Cross-Country Gyro Wanted - Recommendations?

[Phil MacTaggart]

New to Gyros, but I have been up in a Dominator, and have about 11 hours of recent ultralight fixed wing instruction. My only other air experience has been 18 skydives.

I would highly appreciate advice. I intend to obligate funds for purchase and training mid-November and have to make decisions on what to buy and how to get the right training between now and then.

Can I beat buying a Barnett J4B2 factory assembled with back seat used for extra gas and storage?

I am also thinking about a McCullock J-2 (Ground resonance not withstanding). I am not interested in having a passenger, but am interested in range and speed and safety. The OUTCONUS models are very interesting, but seem high priced for what you get and training seems improbable.

For safety purposes and the general logic of its design, I have contemplated a tractor, but I found the LittleWing has to be put together yourself. (I just did early retirement, and would prefer to put time and energy into flying versus manufacturing; if I come up with a reliable enough machine, I intend to tour Mexico, where I have spent a number of years).

I am also strongly considering a modified Pitbull, and am waiting on a proposal from Rotowerks.

I would like to take instruction for a gyro sports pilot license to be completed by the time the machine I purchase is completed by the manufacturer, and preferrably in a machine similar to the one I'm buying.

My email is taggart@mchsi.com, address 21 Hickory Hills, Geneseo, IL 61254, phone 309-441-5103, fax 309-213-2415. Any and all advice will be very much appreciated by any of these means. Thanks.

[Screw]

Screw-In

From what I've heard about the Barnett J4B2, they are a handfull. My Instructor Steve McGowan didn't like flying the one hangered at Macon, and the guy that owns it has yet to solo it. He is Scared to death of it. I do not reccomend this Gyro to anyone.

McCullock J-2 is on the underpowered side and because it is a certified aircraft, the up keep has to be maintained by an appropriately rated A&P and parts are very hard to find since no one makes them anymore. I do not reccomd this gyro as a gyro for a beginner iether.

The Little Wing is an excellent gyro currently holding altitude and distance records. As you say, you have to build it.

Ernie Boyette does make a hell of a gyro in the Dominator series. A nice two place should make a nice affordable cross county machine with a semi open cockpit. He will build your gyro for you however you want it with engine of your choice. So long as the engine is a Subaru or Rotax. Here is his website:
http://www.rotorflightdynamicsinc.com/

Groen Brothers Aviation has one of the nicest gyros on the market. Enclosed two place with Centerine Thrust with excelent performance. Here is there website and some goos pages from the website:
http://www.gbagyros.com/
http://www.americanautogyro.com/
http://www.americanautogyro.com/APV/APV_Main.htm

That last page is a complete Cross Country Ready Turn Key Machine for less than 63k.

Which machine is best is a question only you can answer for yourself with whatever mission you have in mind.

Screw-Out

[darrellwittke]

Sir, do you have any preferences towards a fully enclosed cabin or are you comfortable with a partial windscreen ala dominator?

Also, do you have a preference for four stroke engines or do you have the resources for good maintenance of a two stroke engine?

This will narrow the field considerably. I suggest, in all sincerity, that you really concentrate on the type of flying you anticipate, post it, and the folks here will be more than happy to share their opinion with you :) .

A little bit of research on your part here and at manufacturers websites will start narrowing your choices. Welcome to the wonderful world of gyroplanes, one of the safest forms of aviation!

[Phil MacTaggart]

Thanks for suggestions, Darrell.

I would like a fully enclosed, heated, cabin for winter use up her in the Mid-west. I also intend to take it to various spots in Mexico, if I can come up with a machine that is reliable enough and has sufficient range to make that feasible. That's why I'm considering a 2 seat tandem, modified to make the back seat a luggage area.

I also posted the first comment (thread) above on the Wanted site, where there ensued a helpful discussion of engines. From you comments, am I to correctly understand that if you can afford it, a two stroke engine would be better? I would very much like to be informed if that is the case and why. Thanks, Phil.

[darrellwittke]

No, I am sorry for the misunderstanding. My position is, if you can afford it, the best engines are those designed for the purpose envisioned, ie. certified aircraft powerplants like Lycoming or Rotax 912/914.

Two strokes are the cheaper alternative, with the caveat that in order for you to have good reliability you must have good maintenance. So if you wish to lower your costs you can invest in a two stroke and in maintenance manuals, time and effort.

Rotax engines are adapted from snowmobiles to power aircraft. They have a few changes versus snowmobiles of which the only one I recall is they have smaller needle bearings. Chuck B. pointed out this helps them lubricate when they are held at high and constant power settings (as in aircraft versus more variability in snowmobiles.) Numbers are perhaps $2000 used to $6500-7000 for new. You will find certified aircraft engines much much higher if you are not already aware.

Anyhow, In my humble opinion, I suggest you go with a little wing to fit your cross country needs. A proven performer for long flights, enclosed comfort and I suspect the resale value would be higher should you ever wish to part with it, mostly because it's unique and different and not too many of them yet.

Ron Herron appears to be a very class act and has been a gyro enthusiast for a long time, I am sure he could answer any questions you have if you wish to pursue my suggestion. Again, thanks for your interest in gyro's. darrellwittke

[Mike Nelson]

Phil,

Been there, done that. I would stongly suggest that you fly before you buy. Talk and plans are cheap and there are a lot of folks with some good stories, but I'll stick with the fly before you buy recommendation. I have a McCulloch J2 (factory built with a nice Lycoming 180hp engine) that I would be happy to demo to you anytime. My personal experiance with the J2 (1996 to 2004) has been very good. I get a true 95mph cruise @ 7.5 gallons per hour. My last annual on 9/3/04 was $950. and was completed by Midwest Corp Aviation here in Wichita. It is very relaiable, stable in rough air and comfortable. I have flown as far as south as Dallas and as far north as Chicago. Again, I think you will get a lot of comments from folks that have never owned a J2, thus I remain committed to fly before you buy. Dig deep and ask a lot of questions. email me at executivehelicopters@pixius.net and I will send you photos and specs. Good luck, and keep in mind that you may not find a perfect combination of everything you want (including price) in any gyroplane.

Mike

[PW_Plack]

If you plan to fly lots of hours, a four-stroke Rotax 912 may be cheaper than a two-stroke Rotax 582. Over the first thousand hours, you'll save a thousand gallons of gasoline, lots of two-stroke oil, and at least $3K in overhaul costs. (Assuming you can even keep overhauling a 582 to 1000 hours, which may be a stretch.)

[Doug Riley]

In my experience, homebuilt aircraft very, very rarely turn out to be acceptable travelling machines. You really need a heavily-built craft with "set it and forget it" reliability. Almost all homebuilts emphasize performance, portability and low cost over absolute reliability (that's what sells). This dictates that they be rather lightly built and that they incorporate compromises to reliability such as 2-stroke or junkyard car engines, gokart brakes, uncertified instruments, belt-driven props, plastic fuel system parts and so on. These are reasonable compromises if your mission is casual, local fun flying or ripping it up at flyins. They're the wrong compromises if you want to pound out the miles without having to tinker/walk back/cancel your trip.

Also keep in mind that component life typically isn't established for homebuilts. You have to watch them carefully and continually, doing extremely thorough pre- and post-flights as well as maintenance sessions -- all with a view to catching those random parts failures before they interrupt your flight. These frequent inspections will quite often reveal things that must be repaired or replaced. I find I have to fix something at least every 3-5 flight hours. For many people, this constant tinkering is part of the fun.

I'd buy a certified machine if you want safe, no-hassle travel. The enterprise won't be cheap, though.

[hcaliste]

Mr. Riley, could you clarify your statement a bit concerning homebuilts as good travelling aircraft? I'm not looking for a manufacturer by manufacturer opinion, but when you said 'certified', are you saying primarily GA fixed wing? Or would you include a certified gyro such as a McCulloch J2? Or something else? And as a general question to the group, at what distance would you say to yourself 'I'm travelling x many miles today so I'll take the cessna instead of the sparrowhawk?'

Just curious,
Herbert

[Doug Riley]

By "certified" I really mean just the J2. The Air & Space 18A has some serious instabilities that SHOULD have been caught in the certification process, but weren't.

I would use a stable homebuilt gyro -- such as my own tandem Dominator or a Sparrowhawk -- for a trip in nice weather IF the trip was really an excuse to go flying. This would include a X-C flight to a flyin, to set a record or just enjoy the adventure of it all.

If some non-aviation destination was the focus (family wedding, non-aviation vacation, business), I wouldn't go in any homebuilt.

If it involved night flying or the need to operate in instrument weather, I wouldn't go in a single-engine certified craft, either. (Our more courageous members will snicker at this cowardly attitude, but the statistics aren't encouraging.)

The Sparrowhawk may eventually turn out to be that rare exception to this rule, and become the "new J2." That would involve a huge, sustained effort on AAI's part, though. Until then, it's simply a rather new but apparently top-of-the line homebuilt gyro.

[quadrirotor]

If you want to drive+fly+drive and back... :p Of couse you put the minicar in your Skyvan!... ;)

[Victor Duarte]

hey andre, it recalls me the EXPLORER, built by Hubert de Chevigny and dean willson
http://www.voulgaropoulos.com/FR/NEW/EXPLORER/explorer.html

a marvelous aircraft, amphibian, suitable for 5 or 6 persons to sleep in, a terace on the top of the centran wings, large windows, a transparent window to look under water, the side floaters used like diving platforms.

a flying motor home,
funny i kept the "mondial kitplanes catalog" in 95 i think wher this airplane was listed in the kits for about 100 000 $ !!!!

i seached the web other day but no news.. seems dead, a shame
i still think this airpane could be copied and scaled down for 2 or 3 persons as ultra light, the real freedom !!!

cheers

[quadrirotor]

Yes Zeeoo but you can't drive unless you rent a car...
But, in France, i have seen a homebuilt version of the concept Skyvan+minicar, but i can'y find the réf.
Of course the Skyvan was smaller, and the minicar not so mush smaller than the Smart!

If you want to dream!
http://www.haynes-aero.com/Netscape/frames.html
check the video!
very sexy but improbable! :D

[Victor Duarte]

yes andre, very improbable !! but design can sometimes spit out working concepts ;)

yes i remember i saw what you said, a kind of hull over a car isnt it ? like a garage..
another improbable idea.

but the idea of a ultralight flying motor home, is serious, i ve been drawing a lot about it, take the skyvan design, shape a hull under it and ..lift offf !

but let's stop with FW , lol, and let the thread go on a x country gyro
what about cartercopters ?

thanks and sorry for this excursion in our dreams ;)

[quadrirotor]

That's the Barnett, with a certified engine. :)

[quadrirotor]

Zeeoo, What you've been speaking of:!
http://www.roadabletimes.com

[quadrirotor]

Zeeoo, the mini explorer, here not so far from my home!
http://www3.sympatico.ca/norman.aviation/nouveautesfr.htm

[LARRYEBOYER]

Aussie Paul proved that the RAF is a suitable cross country machine. Please correct me if I am wrong but earlier this year he flew over 2000 miles on a trip across Aussie land.he has modified the RAF to have a better CLT, but the basic machine is there.It holds 23 gal of gas and most have a reliable Subaru engine. If you want certified, buy a RAF kit without the engine. I did. Put your own engine on it. I know where there is a 0290 Lycoming with low hours that would be en excellent gyro engine.

[Phil MacTaggart]

Is there any thrust-line problem with the Barnet J4B2 tandem? I can't get any pics to come up at www.barnettrotorcraft.com. Thanks.

[darrellwittke]

Don't know about the thrust line. Just wanted to add my two cents concerning training.

Please don't put the horse before the cart and buy or build a machine before you have training, as I and many others have done!

If you spend your money on training first, you will get a feel for what gyro flight is like and have an even better idea of what you want to have as your gyroplane.

You have to spend money on training anyways, it is more efficient to get it first, be around people with experience and knowledge of gyroplanes, absorb their knowledge (for good or bad! :) ) and make a more informed choice of what to budget for and buy farther down the road.

I noticed a post commenting how many gyro pilots have their own machines before starting flying and wanted to make sure you are aware of the advantages of getting gyro training before buying (or planning even.)

My two cents, for what it's worth (nothing...it's free! :) ) Thanks.

[RHerron]

There was a comment in an earlier post about ground resonance in a J-2.

Not likely. I have had the blade dampers get out of whack and generate some churning but I have never experienced or heard of a J-2 entering serious ground resonance. The rotor system is about as "proven" as a rotorcraft can get.

I have flown the J-2 in all kinds of weather, at night and on long trips. It is a real-deal aircraft.

I ditto Mike Nelson's experience on airspeed...between 90-95 at max. gross.
I can't ditto the fuel burn however. I have kept up with it pretty close on long trips and it averages about 9 gph leaned out. Of course, this is with two people onboard and full baggage. (I have carried a 1970 Buick radiator in the baggage compartment if that gives you some idea of its size)

[birdy]

Phil,except for the uncomfortable seat after 2/3 hours of sitting still,I have no problem traveling for up to 5 hours nonstop in my 914 powered RAF[with a few other mods].Thats around 500km on a tank,and the best thing bout gyros is you don't have to wait for good wether.Anywere anytime.

[Mike Nelson]

Thanks for the J2 comments Ron! It's always nice to have J2 comments made by someone who has actually owned and flown several hours in a well maintained J2. I recently read an article in a prestigious international aviation magazine in which the "expert" author wrote about the J2. Amoung some of his most serious inaccuracies were that the J-2 did not have a baggage compartment, that it had 2 collective controls, that it had a rotor brake and that it was not certified for night VFR. I obviously wrote the guy a letter to call his attention to all the WRONG information in his report, but I am sure that he and the magazine were too embarrased to make the corrections.

It is true that I get around 7.5 gph fuel burn, but I would also explain that this includes the time the hobbs meter begins at engine start, a really long taxi to the runway, flying at 2350 rpm, solo, mixture leaned, and a long taxi back to the hangar. I have no doubt that I burn close to 9gph at gross weight, 2450rpm and the flight timed from actual take-off to actual touch-down.

I also agree with your ground resonance statement. I have never heard of one in a J2, I had also flown and owned a Hughes 300C helicopter with the same rotor system and never had any problems. I did hear of a few cases where the oleo struts were not properly extended and/or a hard landing caused ground resonance in a Hughes helicopter.

Again, thanks for you comments and support of the J2.

[Mike Nelson]

Phil, I talked to Jerrie (really nice guy) several times about the J4B2 about a year ago. Like you, I had a friend that was wanting to explore some options for enclosed two-place Gyros. I tried like crazy to get an email address and phone number of someone in the states that is currently flying a J4B2. Jerrie gave me 2 contacts and I was able to track down 1 that I actually got a hold of, and he had bought his used from someone else and was having some modifications done to it and had not yet flown the Gyro. I am really amazed how hard some Gyro manufactures make it for potential buyers to find their happy and satisfied customers. I find it hard to believe that it's a privacy issue, I guess rightly or wrongly I am inclined to think that there just are very few happy, flying owner/pilots with certain models. Too bad, as there are some rather intersting models out there and some are bound to be very good machines.

[Jerseywing]

Andre
Now the Skyblazer is the ticket- someone tailgates you in traffic you open the jet outlet and peel their paint ... Perfect for the NYC metro area!!!
Takes the phrase road rage to another level

Mike

[Dean_Dolph]

Actually, Mike, there are very few completed machines of several interesting designs/models. They are not marketed heavily, if at all and tend to be concentrated in the area where they were designed. The Barnett machines are a perfect example. Most of these manufacturers (if that is what we want to call them!) are back yard outfits without a marketing budget. I suspect they get into the business because after designing and building their personal machine; people started bugging them for one. I doubt if getting into the business was their original intent.

Jerrie has advertised thru the PRA magazine for years (say, in the neighbor hood of 20 - 30!) and may be some where else but if so I'm not aware of it. He also has designed/manufactured an interesting redrive that has not got much publicity or even use as far as I know.

[Brent_Brown]

In a PRA mag I read soom time ago, a guy flew one west to east. Ca. to NC. then on home up north. It must fly for some and not for others??
Steve McGowan can you tell us what you think is going on with the J4B2s.

[Paul Salmon, MD]

Have you thought about a Magni? The only downside is the cost, but you get what you pay for!! They are an open cockpit design, so weather can be a bit of a challenge. I have flown mine on trips of 1000 nm + and have never had any problems.

Paul

[amphib]

The guy who built my Magni M14 flew it from the East Coast to Santa Fe, NM when he moved there.

[Brent_Brown]

You also don't get what you can't pay for. No Magni

[dragonflyerthom]

You also don't get what you can't pay for. No Magni

I like it Brent

[MrGrey]

What about a Xenon? Check them out! Everything I have heard from our resident rotor enthusiast Tom Milton, points to one good machine that packs the punch of a magni but gives you much more, like a heated cabin. Leather heated seats are an option too! Sounds like a great machine on the way to the US. I think it will be down at Bensen Days and might be worth your trip.

[ventana7]

Yes we plan to have a xenon at both bensen days and Sun n Fun.

[Brent_Brown]

It to packs a Magni price and same all or nothing deal.

[dragonflyerthom]

ROB

YOU have flown the RAF how does it compare to the Xenon?

[ventana7]

Thom,

Not even in the same ballpark. The Xenon cabin is huge- 2 really big guys won't even rub shoulders. Xenon is totally stable Raf is not.
Xenon is really high tech. Like comparing a Cirrus to a aeronca champ.
Xenon has an ASTM certified aircraft engine --A $ 15,000 aircraft engine vs an engine from a junkyard. The Xenon cabin is a structural cabin that will protect the occupant- The RAF and SH are just a fiberglass shell.
I could go on but you get the idea.

Rob

Rob

[Harry_S.]

Hi Rob;

Any plans on flying the Xenon on a fortyeight state trip like you did with the RAF...or maybe even go one better and make it the fortyNINE state contiguous fly?! ;)

I'd like that.


Cheers :)

[ventana7]

Harry,

Flying a gyro up to Alaska is deffinately on my to do list. And the Xenon is the one to do it in.
Something to plan for in the next few years.

Rob

[gyroplanes]

Harry,

Flying a gyro up to Alaska is deffinately on my to do list. And the Xenon is the one to do it in.
Something to plan for in the next few years.

Rob

Why not make it 50 states? I'll bet you can find Hawaii, you may have already found it by boat once or twice.

p.s. don't be too hard on the RAF, you might be taken for a salesman.

Hey, it's Saturday.... have you seen the Xenon yet?

[ventana7]

I have a good friend who has flown twice around the world in a single engine Maule - with no autopilot. His Hawaii to Santa Barbara leg was around 25 hours!!

Not sure I am ready for that. But Dick Smith who owns Australia's equiv of Radio Shack flew a Jet Ranger around and landed for fuel on a Japaneese Freighter in mid Pacific-- now there's an idea!

[StanFoster]

Phil: There are a few gyrocopters that come to mind that make good cross country machines......The Magni...RAF...Xenon.....and what I chose to build and fly....a SparrowHawk.

Every persons needs are different...but for myself...I wanted a heated cabin...a big cabin....and something that can can outfly my limited piloting skills.

I thought long and hard before I ordered my SparrowHawk kit from Terry Eiland....and have never regretted it one second. The more I fly it...the easier I realize how little a pilot load it gives me on cross country flights.

I was slow to start on my cross countries like anyone should be until the confidence in my flying abilities and more importantly the dependability of what I was flying. I have made many cross country flights....and after several were under my belt....I started using my SparrowHawk much more for my stair business. I have met potential clients at airports to be taken to their jobsite to look at their stair project. Its kind of humerous...most of the interest was in the gyrocopter I flew in with...rather than what I flew in for. Iam batting 100% so far on landing curved stairways or straight stairways by meeting the potential clients in this manner.

I am sure you have noticed my commuting to work thread where I have posted just a few of my almost daily commutes to Chicago. I depended on my machine to get me there and back....and with careful preventive maintenance which is rather enjoyable....I always had piece of mind that my mission would be complete and successful. I save 3 hours commute time each trip and this alone has moved my stair projects way ahead of schedule.

I would have saved even more time except I have this strong tendency to keep looking out the window at my "escape" machine sitting there waiting to give me another enjoyable and viable fast route home.

I started calling my SparrowHawk my SparrowTruck as I would load the cabin up with what I could get in it and deliver to the jobsite.

If I had to do it all over again....I would order another SparrowHawk...the only difference being the new SparrowHawk 11's have several nice improvements over the SparrowHawk 1 that I fly.

Just my two cents......


Stan

[CLS447]

Stan, what is the overall height of the Sparrowhawk?

I just checked the Xenon & was suprised to see that it is 9' 2" tall !!

I want to get an enclosed trailer for my SxS AC , & at 8'6" it is a real chore finding something for it. I am sure that I will have to modify one.

The RAF folding mast sure is a winner when it come to getting a trailer to put it in !

[StanFoster]

Chris: The very top of my towers are around 9 ft. 7.5 inches...

Stan

[dragonflyerthom]

QUOTE STAN///Phil: There are a few gyrocopters that come to mind that make good cross country machines......The Magni...RAF...Xenon.....and what I chose to build and fly....a SparrowHawk.

Every persons needs are different...but for myself...I wanted a heated cabin...a big cabin....and something that can can outfly my limited piloting skills.
QUOTE

I also wanted a cross country machine. I was looking at price range that i could afford. at the time i had not seen either RAF OR SPAROWHAWK. The
RAF was right in my range. It was in the build that I found out about the high thrust line. then ifound out about the drop keel mod which ican do and it will stabilize my machine considerably. i actually like the cozyness of my RAF. It reminds me of strapping my gyro on then flying. even without themod it feels solid as arock with the LM H/S.