have blocked my email!!! I sold 21 Raf for them as a representitive and they won't support these customers through me!!!!! It doesn't worry me, just my customers who appreciate my loyalty to them.

There have been a couple of failures. One after a ground strike BUT the damage was already there. That ground strike probably saved the US instructors and a students neck.
Jim Buttler conducted some eddy current NDT at one of the universitys. I can't recall all the details BUT I suggest that Raf owners like Stan etc should really dig deep for that info. This is not in the area of Raf bashing this is in the area of safety no matter whos product.

Stan and others, do not take this lightly. Some hubs doing 1000s of hours and 3 that I know of failing at less than 700 hours. That is a very wide margin for error. To me that suggests some sort of quality control problem.

I realise that it could be due to mishandling, but IS IT????

Aussie Paul. :)

[automan1223]

Paul, Chuck and the gang.

I just wrote a post about my experience with raf and I gave their latest 24th gen blades the thumbs up. The only problem I was concerned about besides being unable to torque the big bolt without a custom socket and jig was the small dimple from extra resin on the top of the blade surface 3/4ths of the way down the blade. I thought that or I was at least told that the latest gen blade and hub bar was worked out and "not to worry". I am worrying now. I have a new set with maybe 6 hours total and if there is a gremblin or quality issue I hope we can find out the why of it. My personal opinion no matter what the time the factory says. I know metal fatigues on high stress parts and after 300 hours you have to be on top of things xrays etc. . I can visualize someone using the end of the bar to hold it during a torque of big bolt operation. Is it possible this bar was mis-handled ? or those smaller bolts over torqued ?

Eddy current NDT. What does that mean and what is it good for. ?

Electrical Destructive Testing ?.

Jonathan

[Jerseywing]

Victor,
I'm training in an RAf I don't own a gyro yet.
Johnathan,
Eddy current testing is typically used in tubes where a probe is inserted and it generates a magnetic field around itself. As it passed through the tube thickness differences in the wall or scratches/scrapes change the magnetic field and register on a scope.
Quality Assurance is typically broken down into two groups
NDT is non destructive testing - starts with visual to laser measurement to magnetic (magnaflux) to radiography.
DT is destructive testing where the sample is tested to its breaking point. This is used when baseline data is being established or when you have a batch system where the manufacturing guidelines are traceable to the point of origin. Then you would take a representative sample lets say 5 per thousand (less- 5 per 100 -if the level of criticality is higher) and perform DT on them to ensure they meet standards, if they pass then the "lot" is assumed to be satisfactory. In the nuclear world things are traced to the point of origin of the ore and controlled throughout. Every nut, bolt, washer and rubber o-ring has it's own paperwork, all equipment is tracked throughout its life and any defect or issue found can be cause for re-certification or replacement of all similar product-thats why it's so expensive. Kinda like aircraft parts eh?

If the failure rate is like posted then it sounds like the boys at RAF need to post an AD and re-think the design. Poor handling can be subjective but when it's broke, it's broke and there ain't no denying it. IMHO This doesn't seem like it should be a 500 hour part - it should (if properly designed) last the life of the blades if not the craft.

[StanFoster]

Paul: Thank god you caught that and you are still with us...ok? I appreciate the direct warning to me. I would be plain lying if this hasnt got me concerned. You guys all know how I love flying my RAF. I am going to thoroughly check my hub bar....and I am considering putting sport copter blades on it.

I remember just looking at that hubbar one day and just the look of it didnt appear to be a load spreading design...but instead a concentrating one.

In my business of building curved stairways...I bend stuff all the time and know how important gradual changes in thickness is as far as spreading strain.

I will at the least change my hub bar to another design.

I cant honestly say I will be enjoying my flying till I am satisfied this is taken care of.

Stan

[Victor Duarte]

heres a quick exageration draft just to figure where stress is..

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

Good thinking Stan.

Better safe than sorry.

Chuck E.

[GyroRon]

I have never liked anything about the RAF hub bar. The blades themselves are appealing in that they will lift a heavy load and they aren't very expensive. - Plus they make good wampa wampa sounds! :) - But the hubbar scares the poop out of me and this drives home my fear for it further.

[automan1223]

I have seen hardended drive shafts with grade 9 bolts snap after being serviced by dummies with impact guns. NOTHING is indestructable. Stupidity can and will find its way into any situation. Knowing just a few things besides, oh its a questionable design could explain a whole lot more. I do not know how many blades are in service. I do know that RAF would be guilty of murder if they turned out a ROTOR SYSTEM that they KNEW was marginal.

The hub bar may have issues when improperly serviced but does that make it a dangerous part ? Just because I cannot beat it with a sledge hammer and torque with an impact gun does that make it a defective design ?

I dont want to play devils advocate but Something tells me there is more to this story that meets the eye.

Does this owner mount his blades every time he flies or does he leave them on ?

Did he torque the bolts with light oil and a quality torque wrench or does he honk on a dry assembly ?

Has he ever hammered the bolts in and out to get the assy together or apart ?

We need more information. Nothing is fool proof or indestructable.

I was just talking about this very thing 2 nights ago. There was a L1011 that lost an engine and the pylon that was attached to a wing. Everyone was killed in the crash. The investigation revealed that the sheared bolts were a red herring. The mechanics took a short cut and used a fork lift to install the engine on the pylon and the job was not completed in time. The fork lift sagged overnight and the weight of the engine flexed the mounts and cracked them. Upon take off the engine torqued under full power and rotated up and back and ripped off the wing and all the hyd systems went to ****. Whos fault was it?
Bad design ? Operator error ?

We need more info before we romp on RAF blades.

Chuck why is this the first time I am hearing of crack in a hub bar ? I have been with the PRA since 1999. ??? I have heard of stress cracks in the blades but not the hub bars.

Jonathan

[animal]

Chuck, not being a gyro pilot (yet),
i certainly understood the facts you tellme.
just reading about RAF here, i wouldnt buy one..
yes this part really looks poor engineered,
but my opinion, i repeat it, is that all the short and flat blade grips on flat blades are a potential source of failure (there was a thread here about vortech blades on a mini 500)

EDIT : apologizes to BRIAN and DAVID, i was wrong about Xray, now i know, thanks
where can I find this info,I have Vortech blades on my Scorpion,and to say the least not hearing good things about them.
they do have great lift, but I am worryed about the long term use of them.

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

Jonathan :

I have seen a crack in an RAF hub bar. In fact I found it doing a walk around inspection on Duane Hunn's RAF before he arrived at the airport.

It was on Duane Hunn's RAF at Brookville Ohio, I believe it was the last year that they held the PRA fly in there.

I also know of one other cracked RAF hub bar here in B.C. , however I did not see it myself.

I was one of the people who put pressure on RAF to warn their customers of the cracked hub bars. They finally sent out a letter about doing a hub bar exchange.....long after they knew of the problem.

As to why Duanes Hub Bar cracked why don't you ask him?

I do know that they tried to cover it up. And I do know that Duane and Dan Haseloh really tried to put the pressure on me to keep quiet.

Chuck E.

[Dean_Dolph]

I haven't seen it mentioned here or on Norm's conference but at a PRA Conference somewhere around 92 -94, Ron and Steve Menzie had a RAF redrive jack shaft snap while at altitude. Fortunately the prop left the vacinity of the gyro without touching anything. I took pictures but can't find them at the moment. I do remember the break was about as smooth as is it could get without actually machining it.

[KenSandyEggo]

"I do know that RAF would be guilty of murder if they turned out a ROTOR SYSTEM that they KNEW was marginal."

They sold over 30 ignition systems that failed and that they were notified about, and they still kept selling them without saying anything. It was only after a poll on Norm's Forum that over 30 of us discovered we had faulty ignition systems, designed by Peter, who has an extensive background as a truck mechanic.

Not only did they keep selling them, they told almost everyone that called in about a failure that they were the first one to claim an ignition failure and it was most likely water in the gas or lack of carb heat. They said that there was nothing wrong with the ignition systems. One trusting fool believed them, and after draining his tank and checking that his carb heat worked, went flying again. He rolled it over while trying to land in a plowed field after the ignition system quit again.

Without doubt, they are guilty of despicable, dishonest and immoral behavior in more areas than one. They lie, even though their lies put people's lives at tremendous risk. How anyone can defend them and their shoddy designs, parts and immoral rotteness is beyond belief and comprehension. I guess even Attila, Mussollini, Hitler, Stalin and Tojo had their fans and apologists. ("Well, Hitler was a pretty good Joe. He never threw me or my family into an oven.")

[KenSandyEggo]

"I haven't seen it mentioned here or on Norm's conference but at a PRA Conference somewhere around 92 -94, Ron and Steve Menzie had a RAF redrive jack shaft snap while at altitude. Fortunately the prop left the vacinity of the gyro without touching anything. I took pictures but can't find them at the moment. I do remember the break was about as smooth as is it could get without actually machining it."

That's why anyone with any sense will do the Jim Butler designed upgrade. I can E-mail engineer-drawn specs to anyone that wants to avail themselves of them. And get this.....they're free.

[KenSandyEggo]

Vance posted:

"I don't think of the big reduction plate as quite so critical to flight saftey."

Vance, now you got me P.O.-ed and I better not ever come face-to-face with you at some..........just kidding. I disagree. If that thing starts chucking chunks of aluminum, they will go right into the prop, and quite a few critical components are reliant on that thing staying together....like just about the whole redrive system and starter.

Vance, no one that posts here is on my bad side....honest. When I hear crap that RAF pulls, I've been known to take it out on the message-bearer rather than the source, like Jersey Wing. It's not right and I've vowed to never ever do that again, at least 28 times now. All I can do is apologize again to Jersey Wing and anyone else that I jumped on. I'm not trying to be an ass, but the safety issues are a great concern to me and when I read of someone trying to blow smoke up someone's ass, I don't always think in a polite manner for awhile, as it makes me livid when I hear of people or companies showing a total disregard for other people's safety and lives by telling them bull**** that could kill them. I will try to do better in the future and I hope there are no hard feelings. I didn't mean to be so caustic and insensitive and I apologize. :o

[Vance]

Ken, I stand corrected. Thank you, Vance

[mceagle]

Paul, thanks for bringing this hub bar failure to our attention. In my opinion the occupant/s would surely have died the next flight. Its a terrible thought. I wonder how many others out there are either cracked or about to crack. I mentioned on this forum after a previous failure, that the only surprising thing is that it hasn't happened sooner,
The 500 hr life too is worrying also. To give a 1.5 safety margin you would have to limit the blades to 333 hr then allowing for manner operated and the "scatter factor" in the failure analysis of aluminium, would bring that figure down to something that would scare the sh.. out of any serious RAF Bladed Pilot.

[Victor Duarte]

where can I find this info,I have Vortech blades on my Scorpion,and to say the least not hearing good things about them.
they do have great lift, but I am worryed about the long term use of them.

tim, i performed a search, it s in the archives, and SORRY it was Dragonwings, not vortech

http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-2323.html

i just quote c.Beaty :
C. Beaty09-19-2004, 03:40 PM
Dragonwings on Mini-500

First, I must state categorically that a stock set of gyrocopter blades must not be mounted on a Mini-500. The connection between blade and grip isn’t strong enough.

cheers

[Victor Duarte]

tim (mceagle), talking about failure analisis, i performed it with solwidworks, and, surprisingly, the hub bar can hold on good efforts (THEORY), but jerseywing explained very well the "vee" test.

i m just amazed RAF didnt put some hub bars rotating during a month (500 hrs) with fake blades, por balanced, shaking the mast, just to see for REAL if there is a source of failure, it s not a matter of cost for them but of will...

i think also an approximative design can be "forgiven" on an amateur construction but, if you sell as an official "aircraft manufacturer" you must have a serious quality/design control, or you are not honest.

i repeat it : get out of bensen's design, design a true tilting rotor, ask dennis fetter or other light helico designer to draw a light gyro rotorhead..

IMHO

thank you

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

The day Ron Menzies lost his Jack shaft was the day I found the cracked hub bar on Hunn's RAF.

Ken mentioned the broken jack shaft, hell there were several that cracked and RAF finally put out another recall on that part, but they moved to a bigger engine around the same time.

Very few of you were around when these gangsters first started screwing people out of their money up here in Canada, the list is endless.

I was subpoenaed as a witness for the crown in a case against RAF around 1994. By the way RAF was found guilty of falsifying of documents. What more proof does one need that they are liars and cheats?

Don is such an automatic liar even under oath that his testimony was totally disregarded in his attempt to divert the truth from the tribunal hearing the case.

In all my years of being in aviation I have never met such dishonest lying people as the RAF management crew.

By the way how can any of you RAF defenders defend Duane Hunn and Jim Logan's refusal to explain all these allegations?

Chuck E.

[quadrirotor]

Victor: "i repeat it : get out of bensen's design, design a true tilting rotor, ask dennis fetter or other light helico designer to draw a light gyro rotorhead.."

What do you mean by "a true tilting rotor"???

[GyroTyro]

Is there an altermative hub bar that one could purchase and substitute fir the OE RAF hub bar? and how do they perform in comparison? Are they as adjustable? Do they come with instructions for adjustment?

[KenSandyEggo]

Victor, don't be surprised. A few years ago, they came out with this "explosion-proof" filler for their gas tanks. They even got an award for it at Oshkosh. But, they never even bothered to put a piece of it in a mason jar with some gas in it to see if it was impervious to gasoline. It wasn't and started falling apart in the tanks, causing several engine outs by clogging the lines. I don't recall the exact number. Even an idiot would see if it held up in gas before stuffing it in all the fuel tanks that went out the door.

[Brian Jackson]

So much for R&D... Sounds like their's stands for "Reckless and Deceitful."

[Victor Duarte]

What do you mean by "a true tilting rotor"???
something like the B206 or at least the B47, teetering point a the up of the mast, true cyclic control, true undersling, d3 angle.

a rotor hub designed properly, a pre-serie for destructive tests
as Ken suggested, just ask 2 or 3 students in engineering to have a look, it's quite free and reliable..

there are alternative techniques to mono-block alu bars like sandwich or steel lamina, it doesnt cost a lot to have a reinforced progressive blade root.
a full composites rotor-hub is not only feasable, but much more reliable in fatigue, dont tell me the mold is that complicated and rolling unidirectionnal fiberglass around struts is not that complicated... even delaminating is visible or detectable easily than cracks, and much more tolerant before complete rupture. IMHO

thats an interesting brainteaser, indeed :D

thanks andre

[Victor Duarte]

Victor, don't be surprised. A few years ago, they came out with this "explosion-proof" filler for their gas tanks. They even got an award for it at Oshkosh. But, they never even bothered to put a piece of it in a mason jar with some gas in it to see if it was impervious to gasoline. It wasn't and started falling apart in the tanks, causing several engine outs by clogging the lines. I don't recall the exact number. Even an idiot would see if it held up in gas before stuffing it in all the fuel tanks that went out the door.

ken, you know i m concerned about explosion proof tank, i created a thread here, and rised a few ideas... so your remark just comes right !

dont tell me that.. :eek: even me, simple man, i would have the idea to build one, fill it with real gasoline, and make it fall from 80 or 100 ft in a fire, just to measure the time given before all it melts or really explodes.. and videotape it !

or simply open the tank, put fire and observe...

i ve the feeling they "sell" before test.. there are 2 ways to sell :
kick and run, and credibility, the first is very efective but not in time, the second is much harder to buil, but once built, it s undestructible..

i think they choosed the first... and now they run and hide..

thank you ken

[quadrirotor]

Victor: "something like the B206 or at least the B47, teetering point a the up of the mast, true cyclic control, true undersling, d3 angle."

You mean a true helicopter tiltrotor? but i don't see why the stresses would not be a problem...Anyway, you have the same problem at zero G!...and not the advantages of an offset hinged blades rotor...

[Vance]

Victor, At the risk of sounding ignorant, are you speeking of a Bell helicopter? A fully articulated rotor with a swash plate? Hinges?

Part of the alure of an autogyro is the simplicity. Reducing parts count and complexity tends to reduce cost and increase realiability. There is a feedback value in an offset gimble rotor head and some feel that it is a better solution to rotor control in a light autogyro. A two blade teeter rotor has an elegant simplicity and it even works well on something as heavy as a Robinson 44. It tends to shake on a truly heavy machine, but I don't beleive that is where our intrests are.

I think that a composit hub bar would be a lot of fun as the main loads are in tension and that is the plane that fibers are best in. I get into trouble when I try to understand bending or comppresion in a composit structure.

I think your style and use of the language is charming and indicitive of a fine mind. Thank you, Vance

PS oops, I confused Andre's post with Victors post. Sorry, The compliment is still aimed at you Victor. Thank you.

[Victor Duarte]

Victor: "something like the B206 or at least the B47, teetering point a the up of the mast, true cyclic control, true undersling, d3 angle."

You mean a true helicopter tiltrotor? but i don't see why the stresses would not be a problem...Anyway, you have the same problem at zero G!...and not the advantages of an offset hinged blades rotor...

right, stresses concerns are the same, offset hinged blades ok... but between, 2 plates holding a blade with 4 bolts and a true helicopter blade grip, there s a difference... gyro and helicopters having a rotor, i dont see why gyros should be stuck with plates'n bolts rotorhube, cartercopter, mc culoch, gyrhino have a true helico rotor... just mount a mini 500 rotor... even with a simplified sw/plate, the extra cost is shurely worth the perf/safety
IMHO

[Vance]

Victor, What do you feel are the advantages of a swash plate? Thank you, Vance

[Victor Duarte]

Victor, At the risk of sounding ignorant,
Vance i like your fine mind also... but i wont believe for shure, you re ignorant :D yes i was talking about Bell

Vance, right, i fully agree, you want me to tell it : the actual bensen design is the simpler for light gyros... no way to say no...

i just think..;with the amount os science, experience, tech improvements, AFTER bensen generation, i m really amazed a modern solution didnt came out... Dr bensen brought gyros to people, why dont helicopters bring accurate designs to gyros?

mm yes composites still a mystery box for me, we know the bend right, have good compression behaviour as long as the parts remain "simple", i mean, square, rounded etc... one you add fancy details, i think lots of fun to come also... i guess you have fished once in your life (i m a fan of trout fishing)
you got a plain fiberglass rod in your hands ? bending is what they are made for.... so, just imagine the fibers rolled between two appropriate struts, envelopped in a roving to avoid delamination, with an appropriate reinforcement to tell whet it has to bend or not... i believe it can be.. a lifetime part... just believe..

i would like to shout " dont let a newbie like me be the only concerned about new designs ! bring engineers, bring designers, where are you ?"

i ll try to draw something close to my thoughts...

pleased to read you , vance, you always spot "hurting points" ;)

cheers

[Victor Duarte]

Victor, What do you feel are the advantages of a swash plate? Thank you, Vance

good question, and you used the right word : "feel"

before, i mean by sw/plate every mean to control the pitch of the rotor, the actual works fine.. and you re right, the feedback (i asked here) is part of piloting... at rhe risk to make myself the devil's advocate : most helicopters fly without feedback and just do fine, that s not because you re used to an old thing , that you must not wonder if there is not something better (personally i stillprefer my old used shoes ;) )

where i think the design could be improved if to have the real point of rotation aligned with the mast, the undersling allows the virtual center of disk to shift, accordind to stick imput, like a chinese hat..

the adv i see in a sw-plate is you can control more than 2 blades... have a collective (for hoppers), adjust blade pitch whithout taking them off..

as you said..the bensen design (only my understanding) works because of its tolerance on light machines...it couldnt work on heavyer machines, an RC gyro works with a simple wood plank, but like RAF, some gyros get closer to heavy machines and thats the frontier where we must wonder if the light bensen design is still suitable...

and before you find yourself the truth in my intend (as a smart analyst ;)) : yes ! i would see gyros and light helicos melt together !!!! why ? because i would fly a light helico with the same rules than "light gyrocopters" in the FAA rules, the only way is to share common technology. done for engines, done for blades, done for instruments, done for props / tail rotors, done for structures, done for aerodynamic knowledge, pre-rotation tends to full powering, the only differences still is the rotor hub an controls...

to be continued...
thanks

[Vance]

Victor, we have hijacked this thread we need to move to builders corner. Thank you, Vance

[automan1223]

Ken that was not even funny.

I remember reading that in a few different places at the time of the award Let me get this straight....The folks at RAF, figured they would make a quick buck on the market with some gee wiz looks cool on paper "safety" thing and never even put the material in the environment in which it would be working ?

Tell me more about this ignition system thing. How long ago was this. I bought a used raf system off of the conference here. (Russ Kempka) Guy says its only got 20 hours on it. How many hours were they failing ? It is supposdly a new system. Maybe I will use it for a wall ornament.

I am curious how many sets of blades you think are flying out there ?

Lastly, if RAF and the crew are as bad as everyone here has been saying
WHY ? are they still allowed to do business ? Is canada that business friendly that they will turn a blind eye to what amounts to criminal activity ?

Jonathan



Victor, don't be surprised. A few years ago, they came out with this "explosion-proof" filler for their gas tanks. They even got an award for it at Oshkosh. But, they never even bothered to put a piece of it in a mason jar with some gas in it to see if it was impervious to gasoline. It wasn't and started falling apart in the tanks, causing several engine outs by clogging the lines. I don't recall the exact number. Even an idiot would see if it held up in gas before stuffing it in all the fuel tanks that went out the door.

[Victor Duarte]

Victor, we have hijacked this thread we need to move to builders corner. Thank you, Vance

right vance, sorry for all the others

[StanFoster]

Paul: When I read you post and saw your cracks...the wind went out of my rotors. I KNEW right then and there that I would no longer enjoy my RAF. I have heard of other troubles concerning the big bolts ...so this was enough for me. I honestly feel that I probably would have flown own the life of the blades without problems...but I know I would no longer be at ease while flying.

So....I am getting a Sportcopter rotor this weekend. I would not spend this money on my RAF if I didnt like the rest of the machine.

I also have been impressed with Kenny J's testimonial on his Sportcopter blades. I am told they are more efficient...smoother....fly faster....easier to adjust...and I will soon found out for myself.

Stan

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

Stan :

Say hello to Jim Vanek for me.

He is a real stand up kind of guy and you will be buying "Quality" . I have known Jim and his wife and father for many years, in fact I got my commercial gyroplane license on their MC. J2.

Chuck E.

[Aussie_Paul]

Great Stan, then you can continue to enjoy your Raf as you have been.

I have not had a chance to fly on Sport Copter blades yet to compare them to the Oz product. Maybe in the next few months. Experimenting is a little difficult at the moment not being allowed to use my home base airport where my workshop is!!!!

Great stuff. Aussie Paul.

[StanFoster]

Chuck: There are some other points about the SportCopter blades that just look better. The lead/lag pivot in itself takes stess off the bub bar. The hub bar doesnt have the profile that concentrates stress. I am sure the blades being made out of aluminum have to be more consistent in weight....although I was very satisfied with my blades. I had mentioned that my cabin had a little hop in in...but very minor. When my 270 pound son rides along...the hop did increase...but it still wasnt too bad.


Stan

[asmuzsr]

This is not the first time the hub bar has come into question. Years back, I don't know exactly how long, they had a time limit placed on them. I believe it was 500 hours. Then I believe RAF required you to change the hub bar.

Tony

[r.coplen]

Hi Tony,

Been flying the heck out of your Bunny Hugger--now she's a Ruby. Added more than 250 hours. When we did the AAI mod on your old RAF, AAI redid the rotor system and added the Sports Copter Blades and hub bar. The rotor head was redesigned by AAI. They do use stress analysis software and testing before they sell something. (And lots of aeronatical engineers) And than they listen to their customers. People have said that the mod kit is too expensive but by the time you look at all the stuff that AAI has fixed on the RAF I think it is a steal. I don't see why more people aren't upgrading?

[Mayfield]

All,

As you all know we live in litigious times. It is not my place to be issuing safety notices on another manufactuers aircraft, and indeed I can not.

As a fellow gyronaut, with some small experience, and with access to engineering support I can make suggestions and comments.

Comments:

1. There are many hundreds of RAF aircraft flying.

2. There have been few reported cases of RAF rotor systems failing.

3. Sometimes a design is intolerant of dimensioning tolerance stack up.

4. After Paul's post I asked my staff to look at the RAF hub bar design.

5. We found tolerancing issues that may be resolved by operators.

6. We found that if the tolerance stack up between the blade straps and the hub bar interface is slightly off, that the blade strap can cut into the hub bar exactly at the point where the hub bar is milled to a thinner profile.

7. This interference can result in the blade straps cutting a small "V" notch in the hub bar at the worst possible spot.

8. We will be issuing a notice to all our mod kit customers still flying the RAF system making the following suggestions.

Suggestions:

1. Remove your rotor blade system from your aircraft.

2. Separate the hub bar from the blade straps.

3. Carefully examine the imprint where the inboard end of the blade strap touches the hub bar.

4. Determine if there are any nicks, cuts, or gouges at this point.

5. In any case, you can, looking at both the top and bottom blade straps, round off the blade strap corners with an approximate 1/8 inch radius.

6. Additionally, on both the top and bottom blade strap inboard ends, round off, with about a .06 inch radius, the portion of the blade strap in contact with the hub bar.

7. You may also wish to carefully blend the abrupt radius on the hub bar from where the hub bar transitions from the thin section and begins to slope up to the thicker section.

8. I strongly urge you to buy a cheap dye penetrant set and dye pen the hub bar at the blade strap hub bar interface.

Now in english: If the blade straps are just a smidgin too long and the sharp edge of the blade strap digs into the hub bar you may generate a stress riser that will initiate a propagating crack.

This message in no way constitutes an engineering suggestion from GBA. This message is not approved by GBA. This message does not indicate that following the steps suggested by me, as an individual, will ensure additional safety.

I hope Doug or Chuck or Don Shoebridge chimes in here and comments on the comments and suggestions above.

R/S

Jim

[GyroTyro]

Is there an altermative hub bar that one could purchase and substitute fir the OE RAF hub bar? and how do they perform in comparison? Are they as adjustable? Do they come with instructions for adjustment?

.
Since there is no response to my question I assume that there is no Replacement hub bar other than going back to RAF.
.
.
.
Walt

[Doug Riley]

Jim has spotted yet a FOURTH design problem with this part -- the possibility that the blade straps will chew a groove at this trouble spot and hasten the onset of cracking. His suggested fix is much better than doing nothing. It's worth checking/fixing this area on any blade design, in fact.

In my opinion, though, the RAF hub is still a fatigue candidate even if the straps are tweaked as Jim suggests, because of the remaining issues.

Aluminum has some wonderful qualities that make it ideal for aircraft in certain ways. One of its less happy characteristics, however, is that it doesn't have a clear endurance limit: a load limit that, if not exceeded, will never cause the material to fail no matter how many cycles it goes through. The one-time tensile strength of 6061-T6 is close to 40,000 psi. Sounds good, especially stacked up against mild/4130 steel weighing 2.5 times as much and having only about twice the strength.

But things aren't actually that rosy on parts subject to vibration. Very roughly, 6061-T6's strength plummets to a third of its one-time strength at 100,000,000 cycles. A hundred million sounds like a lot, but at 2/rev on a 350 RPM rotor, it's only 238 hours. (Whether the cracks on Paul's hub actually came from 2/rev, droop/coning loads, centrifugal loads, in-plane bending, all of the above or something else, I don't know; the point is that we can pile up a lot of cycles quickly in a rotorcraft.)

Bottom line: when designing aluminum parts that see a lot of vibration, you have to use a very conservative estimate of the strength of the material, AND do everything you can in the design to avoid stress raisers. This means big, smooth radii, careful choice of hole locations, and gradual tapers from rigid areas to less rigid ones.

[quadrirotor]

Use smaller lighter blades so pieces will have a more specific strengh! the four bladed rotor must be considered for heavy gyros! :cool:

[automan1223]

Jim,

Thanks so much for your suggestions. If you are not carefull you can damage the ends of the bar real easy. A padded case for storage is a good idea when not in use.

My hub bar has a non directional finish on all the surfaces. I would not call is polishing but some kind of surface treatment. Maybe a blasted walnut finish. I do not know.

What are your ideas of polishing the critical areas to a smooth/mirror finish ?

Bead blasting with glass or iron shot ?

Or would you just suggest a mild flap wheel treatment to all the radii ?

Lastly I went thru the entire batch of paperwork to see if RAF lists COMPLETE torque specs. The only specs I saw were for the small 1/4" pitch adj blocks of
70 in lbs
120 in lbs for the strap to blade hwd.

200 Ft lbs for the main bolt. Which I do not know if they list in the papers, I talked to a tech at RAF....

What are your recommendations for the teeter bolt of

AN6 - 3/8"

and

AN5 - 5/16 Bolts strap to bar ?

Lastly my straps seem to have been generously radii'd on the ends prior to plating.

Jonathan

[Mayfield]

Jonathan,

The only answer I can give at this time to your questions are:

We have no problem with the RAF surface finish on this part.

When blending, a smooth finish is preferable. no gouges, pits, checks, notches remaining.

Sorry to not be more explicit.

Jim

[Aussie_Paul]

All the Raf literature that I was dealing with a few years ago said, "DO NOT REMOVE or TIGHTEN/ADJUST THE 1" BOLT". That is why there would be no specs in the Raf manuals for this bolt.

Aussie Paul. :)

[banaari]

Very roughly, 6061-T6's strength plummets to a third of its one-time strength at 100,000,000 cycles. A hundred million sounds like a lot, but at 2/rev on a 350 RPM rotor, it's only 238 hours.

Umm... I get something different:

2 (cycles/rev)* 350 (rev/min) * 238 (hours) * 60 (min/hour) = ~10,000,000 cycles
100,000,000 / (2 * 350 * 60) = ~ 2,380 hours

But perhaps more constructively, is that degradation to 1/3rd strength roughly linear?

regards,
John

[Brian Jackson]

Was the Harmonic Natural Time Cube (http://www.timecube.com) factored in?

[KenSandyEggo]

Ken that was not even funny.

I remember reading that in a few different places at the time of the award Let me get this straight....The folks at RAF, figured they would make a quick buck on the market with some gee wiz looks cool on paper "safety" thing and never even put the material in the environment in which it would be working ? You have it correct.

Tell me more about this ignition system thing. How long ago was this. I bought a used raf system off of the conference here. (Russ Kempka) Guy says its only got 20 hours on it. How many hours were they failing ? It is supposdly a new system. Maybe I will use it for a wall ornament.

I'd say it was 4 or 5 years ago. Mine failed at around 80 hours. I was over a good-sized lake when it coughed a couple times. I made it the 5 miles to where I was going. I called Peter from there and told him what happened. He said he'd send me a new one at no cost. I asked him to repeat that as I already had an ElectroAir ignition in my hangar to install as a back-up and wasn't going to pay anything for another RAF one. I'd put the money toward a 2nd ElectroAir...which I eventually did.

He sent it in a few days, I installed it and flew her back home. About 2 weeks later, I get a bill for $100 for the ignition "repair." I called Linda and told her Peter said there would be no charge. She said she'd check with Peter and be right back. She came back in a couple minutes and told me that Peter told her that he never said that. A bold-faced lie. I don't know at what point the other 30+ failed. Probably all over the spectrum. By the time RAF admitted the problem (how could they ignore it any longer?), they blamed it on their diode supplier.

I'd get at least one (two are better) ElectroAir system and run a separate tach for each ignition, so you know at a glance that one failed. I don't believe in running 2 ignition systems into one tach. And I strongly suggest running both simultaneously always. If the one your using craps out, you won't have time to realize what happened, switch on the other ignition, attempt a restart and all the while checking the wind and setting up for a safe landing. Running one is foolish unless you fly 5,000 ft. AGL. Same goes for dual fuel pumps. If you run 2 fuel pumps and 2 ignitions constantly, if your engine stops, you only have one chore to concentrate on....picking a spot and trying to hit it safely. No distractions from clicking switches and pressing starter buttons.


I am curious how many sets of blades you think are flying out there ?

I have no idea....probably upwards of 500.

Lastly, if RAF and the crew are as bad as everyone here has been saying
WHY ? are they still allowed to do business ? Is canada that business friendly that they will turn a blind eye to what amounts to criminal activity ?

Because it's "experimental." My DAR told me if I stuck an engine and prop on a big cardboard box, he'd have to sign it off."

Jonathan

[StanFoster]

Jim Mayfield.....I just want to thank you for your excellent comments on this rotor blade topic. The mannerism in which you conduct your posts speaks so highly of you. With guys like you behind SparrowHawk...it has to be a winning combination.

I was considering a nice set of Sportcopter blades...but they were spoken for...at least I thought so. This thread caused me to immediately search them out and finding out they were still for sale...so maybe it was a knee jerk reaction on my part...I dont know...but I bought them. I know even if my blades are ok...and they probably are with a more rigid inspection schedule...I just know I will enjoy the rest of my RAF so much more not wondering whats going on up there with that hub bar.

My RAF blades did already have the radius treatment on the plates...the ends are not digging in at all...and they are away from the angle change area.

Even though I really liked my RAF blades....my honest opinion is that the Sportcopters have several advantages...and they do have a most impressive track record.

Stan

[LARRYEBOYER]

I found the product notice on the hub and blades. The cracked hub bar experienced by Paul is not the first. In Aug 11, 1994 a notice went out asking all hub bars to be returned for inspection. 2 incidences were reported on bars with excess of 200 hrs. If cracks were found no flights were to be taken(dah)
A notice sent out on june 18 2001 suggests life xpendency to be 1925 launches or life expendency of 1000 hrs based on their research done by Dynamic solutions, Vib Tech Int. as well as Jim Butler.Their claim is is that the bar is 6061 aluminum and is the most substantial in the market place. But it is sugested to time change the bar and blades at 500 hrs. It suggests that vibration and and how it is stored and type of terrain flown from and landings all play a part in the integrety of the parts and it is impossible for RAF to give an exact life expendency. So they feel 500 hrs is the safe number. With the hub bar in question,I would be curious as to how the blades and hubbar were used as far as weight they carried , type of terrain flown off of, support of blades when not in use, and how many hours on the blades and bar.

[Jerseywing]

Correct me if I'm wrong but these things go for about $4,000.00 with the bar right? and if you do, lets say, 5 hours a week thats 4 g's every 2 years? Something wrong about that...for non moving parts-(they really are if you think about it) No friction or anything like an engine. The life expectancy for the sportcopters is supposed to be the life of the craft.

[automan1223]

You know I should open up a 1 900 psychic line sometimes.

Emailed RAF. Got a very interesting response. According to Don he says, I am refering to "derek" who ever this is,

Owner was the 3rd person or 3rd owner. How accurate do you think the time was kept ? 500 hours or 1500 hours ?

2. This is a biggie. Blades were trashed on 2nd owners machine. If this is infact true then we all should not be having this discussion at all. If you are that stupid that you would use any control system parts from a thrashed machine, esp a hub bar then I got a bridge, a peanut machine and those new atm / video machines to sell you !

Ask Maxie if he will sell you his crashed hub bar from his new raf blades ?

3. Inspections were never done, blades were left on the machine for transport.

This is at least what I have been told.

raf blades cost 2500.00 approx. usd

Jonathan

[automan1223]

Hi Jonathan
Your referring to *****s blades did you know that he is a third owner
and that the previous owner had rolled his aircraft . And none of the 100 hour
inspections we're done. And the blades had just over 500 hours.
product notice # 31 covers part of the 100 hour inspection.
ROTARY AIR FORCE REF:C/PRONOT.RAF-31

PRODUCT NOTICE RAF 2000 GYROPLANE


19 December 2000


NO. 31: •ROTOR BLADE STORAGE and TRANSPORTATION


CAUTION/WARNING to all RAF 2000 GYROPLANE OWNERS.


Rotor blades are precision components the handling of which require care, attention, and common sense.


•ROTOR BLADE STORAGE and TRANSPORTATION: It is imperative to store the rotor blades properly when the aircraft is not in use for extended periods of time. RAF reminds owners that rotor blades left on the aircraft with no support for an extended period of time can lead to distortion, bending, and cracks. Rotor blades should be supported when not in frequent use.


Care must be taken during transportation of the rotor blades. RAF reminds owners that transporting the gyroplane, with the rotor blades left on the aircraft is not recommended.


When transporting the rotor blades on a rack, if the hub bar is left on one of the rotor blades, ensure that the hub bar is supported so that undue stress is NOT put on the hub bar winglet, tension straps, or root end of the rotor blade.


It has come to RAF's attention that some owners are "flinging" the rotor blades as part of the set-up of the rotor blades. This practice MUST CEASE as this will put stress marks, scratches or could elongate the holes in the hub bar winglets which may lead to the winglets cracking.


Continue with pre-flight and post-flight inspections as laid out in the Flight Manual and Operating Limitations Manual and RAF 2000 Maintenance Schedule. See Section IV, 8, 9.


Add to the 100 hour inspection the following: Remove the rotor blades from the hub bar winglets and check for scratches, stress risers, or elongation of the holes in the winglets every 100 hours of operation. Repair or replace the winglets as required.


•NOTE: AIRCRAFT PRODUCT NOTICE NO. 31 •ROTOR BLADE STORAGE and TRANSPORTATION, Addition to 100 hour inspection. CAUTION/WARNING to all RAF 2000 GYROPLANE OWNERS

[banaari]

Aussie Paul: Are you in a position to get hold of (and post) the operator's own version of events?

cheers,
John

[LARRYEBOYER]

I climbed up this afternoon and took a hard look at my hubbar and blades. I always give them a once over but not the thorough look like today. Not a mark and not a flaw. I just turned 82 hrs on the blades. I always support them when in the hanger by a simple rope system. The posted notam from RAF makes perfect sence. Take care of your wings.I then went flying. They are super blades with lots of lift and lots of stored energy when landing. The blades make even me look like I know what I am doing every time I land. I really love the wap wap sound!In Pa, the leaves are at full fall foliage. I will take some pictures this weekend and post. Simply put,God's handywork at it's best.Back to the subject of rotor hub/blades. Mine fly great. Chris wants to fly my RAF's compared to his sport copter blades. I would like to try to feel the difference if any. Stan, as miticulas as you are, I think you jumped to quickly at the new's of a faulty hub.I would find it hard to believe you would'nt catch a problem before it got past the point of no return. Who knows how long the pilot was flying his blades or what type of care or abuse they had.Still, It is always nice to have a second set of blades. I have a 24th generation set of new RAF's under the truck in the garage and I have not even tried them on the older RAF I own. The reason being, I am happy with the smoothness of the 3 year olds.Hope to get the data on how the hubbar in question was used .

[StanFoster]

Larry: There was enough information out there to make me feel uneasy. I am anticipating more efficient flying..smoother flying..and safer flying. I probably would have had no problems with my RAF blades...but one thing is for certain...they need to be watched closer.



Stan

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

Larry :

Why don't you ask Duane Hunn, he is an RAF Rep. and he had one of his own hub bars crack so he would have first hand knowledge.

Let us know what he says.

Chuck E.

[KenSandyEggo]

Why is RAF into their 24th generation of blades? Can't they get it right? That's 24 fixes in a relatively short time for an aircraft component. I know how one "generation" came into existence. An RAF owner had at least 2 brand new sets of blades delivered with cracks already in them. He phoned RAF, and one of the female employees there (not sure if it was Linda), told him, "Oh, we had a new guy making the blades and he wasn't sure of the process." This is an actual quote from RAF. I guess the next generation blades were after he was taught how to make them correctly.

You guys that are bull-****ting yourself that you're dealing with a quality design, product and company are just whistling while walking past the graveyard. It doesn't help. There is enough evidence that the blades have had numerous cracking problems and uneven insides and numerous hub-bars have cracked. It has been clearly pointed out of the ignorant design parameters of the hub-bars.....no radii, cross-cut of the grain and ramping down from larger diameter to smaller one. The fact that they tell you to never check the main bolt should tell you something too. I would believe anything that came out of Don's mouth (A proven liar. Remember the "genuine Subaru parts" contradictions?), as much as I'd believe that boiling dog **** will turn it into gold.

[GyroRon]

Ken don't you find it strange that the only " supporters" for RAF happen to be also owners or users of their Products?

[quadrirotor]

A good answer to that!
http://www.gyroplanestability.com/index.html
At the end you have a conclusion about gyro problems...

[Ted Eggleston]

Gentlemen,

I have followed this thread with a great deal of interest, so much so that I've taken the opportunity to reread the entire postings again tonight. It does seem to me that we are in great danger of being accused of firing from the hip at moving shadows.

A number of salient points have been posted regarding the need for inspecting hub bars, potential design flaws, the use of dyes to check for cracks, the behaviour of aluminium , dual ignitions etc. However there is also a number of other posts presented, which are charged with emotion, which in hindsight taints their accuracy and as a direct linkage their usefulness to us in this sport.

The origional post by Paul, of a RAF hub bar cracking, needs to be carefully examined. Its a shame we don't factually know the history of this hubbar, for its from this that we could gain a true understanding of what caused the cracks. Is it simply a design fault, or a behaviour of the metal problem? Could it be that the hubbar shows cracks because of previous mishaps or improper storage and handling, or is it a combination of some or all of the above?

I believe that Mr Mayfield's post brought a great deal of sensibility back into this discussion. Let us follow his example. I am in no way supporting or endorsing RAF, their products or the behaviour of persons connected with this company. This thread was in great danger of falling into a lynch mob mentallity. Lets not make this forum, infamous on this point.

So gentlemen, if we are going to venture forth in the middle of the night to investigate some suspisious activity in the fowlyard, lets not wake up next morning to find we've shot all the chooks just because we thought we saw some movement in the shadows.

For those of you who are inclined to shoot first and ask questions later, well now's a good time to think of a reason to tell the wife, "I don't understand why the chooks aren't laying".

Ted

[Victor Duarte]

The origional post by Paul, of a RAF hub bar cracking, needs to be carefully examined. Its a shame we don't factually know the history of this hubbar, for its from this that we could gain a true understanding of what caused the cracks. Is it simply a design fault, or a behaviour of the metal problem? Could it be that the hubbar shows cracks because of previous mishaps or improper storage and handling, or is it a combination of some or all of the above?

ted excuse my intrusion, and i think you have a lot os wisdom, i am more a mad dog, probably due to my young age and the will to participate positively to some debates..

but , not to counter you, i think the statements above should be thought while designing BEFORE releasing something to the public, they look like prototyping work in a labo, but here the white rabbits are living persons... that s not the work of drivers to tell FORD about design problems after an accident.. and less again to find their own solutions, even if nothing can be perfect, agreed.

just a funny story about quality i ve been told by a FIAT people, (i worked in automotive parts sales) :

fiat, once upon the time, asked Mitsubushi to manufacture a pre-serie of turbochargers... they asked for a maxima of 5 % of unperfection, so ordered a batch of 100 turbo....
later...
they recieved a crate with the stuff and the japanes eng told them... "here are the 105 turbo chargers you ordered... 100 and the 5 % of unperfect you ordered, so we put them in a separate crate but we dont know what you may do whith them...."

cheers

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

Ted :

Any thoughts on a company such as RAF that has been manufacturing a gyro kit for about fifteen years and still can't figure out how to design a critical component that should last more than 500 hours, such as a hub bar?

Maybe its time to kill all their chickens so they wont lay more eggs?

Chuck E.

[KenSandyEggo]

How can one improperly store or mishandle something that should be so solid as a hub-bar.........unless you stretch it across 2 saw-horses and pound it with a sledge? I look at my SC bar and it looks like you could hang it up and suspend 2 small cars from it with no problem (and pound it with a sledge). Can one look at the RAF bar and say the same thing? Ted, you sound as though you are aware of only this single hub-bar incident. There were several, including two of their reps, Hunn and Brewer. Brewer was doing an emergency landing in a field (hmmm....and he didn't run out of fuel), and when he flared, the blade hit the dirt to the rear. Should that in itself have really caused the hub-bar to crack off and go flying away with the blade? Jim Butler smacked his on an asphalt runway and the bar didn't crack off.

There are some RAFs that have struck the blades and rolled over without the hub-bar failing. I know a guy that hit the blades twice on an asphalt runway (1 rollover) and the hub-bar didn't crack. I would offer that the ones that did break off were the result of cracks that had started to form, whereas the ones that didn't, didn't have any cracks starting yet. This shows a weakness in the design and perhaps as the blades, inconsistency in their manufacture.

The 2 Chucks and maybe a few others recall how I defended RAF many years ago on Norm's Forum. I was rather obnoxious and vehement in my defenses of them. Enough parts failures, component failures, aluminum cracks, blade cracks, hub-bar cracks and break-offs, lies from the principals of RAF and others mis-happenings came to my attention to force me to finally swallow my pride and admit that I had a gyro that was poorly designed and supplied with substandard components. Almost everything that I just mentioned happened to me, except the cracking hub-bar. I wisely got rid of it before it had a chance to crack.

I have seen thousands of military and civilian helicopters parked, over my many years of plodding along on this earth, with blades that weigh as much as my car and are longer than my home. I have never seen one parked with ropes, broomsticks with diapers attached, or upside down mops supporting the blades. Why would something comparatively light as gyro blades need support to prevent blade and hub-bar cracks, unless they were improperly manufactured?

If a company puts a life limit of 500 hours on a component, isn't that telling you that they don't believe they'll last much longer and if you continue to fly, you may kill yourself? That's what life-limits are about. Go beyond and you'll probably die. Do you trust RAF's numbers? Where did they come up with 500 hours and how? Maybe it's really 400 hours. Have they shown the past knowledge to do proper engineering and stress studies? I don't think so.

Peter told me that he did extensive testing on the ignition he designed before selling them, yet they started failing as they came out of the box, to the tune of 30-plus failures. (And these were only from the ones who happened to be on Norm's Forum. I would bet that at least 30 more failed of those who were not on the Forum. Who really knows how many failed, but it had to be substantially more than the 30 discovered by Forum-only readers). Who really was forced to do their R & D? It was us poor saps risking our lives while they lied about it to everyone. This incident alone should clearly convince everyone of their immoral behavior, yet some choose to close their eyes or put on their pink sunglasses and keep apologizing for them and/or defending them and their products, components and practices. You can keep trusting them and their components. I stopped a long time ago.

[Vance]

I have to ask, Ken, does this mean that you feel you stopped being obnioxious and vehement a long time ago? thank you, Vance

[Udi]

...we are in great danger of being accused of firing from the hip at moving shadows...
Being accused by whom? Firing? yes. Moving shadows? no - maybe for you they are shadows but for many of us they are as clear as a day.

...However there is also a number of other posts presented, which are charged with emotion, which in hindsight taints their accuracy and as a direct linkage their usefulness to us in this sport.
Emotion is human. The underlying feeling is mostly frustration with the perceived criminal acts of a specific aircraft manufacturer!

...The origional post by Paul, of a RAF hub bar cracking, needs to be carefully examined. Its a shame we don't factually know the history of this hubbar, for its from this that we could gain a true understanding of what caused the cracks. Is it simply a design fault, or a behaviour of the metal problem? Could it be that the hubbar shows cracks because of previous mishaps or improper storage and handling, or is it a combination of some or all of the above?
It doesn't really matter what happened to this specific hub bar. When engineers are telling me that a part is poorly designed and built -- I am not going to use these parts. Why use sub-par parts when you have properly designed and manufactured parts available? Save money? This is not a matter of opinion – it’s engineering.

...I believe that Mr Mayfield's post brought a great deal of sensibility back into this discussion. Let us follow his example.
Mr. Mayfield's openness and integrity stands in complete contrast with the actions of the RAF company. Yes - let's follow his example and give our business to manufacturers who’ve got some integrity!

...This thread was in great danger of falling into a lynch mob mentallity. Lets not make this forum, infamous on this point.
This thread is a good example of free speech and it's consequences. At least one RAF pilot has already taken action as a direct result of information shared on this thread. I admire Stan for his positive attitude and independent thinking.

Ted - you are forgetting the benefits that this forum is bringing to the Gyroplane community. These type of discussions have helped people learn more about issues that otherwise would be hidden under the carpet. I would dare to say that this forum, and its Rotorcraft predecessors, have saved the lives of countless gyro pilots.

Udi

[automan1223]

Solves nothing, makes people fearful and down right scared. Not knowing all the details prevents a thought out analysis of the problem. Paul was good enought to give a heads up and it has degenerated from there. Next time you want to go take a commercial airline make sure the crew lets you do a through check up on the aircraft. I am sure they will let you.........

http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?ContentBlockID=3deea14e-9868-4aaa-a48f-16ab614ab26e&

Cracks can develop anywhere at anytime. Thats why you clean them and inspect them ever few days of flight. 100 hour inspection. Bull****. That is invites complacent LAZINESS !!! Check them every flight. The hub bars and blades are not made to nuclear specs. If they were they would cost millions of dollars a set. All I can say is that I got a phone call from RAF and yes there is way more to this story than meets the eye or ear here. And I am not defending raf here either. If you think NO ROTOR BLADE set has NEVER HAD A PROBLEM or concern then you are living under a rock somewhere.

Everyone chill out and put the guns back on your belts and wait for paul or the (silent) party to fess up or at the very least give us more info than we have now.

This kind of silence reminds me about my experiences with CFI / INSTRUCTOR Bill Ortmayer when I called him about issues with his machine. And I know he got all of my emails afterwards.

As I am sure Paul and his buddy are aware of the discussion going on here asking for answers too !!!

Look nothing is indestructable or stupid proof. And no I dont expect my hub bar to survive getting run over with a tank or careless handling banging around in the back of my pickup truck.....

Jonathan

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

Jonathan :

Would you share what RAF had to say with the rest of us?

Otherwise your post has zero credibility.

Chuck E.

[StanFoster]

Ron: I am a supporter of RAF...or I would not trust it hauling my butt around. I dont get your point?


Stan

[Aussie_Paul]

...... of the machine with the cracked hub bar, asking for the background.

Ken, Gary Brewers problem was the blue lead to the ignition coil broke. Just keeping the facts straight.

A forum like this should also be a huge benifit to the manufactureres. Jim Mayfield, in his wisdom, I am sure is keeping a very close eye on what is posted so that he can learn, as I do with my slowly developing Firebird. :o

I don't expect to have to support my rotor blades when not in use. I don't expect problems from a "touch of the hanger door" with the blades. All excuses I am afraid for a lack of suitable R&D.

Unfortunately I have, and have seen, Raf blades whacked on pavement and dirt at full flight RRPM in roll overs. The hub bars were well and truly bent but not broken. The extremelly large gap between the high hour non failed and the low hour failed Raf blades and hub bars, IS OF GREAT CONCERN

Any sensible person would have to be thinking, is mine the one to be next?

Is that too much emotion?

Aussie Paul. :)

[Derek Zan]

Hi guys, now sit back and take note.

Firstly the information initially posted by Aussie Paul on the forum was given to him by a third party without my knowledge.

Now a bit of background on myself - I am a Gyro Senior Instructor, CFI and Inspection Authority on both single and two place machines, with approximately 1,000 hours time in air flight experience and I dislike politics within our sport. I have owned two RAF's and two Amax single place gyros.

The aircraft in question with callsign RCW is a 1997 model. It was imported into New Zealand by the then RAF agent Rob Sanders (also helicopter operator) who constructed the kit for his client - owner No.1 Peter Wooton. Rob also provided Peter's training in his machine once completed. On the 23 March 1998 Peter rolled RCW over on landing (a typical low time pilot accident) causing the usual damage ie Rotors - rotor head - control system - check plates - tail section etc. Peter purchased the major replacement components from RAF Canada as listed above but never completed the rebuild himself. Tim in air 41.75 hrs. TAcho time 62.75 hrs. Now remember you have to take into account the new engine run in time here.

Enter owner/operator No.2, yes myself Derek Zandbergen. I purchased RCW in March 2000. Bulk strip and reassembly took place and RCW was test flown by myself on 8 July 2000 (notice our day and month are back to front from you jokers).

All hours flowin in RCW since rebuild have been flown by myself as PIC. There has been no improper handling of rotors, ground strikes, hanger strikes etc. The machine has always been hangered at the airfield and rotors removed to transport gyro into workship in town for periodic maintenance. Rotors are always prespun prior to taxiing. Although I must confess the rotors were not suported whilst fitted to the machine when in hangar.

In October 2002 I became an RAF representative here in New Zealand as Rob Sanders moved on to other aviation activities. Now just to digress slightly for a moment I hear some of you guys talk about a hubbar for those rotors and a rotor for that hubbar, get out of here, you should know the rules. One hubbar + two rotor blades = one rotor system, end of story! So if either one fails they all fail together OK. I feel a hubbar should be serial numbered to match the blades, anyway this is a separate issue.

OK now for the incident, date Tuesday 19 October 2004. Myself and student Neil, following preflight inspection (yes I can hear you mutter, preflight!!) proceeded to undertake our first flying lesson for the day, a short time into our flight a slightly more than usual cabin shake was noted and briefly discussed ( had flown in three different RAF's that week, I think one may get immune to it). Anyway on completion of the training session of .60 hrs airtime we rigged up our inspection platform and proceeded to inspect the rotor system and whamo to our surprise the last thing I would ever have expected, visable signs of cracking of the hubbar. Was that crack there at preflight earlier? Hey I don't know, if it was I didn't see it and neither did Neil, as I have students perform the first preflight of the day as well. It just goes to show you can't be too careful out there. Rotor system time in air 412.35 hrs. Tacho time since new rotors 506.05 hrs.

Neil recently purchased RCW and leased the machine back to me. I am the registered operator and fully responsible for all maintenance issues. I suppose you could call Neil lucky owner No.3 then.

I say as we are all here to discuss this incident let us take the positives out of the situation and put them to good use. I hope everyone can participate on this one in a positive manner.

Following the detection of the hubbar defect firstly the manufacturer RAF Canada was informed followed by a defect report being sent to RAANZ, our governing body and also our Civil Aviation Authority because that is the way we do things here in this country.

The hubbar and rotor parts are being sent to RAF Canada for analysis and we have a set of RAF replacement blades underway.

Thanking you all for your patience, which leaves me to say don't rush things in aviation, take it easy out there.

Happy and safe flying.

Regards

Derek Zandbergen
Timaru
New Zealand

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

Vance:

Ken J, like me has an aversion to drinking RAF koolaid. Don LaFleur is no better than Jim Jones was and a lot of his RAF "Belivers" ended up in the same place as Jim Jones's followers

How does that grab you for emotion? :rolleyes:

Chuck E.

[Vance]

I was rather obnoxious and vehement in my defenses of them. I stopped a long time ago.[/QUOTE]
Chuck, I was questioning Kens use of the past tense. I ment to be funny. I am afraid I don't have much of a sense of humor. I love Ken's delivery of his opinion and yours also. No offense ment.Thank you, Vance

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

:D :D :D :D

[GyroRon]

Stan, I wasn't meaning you in particular. I was just saying that there is usually two sides to anything to do with RAF. Those that hate them and those that don't. In most cases, it has been my observation that the only ones that don't hate them are the owners or operators of there products.

Automan1223 is a perfect example. If you know him like I do, he would be slamming the heck out of these blades.... BUT... he just bought a set recently and.... well... you can figure out the rest:)

[KenSandyEggo]

Vance, I got it when I read it. A smiley face may have helped some of the others though (Hi Chuck). ;)

Thanks, Paul. I couldn't remember what caused Gary's emergency landing, but I did remember it wasn't fuel starvation. Wasn't the coil wire attached as per RAF's original instructions though? They came out with an advisory AFTER several incidents, as I recall.

[Aussie_Paul]

.....I appreciate you coming in and giving us the "horses mouth" info.

I would have prefered that the blades and hub bar went an independant authority as should be the case here. I am so glad that neither of you were hurt. As in most parts of the world instructors are in short supply, and you are an asset NZ.

I was one of the greatest supporters of Raf when I started with them, BUT, unfortunately my faith in them was proven wrong. I do not and will not let anyone bash Raf for what the are not guilty of, but I sure as hell will stand up and be counted for what they are guilty of!!!!!!!!!!!!

Aussie Paul. :)

[automan1223]

Thank you so much Mr. Derek Zan for your long post. To find an honorable man such as yourself is a rare find in todays world. I do not own a RAF. I have been following the RAF wars for a long time. A few points.

Instructor Maxie Wildes has a really great looking hub bar in his hangar that has about 5 hours on it. The blades got trashed during an engine out. If maxie wanted to be the typical SCUM bag and make some money I am sure he could sling up a set of blades on the old bar. It might be tweaked it might not he prob could get it to work no problem. but you cannot tell by looking at it. But I know maxie will never sell that bar to some trusting person.

(you still did not say if the hub bar WAS replaced along with the blades. You only said all new parts were gotten from raf. Do not mean to bust balls here but.... )

#2. once the machine was rebuilt how smooth did it fly ?

#3. what type of prerotato, how powerful and how often and how hard was it used, how smooth was its operation ?
Did the blades ever suffer an impact ? If so how would you judge its effects ?

I think we all would agree that training under a set of blades with students is a bit harsher than flying like a normal pilot. Prerotator cycles, etc.

4# I really admire your honesty with regard to supporting the blades. The hub bar is NOT designed to take bending loads without the blades spinning supported under centrifugal force. There is NO hub that is designed to take this. I suspect that if you talk to JIM VANEK at sport copter he would advise that you do the same and support his blades when not in use. This point may be a red herring over this failure but it cannot be ignored.

RAF is guilty of a few things.

#1. My new set of blades came with a 10 page info package. It did not come with the complete RAF construction manual because I did not buy a raf...
There IS information in the manual that should be included in the new Info "packet" if you just buy the blades. but is not. Now, is there something critical missing if you do not have "mechanical" common sense.

Bolt torque from the straps to the bar. There is sticker on the blades but those are smaller critical bolts. The hub bar to straps should be torqued to 24-26 ft lbs. That info is not in the info packet, only in the 200 plus page construction manual. Now I am sure in the manual it also does not say.... on lubricated threads, and in stages, just dont honk on each bolt and go for max torque, you MUST DO IT IN STAGES. 15*20*25 etc. It takes more time but that is how is must be done !!! If you are TORQUING CRITICAL components then you MUST excercise caution and patience and skill when snugging up a part.

Look. Rod bolts in a engine have a STRICT PROCEDURE. If you do not follow the procedure and some mechanical sense issues there is a good chance that it will come back to get you.

Derek, you also did not say if a torque wrench was used to remount the blades to the bar. I have a calibrated forearm and set of hands from working on stuff for 25 years. But that did not stop me from spending 600 bucks on a new set of snap on torque wrenches so I would not be guessing. Can we fault RAF for not selling a set of torque wrenches with every set of blades? You decide. And dont even talk to me about a sears craftsman torque wrench. They are trash. I think Ron Awad can tell you about a BRAND NEW one that was broken right out of the package and it was a good think I brought mine to set up his redrive.

Look, I would be saying the same thing if it were anyone elses set of blades, dw's, sport rotors, etc. You have to understand I too am a business owner and human being. I get to deal with the public on a daily basis. I can also tell you about 90 % of the public will LIE TO YOU with a straight face. The other 5% will lie with omission, the last 5% will give you the straight scoop. However on vehicles, there is always EVIDENCE that tells otherwise. You cannot lie to your mechanic....Owners have a story in their head, that disolves them of any responsiblity. They almost always blame it on something else. (why the car is broken) heck I have even been blamed for shoddy work.

Latest lie from a customer. I did a 4 wheel alignment and it was set up better than when it came from the factory. It took me 2 days with kits and sweat and hard work to get all 4 wheels set up. Remember I was under this car for 2 days. The bill was heavy duty. The car drove so good I was proud ! The customer comes back a week later bitching at me about my alignment did not hold. I drove the car and sure enough the car was dog tracking and the wheel was not centered. It also pulled hard to the right. I appologized to the customer and guranteed my work. I am a 1 man shop and this job redo would really screw up my schedule but I put it back on the rack and see what happened. I was pissed.

Before I get under the vehicle on the rack I notice a burning smell, washed tires, clean body. Someone cleaned up this car. I think nothing of it. I get under the car and angles sang and the heavens shone in the light... there is no doubt why the vehicle is messed up. There is fresh sod, grass, dirt, large chunks of gravel EVERYWHERE under this formerly clean chassis. I have never seen so much material packed under such a small car. There is also a 2.5" diameter tree sappling stuck between the exhaust system and the body pan. The rear toe hooks are bent and fresh with metal marks from a wrecker. I call the customer and ask if the car has been "off the road or off roading" they swear no..I ask them a second time, same adamant answer NO !!! ..

I tell them to come down. After I was done scraping all of mother earth from under the vehicle I had enough dirt to start a sod farm. I swear it was 40 lbs of dirt and a TREE !!! Now this customer wants me to warranty 800.00 worth of work which is not going to happen. I could call up 6 tow operators and eventually find out the details but I do not bother.

Now I am looking this lieing sack of crap in the eye watching for the "next" story to evolve. They tried to blame it on their kid who turns out to be away at school (according to my spies in the neighborhood). The moral of the story I have learned over the last 25 years, and yes I still learn something new every week.... is that it is a RARE person who will come clean right off the bat until they are confronted with the evidence. That is why I am so skeptical when I hear a story. I do not think much is different when it comes to aircraft either. Not to throw stones at my friends here but. I have blown a lot of people out of my shop. I am sure I have lost a lot of business because I would not suck up to dirt bags. The first thing they threaten me with is how they will tell everyone they know. Go ahead tell your friends, I say. Your friends are just like you then I do not need any more customers!!!

I know that sooner or later the truth will come out and that everyone gets their due when they deserve it.

I want to thank Paul and you for filling us in. Keep us posted on progress or any findings.

Jonathan

[KenSandyEggo]

Paul, the bottom line is that you, Chuck and I have never been accused of lying about anything regarding RAF. No one can state that something we posted was untrue or skewed. Everything I have posted is fact, not rose-colored opinions, which as far as I know is the same for you and Chuck. Whether we post it in a friendly, matter of fact manner or if it pisses us off and we post it in a more direct, harsh manner, it is still fact.

Enough knowledgeable, disinterested non-RAF people have backed us up on the poor design of the hub-bar and other components. All that the apologists can offer is to take us to task for being brusque or impolite. That doesn't change the facts. It was so clearly pointed out that the hub-bar has several basic design flaws, but some just skim over it as though it was never presented. They put on their blinders when something doesn't fit their preformed opinions and they refuse to swallow their pride and accept facts because of their investment.......just as Paul and I once did.

Derek, thanks for taking the time to post the facts here.

[KenSandyEggo]

Jonathan, can you address one of my previous posts in this thread relative to your advocacy of supporting parked blades? Why do we not see any of the thousands of civilian and private helis that have blades that weigh more than an RAF not having their blades supported? Why should light gyro blades have to be? It seems that RAF advocates support so that when the blades or bar crack and you have even one day where you forgot to support them, they can now blame the customer..........the preceeding was an opinion only.

Derek already said there were no blade strikes.

You're putting words into Jim Vanek's mouth. I wouldn't post what you think he might say unless you heard or read it from him. I don't know if he does or not. There was nothing that I recall that came with my blades to do so, but maybe I missed it or forgot.....a common malady of mine.

[GyroRon]

Never seen or heard Ernie Boyette say anywhere that Dragon Wings need to be propped up while in the hangar.

I think the RAF blades need to be supported to help keep the cracking in the Gel coat to a minimum.

[quadrirotor]

composite blades are sometimes spaghetti like!... :eek:

[automan1223]

>Jonathan, can you address one of my previous posts in this thread relative to your advocacy of supporting parked blades?

Ken you are a good guy, but how could you even begin to compare a 1-2-10million dollar helo to a experimental gyro ? And Ken, if you honestly think that there are no AD's on these 10 million dollar machines that would scare the living crap out of you because you are flying a more expensive piece of hardware then I got a chia pet to sell you.

>Why do we not see any of the thousands of civilian and private helis that have blades that weigh more than an RAF not having their blades supported?

ken go and see your local helo a&p. You will see they are made out of CARBON FIBER, and GRAPHITE WRAP. They have a titanium spar and a protective Titanium Leading edge. Helo blades are also 3 times more beefy in the duty department. They are a driven powered blade and they do not rely on autorotation to fly. All the attaching hwd is either steel or titanium. HELLO ? Tell me how this compares with anything in our gyros. its 10-100 times the cost. Maybe a set of skywheels starts to come close but we are comparing apples and oranges.


Why should light gyro blades have to be? It seems that RAF advocates support so that when the blades or bar crack and you have even one day where you forgot to support them, they can now blame the customer..........the preceeding was an opinion only.

Derek already said there were no blade strikes.

Not what I heard ken........i HEARD there was a "minor" strike. Ok, whats minor, what might or might not of gotten tweaked. Even Paul elluded to it in a previous post. re read them.

You're putting words into Jim Vanek's mouth. I wouldn't post what you think he might say unless you heard or read it from him.

SPOKE WITH HIM AS A MATTER OF FACT YESTERDAY BEFORE THIS POST WAS WRITTEN HAVE YOU ?


MAYBE YOU SHOULD CALL HIM AND GET THE SCOOP. YOU SHOULD not have to it should be a common sense issue. If the machine sits idle then you should support the rotor. If you hog tie down the blade with a death grip guess what might happen.

I do not believe I have to explain all these common sense issues. I guess I had a special childhood.

Jonathan

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

Jonathan :

I asked you to post and tell us what RAF said to you regarding this issue, I'm still waiting.

I would just love to hear what kind of B.S. you were fed.


By the way seeing as you are so hep on getting all us "ignorant" peons educated can you give me your opinion on why Hunn and Logan won't explain their side of this issue...I would especially like to hear from Hunn why he thinks his hub bar cracked.

Chuck.

[Douglas Riley]

Umm... I get something different:

2 (cycles/rev)* 350 (rev/min) * 238 (hours) * 60 (min/hour) = ~10,000,000 cycles
100,000,000 / (2 * 350 * 60) = ~ 2,380 hours

But perhaps more constructively, is that degradation to 1/3rd strength roughly linear?

regards,
John
Well, John Banaari, you got me. Serves me right for using a cheap 8-place calculator with a 9-place number.

However, things aren't great at 10,000,000 cycles, either. The strength loss isn't linear; most of it happens early. Kent's Mechanical Engineer's Handbook gives the following fatigue strengths for 6061-T6:

100K cycles: 31,000 psi
1M cycles: 22,500 psi
10M cycles: 17,500 psi
100M cycles: 15,000 psi
500M cycles: 13,500 psi

Current industry figures give 45,000 psi for the one-time ultimate strength of this alloy, and 40,000 as its yield strength. Although aluminum doesn't have an absolute fatigue life, a sort of agreed fatigue life, based on 500,000,000 cycles, is often given and called the "endurance limit." The fatigue strength does keep declining after that number of cycles, but obviously not as dramatically.

[automan1223]

Chuck, I am not calling anyone a peon. If I come across that way I appologize.

I see educated, no make that very well educated people do really stupid ****. Is it concieveable that the aformentioned people did something really stupid that they knew they did, and are too ashamed to admit it ? Of course it is possible RAF blades have spurious defects that crop on different machines under circumstances. I am very dissappointed that the bar is only 6061 and not 2024. Thats cheap bull**** in my book. I would also of liked to see more meaty blade straps, but bucks drives everything we do and the engineers slide rule usually wins..

Again let me refer to
Mr Bill, CFI, CFII, MEI, certified high school Science teacher. Ok look out here it comes....duck.

He is an overeducated asshole whos actions resulted in the death of an innocent student. He got numb on how bad the machine felt during flight due to neglect and his laziness, and cheapness and even had to know that blades were not right whether or not he knew he hit something he flew anyway. Raf contacted him several times about his blades/machine from other people besides me. He was too cheap even though he was charging top dollar for his services and training in a worn out piece of crap that should have been cut up years before.

I was not the only loud mouth to blow a horn. The only one to log it on my web page. How many CFI's are really technicians, mechanics, or good old A & P's ? And even among that group how many get complacent and stupid over critical ****, or just mess up and get caught by luck. Or have blinders on because they have a vested interest in their own bottom line. I agree RAF in the past has some troubling issues. And you will never catch me flyin a rock stock one either. However you cannot run someone elses life. My private conversation with RAF detailed everything that has been covered here so there is no reason to rehash it.

The ignition issue, a technical one. One that I do not know much about the raf failures, but let me throw this out to you.

How many times you listen to your car radio with the engine off ? What position is the key in ? Come on think and tell me the truth ? If you are like most UNeducated people that know nothing about how an ignition system works or what state the ignition module is in when the key is on there is a good chance you just turn the key to "ON" and turn up the volume because its too much trouble to click back to the accessory position. or you have a newer import and do not realize that there is in FACT an accessory position for a REASON.

I catch all of my customers doing this even though they will usually swear the opposite. Now what does this have to do with RAF ignitition systems.? If you do a key check and leave the ignition on but engine is NOT running you saturate the coil (closed circuit) that coil heats up like an oven element along with the module things get really red hot. Its called duty cycle. (the same concept can be applied for alternator/charging systems) Now lets make a bet and think if RAF wired its modules in a steady state, closed circuit with key on or open circuit. If it was wired or setup open circuit in key on they you have no problems, if you dont then lookout. COOKED IGNITION parts are gonna get you. I lost track on how many oem's put out reprogramming on the ecm or replaced the black box entirely the only diff being that one thing.

I myself admit to leaving my key on and cooking an ignition set on my own machine. I was checking powers and grounds to my gauges, the next morning I come in, bat dead, oh ****, new mod, new coil. 125 bucks ca-ching ! ouch...

My stupidity. How many other people would just charge the bat and go fly ? Yeah.

You cannot take the idiot out of the equation.

Jonathan

[automan1223]

Doug what is it for 2024 t 351????


Well, John Banaari, you got me. Serves me right for using a cheap 8-place calculator with a 9-place number.

However, things aren't great at 10,000,000 cycles, either. The strength loss isn't linear; most of it happens early. Kent's Mechanical Engineer's Handbook gives the following fatigue strengths for 6061-T6:

100K cycles: 31,000 psi
1M cycles: 22,500 psi
10M cycles: 17,500 psi
100M cycles: 15,000 psi
500M cycles: 13,500 psi

Current industry figures give 45,000 psi for the one-time ultimate strength of this alloy, and 40,000 as its yield strength. Although aluminum doesn't have an absolute fatigue life, a sort of agreed fatigue life, based on 500,000,000 cycles, is often given and called the "endurance limit." The fatigue strength does keep declining after that number of cycles, but obviously not as dramatically.[/QUOTE]

[KenSandyEggo]

"I suspect that if you talk to JIM VANEK at sport copter he would advise that you do the same and support his blades when not in use."

Jonathan, if you spoke with Jim and he advocated supporting the blades, why didn't you just say so instead of stating the above? By the way, I'm not being confrontational with you. I was asking for your reasoning why you thought the blades should be supported. I even said that I may have missed that in the stuff I got from Jim with my blades. It's just a discussion, don't interpret it in any other way. :p

Are Robinson blades made out of titanium and other expensive stuff or are they nearer to what we fly? I'm asking, I don't know.

[StanFoster]

Ken: I see you are on here right now. Did you eliminate your teeter stops blocks when you went to the Sportcopter blades? I put mine on today..and had to leave them off until I find or make something that will work.

Stan

[Harry_S.]

Your posts make sense Jonathan. Please continue.


Cheers :)

[KenSandyEggo]

Regarding the ignition system, Jonathan, if the switch is left on and the ignition cooked, would the engine start and run for 1.5 hours and then start burping as mine did, or would it be dead when you went to start up? I took off from San Diego and was in the LA basin when mine started acting up. Please remember that RAF lied to almost all of the 30-plus people that called in about ignition failures. They told everyone that there was nothing wrong with it, that it must have been carb ice or water in the tank. They repeated this well over 30 times, How long do you go before you realize there's a problem? 40 times, 60 times? Most of these ignition problems took place inflight, not when trying to start the engine.

[KenSandyEggo]

I never had teeter-stops on mine, Stan. You mean the centrifugal ones that swing away, correct? I did just inquire to AAI, as they installed their rotorhead upgrade on mine when it was there.

[StanFoster]

Ken: I did mean those centrifugal swing out blocks. Mine wont fit...so I just will do without. I was going to try out my Sportcopter blades today..but the winds are over 40 mph and gusty. Not a good day to be checking out different blades. :eek:

Stan

[Vance]

HI Ken, Robinson 22 blades are aluminum and stainless, Robinson 44 blades are all stainless. The last time I priced Robinson 44 blades I beleive that they were around $40,000. I came a little close to a hanger in a Kansas gust from the rear and I wanted to quantify how much trouble I was in. You are suposed to tie them down when outside, but I don't see anything in the manuel about supporting them. Thank You, Vance

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

Harry_ S :

What is your opinion on why neither RAF, Jim Logan or Duane Hunn will not explain why such critical components as Hub Bars manufactured by RAF fail?

From my own personal experience with RAF and Duane they tried to intimidate me into keeping quiet about the cracked hub I found on Duanes machine.

Don't you find that rather unethical of them?

By the way there must be someone who reads this forum that will remember Dan Haseloh threatening to assult me at the PRA convention in Brookville when there was an argument between Dan Haseloh and the owner of the machine that had the jack shaft break.

Dan got all worked up because I would not keep quiet about the cracked hub bar on Duanes machine.

Yeh the RAF group are a real class act.

Chuck

[Caribean_gyro]

I took my blades down today. I magnaflux the whole hub bar. didnt found any crack. now I saw some marks where the straps mate on the hub , but after cleaning was gone. I add more radious to the straps as Jim M. suggested. I did found a crack on the bottom of the blade on the base of the blades. It looks as gelco crack. So U sand it open the area and put some carbon fiber cloth. Tommorow is sanding and painting.

The only thing I will do in 6 month from now is to send them to get Xray. That is what I can do for now. Until money comes buy and I get a vanek Blades.
ChuckP

[StanFoster]

I mounted my Sportcopter rotor on my RAF today. I must say that the hub bar is much more substantial...and doesnt have anything that looks like a weak point. I also noticed a very even reflection of the airfoil profile as I slowly turned them watching the light reflect. The surface looks very friendly for laminar flow as they are very smooth. I believe what I hear about them flying more efficiently. The rotor angle is at a shallower angle of attack and thus has more trim pressure.

I am anxious to try them out and see how they compare to my RAF blades. It was way too windy today for me to be learning the feel of a different set of blades.

Stan

[Aussie_Paul]

... were on their "new" solid state silver alloy box, that was sealed with cheap acidic silicone. :mad: You can imagine what this did to the electrical components. I gave it to an aftermarked ECU developer and he just laughed at the "Crap silicone rusting all the components". The actual design was considered to be an acceptable way to, but not the best way to control the ignition. :)
This system did not have a coil. It used the crank and cam sensors from Subaru and the drove the Subaru coils to fire the plugs at the appropriate time.

The ground strike refernece came directly from Don at Raf, as well as leading people to believe that blades where changed and not the hub bar. Jonathon fell for that hook line and sinker!!!!! :eek:

As a Raf agent I expected to be part of the "team" knowing about problems and helping to fix them. :confused: Their agents should have the info that they have and we all work together for improvement. I could not handle having to repeat what "they" said without proof. Us agents were/are kept in the dark. :o

Derek will get a new set of rotor blades, and he will be happy, and no one will get to conduct the correct investigation. :rolleyes: Raf have the evidence, Derek has new blades, so he will not speak up at all now that he is the NZ Raf agent. Don will have Derek around his little finger as Derek will no doubt be struggling financially with the small amount of training NZ offers. :(

Raf is pushing hard now into low gyro literate/knowledgeable countries to probably help maintain turnover. :eek: I have given some training to a couple of South Africans this year, who mentioned that to me. The Raf is cheaper than the Magni and the Chyene, and Raf are homing in on this. The buyers are like we all were 10 years ago, not familiar enough with gyro knowledge to sort the "Bull****" (technical word!!). :eek:

Jonathon typed heaps of words and really said "nothing".

Fortunately I am too slow a typist, I only have time to stick to the facts.

Aussie Paul. :)

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

Paul :

Thanks for posting that.

RAF is getting more cunning than they used to be. Some years ago they were just plain arrogant and would have told the customer to get stuffed and that would be that. But now that there are so many people on the internet it is better for them to just swap their flawed parts for another set and keep the broken parts secret.

How many more people will die flying their product before they get put out of business permently?

Chuck E.

[Douglas Riley]

Jonathan: 2024-T3 starts out at around 68,000 psi ultimate, 48,000 yield. At 10M cycles, it's down to 25,000; at 100M 20,000 and 500M 18,000. All per Kent's Handbook, again.

The biggest problem with 2024 (well, besides the horrendous cost) is that it has really poor corrosion resistance. That's no problem with aircraft sheet metal because it's clad with pure aluminum that has better corrosion qualities. It IS a problem with bar stock. I don't know of anyone in gyroland who currently uses 2024 in rotor hubs. I believe Bensen called it out for his early wood-blade hubs and some other parts in the spindle head.

As long as you know the loads and do the arithmetic, you can design safely using either metal. Just don't bet the farm on those one-time strengths if your device is subject to vibration.

[birdy]

Bloody hell Paul,I'm blame'n you for my sore eyes from read'n all this crap. :eek:

A couple of points from a SCG. ;)

I understand how Jonathon feels when some smart ass cums up with a dumb story about why something broke and realy thinks I'm goung to belive it.And it piss me off more when he gets hostile coz I tell him he's full of **** :mad: .[It's amazing how many di##heads think I woz born yesterday.]

I,like Jonathon ,am a sceptic.Rarely belive wot I hear.
Theres two things I'll trust,my eyes and my gut.Both told me that the RAF blades were no good,so I replaced them.I'm no engineer,just a practical thinker and I could see there was alot of weak points in the RAF bars compared to others I'd seen.

The RAF manufactures sound like a bunch of basterds if this forum is anything to go by ;) .I'v never met any so I couldn't say if they are.
It's a good thing I'v already changed my RAF blades,engine,main gear,J stick,rod ends ,trim springs...................,talk bout turn'n a sow's ear into a silk purse. :p :D

I'll shutup now and let you blokes at it again. :D :D

[Brian Jackson]

...A couple of points from a SCG...
Birdy, just curious: What does "SCG" stand for? I keep imagining "Sacred Cow Gyronaut" :D . Your ranchers wouldn't be Hindus by any chance?

[KenSandyEggo]

I remember...."Simple Cow Grower."

[Aussie_Paul]

Birdy, you definately did not come down in the last shower, it was the SECOND LAST SHOWER, eh!!!!! :D

Aussie Paul. :)

[GyroTyro]

How can one improperly store or mishandle something that should be so solid as a hub-bar.........unless you stretch it across 2 saw-horses and pound it with a sledge? . . . .

Or have heavy blades hanging on the bar while traveling over rough terrain, or transport the bar/blades in a trailer without proper support, or put extreme "G" stress on the blades/bar while "hotdoggin", or have the blades/bar hanging on the gyro in eathquake country so they are constantly vibrating. etc etc etc :eek:

After you clear the hanger area do you taxi with the blades rotating or locked? Why?

There are some RAFs that have struck the blades and rolled over without the hub-bar failing. I know a guy that hit the blades twice on an asphalt runway (1 rollover) and the hub-bar didn't crack. I would offer that the ones that did break off were the result of cracks that had started to form, whereas the ones that didn't, didn't have any cracks starting yet. This shows a weakness in the design and perhaps as the blades, inconsistency in their manufacture
or materials: walt

I have seen thousands of military and civilian helicopters parked, over my many years of plodding along on this earth, with blades that weigh as much as my car and are longer than my home. I have never seen one parked with ropes, broomsticks with diapers attached, or upside down mops supporting the blades. Why would something comparatively light as gyro blades need support to prevent blade and hub-bar cracks, unless they were improperly manufactured?

You drive a 1600 lb VW and live in a twenty foot travel trailer :) (I'm just guessing) so the comparisons mean nothing. Why do they support the wing tips on the B-52? The natural ie working, state of rotor blades is to be extended and straight or coned, not drooping. To me it would only be common sense to support the blades and take the hanging weight off the hub bar while they are in transit or storage and when you put the gyro in the hanger it is in storage. I would NEVER leave my Crossbow drawn, the hammer back on my pistol or my air rifle pumped up as if to fire. I wouldn't put a sweaty horse in the barn or my gyro in storage without supporting the blades.

I was taught that when transporting the blades you not only support them along the entire length but you also stand them on edge to minimize the flexing the same was you would support a large mirror or large plate glass window to minimize breakage.

From previous postings in this string it has been shown that metal has a finite life. Why would anyone want to waste the lifetime of his blades or hub bar simply because he was too stubborn to support the blades in storage or transit.

You live on the shaky side of our country. where as I understand it there are in the neighborhood of 2000 quakes and tremors per year. That's 2000 major shakes that the supported blades and hubbar do not have to withstand. How many aftershocks would you get from 2000 quakes? Have you ever stood alongside a freeway (say I-15 or I-10) when the semis go rolling by? You can feel the ground tremble beneath you. Buildings are affected by that same trembling two or three miles from the freeway to thier detriment. Your hanger is on a large airport. Everytime a "Heavy" that lands it shakes the ground and vibrates your unsupported blades just as bad or worst than a semi shakes the buildings.

Please rethink you defense of not supporting the blades in storage
.
.

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

Walt :

So with your line of reasoning I should support the wings on my Cessna Aerobat when it is in the hangar in case we have an earthquake?

Please tell me you are just funning when you factor in the low level earth quakes in california and thinking that will weaken rotor blades.

RAF has been manufacturing junk since they started, how in hell can you defend these idiots?

Chuck E.

[Victor Duarte]

if some wooden blade cant stand rain it's due to a bad sealing, if composites blade cant stant their own weight maybe their building is too weak and the blade root not reinforced enough, if a hub bar cant stand transport of handling, thats a short design..
IMHO

[gyromike]

Why do they support the wing tips on the B-52?

Because they're full of fuel and have 4 jet engines hanging off of each wing? :confused:

Of all the helicopters I have seen, none are parked with their blades supported, whether they be made of metal or composite.
And I see a bunch. South Louisiana is home to the two largest Part 135 helicopter operators in the world, Petroleum Helicopters Inc. and Air Logistics. Plus all of the smaller field bases belonging to other companies.

If they could extend the life of the blades as much as 5% by supporting them, they would already be doing it.

[GyroTyro]

So with your line of reasoning I should support the wings on my Cessna Aerobat when it is in the hangar in case we have an earthquake?
If the wings on your Cessna flex as much as a rotor blade then you damn well better prop them up with something. I'd also suggest that you try to figure out why they are sagging. Maybe you lost the wing struts. I'd suggest a better preflight.


Please tell me you are just funning when you factor in the low level earth quakes in california and thinking that will weaken rotor blades.

Your trying to put words in my mouth, NO THANKS. Please tell me that you are funning when you imply that the vibrations of the earth in Cal is not a factor in the life of buildings and machinery. Are you as much an expert on the wear and tear of quake effects as you are with the sagging wings of your Cessna? If you personally want to try something, take a quart jar and fill it full by sifting baking flour directly into the jar, then cap it and put it on a shelf. Have someone in an area subject to quakes do the same thing. Compare the rate of settling of the flour from the two areas of the earth. In a quake prone area the ground is nearly always shivering. Take a look at a seismograph chart from S Cal. This constant or near constant vibration causes much wear and tear on structures and machinery in the state. A Gyro is machinery. The moment of arm between the blade tips and the teeter bolt is tremendous and can develop extreme leverage. Try stopping a rotor blade with you bare hands when it appears to be nearly stopped. Why cause wear and tear on the entire rotor assembly, teeter bolt, bearings etc when it can be prevented.


RAF has been manufacturing junk since they started, how in hell can you defend these idiots?

Among other things you don't read too well do you?

I think I pretty well said that a prudent person would take any reasonable precaution he could to preserve the finite life of the material of ANY rotor blade. The idiot would be the person who refused to take steps to preserve his investment and persisted in making/advocating biased accessments due to personal prejudices of the situation. Even an idiot would realize that the material on the top of a sagging blade (or in your Cessnas case, wing) is being stretched and the material on the bottom of the blade is being compressed. A prudent person would take steps to minimize this distortion of the materials. I wouldn’t call him an idiot.
.
.

[GyroRon]

If I had RAF blades I would prop them up. They sag way more than most blades. The Gel coat chips and cracks too easy too, so Proping them up would be worth while. The point Chuck and others are trying to make is that if the blades are as good as they should be, proping them up would not be needed.

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

Well Gyro Tyro I sure as hell don't need you to suggest that I do better preflights.

I guess we will just agree to disagree because if you want me to belive that earthquakes are a consideration in determining structural integrity in flying machines I will just let you go on beleiving that.

And just one more thing, your attitude almost made me tell you to go f.ck yourself but I thought better of it and decided not to.

Chuck E.

[GyroTyro]

Of all the helicopters I have seen, none are parked with their blades supported, whether they be made of metal or composite.
And I see a bunch. South Louisiana is home to the two largest Part 135 helicopter operators in the world, Petroleum Helicopters Inc. and Air Logistics. Plus all of the smaller field bases belonging to other companies.

If they could extend the life of the blades as much as 5% by supporting them, they would already be doing it.

A BIG difference is that these machines are much more expensive and are used for hours on a daily basis. A gyro on the other hand may be flown once or twice a week if you are lucky and maybe average an hour a flight.

If I paid 40 to 50 grand for a set of blades I wouldn't want to have to support them either. Thats 30 times the price of my blades.

Lets see, RAF says 500 hours per set of blades and I can buy 30 sets of gyro blades for the price of one set of copter blades, That gives me 15000 hours of blade time. If I prop them up maybe I can get 20000 hours out of them. Thats nearly three years of constant non stop flying, I wonder if my kidneys can take it. Can I get air to air refueling? Where can I get a discount rate on DEPENDS? I wonder how many Sub engines I will go thru. :D

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

Gyro Tyro :

Don't forget to factor in the possibility of bunting in that RAF.

Bunting will wreck a set of blades way, way, quicker than earthquakes. :D

[GyroTyro]

If I had RAF blades I would prop them up. They sag way more than most blades. The Gel coat chips and cracks too easy too, so Proping them up would be worth while. The point Chuck and others are trying to make is that if the blades are as good as they should be, proping them up would not be needed.


If not propping any blades would shorten the life of the blade then it would be counterproductive not to prop/hang them up, unless (like some people in Sandy-ego [sp intentional}) you have real deep pockets and just want to buy new blades :D . As I pointed out in another post just taking the weight off the teeterbolt and off the bearings has got to help some.

As far as the quality of the blades goes, from what I have seen on the forum RAF blades are purchased as soon as they are offered for sale. Right or Wrong These people are putting thier money where thier mouth is.

It just stands to reason that any sag in the blade is going to cause the material on the top of the blade to stretch and the bottom of the blade to wrinkle, you may not be able to see it but it will happen. As you said the gel coat may crack and/or chip. This is a function of choosing the perfect amount of hardener in the gel coat. Too much hardener and the gel coat cracks and chips when it is flexed, too little hardener and the gel coat is so soft that bugs/rocks/debri will embed themselves in the finish. This chipping would also be a function of temperature, cold it chips excessively, hot and your scraping/digging bugs. Excessive flexing could also be a nemesis of aluminum blades. If they are flexed too frequently or to excess they could loosen the adhesive or rivets and fail.

I and a firm believer that an ounce of prevention is worth Two pounds of cure. I will support my blades whenever possible if in storage. Even when I decide to change them for more efficient blades, I like Kens analysis of his blades. When time and pocketbook permit I will probably get a set, but they too will be supported unless my blade instructions says not to support them.
.
.

[Victor Duarte]

If I had RAF blades I would prop them up. They sag way more than most blades. The Gel coat chips and cracks too easy too, so Proping them up would be worth while. The point Chuck and others are trying to make is that if the blades are as good as they should be, proping them up would not be needed.
just as said.
BTW never seen a chopper with the blades prop up, they can not be suspected of approximative design (excepted r22 and UL helicos). even th russian MIL MI26 8 blades thats have 1.5 meter chord :eek: dont need that.
Maybe some should admit that : chasing lightness on the rotor and blades, need of large diameters, leads to have them a little light-built.

thanks

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

AAhh yes, the Russians build real brutally strong machines.

I flew the MI8 when I was working in Africa and that was one impressive machine.

By the way I have also owned and operated an R22 in my flying school and that also was a well built little machine.

Hmmm for that matter I have flown many helicopters during my career and never had to prop up the blades, but we did tie them down......

Chuck E.

[Victor Duarte]

chuck, agreed : russian > strong
just for eyecandy : http://www.helis.com/70s/h_mi26.php
I wasn't there to see 2 of them in fire-fighting this summer, close to my parent's house, but my brother in law, also heli-fan saw (and heard :D) them operate...:eek: and was just......just.....:eek:
and the incredible mi 12 : http://www.military.cz/russia/air/helicopters/mi_12/mi12.htm
if you tie down the blades on a b206, try on these :D :D
cheers

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

Zeeoo :

I found the Russians to be great people to work with and their aircraft both fixed and rotary wing are almost indistructable.

Africa is full of Russian equipment including arms and fighter aircraft.

On my last trip out of Africa I had two Mig 29's scrambled on me for identification, I was lucky, two weeks later the same jets shot down one of the airpanes belonging to a company I worked with.

The world is not all roses and bleeding hearts, after you spend enough time working in enough of the worlds ****holes you just may get to be slightly intolerant at times.

Chuck E.

[Victor Duarte]

On my last trip out of Africa I had two Mig 29's scrambled on me for identification, I was lucky, two weeks later the same jets shot down one of the airpanes belonging to a company I worked with

chuck, what a life ! plenty of action ! and you passed between the raindrops.. enjoy.
Russians are known to be a friendly warm people. I m curious about your last statement but, I m affraid we will skid to another kind of discussion..
but still writing this and that, a such experience is always interesting.
were you in Angola?
cheers

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

Yes I was in Angola, Luanda was one of the most desperately poor and dangerous places on earth.

The Mig's were scrambled on us in Dire Dawa, Ethiopia.

I did seven tours in Africa, some of which was filming for TF1 the French television company, I flew in twenty six African countries and some of the things we witnessed filming in the war zones I do not wish to ever see again.

I hope I die a natural death before North America is destroyed by the lunitics that are out there ready to kill themselves in the name of Allah.

We had better keep our fingers crossed on tuesday and hope that we don't get sold down the drain by the liberal left that want to "negotiate" with these fanatics.

Remember Bin Laden was working out of the Sudan, Africa is full of Muslum fanatics willing to go to paradise to kill the infidels.

Chuck E.

[Aussie_Paul]

Ron, Raf blades are not gel coated, they are painted. That's why you lose paint of the last 18" on Raf blades in rain, and not off Skywheels or the Oz Revolution blades.

Aussie Paul. :)

[Victor Duarte]

Chuck, my father fought 3 years in Angola in the 60's as special ops commando... also things he doesnt expect to see again..
was not a pleasure, my uncle had a farm there, forced to leave the country.
chuck, let's get out of politics, i ve learnt the lesson ;)
you should write a book, with the amount of things you saw, real life is amazing to read.
cheers

[KenSandyEggo]

I do drive a 71 VW bug and our condo is vertical and is probably no more than 20 feet from any outside wall to any outside wall.....O.K., maybe 30. I've lived here for 20 years and felt probably no more than 8 light rumblings. They are very minor shakes and almost all of the ones they announce on TV (very over-exaggerated), I never even felt.

So Walt, EVERYONE that does not prop his blades is an idiot? I didn't know that.

So Walt, when are you coming back to earth for the Second Coming? I want to make sure that I have all my affairs in order and go to church for at least 3 Sundays before you make your appearance. How's your son J.C. doing these days? Until you come down, could you please stop all these tremblors in CA? They're not funny, you know. They're wrecking my gyro.

[r.coplen]

Hi Chuck,

I am going to South Africa tomorrow for a couple of weeks. Plan to visit with our new dealer there. I would like to talk to you sometime about your experiences there when I get back if that would be ok.

[birdy]

Your post 158 is spoton Chuck,I'm with you mate. :)
BTW,your still easy to stir up. ;) :D

When I had the standard RAF blades I used to support them coz if I didn't they seemed to change shape/cone set and would shake for the first hour of fly'n,as if they slowly regained their proper form after a time under centrifical force.
I'v never supported the aluminium ones,just tyed them down.

[GyroRon]

I do drive a 71 VW bug and our condo is vertical and is probably no more than 20 feet from any outside wall to any outside wall.....O.K., maybe 30. I've lived here for 20 years and felt probably no more than 8 light rumblings. They are very minor shakes and almost all of the ones they announce on TV (very over-exaggerated), I never even felt.

So Walt, EVERYONE that does not prop his blades is an idiot? I didn't know that.

So Walt, when are you coming back to earth for the Second Coming? I want to make sure that I have all my affairs in order and go to church for at least 3 Sundays before you make your appearance. How's your son J.C. doing these days? Until you come down, could you please stop all these tremblors in CA? They're not funny, you know. They're wrecking my gyro.



Funny! thanks for the laugh!

[GyroTyro]

I do drive a 71 VW bug and our condo is vertical and is probably no more than 20 feet from any outside wall to any outside wall.....O.K., maybe 30. I've lived here for 20 years and felt probably no more than 8 light rumblings. They are very minor shakes and almost all of the ones they announce on TV (very over-exaggerated), I never even felt.

There's a saying in the Army, you will never hear the shot that kills you.

Ken: After living for 64 years, 35 of which, (I assume) you have been driving a VW bug you have developed TB (tired butt) and cannot feel the tremblers of the ground. Like I said go to see what a seismologists chart looks like in your area. A simpler test is the one I suggested with baking flour sifted into a jar and then put on a solid shelf. It will amaze you at how the flour will settle and this is a function of the earth moving.

So Walt, EVERYONE that does not prop his blades is an idiot? I didn't know that.

I don't believe I said that, if I did I apologize :o . What I did say is that a Prudent person wishing to extract the maximum life from his gyro would take every take every reasonable precaution to protect it. If that means propping the blades then so be it. If you mean to say that a nonprudent person is and idiot then those are your words not mine.

So Walt, . . . . gyro.

This comment was totally irrelevant and uncalled for, it reflects the author not me.

When I had the standard RAF blades I used to support them coz if I didn't they seemed to change shape/cone set and would shake for the first hour of fly'n,as if they slowly regained their proper form after a time under centrifical force.
I'v never supported the aluminium ones, just tyed them down.
__________________
David Bird
Alice Springs, Australia.

Sagging blades do have a detrimental affect on flight performance. Why take the chance they will affect your next flight. :p .
.

[Vance]

My smoothest taxi has more shake than the worst earth quake I have experianced in 55 years as a native Californian. You people have winds that destroy everything in their path, suported or not. That is why there are so many of you here. Thank you, Vance

[Victor Duarte]

Funny! thanks for the laugh!
hey ron ! neuter yourself :D or neuter your cat :D
http://www.petatv.com/tvpopup/Prefs.asp?video=cat-sex

[GyroTyro]

My smoothest taxi has more shake than the worst earth quake I have experianced in 55 years as a native Californian. You people have winds that destroy everything in their path, suported or not. That is why there are so many of you here. Thank you, Vance


I was there when the quake took down the Nimitz freeway in Oakland and wrecked the Bay bridge. Are you saying that your gyro taxis rougher than that? If it does Your gyro needs work. :eek: :D :D Again I went through the Southern Ca area when the quakes collapsed the freeways they went down one on top of the other. Was that your rough taxiing gyro causing the quakes? :rolleyes: . I worked in San Jose and had many earthquakes shake the building. There are few things hairier than being on the upper floors of a high rise that is swaying in the echoes of a quake.

My house is still on its foundation. My hanger is still standing, the roof is still on and the ropes with which I hang the ends of my blades are still there. :)
.
I'll take a tornado any day in preference to a quake prone area.

.

[automan1223]

Ken I took no offense to your questions, just wanted to make issues clear. You are 100% correct. and chances are we will never know the whole truth. In these highly lawsuit ridden times, I can understand the motive but not the ethics.

Jonathan


Regarding the ignition system, Jonathan, if the switch is left on and the ignition cooked, would the engine start and run for 1.5 hours and then start burping as mine did, or would it be dead when you went to start up? I took off from San Diego and was in the LA basin when mine started acting up. Please remember that RAF lied to almost all of the 30-plus people that called in about ignition failures. They told everyone that there was nothing wrong with it, that it must have been carb ice or water in the tank. They repeated this well over 30 times, How long do you go before you realize there's a problem? 40 times, 60 times? Most of these ignition problems took place inflight, not when trying to start the engine.

[automan1223]

That is why I was asking doug. thank you very much for the info.

I still get a warm fuzzy from a solid piece of 2024 !

Jonathan



Jonathan: 2024-T3 starts out at around 68,000 psi ultimate, 48,000 yield. At 10M cycles, it's down to 25,000; at 100M 20,000 and 500M 18,000. All per Kent's Handbook, again.

The biggest problem with 2024 (well, besides the horrendous cost) is that it has really poor corrosion resistance. That's no problem with aircraft sheet metal because it's clad with pure aluminum that has better corrosion qualities. It IS a problem with bar stock. I don't know of anyone in gyroland who currently uses 2024 in rotor hubs. I believe Bensen called it out for his early wood-blade hubs and some other parts in the spindle head.

As long as you know the loads and do the arithmetic, you can design safely using either metal. Just don't bet the farm on those one-time strengths if your device is subject to vibration.

[automan1223]

Paul,

let me figuratively get down on my knees and than you and Derek for coming forward with this information. I really appreciate your honesty and your dedication to bring this kind of info to the group. Since I type a lot and you dont get any of what I say then I will keep it short. If I have been misled by statements by staff at raf, then we will see more cracks in the future on their latest blades. If this was a fluke ,then it still deserves our attention anyway no matter who it embarrases or angers.

Thank you very much for the heads up.

Jonathan Weis
Oriental NC



... were on their "new" solid state silver alloy box, that was sealed with cheap acidic silicone. :mad: You can imagine what this did to the electrical components. I gave it to an aftermarked ECU developer and he just laughed at the "Crap silicone rusting all the components". The actual design was considered to be an acceptable way to, but not the best way to control the ignition. :)
This system did not have a coil. It used the crank and cam sensors from Subaru and the drove the Subaru coils to fire the plugs at the appropriate time.

The ground strike refernece came directly from Don at Raf, as well as leading people to believe that blades where changed and not the hub bar. Jonathon fell for that hook line and sinker!!!!! :eek:

As a Raf agent I expected to be part of the "team" knowing about problems and helping to fix them. :confused: Their agents should have the info that they have and we all work together for improvement. I could not handle having to repeat what "they" said without proof. Us agents were/are kept in the dark. :o

Derek will get a new set of rotor blades, and he will be happy, and no one will get to conduct the correct investigation. :rolleyes: Raf have the evidence, Derek has new blades, so he will not speak up at all now that he is the NZ Raf agent. Don will have Derek around his little finger as Derek will no doubt be struggling financially with the small amount of training NZ offers. :(

Raf is pushing hard now into low gyro literate/knowledgeable countries to probably help maintain turnover. :eek: I have given some training to a couple of South Africans this year, who mentioned that to me. The Raf is cheaper than the Magni and the Chyene, and Raf are homing in on this. The buyers are like we all were 10 years ago, not familiar enough with gyro knowledge to sort the "Bull****" (technical word!!). :eek:

Jonathon typed heaps of words and really said "nothing".

Fortunately I am too slow a typist, I only have time to stick to the facts.

Aussie Paul. :)

[Vance]

Walt, I was there also and I don't taxi freways or buildings, so yes the taxing on the run way puts more impact into the autogiro than an earthquake does. And before you say it, no the runway has not been damaged by earthquakes.

We have too many people here anyway, so I am glad you are happy where you are.

I am glad you took my post as it was written, I keep getting in trouble for not having a well delvoped sense of humor. Thank you, Vance

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

GyroTyro :

Just so I can understand exactly how you think can you enlighten me on the following comment you posted?

.................................................. .................................................. .
As far as the quality of the blades goes, from what I have seen on the forum RAF blades are purchased as soon as they are offered for sale. Right or Wrong These people are putting thier money where thier mouth is.

.................................................. .................................................. ..

So by your definition RAF being liars and cheats are A.O.K. with you ..Huh?

Manufacturing and selling poorly designed and poorly manufactured flying components that have killed many of their customers is O.K ??

Chuck E.

[GyroTyro]

Walt, I was there also and I don't taxi freways or buildings, so yes the taxing on the run way puts more impact into the autogiro than an earthquake does. And before you say it, no the runway has not been damaged by earthquakes.

I wouldn't expect the runways to be damaged by anything but a direct strike quake, but to CAs credit they try to avoid building airports and water reservoirs directly on a fault (unless some politician can line his/her own pocket by moving it to the politicians land :rolleyes: . Believe it or not where quakes strike are somewhat predictable, they will follow a fault usually without exception so the further you build away from the fault the less danger of having earthquake damage. Remember the impact that you experience on your gyro while taxiing is only a protion of the impact it suffers. :)

We have too many people here anyway, so I am glad you are happy where you are.

You have way too many people in CA and the amiability of the people has greatly deteriorated in the past 50 plus years since I first moved there.The house that I bought in Fremont for $17000, is now selling for $700,000 plus,, NOTHANKS The last time I was in Santa Cruz some college students had erected signs saying "Tourists, leave you money and GO HOME". I don’t intend to return to CA until they bury me in the family plot in a cemetery in Fair Oaks. :D

I am glad you took my post as it was written, I keep getting in trouble for not having a well delvoped sense of humor. Thank you, Vance

I seldom take anything on a forum to heart. There's an old saying "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance then baffle them with bull****. :)
.
.

[KenSandyEggo]

Walt, do we use oat flower or corn flower? Can we use the coarse grind instead of the fine grind? What about cornstarch? Just funnin' with ya Walt. The devil makes me do it sometimes. Ask Chuck or Paul. It's not my fault. He takes over and makes me type this stuff. :rolleyes:

[GyroTyro]

GyroTyro :

Just so I can understand exactly how you think can you enlighten me on the following comment you posted?

.................................................. .................................................. .
As far as the quality of the blades goes, from what I have seen on the forum RAF blades are purchased as soon as they are offered for sale. Right or Wrong These people are putting thier money where thier mouth is.
.................................................. .................................................. ..
:confused: Read it again I don't think it needs any explaination :confused:


So by your definition RAF being liars and cheats are A.O.K. with you ..Huh?

Manufacturing and selling poorly designed and poorly manufactured flying components that have killed many of their customers is O.K ??

Chuck E.

This is your extremley BIASED and PREJUDICED evaluation. There are many who do not share YOUR BIASES. More RAF are being sold every year and the buyers are perfectly content with them after they make thier own modifications.

You have a hard on for RAF. Get OVER IT

.

[banaari]

More RAF are being sold every year and the buyers are perfectly content with them after they make thier own modifications.

Be nice if they made a product buyers didn't feel the need to modify. :)

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

Walt :

You may not be aware, but in 1992 I lived with Don and Linda and it was me who started so set up their flight training program through a flight school that I owned at the time.

I severed relations with RAF due to their lack of business ethics.

They have screwed over countless people over the past fifteen years and build their business on the unwary and ignorant.

But all that aside, I can not ever condone anyone who produces a product that has killed as many people as the RAF 2000 has.

There is no excuse for RAF continuing to state that their machine is stable and safe, that is pure unadulterated dishonesty.

Now on a personal level, I may be blunt and lack the smooth touchy feely B.S. type of communication, however what I post is factual.

.................................................. ....................

You have a hard on for RAF. Get OVER IT

.................................................. ....................
Shove that comment where the sun don't shine Walt, who do you think you are to tell me I am biased when I am only stating facts.

Oh, I just figured it out, you must be another gullible victim of RAF???

Chuck E

[birdy]

Heh heh,this thread is git'n better by the post. :D :D

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

Hey Birdy :

Did you notice I didnt tell him to go f.ck himself?

I'm getting more refined as time goes by. :D

Chuck E.

[GyroTyro]

Walt :

You may not be aware,

BLAH
BLAH
BLAH,

however what I post is factual.

Your Halo Overwhelms me :rolleyes: ..
.
.................................................. ....................

You have a hard on for RAF. Get OVER IT

.................................................. ....................
Shove that comment where the sun don't shine Walt, who do you think you are to tell me I am biased when I am only stating facts.
Facts to you, but your biased ramblings and accusations tell the rest of the world that your eyes are turning brown. . YOU are telling the WHOLE forum of your bias with your continuous ranting at RAF. I'm just another forum member who is trying gather and share information and ideas while I try to ignore you and your biased rants.
.
.
Your rants remind me of an old saying "Hell hath no furry like a woman scorned" Are you sure that in another life you weren't a woman?
.
.
Oh, I just figured it out, you must be another gullible victim of RAF???

Chuck E

Is that another one of your facts? :confused: .
.
Chuck: You missed your calling, You should be a news writer for Dan Rather ;) His writers also manufacture facts, but they are one up on you. They forge government papers to try to prove their "facts".
.
.
Hey Birdy :

Did you notice I didnt tell him to go f.ck himself?

I’d respond with an appropriate comment only I’m a humanitarian and I’d be afraid you’d give yourself an STD. For you Aussies (all of whom I admire) STD means Sexually Transmitted Disease. You don’t have them in OZ. ;)
.
.
Hey this is getting to be fun. :) :)
.
.

[GyroTyro]

Be nice if they made a product buyers didn't feel the need to modify. :)


I agree but I have never had anything mechanical with more than three moving parts that I didn't "customize" Including my first bike which I assembled from a used parts pile at age 9.
.

Tinkerers NEVER leave things as they are, They can always be improved upon.
.
.

[banaari]

I agree but I have never had anything mechanical with more than three moving parts that I didn't "customize" Including my first bike which I assembled from a used parts pile at age 9.
.

Tinkerers NEVER leave things as they are, They can always be improved upon.
.
.

Not "tinkering". Major aerodynamic modifications, such as the addition of a horizontal stabiliser, which where I live is now a mandatory requirement.

[GyroTyro]

Not "tinkering". Major aerodynamic modifications, such as the addition of a horizontal stabiliser, which where I live is now a mandatory requirement.

Nah!! that's still tinkering.

.
Major is something like lifting the radiator cap and building a Gyro to fit under it.

.
.
.

[banaari]

Nah!! that's still tinkering.
Gaarrgh!!!

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

Well I will ask you one more thing Gyro Tyro.

Duane Hunn and Jim Logan are the last two holdouts that still teach that the RAF 2000 is stable. Remember these two are supposed to be CFI's and they are teaching something that is not only dangerous but in defiance of physics.

Why do you think they still tow the company line?

Chuck E.

[pwendell]

Walt,

Now you're just trying to stir s**t up.

I don't think it's that much fun.

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

Pwendell :

I see by his profile he is a PPL SEL and an RAF student, I wonder who his instructor is?

Chuck E.

[pwendell]

Pwendell :

I see by his profile he is a PPL SEL and an RAF student, I wonder who his instructor is?

Chuck E.

Chuck,

Isn't Duane doing some training in OK?

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

Yeh, Pwendell, that might explain it.

Oh well lets hope he does not end up another fatality due to falling for the Voo Doo teaching methods of the RAF snake oil salesmen masquerading as flight instructors.

Chuck E.

[GyroTyro]

Well I will ask you one more thing Gyro Tyro.

Duane Hunn and Jim Logan are the last two holdouts that still teach that the RAF 2000 is stable. Remember these two are supposed to be CFI's and they are teaching something that is not only dangerous but in defiance of physics.

Why do you think they still tow the company line?

Chuck E.



Tell me Chuck E.

In defianced of WHOSE BIASE, UNQUALIFIED INTERPRETATION OF PHYSICS?

Is the Gee Bee stable? Is the P 51 stable? Are they pieces of s..t also?
.

How many hours do you have in the RAF to castigate it in such a demeaning manner?. These individuals have proven thier expertice. Have you? Are you a Gyro CFI?

What makes you THINK you are qualified to judge a gyro CFI?

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

In defianced of WHOSE BIASE, UNQUALIFIED INTERPRETATION OF PHYSICS?

The laws of physis are not open to interpertation based on snake oil sales pitches.

How many hours do you have in the RAF to castigate it in such a demeaning manner?. These individuals have proven thier expertice. Have you? Are you a Gyro CFI?

I flew the RAF before either of these two people did, I found it to be very unstable in pitch and moderately unstable in yaw when I first started flying it in 1991. I built one of their gyros and never flew it due to the poor quality of the components, that was before I found out why it was so unstable.

It was not until I started reading Norms forum after I received my Commercial Gyroplane Pilots license in the U.S.A. that I found out about the reason for the RAF instability. There was nothing in the ground school and exams that I took that explained the relationship of the trrust line to stability in pitch of a gyroplane.

What makes you THINK you are qualified to judge a gyro CFI?
__________________

I have been a CFI since 1959 and am qualified on many rotary wing aircraft up to heavy lift helicopters as well as many, many fixed wing aircraft single & multi engine land and sea up to the Airbus A320.

I dont " THINK " I am qualified to judge these two so called instructors I " KNOW " I am.

By the way here are a list of Government aviation agencies that also think I am qualified because they have approved me as an advanced flight instructor.

Transport Canada...CASA in Australia.....the CAA in Europe.....the CAA in South Africa....The FAA in the USA.

Gyro instructors are teaching in the most basic of flying machines, sadly some like Hunn and Logan don't even understand the very subject they are supposed to be teaching.

Chuck E.

[pwendell]

[SIZE=3][FONT=Comic Sans MS]

Is the Gee Bee stable? Is the P 51 stable?

Yes and Yes. Both of these airplanes have greater static and dynamic stability than an unstabilized RAF. Just because the stock RAF FEELS stable, most of the time, doesn't mean it is. It's always a snake just waiting for the right opportunity to strike.

GYROPLANES ARE NOT AIRPLANES. The way gyros express stability, or the lack thereof, is very different from the way airplanes do. There is now plenty of information available, both on this forum and many other places, that you can read, evaluate, and use to make your own informed decisions about what makes for a stable gyroplane and why. Don't take one instructor's word for it, or mine for that matter.

Just because someone can drive drunk for thousands of miles without getting hurt doesn't mean it's safe to drive drunk. Same thing with an unmodified RAF. It doesn't matter how many hours someone has flown an unstabilized RAF 'safely', it's a bad idea and there are, tragically, plenty of bodies that have been left behind to witness that fact.

BTW, Chuck is a CFI and has flown a lot more hours in a lot more aircraft in a lot more conditions than you and I put together ever will.

[KenSandyEggo]

Walt posts: "I'm just another forum member who is trying gather and share information and ideas while I try to ignore you and your biased rants."

What you're sharing Walt, is bull**** spoon-fed to you by your "factory-authorized RAF CFI." You're not the first dupe to show up here and parrot their ignorant rantings and you won't be the last. You want to ignore and pooh-pooh straight physics, which is un-pooh-poohable. You ramble on and really say nothing regarding aerodynamics of gyros, killer thrust lines and shoddy components. If you want to believe that the RAF is a safe, stable machine and the RAF crew is honorable, trustworthy and truthful, forge on blindly as those before you. You sound exactly the same as the other parrots and sheep that preceeded you. They all finally disappeared after discovering they came to a gunfight armed with a short stick and can't logically discuss facts. All they and you can do is make accusations about hard-ons and other blitherings. It's almost laughable except for the fact that you might kill yourself listening to voodoo aerodynamicists like your "CFI," and no one here wants to see that....once again.

Post something solid. Tell us why the RAF is not dangerous...why an almost foot-high thrustline is O.K.....why failing ignitions are just a little inconvenience.....why everything that flies, other than what you're training in, has horizontal feathers, including birds and why the RAF gyro doesn't need any. This is what you're ignoring, not biased rants and hard-ons. Counter the "rantings" and "biases" with hard fact. Hate to tell you Walt, but you just can't do it.

You don't want to gather information, otherwise you'd listen to knowledgeable and/or experienced people who know physics and aerodynamics and come to some realizations. But you bought into the bull****, like so many others have (including me at one time), and what you're really doing is attempting to make brownie points with your "CFI." You say you're also here to share. Share something meaningful with us then, other than castigating everyone that posts the true facts about RAF and their so-called instructors. Being around a long time with heaps of hours does not necessarily a good CFI make. As mentioned, there are scads of incompetent drivers on our roads, many of them drunk, who manage to stay out of accidents somehow and wend their way home. They usually stay out of accidents because of the diligence excercised by the rest of us who recognize incompetents and stay out of their way. Does this make them good drivers?

Do you realize that RAF once had a stable of gyro Rep/CFIs across the U.S.? Something like 14 if I recall. Are you aware that only 3 remain, one of which had all his certificates suspended for a year? All the others left RAF in disgust and all that I know are flying with stabs. Same goes for their former New Zealand rep and current Aussie rep. Both were or are flying stabs. Is any of this starting to sink in Walt, or are you going to keep playing apologist/shill for RAF's shrinking stable with a mostly closed mind open only to crapola?

[GyroTyro]

defianced of WHOSE BIASE, UNQUALIFIED INTERPRETATION OF PHYSICS?[/COLOR]

laws of physis (spic) are not open to interpertation(spic) based on snake oil sales pitches.

Whose snake oil pitches yours or theirs?

How many hours do you have in the RAF to castigate it in such a demeaning manner?. These individuals have proven their expertise. Have you? Are you a Gyro CFI?

I flew the RAF
BLAH,
BLAH,
BLAH
gyroplane.

you avoided the question. AGAIN are you a Gyro CFI

What makes you THINK you are qualified to judge a gyro CFI? . . . Ego? I are a gyro pilote?


I have been a
blah
blah
blah.

Again . . . are you a qualified gyro CFI?
Gyro instructors are teaching in the most basic of flying machines, sadly some like Hunn and Logan don't even understand the very subject they are supposed to be teaching.

Chuck E.
Again no logical response.

In other words you are NOT QUALIFIED TO JUDGE A GYRO CFI


If you wish to continue this discourse please do not use asinine colors. they are hard to read.

[banaari]

GyroTyro, if you really want to start a spelling debate, then you first need to realise (with an "s", Kiwi spelling) that the terms are "sic", not "spic"; "defiance" not "defianced"; and "bias" not "biase".

[GyroTyro]

Yes and Yes. Both of these airplanes have greater static and dynamic stability than an unstabilized RAF. Just because the stock RAF FEELS stable, most of the time, doesn't mean it is. It's always a snake just waiting for the right opportunity to strike.

ditto Bee Gee and P51 .are always a snake just waiting for the right opportunity to strike.

GYROPLANES ARE NOT AIRPLANES. The way gyros express stability, or the lack thereof, is very different from the way airplanes do. There is now plenty of information available, both on this forum and many other places, that you can read, evaluate, and use to make your own informed decisions about what makes for a stable gyroplane and why. Don't take one instructor's word for it, or mine for that matter.

Tell that to the FAA, If they buy it, I'll consider it.

just because someone can drive drunk for thousands of miles without getting hurt doesn't mean it's safe to drive drunk. Same thing with an unmodified RAF. It doesn't matter how many hours someone has flown an unstabilized (spic) RAF 'safely', it's a bad idea and there are, tragically, plenty of bodies that have been left behind to witness that fact.

I have NEVER advocated flying an stock RAF. So what’s your point?

BTW, Chuck is a CFI and has flown a lot more hours in a lot more aircraft in a lot more conditions than you and I put together ever will.

You contradict your second paragraph when you say gyroplanes are not airplanes, If gyros are not airplanes then Chucks experience ain’t worth S . . T.


Astronauts have also logged more hours/miles than you or I will ever dream of but that still does not qualify them as gyro instructors or critics.

[banaari]

Again, "sic" is NOT spelt "spic". Unless in some obscure way you really are referring to a person of Hispanic ethnicity. And exactly what is wrong with "unstabilized"? Using a "z" is perfectly acceptable in American English.

Trying to raise the tone a little,
John

[Aussie_Paul]

........In other words you are NOT QUALIFIED TO JUDGE A GYRO CFI


......BUT I AM WALT, I HAVE MORE INSTRUCTING TIME THAN EITHER OF THOSE GUYS, AND POSSIBLY COMBINED!!!!!!!!!!!!!

THEY ARE NOT COMPETANT GYRO CFIs. PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Aussie Paul. :)

[Ted Eggleston]

Gentlemen,

I seriously regret asking some pages ago, for those posting within this tread to 'lift their game' for it clearly has degenerated into a messy schoolboy slanging match. Free speech is not free speech if we are unable to use it wisely. All of the positive contributions have been eroded by the ongoinging childish personal attacks on those who made the effort to contribute. We are sending the wrong message out to those showing an interest in this sport.

May I suggest that perhaps we should simply stop typing on this isssue for a period of 24 hrs so that the emotions can settle down. Lets get back to playing the ball and not the man.

I thank Paul , Jim Mayfield and particularily Derek for their informative contribution to the original issue of the cracks in the hub bar.

Sincerely
Ted

[Derek Zan]

What can I say: F..K all I reckon. Hey it's been good listening to most of you jokers. I'll come back again, but right now I've got to go to bed and hopefully wake up in the morning on Mars. See Yah!

[birdy]

It's a shame that Walt is only a tempory American.
You gota admit Ted,it is entertaining even if it is a waste of time try'n to convince Walt that most people here only try to be helpful.
Yeh,Chuck E can boast a bit bout his experiance Walt[and it can git boring,{joke Chuck}.],but experiance is something you can't buy,and if you can learn something from someone eleses experiance,then it's free.So don't push it,some of these blokes mite start to think,"fu## him,let him kill himself".Afterall,I remember you said somewere you wanted to learn,the best way to do that is to listen,especialy if you know nothing.

[Aussie_Paul]

Good post Birdy.

Aussie Paul. :)

[GyroRon]

I am sure Walt has to feel cornered here, that is too bad. I am not even involved and what some of you have said to Walt pisses me off. We all want to help and most of us here know the RAF has faults and we want to do everything we can to educate new RAF students and owners. But to get so nasty.... it just isn't a good way to do it. I am sure Chuck means well, But his way of posting stuff - Well let's just say he should try to work on being more respectful to others.

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

Good morning Ron, hows things in the south.

Yes we should respect others I will agree. However there are some who do not deserve respect because they are just plain dangerous people that cause enormous pain and anguish to others all for the sake of money.

RAF and the few remaining shills like Hunn and Logan are unique in aviation because I can think of no other group that denies the principals of physics and aerodynamics and for years keep on manufacturing and selling a machine that kills the buyer because that what an RAF 2000 does best, kills people.

I don't know if you were around Norms forum when Paul Bruty and I first tangled assholes on the subject of the RAF 2000 being unstable, well we went through the same senario as I go through with so many of the RAF victims such as this last one...are you a gyro CFI? how many hours do you have on a RAF....and on and on. ( by the way becoming a gyro CFI would require me to only need to do one thing...apply for the addition of gyros to my existing licenses, maybe some day I will. )

I am in a unique position in this group because I do not have anything to gain by posting about RAF, I live and fly in a far different world than most of the people that read these forums about gyros and I truly don't really care what some may think about my manner of posting.

One thing you have to admit when I do comment I get straight to the point and I defy anyone here to challenge the truth of my statements.

Anyhow I guess we need the good cop bad cop approach here just like dealing with the street crimminals...which the RAF bunch act like.

I must admit I do feel guilty about ripping into our latest victim of RAF, because if you read his posts carefully he displays all the emotion and lack of understanding that Duane and Jim program to do their latest victims arguing here for them.

RAF and their shills are disgusting low lifes that take advantage of the uninformed and gullible.

Chuck E.

[quadrirotor]

For the RAF situation;
Is anybody able to sum up:
number of have-flown RAF:
number of crash or semi-crash:
number of killed:
number of injured:
since the begining (and with time if possible...):
thanks in advance!.

[Vance]

Andre, that is what the NTSB accident data base does. I find it illuminating. Sort of a blue print of what not to do. People gave a lot to be listed on the database, study adds value to that contribution. It helps to read between the lines a little. Many of the non fatal accidents don't make it to a report, I would guess at least half. I don't know how many have flown, but there are less of them now. Thank you, Vance

[GyroRon]

Chuck, I don't think being a CFI means a person is better than another. I know a gyro CFI that knows little to nothing about aerodynamics and other matters. He does know how to fly gyros and knows how to teach a person how to fly gyros. That is his job, not to be a engineer or gyroplane designer.

what the RAF instructors - and BELIEVE ME!!! they are not the only instructors out there that teach in unstable machines and they are not the only ones who teach that it is the pilot that makes a gyro stable not the gyro itself - Do, that bothers most of us, is the rumor that they will flat out tell their students and followers that additions like Stabs and CLT is not only NOT needed, but that those improvements will somehow make the gyro more dangerous.

Now I am sure they have done just that, but I have never seen or heard any of them say that with my own ears, so who knows..... I have heard several students of Jims and Duannes that have said that although both instructors downplayed the addition of Stabs, both told their students that it wouldn't be a bad improvement.

It would be a super day in gyroland if we got word that as of today, Jim Duanne and Mr. Fritts all decided to swap jobs and become Sparrowhawk Reps and instructors. I am sure AAI would welcome them. But in the meantime it looks like the instructors are slowly coming around, with the key word SLOWLY.

The guilty party is the company itself. They know there is a problem. The Stabilator is proof of that. Why they won't come out with a RAF 3000 is beyond me.

Chuck, again, I have no problem with your message. It is the delivery that can sometimes go a little overboard!!! Tone it down, show a little more respect and I bet that people wouldn't see you as a man with a Ax to grind, but rather a highly experienced aviation elder that is looking out for the new guy.

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

Well we can start with the company president, I have records of over half a dozen accidents that he had that damaged his machines, and there were more with no written record. One of his accidents was caused by gross negligence and gross stupidity in the parking lot of the RAF factory, the newspaper story is a good read if you want to see just how dumb Don LaFleur is.

Dan Haseloh of course was also a victim of his own product, to bad two others had to die along with him.

Chuck E.

[Harry_S.]

Ron A. One of your better posts...but it will fall on closed eyes and a closed mind.


Cheers :confused:

[Harry_S.]

........In other words you are NOT QUALIFIED TO JUDGE A GYRO CFI


......BUT I AM WALT, I HAVE MORE INSTRUCTING TIME THAN EITHER OF THOSE GUYS, AND POSSIBLY COMBINED!!!!!!!!!!!!!

THEY ARE NOT COMPETANT GYRO CFIs. PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Aussie Paul. :)



C'mon Paul...show a little humility sometime. It'll do wonders. ;)



Cheers :)

[KenSandyEggo]

C'mon Harry. The statements he posted are factual and the truth. No humility needed.

[Victor Duarte]

paul you have the cutest kangaroos in the world ! and AC/DC !
what do you need more ? :D

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

Harry_S :

I suppose I will have to judge your crack about a closed mind based on your contempt for anyone who is a professional pilot.

You may see me as a " Smiling Jack " as you describe anyone with more qualifications than you but at least I can show proof that I am in fact "qualified " to give professional opinions regarding flying.

So you stay mired in your limited grasp of aviation and I will keep trying to warn new commers about the danger of beleiving shills like Hunn and Logan who demonstrate unprofessional teaching methods.

By the way how would you like to read the accident story that Don LaFleur gave to the newspaper? It shows just how abysmally ignorant he is about flying.

Chuck E.

[GyroRon]

The RAF instructors are teaching people to fly. Make no mistake about it. Sure some of their students have died. Make no mistake about that either. But the reason for that is not just on Duanne or Jim or any of the others. It is partly the fault of the company for not selling a stable safe machine - When it could be - It is also partly the fault of the students for flying in conditions that the instructors did not reccomend they fly in.

The instructors COULD have been flying safer gyros. They COULD be teaching what we could call modern safe gyro design and aerodynamics. Both of these COULDs could have made a differnece for those that are no longer with us, and can make a difference for those that are sure to follow.

But....

Their job was to teach a student how to fly gyros. Seeing how most of their students learn to fly a very unstable gyro, and the mass majority of their students go on to solo and then put on years of flying unstable gyros... I would say they ARE successful gyro CFIs and they deserve some respect for that.

I might upset some here, but I learned to fly with CFI Steve McGowan. His machine was highly unstable, and of all the countless hours I have spent at his side listening and learning, I have never heard him give any speach about safe gyro design, and I have never heard him say anything that would have made me think a HTL or none stabbed gyro was not as safe as a machine such as my current machine. I don't know of any of Steves students getting killed flying gyros, and I know Steve is a likeable guy and no doubt the best gyro pilot breathing today, but I don't know where he is so different from Duanne and Jim and the rest of that camp.

All I am saying here is there is more than one way to look at something.

[Harry_S.]

That wasn't the point I was trying to make Ken.

Along the intent of your post...how do you know the facts are as stated? I don't. Paul stated an opinion, self boasted, but his opinion, none the less.

I had flown with Jim Logan on two occasions and it, a h/s was never mentioned. In fact, I didn't realize a h/s was needed or was in the offing til I saw your article and ad. After e-mailing with you about the improvements you experienced with the stab, I bought your stab and was really satisfied...after the proper installation...with the results in flying qualities.

I might add here...I flew my RAF for about 90 hrs. before I installed your h/s, with no problems, other than an exceptional pilot workload in gusty wind conditions. I must also add here...with humility...that I had hundreds of hours of gyro experience, PIC, before my RAF demo rides.

And Ken, I think I, as well as you, would not be adverse to answering a query to my experience and/or qualifications, as to my opinion regarding gyro's.

[Harry_S.]

Ron A.

Your posts are getting better and more meaningful. You must be getting older. :D

We all need to open up and relax more.


Take...what is it Paxil?...


Cheers :)

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

Ron and the rest of you allow me to comment about this issue.

I do not see any reason that gyroplane flight instructors should be exempt from teaching " Everything " that a student needs to know about safety.

When any flight instructor fails to fully explain very important issues such as the dangers of unstable aircraft and justifies their failure to fully teach these issues by claiming that you will be a better pilot learning to fly an unstable aircraft is unacceptable in the aviation world that I have lived in and still teach in.

Ron, by bringing up your instructors name and making the claim that he is the best gyro pilot breathing today, does that justify his failure to address the stability issue so the student has " ALL " the facts to better understand the subject?

Once again may I suggest that this culture of careless and insufficient sharing of the laws of gyro aerodynamics is one reason why gyro pilots are looked upon by many as outlaws?

Chuck E.

[Mayfield]

Like Paul Bruty, Ron Menzie, Ken J, Terry Eiland, and me, Steve McGowan flew aircraft that were not statically and dynamically stable for many years.

Over the years, we learn if we live.

I believe Steve McGowan might very well be the "best gyro pilot breathing today."

Steve still flies just about everyday. When I left work to go home today, he was just taking off in the SparrowHawk he now teaches in at American Autogyro. With great respect Ron: what makes Steve different from Duane or Jim is his willingness to learn new things and move forward.

Respectfully submitted,

Jim

[GyroRon]

I, along with others, Really look forward to hearing from Steve to see how he likes flying the Sparrowhawks.

I should mention that my personal training with Steve - and all other time I have spent with him - has been at Fly in events. I don't know how he trains - or trained - his students that came to him in Macon or now at AAI. I am sure Jim has a program for the instructor and the student to follow.

Chuck I think the reason most of the aviation world looks down on gyro pilots is because they simply don't understand the machines and how they fly and to alot of people, a gyroplane just looks scary. Fixed wing ultralights, Powered Parachutes, Trikes and all other non standard forms of aviation get this black sheep treatment. It is not caused because these Weekend Warriors in their gyros or other toy aircraft aren't aerodynamic experts, it is cause the rest of Aviation is ignorant of what our machines are.

I am not based at a flight school in Daytona Beach Florida, but Goose Creek is the busiest flight school in the Greater Charlotte area. 9 out of 10 of the Cessna drivers out there don't know the first thing about aerodynamics, other than what they were forced to learn to pass their Written and Practical Exams.

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

Ron :

We are not really that far apart in our thinking, it is just that I have been programmed in a different environment where you must cover all your bases.

I was not knocking Steve, rather I was trying to point out that there seems to be a lack of passing information to students during training probably because until just recently none of us realized the signifigance of the high thrustline in pusher gyros.

As I have previously stated when I wrote the commercial gyroplane exam in California in around 1993 there was zero mention in any study material or in the exams about this problem.

Bottom line is now that this problem has been identified it should be part of every gyro instructors teaching. Jim Mayfield and Paul Bruty to mention two people are addressing this in an excellent way.

Gyros are still the safest and easiest of flying machines to fly...as long as they are designed properly.

Chuck E.

[birdy]

Victor said,
"paul you have the cutest kangaroos in the world ! and AC/DC !"

Mate,the only cute roo is a dead one.But I agree bout AC/DC. ;)

"Paul stated an opinion, self boasted, but his opinion, none the less".....Harry,thats just Paul,he dose it all the time. :rolleyes: :D

Ron and Chuck,I'm dissapointed,your both mellowing,or git'n old,scenile............. :p :D

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

He can't sit down from all the salt I had him pounding. :D

[pwendell]

I am not based at a flight school in Daytona Beach Florida, but Goose Creek is the busiest flight school in the Greater Charlotte area. 9 out of 10 of the Cessna drivers out there don't know the first thing about aerodynamics, other than what they were forced to learn to pass their Written and Practical Exams.

Ron,

I think the fact is that airplane pilots don't HAVE to understand how and why their machines fly. FW aerodynamics are so well understood that any reasonably intelligent person can use easily available sources to determine whether or not a given design is viable. FW pilots take it for granted that the machines they fly are well designed, stable and, relatively, safe.

Us Gyro pilots can not currently make that assumption. We must be well informed about the whys and how of our machines, or we risk an untimely death. It is incumbent on us, here, to pass on the information that gyro pilots need to keep themselves safe. Mostly we do a very good job. I believe that the most important function of this forum is to present the FACTS, to the best of our current understanding, about gyroplane aerodynamics and operations. We must be open to questions, but we must be direct and unapologetic about refuting dangerous errors and misunderstandings that represent themselves as facts or simply 'another opinion'. This can be a difficult balance to maintain, as I think, this thread illustrates.

As Jim Mayfield writes in his signature, "Stability is not an Opinion". Our job is to make it it clear, to those willing to learn, WHY that is so.

[GyroRon]

Yes Peter it is, your right and I agree. It is easy to get all worked up over these issues - I have gotten worked up many times myself - but we have to check ourselves from time to time, so as not to get carried away. Remember, this is supposed to be fun??? !!!! ;)

[pwendell]

Yes Peter it is, your right and I agree. It is easy to get all worked up over these issues - I have gotten worked up many times myself - but we have to check ourselves from time to time, so as not to get carried away. Remember, this is supposed to be fun??? !!!! ;)

Damn Right!! :D

[Brian Jackson]

I think the fact is that airplane pilots don't HAVE to understand how and why their machines fly. FW aerodynamics are so well understood that any reasonably intelligent person can use easily available sources to determine whether or not a given design is viable.

I'm hoping I don't take this too out of context, but it was BECAUSE the pilot of a doomed flight knew his **** that saved more lived than he lost. Given those odds, he managed to steer a large passenger jet to an airport with NO RUDDER, NO ELEVATOR, NO AELERONS. He managed his plane on diffenrencial engine thrust alone. Yes it crashed and tumbled end over end. Y'all know the flight I'm referring to. It's everyone's worst nightmare. But that pilot saved half his passengers instead of losing them all because he knew the stability and flight characteristics of his ship. They were never hidden from him to sell more ships. He used that info and, because of it, many people are alive today.

[pwendell]

I guess I should have said Private airplane pilots. I in no way meant to question the knowledge or skill of professionals. I'll leave that to other professionals:)

[KenSandyEggo]

Harry, I guess we have to agree to disagree. I believe it is a fact that Paul has more gyro time than those 2 put together, and from what I see, they are incompetent instructors. To fly and teach in an extremely unstable gyro without at least a horizontal stab, after all the information on the folly of it has been made known, is indefensible in my opinion.

[Harry_S.]

Ken, I'm not going to argue on the point of CFI competency. How many of the thousands of CFI's of all cassifications in the known world, are what we would consider fully competent? I know several CFII and I would take instruction from only one of them. That's my opinion and I base it on the fact that he is a hard taskmaster, as well as being most knowledgeable.

I believe D. Hunne has in excess of 5000 hrs. and J. Logan has in excess of 3000 hrs. in gyroplanes. That's a lot of hours. Paul?

I have flown with Logan; he is really smooth. I have not flown with Hunne but I understand he is a hell of a pilot too. I had no instruction from Logan, so I'm quiet as to his CFI abilities.

[KenSandyEggo]

Ok. Harry. We'll leave it at that, buddy.

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

Yeh, Ken :

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. :(

Chuck E.

[Aussie_Paul]

Harry, I have flown with both the gentlemen in question. I only have a little over 4,000 gyro hours!!!!!!!!!, but I do understand basic gyroplane aerodynamics.

Aussie Paul. :)

ps. Walt, I appologise for the post in capitals, my patience ran out!!!!! and I lost it!!!!

[StanFoster]

I just want to add my observation of Jim Logan. I have been a silent observer until the last year or so. I just got back into gyros again real seriously in 2002. I was at Mentone and just lurked in the shadows. I was real impressed with Jim Logans flying and listened in on some of his chats with fellow pilots. I thought he was most gracious and free to give of his knowledge. I watched him at Mentone 2003...same nice guy...same beautiful demonstrations in his RAF.

This year I was at Mentone in my RAF and I was just getting ready to compete in the spot landing contest. Here comes Jim Logan over to this "nobody" and gave me some very humble advice I thought was very gracious of him. From what little I know of Jim...I feel I know a "lot".

Just my personal opinion and observation... :)

Stan

[Mayfield]

Just to make myself clear:

1. Jim, Duane and I have serious disgreements on gyroplane stability. We also have disagreements on safe flight procedures and techniques. One of those disagreements actually caused Jim and I to not be on speaking terms.

2. However, and not withstanding the above, I think that both Jim and Duane are just about the best you can be vis-a-vis stick skills. Both of these men routinely exhibit superb ability to master the machine they are flying. I feel so strongly about Jim Logans skill that I offered him a job with AAI. Jim declined. I feel so strongly about his skill that he would still be welcome in our stable.

3. Lest anyone think that I am wishy washy on stability: I am not!!! I do however think it important for me to acknowledge superior skill when I observe it.

Jim

[Caribean_gyro]

I have flown with more than 7 gyro CFI all of them have teach me something .
Now I met J.Mayfield in a convention (I know he wont remember every gyro pilot) But I felt that he was good man and a profecional Pilot. I am happy to see the kind of good person he is when he post his open and honest opinion. We shall all be the same.

Be honest, open and voice our feelings without getting into the personal zone. Now the same day I also met Steve MCgowan and my first thought was "wow this guy is crazy , How can he do that? "

Then I took my comercial endorsement with him and my opinion chage 180' He is a good man and an excellent instructor ( a bit crazy but I am the same ).

ChuckP

[Harry_S.]

Jim M.

Very open, warm comment re. Logan and Hunne. Might I also add...gallant.

You are indeed a gentleman.

Thank you.

[Caribean_gyro]

I have to blame Paul, SO I can feel better. I use magnaflux and the spray cloud floated all the way in to the hangar and Now I have my beautifull yellow gyro with red freckles. I should send Paul an airline ticket so he can come down and sand and polish my gyro again.

Nahh too expensive and he will be chasing the cows in my gyro, So I will have to spend this weekend sanding,polishing and consuming Coronas just becasue of my mistake.

chuckP

[Aussie_Paul]

Sorry Chuck!!!!!!!!! LOL

Aussie Paul. :)

[ben]

dont you guys ever get bored bashing a good man like jim logon, i have never seen such hate for a man like some of you gyro-gods have for jim. even if he put a stab on his machine it wouldn't stop ya'll, you just start bitch'in about him not being clt.

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

Ben :

A couple of comments regaeding your post.

First , have you ever wondered why there so many of us who do not hold Jim in very high regard?

Could it be that there are only two gyro instructors left in the RAF organazation that still back up the company claim that the RAF2000 is stable and safe?

By the way I do not hold him in high regard because I do not believe that a professional flight instructor should teach people that they can be taught to overcome the physics of a high thrustline gyro to bunt.

Heaven knows there are enough of RAF's former customers in their graves that did not have the skills to prevent their RAF2000 from bunting.

Chuck E.

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

i am also a student of jim logan i find him to be a honest man and a very good teacher.and i am not going to sit back any longer and let you guys bad mouth him any longer. you know when i asked his why he doesnt post on this forum. he didnt say a bad word about any of ya, and yet you all do nothing but talk **** about him its a shame he has 2800 hours on his raf and you guys say its luck.
__________________

Ben :

Once again let me try and explain why I personally hold Jim Logan in low regard " as a flight instructor ".

I own a Cessna Aerobat Texas Taildragger that I use to re-teach commercial pilots how to fly.

We all should know that the Aerobat will recover from a spin as long as the Cof G is within the proper range and you use the proper control inputs to recover from the spin.

But lets say that I did not fully explain the C of G issue to a new pilot who had no understanding of aerodynamics and that student decided to put the battery in the tail thereby bringing the C of G way aft of its designed range.

Now lets assume that I knowing this said nothing and the student said he / she was going to do spins with the battery in the tail and died because the C of G was way out of the envelope.

Would I not be morally responsible for that students death by neglecting to warn the student of the danger of flying an aircraft with the C of G in a range that recovery from a spin would be impossible?

Furthermore if I owned an aircraft that was way out of C of G would it not be morally irresponsible of me teaching in it?

Chuck E.

[Vance]

Chuck, I flew with Jim Logan and I liked him very much as a person. He was paitent with my dificulty with PIO and my only challange with his teaching had to do with not being clear who had control of the aircraft. I was used to a more formal hand off of control. Steave Mcgowan had a similar style. I prefer Jim Mayfield or Terry as instructors because of this.

Chuck, that is a very thoughtfull post. I had not thought of it in those terms. We had some people die locally because they did not secure their cargo and did not properly calculate their cg. It was slightly aft and as the aircraft piched up they ran out of control, the cargo slid rearward, making things worse. They stalled and droped in on the right wing, killing them both. This made your example expecialy meaningful to me and I could feel your passion.

Jim did not in any way discouraghe the use of a horizantal stabilizer and he was the first to bring it up. He was aware of my experance with other autogyros so we did not focus on aerodynamics. I beleive that until I muffed the landing he thought I knew more than I did. The first time I flaired too high because I was used to a taller ship and the second time I overcompensated and flew it into the runway. He did a very good job of saving us.

Please here me when I say I am not disigreeing with you. Thank You, Vance

[KenSandyEggo]

Ben, no one has bashed Jim Logan the man. What is being bashed are his teaching methods, the information he passes on to students, and from my point of view, plagiarizing and readjusting sentences and paragraphs in the Rotorcraft Handbook to make a dangerous maneuver appear safe. I'm sure Jim never beat his wife or dog, probably goes to church and leads an exemplary life. This has nothing to do with propogating unsafe designs and maneuvers.

[ben]

Ben :

A couple of comments regaeding your post.

(First , have you ever wondered why there so many of us who do not hold Jim in very high regard? )Chuck E.

1)chuck, it seems to me that the so many of of ya turns out to really be 2 maybe 3 guys

(By the way I do not hold him in high regard because I do not believe that a professional flight instructor should teach people that they can be taught to overcome the physics of a high thrustline gyro to bunt.)Chuck E.[/QUOTE]

2) let me get this straight, just because you believe differently on how a gyro cfi teaches that gives you the right to trash his good name? it must be nice to be holy-er then thou.

3)and chuck will you please tell ken to level off a gyro or a plane #1 attitude #2 power #3 trim tought to me by jim logon

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

Ben :

You can't explain why Only Logan and Hunn are defending and training on the RAF2000 which is a very, unstable design due to having a excessive high thrust line and no H.S.

Ken is correct with regard to leveling off in an RAF2000, sure you can level off using the same proceedure as any stable in pitch aircraft...but you are leaving your self even less pitch authority at full power due to the added push over of the propeller thrust line .

Maybe some day the light will come on and you will grasp the simple fact that there is no reason to Fly, train on or defend an unstable machine when there you can easily find stable machines.

One more time Ben, I see no reason why Logan and Hunn cannot teach and fly in stable machines, but just wait awhile and sooner or later someone else will bunt to their death for no good reason, anyone that does not see the moral issue surounding this subject is an easy victim of unorthodox instructors such as Logan and Hunn .

Chuck E.

[Jerseywing]

I just need one thing cleared up...Is RAF the only manufacturer that has ever made a gyro with a poor design? I look at the early air commands and they seem to have the same design flaw unless you modify them too. Barnett sems to have the prop pretty high as well. Whats the diff?

[ben]

chuck, what i dont understand is steve mcgowen up until this summer. was training in what you would call and overpowered high thurstline machine in witch you would by your own definition say to be unstable yet i never heard you or ken go after steve like you go at jim. i just think you have a hard-on for raf .

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

No.

The difference is the other manufacturers have changed their design, and for sure do not "force " their company instructors to teach unorthodox stability voo doo.

Chuck E.

[Jerseywing]

OK just curious thanks