Training and gyro inherent safety, or not.

[gilgsn]

Hello,

I have been reading a lot about gyro safety and training here, and learned a lot. The more I read, the more it seems like I hear two different stories about gyro safety. On one side, gyros are inherently safe and easy to fly with proper training. However, reading threads like this one (http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23461); quote: "how fast these machines can and will bite you." I wonder...

I am not posting my concern here for the sake of arguing, but I am just starting building a Hornet, and it worries me when I get a glimpse or hints of some unspoken safety issues regarding gyros. So, I am just hoping for some light on this.

The thread I mentioned above turned into a "self-training" discussion.. I understand the temptation for people who already fly. I have a few hundred hours of three-axis ultralight flying, and I can't say I haven't thought about approaching the issue by myself, slowly. That said, I know better, and will get dual instruction. It would be stupid not doing so when I live only an hour from Wauchulla..

I have read extensively about stability, horizontal stabilisers, CLT, drop keels, etc..

My question is, aside from training and the stability of pusher gyros, now presumably highly improved, how can these machines "bite you?"
Are the concerns I hear about reminiscent of what was going on in the 80s, or are there still some unresolved issues with the latest designs?
In your opinion, is flying a gyro as safe as flying an ultralight, given proper training and aircraft maintenance?

Thank you very much.

Gil.

[brett s]

Get proper training & fly a stable, well-built & maintained gyro - probably the safest thing in the air.

Don't get training, fly an unstable high thrustline design, or don't build/maintain it properly - it can absolutely kill you.

Even a modern stable & well designed gyro can be balled up by pilot error - just like people crash cars every day, nothing is idiot-proof.

So don't be the idiot - choose a safe design, get training (and by that I don't mean just to solo either), and build it right. Sounds like you're on the right track :)

[choppergabor]

Gil you got it right. Not only do people with flying experience think they can fly it, unfortunately people with no flying experience think the same way. I am guilty as charged myself. I thought I could fly this thing with 1600 hours of helicopter time and 1300 of those were the kind when strangers try to kill you on the daily basis. So I thought I can do this. OK I did. But. I wish there was something out there Besides the 2000 years old Bensen manual to give guidance for the semi suicidal. Like "Manual for the Ones". On the other hand I can completely understand the trying to get training and not being able aspect of it! No question in my mind the level of NOT WANTING to teach, as if it were a favor rather than a business attitude is just simply making one nauseous. So if one gets sick and tired of being bumped after driving for hours cause the CFI happened to have either a headache and didn't bother to call ahead to cancel, or for unknown and unforeseen reason can't fly. It is painful sometimes and downright disgusting how this is done in certain areas. You happened to be lucky to be in the Mecca of Gyros. So looking at one's action you refer to I do have to have some sympathy too knowing the circumstances. When I am done with my new build I will go and do dual time this time around. A good friend told me this once. When a cheaply built gyro meets a non competent pilot it spells disaster. Well I am attempting to build a rather good gyro so the pilot better be competent! And even than $hit can happen :)
PS: Red you bastard :) I challenge to put your experiences into words and help your fellow wannabes! Tell them at least what you did and how you did it, and what you had learned from it...... fair?

[WaspAir]

There are also ways for the machine to "bite you" that arise from the way they are amateur designed and built, typically without full engineering analysis or testing, and from the non-aviation engines people choose to use. Read lots of posts and you will find discussion that things break, bits fall off, and engines quit. It's not quite like assembling an RV-7 with a Lycoming; there is more experimentation in gyros than in some other experimental aircraft, and not all experiments are always successful. Often these are survivable incidents, but you'll hear more "the ______ on my ________ broke so I landed in a field" stories here.

[C. Beaty]

By evolving a design and construction method so simple that anyone can imagine himself to be a gyroplane designer, Igor Bensen sowed the seeds for the gyroplane’s demise.

Square aluminum tubing with bolt holes tangent to the faces so as not to require internal spacers, although not the best structurally, allowed anyone to do it.

The first tilt head cyclic control system to successfully incorporate an underslung seesaw rotor is the ultimate simplification.

The offset gimbal rotorhead, whereby a component of rotor thrust is fed back into the cyclic control system, produces an illusion of stability. A riding lawnmower with a Bensen rotor system would appear to be stable.

Properly designed, a gyroplane is likely the safest as well as the easiest form of flight. Poorly designed but with a Bensen rotor system, a gyro is still easy to fly up until the moment of catastrophe.

[RotoPlane]

I have gone through the same reading and wondering as you Gil. In my opinion, you are on the correct path and you have chosen a well designed gyro. The Hornet has the design features needed for a safe flight. I assume you have already read Leigh's (Resasi) excellent build thread. If you stick to the design plans, you will have accomplished the most important safety factor….the gyro.

One would be foolish to transition from a 3-axis ultra-light with a 1000 hours in type, to a Bonanza without a training checkout. Same thing applies from a fixed-wing to a gyro. Any fixed-wing plane can "bite" you if you don't know or follow that types flight procedures…..in the same respect, so will a gyro. Indeed, a gyro will be safer than any FW, simply because it can't stall. If you get the proper training to learn both what to do and what not to do (same for any aircraft), you will be able to fly safely.

[PW_Plack]

...My question is, aside from training and the stability of pusher gyros, now presumably highly improved, how can these machines "bite you?"

Gil, part of the issue is wrapped up in this question. We'll make real strides when we can stop presuming and look at actual results of stability testing. That will start to happen when the FAA permits LSA gyroplanes, and ASTM standards become the de facto measuring tool for the industry. Kitmakers who are unwilling to tell us how their machines perform in the tests will be left to sell only to people who don't care about safety or discount the need for stability, insurance rates for non-ASTM kits will stay sky-high, etc. Eventually, it'll be get safe or go out of business.

Self-training is not just a problem in pilot skills. Many of the engine issues and other mechanical failures which cause accidents involve self-trained builders and mechanics choosing components or construction techniques, materials and fasteners not appropriate for high-reliability applications in high-vibration environments, or skipping steps such as safety wiring.

In the end, it's all human factors, amplified by the assumption that "I can put this thing down in a cul de sac if the engine quits."

[Heron]

Any machine will bite your after or at the envelope´s edge.
Get the dos and donts of gyro making and training and be as safe as only a gyro pilot can be . . . but always inside the envelope.
It does look aerobatic but it is not, it is the way it turns and flies.
Heron

[brett s]

Heron actually said something that makes sense - staying inside the envelope.

Without proper training you don't know where the edges of the envelope are, or what to do if something goes wrong. That's why training is so important...

[Heron]

It will take time for both envelopes to match, machine´s and pilot´s.
Heron

[Timchick]

Heron actually said something that makes sense - staying inside the envelope.

Without proper training you don't know where the edges of the envelope are, or what to do if something goes wrong. That's why training is so important...

Bingo. If a person self trains how will they know what not to do? Finding out from the school of hard knocks can be deadly. An instructor will teach the do's and don'ts and save someone from learning the hard way first hand.

[BEN S]

as a comparison to your ultra light when you taxi it can be stopped and just sit there. On a gyro that is taxing if you just stop you STILL have a 60 lb weight over your head that's moving at something like 300 mph. that is a LOT of energy to control and not knowing how to can destroy your machine VERY quickly. Having the best instructor/training in the world is NO guarantee you won't still have a brain fart and ball it up either, but its your best bet at keeping your skin and machine intact.
Ben S

[Resasi]

Another Bingo there Ben.

Since we have a Forum member who has decided to go up without training I wonder just how much he has absorbed from the Forum about rotor handling.

He may have read some of the excellent threads on that, and blade sailing/flap. and I hope he has, because that is one area that self learners may well ovelook and that can very quickly get them into trouble.

The person in question has an extremely light disc loading and they may well slow down very quickly if mishandled.

[giro5]

Do a search on "accidents" there are 500 threads there. Ones older that 2006 aren't available. Of course not each thread is a seperate accident but there are a lot of accidents.

These machines should be the safest but the record shows they are far from it period! If I was a young family man I would not even consider this sport. But if you are an old fart just taking up space like me, divorced familly moved on what the hell. Refuse to live your life just to safely arrive at death.

[Resasi]

Thats why it an old fart's sport.

[Doug Riley]

Even a stable aircraft (which up-to-date gyro designs generally are) can bite you. In aircraft, some things simply happen faster than you can "think through" your reaction. There just isn't always time to think. To stay ahead of the machine, you must have reflexes that bypass the "think it through" process.

An example in FW ultralights is power loss on climbout in a drag-meister such as a Quicksilver. When the noise stops, all those cables bring YOU to a stop right NOW. You will stall in a heartbeat and fall out of the sky unless you have the reflex to put those nose over aggressively right NOW. There isn't time to ponder the situation.

Rotor handling in a gyro is much the same. Things happens fast because the rotor blades are moving fast.

Gyros also have sporty control reactions -- basically, quite a bit of control power per inch of control displacement. This makes them a blast to fly, but, like aerobatic airplanes, they are livelier than a beginner-level UL plane.

Because gyros can fly very slowly, you can find yourself cruising low over the runway at some wild crab angles. Set her down, or lose power, in this situation and you better have some quick relexes on the rudder or you're going to roll it when you touch down.

It's best to have an instructor along to save your bacon when you get into these white-knuckle situations.

[Resasi]

Purely from observation, and a very small amount of experience on gyros, I would say that although seemingly simple to fly it would seem to be far easier to back oneself into a corner where things can go wrong in an instant.

I would also venture that critical limits on a gyro can be reached far more easily than on most basic fixed wing craft.

Getting instruction on these machines by someone who has been there and trained to impart good informed information therefore by far the most sensible course of action, well worth both effort and money to stay safe, not only for the individual but for the good of the sport and others as well.

[gilgsn]

Thank you everyone very good points!

The self-training issue reminds me of my cave-diving days in North Florida (Alachua County mostly). A few regular scuba instructors died in those underwater caves. They did not understand the cave environment, and how quickly it can change. Swim the wrong way for instance, and you'll kick-up so much silt, you can't see an inch in front of you. Mis-manage your gas, and, well, there is no going up to the surface on one breath here.. They were all told not to go without training, and they died. Experienced cave divers died too, because of their mistakes, overconfidence, or lack of preparation. Some were adamant about using improper gear.. Very much like what I see here.. I wouldn't be surprised to find cave divers on this forum actually..

People forget they have families and friends. If you're alone and want to do something stupid, go ahead, who cares. Personally, I am making sure I study EVERYTHING and take enough lessons so that my parents, girlfriend and her kids never get the dreaded news.. Not getting trained for yourself,oh well.. But submitting someone else to that much grief, pretty insensitive if you ask me..

I survived a few mistakes flying ultralights, including a half-turn spin at 1000ft after a dynamic stall. Fortunately I had practiced and shoved the stick forward instantly with opposite rudder, ended-up at 500ft in three seconds..
I also had two engine failures, which were not so dramatic, thanks to my instructor's advise.. You can actually read about them here:

http://keskydee.com/wordpress/archives/category/aviation

So, no self-destructing behavior for me... I will start my Hornet building thread soon, and I'll listen! Be ready for my newbie's questions ;-) I won't spare you guys!

I'll be at Bensen Days probably on Friday, my cell is (941)735-2457, if anyone wants to meet-up :-)

Gil.

[choppergabor]

I will look you up Gil for sure. If that's you pic in the avatar I'll recognize you. I also use my pic for avatar...... :) 386-7957816

[gilgsn]

All right Gabor, look for me there tomorrow afternoon.. :-)

[Mickey Lessley]

Here are my thoughts on the subject.
Man and flying are not a natural. We have developed senses as land animals. From my experience mostly with fixed wing aircraft, there are certain instincts that don't work while flying! All flying entails certain motor skills and thought processes that need to be honed to be as second nature as possible. Frequently completely different from naturally learned instincts as land animals. And it obviously works. But it all comes down to proper training with qualified instruction and experience
Flying in of itself has more risk obviously than walking down a path! So why do people want to take additional risks? That you will have to answer for yourself. The rewards are not for everyone.
As far as gyroplanes! There are some definate pluses compared to other forms of flight. And some negetives. Stick around long enough and ask the questions, and you'll get the answeres.