Xenon turbo problems

[RotorTom]

Before I begin ... I must mention that Celier Aviation's factory support has improved dramatically since the introduction of the Xenon and they are doing an excellent job keeping owners informed and supporting enhanced safety and performance in their machines.

Now ... for the problem ...

The most recent Service Bulletin typifies what we US owners face. That is: Even though the factory steps up to support us, it is very inconvenient.

Here's the latest ... the factory determined that the "hot section" of the RST turbos need to be replaced. So, they are asking us to remove it and send it overseas.

Then, they will send us a new one. Owner pays labor and shipping. And the "shipping" is the problem. Just a minor shipment to the factory costs around $300.

WHY NOT JUST SEND US RST OWNERS THE NEW HOT SECTION? Why make us pay shipping twice? ($600 or more!)

Most of the parts are readily available directly from third-party vendors. Celier does NOT make the turbo, nor the hot section. So why not just let us order it directly? THIS WILL ACTUALLY TURN OUT CHEAPER THAN THE FACTORY PROVIDING IT FREE (due to shipping).

I see no sense keeping vendor information "secret". Owners of experiential gyros deserve to know where to source parts. The factory does not face the same liability issues as certified manufacturers. Therefore, there is no need to withhold this valuable information.

I am not suggesting that it be made public, but those owners possessing a valid serial number should be given access to the information.

www.xenonowners.com

[Chuck Roberg]

Wow. I can imagine your frustration. Plus you will be down for several weeks.

I'm not familiar with the "hot" section. How big is it. How hard is it to remove. What happens when it goes bad?

[Arnie Madsen]

Tom:

I have absolutely no involvement in your situation but (my opinion) this is a warranty situation and that is maybe causing the snags. In a warranty situation The company (turbo manufacturer) usually requires an actual defective component on his counter before he hands over a new non-defective component. The manufacturer reaches into his production run of new components and hands one over on the counter. It cost him very little and all he has to do is let his assembly line run for an extra minute to fulfill his end of the transaction .

That is the only way a manufacturer can offer replacement warranty without a stack of legal documents higher than a gyro can fly , and so much fine print it would weigh more than the gyro , and if faced with all that , the turbo manufacturer would say to himself .... there is no bloody way I am going to supply turbos to the tiny gyro market. It is just not worth it.

I like your mathematics Tom , and you are correct in seeing a much more efficient way to do it. I agree with you completely.

But our lives are filled with products that claim a lifetime warranty free replacement and we never make a claim because it is not worth it. In the case of the aircraft you are involved with , they are the ones that notified everybody of the problem before it causes harm. Have to give them credit for that. They are just trying to make it good from their end . Shipping costs are the killer here. The intent is good.

[JEFF TIPTON]

The 912 RST model uses a smaller 80 HP Rotax 912 engine (smaller than the 100 HP 912S mentioned above). This engine has been fitted with a Mitsubishi Turbo that gives full time turbo boost. At full power this engine develops 122 Horsepower and is excellent for heavier loads or high altitudes.

http://www.zenogyro.com.au/models_specs/

[GyroDoug]

Xenon Tom,

Having to deal with shipments to or from an overseas supplier is simply part of the deal when you purchase a machine from an overseas supplier. I agree, there may be a cheaper way to take care of the issue, but I suspect they are doing the best they feel they can do. At least they have taken responsibility for the situation and are doing something about it. I believe that says a lot about the company. While know one likes getting hit with a $300 shipping bill, I suspect that you have a lot more expenses than that to fly that machine so I would just look at this as one more of those costs. You have a beautiful machine, be happy!!! Most of us can only dream of flyinig a gyro like yours.

[GyroRon]

While I agree with you Tom, I can't feel bad for you at the same time. Your talking about 300$ on a bird that costs over 100,000$.

And personally, I would have gotten a 914 over a homebrew RST Rotax. Hope you can work it out. If it makes you feel better, I'd be willing to trade ya my Dominator straight up for your broken Xenon

[Gyrodon1]

KKK makes a better unit could easily adapted.

[RotorTom]

While I agree with you Tom, I can't feel bad for you at the same time. Your talking about 300$ on a bird that costs over 100,000$.

And personally, I would have gotten a 914 over a homebrew RST Rotax. Hope you can work it out. If it makes you feel better, I'd be willing to trade ya my Dominator straight up for your broken Xenon

Ron,

It's $300 each way. But your point is well taken. However, it isn't so much the cost of shipping as it is the inconvenience. I simply believe we experimental owners should be given info on vendors. But Celier is very secretive about all of his suppliers.

I would simply like the option of buying direct or upgrading or substituting. But without the basic info, it is very difficult.

BTW ... I may consider the trade for your Dom if you guaranteed I could fly it like you.

[dinoa]

Try USPS Priority mail. I think you will find rates more reasonable.

Dino

[GyroRon]

Ron,

It's $300 each way. But your point is well taken. However, it isn't so much the cost of shipping as it is the inconvenience. I simply believe we experimental owners should be given info on vendors. But Celier is very secretive about all of his suppliers.

I would simply like the option of buying direct or upgrading or substituting. But without the basic info, it is very difficult.

BTW ... I may consider the trade for your Dom if you guaranteed I could fly it like you.


600$ is too much.... Too bad they don't have a american distributor of some sort that would handle this kind of thing.

Why does the hot section need to be replaced to begin with?

Why not just look at the turbo and get the make and model and find a replacement turbo yourself?

Elsewise it is what it is.

[gyroplanes]

Dinoa is correct. USPS Priority Mail has a flat rate overseas package that is very reasonable, but has a 20 pound limit.
I also use LDM International for overseas. They are a broker and find very low rates, around the world, with reputable shippers.

[Arnie Madsen]

Hi Tom

A dealer is the buffer between the manufacturer and the customer. If everything worked as it is intended , the dealer will have a box of replacement parts behind the counter to hand to his customer in a recall-warranty situation. For example the Toyota Corporation only interacts with a few hundred dealers , not ten million gas pedal customers .

In a small market situation like a recalled turbo in a gyro there is not always a large dealer network with a large stock of replacement parts so probably that is why the manufacturer has to deal with individual customers worldwide. It is very inefficient and expensive, which of course was your original point.

But we have to remember that we are most likely talking about the turbo manufacturer , not the gyro manufacturer. It will be the turbo guy who hands over a replacement turbo for every defective one Exenon brings in from the customer base.

In summary the turbo manufacturer (by contract) will most likely have structured it that way. It is a simple contract. Any other type of contact would have pages of legalities higher than a gyro flies. Also , the turbo manufacturer probably knows less about gyrocopters than I do. He would know even less about the worldwide Exenon fleet. He just builds turbos and has a replacement warranty for every dead turbo placed on his counter.

Hope that makes sense. Like I said earlier I know nothing about the Exenon situation , I just offer a glimpse from the manufacturer's counter. And I felt like sticking my nose where it does not belong :)

Arnie

[ScottTinnesand]

I may be wrong, but I believe that they are making a modification to the existing part. This could explain why we needed to ship the part to them first.

The gentleman that bought my gyro shipped the hot section to Poland via USPS. Haven't got it back yet but will know more when we do.

Scott

[RotorTom]

By the way ... the whole point of my threat is not to complain about the cost of shipping, or to complain about Celier.

Here is the point: Experimental aircraft owners should have all the info they need to repair and maintain their aircraft on their own.

It is not a certified aircraft. There are times it is actually beneficial to know why the factory is doing what they are doing instead of simply issuing edicts.

For example ... are the turbos failing? Is there more power to be gained? Are they afire hazard?

Why replace the hot section?

I can get a local turbo shop to rebuild the whole thing for $150 to $200. But I'd like to know what we are targeting and why.

Kit and ESLA makers should not keep owners in the dark!

[Arnie Madsen]

By the way ... the whole point of my threat is not to complain about the cost of shipping, or to complain about Celier.

Here is the point: Experimental aircraft owners should have all the info they need to repair and maintain their aircraft on their own.

It is not a certified aircraft. There are times it is actually beneficial to know why the factory is doing what they are doing instead of simply issuing edicts.

For example ... are the turbos failing? Is there more power to be gained? Are they afire hazard?

Why replace the hot section?

I can get a local turbo shop to rebuild the whole thing for $150 to $200. But I'd like to know what we are targeting and why.

Kit and ESLA makers should not keep owners in the dark!

Yes Tom. Your position is correct. You have not been mis-understood at all. You have the same concerns we all would have. We would all want to know more if we are an owner of that product.

I am now speaking from behind a manufactures desk and will try to highlight the positives:
1. There was no known problems until the factory let you know.
2. They did let you know.
3. They did not tell you all the details.
4. If they knew all the details they would have let you know.
5. They are trying to solve whatever glitches they have discovered.
6. Once they have solved any problems they will probably fully disclose what they were.
7. They are not at that point yet , but they include you in the notifications.
8. A factory that does that can be trusted (my opinion)

[MAK]

For example ... are the turbos failing? Is there more power to be gained? Are they afire hazard?

As far as I know the main purpose of the new hot section is for altitude compensation. The TCU is doing this job on the Rotax 914, but none on the RST. We had the problem in South Africa flying from +- 8000ft density altitude to the coast, the RST's MAP will go from 38 to almost 50 and run rough. Apparently the new hot section will reduce or eliminate this problem. The turbo manufacturer does sell the hot sections separately (640 euros), but then you need to pay for it, but when you return your old one the re-machining doesn't cost you anything.

[RotorTom]

... but when you return your old one the re-machining doesn't cost you anything.

Except $600 in shipping.

The factory is "re-tooling" them. I am sure there are qualified shops here in America that can do the same. But without specs, we have no choice.

Again ... I am not complaining about Celier's service, simply asking for specifics so we, as owners, can decide what to do for ourselves. This is experimental aviation.

[Jason O]

Hello Tom,

I think the disconnect is that it is not "experimental aviation" to them. They sell complete aircraft, not kits. I understand what it is here in the US, but that is not the way the rest of the world looks at these aircraft and not the way the manufacturer sees it.

I totally understand what you are saying and it would frustrate me also.

Jason


Again ... I am not complaining about Celier's service, simply asking for specifics so we, as owners, can decide what to do for ourselves. This is experimental aviation.

[NoWingsAttached]

http://www.turboperformance.com/

These guys have been around since the 80's. You might want to talk to them.

[Fly Army]

You know what I would do Tom is sick one of those TV consumer advocates on em !!!! :lol:

[ms80831]

Hello Tom,

I think the disconnect is that it is not "experimental aviation" to them. They sell complete aircraft, not kits. I understand what it is here in the US, but that is not the way the rest of the world looks at these aircraft and not the way the manufacturer sees it.

I totally understand what you are saying and it would frustrate me also.

Jason

BINGO.

And I would be fine with that (Factory LSA non- Experimental)

IF ..........

Celier had a reasonable dealer network or a parts and service center in the US.

But they don't , and who can blame them with the FAA situation on LSA's.

The only solution I see to this problem is to join with EAA, PRA, and other 's interested in Gyro saftey issues to put pressure on the FAA to approve gyro's for LSA.

I have said on another thread..." We who live above FL060 have been denied the pleasure of reliable safe sport rotorcraft for a long time. Finally, the door is opening due to new technological advances in light turbocharged engines.

XENON has lead the way. I feel lucky to have one of the 10 XENON machines approved for the US before the ELSA window closed.

We as the Sport Rotorcraft community must put pressure on the FAA to allow LSA Rotorcraft to take their rightful place in the sport aviation community by approving new LSA rotorcraft standards.

The XENON shows what advances await this long overdue move. ..."


...Mark...

[MAK]

We had flown about 20 hours now since the installation of the new turbo and I would like to report back that according to me nothing has changed. I was under the impression that the new turbo would help to compensate the boost at different altitudes almost like the TCU on the 914. I still get an overboost on cold mornings and an underboost on warmer days.
The only thing that I can see on the new turbo is it makes the manual adjustments on the turbo for the boost compensation easier.
Not sure it is worth the 640 Euro plus shipping that we spent on it.