Hanger/shop Ideals

[Friendly]

I am building a 24x24x12 prefab shop for my gyros. I am interested in any ideals anyone has that they consider space saving and efficient. PLEASE INCLUDE PICTURES. Ideals for blade storage, painted floors , Hoist (for checking that gyro angle out, or any unique ideals you may have. remember please include pictures. I remember Mike Gaspard had a nice paint on his floor, and I think it was Scott that remodeled his hanger.

[scottessex]

I used rustoleum epoxy garage floor paint from Lowes. It holds up very well. It about $50 a gallon, you would probably need 2 gal. Make sure you have plenty of light, a radio/boom box and a coffe pot :) .

You could get a simple chain hoist, or block and tackle arrangement for doing hang tests.

Basicly someplace where it is comfortable to work. Well lit and organized.

[Dean_Dolph]

Mark, I'm in the mid stages of new home planning that will include a new shop. Once I see what the costs are I may change my mind! But I'm interested in seeing what responses you get. Is 12 feet high enough for hang tests and etc.?

[GyroRon]

I think 12 feet will be too low and 24 feet may be too small for the rotorblades. But you could always go outside to do that part of the work. Make sure the door opening is tall! A dominator is almost 8 feet tall at the rotorhead. Maybe even taller.

[Jerseywing]

If your budget allows it and it gets cold enough there, radiant heat is the way to go. Nothing worse than cold concrete on the feet or back. (I assume that the shop will be for more than the gyro.) When you lay out your workbench put the drill press to the center and have the drill press table so it can be adjusted to match the workbench height this way you have room to easily work on long pieces. A center table on lifting wheels is also a good bet. Hang tests will require some serious structural members if the support will span the width of the room. A portable "A" frame may be a better choice for this. If you plan on painting/welding ventilation will be an issue that needs to be addressed. For painting you'll need a good sized filter rack and a large fan to get the proper turnover rate and keep out the particulate tha'll spoil the finish. A good craftsman shop vac, fittings from sears and some PVC pipe will make for a good central vac/dust collection system. And most important light, light, light, mount them high and low to reduce shadows. Use 4 ft bulbs they're cheaper to replace as flourescent lights lose their strength over time and should be replaced every 3 or so years. They also sell plastic sleeves for them to protect them from breaking. Also don't forget a good CO detector.

[automan1223]

Ron is right, a 12 ' cel is the minimum, Overhead door height should be no less than 12' ht. and min 10' wide. 12x12 is preffered with trailer under gyro.

Cel height in my shop is 14'. Min building code to light a shop is 12' (fumes, explosions, etc. )

Lighting. Use 8' t12 110watt hi output fluroscent bulbs. Cool white only, daylight bulbs are to harsh on the eyes. You cannot get them but at real electrical supply houses. Lowes and home depot carry the 96 watt and they are a poor subsitute. Light the poop out of your shop it helps a lot.

Floor paint. get a power trowler and smooth finish the floor. do not do it by hand. if you want to go with paint then use any 2 part epoxy paint or call a guy who does industrial floor coating systems. if not your floor finish is good enough you can use a product called diamond clear, also only available at industrial concrete supply houses. as you can guess its a clear coating but take some punishment with solvents etc. it does wear off though.

Jonathan

[Texas Armadillo]

As far as lights go, the older 4' fixtures using the old style magnetic ballast and F40CW or F32T12CW lamps, as well as the newer 4' fixtures using the F32T8 lamps and electronic ballasts, are both cheaper and quiter than the 8' fixtures. I think (JMHO) the cheapest, brightest choice may be lots of standard 4' fixtures mounted in varying spots and heigths. But, be carefull to pay attention to whether you are buying magnetic or electronic fixtures. The lamps are not interchangable. Personally, I prefer Daylight lamps over Cool White, because they are a little on the blue side, I think it's less stressfull. (grin)

The standard 8' fixture with the F96T12CW lamp, can be noisy, some of them buzz rather loudly, especially in colder weather. It can be loud and irratiting, if you are trying to concentrate. Not all of them do it, but a lot do. That is why 8' fixtures are usually used in warehouses and not offices. I'm not sure how widely available the 8' electronic ballasted fixtures are in your area. Read the labels... not all 4' and 8' fixtures are created equal, and you need to put the right mlamps in them.

The 8' HO 110 watt fixtures (High Output) Are "zero degree start" meaning they will come on easier when it's colder. They are good for lights signs outside for this reason. Standard 4' and 8' fixtures do no have "zero degree start" ballasts, so when the temperture gets in the 30's, they won't always light right up. (A trick is to take the lamps inside for a few minutes and let them warm up, then the ballast can start them)

As for benches... HEIGHT is important... so your back doesn't hurt. A mat in front of the benches, a painted floor, and lots of electrical outlets.

Movin' out...

[Texas Armadillo]

And pegboard... lots of pegboard...

[Texas Armadillo]

nt

Movin' out...

[GyroRon]

there was several articles in KitPlanes magazine this past summer about a guy who built a SeaRay Flying boat two place ultralight on his back porch deck. He used 2x4s to make a frame and covered the whole deck and frame with clear plastic so he could work in the rain and cold. His plane turned out nice, so you don't exactly need a fancy shop with a floor so nice you could eat off of to build a gyro...... Just food for thought.

[scottessex]

And to think I always thought the lights "hummed" because they didn't know the words!

[Friendly]

Great Stuff guys. I did not know there was so much difference iN flurosent fixtures. The paint tips are good too. Jonathan , I have not heard of diamond clear. Is this the same stuff that is advertised in Trade A Plane by Southern Flooring. I called them and they said my slab was not too small for them. They would have a salesman contact me. That was 3 weeks ago. I wish I had poured a bigger slab but money is tight. Ron if I am going to sweep up some of those great deals you beat me to, I gotta have some stash, don't I.
Jeff , thanks for the pictures. When I was planning a shop I had kb2 with 22 foot blades no problem for a 24 foot shop, I now have a custom gyro project and it has 27 & 29 foot blades, oops! If I had posted before I began maybe I would have caught this. My last shop was 32 by 60 and it collected more junk than anything. So I wanted to down size as well to prevent me from collecting so much junk. Thats another reason for the request for ideals about efficiency. So far most post are concerned with lighting and height. That is very interesting. I do have 4 clear skylights ordered. I have raised the ceiling 18 more inches,since your post. KEEP THE INFORMATION COMING. MORE PICTURES PLEASE.

[Mike Hook]

The t-12 bulbs can have a bad hum at times , I just install 500 8 ft fixtures in a three story bld. I wish the owner would have spent the extra money for t-8 electronic ballast so I would not be out here replacing loud ballast.

( Scottt they don't know any words cause that are not tooo bright ) :)

If anyone is interested I have about 150 used 8 foot two tube t-12 strip fixtures with tubes used. I would make someone a deal on some of them @ $6.00 a fixture with tubes. You would have to pick up here in Ohio.

Mike

[Friendly]

Mike the price is great but you are recommending I use the other ballast right. As far as the humming goes, I am getting older and my body makes noises I did not know it could make, all I need is for it to start conversing with a light fixture.lol I think ya'll have convienced me to go 8 ft electronic lights. My ceiling height is now 13'4 inches. Somebody send me some pictures of work benches, wall storage , blade storge. please.
I will post what I have gotten framed. I am checking the 12x12 door. I know I can go with 10x12

[automan1223]

Electronic balasts are the stuff. My question was will they drive a
H.O bulb ? The elec guys 8 years ago said no. That might have changed and the prices might have come down

They do hum at times its a pain. If you have a dirty power grid, even more so.
You can tweak the balasts by putting rubber backed washers to secure the balasts.

However if you live in a power freaky area like I do. Replacing spiked / cooked electronic balasts gets to be a pain. The old mag balasts are harder to cook.

All balasts will hum to some degree. How you mount the fixture and how the ballast is mounted, etc will effect the amount of hum.

if you can hear the hum then you are not working hard enough. Turn up the music !

[gyroplanes]

I installed high bay metal halide lights in my hangar three years ago. It's always daylight now. No regrets here. I get twice as much work done in the summer to the hummmm of my air conditioner. I can't stand heat or cold.

I had a trailer with a linoleum tile floor to haul my gyros around, it was great. I'm tempted to tile my hangar work area. It's tougher than paint and is easy to clean, but will tire stain with new rubber, just like the expensive hangar floor coatings.

I have a cheap water cooler in my shop that is the hit of all my hangar neighbors. If you want to introduce folks to gyros next summer, air condition your hangar and get a water cooler.

[scottessex]

I'll try to get some pics, But I agree, good lighting is one of the most important things you can do, A little paint goes a long way too. I also Have a water coolr/drinking fountain, it comes in very handy, plus an old coke machine that holds beer or soda's.
One of those roll around stools is good too.
Lots of pegboard, and some shelves to get stuff up off the floor, or some under workbench storage. I moved my air compressor, I can't stand listening to it run while I am trying to listen to a CD. Get a good moisture trap for the compressor, I am trying to find a small in-line oiler for my air tools. A good shop vac and deep sink are a plus.
I also run a dehumidifier as much as possible, just to keep the room dry, and tools from rusting. What ever you do it will cost about 3 times as much as you expect.
I just redid my whole shop, floor, drop cieling, insulated, drywalled, But it sure is worth it.
I also use a couple of carts to put tools and or parts on, that way things aren't on the floor. I still want to get a parts cleaner tank., a belt sander, TIG welder, plasma cutter...................You'll never be done with it.

[Friendly]

I had not thought of the water cooler, I like roll arounds also.

[Texas Armadillo]

"My question was will they drive a H.O bulb ?"

Nope.

The standard 8' lamps have a single "pin" on the end that fits into the tombstones in the fixture. These "single pin" lamps are the F96T12CW's.

The "HO" (High Output 110 watt lamps) do not have the "single pin" fitting on the end, they have an oblong, two contact end, that prevents putting an HO lamp in a standard fixture. These lamps are the F96T12CW/HO's.

There is also a more rare VHO lamp (Very High Output) that is not very popular anymore, but was semi-popular back in the late 70's or early 80's. It has the same oblong end as the HO lamps and can be interchanged with it. But, neither the HO or VHO lamps can be used in the standard "single pin" 8' fixture, they won't fit. And please don't try to swap out the tombstones in your standard fixture so the HO will fit, all you'll do is burn out your ballast.

movin' out.

[Texas Armadillo]

The High Bay Metal Halide fixtures are a definte improvement over any flourescent fixture in both quality of light and lumens per watt output. But, they may hang down too far for a 13.5 foot ceiling. There is a "Low Bay" Metal Halide fixture designed for low ceilings, but I think that it will still hang down too low in this application.

To keep air compressor noise down, you can move the compressor as far away as possible, and run white plumbing PVC conduit around the walls of the shop, putting a "T" every so many feet. Put female air fittings in the "T"s and then no matter where you are in the shop, you have air close by.

[Friendly]

Jeff do you know a part number or supplier for the low halide fixtures and recommend placement of the fixtures?

[Friendly]

Yes , I have "piped " my air in my other shops but it is a good reminder to put on my check list before I build my benches and wallup the peg board.

[Friendly]

Scott, I will look for you in the Sears tool section of the store, huh?

[scottessex]

I love my tools!

I finally got my MAC and Snap-On guys paid off.

[Vance]

When you plumb it is important to consider where to drain the water. Many of the things we do require dry air and a propely designed system can avoid a lot of problems. In my current shop I have thecompressor in an outhouse sort of building next to the shop. When I am doing close work I find a compressor starting next to me a disruptive experance. I take great pleasure in its distance from me. Remember to drain the compressor on a regular basis.

When I built my shed I worked hard at making it easy to sweep, trying to avoid anything that makes clean up more diffiult.

I like to weld,so for me making things hard to lite is important. I like to have a top on my rag bucket and store oil and paint well clear of the work area.

I don't think that you can spend too much time making your benches level and your floor will shift over time so having adjustment is a good thing. Good Luck, Vance

[Texas Armadillo]

Low Bays are kind of expensive, if your on a budget, flourescent may be your best choice. Keep in mind you'll be blocking your own light if the fixtures are behind you, you need seperate lighting for the bench. But, i'm sure you're already thinking of this since you've had shops before. As for brands and numbers...

Good flourescent and Low bay fixtures are sold thru electrical supply houses, like Automan1223 said. Your phone book is the best place to find one in your area. There are several brands of HID (High Intensity Discharge) fxtures. Mercury Vapor, Metal Halide, High Pressure Sodium, and Low Pressure Sodium, are all examples of HID lighting. The Metal Halide produces the best HID "light" according to most opinions. So, don't get talked into the others.

Brands like Cooper Lighting's Lumark division, Lithonia, Stonco, Daybrite, etc, are all pretty equal. When you find an Electrical supply house near you, they will let you know what brand(s) they represent. They may only be able to get one brand. Whatever they have will probably be fine.

Before you decide what to use I have some food for thought. The electrical supply house will (should) have access to a lighting calculator. You tell them the diminsions of the room, the color of the walls and floor, and the work bench height off the floor. They will run the program for both flourescent and HID lighting for, lets say, 50 foot candles at work height. The program will respond, something like... you will need 4 250 watt low bays or 8 8' flouescents... or something like that. Then price up each way. Tell them you want to think it over and then go home and post here what they say, and how much they want.

I work at an Electrical supply house, I'll be able to tell ya pretty close what their cost is and if thier putting the screws to ya. In the mean time I'll run it though a program here and see what I come up with. I'm not trying to sell you anything, you'd have to pay freight if I did. But, I'll give what info I can, it never hurts to have more opinions.

Some people confuse watts with light output, and they try to buy the same wattage HID as the had flourescent or incandescent. Wattage is just a unit of power used. (Voltage x Amperage = wattage )

Lumens is a unit of light produced by a lamp, Footcandles is the amount of light present at a specific spot.

What you need to have is 40 to 50 footcandles at bench heigth. (or floor heigth if that's where you want it) How ever many, of what type, and wattage, of fixtures it takes to accomplish that is the info you need to decide which is the most economical choice for you.

Some examples of fixtures...

http://www.cooperlighting.com

http://www.cooperlighting.com/search/brands_index.asp?brand=Lumark&app=Industrial

js

[scottessex]

Here are a couple of poor pics of my shop, please excuse the mess, as I have been building a gyro, remodling the house, and today I was doing tractor work and moving dirt.

[Texas Armadillo]

Cool pics Scott! Nice Gyro! I also like the drop in ceiling and layin lighting. I do not wish to give comment if not requested... but, have you considered placing, 2 light 4 foot strips, on the ceiling close to the walls? I see the the hanging fixture (not lit) and a few more of those near the walls would really give you great back lighting, bench lighting, reduce shadow areas, etc.

Sorry, I'll go sit in the corner now... your shop is better than mine...

movin' out.

[scottessex]

Yes I have, We just moved in a few months ago, and I have a house to redo, and a 5000 sq ft hangar to redo also, So everything gets a little work a little at a time. I have a stack of 4ft and 8ft lights. I still have to get my spray-booth set up. But yes, I will be installing bench lights and perhaps satellite TV! :D

[Texas Armadillo]

You're bringing tears of envy to my eyes... stop it!

movin' out...

[Friendly]

Yes fellows , this is what I was looking for. Some pictures and comments that I could visualize what I want to do. I guess I read too many comic books as a kid. I need pictures to get it in my head. I like the floor. I remember your first pictures did not have any mess on the floor. Now it looks real!!!lol. Is that a glass bead blaster on the back table. I like the island table. It would be nice with wheels to move around too. I was thinking maybe I will build a small roll around pegboard with sometable space so I won't have to bend down to the floor so much. I need to loose 50 lbs. nice tool boxes in the back and nothing stored on the floor so you could washout the shop if desired. Where is your air compressor. Clock is important. so you are not late for your other job. Drop Ceiling is nice for acoustics. Maybe Mike Gaspard will post some of his pictures. I will make sure my side purlins are placed to take advantage of the bench height and pegboard wall space. Please Keep the ideals coming fellows. You don't find these pictures in Southern Living Magizine. Rick you must have some neat ideals also.

[scottessex]

Thanks, and yes the island table works out fantastic. The air compressor is on the other side of the wall, out in the hangar. At the old house I had the aircomp inside the house, in the storage room under the stairs. the big advantage was it would draw in Clean, DRY air from the house, instead of humid outdoor air.

Yes A clock and a cordless phone, along with a CD changer. Are all important. The drop cieling is a huge improvement. Plus I still have access to wiring and what not.

[Texas Armadillo]

Friendly,

I have the results of the lighting calculator. I can email you PDF files if you have Adobe on your computer. It shows the mounting positions of the fixtures and the footcandle at each 2 foot square in the shop.

Basically, you could use two 250watt Metal Halide Low Bays or three two light 8' standard strips. The low bays can be aquired for around 140 bucks each with lamps included, (your cost) and the strips are about 40 bucks each with lamps included. Don't let anyone charge you more than that, in fact you should be able to get them cheaper, if you go to Home Depot for the strips.

Either way you'll have 45 footcandles at he center of the walls, 40 in the corners, and 70 in the center of the room, all at 42 inches off the floor.

js

[Friendly]

Jeff, thanks I hope other people reading this plans their lighting well. It seems to be at the top of the list of necessities. It is great to work without a drop light if possible. One less cord to worry about. Thank you for the math work. Do you have any pictures of the halide low bays installed in a shop?

[gyromike]

Sorry Mark,

I don't have any pictures to post. I have some shots of stuff in the hangar, but none of how it's laid out.
It's just a tee-hangar out at the airport.
A couple of home made store counters, a heavy wooden bench, shelving, etc.

Maybe I'll take a few pictures when I go over there next.

[Friendly]

This is an update on my shop, but I still would like some pictures from you guys so I can glean some ideals. Weather permitting, I will have the steel painted, insulation installed and roof on with one side by end of this week. It is storming right now.

[Friendly]

firs picture would not load, too big, I got this one to load.

[scottessex]

Looks good, The biggest problem is ORGANIZATION, I usually have my Wife help me organize, as She is better at it than I am, But try to keep it a WORK shop and not a storage shed. Because you will never have enough space, Cabinets work very well, if you can get some used industrial type stand up cabinets, you can close the doors and not see everything on the shelves, it keeps the area visually clean.
Maybe a shelf or two for items that you use alot.
Keep us posted.

[Harry_S.]

MESS? That looks rather neat and tidy to me!!! :D :D


Cheers :)

[Friendly]

Here is an update on the shop?hanger. I have the HO 110w light fixtures in stalled. I used the gray epoxy paint on the floor. 2 gallons, still 1 gallon short. , I used oilbase on the steel work to lighten it up also, 7 gallons. Next peg board, and plumb for air, and run some electric. I had to jump the gun a little to make sure I had plenty of clearence inside for the gyros. The door looks plenty wide and I believe I can hang test off the beam. It all 11 ga. square tubing with some beefing in the middle for an eyebolt to go through.

[Friendly]

Here are some pictures of the progress.

[Friendly]

I installed 4 skylites, for daytime lighting

[Friendly]

this is the last one for now, someone send me some pictures of work benches and peg board ideals besides the one I already received,(please)