Clouds and turblence?

[GrantR]

We had a weak surface trough parked over us today that left us with some nice thunder storms and nearly 2 inches of rain earlier today. The rain broke here around 5:30 I headed to the airport around 6 and flew from 7:30 to 8 pm.

By this time, the storms had shifted about 40 miles south. Wind was coming in from 200 at 8 and gusting. AWOS was not picking up on the gusts. The MADIS weather station at the airport showed gusts up to 17mph. The runway I was using was 23 so I had a 30o crosswind to deal with. The crosswind was not the real problem I think it was the choppy air. Man it was some kind of choppy like a rough sea. It took me 3 attempts to land as it was kicking me around rather hard close to the ground.

The main problem I had was it kept on ballooning me up as I was trying to flair this was not fun so I would just go around. On the last attempt I said if I can not land it this time I am going to line up with the wind sock into the wind and land in the grass straight into it. My last 3rd attempt went well with the aid of some power. The 1st 2 attempts, I was getting ballooned and a bit of yaw and drift so I felt it was best to go around.

I am uploading a video of it. Its not the best due to vibs but its ok until I can work on my camera mount.

At altitude the air was rough too and lot of bucking up and down and side to side yawing.

The one thing I notice was that some of the could in the area had some rather turbulent looking bottoms. It looked similar to a rough sea on the bottom of the clouds. These clouds were fairly high. I was wondering if this was a indication of the rough chop I encountered. The wind was really howling at altitude. My ground speeds into the wind were about 25 knots slower than with the wind.

[NoWingsAttached]

Glad it hit you and not me. I was watching it on the radar before I went up, saw it was well south of here. We got smooth sailin this evenin

[All_In]

Weather delays????

No comment on our lack of weather here.... Nope no rubbing it in from me, not a word...

[scottessex]

Grant we got about 5 minutes of rain, not even enough to get anything wet.
Try applying extra power on landing when you are in a windy condition. Practice
the power settings.

[GrantR]

YouTube - 6-27-10 gyrocopter flying (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Md8uY2yuNg)
Here is the video. I'm still working on the camera mount.:)

[GrantR]

Scott,

That is what I did was use the power to land. I still feel this is somewhat a bandaid as we should be able to land in wind at idle or engine out. With practice I think I could have managed it by catching the ballooning.

[scottessex]

I agree, also practice maintaining more airspeed with engine at idle, when it is windy, you may have to come in a little faster, Practice, practice, practice. :)
Video's look good. What kind of mount, camera are you using?

[GrantR]

It is a Sony Handycam 30GB Hard drive/ memory card camera. I don't remember the model #. I am using a homemade wood mount with a nylon 1/4 inch bolt tightened up into the camera mount hole. I have a rubber grommet on each side of the wood board to isolate the camera. It is still shaking too much. Without the rubber the video was too bad to post.

[jcarleto]

Lewis and I have been working with Sony cameras as well. So far, the leg mount works best. You need a large mass (such as myself) to dampen all the gyro vibration.

Personally, I think the best gyro camera mount would be a cinder block, zip-tied to the camera, then wrapped in foam rubber and duct taped to the gyro. Not pretty, but I bet it'd take great pictures. Hey, and it is another good reason to use duct tape! Bonus!

:focus:

I land fast with power in gusty situations. Then I setup at flare altitude (+/-) with continued power at an attitude just behind the power curve and head down the runway looking for a spot of clean air. When and if I find a little clean air, I chop the power. If not, I go around and try again. Even on the worst of days, you can generally find a moment.

The thing to remember is you have the whole length of the runway to land. Patience always wins.

[Doug Riley]

Grant, in the rough stuff I don't flare. I just fly it on slowly with some power and dump the stick forward to the stop (and over against any cross component) the MOMENT the wheels touch. There's an instant of vulnerability in a flare, with all that disk-bottom area exposed to the breeze, no airspeed and reduced rudder authority.

The one time I rolled a gyro in gusty crosswind was the time I had a bad nosewheel shimmy and therefore chose to hold the stick back during landing. Of course, Murphy decreed that the wind would clock around and tip me over.

I recall watching a friend fly his Air Command just after a squall had rolled through. On final, he suddenly nosed down and dropped like a stone. I though he had PPOed (don't ask how I thought he could PPO with throttle at idle... mere dumb panic on my part). He landed, taxiied up and just said "Wow," wide eyed. The air was still stirred up from the storm.

You can see horizontal roll clouds at the front edges of squalls, marking the gust front. I hadn't realized 'til this incident that the turbulence can persist after the storm has passed. Wing vortices from heavy planes do the same thing, we are told.

[GrantR]

Thanks guys. I don't have a problem with using power on landing. I just perfer not to. Now yesterday I did use it because trying to land without power was not going to happen.
So what do you do in an engine out situation? I would guess line up into the wind and do a normal flare landing? It seem hard to do a good run on landing with idle or no power.

Doug,

What kind of gyro did you roll? Were you just sitting there with the stick all the way back ? I try to dump my stick forward and into the wind as soon as i feel the wheels touch.

[Doug Riley]

Grant:

It was the tandem Dom. shown in my avatar, the first few months I had it. I had not figured out how to stop shimmy (it came with no instructions, and I had yet to find the friction collar). The shimmy was bad enough that I felt the nose leg could break. So, yes, I held the stick pretty far back through and after touchdown.

I'd landed VERY hastily in some nasty, shifty wind, because the prerotator was kicking in and out in flight. (I hadn't yet figured out how to fix THAT, either).

There definitely was a getting-to-know-you period with that machine. It all smoothed out in due course. It became a favorite machine and just about all these teething problems went away.

[GrantR]

Jon,

I am not mounting my camera to a cement block. LOL I have some more ideas to try.

I guess with the rotor tilted back far its like a big parachute into the wind. I know my 23s stick up real high when the disc is tilted back. I can only imagine what that would do in some strong winds.

So what do you do in an engine out situation? I would guess line up into the wind and do a normal flare landing with plenty of speed on approach? It seem hard to do a good run on landing with idle or no power.

[dragonflyerthom]

Grant

As you can tell I fly a RAF. Last July 09, I took off with a slight cross wind component, I flew for an hour. When I came back I not only had a crosswind but also some 35 mph gust. I did one power on attempt then I did a go around. The next attempt I thought that I was landing between gusts. As I was about one ft above the runway when I committed to land. I was hit by a gust before I could get on the ground and as I had already pulled on my cyclic and was cutting my engine I was hit by a strong gust. I immediately was ballooned to 10 feet. I pushed in power pushed the cyclic forward but it was too late. I hit hard deconed my rotors which struck the pavement three times before I knew it. It bent both blades up. I then stopped them, shut off my engine and just looked at them. After I got my gyro back to the hanger I started taking everything apart. No other damage than the rotor blades. So please be very careful when you are dealing with crosswinds and gusty turbulent winds; it can sneak up on you in milliseconds. I hope this helps you and anyone else that may need this information. At the present I have 150+ hours in a Gyro. I am still a newbie and still learning every-time I fly.

[Doug Riley]

Grant, it's not hard to do a run-on landing without power. Instead of flaring at the bottom of your approach, pull back only a little -- barely enough to level out, after taking ground effect into account. With an adequate approach speed (45-50), you can coast for a second in level stance at 1 ft. or less, then settle in without jacking up the nose much more.

The real problem with this technique in a deadstick emergency is that, off the airport, finding ground smooth enough to run on is difficult. You're likely to have to land in tall grass, soft earth, or ground full of chuck holes. In that case, you're better off flaring hard (and chancing a low-speed capsize) than coming in with speed and risking a somersault. Commdr. Wallis's infamous somersault downwind-landing video comes to mind.

Of course, this isn't really landing technique, but rather crashing technique.

[cgmg]

Grant,

You're making good aviation decisions, and doing all the right things in your learning curve. When you have doubts, you're not afraid to ask more experienced people for help. Keep up the good work!

My instructor taught me to never take a bad landing, which you didn't. As others have stated, you can always go around and try again. Can't tell you how many times I've made multiple passes before contacting terra firma.

There's nothing wrong with using a little power for more authority, and to recover from a drop in your flare. I really like Doug's suggestion to basically fly it to the runway, then immediately dump the blades. Yes, it's important to try to land at idle as much as you can, but you also have to adapt to the flying conditions. Regarding your fear of an engine out in the conditions you experienced: my guess is, based on your good decisions so far, and your landing practice, it'll work out for you if you ever need it to.

Your thought of flying straight into the wind, and landing on the grass, was another excellent method to help you get to the ground, especially with a gusting crosswind component. Been there, done that numerous times.

I really enjoy your sharing your flying experiences, and your learning curve, with us. Please don't stop doing so.

[GrantR]

Thom,

That is a lot of wind especially being unexpected and gusting. I think I would have tried waiting it out if I had enough fuel or lining up into it.

Doug,
I guess my idea of a run on landing is at a fairly good clip like a tail dragger wheel landing 30 plus mph at touchdown. Even my runon landings seem especially slow compared to fixed wings. My kolb stalled around 30 but even with a runon at higher speeds it was much harder to handle than the gyro at zero speed! Got to love a gyro for that.

Mark,

Thanks for the comments. I try to make good decisions when I fly and like to ask on other who have experience. I am not an expert! Never will be as there is always something to learn. The only way to get good is practice and reasonably test your limits. Sometimes it is hard to determine how far to go as you dont know your limits until you go beyond them! I could just stick to less than 5 or 10 mph winds but I feel that will just hold me back because I am doing well in those winds and well in higher winds. I have no desire to fly in excessive winds especially cross winds. If the wind is 1/2 of my cruise speed I don't see much value in flying. At this point I think the risks out weight the rewards. Later as i gain more hours I may change my mind.

I will keep updating my progress. Hopefully i will not have to much excitement to share!

[Doug Riley]

Grant, I have a Kolb Firestar KXP, so I think I understand!

Yes, a gyro run-on landing is slower than one in a Kolb. However, there are some similarities. Just like wheel-landing the Kolb instead of flaring it to a full stall, the gyro will feel more in control in rough air if you do a run-on landing -- with or without a touch of power. You might be flying at only 15 mph airspeed and perhaps 5 mph ground speed, but at least you won't be exposing so much bottom area of that big rotor disk, like a soft underbelly!

[Early Bird Dave]

I often use a diagonal approach or land at an intersection to reduce crosswind component. It takes a little practice but sure beats a full crosswind.

[GyroDoug]

I know this doesn't help anyone that doesn't already have a machine with G-Force landing gear, but I just had to point out that this is one more scenario where having the capability of the Butterfly's G-Force Landing gear gives you some options you wouldn't have otherwise. Having a gust balloon you up 10 ft in the air and then drop you back down without enough energy to flair really becomes a very minor event with the G-Force landing gear. I keep trying to get people to understand that it is more than just a toy. The G-Force landing gear is a real safety feature in my opinion that can takes lots of "less than perfect" situations and take the sting out of them. While proper piloting skill can also address these issues, the G-Force landing gear just gives you one more level to fall back on in case you need it. It sure makes a lot of sense to me.

That said, I really appreciate threads like this as they can help us all to be better and safer pilots.

[Redbaron]

hey grant, how would you compare your kolb, compared to your gyro? tubulence wise? its nice to be in control! thought my skypup was gonna rip apart one time with its low wing loading, in strong updraft! makes ya think! :D

[Resasi]

Think about low disc loading in turbulence and severe up and down drafts???