Cross-Country Gyro Wanted - Recommendations?

[Phil MacTaggart]

[I put below comments in For Sale, when it should have been here].

New to Gyros, but I have been up in a Dominator, and have about 11 hours of recent ultralight fixed wing instruction. My only other air experience has been 18 skydives.

I would highly appreciate advice. I intend to obligate funds for purchase and training mid-November and have to make decisions on what to buy and how to get the right training between now and then.

Can I beat buying a Barnett J4B2 factory assembled with back seat used for extra gas and storage?

I am also thinking about a McCullock J-2 (Ground resonance not withstanding). I am not interested in having a passenger, but am interested in range and speed and safety. The OUTCONUS models are very interesting, but seem high priced for what you get and training seems improbable.

For safety purposes and the general logic of its design, I have contemplated a tractor, but I found the LittleWing has to be put together yourself. (I just did early retirement, and would prefer to put time and energy into flying versus manufacturing; if I come up with a reliable enough machine, I intend to tour Mexico, where I have spent a number of years).

I am also strongly considering a modified Pitbull, and am waiting on a proposal from Rotowerks.

I would like to take instruction for a gyro sports pilot license to be completed by the time the machine I purchase is completed by the manufacturer, and preferrably in a machine similar to the one I'm buying.

My email is taggart@mchsi.com, address 21 Hickory Hills, Geneseo, IL 61254, phone 309-441-5103, fax 309-213-2415. Any and all advice will be very much appreciated by any of these means. Thanks.

[Screw]

Screw-In

From what I've heard about the Barnett J4B2, they are a handfull. My Instructor Steve McGowan didn't like flying the one hangered at Macon, and the guy that owns it has yet to solo it. He is Scared to death of it. I do not reccomend this Gyro to anyone.

McCullock J-2 is on the underpowered side and because it is a certified aircraft, the up keep has to be maintained by an appropriately rated A&P and parts are very hard to find since no one makes them anymore. I do not reccomd this gyro as a gyro for a beginner iether.

The Little Wing is an excellent gyro currently holding altitude and distance records. As you say, you have to build it.

Ernie Boyette does make a hell of a gyro in the Dominator series. A nice two place should make a nice affordable cross county machine with a semi open cockpit. He will build your gyro for you however you want it with engine of your choice. So long as the engine is a Subaru or Rotax. Here is his website:
http://www.rotorflightdynamicsinc.com/

Groen Brothers Aviation has one of the nicest gyros on the market. Enclosed two place with Centerine Thrust with excelent performance. Here is there website and some goos pages from the website:
http://www.gbagyros.com/
http://www.americanautogyro.com/
http://www.americanautogyro.com/APV/APV_Main.htm

That last page is a complete Cross Country Ready Turn Key Machine for less than 63k.

Which machine is best is a question only you can answer for yourself with whatever mission you have in mind.

Screw-Out

[Phil MacTaggart]

Thank you for the reply.

About the Barnett J4B2 Tandem, do you know what are the problems with them? The photos seem to show a high thrust line.

I would like to spend about 1/2 of the 62K you mention.

[Phil MacTaggart]

Also, I would think that a fully enclosed tandem would work out better for less wind resistance and being able to utilize the converted passenger spot for stowage without cutting down on visibility.

[Screw]

Screw-In

Steve said that the machine was unpredicable. It took off mains first, leaving him on the nose wheel until the total aircraft was airborn. He said was very unnerving. It is a High Trustline machine which means it could be a dangerous machine in the hands of a beginner.

Centerline thrust is the way to go. I don't know what Ernie would charge to build you a 2 place, but he is only an email or phone call away.

His Son, Mike Boyette is a member of this forum. He may be able to help.

Also, Don't count out the enclosed or partially enclosed cabins. That issue is really a flying prefferance. I learned to fly in an open place, and the wind on my face really helps me judge all conditions of flight. I'm not sure how well I would like an enclosed machine. Haven't been in one yet. I have flown a Dominator and they are great!

Screw-Out

[barnstorm2]

Phil,

As John as already stated open-closed cabin is a matter of preference.

I my opinion what makes a gyroplane suitable for x-country is the reliablity of the engine and how much fuel it can carry.

I would look for a gyro powered by a 912 Rotax or Lycoming.

Along with the machines mentioned in the posts above I would consider the Magni Autogyro which is suitable for around the world attemps and the Littlewing which holds a number of impressive range records.

[Phil MacTaggart]

Thanks for the comments. The Magni is too expensive. The Littlewing I would really like to contemplate, and I have an aviation mechanic who regularly puts together Challengers, is presently putting together a gyro for someone, and I think he would entertain doing that for me if the machine was farther along than just plans. I am closely considering the Pitbull, which I understand John Van Vorhes does most of the work on before delivering. I am waiting on a proposal for a modified Pitbull side by side that might give me enough room for luggage, but perhaps not. What about the Subaru engines?

[barnstorm2]

Phil,

Please note that my OPINION is not consistant with many of my friends opinion on the topic of the Subaru engines. My opinion is consistant with my personal expience with my engine and a half dozen friends with Subaru engines.

All things the same ( meaning budget is not an issue ) I would rather have a Rotax 912 or Lycoming then the Soob.

I am assuming since you want a 2-place class machine the Soob engine you would want would be a EJ-20, EJ-22, or EJ-25.

If you can get a low mileage EJ-22 chances are once you work out the bugs you will have a great reliable engine at a great price. However, sometimes you end up with a lemon and then it is one thing after another. This has been what I have had to deal with. Ron tells me I am not the only one to go through this.

Another advantage of the soobs is the wonderfull support online.

Currently I have not been able to find a good affordable planetary redrive still in production.

If your conversion process goes smoothly and she gets say 40hrs on her with out problems chances are you will have clear sailing and cheap.

Had I been granted clairvoyance I would have budgeted for having my engine rebuilt before converting it or buying 2 or 3 spare engines.

[Russell]

Tim what do you mean by BUGS????
I dont think I have ever seen a Subaru car sitting on the side of the road, So any bugs must be something we are doing in the swap to aircraft. In all the flyin's I have been to I have NEVER seen a problem with a Subaru. I have seen my share of rotax's,hearth & mazda engine problems. I guess I have not read your posts on your engine problems. (sorry I dont read them all). Has it been an internal engine problem or an ignition or induction problem not from the factory parts?? I hope this post does not seem negative. I am just asking the question.
Off to Daytona for a week of BIketoberfest. Russ :D :p

[Rotornut]

Hey Russ, Jim (junkyard wars) and Sandy Waite are already in Daytona for the event. Hope you all run into each other. MJ :)

Phil, Little Wing Yes! They are Great Machines.

[barnstorm2]

Russ, If you browse both the car and airsoob forums online you find a number of problems that are common with the EJ-22s. They don't always develop but with a large enough sample of engines patterns do develop. Some of these problems only show up when you convert the engine for aircraft use some will happen with either use of the engine. Here are a few off the top of my head:

1. Adaption to Aircraft use common problem: Cooling. The EJ-22 is HIGHLY sensitive to even small amounts of air in the cooling system.

2. Adaption to Aircraft use common problem: Cooling. The EJ-22 actually needs the coolent flow to be restricted. If you take the thermostat out completely many people run into problems.

3. EJ-22 General Problem: The plastic cover mounts over the timing belt are held on by a set of screws which often crack or break the plastic mountings no matter how carefull you are in removal/application

4. 3. EJ-22 General Problem: Oil leaks commonly develop between 50-80K miles in the following places (these are known problems and new seals that help fix the problem are available from the dealer): Front cams behind belts, behind oil pump, valve covers.
" The most common leaks are the:
1) Oil Pump (est. $45.00 parts)
2) Cam Seals (est. $36.00 Parts, w/ oil pump reseal.
3)Valve Cover Gaskets (est. $100.00 Parts)
4)Oil Seperator Cover (est. $25-$50.00 Parts)
"

5. 3. EJ-22 General Problem: Water pump impeller slippage.

Here is some great soob info: http://experts.about.com/q/831/3098528.htm

[GyroRon]

You can buy a pre welded little wing cage for less than you'd think! Ask Ron Herron about it.

As for Subarus, they are good engines but only if done perfectly right. The smallest screw up on the installation will come back to bite you later. I have had nothing but problems after problems with every subaru gyro I have owned and flown - 3 separate machines -

At ROC this year there wasn't more than probably 20 gyros but out of that only one gyro had a engine problem crop up and it was a Subaru EJ-25. Something on it just went wrong and it wouldn't start and after alot of messing with it, it did start but then the Re drive was found to be broken.......... AGAIN!!! - wonderful New Horizons redrive that just had been rebuilt. I would trust flying over the woods and water in my Rotax.

[Phil MacTaggart]

Thank you all for the comments so far. I will continue to look forward to any and all further suggestions on coming up with a fully enclosed cross-country machine (2 seat modified to provide luggage instead of passenger).

[barnstorm2]

Some people like the Hirths but personally, I have seen them spit out plugs and CYLINDERS too often for me to buy one.

Ron what went wrong witht he NHC redrive? was it the issue with the sun gear hardness or something else?

Another problem with Soobs is the HLAs will sometimes fail. They fixed this on the 2.5s by not using them any more.

[GyroRon]

not sure what failed on his redrive Tim. But I think I overheard him saying he had just put in the "New" gears into it.

what the heck is a HLAs???

[_MOL_]

Phil,

Try and take a look at this one.

http://www.aerocopter-europa.com/

I have flown it, and it flies great. No tendency to PPO or PIO :)
If you have any questions, just ask.

[Texas Armadillo]

No one has mentioned the RAF2000's. Probably because they are not centerline thrust. But, I have flown one that had a big horizontal stab and it flew great. I only had a whopping 2 hours of flying time in an Air Command Tandem prior to my RAF flight. After one trip around the pattern the instructor took his hands off the controls (but was ready to help out if I needed it) and I flew it for the next hour, and I had a blast. Flew out over the city, did touch and goes, it was very stable and forgiving. You can get an assembled for around the 30,000 you want to spend. There are hundreds if not thousands of RAF's flying around. But as I stated above they are not centerline thrust... and that is the only thing that made me nervous about that design.

They have removable doors, a heater, radio, lights, etc. http://www.raf2000.com/

js

[Phil MacTaggart]

MOL, thanks for the mention of the Futura. I sent them an email to get a better idea of price delivered over here, and have not heard back. Do you understand the price they list, 58,000, as being in euros?

Jeff, thanks for recommendation on RAF2000. Do I have it right that they can be modified to put the thrust line down to center? For purposes of cross-country, does the RAF2000 have stowage area? I am not interested in a passenger, but would like to get a 2 place with the 2nd place converted for extra gas and stowage, which might be a bit awkward for the side by side RAF2000, or am I way off on that? Thanks again for the comments.

[Texas Armadillo]

You'll have to ask the RAF people those questions for specific answers.

A lot of your questions are answered on their home page and the others are probably in their FAQ page.

Good Luck!
js

[GyroTyro]

Jeff, thanks for recommendation on RAF2000. Do I have it right that they can be modified to put the thrust line down to center? For purposes of cross-country, does the RAF2000 have stowage area? I am not interested in a passenger, but would like to get a 2 place with the 2nd place converted for extra gas and stowage, which might be a bit awkward for the side by side RAF2000, or am I way off on that? Thanks again for the comments.


RAF does have cannisters about 16-18 inches long and about 8 inches in diameter that would go on either side of the engine mount or if you are concerned about adding weight that high, they could be mounted on the keel just under the radiator(Don Parham has a source of fuel tanks about the same size). they could also be mounted under the cabin as extra fuel tanks and carry an extra 3-4 gallons of fuel per tank. However I think your kidneys would need relief long before you would run the normal fuel tank out of fuel(20 gal of fuel @ 5 gal per hr = piss call or wet pants). It is normal to put sandbags or ballast in the passengers seat to simulate a passenger during transition from dual occupancy to single occupancy. It would be within reason to strap in a hundred pounds plus of luggage in place of a passenger.

Changing the RAF to a CLT via the AIA route is drastic and very expensive. I think that Paul Bruty and several Aussie builders (Kiwi Bros for instance) have demonstrated that lowering the engine 6 inches, stepping the keel 6 inches and changing the AOA of the horizontal Stab (1 piece Horizontal Stab a MUST)is reasonable and will make the RAF a very stable gyro. We also have several RAFs in the US (some under construction) with basically the same configuration. Maybe they will pipe up and offer thier 2 cents. This seems to be the most reasonable and practical way to to make an affordable Cross country Gyro.

[_MOL_]

You are welcome Phil.

Yes, the price is in Euro’s. Quite expensive but you get your money worth. Though the price varies upon engine choice. 2 different engine options, Rotax 914 or SUB4.

When contacting AeroCopter – Europe, tell Carlos that you have talked with me Brian Sorensen, on this forum. That usually helps a lot.

The Futura can be delivered already as it is, but it is in a final stage of further development. This is because of most of the European country rules require an empty weight of no more than 275kg.

I think about 2 or 3 have been delivered already and 3 or 4 more is about to be delivered shortly.

All these I believe are delivered to European customers.

I’m not sure that there are any US distributors yet. Mostly it is because of the high price, but remember it is delivered fully assembled and test flown. For US customers there is the option to get it as a kit and I believe the price is in the € 35 to 40K area.

I first saw the Futura in the Friedrichsafen exhibition last year, and was stunned to see the size and quality of this bird. I have not seen any gyro like it before. Carlos (the designer/owner) became interested in the SUB4 engine I represented on the exhibition, mostly as an alternative engine choice to the Rotax 914 mainly due to many US gyro people dont like the Rotax, so we made up an agreement that he could try out my engine to see if he could use it.
I was in Spain last year to install the SUB4 engine in the Futura prototype (prototypes are usually heavier than production) and was going to test fly it too. Unfortunately the EFI computer to the SUB4 engine had a fault so I was forced to go home again to get a carburettor set instead of the EFI system, at least until the fault could be located.
Back to Spain I went, installed and adjusted the carburettors.
Then it was time to test fly the thing.

The taxi ride down the ruff dirt strip left the impression that it was floating on dead calm water. Soooo smooth. The test flight went over all expectations and I was very pleased with the result.

That’s a long story but all in all, I believe that this bird is for those people that want something no one else has, it’s that good. Very stable, lots of headroom, lots of space inside the cabin. Can even be delivered with fine Spanish leather inside the cabin.

As said – a long story.

If you get around Spain, it is the time worth to visit AeroCopter and get a test spin in this one.


Brian

[Mike Nelson]

Phil, I'm not quite sure why, but there is an identical thread running under "Swap Meet" "For Sale" "Cross Country Gyro Wanted" . You might check those posts as well for addtional comments. If you haven't already.

[Dean_Dolph]

Scott, it sounds like there was something seriously amiss on that Barnett and I doubt it is a design problem. There isn't a design around that we can't mess up while constructing and rigging!

One of the first gyros to fly coast to coast (years ago!) was a Barnett although I don't recall if it was a J4B2. The people in PRA Chapter 5, in particular Bob Aspegren, have experience with Barnetts so if any one is seriously interested then they should contact them. Bob's single place was a real jewel!

One of the most impressive J4B2s I've seen is one in Canada owned by Keith Weston. The last email address I have for him is a couple of years old. kcweston@sympatico.ca

[Friendly]

Tim what are HLA's

[barnstorm2]

Mark,

HLA's are Hydraulic Lash Adjusters.

[Mike Nelson]

John,

Just to set the record straight regarding your 10/17/04 post .... I have owned a J2 for several years and parts have not been hard to find and it is not underpowered. It would also be a fine aircraft for a new pilot with proper training and ratings. I suspect you heard those comments from someone who has never owned a J2, and fying in one on one flight does not an expert make either. Nothing personal, but I get a little defensive when I hear incorrect information about the J2. Yep, it's certified and some pilots prefer certified aircraft. The last annual cost me $920. but to me that is a worthwhile investment and one that helps give me and my family a little peice of mind. Please feel welcome to contact me anytime about the J2.

[darrellwittke]

Excuse my ignorance Mr. Nelson, but isn't it possible to use a J-2 (or any certified gyroplane) to get your FAA rotorcraft category-class gyroplane pilots license, and (after enough hours) all you need to get your helicopter class add-on is to be trained to competency and pass (and be signed off by CFI-helicopters) the flight test? Isn't this method half as expensive as training in helicopters from the beginning (ie. a helicopter license on the cheap?)

Just thought this might help is you are trying to sell you J-2, and I notice you've got an R-44, so I wonder if the above is true and also if it is how you acheived your rating.

[StanFoster]

Phil: Just to add to my enthusiasm for my RAF2000....I would highly recommend it for cross-country. I have a Parham stab....nice warm cabin...it flies very comfortably in all kinds of wind.

I never flew with ballast as I never had anyone in the right seat. The only thing I notice is the roll trim is just out of tension when flying solo.

When I considered buying one...the first thing that stood out was the RAF's for sale that had hundreds of hours on them. These machines were being flown as much as anyones...and there are more of them out there. Another plus....people are people...and there are many unfinished RAF kits out there from people losing focus....changing interests etc. Thats how I found mine.

I bought one unfinished with a little reluctance due to all the anti-RAF hype....but I followed my gut feeling and consulted several high time RAF pilots. I was assured I would do just fine...the general consensus was to have a stab. I have over 130 hours and several cross country flights since my airworthiness certificate was issued in Feb. My only regret is that I didnt buy one sooner. I just wish I knew one year ago while I was finishing my RAF....how much I would like it. I would have been ecstatic working on it.

If you get one with the later style fuel tank...the seat back tilts forward and there is quite a bit of room for stowing stuff.

If and when I wear mine out....an upgrade to a Sparrowhawk is a possibility..but I would have absolutely no problem replacing my RAF2000 with another one just like it.....no problem at all. :D

Stan

[birdy]

Stan ,mate,that later tank you mentioned,
is it more comfortable?
how much capacity?
Will it slot in where me old one sits without too many mods?

If yes to all three,then where do I get one from??

[StanFoster]

Birdy: The tank holds 22 gallons. It should go in without much trouble. I cant say if its more comfortable because I havent tried the older style. I do need to put different foam in mine .

Stan

[Aussie_Paul]

...sits on the floor and lowers the CoM!!! It is also more uncomfortable than the one you and I have. The control system has to be changed as does the conventional throttle assembly. I flew in one yesterday and it bought home to me again how uncomfortable the later seat tank was.

However, it does give the ability to carry some "jocks and sox" etc, as Stan pointed out. :D

I enjoyed the flight as it also brought home to me how far I am ahead with Hybrid in the stability area. I did not enjoy the lesser stability now that I have become so used great stability. To think that I was once happy with that!!!! :eek: If I had not flown hybrid I would have said that this Raf was ok. This Raf has an effective stab and the Raf stabiliator, and is the best built Raf kit that I have ever seen, around the world. ;)

To sum it up. This magnificent Raf 2000 flew like a heap of s**t, and then I went training in Hybrid which looks like a heap of s**t and flys magnificently!!!! :D Talk about ckalks and cheeses!!!!!! :eek: Which would you prefere? Both is my answer!!!!! But I am not that good at building.

This Raf owner is going to build my personal Firebird for me to use at airshows and promotions. I think that I will only be allowed to fly it and then be escorted away before I mark it!!!!! :D
I will attach a couple of pics of this Raf G-600, it is fitted with a SOHC ej-25.

These are earlier pics. I will have take some with the stabiliator on.

Aussie Paul. :)

[birdy]

Gees,if the new seats are worse than the old ones[mine] then they must be bloody uncomfortable.

[Mike Nelson]

Darrell,

Actually I already had my Commercial Helicopter Rating when I went to Mentone to the PRA Convention and flew for an hour with Jim Logan as dual instruction and checkride prep, then I flew with an FAA DE for another hour and was signed-off with my Commercial Gyroplane Rating. In addtion, I had flown several hours in my single seat 503 Air Command prior to obtaining the add-on rating. Yes it could be done the other way around but helicopters are much more complicated and I would suspect an good rated gyro pilot would still need a minimum 25 hours of helicopter time in prep for the gyro to Heli rating. And, yes it would be cheaper.

Sorry for the delayed reply,

Mike Nelson

[alain]

Hello everyone - late answer, I guess... Just found this forum.

Sorry that you did not get a reply... people at the factory are pretty busy getting the aircrafts made...(lame excuse, I agree).

If you wish more information, please connect to www.ulmeurope.com, and select the Futura tab. The manufacturer's website is not really up to date.

You'll find here the up to date general infos, and I'll answer should you have questions. I am as well the owner of the metallic red demonstrator, and the distributor for a number of European countries.

Many things have changed since Brian was at the factory.

Have a nice day

Alain Lederer
ulm@ulmeurope.com
www.ulmeurope.com

[ventana7]

Phil,
I flew about 10,000 miles of cross country last year in an AAI modified RAF. If you are not interested in a 63K Sparrowhawk I would highly recommend the modified RAF. You will have a stable safe machine and while the cabin is a bit smaller it does have some advantages over the Sparrowhawk. Using the right seat will give you plenty of room for luggage.
I would suggest the fuel injected 2.5L subaru would be better than the carb version as it gets better mileage for longer cross country legs and the 2.5 will have power for some of the higher altitudes you will enounter in Mexico.
If you have any specific questions feel free to send a private msg thru the forum.