Today Barry K made his first flight in his BEE!

[GyroRon]

Well today Barry Kroplein met me at the airport to look his bee over. It has been a while since it was last flown. I flew it to check the trim spring pressure and to make sure everything was ok. Then Barry got in to do some taxi practice with the blades spinning.

It was slow going at first since his BEE has no pre rotator and he had a hard time getting the blades to spin up without them wanting to flap, but after several trys he got the hang of it and was doing nice runs down the runway just at the point where the tail would rock back.

This was all he was going to do today, but after a couple practice runs he got even more aggressive with the power and all of a sudden found himself off the ground and flying! He did well and didn't panic and put it down just fine and came over to chat with me about it.

We stopped the blades, added some fuel, and talked about Crow hops and then he got back in and did Crow hop after crow hop for the next hour or so. He did very good and all of his landings were smooth and pretty.

He has taken instruction with Gary Neal out of Spartenburg South Carolina and has about 5-7 hours total so far. Gary hasn't indicated that Barry is ready for solo yet, so for now he will just keep it in ground effect Crow hopping. But from what I saw I think he will do just fine when he is ready to go around the patch for the first time.

Barry started building this gyro over a year ago and finally got it done early this spring. It had a handful of test flights on it by me, and I also took it to Bensen Days where it won a award for best workmanship. As far as I know Barry has not ever flown solo in any aircraft, so this was a exciting day for him!

[GyroRon]

a happy Barry going home to give his wife the good news!

[animal]

Well today Barry Kroplein met me at the airport to look his bee over. It has been a while since it was last flown. I flew it to check the trim spring pressure and to make sure everything was ok. Then Barry got in to do some taxi practice with the blades spinning.

It was slow going at first since his BEE has no pre rotator and he had a hard time getting the blades to spin up without them wanting to flap, but after several trys he got the hang of it and was doing nice runs down the runway just at the point where the tail would rock back.

This was all he was going to do today, but after a couple practice runs he got even more aggressive with the power and all of a sudden found himself off the ground and flying! He did well and didn't panic and put it down just fine and came over to chat with me about it.

We stopped the blades, added some fuel, and talked about Crow hops and then he got back in and did Crow hop after crow hop for the next hour or so. He did very good and all of his landings were smooth and pretty.

He has taken instruction with Gary Neal out of Spartenburg South Carolina and has about 5-7 hours total so far. Gary hasn't indicated that Barry is ready for solo yet, so for now he will just keep it in ground effect Crow hopping. But from what I saw I think he will do just fine when he is ready to go around the patch for the first time.

Barry started building this gyro over a year ago and finally got it done early this spring. It had a handful of test flights on it by me, and I also took it to Bensen Days where it won a award for best workmanship. As far as I know Barry has not ever flown solo in any aircraft, so this was a exciting day for him!

that is so cool, congrats to Barry on his flights,A solo is a solo no matter how high ya get. I bet by the next ROC he will be burning up the sky..:)

[barnstorm2]

Contratulations Barry!

-Tim O

[banaari]

Way to go! :)

John

[Aussie_Paul]

.......That is an instructors nightmare!!!!

"and all of a sudden found himself off the ground and flying!"

I will get flamed for this as I do in Oz, BUT that is not how it should be done. :eek: Ron, you are at fault as well. :D

"Someone not signed off for solo and a great hands on pilot who is not an instructor "helping", geez." :eek:

It is no wonder that gyros have a bad name.

I have to call it as I have seen it, unfortuately too many times.

The lucky success for Barry is great, BUT another gyro could have been killed by the "almost a pilot". :rolleyes:

Sorry Barry and Ron to spoil your excitement. :(

Aussie Paul. :)

[Victor Duarte]

paul, i just think you do the right thing, man,
if newbies like me think suddenly "oh yeah thats easy, i m starving, i ll try it, it may work for me"
you re right that may cause a "sad thread" here, i guess with ron he was well helped, but, should be a little redlighted.. just for others tempted to do the same..without ron.
your right paul
cheers

[Vance]

I agree Paul, accident's hurt us all and it is a wonderfull gift that instructers give when they teach. It seems disrespectfull to not follow their advice. I don't know how an instructor can teach things in order if they don't know when the student is going to stop listening. It is sad to me that people don't take aviation decision making more seriously. Thank you, Vance

[GyroRon]

Barry had about 3 hours of dual instruction this past Spring in Gary Neals RAF. He did very well according to Gary.

Then Barry spent another 3-4 hours this past Monday training again with Gary. According to Barry, Gary did not have to take over the gyro much at all during the whole process. They did countless takeoffs and landings both in calm winds and later that day with a stiff crosswind. They flew out of a bigger county airport and then also did some work out of Garys home airport - which is only 1500 feet long and up a hill and runway between a row of hangars! - Barry said he was told he only needed maybe one more session before he would be soloed. He still plans to do more training.

He was only supposed to do taxi practice with his blades spinning yesterday. Since he is not used to such a different gyro - compared to Garys RAF - he had accidentally gotten the gyro airborne and about 6 feet off the ground. He didn't panic and did a great job putting the gyro back on the runway.

I will admit it was probably not the smartest advise to give, but I did encourage him to go ahead and try it again. To get the blades up to the point of rockback, then balance on the mains and then add more power till the gyro is airborne, Level off at no higher than 10 feet and fly just for a few seconds and then reduce power and land. I was confident in his abilities, and he was as well. He did very well.

His gyro is not easy at all to do this in. On his Bee, as your rolling down the runway building up blade speed, the front wheel steers you and very little rudder deflection is needed. As it starts getting ready to rock back on the tail, the rudder will need more and more left pedal till at the point the gyro is firmly back on the tail, it needs full left rudder to keep it tracking straight down the runway. At this point as you try to balance on the mains, if you let the front wheel accidentally touch the gyro will try to turn sharp to the left, so it is a fine balancing act to keep it on the mains and reduce rudder if the nose wheel touches etc... Once airborne it still requires nearly full left rudder until you allow the airspeed to rise, and in these very short crow hops the speed never gets that fast, so landing has to be a fine balancing act as well cause you still have alot of left pedal input.

I know we could work on the gyro to take out some of the front wheels deflection to make it less sensitive, but after you get used to it, it isn't a problem. At Goose Creek you need to be able to make sharp turns cause space is limited and there is no taxiway.

All in all Barry did a fine job and secretly I believe he would have been ready to fly it solo around the patch, but he and I both agree that one or two more training sessions with Gary - and I want him to do a session with Maxie Wildes - will be needed before he ventures past the end of the runway. For right now he is doing just fine Crow Hopping and it is good experience for him.

As a side note, Barry has prior fixed wing flight experience so this is not his first time flying.

I posted the story about Barry cause I am excited for him. He built this thing over a year ago and between he Work and Family schedules, he has not been able to spend the time he wanted to to get his training. Like I said, he only has a handful of hours with Gary back before Bensen Days at our spring Fly in at Goose Creek, and then the gyro has just sat there since, because he has been too busy to go see Gary again till this past monday. He did so well with Gary and is finally seeing the light at the end of the tunnel.

Also worth mentioning is the fact that Barry is building a Fixed wing ultralight - a Aerolite 103 - and is all done with it except buying and installing a engine and prop. He wants to use a Rotax 503 and Warp drive prop on it. He has already been Soloed in fixed wing ultralights and could just hop in and go in the Aerolite. When I arrived at the airport yesterday, the Airport bums were trying to talk Barry into taking the 503 and prop off the Gyrobee and putting it on the aerolite. I knew this would put him even further behind in reaching his goal of flying his gyro. After the Bums left, I convinced him to leave the Bee together and to save up and do the Aerolite when the money allows. getting him in the gyro yesterday and getting him up doing the Crow hops has sparked new life into his passion to get finished and be up flying his Bee.

[ultracruiser41]

Ok...Ok...everybody calm down! What Ron said was right. Neither Ron or I are stupid and I am the one who admits I shouldn't take the Bee around the patch. I keep telling everyone that I need more hours with an instructor before doing that. I'm not a hot-dog and have a family to think about.

Am I afraid of going up and around...no...just smart not to. Crow hops are the next natural practice I need to be doing, over..and over..and over. The Bee has a landing gear as wide as the wingspan of a 747 and is very stable to train in. Winds were extremely calm and there was plenty of help at the airport if things went wrong.

Training is the key and I have no plans of doing anything stupid but remember...everyone had a "first time" they left the ground, mine just happened to be yesterday in the Gyro...(many years ago in a fixed wing)

I assure you, I will be here to type replys on the forum for many years to come.

I would like to thank both Gary and Ron for their help and patience. They are both very tallented pilots and you can learn alot by watching and listening to them. Thanks guys !!!

BarryK

[Ralph]

All this "politically correct" hand-wringing is getting a bit out of hand! It is a fact of life that if anyone is out there with a Gyrobee at anything over 20 mph and the blades are up to speed, the sucker is going to fly! The key , if that's where you are, is to know what to do when it does.

Was Barry ready? Stupid question! If he wasn't, he would have trashed the gyro. From Ron's description, he executed a number of perfect crow hops. While currently out of fashion, crow hops exhibit the pilots ability to do the following:

(1) Get the aircraft into the air - the hardest part of flying a gyro - especially with no prerotator.

(2) Precision pitch control to hold the machine level above the runway.

(3) The ability to hold a heading

(4) The ability to land

Barry is now pausing to get his instructor's sign-off prior to flying the pattern. Fine choice, but if he can demonstrate his skills to his instructor and doesn't screw up basic flight maneuvers, the sign-off should not be long in coming.

Barry did just fine. What I don't want to hear from Bee builders is something like "I was just doing a little fast taxi work with the blades up and suddenly I'm up 20 feet and lost it...". Any Bee will fly under those conditions - that isn't a surprise, its what Bees do! Stupid is to be out doing that without sufficient training to keep it over the runway and put it down without breaking something. Congratulations Barry and I will look forward to hearing about your first trip around the pattern!

Ralph

[Victor Duarte]

like in the JACKASS movie , Ron , you should have mentionned
"these stunts were made under the control of skilled and trained professionnals, don t try to do the same at home" :D

dont take it bad it s just a friendly joke ;)
to be honest i think i just would have done like Barry, so i cant be a lesson-provider.. but i will just agree if an instructor shouts to me i m fool..

[GyroRon]

Thanks Ralph, good post and right on the money. Barry will get another session in with Gary and will probably fly with me to the Briar patch to get in a hour with Maxie in the front seat, and then if both of those instructors agree then he will be up and outta here! In the meantime I see no reason he can't and or shouldn't keep practicing crow hops as it teaches the hardest part of flying a gyro and Barry was doing one right after the next for a solid hour yesterday. One more thing worth mentioning is even with no Pre rotator, Barry was still able to bring the blades up to speed, balance on the mains, Takeoff, fly 100-200 feet and then land... All in one pass at our airport. Our runway is only 30 feet wide and only around 2300 feet long total.

[GyroRon]

Victor, that movie JackAss is one of my all time favorites! Automan 1223, his Wife Katherine, My wife Shannon and I all went to see it when it first came out. We were all laughing so hard I think we might have peed in our pants! I assure you, Barry flying yesterday would not have made for a good JackAss moment.

[ultracruiser41]

Thank you Mr. Taggert for your well thought out words and to you Ronny...I like the idea of a free ride to Maxies....or do I have to pay for gas?......

Barry (just wantin' to fly) K

[Vance]

Mr Taggert, let me make sure that I understand what you are saying. I read that Paul and I are stupid for sugesting that soloing before your instructor says your are ready is a poor aviation decision because no one was hurt and the gyro wasn't dammaged. I also read that you beleive that it is because I am being politicaly correct. Have I undrestood you accuratly? If someone survives what I beleive is poor aviation decision making then, according to you, it was not poor aviation decision making. I guess that means all the dead people just weren't ready and all the live people don't need to learn from their mistakes because clearly, they weren't mistakes. I want to be sure that I am not misunderstanding you and I know where you stand. Thank you, Vance

[Aussie_Paul]

I would imagine that the positive posters for Barry are not instructors who have to take responsibility for their actions!!!!! :confused:

I can't believe that "and all of a sudden found himself off the ground and flying!" is acceptable to any responsible person. Certainly should not be to a qualified instructor.

Maybe I take all of this too seriously!!!!! :rolleyes:

Shut up Paul and go back to sleep!!!! :o


Aussie Paul. :)

[Ralph]

Vance,

First of all, Barry did not solo! What he did do was a series of crow-hops. You cite "poor aviation decision making" and then bring up the vision of all of those guys who have died teaching themselves how to fly. While those deaths are real, although fewer then one would expect if you subtract those who died flying unstable machines and even a few who died along with their instructor, they are useful for generating emotion - not in the analysis of individual incidents.

The main thrust of my post was to expect the Gyrobee to start flying under conditions that would be equivalent to a fast taxi in other machines. A thousand-hour pilot with no experience in a Bee would be equally "surprised" when the machine starts flying. While any instructor will speak out against a student working in their gyro prior to solo sign-off, it happens most of the time and it certainly happened in the case of many current instructors when they were students. In the best of all possible worlds such things will never happen, but of course they do and, if we are honest, they are common.

So, like it or not, Barry finds himself up in the air. Give a little credit for "good aviation decision making" in that he kept his cool, converted the potential "flight" int a crow hop (and did so with some skill), and did not attempt to fly the pattern. Having discovered that he could handle crow hops, he did a bunch more with the same degree of skill. My "stupid" reference was in relation to the question as to whether he was ready to do a crow hop. His success was due to a combination of the instruction he had previously received, his own prior flying experience, and the stability of the aircraft he was flying. He was obviously ready, but that does not mean that another student in similar (but not identical) circumstances would be. There is no doubt that dual instruction offers the most stress free and hazard free approach to learning to fly anything and that instructor recommendation is the most important factor in determining whether a given individual is ready to fly.

You will also note that I felt he was making a good decision to work with his instructor(s) prior to flying the pattern. Maybe his instructor will read him the riot act, but, if so, that is the job of his instructor, not somebody else playing Monday-morning quarterback. Meanwhile, given the real-world situation Barry was in, he did just fine. Maybe some would prefer that he smashed up the gyro and got hurt, since that makes for a nice simple object lesson, but don't say he was "lucky", for luck had nothing to do with it!

Ralph

[Vance]

That's weak Ralph. In my opinion he denonstrated his lack of knoledge by flying unexpedly. Luck had a lot to do with his success.

I think that it is sad that you feel you need to attack me to support your position. Flyin is dangerous and you seem to be in denial about it. Part of why it is dangerous is because people pretend it is not dangerous. An intellegent person does what they can to mitigate the risks. An Autogyro is a very safe flying machine and with a good design the pilot is often the problem when there is an incident. I feel that it is odd that you would diminish the deaths and injuries of others as "vision of all those guys".

The main thrust of your post that I got is don't listen to your instructor because he is too cautious. One of the instructors I have flown with destroyed three gyroplanes learning to fly and part of why he teaches is to help people not do that. These things happen because people like you decide that it is ok, not by some unfortunate happenstance.

It is not obvious to me that he was ready and you left luck out of the things that created the positive result.

Your last paragraph is the capper. "maybe some would prefer that he smashed up the gyro and got hurt" and "luck had nothing to do with it!" It was not an accident, it was a decision. You sir seem to be the Monday-morning quartback. It was a good decision because nothing bad happened? I asume that I am the "some" you refer to and I find that acusation offensive and outrages. Apparantly you feel that attacking me with such a statement bolsters your position.

I have done a lot of high risk activities in my life and part of why most of me is still here is to learn from everyones mistakes and try to not repeat them. Many times I have made decisions that should have proved fatal to me and because luck and skill saved me, I feel it is my obligation to remind others to not make these same mistakes as they may not be so lucky.

It is my opinion that the best decision would be to return to the instructor and operate in his presense because the instructor can see the begining of challanges before they become a problem. His experance includes his and others mistakes and there is great value in that.

It is easy to forget to be carefull and the point of my original post was to remind people of the importance of the instructor and that it is not good to remove the student from his protection. I speak as someone that has made these same kinds of mistakes and I would probably not be here if I was unable to learn from my mistakes. I don't think there is any value in pretending that because I didn't have damage that it wasn't a mistake. Shame on you for promoting this kind of faulty thinking.

Thank you for explaining how you feel about safty and training. As to your insults, now that I know you better it is what I will expect. Thank you, Vance

[Ralph]

Vance,

Before you get bent out of shape about being insulted, READ the posts. As for how I feel about safety and flight instruction, I have a consistent 14-year record in print (numerous articles in Rotorcraft, Kitplanes, and other magizines) on the subject and my self-image will survive intact.

Ralph

[GyroRon]

Ralph, sorry you got dragged into this. In my excitement for my friend Barry, I posted this thread not aware that others would be so quick to condone mine and Barrys actions. what these others don't know is that although I am not a instructor, I have given Barry quite a few hours of Right seat time in several airplanes this summer including very hard to fly taildraggers and I know his capibilities. His instructor did not give him the solo nod yet, but he knows it is close. He did 3-4 hours with his instructor just a few days earlier and he did 90 percent of the flying. He was not taking on excessive risk in what we did Saturday afternoon. going home to practice crow hops is what alot of instructors ask their students to do in between lessons.

I understand Paul and Vances concerns. No one should go behind their instructors back and attept to do anything with the blades spinning, much less Crow hops. It surprised Barry to become airborne, as it did me, it is amazing how slow your going when a Bee lifts off!. But remember he wasn't out there to attempt Crow hops, he was only going to taxi practice and learn to nurse the blades up to speed without the Pre rotator. He - with me following him on my Moped - had already spent quite a bit of time doing this practice learning how to get the blades up to speed. It was after that point where he allowed the speed to get a tad to high - which was still slow compared to what other gyros fly at - and off it went. He handled it very well and it was MY decision to get him back out there to pratice more crow hops, based on how I observed him handle the first one. Crow hops are the hardest lesson a new gyro pilot could learn, and I feel he was ready to practice them and felt like he wasn't pushing his luck. I am sure if he had asked, his instructor would have agreed he was ready as well.

[Vance]

Ralph, maybe you should READ your posts with an open mind.

I have no dought your self-image will survive intact. Denial has great power.

I beleive that training has great value and that realalistic evaluation of decisions is the path to reducing risks. I beleive that your assertation that luck has no part in survival and there fore survival valadates decisions is safty limiting. Thank You, Vance

[Ralph]

No problem Ron............Ralph

[Vance]

Ron, I know that you get it and I am always charmed by your love of flying. I see you doing exactly what I am promoting here, a re-evalueation of decisions made and a willingness to see where they are weak. I hope you don't take any of this as an attack on you or a condemnations of your actions. It is ment to be a call for thought. I hope you will continue to share your love of flying and your advice based on your experances. Thank you, Vance

[Victor Duarte]

I have done a lot of high risk activities in my life and part of why most of me is still here is to learn from everyones mistakes and try to not repeat them. Many times I have made decisions that should have proved fatal to me and because luck and skill saved me, I feel it is my obligation to remind others to not make these same mistakes as they may not be so lucky.

As a newbie, i keep this for a lesson, sometimes old warriors just teatch do make peace before war..

but calm down Gentlemen, let me go in-between, and take the bullets..
you re all valuable persons, dont get in insults or anger...

i m very silly, but i can understand Ron, Ralph, Paul and Vance and learned my lesson... i guess every reader is able to do so..

just a short story : recently, here a couple let a drunk friend take his vehicle to go home , after a good dinner... this person took the motorway in the wrong way, had an accident and killed 4 plus himself,
the family of the victimes sued the couple for not have retained him...
but the couple has no police power, sometimes you cant stop someone, so, better stay aside to prevent the worse, in anyway, i m quite shure Barry would have done this alone and hidden...better ron be by his side...

but paul and vance, on the strict principle you re fully right, no one can argue.

best regards to you all

[Doug Riley]

This is an old 2-part riddle in Gyroland: When to sign someone off for solo? How aggressive should the student's home practice be before solo?

What I've been doing is telling the student that he/she should NOT practice with blades on at all until the solo signoff. As Ralph rightly points out, a 'Bee will leave the ground at a fast walk. What's more, it can be tricky in such a mushy takeoff because of the significant torque effect that Ron describes. It's just too easy to get flying unexpectedly on a slight puff of breeze, and, if you're not ready, that torque will yaw or roll you to the point where you may capsize when you touch back down -- wide gear or not.

I got to listen to three or four such tales during my years of selling 'Bee kits. At least a couple of the guys were so bummed that they didn't rebuild.

When teaching, I first give a limited or transitional signoff for runway flights only. The student gets this signoff when he/she can do all the flight tasks for a startup and trip around the pattern reliably and confidently in light winds, without my touching the controls or saying anything other than small talk. This point in the learning process seems to come at around six hours of flight time for pilots transitioning from FW, and 2-3 more for complete aviation newbies.

By waiting this long to start practicing with blades, the student can begin the transition to his-her 1-place with reflexes sufficiently developed to handle the machine confidently when it lifts off -- as it's bound to with the blades on.

Once the student demonstrates control in crow-hops in the 1-place, I'll remove the limitation on the solo endorsement.

[pwendell]

There were really two separate events here that need to be looked at.

The first was Barry's inadvertant takeoff, and the second was the decision to go and practice crow hops.

I don't think the first was really a decision. It just happened. Perhaps if Barry, and Ron, had known a little bit more about how a bee takes off, he would have expected it, but he didn't. Under the circumstances he did exactly what he should have. He landed the aircraft immediately and discussed what happened with his 'expert'. I think overall he excercised good ADM. First by having taken several hours of dual before attempting to fast taxi. Second by having kept his cool and landing the aircraft immediately and safely. Third by having stopped to think about what had happened.

The second decision to practice crow-hops was questionable. It might have been a good idea to call Barry's instructor, explain what happened and ask what he thought, instead of having Ron occupy the role of instructor. I think it is important to note, however, that since Barry is flying an Ultralight, he broke no laws or regulations. In fact he is not required to have any training at all.

Barry is obviously a serious-minded gyro student with solid FW experience. In all honesty, he is probably not the kind of student we need to worry about that much. We don't want a less serious-minded and less experienced student trying to emulate Barry, however.

I also want to thank Ron and Barry for posting about this and being willing to discuss their experience and decisions. I hope that people continue to be willing to do this, even when they do receive some criticism. It is the only way we can learn from each other. It really helps to have a thick skin and to put your ego aside when posting here, something I'm still working on....

P.S. Ron, maybe you should think seriousely about becoming a CFI? You seem to enjoy teaching others to fly and are, from all reports, an accomplished pilot. With the amount you fly, you should have enough loggable hours for a commercial certificate in no time.

[Udi]

Becoming airborne is similar to becoming pregnant... Either you are, or, you are not. There is nothing in between. You can’t be “almost pregnant” and you can’t be “almost flying”. As soon as the gyro leaves the ground -- you are flying. You are on your own - you are soloing.

The above is not just some philosophical theory of mine - it is the way I experienced the transition from high speed taxiing with the blades turning, to flying. I have been flying aircraft for many years but only recently I have soloed in my own single place Air Command.

I want every student pilot to know this -- It is hard enough to transition from your instructor's gyro to your own. Your gyro is going to fly differently. The first time I soloed in a Cessna 152, I had the advantage of already having flown this specific make and model with my instructor for many hours. Soloing was not different than flying with the instructor on board - I only had to get over the psychological habit of having the instructor sitting by my side - ready to bail me out.

Soloing in your own gyro is a whole different story. You have no way of knowing what this gyro is going to do and how it is going to respond to your 3-axis control inputs. You haven’t yet developed sensitivity to the stick and rudder and you are not familiar with the power and lift curves of your specific machine.

You can minimize this uncertainty by spending lots of time taxiing with the rotor spinning and balancing on the mains. But the picture is going to be different the first time the wheels leave the ground.

This is why, after seven hours of dual time in an AAI modified RAF, and five hours of balancing on the mains in my own machine, I traveled to Dallas and spent 4 more hours with Greg Bradley on the tandem Air Command before making my first solo flight. I am REALLY glad I did.

I am a certified fixed wing pilot and I have flown planes and hang gliders for more than 25 years. Still, I had to travel 1000 miles SW and 1200 miles SE to get plenty of instruction before I could solo my little Air Command.

And yes - crow hopping IS SOLOING!!! Don't take it lightly. Be prepared as humanly possible to handle the unexpected. Don’t let the unexpected take you by surprise.

Udi

p.s. I, too, think that Barry was lucky. Barry became airborne without intending to. He was behind the machine - reacting to what the machine decided to do, intead of telling the machine what to do. Staying ahead of your aircraft is a biggy in aviation.

[banaari]

Please let us not lose sight of the essential celebratory tone of the original post. Whether rightly or wrongly, another Bee builder has now FLOWN his creation.

And if it was me had successfully managed that situation (even if perhaps I shouldn't have been in it) - I'd be wearing an inane grin for some days to come. And having digested the sage advice in the various posts, I hope Barry is still wearing his. :)

John

[ultracruiser41]

Thanks for the post John, It's nice to know there are so many people concerned with my progress.

To all of you that said good job and be careful, I thank you, to all of you who think you know me and my experience more than Ron does, shame on you.

I trust Ron completely and when he says don't, I don't. When he says do...I sometimes have to think about it! Then maybe I do.

It is a little insulting to hear people say "lucky". I am very well educated in both acedemic areas as well as all forms of flight. Give the student a little credit for knowing what was enough and what was too much. If I was stupid, I would have been "up" many months ago but I know my limits! I am a patient man.

If everyone is so concerned about the "rap" that Gyros have gotten in the past, then fly-one, become a CFI and make training available in more areas as well as affordable.

Yes, I built and UL that requires no instruction. Did I seek out instruction? Yes! Am I continuing instruction? Yes! Is all this banter brining me down? Hell yes.

There are ways to contribute "helpful critisism" without being a butt! Everybody take a deep breath and relax! No-body was hurt, alot of people "were" happy and I'm going to keep on keepin' on and look, listen and practice like a good boy !

Everybody be nice!

Happy skies!

BarryK

[ultracruiser41]

Oh by the way, I have been practicing without the blades on for about 8 months now....It was time to put then on and start to manage them. And FYI, I also didn't "find myself in the air". I rotated off to crow hop it so I wasn't "behind" the machine. But thanks all for your comments and I have absorbed them all.


BarryK :eek:

[GyroRon]

P.S. Ron, maybe you should think seriousely about becoming a CFI? You seem to enjoy teaching others to fly and are, from all reports, an accomplished pilot. With the amount you fly, you should have enough loggable hours for a commercial certificate in no time.

I am thinking of becoming a CFI sometime down the road. I have taught a few pilots how to fly taildraggers - they already had tricycle gear experience, and most of the " training " was in ultralights, but one recently was in my Pacer and he went to a real CFI for a signoff and that CFI signed him off after a 30 minute checkout flight - I have also helped out with a few other pilots that at the time were new to flying and wanted help. I enjoy it greatly and for the most part I have had no complaints - Secret here is to explain everything very well and NEVER Yell at a student. Anyway at some point I would like to become a CFI and it will likely be as a sport pilot instructor in Fixed wing and gyroplanes, But that will be a ways down the road when Sport pilot is more established and I got the money to get a pair of training machines.

But thanks for the "Props"

[GyroRon]

Barry, relax! I love ya! I'll even split the gas bill to Maxies! Hows that my friend! Not this weekend though, There is a Fly in at Trenton on Saturday that I want to go to. Maybe the following weekend

[Udi]

...And FYI, I also didn't "find myself in the air". I rotated off to crow hop it so I wasn't "behind" the machine. But thanks all for your comments and I have absorbed them all...
Why didn't you say so earlier? The whole reason for this excited discussion (PC, huh?) and for my post was our thinking that you did "find yourself in the air".

Glad you made the record straight!

Have a very safe and enjoyable flying, Barry! I am happy for you. It doesn't get much better than this.

Udi

[RICK MARTIN]

Sorry I've been silent for a while.

Since I am a Bee owner, this subject is close to home. Here are my thoughts:
There are no words to explain how I value this forum. Thanks Todd!
Although I think a lot of people need to learn to "argue" more respectfully, I feel that EVERY post adds to my knowledge base. So much to learn!
I recently had an experience similar to Barry's. I was trying to get about 1 foot high when a gust popped me up to about 10 feet. It wasn't that hard to handle, but it would have been terrible had I not had some training. I intend to do many, many hours of similar work, but on pavement instead of grass. A special thanks to Barry, Ron, Ralph & Peter. You guys show real class.

[Aussie_Paul]

Pavement is very unforgiving Rick. Stick to the grass.

Aussie Paul. :)

[Ralph]

Rick,

Paul is right - grass is good. While the Bee is fine on pavement, it is really in its element on grass and is designed to handle the extra stress. Given the option, I'll choose grass every time.

Ralph

[KDOG]

Yes, and God forbid a newbie like me accidently dumps the ship over on its side, I'd rather skid across grass than pavement - ouch!

[Bob Simmons]

Barry, good job bringing her down. I have about 7 instructors who watch over me. Mike Gaspard has worked with me the most and I to have soloed and have fixed wing skills. I am also learning some important skills in crow hopping. There's alot to be said about crow hopping. Its taught me mostly how to take off and land safely. All i wanted to say is (way to go and good job).Bob Simmons

[Victor Duarte]

forgive a newbie like me, but no one tried additionnal wheels? just like for kids bicycles ? perhaps it could save your money on the first skid.

[GyroRon]

My vote is for grass as well. But I would rather take my chances on Pavement than a ROUGH bumpy grass strip. If the grass is smooth - even just farily smooth - I would stay in the grass while learning.

One nice thing about Pavement and crow hops, is it is alot easier to find a nice long wide paved runway to practice off of, than it is to find the same on grass. Most of the grass strips I have visited are fairly short and by the time you get in the air, you need to land almost right afterwards. At some point it would be good to go to a long paved runway for crow hopping sessions, IMHO.

[Aussie_Paul]

If Ron had not posted "and all of a sudden found himself off the ground and flying!" or you had corrected it in the next post this would not have gone so far.

I am glad that it did though as I beleive there will be some newbies learn a lot from this thread. So, you are resposible for that happening.

I am very happy and excited for you, believe me. I still remember my first solo gyro glider flight, my first solo powered hops and my first circuit. Those are great feelings. We had no dual back in the 1960s with the gyro glider and in 1982 with the powered gyro!!!!! So continue to enjoy your Bee flying. :D

I like to have students build up to that first solo hop under supervision. I tell them that we will make the decision when to lift off and fly, not to suddenly find themselves in the air.

In my early training days when people would be doing their balancing on the mains many miles from me. They can get faster and faster balancing and then a little bump will put them in the air. I told them when they are ready to fly stop and have a break, do a couple of more balancing runs and then make a concious effort that, this time I will open the tap and become airborne. Being psychologically ready is very important at this stage.

This is just my experience in soloing people into their single place machines. Mostly people now arrange to bring their machine to me for a full evaluation to have it is as user friendly as it can be for their limited experience. :)

Aussie Paul. :)

[Brian Jackson]

Thanks, Paul. Good insight in that 2'nd line of your post! I'm one of those newbies to whom you refer, and am always surprised how much I learn from a seemingly benign thread.

By the way, In light of your near catastrtophe the other day, I want to tell you how much I appreciate your posts here. I've learned a lot from them. I would have told the same to Mr. Irby but by the time I gave it any thought, it was too late. So I'm telling you now.

Respectfully,
Brian Jackson

[GyroRon]

I thought he did become airborne without purposely trying to on that first hop. I do remember the machine came off the ground and went very nose high just a foot or so off the ground and very behind the powercurve. Barry then nailed the throttle and lowered the nose, flew about two hundred feet to get the gyro on top of the powercurve and then he landed it. So I don't know what to think, maybe he did horse it in the air on purpose. Bottom line was he was in control and never once did my heart skip a beat! :)

[Victor Duarte]

yes paul, i underline your reaction, believe me, i was mad enough to flirt with the temptation, now that i am a father, you can be shure she will not be orphan because of that temptation, and you helped.
thanks

[RICK MARTIN]

Ralph,Ron & Paul,

Thanks for the advice about grass vs pavement. Is your logic based on grass being more forgiving when a coupled nose wheel sets down un-aligned with the direction of travel? Or, assuming the gyro stays upright, is there another issue? I'm asking because as I have said before, my limited experience on grass has been obnoxiously bumpy. I fear for the integrity of the machine and want to feel the machine, not the turf.

[GyroRon]

Yes the grass is more forgiving in all aspects Rick. Sideways wheels, Landing in a crab, anything. Even if you flip the machine over, a grass strip is a lot softer on the hands face and your shoulders than hard pavement.

But if the grass strip is really bumpy then IMHO you could get bounced into a situation avoidable by being on a smooth surface. Ideal place is a smooth as pavement grass strip. But if the choices are smooth pavement or bumpy grass I will choose the pavement.