Straight down?

[gilgsn]

Hello,

I am new at this, so please bear with me.. There is one maneuver I saw on video that I would like to understand better. Not that I want to try it.. I flew on a gyro only once as a passenger, and I have just received my first 2x2 tubing along with a few parts.. I just would like to learn about the gyro operating envelope, what is normal, and what is "pushing it."

How can a gyro descend seemingly nose pointed straight down while maintaining rotor RPMs in a safe zone? What would be an average safe glide path power off, going straight or spiraling down?

Do gyro pilots use side-slips like with fixed-wing aircrafts. Would there be any advantage to that to steepen an approach, or would the difference in drag be insignificant? I guess a vertical descent could be used..

What is the best way to go down fast safely?

Thank you very much :-)

Gil.

[GyroRon]

Your talking about a manuver John Stevens coined the " Death Spiral ".... I am renaming it the " Twist and Shout "

The nose of the gyro is straight down, but the gyro is also in a turn, hence the spiral decent. The rotors stay well loaded, but it is a advanced manuver only for very experienced pilots to try.

[RotoPlane]

I wondered that too Gil...but then I noticed a video made a few month ago that Ron was in a spiral....very much like a horizonal barrel roll...only tipped down vertical. It looks so cool.....

[GyroRon]

very much like a horizonal barrel roll...only tipped down vertical......

Thats pretty much what it is.

[gilgsn]

Thanks for the explanation! I'm old enough to NOT try something called the "Death Spiral," LOL! So, is the stick held all the way back?

Gil.

[animal]

Thanks for the explanation! I'm old enough to NOT try something called the "Death Spiral," LOL! So, is the stick held all the way back?

Gil. Gil,when I rode thru it, the nose never came up,so I don't know about back stick, it starts from level flight at high speed and happens fast. not sure of the control inputs, but the only time the nose was pulled up was the recovery.

it is a wild ride for sure. it is a positive G maneuver all the way thru.

[Lee Scatt]

Hi Gil, I think you are thinking of a FW spin. The wing is stalled, "stick held all the way back", and rudder is kicked in to make the plane spin.
The rotor will fly at any angle as long as it is loaded at the hub.
The spiral keeps the rotor loaded while it seemingly falls straight down.

[WaspAir]

Do gyro pilots use side-slips like with fixed-wing aircrafts. Would there be any advantage to that to steepen an approach, or would the difference in drag be insignificant? I guess a vertical descent could be used..

What is the best way to go down fast safely?

Fixed wing pilots sometimes use slips to increase drag and produce a higher descent rate, because their structures are designed to produce low drag at high speeds and their natural glide path in coordinated flight is relatively flat.

In a gyro, getting down is very rarely much of a problem. Autorotation is a high-drag way of making lift and the structures on most gyros are not exactly wind tunnel champions. With power off, they come down quite nicely, and from my perspective as both a glider and gyro CFI, like bricks. The glide angle, for anybody who is used to sailplanes, is outrageously steep, and can be made vertical if desired.

I've struggled to climb in high density altitude conditions in a gyro. I've even struggled to get down in a high performance sailplane when emerging cu-nimbs were sucking me upward despite full spoilers and yellow-arc speeds. But I've never had to struggle to get down in a gyro. They descend really, really well.

[choppergabor]

Your talking about a manuver John Stevens coined the " Death Spiral ".... I am renaming it the " Twist and Shout "

I wonder what the inspiration was for the name change.....???? ROFL

[All_In]

Death Spiral is a dramatic name for what is essentially a horizontal barrel roll with gravity working for you. Ron is more than just a good pilot. He is a born promoter of all the sports he loves.
When I heard the name change, I was impressed by it as much as Ron’s flying as we are all trying to change our public image. The new name expresses the joy of rotorcraft flight without the whole Death thing.

[helipaddy]

Gil,when I rode thru it, the nose never came up,so I don't know about back stick, it starts from level flight at high speed and happens fast. not sure of the control inputs, but the only time the nose was pulled up was the recovery.

it is a wild ride for sure. it is a positive G maneuver all the way thru.

Entry speed is fairly low 20mph-ish, makes it much easier. rrpm is good and high which means the rotor is nice and happy. its fairly straightforward, but its no hangover cure!

[gilgsn]

Very informative, thanks everyone!

Gil.

[GyroRon]

If you watch this, you can see at about 5:20 mark I go into the " Twist and Shout " straight down manuver. You can hear the blades load up and increase in speed.

Before the TS manuver I was in a vertical decent and did a rudder spin holding the nose level with the horizon, kinda like a gyro version of a flat spin....

I will put out this warning, when I first started doing this manuver ( the Death Spiral ) some of the old timers were saying it was a dangerous manuver. When pressed for why it was dangerous, I never got a knowledgeable anwser, but they still claimed it is dangerous. So try em at your own risk..... I can say that in my two place I have full right rudder, and I go HARD to the right on the cyclic, so hard that I have to use both hands, so if nothing else it certainly puts a load on the control system.

YouTube - Ron Awad flying his Dominator gyroplane at Bensen Days 2010 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFSUde4HSVk)

[RotoPlane]

This is the one that gets me wondering how the blades stay on ;).
YouTube - Wrens 2008 -- Ron Awad U-Turn Landing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YUHUAkXU48&feature=related)

[choppergabor]

Wow most excellent flying. Damn!

[GyroRon]

This is the one that gets me wondering how the blades stay on ;).
YouTube - Wrens 2008 -- Ron Awad U-Turn Landing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YUHUAkXU48&feature=related)

Hell if I know..... Just was flying downwind at about 90 mph indicated and chop power and bank her around real hard, loads up the rotors nicely for a gentle touchdown. If I remember right, Scott Lewis and Ernie Boyette were saying I couldn't do this, and Scott radio'ed me while I was flying to ask me to try it. Took a few attempts to get a feel for how fast I needed to enter it and how hard to bank it over but as you can see, it was no problem

[animal]

what I have always wondered about is how many G's the blades and hub bar are designed to take.

would be interesting to have a G meter on the Gyro and see how many Ron pulls in some of his flights.

the U turn just demos trading airspeed for rotor energy.load the rotors and get more blade r.p.m. and lift.
very impressive demo for sure. Ron is truely the master of his machine.

[RotoPlane]

Hell if you know? Hell if you Knowww? Did it occur to you Ron….for even just a second....that just perhaps, maybe, they were angry with you that day? ;).

[All_In]

Hell if you know? Hell if you Knowww? Did it occur to you Ron….for even just a second....that just perhaps, maybe, they were angry with you that day? ;).

Now that's funny!!

[Lee Scatt]

what I have always wondered about is how many G's the blades and hub bar are designed to take.

would be interesting to have a G meter on the Gyro and see how many Ron pulls in some of his flights.

the U turn just demos trading airspeed for rotor energy.load the rotors and get more blade r.p.m. and lift.
very impressive demo for sure. Ron is truely the master of his machine.

Just by my seat of the pants meter, I've never pulled 2 g's in a gyro, and I have done high speed u-turns, 90-degree banks wide open throttle, maneuvers that in a FW would have you pinned to your seat, grunting.
I think the rotors just slip thru, limiting g forces.
I think there are more destructive forces in play just flying straight and level.
The beating they take as they rotate is enough to keep me wondering how they stay together.

[brett s]

That U-turn landing is how we'd usually do them in helicopter ag work when coming in for another load - easy way to bleed speed off & make a quick landing. Time is money, no long slow approaches - cruise speed until the 180 degree turn into the wind right at the truck...

We'd start slower than Ron was going though, Vne with spray booms installed was only 70 kts :)

[NoWingsAttached]

Can ask a dumb question now? With power off, will the gyro bunt over with the stick against the forward stop? OR does it just descend steeply? Reason I ask is that on my gyros, the rotor disk AOA is never negative at full fwd stop. Which means it can't bunt over unless power is applied?

[GyroRon]

Can ask a dumb question now? With power off, will the gyro bunt over with the stick against the forward stop? OR does it just descend steeply? Reason I ask is that on my gyros, the rotor disk AOA is never negative at full fwd stop. Which means it can't bunt over unless power is applied?

I don't think it would bunt over, but you could rapidly slow the rotor rpms down by doing that. You could get the RRPM so slow that you could flap the blades in flight when you " Reload " them by pulling the stick back. This would not be good....

[Resasi]

Nicely done Ron. Pretty to watch.