your opinion about HIRTH engines

[Victor Duarte]

hello to you all gyro pilots, thats the sticky frenchie again ;)

well i d appreciate a little click on my poll, let me explain :

i was planning to use a HIRTH F30 engine or H30...
these engines look attractive and powerfull..

regarding the price of a 912, it s an interesting choice..

but the fact is there are really few opinions about these engines..
rotax has a good reputation also in my opinion.that would be a wise choice..

but i had a private message from someone (thank you again) that didnt want to bring it in public, and i perfectly understand it, he just gave me the answer i was looking for, that s all, just because i guess some manufacturers could get offended and it could become a war... nothing we need

so, i created this poll to allow HIRTH owners or people who have an opinion about them to express their opinion by voting...

sorry, it may look selfish, but i m shure this may be of interest for future gyro owners/builders..

so, you dont need to post a comment, just vote, it will be fine
great thanks to all

[MattPearson]

How about performance was very good, but it was unreliable and I had mega problems! :)

[Victor Duarte]

How about performance was very good, but it was unreliable and I had mega problems! :)

well i d call it : "a slap on their ass" :D

rotax, one point..

[Victor Duarte]

Hi gents, a last little poll before the vote gets closed ?
a virtual candybar for each vote :D
thanks

Todd : how do i close a vote please ? thanks

[gyromike]

Victor,

Since you initiated the poll, you should be able to edit the poll under your username.

But if you can't, and you still want the poll closed, let me know and I can close it while keeping the thread open.

[Victor Duarte]

damn, mike i couldnt find how :(, just tell me ho-to and i will do that
thank you

[Cobra Doc]

Victor;
You may want to consider that the most common use fo the Hirth engine is in motor gliders. The engine runs for 15 minutes, glides for an hour, and starts the cycle all over again. From what little I know, the engine is solid for 15 minutes at a time. I've often thought building something like a Titan Tornado and using a 100 hp Harley Davidson engine. If nothing else it would be the coolest sounding airplane at any fly-in!!
Cody

[thallett]

Hirth 2-cycle engines have NIKISIL coated cylinders. The expansion rate is greater than the aluminum piston expansion rate, so that true seizing from overheating is very rare. This feature alone is a remarkable inovation. I speak from first hand experience.

[gyromike]

Victor,

It looks like you don't have permission to close out a poll, even if you started it. If you want, I'll close it.

Just curious, why do you want to close it?

[Victor Duarte]

cody, tom thanks (i didnt figure hirth were ideal for gliders).

Mike i just wanted to close it because no votes for a long time.. so better display the results.. but i think more opinions could be interesting as the results are very balanced.
thank you

[gyromike]

Victor,

There are 25 votes so far.
How about we leave it open for now?

[Victor Duarte]

mike, 5 more votes, sounds good, ok we can let it go for a while, this was the occasion to bring the subject back :D
thank you for your help mike .

[Victor Duarte]

Some more people that won't trust HIRTH engines

The F-30 that is mounted on the Air Command tandem is really a pile of crap. When I went to fly with Greg B. at Caddo Mills, my training was delayed a few weeks because they thought they had a crack in the block (which turned out to be just a blemish). After the engine came back from the dealer a wire broke loose in the magneto, which grounded the gyro for a few more days. During my training I wasn't happy at all with the engine because it would backfire almost every time I advanced the throttle after a touch and go.

By the way - Greg is not an airline pilot - he lives in MO and works for AA out of Kansas City. He flies free with AA so he can meet you anywhere you want, including Caddo Mills, for training. Greg is a great gyro pilot and a great instructor. I recommend him highly. I was really comfortable flying with Greg, even with a crappy F-30.

Udi


He told me I was still on his list, but he has been having trouble with his gyro engine. He has a Hirth F30 on his Air Command 2 place tandem machine that he uses to train. He said the head bolts have been loosening up and blowing the head gaskets after only a couple of hours.

He's pretty frustrated with the engine and is ready to pitch it in the lake. I guess I would be too if I flew from out of state to train people and were unable to do so because I couldn't keep my machine in the air. He's had two inflight engine failures while in the pattern over Caddo Mills recently.

So, Air Command has been working on his engine while he's not there. This attempt they are safety wiring the head bolts so they can't back out. Oh, and yes, they've been in contact with Hirth. I plan to call John at Air Command today to get more info.

Anyway, Greg also said that he is working out a new motor mount so he can pull the F30 off and put a suburu on it. He commented that Air Command was also going to swap out thier tandems F30 for a suburu. Evidently they aren't happy with theirs either. I'll ask John if their having head bolt problems too or if there's another reason they want to switch. Greg said he may be training people in the Air Command gyro until he gets his engine swap completed.

I think a lack of CFI's is really slowing the growth of the gyro community. And DANG IT, I'm anxious to fly! :mad:

[automan1223]

Victor, I think your questions were off or wrong.

Hirths when they run they perform great, no one has ever said they do not have a good or great power to weight.

The problem is in reliability or consistant reliability between like setups. 2 owners can have the same machines, same engines and 1 will always have trouble and need work and the other will run forever or almost.

Plus the cost of parts will leave you hurting.

Bottom line is that it can be a finikey engine that requires a patient and concerned repairman and a precognitive intuition to repair stuff before it breaks.

Jonathan

[skyguynca]

I have never had a hirth, but out of all the Hirth owners I do know, about half had nothing but problems and the other half will swear their lives on them. I think they are really very expensive and not consistant in parts quality.

[Victor Duarte]

John, David,
the fact that half like them and the other half had problems appear clearly.
I agree, this poll was more to have an overall opinion.

I also heard these engines are pretty powerfull but also have reliability problems.
I am quite to deal with it , with, as you said, john, a pre-cognition of their problems, trying to fix or prevent them before.
I think the plug spit may be worked before.
My real problem is about how to make them repair, rotax are worldwide spread, Hirth not yet... so, i wait a little more. i have at least 6 months to make my choice.

Thanks

[Brian Jackson]

great ! i just recommend them 8 13.56%
performances are very good 9 15.25%
performances are unsufficient 3 5.08%
i didnt have any problem with it 7 11.86%
i had a lot of problems with it 7 11.86%
service is good 6 10.17%
service is unsifficient or bad 7 11.86%
never more a HIRTH for me 12 20.34%

Based on these questions and poll results, they don't really give a newcomer a good "Yes or No" recommendation.
3 POSITIVE answers:
great ! i just recommend them 13.56%
performances are very good 15.25%
i didnt have any problem with it 11.86%
TOTAL: 40.67%

3 NEGATIVE answers:
performances are unsufficient 5.08%
i had a lot of problems with it 11.86%
never more a HIRTH for me 20.34%
TOTAL: 37.28

So it would seem a very close race even when factoring in service.

As a newbie I would see these numbers and say, well it's 50/50 or a "flip of the coin" odds of being happy with a Hirth. When thousands of dollars are at stake, and potentially my life, am I willing to gamble that the unit I receive makes the 50% grade?

May I suggest that the exact same questions be posed on a Rotax poll for the same air/water cooling type. Only then can we compare apples to apples.

Interesting thread though. Thank you.

Respectfully,
Brian Jackson

[Victor Duarte]

Good idea Brian .

[skyguynca]

To be truthful, it is going to be pretty close to 50/50 for any engine choice. Just make sure that the only true answers to take into making a decision is those who have owned/or owns and flys the engine. "My friend says"(yah I know but I can give his email address and you can talk to him) doesn't work unless you can really talk with this person, because most people form a opinion without actually using or flying the product in question

[Victor Duarte]

David, you say right.
"dont' believe what they say and just a half of what you see" (unknown to me)
but this thread is interesting in the sense that the 2 major results are in the extrems, the average is common.
As brian said, there should be a thread per engine type (at least commercial ones).
Rotax live on their 5 past years good reputation , Hirth suffer from their bad reputation, but may improve themselves.

The important is the ascending or descending values (trends?).

[skyguynca]

Well Rotax started as converted snowmobile engines, When they figured out what people were doing they started marketing them as such but without improvement so there were some issues. Then when they got it all together (good example bulletproof 503) it changed there standings in the community. (Also when rotax found out people were putting gearboxes on their 583 because it used the same case as the 582, everything bolted right up, but has more power at 75 to 80 HP they change and made a new case mold for the 583 without the gearbox lugs) Now Hirth has never had a good name (I had two for the bd-5"s I built but refused to use the engines, use rotax and honda) they have had problems since the 70's with delivery and reliability since the Bede episode where he paid for 200 engines and got 25...left him high and dry to suffer bankrupcty and they got away clean because he went broke. Since they have had serious reliability issues in the public eye, some manufactures have given them a chance but to no avail........does anyone know of a company still recommending Hirth Engines in their product?

[Victor Duarte]

David,
i find here and there some kif aircrafts recommending Hirth.
Given what you said, that puts a black veil on hirth.
Two solutions : they improve, with another management or processes, or they sink.
and let rotax lead more and more... i heard they increased their prices , is that true?
thanks

[skyguynca]

Yep, that they did