Webber 750 engine

[Heliapaviation]

Hello all;
I'm new to your forum, but not new to helicopters, I was just reading some posts on this site the other day. I design and build equipment for the helicopter industry and try to keep apprised on a wide variety of topics.
I saw the new MH1 aka Mini 500, (please don’t take offence to my ignorance to the differences between the two). and was interested to see that it is still evolving. Carbon fiber rotors kind of scare me, for one, they would be very light, having said that, I hope they are tip weighted. The difference between believing in God and meeting him is often found in rotor inertia. My experience with carbon fiber is: yes its light, no it isn’t very resilient to impact of any kind. My weave of choice is the carbon fiber Kevlar blend, very nice stuff, tough as hell.
Moving on.. I notice the MH1 is boasting an increase in horsepower, 4stroke power at that, very good. What make is the engine? During the development of a number of our products we have found the need for a power-plant that demonstrates a great power to weight value coupled with reliability, I know, that’s an oxymoron you say. Chasing the holy grail again.. but I have run across an interesting power-plant; The Webber MPE750. This engine is a little big for what we typically need an engine for but I was impressed by its versatility and power. Weber has taken an interesting approach to the MPE (Multi Purpose Engine). It is used in a variety of off road vehicles and personal watercraft, but Weber intended this motor to be a modular power-plant self contained and applicable to any number of applications. They have designed and sell the motor for use in projects outside their scope of marketing.
It comes in naturally aspirated and turbo versions, its fuel injected, the ECU is integral to the package and it is designed to be stand alone. Other attractive features are that it has its PTO either front or back, naturally aspirated is about 104 hp and the turbo version is 135hp overall weight is 100lbs! I know they make a larger version because it is in the Hydrospace sit down jet ski and its producing the 160+ range of Horsepower. Polaris also uses this motor in some of its quads and snowmobiles I believe.
Very cool engine, great reliability, a little pricey though, but we are talking aircraft here, safety and reliability should come first.
In my limited opinion this should be the engine of choice for kit aircraft of all kinds.
Check it out, and don’t overlook the marine version.
www.weber-motor.com/en/products/mpe-750/index.html
Feel free to check out my site as well www.heliap.com

Keep the spinny side up!
Kurt.

[Brent_Brown]

I like it thanks for the info.

[GyroDoug]

Curt,

This engine has already been discussed on the forum and you can look up the threads on it and read what has already been said. I agree with you and think this engine has great potential for experimental aircraft. I know that the Butterfly LLC has plans to use that engine in future models and I am sure others will also once they know more about it and it has a little track record, Thank you for bringing it up as we all should be checking it out more closely. It and the Yamaha snowmobile engine both should see a lot more action in rotorcraft in the near future.

[BrianBeatty]

Hey does anyone know what models of polaris Quads have a weber 4 stroke in them, or are they just in their snowmobiles & watercraft?

Brian

[Brent_Brown]

I don't think it is this engine as far as know only the snowmobiles have it. look for a FST or IQ amother engine to use will be the 660 tubro Artic cat.

[utahgyrocop]

The 2009 polaris has the 750. For 2010 or 2011 not sure which will use the new 850 weber. It is a cool concept. If you go to the polaris website and search for the turbo model, you will find it. You can even click on the engines and see it.

http://www.polarisindustries.com/en-us/Snowmobiles/2010/Performance/IQ-Turbo-Dragon/Pages/Features.aspx

On the left side click on turbo charged fst engine and you will see it.

[ckurz7000]

A new German gyrocopter, the Cloud Dancer II (manufactured by Rotortec in Germany), is going to be propelled by the new Weber motor. The engine will be downgraded to 130 hp.

-- Chris.

[GaryMac]

GyroDoug... Can you give any more information on the plans for using this motor on the Butterfly / Monarch gyros?

Thanks, GaryMac

[Canadian Rhino]

Hey boys this engine is no toy!
I do own one of these sleds and it never stops leaving me in shear aw!
A 1000 cc arctic cat can run with it not bad but this one always can leave it behind more so on top end.
The 1000 ac is rated at around 175 hp but the torque is back around 100
Mine is 145 hp with a 6 second burst to 155 but my torque is around 150
I now have over 2000 miles on this sled with absolutly no problems and just love it.
when running with other 2 strke sleds it uses 1/2 of the fuel they use running together on the same trails and NO OIL! AND QUIET AND NO SMOKE AND NO NOISE!
I will never go back!
I would not even consider a yamaha just a big heavy pig that wont go in 2 feet of snow.
In a drag race the 1000 4 yamaha will keep up inch for inch to roughly 70 mph and then when the turbo and intercooler combo kick in it all changes.
It is a hard site to get into but Amsno publishes the shootout race results every year and the record holder for 3 or maybe now 4 years in a row have been the Weber turbo 750
May the RX 1 ton yamaha rest in peace!!!!!!!!!

[helipaddy]

Heres an engine on ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Polaris-Four-Stroke-WEBER-motor_W0QQitemZ370195949594QQcmdZViewItemQQptZSnow mobile_Parts_Accessories?hash=item563165e81a

[helipaddy]

http://www.afors.com/index.php?page=adview&adid=15629&imid=0

[scottessex]

Great info, Thanks!

[PalmPilot]

Been watching these motors for awhile... I'm impressed more now that I've seen it it person. Amazed with the power there pulling out of em & the abuse there taking!

[Brent_Brown]

nice gearbox on that turbo engine from the SME site.

this is the engine we need to get out of the polaris sleads, someone has got to be in the snow looking for some.

racer?

[helipaddy]

Heres the link to the tech specs of the engine. the normally aspirated engine looks to be mated to a rotax C type gerarbox. looks like a real neat installation

http://aeroshop.it/sme/SMEimg/SMEEngine.pdf

[scottessex]

I want one real bad, I wonder how much they cost.
I also wonder how much had to be changed from the snowmobile application.

[PalmPilot]

You can get turbo (bare) long blocks starting at about $4500. But then you'll have to add intake, exhaust/turbo, intercooler, sensors, ecu, radiator, etc... So it's probably more cost affective to pickup a used machine.

[Brent_Brown]

Better off with the complete sled and selling what is not going in the air.

Not much needing changed to get one in the air and the actic cat t660 looks just as EZ. the raven redrive guy said he had 2 cats to sell. I was going to call me but here it is weeks later.

[WHY]

This looks like a real gut ache for Rotax, but then if you look at the title of the engine it is "MPE" (multi-purpose engine) so it had multi use as a design feature and this is what is making it so "usable" especially in our "aviation" use. looks like they have done a nice job on producing a custom gear box for it as well. Wish them the best of luck on sales growth and production in the market place. They might eventually get some govt contracts for "drone engines" and make some other "big" name manufacture a little nervous.

Tony

[WHY]

Now all we need is "proof of performance and durability" and the race is on.

Tony

[PalmPilot]

The proof is already here, beyond the ski's & sled's. Out here in the western states it's the latest rage in the offroad UTV & Buggy scene! These guys are doing the swap's & pumping up to 170hp out of the turbo motors. And you wouldn't believe how much they abuse them, from the desert to the dunes. I met one person that had the intake boots crack from running it hard & jumping all day. He wasn't aware until that evening, took it home & cleaned out the dirt residue up to the pistons, then changed the oil. That was at 800 miles, he now has about 2600!

[GyroDoug]

GyroDoug... Can you give any more information on the plans for using this motor on the Butterfly / Monarch gyros?
Thanks, GaryMac

GaryMac,

Sorry for taking so long to answer your question but I lost track of this thread and hadn't checked it for a while. Anyway, I just saw your post.

I do not think you will ever see this engine on a Monarch Gyro. This is a bigger and heavier engine and would replace the Rotax 912 that the Aurora Butterfly was designed for. The Monarch is a lighter Gyro designed for smaller engines and less power.

I do not know how soon you will see one of these available on a Butterfly but I suspect it will be a while before it comes to market. Larry is more interested in the newer 850 version than he is the 750. It may be a while before he has access to the one he wants to use and then it will take some time to develop but it is in the planning stages and I believe will be a great option when it finally becomes available.

[WHY]

Hey PalmPilot

Thanks for that input , looks like the RACE IS ON !!!!!!!!!!

Tony

[Brent_Brown]

I don't think it will be bigger and heavier engine than 912 and it will have the power of the 914.

This is what I got from the guy selling it. affter VAT and shipping they want as much as the rotax well almost.

I think it can be done at home for under 9000 usd

they have a very nice gear box for a front mounted engine but for a pusher bolt a cbox on it and go.

[Brent_Brown]

t his will work.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Weber-Motor-Hydrospace-Polaris-RZR-FS-Hydrospace-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem439c07a0faQQitemZ29038 0554490QQptZPersonalQ5fWatercraftQ5fParts

[Scagmo]

Anyone know if the marine version would work?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Weber-Polaris-MSX-Turbo-Complete-running-engine-motor-/200467053261?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Personal_Watercraft_Parts&hash=item2eacc47acd

Harold

[Brent_Brown]

Here is a deal If someone wants a good set up this is the offroad package weber wants about 7000 as it is here. I know this guy said it is 160hp but I know it is a 120hp it is the same engine hoverpod use.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/weber-polaris-race-rhino-engine-160HP-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem335d1238ffQQitemZ22060 4807423QQptZMotorsQ5fAircraft

[Jason O]

This is exactly the kind of talk that drives me crazy. The only way to verify that it will run a propeller for may hours reliably is to use it in an aircraft. If you could verify aircraft engine reliability by running it in a totally different application, then I guess we could say that there are literally hunderds of reliable aircraft engines out there in cars, snowmobiles, off road vehicles, generators, pumps, motorcycles, boats and watercraft. How many engines have we seen come and go over the years? There is a reason we do not have a couple hunderd proven engines to choose from for our airplanes. Is it because all of the people who have tried are stupid? I dont think so, I think that spinning a propeller in an aircraft is a very demanding application and ground based "testing" cannot be applied.

Jason

The proof is already here, beyond the ski's & sled's. Out here in the western states it's the latest rage in the offroad UTV & Buggy scene! These guys are doing the swap's & pumping up to 170hp out of the turbo motors. And you wouldn't believe how much they abuse them, from the desert to the dunes. I met one person that had the intake boots crack from running it hard & jumping all day. He wasn't aware until that evening, took it home & cleaned out the dirt residue up to the pistons, then changed the oil. That was at 800 miles, he now has about 2600!

[Brent_Brown]

Thanks for the input.

[PalmPilot]

This is exactly the kind of talk that drives me crazy. The only way to verify that it will run a propeller for may hours reliably is to use it in an aircraft. If you could verify aircraft engine reliability by running it in a totally different application, then I guess we could say that there are literally hunderds of reliable aircraft engines out there in cars, snowmobiles, off road vehicles, generators, pumps, motorcycles, boats and watercraft. How many engines have we seen come and go over the years? There is a reason we do not have a couple hunderd proven engines to choose from for our airplanes. Is it because all of the people who have tried are stupid? I dont think so, I think that spinning a propeller in an aircraft is a very demanding application and ground based "testing" cannot be applied.

Jason

What really gets me, is the people that "seem" to have a stick up their aft, and "appear" to portray themselves as self proclaimed experts! Yet, "seem" to enjoy bashing others for there experience, or lack of... Such as you did with fiveboy! Yet also, do not "appear" to have the intelligence to decipher between a serious or lighthearted post!!!

Whats up with that Dude!!!

We are all here to learn from each other and to promote a safer and more enjoyable sport!

Now I'm no expert!!! And do agree with some of your statement...But with regards to engines, isn't this why it's "apparently" called experimental!
Were all looking for the "best of the best," with the correct power to weight ratio... Hence, not hundred's to choose from... And obviously would have to be the one's that are proving themselves on the ground first...

Mike

[Jason O]

Was this a serious or light hearted post?

What really gets me, is the people that "seem" to have a stick up their aft, and "appear" to portray themselves as self proclaimed experts! Yet, "seem" to enjoy bashing others for there experience, or lack of... Such as you did with fiveboy! Yet also, do not "appear" to have the intelligence to decipher between a serious or lighthearted post!!!

Whats up with that Dude!!!

We are all here to learn from each other and to promote a safer and more enjoyable sport!

Now I'm no expert!!! And do agree with some of your statement...But with regards to engines, isn't this why it's "apparently" called experimental!
Were all looking for the "best of the best," with the correct power to weight ratio... Hence, not hundred's to choose from... And obviously would have to be the one's that are proving themselves on the ground first...

Mike

[scottessex]

Jason do you have anything constructive to add, or are you just being combative?

Why don't you add to the forum and tell us about your engine conversion, and what kinds of things you have encountered with it.
This would add much more value to you posts, and make better reading. Thanks.

[Jason O]

Hello Scott,

I dont know what to say about your first comment. All of my posts are directed specifically at people who make comments that they state as fact, but are based on perception or make huge leaps of assumption. I believe that people who post things like "its a proven engine because the snowmobile guys say it runs strong", this engine is way better than that because the way the gearbox mounts", "this engine will only burn miniscule amounts of fuel because it gets great gas milage in the vehicle", "this engine will be a slam dunk just slap a gearbox on it and go", this engine will run for 1000's of hours because of how long it runs in the vehicle" are making connections that dont apply or are not true.

I believe saying these things are doing a dis-service to people who are looking for engines. I think people should understand (as you do) what a long hard road it will be if you choose to go the alternate engine route. People should go into it with eyes wide open about the facts that if an engine runs well in a vehicle, it means very little about how it will run connected to a gearbox and a prop. The general reason people want an alternate engine is to reduce the cost of the engine. I can tell you that the 4 year journey on my alternate engine route probably was not much less expensive than shopping hard for a good used 912 engine that would be much more likely to be reliable for way more hours.

If you are a tinkerer and you dont mind working on your aircraft more than you fly it and enjoy the challenge (and reward) of spending much time and money on fixing, reworking and testing, then the alternate engine route might be for you. I dont think it should ever be presented (especially by people who have never gone down the road) as something that is easy, inexpensive, and wont take hundeds of flight hours to actuall work through.

I think if you go back and read the posts I have written, they only dispute things that stated as fact but are making huge (and faulty) leaps of logic or are based on emotion and hope. Example of this would be imply (or state) that an engine would be reliable in an airplane because of its record in another vehicle. Another example would be how inexpensive this conversion will be when all the person has purchased so far is the bare engine and has no quotes or anything for everything else (which could quite possibly be many times more than the engine cost).

As I posted once, the thing that is wrong with the forum is that when I dispute these "facts" people dont respond with "I have a quote and have a full bill of materials about how much this will cost", or this engine has been run for hundreds of hours in an aircraft, what they respond with is "self proclaimed expert", "guess I am stupid then", and they start the personal thing when nothing was ever implied about them personally only the things they are stating as fact. If we are to have a real exchange of ideas, lets exchange ideas and not an exchange of emotion.

I totally understand that everyone gets to make up their own mind and no one forces you to go down the alternate engine route. It is expiremental aviation and everyone knows that. I have just been on a crusade lately to bring a little reality to this thing.

I have responded and helped anyone who has sent me private messages about my engine installation and my expierences with it. One reason I have not posted my success on the open forum is so I dont want to perpetuate the illusion that the engine I choose to use is reliable and will work for everyone. From expierence, what would happen is I would say it is working well for me and you will imediately see people saying look how reliable this engine is and I will just get one of these myself and slap it on and it will be totally trouble free. Conversly, if I post the problems, you will get people (with mostly dubious motives) saying that engine is junk, it has been tried and has many problems. I am most comfortable letting people know what engine I am running and then if they are sincere about wanting to know the facts or talk, they can pm me and I am a fountain of information.

The only thing I can tell you for sure about my installation is that it will run for 62 hours and be acceptably (to me) trouble free. Beyond that, I cannot speculate.

Regards
Jason

Jason do you have anything constructive to add, or are you just being combative?

Why don't you add to the forum and tell us about your engine conversion, and what kinds of things you have encountered with it.
This would add much more value to you posts, and make better reading. Thanks.

[scottessex]

Jason, Perhaps I misunderstood the intent of your post. The written forum is not the best at conveying emotion and inflections, etc.
I apologize for any misunderstanding.
You are correct in what you have said.
if the alternative engine thing was easy, and a sure thing, everyone would be using one.
Rotax engines started in snowmobiles, the company saw the potential for a market segment and developed a superior product, no doubt.
It looks like Weber over in Europe may be taking the same route with this engine.
With the EPA and every one trying to outlaw 2 strokes, and rotax saying they are going to drop the 503 etc, people are excited about a new alternative.
Yes sometimes we get over excited because we see something that we think might be the answer to our dilemma.
The Yamaha is very impressive, I know it has had teething problems like everything else.
There is NO cheap answer, what is R&D time worth?
I agree with everything that you have stated in your previous post.

Again, I apologize for taking the earlier post out of context.

[Racer]

Someone who has never done R&D work has no idea of how many hundreds of hours it takes to design and build something, they have no idea how many parts end up in the scrap pile because they are not quite rite or you find a better way to accomplish your goal, not counting what the raw material costs that you just threw away. How many things you have bought and never ended up using because it did not pan out like you first thought it would.
I must also say that I am a bit disappointed in this thread in general, when I read it I get this motor is better than the Yamaha motors because yadda yadda, this motor is simpler than the Yamaha's because yadda yadda this motor is going to be more reliable because yadda yadda.
These statements may or may not be true but I have never felt the need to stand on the necks of my compition to promote my idea ever. I feel if my product is better it will sell it's self with out me having to resort to these childish tactics.
I have much respect for anyone who puts their neck and money on the line trying to find a better way that will benefit other people in general and who says one idea is the only one worth considering? Look how many different auto manufacturers their are who all have their own great ideas yet they all survive and learn off of each other, Why should we be any different?
My motto is all boats rise in a high tide.
Just my two cents.
Todd

[GyroRon]

Todd, I wouldn't stress.... There has been plenty of talk about the Weber engines for years, but other than Larry Neal, I know no one that has put their money where their mouth is and bought one. Yamaha's on the other hand, well there is what 3-4 of them flying already and several more on order or already delivered and in the installation stage? That ought to say something right there

[scottessex]

Ron and Todd, I believe that the Yamaha and the Weber can BOTH be successful, They have already converted webers over in Europe, I have opted not to spend the money right now because I cannot justify the cost Plus the R&D at this point. I have enough going on I do not want to start a business.
But that being said, The yamaha is 100+ HP and quite a bit larger than the rotax 582.
The weber on the other hand is about 80 hp, and approximately the same size as the 582,
Theoretically, you could replace the 582 with the weber without having to modify the whole aircraft tyo carry a heavier and larger engine.
No one ever said one was better than another, just a different option.
Yes people are sick and tired of rotax raising the prices 4 times a year, and charging
4 times the price for each component. BUT rotax has dumped a lot of money into R&D to make a good product.
So you have to pay to play, unless you can find something else that works.
I do not believe that the weber and the yamaha would be competing for the same market.

Rotortec (http://213.155.73.78/rotortec/index.htm)and SME (http://aeroshop.it/sme/) have both been using the weber.

[Friendly]

Todd, I wouldn't stress.... There has been plenty of talk about the Weber engines for years, but other than Larry Neal, I know no one that has put their money where their mouth is and bought one. Yamaha's on the other hand, well there is what 3-4 of them flying already and several more on order or already delivered and in the installation stage? That ought to say something right there

Ron,
Find me one I can afford and I will put my money on a Weber. Not to say that the Yahama is not good. I respect what Todd has done. I have made plenty of throw away parts for sure.

[Brent_Brown]

At some time someone said put a VW on that and a EA, EJ Soob. I like finding engine that I think will make a good gyro engine. If I never use one so what. If someone wants to go for it. I just put a 1000 buck on my 670 to make it DCDI. It worked but it could of been all bad. I might of been the 1st to use a MZ202 on a gyro and I liked it.
I offer what I know if you ask and don't bad mouth othre for doing it the way they want. Not that I thinlk anyone was.

We need to find more option to power the toy we love to fly.

I still in Afghanistan so fly for me some will you?

[CLS447]

Brent, I'll have Q deliver "Little Nellie 2 " to you....... You can fly her yourself !

Just don't shoot down too many choppers ! OK double O ?

PS...She will be equipped with Dillon's Mini guns !

[WHY]

Heard it mentioned on an earlier post that Weber was going to the 850 model soon. Anyone remember when that was ?

Tony

[GyroRon]

Ron,
Find me one I can afford and I will put my money on a Weber. Not to say that the Yahama is not good. I respect what Todd has done. I have made plenty of throw away parts for sure.

Mark, there is no cheap way to go about it.... The Yamaha set up will end up costing 7-10 grand depending on what you need and what you already have and what you can find a donor sled for. So they aren't cheap either.

Not sure what the weber costs, but if you can get one new for 7500$ that doesn't seem out of line to me if all you need to add is a gearbox.

Brent, I personally feel the same as you do, the more engine choices the better. I was just commenting on the weber cause for some reason there is alot of talk about it, but no takers.

The VW and Subaru guys choose those engine cause they are very cheap to buy and convert. Even today a brand new Aerovee 80 HP Vw engine conversion is about what a new 503 Rotax goes for which in the grand scheme of things is still cheap. Even today a person could scratch up a junkyard EJ-22 and convert it to direct drive and put it on a single place gyro and have reasonable performance, for I would estimate under 1500$ total spent.

[WHY]

Wonder if when the Weber 850 the 750 will be discontinued or if both will be made?

Tony

[WHY]

Wonder if Neil at Autoflight is going to make a gear box for it ?

Tony

[MikeBoyette]

Tony,
Dad is getting one this week and will be sending it to Neil to do just that.

[scottessex]

Mike, where is he getting it?
PM me if you can. Thanks.

[Brent_Brown]

Someone just got one on ebay for 4000. I wish it was me.

[WHY]

Hi Mike

That's great, man will I be watching the progress and performance of this set up !!!!!!!

Tony

[Friendly]

Tony,
Dad is getting one this week and will be sending it to Neil to do just that.

Mike,
I am very excited about this. I spoke with Neal about a dedicated redrive for this engine a month or so before Sun and Fun. We were suppose to meet at Bensen Days and discuss it further. As you know Neal did not make it. So I am glad your dad is shipping him the engine. I hear it is very expensive to ship across the water.
I like the fact he wants do do testing on the product as well. He said his universal box would work with an adapter plate but that is just more weight.
I admire the work Neal did on the Yahama Quad and commend your Dad and Neal for making a dedicated unit for that engine.
With all that said, I still think the weber is going to be a winner.
I have a few things working on the back burner for the weber already and hope to say something about it soon.

[JEFF TIPTON]

The one from Ebay for $4,000 was bought by me and hopefully it will be shipped soon. Sometimes people are burnt on these type of purchases but I am confident that I will receive the unit. I ran across a site a few days ago that has some manuals so that should not be a problem.

It will be interesting to see if there is enough there to run.

Brent would that have been on Ebay asking about the weight?

[WHY]

What makes this engine so exciting is a comment made by ROTORTEC on the thread "Polaris buys Weber" . If I understand correctly he states that they have full support from Weber on there experiment with there gyro. If this is correct that is great news to have a manufacturer helping you at the git go.

Tony

[Friendly]

The one from Ebay for $4,000 was bought by me and hopefully it will be shipped soon. Sometimes people are burnt on these type of purchases but I am confident that I will receive the unit. I ran across a site a few days ago that has some manuals so that should not be a problem.

It will be interesting to see if there is enough there to run.

Brent would that have been on Ebay asking about the weight?

Congratulations Jeff, keep us well posted.

[Brent_Brown]

No I was looking only.

[WHY]

Hi Mike

In your post #45, is the Weber your dad is getting, turbo charged or NA

Tony

[WHY]

Anyone seen these engines mounted, are they saddle mounted or mounted from the rear(firewall mount) or both

Tony

[Brent_Brown]

it can be both ways

[WHY]

Thanks Brent, this is important to me as I consider the Weber as one of the options for my tractor gyro and will want a firewall mount arrangement.

Tony

[Brent_Brown]

Looking at the SME web site they say non turbo engine is 136lbs. If it can be under 150lbs wet with prop getting 70+ hp is not a bad combo. If you download the PDF you can see they bolted a PTO adapter to the crank. This is not the snow engine. It has the internal mag that is lighter.

[WHY]

Hi Mike Boyette

Bump on post #54

Tony

[WHY]

Anybody know if the 850 version will be both N/A and turbo ?

Tony

[WHY]

Hello to all

Have some questions about the Weber, earlier I inquired if it was mounted firewall or saddle and the answer was both, now, my firewall bolt pattern would be 20 inches wide and 14- 7/8 high would anyone know from see one of these engines if this would be sufficient to do a firewall mount ?

Also notice they use the Rotax "C" box on the N/A version and a custome gear box on the turbo. If I read things right, the custome box has 3 gears, wounder how this is goint to work out with the torsional frequencies and vibes, does this box have a elastomeric dampener like a Love Joy coupler ? I just got lots of questions so have at it, all help appreciated !!!!

Tony

[MikeBoyette]

Tony,
Sorry been away from the computer for a couple of days. It is turbo. Dad sent an extra case he has to Neil to fit a gear box to it. Meanwhile he will begin planning to mount it to an airframe. Probably going on an UltraWhite airframe to test it.

[WHY]

Well now, this just gets more and more interesting. First, I just answered some of my own question by going to post #15 and going to the SME link helipaddy posted and the very last picture on the specs has what looks like a firewall mount.

Now since I'm almost totally illiterate on meterics I used the comment at the top of the picture that says these measurements are in centimerers, ooooooookk. I go to a site that has conversion features , oh oh trouble , this thing (using centimeters ) is bigger than a 454 V-8 , almost had the BIG ONE right there, so went to millimeters and the blood pressure went back to normal !!!!

Tony

[WHY]

Hi mike thanks for the quick reply. Tell Ernie I sure appreciate all the work he does for us experimenters. On a Ultrawhite that's gonna be ONE BUTT KICK'N MACHINE !!

Tony

[MikeBoyette]

Don't know if that's what he is going to use. I was just guessing since he already has two rolling airframes available. I already offered to be the guinea pig for testing it for a large pilot. He said no. Oh well I tried guess I'll just have to loose 40 more pounds.

[WHY]

Well things sure do get complicated fast, when I started my tractor project I had to decide which engine I wanted to use. I wanted to use a Subaru EA-81 as I was very familiar with them but there was this issue of the radiator and my fuselage is rather small so it would have been a bit bulky and the decision on what re-drive to use so it would have been a little bulky on my fuselage. The other choice in my picture was a VW but it was air cooled and used more gas , but when I saw the Valley re-drive that sort of made the decission.

Things go along fairly well , I get my motor mount about 90 percent done and buy (two) of the Diehl engine mounts (different starter locations) and decide which one of these I want to use and work progresses on. Then along comes this darn Weber and everything just slams to a halt (engine wise).

Been doing a lot of web site hopping today and looked at the Valley site and see they are giving there premium engine weight at around 185 pounds with re-drive and prop but no oil, since gyro's use lots of power and this will be in a cowl it will be necessary to do some sheet metal work for cooling so there will be some more weight and exhaust will have to be figured in later for both engines and they are presently giving a price of almost $10,000 , $9950 to be exact, and thats 100 hp max rpm.

Now the SME web site gives the Weber turbo a weight of 158 pounds and although they don't say,I assume that is with the re-drive but dry weight with no prop now add a oil cooler ,radiator, plumbing, and coolant and some sheet metal for radiator pressurizing ( you do know that a GOOD cooling system on a radiator has got to suck as well a blow) in other words you MUST have a negative pressure behind the radiator or you will just get a air dam infront and it will stall the flow. Now you add in the modern design of the Weber and the 135 max hp plus some really good gear boxes and it looks like Neil is going to make a standard box for it and you end up having to make a DECISION all over again, MAN , it is just like RACER said, until you have done the R&D side of it you just can't know what it's like to build BUT I SURE AM HAVING FUN (I think).

Tony

[WHY]

Hello to all

Was looking thru all the post here on the Weber 750 and trying to glean some info and checked out the link in post # 25 by Brent Brown. It went to a E-Bay posting by a speed shop in Lake Havasu City Az.

"Looks" like this palce rebuilds and hops up all sorts of watercraft and snowmobile engines to all different levels of "boost" and is deep into the Weber engines. This looks like a place to possibly get a engine, they seem to start around 5k and I am sure you would get near 10k by the time you add all the intake and exhaust manifolds and or turbo and ect ect plus the re-drive yet to be determined. My point is it would let you break up the initial outlay (especially if you are not in snowmobile country where you would have a chance at a sled).

My question to anyone out there in gyro land, has anyone dealt with this company or is anyone close to look this stuff over and give an opinion, they sound like they are experienced in there work.

I am very cautious about "hopped up engines although I had planned to use a Great Plains 2180 VW which is a "hop up" but very time proven.

Tony

[Friendly]

Do you have a link

[WHY]

Hi Mark

All the info I have is what they posted in the "E-Bay" posting that Brent gave in post #25

Tony

[WHY]

The engine they list in the "E-Bay" post is for a watercraft but they mention ATV so I think they can do other craft.

Tony

[WHY]

Jeff Tipton

Hi Jeff did you get your Weber yet, hope to get some demensions from you where the engine would mount on a firewall , as shown in the one picture on the SME thread

Tony

[JEFF TIPTON]

Tony; the Weber engine has arrived, but I have been to busy with work to lay out all the parts that came with it. I have a request in to locate the manuals for the installation that should answer some questions for me.

Are you needing the dimensions for the mounting points or bell housing area.

Would pictures of all four sides help?

[WHY]

HI Jeff

Thanks for the quick reply, Yes I think pics of the four sides would help, it is the back end (not the power take off end) that I am interested in. In one of the links (I think it is # 25 by Helipaddy ) that SME shows a lot of layouts, there is a drawing of a side view of a firewall mount but no actual pictures. Between this drawing and a picture of the baack end I think I could visualize how the mount is made. I'm just a hair away from buying a Weber myself and this could push me over the edge.

Tony

[WHY]

Ok you guys that are familiar with Neil's gear boxes, what is the offset of the universial box ???? Also what is the hp rating for Rotax's "E" box , I think the rating for the "C" box is 120 but the Weber turbo is rated at 135 max and 120 cruise. If anyone is interested there is a "C' box for sale on Barnstomers for $1k

Tony

[JEFF TIPTON]

Tony; I was wondering why you might be considering the E box. If I am not mistaking, and I could be, the main diffrence between the C box and the E box is the electric starter on the E box. The Weber has a starter on the end opposite the PTO.

I will be ferrying an aircraft from Cornelia Fort to Dickson tomorrow. After that I will see about the pictures and post them here. If you send me PM I will forward the the full size pictures to you. Roughly 6 mega pixells each so you can enlarge them.

[scottessex]

The C and E box are identical, except the E box has an electric starter and an idler gear
for the starter, the drive gears, damper, HP rating are the same.

[WHY]

All-In+

John , for a two place idea go to post #1 click on link and look at MPE-V4. 200 hp non-turbo in a basically 20 inch by 20 inch by 20 inch package with a pre-converted weight of 165 lb WOW !

Tony

[WHY]

OK John

I think the other 750 at that salvage yard is to be sold shortly and then all of us can make this 750 thread VERY INTERESTING !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tony

[All_In]

Yaw Mon, I believe this is a perfect fit for us = saddle mount & Neils redrive.
The weight to power numbers and size look good!

[ROTORTEC]

To give you some Info on Weber, we working very closely with the Factory and I can give you more information on this anytime you like.

This Engine, the MPE 4 will not be available for some time to come. My in 2012you will see the first Engines on the Market. The MPE 750 will be upgraded to the new MPE 850 from beginning of 2011. We are testing the MPE 750 presently on the CD II and short Videos can be found on YouTube. The Engine has great Value and we are using the 135 HP Version with our new Planetary Redrive as shown on this tread before.

John

[WHY]

ROTORTEC

Thank you John, keep us informed on the engine, we are very interested !!!!

Tony

[All_In]

I love this site!! You never know what expert is going to show up with real facts!
Thank you!

[WHY]

Well Jeff, think I asked a stupid question on the MPE-v4 site, I asked if you were going to replace the intake manifold, well duuuuhh, it is a turbo charged engine and the intake manifold is probably "tuned" for the set up and replacing it is not such a good idea !!!!!

Sorry but sometimes I get a severe outbreak of DA

Tony

[JEFF TIPTON]

Tony; yes mine is turbocharged engine and I should be able to take and post the pictures tomorrow.

Rotortec is it recommended to use a flywheel on the MPE750?

[WHY]

Jeff, I don't know for sure, I am guessing yes, I see on their pdf web site the are listing this engines many applications as dune buggies, UTV , ATV, Hovercraft, and military and industrial applications. Pretty impressive, and also a good reason why they are not so "gun shy" about "other experimental applications"

Talked to the company out in Lake Havasu AZ. about there rebuilds and they were "adamant" about knowing what it was going In , Sooooo I said special ATV, well what kind of special ATV(remember thay are building racing engines) so finally got tired of the game and said gyro ATV----(aerial transportation vehicle), they went stone cold, no way not in a flying vehicle, engine is not that reliable ect ect ect so there OUT !

Yet Weber has no problem by reading there applications.

Tony

[JEFF TIPTON]

I contacted the factory and they sent me the Parts and service manual for my engine. However; they did not supply the Weber-Motor repair manual as this is under our dealer protection plan.

[WHY]

Also Jeff, would'nt it be necessary to use the flywheel if you going to use their starter?

Tony

[JEFF TIPTON]

The starter motor works off the end opposite output shaft. I was just wondering if flywheel would be needed on the other end.

[WHY]

Hi Jeff

I would think that a four stroke , (unlike most two stroke which have the "flywheel" built into the crankshaft, except ones like the Mac) would be required to some degree , for momentum . The prop would work as a substitute if it were direct drive,, but with the redrive you will get terrible torsional resonance without a flywheel of some kind.

Tony

[ROTORTEC]

Toni, you are right a flywheel is needed. This is why we constructed a Planetary Redrive working together with a large Prop. for this Engine.

John

[JEFF TIPTON]

Rotortec; how much mass would be sufficient?

[WHY]

HI John

Thanks for that info, hey guys I see a lot of "guests" reading the thread, come on in the water is fine and we would like your questions and input , the forum is free, just sign in.

Tony

[WHY]

John , did you feel that a planetary style was better suited to the resonance or was it for propellor location ???

Tony

[All_In]

Toni, you are right a flywheel is needed. This is why we constructed a Planetary Redrive working together with a large Prop. for this Engine.

John
Thank you John!

Do you have any information regarding the Redrive and prop you are using? Like is it for sale and would it work for our gyroplanes, grear ratio, etc...

[WHY]

HI Jeff

Got that PDF file -----WOW----THIS IS ONE HELL OF AN ENGINE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks ever so much for the file, you pusher guys are going to have a gravy train with this engine, us tractor guys will have to do a little more work.

One thing I already notice, and a word of caution, and that is the oil tank/cooling tank. Emerson at the yard told me it is plastic and remember if you have this exposed to sunlight and what sunlight does to plastic because of UV ,I'm going to build my own tank because of the need to "SPECIA FIT" under the cowling.

Let's keep as much info on the forum in conversion threads as possible, Sure glad I made the choice and spent the money. As All-in + would say THIS ROCKS.

Tony

[JEFF TIPTON]

This part of the 750 engine weights in at 113 pounds.

[JEFF TIPTON]

These parts weigh in at 18 pounds and engine weight of 113 pounds for a total of 131 pounds. This does not include the air filter, intercooler, oil tank, oil cooler, hoses or radiator. Just need a gearbox.

[JEFF TIPTON]

Some mount points

[WHY]

Hey Jeff

Thanks for all of those pictures, this is going to be some engine !!!!!!!!!! How many miles or hours on the engine, looks new?

Tony

[All_In]

Thank you for the manuals Jeff!!!

Very cool!

Looks like it will be easy to mount and it looks good!

Thanks for the pictures too Jeff!

[JEFF TIPTON]

From what I am told this engine is a 2005 model and never run.

[WHY]

Jeff ,

What kind of bird are you going to put the engine on? A pusher or tractor, was wondering if you were going to try to design your own mount ? It will be interesting to see the various mounts that get designed and out of that should come a really good "standard" type .

Tony

[All_In]

Tony a Dominator IIRC! But he's not working on for awhile.

[WHY]

John, you know I am a tractor person and "pusher" illiterate, what is the IIRC stand for?

Tony

[All_In]

I know buddy, cannot wait to see her fly too!

IIRC - "If I remember correctly"

[WHY]

Ahh yes, the good old days , when I had a memory

Tony

[All_In]

What were we talking about Tony?
I DON'T REMEMBER? hahahahaha hehehe

[WHY]

It would be great if a "good standard design mount" could be settled on and then "someone" produce it , it would really make installation a breeze. Especially if Neil comes up with a couple of gear boxes. He mentioned that he has the 2 gear which has a 79 mm offset (about 3 inches) and a three gear which is 200 mm offset ( about 8 inches. For me , I really need the 20mm for propellor location , although I know it will be heavier. I think the 2 gear is "spash " lube , I wounder what lube system is used on the 3 gear system. Looks like a spash system would not work well on 3 gear , especially the top gear

Tony

[All_In]

This and other questions I have emailed to Nicolas! He will be back soon and I'll have more answers. It looks like an easy mount for pushers. How high up (in the view) will you have to mount it on a tractor. Is that a problem?

[WHY]

John ,

Was just crunching some possible numbers, do you know it may be possible to put together a a 4 stroke 120 hp engine and prop package for under 9k !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tony

[WHY]

John

The engine will cover my firewall top to bottom,actualy go below my firewall about 1 ot 2 inches, so need that prop up the 200mm for a good thrust line, otherwise I will have a very low thrustline and poor clearance between prop and ground.

Tony

[All_In]

When will you know about how it fits with the thrust-line?

[WHY]

should be getting my engine this week supposed to ship today or tomorrow, will take a automotive type engine hoist and "locate" the engine to the fire wall for a quick measure, at this time I will either smile or pee

Tony

[All_In]

ROFL(=rolling on floor laughing), sorry that's funny. We can sell her!

[Friendly]

It would be great if a "good standard design mount" could be settled on and then "someone" produce it , it would really make installation a breeze. Especially if Neil comes up with a couple of gear boxes. He mentioned that he has the 2 gear which has a 79 mm offset (about 3 inches) and a three gear which is 200 mm offset ( about 8 inches. For me , I really need the 20mm for propellor location , although I know it will be heavier. I think the 2 gear is "spash " lube , I wounder what lube system is used on the 3 gear system. Looks like a spash system would not work well on 3 gear , especially the top gear

Tony

Tony,
Oil has adhesive quality's, especially the heavier oils that are used in gear boxes. The oil will stick to the gears and transfer itself from tooth to tooth. I would prefer a splash system to a forced oil system especially if the oil was returned to the engine.

[JEFF TIPTON]

Tony; it is a single seat Dominator. Figured I would base it loosely around the engine mounting style of the Rotax engines.

[WHY]

Hi Mark

Right about the oil having a adhesive quality , especially "gear" oils but I think there would be need for more volume for the purpose of heat transfer, am even considering a gear box "cooler" like a oil cooler for my re-drive (what ever I use)

Tony

[WHY]

Looking at the back end of that engine, where the alternator belt is it looks like you pusher guys are in a "rose garden" for a power source for the pre-rotor.

Tony

[WHY]

Mike Boyette

Has Ernie gotten an info back from Niel as to whether Customs has released the engine yet?

Tony

[Friendly]

yes I like the PTO on both ends, The alternator may be heavy, I don't know yet, but if so a Kubota or John Dear Stator may be a weight improvement

[Neil Hintz]

Yes engine has arrived. Do you know it has a balance shaft, extra weight, pistons rise and fall together. I ended up only getting an old block and crank, all I need but it would be nice to know the actual weight of this engine? Turbo type and non turbo.

[WHY]

Hi Neil

Post # 97 and 98 by JEFF TIPTON have weights in them, this is for a turbo engine and the second post includes wiring and accessories, would this help? Would a "cooling radiator for the gear box be of any advantage and if so are there "bosses on the housing to tap for hoses ?

Tony

[JEFF TIPTON]

Neil does this help any?

[WHY]

Hey Mark

Howa about putting a "outboard motor alternator" on the rear of the crank. Like they do at GREAT PLAINS on the VW conversion. You could still have a pulley for a pre-rotor outside of that. It would not turn as fast as the set up on the engine now but how often do we idle an engine , that is what the "up gear" is for on the present alternator.

Tony

[Friendly]

Yes engine has arrived. Do you know it has a balance shaft, extra weight, pistons rise and fall together. I ended up only getting an old block and crank, all I need but it would be nice to know the actual weight of this engine? Turbo type and non turbo.

It has a balance shaft and it appears they do rise and fall together.

[WHY]

I think I remember some of the old English bikes had this arrangement WITHOUT the counter balance shaft , you could mix paint !

Tony

[Friendly]

http://www.polarispartshouse.net/pages/parts/viewbybrand/14/Polaris.aspx
this is a good web link for part diagrams as well. you can enlarge the pictures on the web page.

[Friendly]

Hey Mark

Howa about putting a "outboard motor alternator" on the rear of the crank. Like they do at GREAT PLAINS on the VW conversion. You could still have a pulley for a pre-rotor outside of that. It would not turn as fast as the set up on the engine now but how often do we idle an engine , that is what the "up gear" is for on the present alternator.

Tony

I would want the engine as close to the mast as I could get it. That keeps the mast shorter because you don't need rotor to prop clearence or you can keep a larger prop. But what do I know?:noidea:

[scottessex]

I would imagine that the snowmobile clutch would act like a flywheel.
This should be interesting.

[All_In]

@Scott
I think so, I'm waiting for Nicolas responses!

[WHY]

Hi Scott

This could be interesting, obviously they don't use one on the output end where the re-drive goes, (where the clutch went) , maybe that large pulley on the other end that runs the alternator is heavy ? If not , it will be interesting to see how this is done

Tony

[Brent_Brown]

the SME engines looks like they run it without a flywheel.

[WHY]

Hi Brent

I noticed that , when viewing the installation on the trike in that picture on the SME link , it looks like the engine is not a turbo and there is no evidence of a flywheel on the re- drive end.

Tony

[Brent_Brown]

That is what I was looking at too.

[WHY]

HI Brent

I wrote a brief inquiry in a E-mail to SME about the availability of there 3 gear re-drive and it's price. They said it was not available seperate at this time, and there was a lot to do to the engine otherwise. What they consider a "lot" I don't know but guess I'll be finding out soon ! I'm sure Neil will let us know.

Tony

[WHY]

I sure do like that "split gear" arrangement Neil uses on his 700 cc two stroke , wonder if that is used in all his re-drives, that is the top of the line in anti-reaonance design, a little more expensive but the best of the best.

Tony

[WHY]

Just occured to me , if you used a split gear in the middle gear on a 3 gear re-drive , you would dampen the torsional vibes in both the crankshaft gear and the prop output gear at the same time !!!!!!

Tony

[Friendly]

Tony,
When are you expecting your engine to be shipped?

[GaryMac]

Found a link to the parent company for SME, which has some more pictures and short videos of the 750 non-turbo.

http://www.swissmotorengineering.net/index.html

The non-turbo is 8800 euro, including the R2 gearbox. The turbo version and R3 gearbox are not yet available.

I hope all of you smart people out there have the non-turbo 750 installation figured out by early next year.... that's when I'll need to get my engine, if all goes to plan.

GaryMac

[All_In]

Hi Gary!!!
Thanks for posting the link!

[WHY]

Hi Mark

I was told it will be shipped in 2 weeks !!!!!!!!! -------Not really but just couldn't resist that , it was shipped either Monday or Tuesday, could be here today or tomorrow.

Tony

[All_In]

Oh no not "TWO WEEKS"!

[WHY]

Hi GaryMac

Thats a great site , appreciate the infor as always and love those videos and the sound of that motor.

Tony

[GaryMac]

Yes, the motor sounds great in the videos....

I just want to get the non-turbo package for less than 8800 euros.... I know that it can be done cheaper than that...

Depends on what type of reduction gear that Neil brings to market.

The R2 gearbox on these SME sites looks like a Rotax gearbox to me... we just need a standard adapter plate to go this route?

[WHY]

Swiss motor engineering ? is this the company that Polaris bought ???

Notice in the picture gallery that I do not see any alternator, this maybe for a photo purpose or they may have a special one built into the back end under that cover????

At any rate the prices look to be a serious competition to Rotax 912 and if you can put together one with Neils gear box it will be even less , now maybe we are getting a REAL BREAK in the overall costs of a gyro.

Tony

[WHY]

If you go to the link posted in #140 (by GaryMac) and pull up "gallery" and go to "pics" and look at the expanded picture of some of the pictures, you can see that in deed they have installed a "internal" alternator on the back of the engine where the pulley used to be, they even state in the "specs " that the alternator is "internal" (mystery solved, now what alternator are they using, I bet it is from a boat motor)

Now, it seems that most if not all of the snowmobile engines are turbo, what is using the non-turbo ??????

Tony

[Friendly]

Now, it seems that most if not all of the snowmobile engines are turbo, what is using the non-turbo ??????

Tony

ATVs but not the 4 wheelers, the type like a dune buggy, Also outboards and water craft. I think one of the Swedish cars.

[scottessex]

A motorcycle, jet ski, snowmobile, type alternator would work.

just for fun.. Here is a harley 32 amp alternator kit. (hthttp://www.demonscycle.com/32-Amp-Charging-System/Electrical-Components/-p2770237.htmltp://)

[Brent_Brown]

I posted this fact along time ago.

[GyroRon]

At any rate the prices look to be a serious competition to Rotax 912 and if you can put together one with Neils gear box it will be even less , now maybe we are getting a REAL BREAK in the overall costs of a gyro.

Tony

Did you not notice the clutch in the gearbox on the videos on that site? Neals gearboxes do not come with a clutch. It may be needed with that engine, to be able to start it without it shaking itself apart.

[WHY]

Hi Ron

yup noticed that clutch, Scott or Brent , do you have a link to that "Harley" alternator,? Can't get the one posted to respond.

Tony

[Friendly]

I posted this fact along time ago.

Brent,
You did. You, Scott, Canadan Rino, and myself have been Weber proponents since the motor came out. Its just now that the supply has been out there long enough to start making it feasible to purchase one and R&D the engine.

I wonder why the Yamaha thread is so quiet. I hope it will remain a solid option to Rotax as well.

I have requested some close up pictures of the Artic Cat monster torque motor as well.
I think I will start a new thread this afternoon that will just list the links to the web that have components to Weber engine.

[Friendly]

Did you not notice the clutch in the gearbox on the videos on that site? Neals gearboxes do not come with a clutch. It may be needed with that engine, to be able to start it without it shaking itself apart.

Was that a problem with the Yamaha?

[GyroRon]

It was on mine. I think if the jetting was messed with, to get the engine to start and accellerate to 2000 rpms immediately it would be fine without a clutch. Ernie's 4 cylinder Yamaha without a clutch seems to start and idle fine.

Yamaha has been somewhat quiet lately because all the dreamers are talking about these Weber engines lately.

Reality is this Mark.... No one is going to put together a turn key engine package with either a Yamaha or Weber for much less than 10 grand, just isn't going to happen. And most of the dreamers won't pay that much for a engine. The dreamers are looking to spend half that much, maybe even less......

The problem is the dreamers won't take it upon theirselves to buy a engine and go about converting it on their own. Which is the only way they have any chance to get into one of these engines for 5-8 grand, instead of 10 grand like the one in the link above will cost.

I have read about these engines here for years, and so far besides Larry Neal ( who doesn't post here ) I see only one other guy who has bought one of these engines.

Meanwhile, over in Camp Yamaha, there is 3 or 4 of us already flying, and a couple more in the process of installing their engines, and several more waiting for Todd to get his end of the work done and send out the parts. Quite honestly, Todd has had his life turned upside down over the last few months and has been slow to get any of his work done, so alot of people with orders in for engines have had to wait and wait and wait, and still are waiting. That is the biggest reason you haven't heard much on the yamahas, Todd hasn't been sending them out to builders, so there isn't much to say, other than from the few of us that already has ours.

Mine is took apart currently. I got 60 something hours on the engine without problems with the clutch or gearbox, then after taking it all apart to inspect and reassemble, MY clutch failed 5 hours later ( still works even broken, matter of fact it was broken the whole time I was at Bensen Days, but broken is broken and I don't like my stuff broken.... ) And after replacing the clutch shoes / springs after Bensen Days, it failed again in less than 30 minutes. The problem this time was one of the springs failed, the last time it was the shoes themselves broke where they retain the spring. Upon inspection, my clutch drive body, that attaches to the engines crank, has more wear than normal, so I am going to have it repaired and heat treated to make it last longer. Just currently waiting on Scott Waggoneer ( Airscooter here on the forum ) to come over and get the part off the gyro and fix it, been 2 weeks waiting on him just to come pull the part off the engine.... Not sure how long it will take to get it fixed and reinstalled. So meanwhile my machine is collecting cobwebs and dust.

[scottessex]

You are right Ron, it is going to be hard to get a turn key pkg for the price most of us cheap skates are willing to pay.
I think that the yamaha conversion is a great engine, and a shot in the arm to get people thinking about alternatives besides heavy car engines.
As you know, R&D takes time and money, and more time and more money.
Jan Eggenfellner has a great new Honda engine conversion out for under $10k.
The jury is still out on the yamaha 80 hp.
The Weber is attractive as I have said before because of it's size and weight are very close to the 582. and at 80HP it is not overkill for a 582 replacement.
The yamaha fills the next step, up to 120 hp. I would like to see a RAF/sparrowhawk
type gyro with the 150HP yamaha,
Anyhow, whatever people come up with, it should all be encouraged, That way we can all learn from each other, and there will be options out there so we can CHOOSE.

[All_In]

Good points Ron! We like the Yamaha too.

However Tony and I beleive that the 750 turbo will cost new about 12-15K w/ gearbox and he as purchased one used his will cost 5K with the redrive..

We beleive it mounts to a pusher much easier than a Yamaha does with about the same advantages.

I am exploring Yamaha's and Webber's for my customers that feel more secure flying a 4 stroke motor instead of a 2 stroke motor.

When I compare the cost of a 912 to a Webber at 12-15K that a great deal of savings.

When I compare Webber turbo used prices at 5-7K for 111-135HP compared to a 582's 65HP at about the same price.

My first ride will have a new Rotax 582 on it for the reasons you pointed out.

But Tony, Jeff, and I are going to try and make this engine work!

So far so good for the pushers, the tractor has some problems we see with mounting and forward CG issue also. We will see as soon as Tony's engine shows up.

I don't see a problem so far with trying to add another quality 4 stroke engine used for 7K or new 12-15K compared to a new 912!

And it's fun!!!

[Brent_Brown]

why the Yamaha thread is so quiet
Ron said it for me. for 70 to 120 HP we now have some options if you want to do the work.

[GaryMac]

Maybe I am dreaming, but it seems to me that a total cost of roughly $8,000 for a new Weber 750 non-turbo should be possible.

A new non-turbo crate motor replacement engine is $2,500, so call it $3,000 with tax and shipping. Add in $2,500 for the re-drive, $1,000 for exhaust, $500 for radiator and hoses, and another $1,000 for incidentals.... seems doable to me at the $8,000 price.

If I'm way off base here, and it is closer to $12K or more... then I will start looking more closely at the HKS 700 Turbo. It's 80 HP and costs $16,500.

Hope the Weber option works out. While I like the Yamaha option, 120 HP is way overkill for my intended application, and the 80 HP Yamaha is not high on Todd's development list.

GaryMac

[Jason O]

Hello John,

When you say "used his will cost 5K with the redrive". I wonder what redrive you will be using and how much it costs. If you are looking to Neil for a redrive, here in the US I can purchase a gearbox for a Subaru from his distributor starting at $3,600, I doubt the price will be any lower for the Weber. Will you be able to use the stock fuel injection controller or will you have to purchase a aftermarket one that is programable because you have changed the intake and exhaust from stock and now need to remap the fuel injection. How much is a custom exhaust (headers and muffler) going to cost? It would be great to see your detailed break out of all the parts and their costs that will be necessary to get this engine onto an aircraft and running properly. Dont get me wrong, I think this engine has great potential and am excited to see it come of age but quite often the cost of the engine itself is less than 1/3 of the cost of getting the complete package in the air.

Good points Ron! We like the Yamaha too.

However Tony and I beleive that the 750 turbo will cost new about 15K w/ gearbox and he as purchased one used his will cost 5K with the redrive..

We beleive it mounts to a pusher much easier than a Yamaha does with about the same advantages.

I am exploring Yamaha's and Webber's for my customers that feel more secure flying a 4 stroke motor instead of a 2 stroke motor.

When I compare the cost of a 912 to a Webber at 15K that a great deal of savings.

When I compare Webber used prices at 5-7K for 120HP compared to a 582's 65HP at about the same price.

My first ride will have a new Rotax 582 on it for the reasons you pointed out.

But Tony and I are going to try and make this engine work!

So far so good for the pushers, the tracker has some problems we see with mounting and forward CG issue also. We will see as soon as Tony's engine shows up.

I don't see a problem so far with trying to add another quality 4 stroke engine used for 7K or new 15K compared to a new 912!

And it's fun!!!

[All_In]

You are right then Jason, I thought the cost was $2,500 hundred for the redrive.
We are finding low time engines for $2,500 to $4,000 = jeff's so I thought 7K was a safe estimate.

Truth is I won't know until I try however we do have the vendors (friends) that are in the business of creating intake and exhaust manifolds for certified aircraft where the manufacture doesn't make the part anymore. They have all the equipment we need and I am willing to reprogram the chip myself for fun if necessary but bet we can hack it and use theirs.

The worst thing that can happen is I'll lean new skills and then have to resale the engine for what it cost use the redive on another engine or sell it complete.

[All_In]

Maybe I am dreaming,...

GaryMac

Gary as to dreaming there is nothing wrong with dreaming... I dreamt of owning a business and owned several, I dreamt of retiring at age 50 and retired at 39! I dreamt of getting my pilots license and ending up with a Piper dealership, I dreamt of owning a gyroplane and looks like reality will be a rotorcraft dealership and FBO.

Dreaming is a good thing, come to think about it! It always starts with a dream!

Now I am dreaming of never retiring again!!!!:peace: I love my new job!

PS:
I dreamt of being able to spell, well some dreams will never come true even with spell check when you are dyslexic. But you know, I'm still trying....

[GaryMac]

John, you are right, but as we've discussed, I'm trying to move from dream to reality with respect to gyro ownership.

It's just taking longer than I would like. That's OK too.... the journey is what it's all about, anyway.

GaryMac

[All_In]

John, you are right, but as we've discussed, I'm trying to move from dream to reality with respect to gyro ownership.

It's just taking longer than I would like. That's OK too.... the journey is what it's all about, anyway.

GaryMacGreat attitude Gary!!! It is the journey you remember. This is the hardest = most time consuming hobby I've ever tried to complete!

Without being able to lease one or even go for a sales demo ride it took me two years to learn enough to evaluate how different pilots fly the same aircraft make/model and learn how they really handle.

I could have gotten my helicoper rating in TWO WEEKS for real!!! Not gyroplanes it is almost like we are trying to keep folks out of the sport!
Good example; we both want a two place as our first ride, but have to buy a single place to build hours because we can't lease one! You got to buy two to get the one you love!

[scottessex]

The problem with buying a "crate" engine is that all the external and incidental parts are missing, usually the ignition system, charging system, fuel system, exhaust, electrical, brackets, bolts, sensors, etc.
Problem is finding enough "donor" sleds to strip the entire engine and engine control pkg.
Plus with the weber we are in serious competition for donors because of the off-road market loves these engines, and has their own conversions. wasteland performance www.ehsracing.com/builds/rzr_800_weber_ehsracing.htm

[All_In]

@Scott now that is the major problem I see with the new crate engines by the time we add the rest of the parts and labor we could be right back at Rotax prices.

So most of my customers will probably want used Yamaha's, BMW's, and Webbers.

So far we are finding them at great prices, but do not know how long that will last especially if we come up with a successful motor and the word gets out.

[WHY]

Guys I'm not totally sure about what I'm saying here so correct me if I'm wrong , but It seems like I have seen "crate" engines in "short block" , "long block" and in "hook up the gas line , radiator and go. I have for the most part considered a crate engine to be complete, less alternator and starter ??

As for programming ECU's , I bet if there is any way on earth to do it , someone in our organization will find it, I don't think there is any group flying that does more engine experimenting than us !!!!!!!

ONE THING!! I did notice about the Weber 750 is it looks like both the turbo charge and the N/A use the same end for the gear box BUT THE EXHAUST AND INTAKE ARE ON DIFFERENT SIDES, am I seeing correct ????

Tony

[WHY]

Well It's Friday afternoon and 2:20 pm and I have not heard from the freight company about my Weber, I'm starting to get the early symptoms of the 2 WEEK SYNDROME

Still looking for a link to the "Harley 32 amp alternator kit"

Tony

[WHY]

Just a little side note, sort of off topic but not really bad,

I see a lot of "guest" looking at the "Weber 750" thread at late hours and early hours of the morning and suspect that these are likely from other countries with different languages. We have some on the forum from France, Germany, Russia, Poland, and others. I know it is difficult to communicate across languages, but our interest is the SAME. We have the translate ability of the computer , although it is not the greatest, it is usuable, and we will for sure try to communicate with you. For instance this engine is not made here in the US and I feel there is so much to be contributed from our fellow gyro enthusiast around the world and we can ALL LEARN, so come and join us here on the forum even if it is a different language !!!

Tony

[scottessex]

Sorry, try this. http://www.demonscycle.com/32-Amp-Charging-System/Electrical-Components/-p2770237.html

Go to the polaris website and see if they have the microfiche online.
I know that Arctic Cat does, and you can see everything that comes with the engine.

[scottessex]

http://http://www.polarispartshouse.net/pages/parts/viewbybrand/14/Polaris.aspx (http://www.polarispartshouse.net/pages/parts/viewbybrand/14/Polaris.aspx)
The engine block and head are $1900.00 and just the turbo is $1900.00!!!

FST IQ SWITCHBACK (2007)

[WHY]

Scottessex

THAT'S IT , THAT'S IT, Thanks for that thread on the Harley alternator kit parts and it's 30 plus amps. All that is needed here is a backing plate for the coils and a crankshaft adapter for the rotor, and some kind of cover (stainless steel pot out of the kitchen) and the price is really good too.

Guys, this is what I'm talking about when I say we got TALENT right here on the forum that can come up with ideas and materials and skills to GET 'ER DONE !!!!!

Although the alternator that is use with Weber is probably close to 50 amps I think that the 30 amp is quite sufficient to our needs.

Tony

[Friendly]

Scott,
I looked it up and it 5300 dollars , for the engine assmy. If you buy through a salvage yard it is less. If you buy a brand new sled for 10k and sell the rest to a salvage, I think you will still come out ahead. The ECU and wiring will all be worked out soon, same as the carb jets have been worked out. MSD has programmable ECUs, the sand rails are doing it. We gonna make it happen. If not the Weber, then some other engine. The Arctic Cat no turbo is out this year and it is 123hp.

Ron,
I wanted to go the dreamer route several years ago, when, my good friends ask me what do you want to do. Fly or Build. So I built the KB4 put the 582 on it. Now I can fly.
So I will be working on a Build project in the near future. If we cannot get a 4 stroke engine for under $6k, then I will say, I have been there, bought the tee shirt, gave it away and don't want another one. 10 k is not going to grow this sport. It was the dreamers the Bensen appeal to and that is what is lost it PRA and why we can't grow the sport. Us dreamer's are going to bring the Bensen back in a new form.
Gary Mac,
Hang on! July is going to be an interesting Month on the WEBER Thread.

[WHY]

Hi Mark

I sure do agree with your comments, Ron stated he felt that the engine only constituted about 1/3 of the gyro costs, but that is one third that we can do something about, If Neil doesen't run into any unforseen major problems with his two stroke , I think he may set a NEW BENCH MARK for the two stroke engine in gyro's and the four stroke market is really wide open with the Yamaha , Weber , and now Artic Cat. All of these are really "next generation" advances and with the new machines like the Genasis setting a Bench mark, next year is truly going to have more twists and turns than a soap opera.

Everyone is going to be "chomping at the bit" for progress, Wahchula has it's Morons, how about us Weber guys becoming the WEBER DREAMERS !!

Tony

[Jason O]

Hello All,

FWIW from someone who has built and run 2 alternate engines. The least expensive way to get an engine is completely stock. I know this is very hard because the person who is going to do this is also the person who will try to "improve" things along the way.

"This little mod will give me 3 more hp, that little mod will add realibility, this mod is way better than the factory did it."

The least expensive (and possibly the most reliable) is to do it bone stock. Use an engine that has the HP you need without ANY tweaks. Add that spiffy 30 amp alternator (only $130), what happens with vibration breaks it appart in flight (I am not picking on you, only an example). Aftermarket ignition (might as well add the after market fuel controller for only a little more). Those stock injectors probably do not flow like they should, I can gain 4 more HP with aftermarket ones.

For the least expensive build, use a stock motor with stock ignition, stock fuel delivery and stock exhaust and if you have to, fool the engine into thinking it is still in the stock vehicle. After you get 50 or so hours on the engine, then start replacing things you think need replacing. The list will probably be way different than it was before you had any time on the engine.

My $.02 worth
Jason

[All_In]

That sounds like excellent advice to me Jason!
Thank you

[WHY]

Hi Jason

Your quite right about changing things and costs, the great thing about this engine is that there are probably going to be people running this thing so stock they will have snow treads on the landing gear and others will be making race engines and everything in between and yes putting the alternator on the engine crankshaft does subject it to more vibration and more heat , something that for sure has to be taken into consideration.

Tony

[scottessex]

Right on Jason, that is what I ended up doing with the arctic cat 2 stroke, completely stock, until I got it to quit burning up! :)

[Friendly]

Maybe I am dreaming, but it seems to me that a total cost of roughly $8,000 for a new Weber 750 non-turbo should be possible.

A new non-turbo crate motor replacement engine is $2,500, so call it $3,000 with tax and shipping. Add in $2,500 for the re-drive, $1,000 for exhaust, $500 for radiator and hoses, and another $1,000 for incidentals.... seems doable to me at the $8,000 price.

If I'm way off base here, and it is closer to $12K or more... then I will start looking more closely at the HKS 700 Turbo. It's 80 HP and costs $16,500.

Hope the Weber option works out. While I like the Yamaha option, 120 HP is way overkill for my intended application, and the 80 HP Yamaha is not high on Todd's development list.

GaryMac

GaryMac,
you may find this interesting:
Hey Mark

130hp engine kit is $10,999
100hp engine kit is $8795

These come with everything needed to remove your existing rzr engine, and put this one in. Add gas and oil, and you are running.

The kits come with, engine, mounting brackets, intake system, exhaust system, wiring harness, radiator, oil cooler, dry sump tank, clutch kit, belt, intercooler, ump filter system, etc. Everything you need to swap the existing engine out, and put this one in.


They are both turbo'd mpe 750's.


The engine itself runs between 5-6000 depending on the dollar euro rate.


Snowmobile engine is identical to the one we use. We buy the same box Polaris does.

[WHY]

Well was starting to have blurred vision and shakes (advanced symptoms of 2 WEEK syndrome) so I finally called the freight company and they told me it is enroute to Kansas City Mo and will be in Joplin Mo next Monday, am seeing much better now and the shakes are gone.

Tony

[Friendly]

Well was starting to have blurred vision and shakes (advanced symptoms of 2 WEEK syndrome) so I finally called the freight company and they told me it is enroute to Kansas City Mo and will be in Joplin Mo next Monday, am seeing much better now and the shakes are gone.

Tony

Is that your way of saying you are going to have a special Independence Day?
I hope you post pictures, What is it going on?

[WHY]

Will post Mark, It may take several tries , if I don't do it often I have to learn all over , (that memory thing you know)

Tony

[WHY]

Sorry didn't answer last part, tractor maybe??????

Tony

[GyroRon]

Scott,
I looked it up and it 5300 dollars , for the engine assmy. If you buy through a salvage yard it is less. If you buy a brand new sled for 10k and sell the rest to a salvage, I think you will still come out ahead. The ECU and wiring will all be worked out soon, same as the carb jets have been worked out. MSD has programmable ECUs, the sand rails are doing it. We gonna make it happen. If not the Weber, then some other engine. The Arctic Cat no turbo is out this year and it is 123hp.

Ron,
I wanted to go the dreamer route several years ago, when, my good friends ask me what do you want to do. Fly or Build. So I built the KB4 put the 582 on it. Now I can fly.
So I will be working on a Build project in the near future. If we cannot get a 4 stroke engine for under $6k, then I will say, I have been there, bought the tee shirt, gave it away and don't want another one. 10 k is not going to grow this sport. It was the dreamers the Bensen appeal to and that is what is lost it PRA and why we can't grow the sport. Us dreamer's are going to bring the Bensen back in a new form.
Gary Mac,
Hang on! July is going to be an interesting Month on the WEBER Thread.

Mark, I have no problem with people dreaming about gyros or engines... Just seems to have been so much talk on this engine and no one out there has done anything with it yet.

As for the prices of a gyro engine, and a comparo to the old days of Bensen and the PRA.... Did Bensen use a high tech four stroke engine that you would have to buy new or out of a wrecked snowmoible? No. He used cheap disposable unreliable surplus 2 stoke drone engines. This was the way he was able to sell a gyro at such a low price.

You could find some magic way to build the worlds best entry level gyro that would sell for 6 grand ready to fly, and have hundreds or even thousands made to sell, but that won't grow our sport. What will grow our sport is getting more CFI's and active clubs out there. Make it where when a person goes to a airport he is just as likely to see a gyro as a helicopter, make it easy for people to see gyros and learn about gyros and get a ride or training in a gyro and then the sport will grow.

And in my opinion, if people want a gyro they will pay whatever it costs to buy one. Even if that means that the engine alone was 10 grand. People these days won't blink a eye to spend hundreds of thousands on boats or RV's.... or to spend 20-50 grand on a motorcycle or jet skis.... and so on and so forth. Look at how many LSA planes that have been sold, and how many Cirus, Diamond, and the like airplanes have sold in recent years. People are out there with money to spend, 10 grand on a engine is not a big deal.


What I am learning, is the peace of mind of buying a true and proven aircraft engine ( be it a Rotax 582 verses a modified Artic cat sled engine, or a Rotax 912 verses a Yamaha or Weber sled engine ) is worth the extra money the proven and true aircraft engine costs.

[GyroRon]

Hi Mark

I sure do agree with your comments, Ron stated he felt that the engine only constituted about 1/3 of the gyro costs, but that is one third that we can do something about, If Neil doesen't run into any unforseen major problems with his two stroke , I think he may set a NEW BENCH MARK for the two stroke engine in gyro's and the four stroke market is really wide open with the Yamaha , Weber , and now Artic Cat. All of these are really "next generation" advances and with the new machines like the Genasis setting a Bench mark, next year is truly going to have more twists and turns than a soap opera.

Everyone is going to be "chomping at the bit" for progress, Wahchula has it's Morons, how about us Weber guys becoming the WEBER DREAMERS !!

Tony


Tony, did I miss something or did Neal set a price for his engine?

No offense to you meant, but this post of yours is exactly what I am talking about as far as "dreamers"

Neal has a strange engine he has put together with no price, no USA dealer or service network and if I recall he hasn't tested it with any load or even run it for more than a few minutes total.... yet your already making claims of how great this engine will be.

My bet is it will be as expensive if not more, than a Rotax 582, with parts and service having to come from NZ, which will be expensive and time consuming, and it would be years before enough flight hours and testing has proven the engine to be a solid design at all. It is just as likely this engine will become a failure instead of a success.

I am happy though to see new designs come to market and new engines to possibly choose from.

[WHY]

No Ron

You did not miss something or anything, and yes I am saying that Neil is about to set a bench mark on a new application of a old design in two stroke engines and I think Neil has PROVEN in the past by his performance and product that he is aware of design and of market and the highest of quality, and I did not say his engine would be the cheapist, I would say the it will probably be on the higher end.

As far as being a dreamer , have always be an uncurable dreamer. As far as anyone not doing anything with this Weber 750 engine, it looks to me like SME (Swiss motor engineering has been quite busy according to what is available on there website. For sure we here in the US are just starting and GOOD progress wil be slow and many will not have patience.

I do not argue that we need more CFI and active clubs but that is not where my abilities will work the best. If this is where you feel the most effort should be applied, the need is wide open to your efforts and applications go for it.

Tony

[bosca]

I agree with Tony,and that is No dreams then one has no future!!
Kym.

[Friendly]

Ron,
Post #184. I agree that many people will do as you say and spend money. How can I argue , I have 9 K in my 582 when you count everything.
Before you were scooting along on the floor, us older guys would read, Popular Mechanic and there was an ad in back that said build a flying machine in your own garage. Bensen recognized that the average Joe could not rent hangers, or build complicated aircraft and justify it with their family. You could build it without going to the Bank. Where is the blue book on gyros? Banks don't make loans for gyros like they do for other assets which they can recover their loan. People dont say, hey I would get a gyro, but there are enough CFIs, they say , I dont have the money..
If PRA ran a good gyro advertisement for clubs that had flyins or good newspaper ad it would do more good than a Carrabean Cruise. If that offends anybody, Ya'll just gonna have to forgive my bad manners
The Mac was improved quite a bit. Bensen also used the Franklin, and there are seveal Bensens with other aircraft engines that are way cheaper than 10K

[GyroRon]

Mark, are you sure it is money that is holding our sport back? The cost of buying a good modern gyro?

You figure if we can come up with a gyro that costs under 10 grand with a four stroke engine our sport will suddenly grow leaps and bounds?

I understand your a older fellow, and you remember those old ads in popular science.

I also understand back in those days, gasoline cost 50 cents a gallon ( or less ) and you could buy a brand new car for 3500$. A new home in a nice neighborhood was 30,000$

Now gas is close to 3.00$ a gallon, a new car is 25,000$, a new home in a nice neighborhood is 250,000$.

In other words stuff costs more in 2010 than it did in 1965.

Look at where you see the most gyro activity..... it is centered around areas where you have either a working CFI, and or a active club. Wauchula, Macon Georgia, Chicago, etc....

Sure, if we could build new gyros for cheap prices, that would be great. Something about gyros seems to attract the natural cheapskate as it is.... like a bug drawn to a bright light on a summer nite.

But then again, your typical cheapskate is the kind of person that will balk at the 150-170$ a hour training rates, and try to teach themselves - leading to a crappy accident rate.

They are also more prone to not wear a helmet..... not use a radio..... not do proper maintance.... ( cause all that stuff costs money ) and due to lack of training, they are likely to be the type to not follow a proper pattern at a airport or follow other FAR's, which all gives gyros a bad name.

Just food for thought

[Friendly]

Yes , Ron, your post is true, it probably fits me more than I like to admit., As far as CFIs go, I don't see how they can even stay in business as little business we send them. God bless them all.

[All_In]

I think all of you guys points above are correct.
If I had a magic lamp and three wishes they would be:
1) More gyroplane CFI's one at every airport with his own training aircraft.
2) Lease back gyroplane we could rent to build hours.
3) Bank Financing.

Mainly because there is no financing I'm now looking for cheaper engines for my customers that do not have the money.

My long term FBO plans address all of these issues as best I can but we are getting off-topic so won't explain solutions here. :focus:

Oh and just a heads up the PRA isn't spending a cent on the CRUISE only promoting friendship, learning, and training trips. A few of us really are working hard to get the money to run a good gyro advertisement for clubs that have flyins and good newspaper ad! This will work too, but no money honey!

[Friendly]

Jeff,
Have you installed, or started your engine ?
What type of motor mount are you using?
What size prop?
What redrive?

[JEFF TIPTON]

Mark; I have not installed the engine nor started it yet. I saw what I believed to be a great deal and took advantage of it.

It will eventually be placed on a single seat Dominator, but I have a couple of other projects at work to get out of the way before I really get started on it.

I have looked at several gearboxes that are out there and I am leaning toward the Rotax C box through an adapter that does not exist at this time. Still studying the possibilities.

[scottessex]

Jeff, go back through the Yamaha thread and look at the adapter that Racer made for the crank.
Then figure out how to mount a flat plate with a centric ring that fits in the gearbox and
go for it. :) Please post pics of the output end of the engine when you get a chance.

[Friendly]

Scott,
Have you looked at the pictures in Post #97. They are really good shots, especially if you double click them.

Jeff,
I know that we will get some good R&D from you. I look forward to what you make. Those machinist skills are really an asset to this thread.

[JEFF TIPTON]

Scott post 97 has pictures of the the engine including the output end. I don't think it will be to difficult to adapt the Rotax gearbox, although two decades ago it would have been a lot easier. I was working in a machine shop then.

Priority for me at this time is to fix up Cessna 172 for flight training here. To give you an idea how fast things have changed here. A customer had me prep and ferry her 172 here for annual and had to be finished by Thursday. That changed to Tuesday and was not enough time to do the job, so we arranged for a ferry permit from here to New Jersey. She had sent her Twin Comanche the week before and I was advised the night before that her Warrior, that we have been renting here, was going to New Jersey which leaves no training aircraft here. No rental is not an option here especially as people are finally starting to spend a little again.

Two friends and I had gone together to buy a Cessna 172 that was caught in the flood at Cornelia Fort six weeks ago and ferried it to Dickson and last week we sold the aircraft to Liberty Aviation which is where I work and am a co-owner. Now in the next four weeks, we need to finish cleaning the inside of the structure, rebuild the gyros, install a new radio stack, new interior and strip and paint the aircraft. This winter we will rebuild the engine. I just could not let this one go to junk yard as it is only 2100 hours since new and it is a 1975 model.

Meanwhile the Grumman that I fly has been down for two years and I need to finish the avionics in it and get it flying again.

And somewhere in there I am still trying to take some time of and go to St Louis to train with Mr. Gemminger to get a sport pilot gyro rating out of the way. So not much happening here. Glad to see the Artic Cat working out so far.

Back to topic.

[WHY]

Jeff

What do you do for a hobby?

Tony

[scottessex]

No kidding, and I thought I stayed busy!
Take your time Jeff.......one step at a time.. :)

[WHY]

Hi Mark

Were you interested in the way the adapter plate would mount or motor mounts or both/

Tony

[JEFF TIPTON]

I guess the hobby would be my mother, she had brain surgery about seven years ago, she developed a staff infection a week after the surgery, had a stroke and had to retire. I along with my sister spend a lot time taking care of her so there is not a lot of free time. I probably won't make Oshkosh this year but I am going to Shelbyville this fall. A person has to have a little time to them themselves.

[WHY]

Jeff , your like a blender in a tornado !!!!!!!!!

Tony

[JEFF TIPTON]

I don't know about that but I will see if I can get the dimensions for the mounting holes and their relationship to the crankshaft later this week.

[All_In]

Most impressive Jeff, we knew you were a good person as you always help us out here!!

We'll wait, you are more than just a little busy...

[Friendly]

Tony,
I have the dimensions of the engine already, I will put one on a single place Bensen to make the necessary parts I need.
I just want to know what all is out there, as it may be a better way than I have planned. To begin with I will use a belt drive, just so I can get some numbers for comparison. Also there plenty of high HP belt drives out there, so it is a proven system.
I am looking at a planetary also. The first thing I will do is build a motor test stand and get the operating numbers before I load it with a prop. I would like to have something to compare to.

[WHY]

Jeff / Mark

Here is an idea to consider for a mount. Back when I was doing my EA-81 conversions, I noticed there were 2 large (8 or 10 mm I think) bolts under the cylinder/heads on each side of the engine. These were only about 6 or 8 inches (it's been awhile , so don't remember to well)apart, so were a little close to use for "the only mounting points".

Part of my conversion involved cutting down the bell housing to the same shape as the engine crankcase, on the bell housing were 2 LARGE transmission mount, which, not being to smart I "cut off" and then made a mount out of steel angle that bolted to the cut down bell housing using some of the same bolts and this spread out the mounting centers to a nice distance Cto C .

Well it did not take long for some body that was a little smarter than me to realize that it was a good idea to not cut off the transmission mounts and convert them to "motor mounts" that were a hell of a lot better than my fabricated angle mount DUHH!!

Any way all this introduction is to point out that the mounting bolts on the MPE 750 appear to be on the sides for a "saddle" type mount and the bolts go into the side of the block but are a little "close " together for applying thrust to the motor as our application does, Sooooooooo , think about using the 2 bolts nearest the pulley end for part of the mount attacment and making the propellor end mounts attach to the adapter plate or make the mounts right into the plate itself ? this would spread out the C to C real nice.

Tony

[WHY]

Something that may be of interest to anyone thinking about the MPE 750 as a power plant for their aircraft, if you go to Post # 140 and click on the link in the post, and go to "gallery" and then click on "video" (it's not in english) but it's not the language that is important here it is the SOUND !!! In this short video ( # 7) the trike does a MAX take off and listen very closely to the engine, you will hear VERY LITTLE waaaa waaaa waaa, that sound is the sound of the torsional resonance which is what tears re-drives up , the louder the more sever, the quiter the better the dampening, in this case it is very very good.

Tony

[All_In]

Here is the link from 140!

http://www.swissmotorengineering.net/index.html

[ROTORTEC]

If you like to here the sound of the Weber 750 go to this page on Youtube

YouTube - Rotortec, 4 Bladed Rotor System in Flight........ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCTMnbiQF_U&feature=digest)


John

[Friendly]

John,
What size prop and how many blades?

Do you know the pitch,
re-drive ratio?

and are you using a muffler with the turbo. I have heard the turbo reduces the noise level so much you do not need a muffler.

Do you have any thrust measurements

[WHY]

All-in+

Got the engine !

Pictures maybe tomorrow

Tony

[Friendly]

It must be nice, all I got was a bill

[ROTORTEC]

Hi Mark,

we use a prop size 1800mm on a 3,9 reduction since the Engine will run up to 7300 RPM. As for the Muffler, you will need one for the Turbo Engine with a back prssure of 0,15mb.

John

[GaryMac]

Rotortec,

Do you sell just the planetary drive for the weber? If so, how much?

Thanks, GaryMac

[ROTORTEC]

Hi Gery,

yes we will, as soon we have all tests finshed. To give you some Information I have enclosed one Picture. The Redrive has to beluded in the Oel Lines coming from the Engine going back to the Oeltank for Lubrication. This can be done without Problems. The Cost will be arround 1150.--Euro The Redrive can only be used on Pusher Aircraft. For more Information and Pictures let me now.

John

[All_In]

Sweet!!! Thanks for sharing John!!!

[GaryMac]

Rotortec,

That's great news..... I will PM you my e-mail address. Any information about price, shipping, availablity, installation, etc on using this drive on the non-turbo Weber would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks, GaryMac

[WHY]

Well just a little update , been unpacking the Weber I got from "Emersons used snowmobile parts" in Diluth Minn. Emerson crated this thing like it was going to be airdropped from a C-130 , really good crating but it is taking for ever to uncrate.

Oh, by the way, was talking to Emerson earliier today telling him that all arrived well and he asked me if I would be interested in any Artic Cat 1000 cc engines, told hime no just the Weber, then later happen to think that there are several here on the forum that are interested in the Artic Cat , SOooooo if you go to the "Weber 750 Links" thread and go down to Emersons web site you may find he has what you are looking for, a super guy to deal with, # 218-624-2183. Anyway , back to topic, will try to have some pictures later tonite on the Weber 750, going to have to wait to get a engine hoist to lift it out of the box maybe tomorrow.

Tony

[All_In]

Oh that is great news Tony, call me when you have lifted it and rough fitted it to your tractor!!!

[Friendly]

Tony,
That is probably my fault, I told him I was also interested in the Artic Cat 1K engine. but I want the non turbo rated at 123 hp. I also ask him to keep an eye out for the new ACE 600. by rotax. He was suppose to send me some good pictures of the front of the artic cat. So if you talk to him remind him please. Glad you got your engine, I thought sure you would have a dozen or so pictures to temp me with by now.

[WHY]

Here are some pics of the engine as it is in the crate until I get a engine hoist.

Tony

[Friendly]

Just think you could have had Used Rotax 503 for what that cost. lol

[WHY]

The output end where the clutch mounted has a face on the crankcase with a absolutley fantastic bolt pattern for a adapter plate, or a gearbox, you could hang a tank on it.

Tony

[WHY]

Hey Mark

I quit counting a long time ago, as old as I am now the fun is worth more than the INFLATED money, get 'em while the money is worth something !!! As I said in a earlier post "I'm having fun(I think)"

Tony

[WHY]

The Yellow tag on the engine says "1196 miles" gave $2500 plus freight, Lord only knows what the end costs will be (if I ever get it finished !!!!!!!)

Tony

[WHY]

Mark, where is that Artic Cat 1000 cc engine produced , is it 4 stroke ?

Tony

[All_In]

Just think you could have had Used Rotax 503 for what that cost. lol
I thought a 503 was like only 45HP?

[Friendly]

Mark, where is that Artic Cat 1000 cc engine produced , is it 4 stroke ?

Tony

Tony,
It is same as Weber, two cylinders , 4 stroke, but more torque due to the larger engine. 177 hp turbo or 123 Natural,
Thanks for posting the pictures of you new powerplant.

[Friendly]

I thought a 503 was like only 45HP?

John,
it is , That was a bit of satire.:tape:
If the Weber will do what we think it will, he will have 3 times the 503 for the same price.

[WHY]

Hi Mark

Is that the big V twin in the ATV promo, looks somewhat bulky for our use, 950 cc ??? Artic Thunder Cat ??

Tony

[ROTORTEC]

will post another picture of the redrive as you Guy,s have asked for.

John

[scottessex]

Arctic cat TZ1 .
http://i568.photobucket.com/albums/ss122/scottessex/0742-015.jpg


Nice Redrive! Rotortec.
I would imagine the planetary drive adds some flywheel effect.

[WHY]

WELLLLLLLL, here it goes, in another post I said that when I unpacked it I would either smile or pee, got it unpacked and set on the floor, I SMILED !!!!
hooked it up to the engine hoist and backed it up to the fuselage firewall ,-------went to the restroom, came back and did a lot of studying , I SMILED,----did a lot of measuring , went to the restroom ,----I got to make a decision soon cause I can't keep this up..

Motor mount is NO PROBLEM, intake and turbo exhaust outlet are the problem, (now this is only for me because of the tractor arrangement the engine goes under a cowl). The intake may have a easy solution (turn em upside down,) or maybe not , but the turbo exhaust is going to come out on the same side as my cockpit door , this is not good, a high risk of getting burned entering and leaving cockpit.

For some reason the intake and exhaust on the non turbo model switch sides !!!!!!!!! This is great for me but I sure hate to loose that 40 to 50 hp !!!!!!

SOooooo now have to look at non-turbo or maybe even Artic Cat TZ1 1000 cc non-turbo at 123 hp --------------sorry guys the engine is already spoken for.

Tony

[WHY]

last batch of pictures.

[WHY]

In the above pictures , the dark gray casting at the back of the engine that covers the pulley comes off and on the front of the engine the rubber motor mount comes off.. The intake throttle bodies point upwards but I think I have seen pictures of them reversed and equal amount down.

You pusher guys have a no brainer as far as mounting.

Tony

[All_In]

Can you change the door to the other side? 40hp would be worth the effort?

I love the pictures, this suck for you buddy!

[WHY]

Hi John

Sorry but no go on the door , (it took 3 years to get it this far !!!!!) As I said earlier , BUT I'M HAVING FUN (I think)

Tony

[PalmPilot]

Hi Tony, looking good! I think the head is suppose to be able to be rotated 180 degrees around?
Mike

[WHY]

Hi Mike , man that would be great if that is so, have you seen any pics of the intake throttle bodies pointing down??

Tony

[PalmPilot]

Sorry, haven't seen anything with the throttle bodies turn down, but I'm rotating the head for my hovercraft project. So it better work!

[PalmPilot]

This is where it states 180 rotation.

http://www.weber-motor.com/en/products/mpe-750/advantages/index.html

Hopes this makes your day. :)

Mike

[WHY]

Hi Mike

Thanks for the quick come back , I see where it says 180 degrees rotation , but I'm not sure you can do it with the turbo on, might interfer with the thermostat/ water housing, will have to check, thanks again.

Tony

[Friendly]

Well
That was lots of nice pictures while it last. And the head is reversible even with the turbo from what I have been told. It really is a small engine sitting on the floor isn't it.
Pushers do not have any more advantage for mounting than the tractors. After all the engine mounted from the front and rear face so what ever has to be done for the tractor,also has to be done for the pusher.
As I see it , the hardest part is making sure what ever re-drive is used, the large deep bosses in the block are still available for the mounts. Loosing that big cast alum. belt cover off the rear out to help a little with the weight.
So who is the new Weber person?

[Friendly]

will post another picture of the redrive as you Guy,s have asked for.

John

John It looks as though the input is splined and the cankshaft is tapered up to a 1 1/2 in round shoulder which has a keyway in it. Do you connect the plantary drive to the crankshaft or do you use a clutch or Lovejoy coupling?

[JEFF TIPTON]

According to this article, http://www.mtukrc.org/download/mtu/mtu_ic_design_paper_2009.pdf, rotating the head requires a different camshaft and coolant rail. May not be applicable to your application.

[WHY]

Mike, is the weber on your hover craft a turbo model ????? I noticed on the non turbo model on the SME site that the exhaust pipes "arched out" quite a bit before the turned down. This cleared the thermostate housing and tube . keep me posted on your efforts, and yes got your E-mail and #. Will keep in touch .

Tony

[All_In]

Well
...
Pushers do not have any more advantage for mounting than the tractors. After all the engine mounted from the front and rear face so what ever has to be done for the tractor,also has to be done for the pusher.
....
Talked to Tony on the phone and it's not that it is not easy to mount on the tractor. It is but exhaust comes out on the wrong side by the door.
On a pusher it is in back and there is no cowling or door to get in the way.

At least that what it looks like to Tony and I!

[WHY]

Hey Mike

Notice Jeff's comment in post # 244 , read the article (nice) and it looks like ANY rotation of the head is going to require the new cam and coolant rails !!!

Tony

[PalmPilot]

Yes it is a turbo motor... Ya, just read that to, not a happy camper! was going by what was stated in the engine info... Even though mine is going in a pusher position, exhaust needs to be on the starboard side and intake on port. Just more details to work out.
Mike

[ROTORTEC]

Hi Tony,

I have enclosed a picture showing a setup we have made and tested, showing
the turbo changed arround and the Rotax like Frame installed.

John

[WHY]

HI John

Really nice set up , thanks for the picture, did you fabricate the exhaust manifold for the turbo, what did you do about the throttle body intakes, I do not see the throttle bodies pointing up , really nice work on the firewall mount too.

Tony

[Friendly]

John
Nice motor mount, How much weight did you save , swaping out the castiron exaust manifold and removing the cast alum belt cover off the end of the engine?
Also see post #243