View Full Version : Question about air command kit
10-17-2004, 12:54 PM
Hi, i came from Madrid (Spain), my english is very bad sorry :rolleyes:
I want to know the price of this gyro less engine ------> http://www.aircommand.com/p0002506.jpg
Is a good option to buy a gyro less engine until you finish it? (i dont know if i am apt for the construction)
Price of engine???
Wha it contains basic kit?
Thanks and sorry for my english and my ignorance about gyros :)
10-17-2004, 01:03 PM
Commander Elite 447 (4OHP)Legal Ultralight 12,645.00
Commander Elite 503 (52 HP) 14,090.00
Commander Elite 582 (67 HP) 15,725.00
Commander Elite Single (Less Engine) 10,435.00
Commander Elite 3202 15,495.00
Commander Elite 3203 17,495.00
Commander Elite Tandem (Less Engine)Lt Wt 15,070.00
Commander Elite Tandem (Less Engine)Hvy Wt 16,735.00
Commander Elite Side-By-Side F-30 21,792.00
Commander Elite Side-By-Side (less Engine) 14,080.00
Commander Elite F-30 Tandem (basic kit) 22,475.00
Commander Elite F-30 Tandem (All Options) 27,475.00
From the web page here: http://www.aircommand.com/gpage1.html
10-18-2004, 02:30 PM
Hola Cpl22. Esta commander es una Commander Elite de una persona (sin motor)el costo es $10,435.00 Dolares americanos sin el transporte. Es tremenda maquina. El kit incluye todo menos el motor ni las paletas.El precio del motor es depende de cual estes interesado.Espero que te haya sido de ayuda. Ha! Escribes muy bien el Ingles.
10-18-2004, 02:31 PM
By the way your English is very good!
10-18-2004, 02:40 PM
tim, i plan to use a F30 , good perf good price (they say 1000hrs before TBO :eek: ) but i really have no feedback about reliability, maintenence costs etc, a lot of talk about rotax rotax, have you heard about good/bad comments ? others wellcome also
10-18-2004, 05:45 PM
I have never owned a Hirth so I am not an authority on them.
I would strongly suggest asking an owner.
What I can say is that at Benson Days 2004 the only engine outs were Hirths that spit out spark plugs. I have two friends that are Hirth owners and both have had problems.
I have also heard that they have good customer support, at least lately.
The internet is full of problems that Rotax owners have had. So the question is: what is the failure ratio. I donít know what this is, but myself and my friends with Rotaxs have had few problems.
Ron here on the forum flys a lot of gyros and light craft. I donít know what his opinion is but hopefully he will read this tread and post it here.
10-18-2004, 06:00 PM
tim , by spitting you mean the sparks out ?? or only the wire...
well, only by reading your friend's experience , i have to take care, i must say their prices VS rotax are significantly low.
i found a website where 2 guys were speaking about rotax vs hirth (i ll try to find it again) but it was just a rotax dealer vs a hirth enthusiast so, no objectivity..
you gave the configurations and the biggest engines are hirth, thats why i thought.... maybe the US market trusts hirth, i see no 912 or 914 ...
what is your engine ? a lot of serious problems?
thank you tim
10-18-2004, 06:57 PM
Air Command for what ever reason seems to have made Hirth the engine of choice for their kits but I am sure they will sell you a Rotax or at least give you a rotax mount with your kit.
I have a vintage points Rotax 447 that I have well over a hundred hours on with out any problems what so ever. Also, I have a Subaru EJ-22 that has had a continual stream of minor issues...cooling..oil leaks..and conversion issues.
The Rotax seem good so long as you follow the maint. schedule strictly.
I did not inspect the Hirth's in person but I was told that the plugs exited the engines.
I restore old bmw motorcycles (well I did before this gyro thing killed all my time and money) and they have alum. heads and tend to spit plugs themselves. The standard fix is to heli-coil the plug threads. I have even helicoiled heads that have never lost a plug just because the helicoils are much stronger then alum.
The reason the BMW engines spit plugs is often because owners torq the plugs in to tight and fail to use anti-seise compound which the manual recommends. I have been wondering if that might be what is happening to the Hirths. On 2-strokes it is wise to check the plugs often and that would compound the issue.
The other Hirth issues were with the cylinders and I don't recall the specifics so I won't try and repeat what little I do remember.
10-18-2004, 08:52 PM
The only gyro that went down at Mentone this year had a Hirth and it spit a plug. The latest issue of the PRA mag reported it was a Rotax but they got it wrong.
Carl Schneider, who has flown with Hirths for years, was walking around scratching his head trying to determine why all of a sudden the Hirths are having this problem. Carl visits here occasionally but I don't remember his posting. If he has found out what the problem is then may be he will give us some insight.
10-19-2004, 08:11 AM
I have done a lot of reading on one engine or another over the last few years and it seems to me you can't go wrong with a rotax.I have a Mac but am planing to change when it starts to wear out.And yes your english is very good,alot better than my Spanis.Thanks for joining us,don't be a stranger.
10-19-2004, 10:18 AM
The Gyro picture in your post is my recently completed Commander Elite. Dang, my gyro is more popular than I am...
It only has about 7 hours on it now, and so far it has proved to be a strong, well running engine... and hasn't spit anything out but exhaust. Mui Bien!
It has the Hirth 3203, 65 (or so) HP, and is air cooled. The reason I chose the Hirth was because the Rotax (582?) 65 HP engine is water cooled and I didn't want to mess with a radiator, hoses, weight, etc. It swings a 68" warp drive prop with no problem, and the gyro has more power than it needs. (a good thing in my opinion)
As posted above, the cost of that basic kit "Commander Elite 3203 $17,495.00" includes almost everything you really need to get in the air, but does not include, disk brakes, rotor brake, or pre-rotator. So the cost for those options must be added if you want them. To put one together with all the bells and whisles will run you near 20 grand. That's expensive, but it's a very nice gyro.
The kit was easy and fun to put together, but some things are not discribed in the instructions, so you'll be calling Air Command asking questions from time to time. All you need is a drill, some vice grips, a rachet and socket set, a rubber hammer, and some wrenches. A vise and an inch pound torque wrench are a must.
I bought the gyro in three stages. The airframe, wheels, rotor head, and stuff like that. Then the tail, rotor blades, prop, and extras like the pre-rotator. Then the engine. It has electric start which I suggest strongly.
You see the phases of it's constrution here...
10-19-2004, 11:45 AM
I heard that the Hirth plugs have to be torqued to the proper value. If they are not torqued properly they have a tendency to "blow" out. I used to torque the plugs in rotax engines by feel. With my Hirth engine I use a torque wrench.
The original Hirth F-30 engine used the same type of plug that was used in a Rotax engine. The newer Hirth F-30 uses a smaller diameter thread plug. Don't know if this was to keep the larger plugs from blowing out.
Personally I still prefer a Rotax. Mostly because it's so much easier to get service on a Rotax.
10-19-2004, 11:55 AM
hi chuck, you had the right words, i suppose rotax services are much easier to find, particularly in US.
so you fly a F30 ! how is it (when working) ? regarding the price of a 912.. you understand i hesitate... is it really powerful , does it come smooth or peaky ? any carb problems? icing or that kind of stuff ?
BTW hirth engines are in germany whitch is not far from me..
so thet really spit plugs ! have they a conic screw? did it happen to you ?
they have shifted heads, could it come from this?
thank you !
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