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WHY
07-12-2011, 06:44 PM
Has anyone got one of Neil's "universal " gearbox that uses the 4 bolt damper, that could give me the part number and who makes it so I can order one here in the states and start my 6 bolt flange type flywheel .

Tony

Friendly
07-12-2011, 07:03 PM
Tony,
Maybe Albert on the PSRU thread knows

WHY
07-12-2011, 09:21 PM
Hi Mark

:) that is a possibility, but someone on the forum (I can't remember who ) has one of Neil's universal gearbox. I can't remember if they had the clutch or the damper.

Tony

1946
07-12-2011, 09:28 PM
Tony,
Maybe Albert on the PSRU thread knows

My Yo-Yo was heavy, nice and steady, my brother’s yo-yo instead, was light and erratic, yo-yo’s and flywheels have a lot in common. Don’t know much about the Weber engines other to say the Weber engine on the Polaris has a tapered crankshaft while the Weber MPE has flange. One would assume the tapered crank is to take the clutch acting as a flywheel and the flanged crank comes with a flywheel, both of an unknown specifications, weight, mass on so on. Trying to adapt a PRSU to any engine void of a clutch or flywheel not knowing the amount of energy required for the desired degree of smoothening must be found and the (mass) moment of inertia needed to absorb that energy determined, without this data ,one would say calls for problems even at tuning the engine. One must not forget, engines have load patterns that cause the torque time function to vary over the cycle.

Thanks
Albert

1946
07-12-2011, 10:24 PM
Hi Mark

:) that is a possibility, but someone on the forum (I can't remember who ) has one of Neil's universal gearbox. I can't remember if they had the clutch or the damper.

Tony

It has a Centaflex (4 bolt) rubber dampener.

http://www.centa.info/?show=products&c=us&nr=39

Thanks
Albert

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/6018/subaruairl3hd.jpg

WHY
07-13-2011, 06:07 PM
Thanks to all, I got the info needed on the damper so I can start on the flywheel.

Tony

scottessex
07-14-2011, 01:53 AM
the damper looks really similar to the driveshaft joints that BMW and Mercedes use on their vehicles....just something to check.
http://www.importecwarehouse.com/Mercedes-Front-Flex-Disc-Coupling-Joint-Front-W201-p/mb2024101215.htm

WHY
07-14-2011, 03:40 AM
Hi Scott

It is a Centaflex as Albert said, will have all the details maybe later today from Centaflex (price)

Tony

Brent_Brown
07-14-2011, 06:11 AM
my gearbox from airtrike has the BMW damper it looks like a bigger rotax C box one

1946
07-14-2011, 12:09 PM
Hi Scott

It is a Centaflex as Albert said, will have all the details maybe later today from Centaflex (price)

Tony

If you donít have the Neilís box, unless your machine a special and precise shaft, the Centaflex coupling would be rather useless, it has 8 location pins.

Thanks
Albert

brlcla
07-14-2011, 03:32 PM
might be sending an engine to new zealand.... stay tuned!!!

WHY
07-15-2011, 04:00 PM
Well got most of the Microsquirt EFI system wired up, now to check for wiring errors and do a initial program set up. Next item is to design my oil tank, that should keep me occupied for a while. Once the oil system is set up I can drop the cooling hoses in a 30 gallon barrel of water and do short run ups.

Tony

ROTORTEC
07-16-2011, 04:12 AM
We have found the best setup in High and Location on the Weber is as shown
In the Picture. We have made the needed Oil and Water hoses to fit the best way. Weber will not supply any of them, so we had to do it ourselves.

John

Friendly
07-16-2011, 10:46 AM
Professionally done as always John.:first:
I wished you posted more!

WHY
07-16-2011, 11:16 AM
Hi John

Ditto, what Mark said, your pictures are ALWAYS so informative. Since I am using my engine in a very tight tractor cowling I will have to make my tank system, which will take some special work to make it do what the Weber tank does with the venting.

Tony

ROTORTEC
07-16-2011, 11:22 AM
Hi Toni,

Venting goes into the Air filter Box, this is on the Turbo Version!! If you need a Picture let me know and I will supply one for you

John

WHY
07-16-2011, 11:26 AM
John

In your picture, you have a blue colored line and a black colored line, the black colored line has a fitting on the engine with red marking on it where do these lines go, are they both high pressure or low pressure.

Tony

ROTORTEC
07-16-2011, 11:35 AM
Toni,

the blue line is the return line from the Turbo Charger. The Black Hose is the Suction line
from the Oil Tank to the Engine Pressure Pump. (Inside Engine)with the (Red Marking) Both Lines are Low Pressure But have to be OIl and Heat resistend..

John

WHY
07-16-2011, 11:36 AM
Thanks for the info

Tony

WHY
07-16-2011, 11:44 AM
John , are you running the "discharged" oil from the engine throught any type of a oil cooler before it goe into the tank ??

Tony

ROTORTEC
07-16-2011, 12:00 PM
Yes Toni, we run it to the Cooler (Laminowa) before we discharge into the Oil Tank. This one is behind the Oil Tank under the Engine

John

WHY
07-16-2011, 12:04 PM
Thanks again

Tony

ROTORTEC
07-16-2011, 12:05 PM
Left Side of Engine showing OIL Tank and Air Intake for the Turbo

John

WHY
07-19-2011, 03:20 PM
ROTORTEC

Hi John, In post #1263, the oil line from the tank to the block has a "banjo bolt" fitting. This will for sure be a Metric fitting, do you have a part number and brand for that fitting ?? I like it much better that the regular straight fitting.

Tony

ROTORTEC
07-20-2011, 08:03 AM
Hi Tony,

this Parts are called "Hohlschraube" M18 x 1,5 mm I have added a link to E.bay you may look it up there. You can get this in double Length if you like. If you have problems to order it let me know I will send you some.

John

http://cgi.ebay.de/Hohlschraube-M18-x-1-5-mm-rallye-motorsport-/120735827101?pt=Teile_ohne_Strassenzulassung&hash=item1c1c6a849d#ht_1016wt_905

WHY
07-20-2011, 03:23 PM
Hi John

Thanks ever so much for that info. I will try locally now that I have demensions. If I have a problem I will contact you

Thanks again

Tony

JEFF TIPTON
07-20-2011, 03:30 PM
One source for the banjo bolt.

http://www.intengineering.com/18MM-x-150-Banjo-Bolt-p4748056.html

WHY
07-20-2011, 05:55 PM
Hey Jeff

Thanks for the site, looks like they have the banjo as well, will get both. I was concerned about the amount of flow thru a banjo bolt for aawhile but guess it is ok since they use it on turbos. Got a question, the site has aluminum washers and copper washers, do you think I should use aluminum instead of copper since this is an aluminum block , copper could cause electrolysis ??

Tony

JEFF TIPTON
07-20-2011, 06:13 PM
I would not think electrolysis would be much of an issue. Both Lycoming and Continental use AN900 series washers which are annular copper-asbestos gaskets.

Lycoming uses aluminum gaskets under the Vernatherm valves.

I would probably use the aluminum ones as they would probably torque better.

WHY
07-20-2011, 06:20 PM
Right, will do

Tony

WHY
07-23-2011, 06:47 PM
Hi Mark

Well, got a frustrating story to tell. Started to do the programming on the ECU tonite, and fortunately had my computer whiz neighboor doing the job, and we spent TWO HOURS FIGHTING THE PROGRAM AND COULD NOT EVEN GET THE FIRST MOVE ( burn to Microsquirt ECU) to work and finally found the connector jack on the ECU cable where you plug in the computer was bad. Fortunately I had the other 8 ft cable I purchased to make the color coded extentions with, so I robbed the jack from it and at least got the programming started but not finished. Nothing like a new piece of equipment to really send you on a wild goose chase.

Tony

Friendly
07-23-2011, 09:22 PM
Flashing the ECU was the hardest part for me as well. The second time I did it I download everything from DIY webpage and it was easier.
I now have to reflash again for the Megasquirt Extra. lol
I hope it goes well. Thats why I posted all of my steps on the other thread.

There was an article on MS2 Extra and it showed a metal heat sink added to the existing heatsink #40 screws, but I can not find it anywhere I look lately. I need to go ahead and start the MS2 Extra conversion. I have the new BIP323s for the coil drivers. I think the instructions are a bit vague on which pins are the outputs for the V3.0 board.

ROTORTEC
07-24-2011, 12:59 AM
Hi Tony and Mark,

Why you are not using the Walbro ECU supplied with the Engine from Weber.
You can get this pre Programmed for 110, 120, 135, 143 HP and we never found any Problem with this. Plug and Play and all Engines start on the first shot.

John

WHY
07-24-2011, 03:44 AM
Hi John

I don't mind the challange of building and matching the new computer since I worked in two way radio business for 25 years, but the main reason is in the pictures in post # 565 and # 566

Tony

StanFoster
07-24-2011, 03:54 AM
Tony- I am totally incapable of doing what you are doing. You go design and make computer controls like I go put in an on off switch. I don't have a dog in this race, but still shake my head at people that understand stuff I haven't a clue about. Kind of like being retarded, and knowing it! Stan

ROTORTEC
07-24-2011, 05:15 AM
I don't mind the challange of building and matching the new computer since I worked in two way radio business for 25 years, but the main reason is in the pictures in post # 565 and # 566


Yes Toni I can see the problem now.. We had to get a new Cable Tree manufactured, the one supplied has been too long and to heavy, but Weber supplied us with the drawings and they gave us the o.k. for the subcontractor to produce this extra Version for us.. So now we have the right size and only the Plugs we need !

John

WHY
07-24-2011, 09:27 AM
John
The biggest problem with doing this ECU has been to find all of the connectors for the engine. From Weber direct, they were prohibitive in cost, but about 3 months of searching and ALL connectors and there contact pins have been found,the connectors and pins usually come seperate, It takes 4 supply sources.

My engine is normally aspirated, but the ECU will handle turbo as well and up to a 550 hp V-8, depending on how you program it.

Tony

ROTORTEC
07-24-2011, 10:00 AM
Hi Tony,

if you need, we can give you the name of the company manufacturing the Plugs. Find enclosed the Electric Layout, you may have this but this is good for all the other once as well.

John

WHY
07-24-2011, 11:17 AM
Hi John

The name of your supply company for the plugs would sure be of value,especially to anyone wanting to do the same thing I did.

Thanks Tony

Friendly
07-24-2011, 11:26 AM
Hi Tony and Mark,

Why you are not using the Walbro ECU supplied with the Engine from Weber.
You can get this pre Programmed for 110, 120, 135, 143 HP and we never found any Problem with this. Plug and Play and all Engines start on the first shot.

John

Hello John,
The snowmobile engine uses the Bosch 7.4 Motronic ECU. When I purchased my engine. I purchased most of the Wiring harness and the ECU.
I was able to start the engine after much reading and by passing so many of the snowmobile safety features that are programmed into the ECU.

I then tested the engine and after a short crow hop, I could not get more than about 5500, rpm with the engine surging.

So I purchased a Megasquirt ECU. I want to implement the flywheel as you suggested. So I figured I had some time to do both while the engine was off the gyro.

As I began building the Megasquirt, I learned more and more about the Weber and how it's electronics were designed to work with the engine.

The cost was the major factor for me choosing a Megasquirt ECU and the ability to actually read the engine diagnosis without purchasing more and more equipment and software. The tuner is free download and can run off of the computer.

The flip side of all of this is as you say, the Walbro is already set up for the Weber engine. I did not know if it had all of the safety features wired into it as the snowmobile engine has. I am not familiar with Snowmobiles or Watercraft.

I would like to ask you. Are you using the stepper motor for the Idle Air control or are you using a Pulse type , Idle Air control

Your diagram looks like it is a two wire pulse valve. , my engine has a 4 wire stepper motor. If yours is a two wire, it will make my application a lot easier. Also, I would think Tony would like to use a pulse type valve as that is what his ECU is setup to operate.

Mine will run the stepper motor, but I have to add some driver Transistors to run sequential ignition.

WHY
07-24-2011, 11:40 AM
Stan

I can't really take that much credit for "building the ECU setup". I bought the Microsquirt ECU already assembled ($400),plus extra cable of $85. No construction except attaching the correct plugs for your engine of choice. The wiring and soldering of plugs and connectors for me is a fluff because to the years in the two-way radio business and as a amateur radio operator/builder. But when it comes to programming that computer, I'm right there with you on putting in a light switch !! Now my neighboor is a computer whiz when it somes to soft ware and some computer building, but trouble shooting is "find which card is bad and change it out" So between the two of us it only took about 2 hours to find a bad new "mini jack" connector where the computer plugged into the ECU.

I know "All-IN" said he would be glad to do the programming when we were ready and I could not understand how he was going to do this without the engine until now. After reading Mark Carmouche's post on his Megasquirt (same program with minor changes) and finally learning what was needed to get the program started ( finding the VERY FIRST STEP OF "BURN TO ECU") I can now see that once you get the "burn to ECU" done it's just "follow the bouncing ball" and in about 15 minutes you have the "basic parameters" finished and the engine is ready to start and run. You do not even need the engine (I don't think)to do the basic set up, just the ECU. THEN, you do the final tweaking of the settings for max performance, so you really do 2 runs at it. It will be some time before I am ready to do the final tweaking.

Tony

Friendly
07-24-2011, 12:04 PM
Tony,
You will have to verify that the ignition timing of your software agrees with the mechanical timing of the engine. So if you are building a flywheel. it would be a good ideal to have a timing mark scribed on the edge where you could see it with a timing light. You can make a slot in your bellhousing to see the mark and add some reference degrees. Remember to place it where it will not put you in danger of the prop.

I will have one on the backside of the bellhousing. Good luck and hope to hear that Weber soon.

WHY
07-24-2011, 12:10 PM
Hey Mark

How goes ?? Any more done on your adapter ?? Your leaving the backside of your adapter open,right ??

Tony

ROTORTEC
07-24-2011, 12:37 PM
Sound of the Weber for you Guys

‪05 07 2011 4‬‏ - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=004gNiK9Nio)

John

Friendly
07-24-2011, 12:54 PM
Thanks John,
I needed to hear that again!!
Can you tell me which Idle Air Control valve you are using?

Friendly
07-24-2011, 12:56 PM
Hey Mark

How goes ?? Any more done on your adapter ?? Your leaving the backside of your adapter open,right ??

Tony

Yes, Tony,
But I may put a very thin metal shield on it just to keep dirt dobblers out.

ROTORTEC
07-24-2011, 01:04 PM
Can you tell me which Idle Air Control valve you are using?


Hi Mark,

I believe we not using one, it is not needed. But I will check with my People tomorrow and let you guys know

John

WHY
07-24-2011, 01:08 PM
John

you are a major help to us guys , thanks so much

Tony

WHY
07-24-2011, 01:19 PM
Hi John

That's what I thought, those 2 small bolts (one i think is a 6 and the other maybe an 8 ) were sort of a headache as far as clearing the flywheel on the flange mount crankshaft and I decided that they sure were not going to "hold much" and those 4 LARGE bolts were more than enough so I decided to leave them out and that sure eliminated a lot of headache with my flywheel.

As far as my idle arrangement -----none. Think about it, how do you start a standard aircraft engine, prime it, set mixture to rich start it. Let it run to warm up and set mixture to desired setting. On our EFI system the ECU sees a cold engine and sets injectors to "rich", you turn on the ignition and the pump pressurizes the lines for 2 seconds and then shut off till it sees "engine cranking" and the engine starts and runs rich until the coolant sensor sees warm and then the ECU sets the injectors to normal and you are off ??

Tony

WHY
07-24-2011, 01:21 PM
Mark

Good point on the shield, a mud dobbers nest could sure make a vibration at 7000 (really shake up that mud dobber too)

Tony

WHY
07-24-2011, 01:28 PM
Mark

What are you using for a fuse block, the original harness fuse block. By accident, I found the website and part numbers for the original "Weber" fuse block as used in the harness, (it's made by Delphi). It comes in 3 different parts, (block, base, cover, and there are no pins in the block) which is ok because I stripped mine and put in new pins and reprogramed it. Works great. Also no relays but you would have those plus a few spares.

Tony

WHY
07-25-2011, 04:59 PM
Hi Mark

You mentioned in post # 1292 about the timing issue, I have looked at all of the material I have and cannot seem to find a timing curve or even a single max advance number for the Weber. Do you or Jeff Tipton or any one else have any figures on this. Acurve wuld be nice but idle and max will work.

Tony

Friendly
07-25-2011, 06:55 PM
Mark

What are you using for a fuse block, the original harness fuse block. By accident, I found the website and part numbers for the original "Weber" fuse block as used in the harness, (it's made by Delphi). It comes in 3 different parts, (block, base, cover, and there are no pins in the block) which is ok because I stripped mine and put in new pins and reprogramed it. Works great. Also no relays but you would have those plus a few spares.

Tony

You are going to have to add all of those electrical items to our Links Page so we don't forget them.
I have the relay from DIY, and the Fuse Box. I hated to cut up the Polaris Harness in case I needed to start the Weber again. I did cut it up to trace some of the circuits back to the Hall and VR sensors.

I have not started the rewire, because I have not made the changes to the Megasquirt. The Polaris relay and fuse box is nice and small. The DIY is really large. I think the Polaris will make a better looking wiring setup. Many of the pins will change when I go to the MS2 Extra , so I really have not decided. lol

GaryMac
07-25-2011, 07:09 PM
Hey, Mark, and everyone else working on getting the weber figured out.

I'm very interested in your progress.... this is one of my favorite threads... can't wait to see the final solutions that the various parties figure out.

Someday in the future I hope to convert my Genesis to a weber, but I need smart guys like you to lay the ground work. I'd love to have a 77 HP fuel injected solution driving my bird someday.

Keep up the good work!!

Friendly
07-25-2011, 07:19 PM
Hi Mark

You mentioned in post # 1292 about the timing issue, I have looked at all of the material I have and cannot seem to find a timing curve or even a single max advance number for the Weber. Do you or Jeff Tipton or any one else have any figures on this. Acurve wuld be nice but idle and max will work.

Tony

The timing will be in your ignition tables or maps. For start up I would use a maximun of about 10 degrees, When we used the old centrifical advance we usually brought in the full advance at about 3600 RPM. You will have a set of ignition maps based on RPM and also the ECU can set a hard RPM limit and a Soft RPM limit where the engine begins to retard timing to prevent over reving. Thats not big deal as it sounds. So I won't get into it at this time.
For you to begin you need a small amount of advance and you will gradually add a few degrees and see if your engine likes it or not.

The most important thing to do is to verify that the Actual timing = the Software timing. That is why you need a timing mark on a pulley or flywheel.

Find your TDC with a dial indicator on #1 and setup your scribe on your flywheel to read 0.

you will program your software to read 10* advance at what ever rpm you are going to begin. When you crank your engine up, you will need a timing light with the built in advance, you will advance it 10 degrees and it will show your timing on TDC. Now you know that the crank angle degrees is correct for your engine. If not you will have to adj. the crank angle plus or minus a degree until the timing matches. It will make a lot more since when you actually are doing it.

I should start back on mine pretty soon. If so I will try to make a video so it will be easier to understand.

Friendly
07-25-2011, 07:40 PM
Hey, Mark, and everyone else working on getting the weber figured out.

I'm very interested in your progress.... this is one of my favorite threads... can't wait to see the final solutions that the various parties figure out.

Someday in the future I hope to convert my Genesis to a weber, but I need smart guys like you to lay the ground work. I'd love to have a 77 HP fuel injected solution driving my bird someday.

Keep up the good work!!

Gary,
thank you for the kind words, I hope I can live up to your expectations. We will have it figured out, just takes time, money and commitment.
Gary,
there is another ECU that I think would work well on the Weber. It cost under 1000 dollars with every thing including the turner software. It may be a lot easier than the route Tony and I are going, Especially when you consider the time involved. It is in water tight connection and has data logging built in up to 1 meg.
Sequential injection, and Coil on plugs. , Triggering is VR wheel + cam sync same as the Weber.
www.pe-ltd.com
Interesting is that it does not use an O2 sensor. It uses the engine load, defined by MAP and TPS with RPM. It runs 26x26 tables for fuel and 16x16 for ignition.

I'm sure if we can get some real hours on the Weber's they will fill a good need for Gyros in the 75 to 80 hp range. I personally think the 80 hp will be a better engine when you consider all of the turbo stuff that is added increasing drag and weight.

I also have my eye out for a Rotax 60hp 600ACE . It maybe just what we need on the light single place gyros , weight only 90 lbs , and very fuel efficient.

I have enjoyed the Genesis build threads as well.

WHY
07-25-2011, 08:02 PM
Hi Gary and Mark

Well will try to find my "note scratches" and come up with the info on that fuse/relay block. It gives you 4 fuses and 4 relays, the relays are all the same "mini" style 35 amp. there is a unusual feature to the set up. The fuses are fed by "buss type" contact pins on one side of the fuse and then single out put on the other side of the fuse which ends up causing you to just about have to run your wiring to the fuses first and then to the relays. That is why I had to put seperate inline fuses right at the injectors for seperate fusing, but ---no big deal. I do not use the designed mounting system for the fuse block but rather cut it off and then pop riveted the "base block" to a aluminum plate that I could mount where every I wanted .

I think I can safely say now that I have found all of the contact pin sources and the connector sources I could build the next harness for maybe .50 cents to even .35 cents on the dollar compared to what I have in this one. The main thing I would also do when ordering the next Microsquirt is ask if I could pay a "extra" charge and get the 8 foot cable with out taking the original 30 inch cable and the paying $85 for the 8 foot one. My arrangement could not be done with the 30 inch that comes with it. At any rate, you can expect to pay around $50 for connectors and contact pins, a little more if you are running turbo. This does not include a wideband O2 sensor. Don't know what these fuse blocks will costs if you buy them new. Would also use the Walbro inline pump that was finally found by Mark (I think) # GLS-414 I think. The newest version of the Microsquirt due out in August, will be around $ 400, plus the above mentioned long cable. DIYAutotune are very helpful so I think they would make you a deal.

Mark is getting close to trial testing an adapter for a Rotax gear box and Neil may have his gear box in the air soon and all of this probably by the end of summer. I should have all the "T's" crossed and the "I's" dotted on the Microsquirt wiring by the same time so maybe we will have a "system for trial". Mark has made a saddle mount for his engine and I have made a firewall mount for mine, I can tell you the firewall mount it work intensive and costly but that is what I had to do for a tractor.

The "BIG" item that I would recommend you keep you eyes open for would be the engine. My tractor arrangement required a very special version of the Weber, a off-road
version that has the head reversed to put the exhaust down the left side and also use a flanged crankshaft plus being a normally aspirated engine. This will essentially be a "REDLINE " engine. Randy out at Watcon in Bremerton WA gets a "few" of these a year for rebuild, so if you are interested in this version of the engine and find one better get it.

Tony

WHY
07-25-2011, 08:44 PM
I would be a little more aprahensive about the outcome of these experiments if I was the "original" experimenter, but fortunatley I am not. These have been successfully already done in Europe.

Tony

WHY
07-25-2011, 09:05 PM
ROTORTEC

John, in post #1263 where you show the banjo fitting, do you use a double length bolt and a spacer underneath the banjo to clear that casting web near by ?? If so I may contact you about the double length bolt, have not found it here in USA so far.

Tony

ROTORTEC
07-25-2011, 10:50 PM
Yes Toni, It is called "Doppelhohlschraube 18 x 1,5mm" enclosed the Link for the Item

http://www.tecparts.com/tecparts/product/tecpartscatalog/SH352040/detail.jsf?fh_location=%2F%2Fsh305649%2Fde_DE%2Fca tegories%3C%7Bsh305649_sh305650%7D%2Fcategories%3C %7Bsh305649_sh305650_sh352778%7D%2Fcategories%3C%7 Bsh305649_sh305650_sh352778_sh352795%7D

If you have problems getting it let me know we will send you some..

John

WHY
07-26-2011, 10:15 AM
Mark and Jeff

If I make an order up for the double length banjo bolts from Germany (from ROTORTEC) do any of you guys want one or two also ?? Am not finding them here. I got the order from Intengineering, but they do not carry the double length bolt.

Tony

JEFF TIPTON
07-26-2011, 11:48 AM
Tony I am not sure if I will need them, but put in for two of them on your order.

WHY
07-26-2011, 01:35 PM
Hi Jeff

Ok, If I don't find a source local will make up a order in a few days.

Tony

WHY
07-26-2011, 03:39 PM
ROTORTEC

John, would these bolts have to come through US Customs and be picked up at a Customs office ?? That could be 80 to 90 miles from me. Would there be a US branch of the company that sells these bolts?? Looks like I could be ordering as many a 10 bolts because some other people are interested.

Tony

brlcla
07-26-2011, 04:56 PM
Why order from Germany... an M18x1.5 Banjo bolt is easily found in the US as it is a standard size....

WHY
07-26-2011, 05:20 PM
Hi Michael

Right, got the standard banjo bolt, but it turns out that John is using a "double length" with a spacer to clear that casting web next to the bolt, and the double lengnt bolt is not showing up very easy on my searches.

Tony

Friendly
07-26-2011, 06:28 PM
Hi Michael

Right, got the standard banjo bolt, but it turns out that John is using a "double length" with a spacer to clear that casting web next to the bolt, and the double lengnt bolt is not showing up very easy on my searches.

Tony

M18 did not show up on my search at all. lol
I think the banjo bolts will help with the plumbing to get your hose angles in a better configuration.
Tony , thanks for considering me on the order, but I am working on something a little bit different.

WHY
07-26-2011, 06:40 PM
Right Mark, thanks for responding .

Tony

JEFF TIPTON
07-26-2011, 06:49 PM
Tony this site page 224! Let me know if this works.

http://www.summersrubber.com/userfiles/file/summers99.pdf

WHY
07-26-2011, 07:21 PM
HEY JEFF!!!!!

YOU WIND THE QEWPIE DOLL !!!! They got it, will order some monday, everyone else take note, you can get the double length banjo bolt from this supplier, so I will not be placing a overseas order.. THANKS AGAIN JEFF GOTTA LOVE THIS FORUM :) :) :)

Tony

WHY
07-26-2011, 08:58 PM
For any that might be interested here is the info on the nice little fuse block by Delphi. You can get it at www.mouser.com , here are the part numbers and appx costs

12084910 base 4.40
12110594 block 6.70
12110595 lock 1.00
12110602 cover 5.50

relays can be purchased from Mouser also, will get part # asap and contact pins also relays are around $5 each (4) need to look up contact pin numbers.

Tony

WHY
07-27-2011, 12:50 PM
Mark and Jeff

Just got my hands on a progressive timing chart for the Weber MPE-750, it is a VERY UNUSUAL chart to say the least. If you do not have one let me know and I will send you a copy by snail mail.

Tony

JEFF TIPTON
07-27-2011, 02:47 PM
If you want when I receive a copy I will convert it to PDF.

WHY
07-27-2011, 03:54 PM
Will send you a copy, PM me your address, not sure I got it

Tony

Friendly
07-27-2011, 06:53 PM
Tony ,
any information is good to have. I looked into the Weber timing in the Manuel, It looked to me like they were using 8 degrees to start and 9 degrees at idle.

I started on the Megasquirt again. I made a heat sink for the new coil igniter's and made some of the jumper changes. There are a few questions, I have on the tach select when using the Hall as the second trigger. So I need to read some more.

I also looked into the Wide O2 sensor. The Weber uses a Bosch LSU 4.2 sensor which is one of the most recent designs by Bosch. It is commonly call a 7200 series . They make an LSU 4.9 that is suppose to be very accurate for reading lean conditions. It may be for Diesels

JEFF TIPTON
07-28-2011, 06:37 AM
Jeff tipton
711 west third street
dickson, tn 37055

WHY
07-28-2011, 04:08 PM
Hi Jeff

Contacted the Web site in post #1319 , really nice guy to work with , but, they no longer have the double length. The vendor quit making them, looks like maybe AeroQuip may have them will no later. The guy at the Summers web site found a source but gave 8 to 10 weeks and about $23 each with minimum of 6

Tony

WHY
07-29-2011, 11:10 AM
WELL FINALLY !!!

Found those double length banjo bolts (18mm x 1.5) here in the USA !! They come from Hydraulic Supply Co. (www.hydraulic-supply.com) 1-800-507-9651 $15 each plus freight.

Tony

PS manufactured by EATON-AEROQUIP

JEFF TIPTON
07-30-2011, 07:04 AM
Now that is just not fair. You found them before me.

WHY
07-30-2011, 08:09 PM
Hey Mark

On your engine does the scavaged oil output (at the bottom of the pan) face towaard the alternaator end or the PTO end? mine faces toward the PTO end and I want it to face toward the alternator, was going to cut and weld but was looking at a marine version and it looks like they face toward the alternator end.. Will make for a cleaner hose set up if it points toward the aternator. If Randy has any, do you want me to tell him to hold one for you ??

Tony

WHY
08-03-2011, 09:40 PM
Mark

Got a little confirmation from Randy at Watcon on the basic timing numbers on the Weber, 9 to 10 degrees for start up and max of 32 to 34 degrees. Looks like "pull back" could come in around 6500 to 6800. This supercedes the charts that I got and was going to mail out, so no mail outs, will vary between NA and turbo on the pull back.

Tony

Friendly
08-04-2011, 02:20 PM
Tony,
I thought I posted last night, I must be sleeping on the key board.
My oil out put from the pan is on the PTO end and it angles slightly back and upward. This has it pointing at the outlet that is in the block on the PTO end.

9 to 10 degrees sounds fine for starting and 34 degrees on the max is OK as well. I think you would get a few more degrees on the max but we don't want things to go ping ping.
You will probably get more HP out of the Microsquirt than the stock factory unit. That may not be better since we want to detune the engine to make it more reliable.

I finished the Coil Driver on my Megasquirt and erased the firmware for Megasquirt 2 from the Eprom. But when I tried to download the new firmware for Megasquirt2 Extra, it is timing out and not writing the full program to my chip. So I need to get out my Digital Tester and start checking my modifications again.

Once I have the Extra firmware loaded, I will set it up for the Weber and see if I can get the motor running on it. .The conversion was difficult because all the examples I had were for the 4 cylinder Wasted Spark instead of the two sequential. Finally I figured out what they were doing, it was easy as eating pie. I also removed the internal map sensor and ordered a dual 4bar sensor for the turbo.

WHY
08-04-2011, 02:31 PM
HI Mark

Looking foward to your success on the Megasquirt programming. As far as you oil output from the pan, mine is the same but I saw the outlet that was on the marine engine was pointed back at the alternator end and decided to get one ( used) from Randy since I was not sure how or where I am going to install the oil cooler(nice to have options :) )

No work going on here, to damm hot, running around 106 in the day and at 10: pm it's high 90's

Tony

Friendly
08-04-2011, 08:53 PM
HI Mark

Looking foward to your success on the Megasquirt programming. As far as you oil output from the pan, mine is the same but I saw the outlet that was on the marine engine was pointed back at the alternator end and decided to get one ( used) from Randy since I was not sure how or where I am going to install the oil cooler(nice to have options :) )

No work going on here, to damm hot, running around 106 in the day and at 10: pm it's high 90's

Tony

Yes, I don't even want go out to the shop its so hot.
I found out the the Megasquirt Down-loader program does not work with the EXTRA firmware. There is an alternative method that loads from a DOS window. I followed the Prompts and presto, it is LOADED:whoo:
So I may just get to fire that Weber up again in the near future. I will go back to the Megasquirt Thread and post the changes that I made when I am sure the Modifications work. I forgot, I need to order a Wide-band O2 sensor with the controller. So another week for it to come in.:phone:

buckwill
08-04-2011, 10:47 PM
its in some of the old eaa power books,, if u have a flywheen on one end of the crank and prppllor on the other, u will get torsional whip in the crank that will break it,its the same as resoance in the bede drive shaft and talors early effrts in his roadable lane,, sorry for the old post, or post on old thead, just stick my 2 in here, sorry for typing, stroke and arrest,, buck

buckwill
08-04-2011, 10:51 PM
theres another group u might want to take a look at, its called DIY-EFI, uses off the shelf or off boneyards parts, ecus, injectors and cracked coding, many professional efi engineers and talented amatuers ther, buck

buckwill
08-04-2011, 10:57 PM
the above is in reference to post 405 on torional resonance with flywheel and prop on opposite ends of the crank, sorry, stroke , i forget stuff like that buck

Friendly
08-05-2011, 05:09 AM
Hello Buck
thanks for posting,
The Megasquirt is the same ECU that DIY is marketing. They are a very helpful group of people.

Mark

WHY
08-05-2011, 12:43 PM
Mark

Having looked at the multi-port injection we are using on the 2 cylinder Weber (or even the 3 cylinder Yamaha) and having gotten the education on how they work, I have been comparing this with the TBI system and wonder if it would be a better way to go if I were building from scratch. The multi-port is the ultimate, for sure, BUT the TBI is pure simplicity and the gain of the multi-port over the TBI is not that great. My only question would be, could a TBI handle the real high rev's adequately?? The TBI would only need crank sensing and tempurature sensing, and throttle position sensing. The crank would give both timing and rpm , tempurature and TPS would control fuel (possible need for MAP). Would sure be a simple harness. I remember the TBI on my old Chevy S-10 that had just a four cylinder , pure simple.

Tony

Friendly
08-05-2011, 02:34 PM
Tony,
The simple solution is as John said, order a Walbro Model C ECU and wire it to your Weber.
But look how much you know about your engine now, that you have researched, what all of those teeth and sensors do.

As far as the TBI, I think the Weber ideal of how to fuel their engine is best. It is best for our application as well. You have two separate circuits controlling fuel to the two cylinders and even though they call them Banks, so you have build in a dual carb this way. TBI is like having one big Carb.

The major benefit of port injection is the consistency of the fuel mix because the intake runners are not as big a factor and by breaking down the work of the injector to manage only one cylinder, we get an injector that is better at atomization in the lower rpms. Thus it is better economy wise and not very much on the power end. It will translate to a clean burning engine, so hopefully add to the life of the motor.
So YES a TBI will work same as the port injection on the upper RPMs, as long as the total fuel flow is computed for the volume of the engines cylinders and RPM

Be glad you don't have the Turbo to add more spice to your education. ROFL

Hang in there, Who's going to encourage me if you go buy one of those pretty "plug and play" ECU's:D

WHY
08-05-2011, 03:42 PM
Mark

"plug and play" , not to worry, all my life I have been able to find a more difficult way to do things. That is what has made it so interesting.

Tony

WHY
08-09-2011, 04:26 PM
Hi Mark

Don't know what you have in mind for a oil cooler but there is a good one and a good buy ( if the quality is good??) on E-Bay-----number 230617833659. Ordered one and will see what the quality is like. It is a 7 row, but with "nice wide" spacing between the tubes and a lot of "breathing for the fins, they have a 9 row that has less height but has very close fin spacing.. Read an article on radiators some time back that said "more tubes and more fins is not always better because you get "air daming" in front of the radiator and actually loose cooling .

Tony

Friendly
08-09-2011, 07:12 PM
Tony,
I looked at those, I think the AN10 fittings are attached to 1/2 female pipe threads. I did not know it that would be a restriction on the oil pump. The Polaris cooler that I have is 5/8 and opens to 3/4 at the reservoir tank.

I thought about a heater core since they are built with 5/8 and 3/4 inlets. I would not have to haggle with the special hose that Polaris uses. So I ordered one a while back from EBay. It was well built, but it is copper, so the weight is more that I would like to use.

I like the oil cooler you have selected and the inlet may not be a factor at all.
I was just trying to keep as much as I could the same as Polaris designed it.

If I made a small manifoid for two AN fittings and used dual coolers, I would go with what you ordered. I never thought about that until now.

WHY
08-09-2011, 07:36 PM
Mark

I took that into consideration, before I ordered this cooler I measered the ID of the new hose fitting on the bottom of the pan (the one I got from Randy), it measured .550, the one I took off measured .540 so I think this would not be to much restriction ?? My only concern now is that they are made in "YING-Yang" province, and do not know the quality of the flash soldering of all the fins and fittings. Looking at most of what I see on the aftermarket auto websites, it lools like most are from Ying-Yang province. If the quality turns out ok then it is ok by me.. I know I could not readily find what I was looking for in a Harrison, they all had fins packed to tight to suit me. If you are running fan forced air in a shroud, tight fins are ok.

Tony

PS they have some larger ones with AN-12 fittings

WHY
08-11-2011, 02:02 PM
ROTORTEC

Hi John
Have some questions about the "banjo bolt and fitting" on the oil line. I have found a supplier here in the States for the double 18mm x1.5 bolt and the fitting that goes with it. However I have some questions about the fitting. I measured the opening located at the bottom of the threads in the engine block and it measures around .470 inch in size, the opening in the bottom of the bolt measures about .510 inch in size (no problem so far) the 4 openings through the bolt measure about .270 inch (still no problem ) HOWEVER, the inside opening in the hose barb where the hose goes measures ONLY about .410inch . This is quite a restriction, is your German fitting made the same way or is the opening in the hose barb more near,
.500 inch. Since this is a gravity feed to the intake of the main oil pump, is this restriction acceptable ???

Tony

WHY
08-12-2011, 05:45 PM
Hi Mark

Got the oil cooler that I order today and it appears to be of very good quality and construction. It is EXACTALY what I was looking for, now the only thing is to mount it. It measures about 13 inch long (core is about 9 inches long ) by about 3 1/2 inches high (plus fittings) and about 2 inches thick with excellent fin spacing. Can't remember the costs, something like 32 or 35 dollars FREIGHT FREE. If the brazing is good I will be very happy. Got it from DPT MOTORSPORT 2328 PECK RD CITY OF INDUSTRY, CA 90601 562- 695- 2300 7 Row Blue with AN-10 connections.

Tony

PS note post in "general discussion"

PS PS, got it off E-bay

Friendly
08-14-2011, 08:14 PM
I am sure it will be more effective than the Polaris and definitely weight less. That was a good buy for 35 dollars.

WHY
08-21-2011, 06:16 PM
Hi Mark

Just got some of my fittings from www.batinc.net , really a good place to get fittings for oil, water ect ect also oil tanks and oil coolers. The guy I talked to was also very helpful and knowledgable in suggesting various fittings and connections. They have standard banjo bolts, just not the double type. Good prices too, may be of interest to the Yamaha guys as well.

Tony

Friendly
08-22-2011, 04:59 AM
I looked the web sight over and they have some nice pieces for DIY guys.
The heat has been really bad as you know.

I went out of state last weekend to pick up a milling machine. I spent all week just getting it unloaded, wired and running. NOW something else to have to learn.

My Megasquirt is sitting on the computer desk in front of me and it has been finished for about 2 weeks. (I think)
It may have to have an additional output for the Turbo solenoid valve, but if so, I have the components already.

I need to go out to the shop and start wiring it to the Weber, at least for a test run, but that requires a laptop, which I do not have at the moment.

SO I am Glad SOMEONE is working on the WEBER.!!

WHY
08-26-2011, 07:46 PM
Mark

Here are some pics of the oil cooler I got, do not recommend getting it in any color but natural, the paint comes off with your finger nail, but so far like the cooler. mounted on temp brackets, fittings are 10-A . Banjo bolt is short type, no long bolts yet.

Tony

JEFF TIPTON
08-27-2011, 03:32 AM
Tony have you considered adding a tee fitting at the cooler to facilitate oil draining?

Friendly
08-27-2011, 05:57 AM
Tony,
Sorry to hear about the color peeling, it looks fantastic where you have it mounted.

Jeff,
Thats a good ideal Jeff. One we usually think about the first time we drain the oil. lol

WHY
08-27-2011, 08:59 AM
Hi Mark and Jeff

That's a good idea, had not thought about the draining. Would have to add the "T" next to the Banjo fitting though, otherwise would not drain the tank. Oil will come from "pan" to oil cooler, thru cooler, up to top of tank and then gravity flow down to Banjo fitting which is input to high pressure pump. Oil has to flow into top of tank to vent gas pressure. Think oil tank will be modified Briggs and Stratton lawnmower gas tank (steel).

Tony

WHY
09-03-2011, 01:17 PM
Hi to Mark and Jeff and all the other Weber fans

Just got notice that the double length banjo bolts are "supposed" to ship this last week (they were out of stock) so I guess that means I will have them in about "2 WEEKS " :)

In the mean time I was looking on the new web site I found (www.batinc.com) and notice they had a 18 x 1.5 mm to 10AN adapter and have ordered it and some other connectors as I now think the adapter with a 90 degree hose barb 10AN connector will be the better way to go for me with my mounting set up plus the parts are always instock at BAT. Will give a much better and smoother flow path for the oil input to the high pressure pump. The only pressure at the pump input is from the gravity feed of the oil tank. Have not been working on the Weber for sometime (waiting on parts and the heat) and last week bought a old antique snow blower that I have been rebuilding, (figure if this winter is like this summer it's going to be a BITCH) and I have shoveled snow for the last 2 years and this s--t is gonna stop, health wont allow it anyway. Made a deal with the neighboor I would get the snow blower and let him keep it if he would clear my drive way.

Tony

JEFF TIPTON
09-03-2011, 02:56 PM
Not the dreaded "TWO WEEKS". Of course they probably did not say which two weeks.

Good news on the AN adapter. That gives us some more options.

Not sure about the snow here this year around here. The last two years Atlanta has been getting more than us.

Trackwelder
09-06-2011, 06:39 AM
This engine has developed the most interest of any out there, does anyone have a tractor application for us fixed wing types in the testing stage yet, I know neil at Autoflight seemed to be close except his engine didn't run, I am getting to the point of having my 582 refreshed or buying the Weber and the 3 gear redrive, but I don't have the dollars to throw at something that doesn't work. I wish I could be leading this pack instead of following ( the view never changes if you are not the lead dog) all I have left is to cover one wing and put a finish coat on everything else is to the silver stage, I just want to see the Weber in someone elses bird snowmobiles with low miles are cheap around here, it has been 20 years since we have had enough snow to do much and it seems to be getting worse, not global warming just no snow. anxiously waiting a reply Trackwelder.

WHY
09-06-2011, 09:15 AM
Hi Eric

How much HP are you looking for and what is it going on. You mentioned a tractor fixed wing, can you make a engine mount ? The engine has already been proven in Europe but no one that I know of has bought one here in the States. I am making one that will be non-turbo (appx 70 to 80 hp) but have quite a ways to go before testing and will probably be looking at next year before it is running. Will probably use Neil's 2 gear re-drive, and have no idea about performance other than what I read about the ones in Europe.

Tony

Mine is set up for a tractor gyro, but the mount is quite labor intensive. There are pictures of it on this thread.

Trackwelder
09-06-2011, 10:37 AM
anything more than 80hp is just gravy, after welding a complete fuselage and a mount for a 582, I don't think I would have any problems with the motor mount. the 3 gear gives me a better height for my prop, but I am pretty sure that will mean getting a new warp drive propellor, I just want to see one in the air, a pusher with a low drive may work, but not on my plane, Neil looks like the best way but he seems to be a busy man and this is a back burner project for him, and I can understand that. I just hate the idea of buying a snowmobile that I will never ride and won't have a use for the engine.

WHY
09-06-2011, 01:22 PM
Eric

As far as I know, here on the forum, there are basicly 3 of us doing a conversion. Mark Carmouche (friendly) Jeff Tippton, and myself (WHY) there may be some others. Most are wanting to buy a engine and conversion but these 3 are the only ones I know of actually "doing" a conversion and each of us is doing it a little different. Mark and Jeff are doing turbo conversions and mine is non turbo with reversed head. If you are close to needing a engine, your option of doing a "refresh" job on your 582 may be the best way to go, even if one of us gets one going it will be a year or more before it has any hours and trials on it. There are so many things to do on a engine when you do a conversion,especially a dry sump type engine plus water cooled. You have the cooling system to figure out, the oiling system to figure out the exhaust system to figure out, the fuel system to chose,(carb or EFI), the mounting system to figure out and the intake system to figure out, the cowling system, and finally the re-drive system to figure out. Any one of these can easly take 2 months to do and some like the re-drive may take up ot a year if you are doing the first one. Most any of these systems will be built and thrown away at least once with the exception of the re-drive (you want to be REAL SURE about it). So as I said the 582 may be the way to go if you are needing a engine very soon.

Tony

Friendly
09-06-2011, 07:58 PM
Eric,
the Weber and the 582 are almost identical in length, height, and width. I swapped the the Weber with my 582 and put it on a pusher back in Feb. I like you , did not want to spend anymore money until , I got some assurance's it would work. I managed a crowhop down the runway, but the engine was "hunting" or pulsing in the rpm around 5500. I contributed this to the Polaris wiring harness which had numerous safety switches built into the running program. Rather than trying to wire around the switches (there were several things I had to do to even get it to run 5500 on the Polaris harness as it was.), I elected to build the Megasquirt.

In the Megasquirt 2 standard configuration, I could not get sequential spark but could get sequential or bank injection for two banks.

Meanwhile , I thought, I would add a bell housing at everyone's suggestion for a flywheel.

I went almost as far as I could on my small mill with the bell housing. While doing this I ordered a few additional parts for my Megasquirt to make it truly sequential Coil on Plug ignition.

The Megasquirt was finished a few weeks ago, but I purchase a much larger Mill and I have spent all of my free time learning how to use it.

I might be able to put the Weber on a test stand and wire up the Megasquirt within two weeks if I go back to the original Rotax C box and Alum. Adapter plate.

If so, What sort of test would you like run?

(I still need to get a laptop computer for the diagnostics).
I am also working with another ECU manufacturer to have an ECU tailored for the Weber Engine. It would cost approximately $1100 dollars with tuning software and installation manual. I have to send him my coils and injectors to make sure the ECU is designed for our specific application. This will mean, no Weber till I get them back.

Friendly
09-06-2011, 08:19 PM
In reference to the above post, If anyone is considering the Weber as a possible power source, what length wiring harness from the ECU to the engine would you like to see available? If we get a harness tailored to our needs, we should get the length close to what we think is appropriate.

Trackwelder
09-08-2011, 03:57 AM
I would like to see someone with a tractor set up with 100 to 200 hours either in an aircraft or on a test stand after the bugs are worked out, my rotax is supposed to have 175hrs but has been sitting so I will have to put in new seals at a minimum, I have an oversize belly radiator so I should be okay there, I would love to see the turbo done up as my plane can handle a 912 and the next one I build they are using lycoming O235s in, I would rather have more power than I need and throttle back than have to little power but since the original of my next design flew on 50hp before they decided to upgrade to a C-85 I could almost stay N/A. I just want to see real world applications in the air, and I believe Neils three gear redrive would give me the best setup, Although I have not seen his price, or the price on a belt drive either.

NavyDoc
09-08-2011, 03:50 PM
In reference to the above post, If anyone is considering the Weber as a possible power source, what length wiring harness from the ECU to the engine would you like to see available? If we get a harness tailored to our needs, we should get the length close to what we think is appropriate.

Hi Every one. I'm finally ready to start working in my engine. It just arrived today to Guantanmo Bay. I visited the car hobby shop here and it seens very limited to the tools they have available. I see you have make gret progress with wirering. I previously had purchase a microsquirt, but I see that for my turbo engine it may not be what I need.

WHY
09-08-2011, 04:26 PM
Hi Dennis

Go to the Microsquirt Web site and read up on the capabilities of the unit, it is supposed to cover anything from a single cylinder to a V-8 fuely. I think they built in a couple of features into the Microsquirt that were not in the Megasquirt unless you added some options, could be wrong but read up on it. Have not tried to program mine yet but I am normal aspirated, otherwise the same. Weather and time have kept me slower than usual.

Tony

Friendly
09-08-2011, 09:35 PM
Hi Every one. I'm finally ready to start working in my engine. It just arrived today to Guantanmo Bay. I visited the car hobby shop here and it seens very limited to the tools they have available. I see you have make gret progress with wirering. I previously had purchase a microsquirt, but I see that for my turbo engine it may not be what I need.

Dennis,
I think you can use the Microsquirt on the Turbo, It will have to run in Wasted spark, with a single trigger, I think, I have not read enough on it. The software is very flexible as far as engines go. In fact the Microsquirt, not the Megasquit is what DIY recommeded to me for my Turbo. I just want to keep the engine running in the same configuration as the Bosch ECU had it. Part of fun in building it was to see if I could get it to wire up same as the Bosch.

I am glad to see you made it there ok and really look forward to hearing about your Weber progress.

WHY
09-08-2011, 10:12 PM
Hi Mark

My Microsquirt uses the crank for timing and the cam for cylinder selection, what is needed for the turbo, I don't know, it may need a second MAP sensor for boost ??

Tony

Friendly
09-09-2011, 05:13 AM
Tony,
I don't know where the Mico picks up the second trigger (the cam) maybe it is already wired for dual ignition inputs.
I changed out the standard Map sensor that was on my board to the "Map Daddy 4" which is two Map sensors, on one, chip board.
The single map sensor reads pressure before the engine starts and uses that pressure to calculate the air density for mixture. The dual takes a second reading and compares the two to make corrections. So it would be beneficial for altitude changes even if you don't run a turbo. That is the beauty of electronic injection over carburetors. (my 2 cents).

But if you or I fly a gyro in Florida one week, and CO. the next, the computer should adj the mixtures automatically even with the single map, because it samples the pressure before it starts.
Tubo will need 2nd Map sensor, Intake Air Temp sensor, and input/out put circuit to operate the tubor wastegate

I am very close to making my first part on the new Mill, I should be back on the Weber soon.
I am excited to see Navy Doc , posting again.

WHY
09-09-2011, 05:53 AM
Hi Mark

I think that Navy Doc will want to use that "Map Daddy 4" as well. My normally aspirated has a Walbro system that has the Map and AIT combined into one unit that mounts on to the dual throttle body system so it would take a unit like you used for the Bosch system. Yes, the cam is the second sensor used in the ignition system on the 2 cyllinder engine, it just alternates firing back and forth, works only on 2 cylinder this way.

Tony

WHY
09-09-2011, 02:18 PM
Hi Mark

Bolts on the way, with explanation.

Tony

WHY
09-09-2011, 02:19 PM
CORRECTION to above post

"Hi Jeff"

Bolts on the way, with explanation.

Tony

JEFF TIPTON
09-09-2011, 03:18 PM
Much appreciated.

Trackwelder
09-11-2011, 03:59 AM
Tony, I am just guessing here but couldn't you take the MAP reading down stream from the turbo, that way it would always be reading tha actual pressure on the intake side?

WHY
09-11-2011, 05:42 AM
HI Eric

I am pretty dense when it comes to this EFI stuff but am learning a little. I think one map is used for altitude sensing the other is for the intake pressure.

Tony

Trackwelder
09-12-2011, 06:38 AM
Not trying to start an argument, but if you have the intake pressure, why would you need to know the altitude, a turbo would spin up to x amouint of boost no matter if it was below sea level or up to any altitude you could fly at.

WHY
09-12-2011, 07:19 AM
As I said Eric, I'm pretty dense about this EFI Stuff, so someone else will have to explain the need for the two Maps, I only use one on my N/A engine.

Tony

Trackwelder
09-13-2011, 03:09 AM
I am looking for an explanation myself, since it seems that there is no easy way around using the snowmobile computer.

JEFF TIPTON
09-13-2011, 04:48 AM
It's finally here and I've got plenty of them ready to ship-- The 'MapDaddy' 4-bar Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) Sensor upgrade for the MegaSquirt, with one primary 4-bar MAP sensor for standard MAP Sensor duties, and a second for realtime barometric correction so that your fueling calculations will stay accurate in the event of an elevation change (mountain runs anyone?). The design was well thought through and is completely compatible with the MegaSquirt-1/2/3 with either the B&G standard or the Extra code variants, also fully supports all major PCB versions, PCB2.2, PCB3.0, and PCB3.57 units. Pretty much any hardware platform is good to go...

http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/mapdaddy-bar-map-sensor-with-barometric-correction-p-117.html

Friendly
09-13-2011, 01:37 PM
Tony,
You are not dense, by any means. You have dealt with Carburetors and point ignitions and the EFI is just new terminology.
I can't explain as well as Chuck or Doug, some give me so latitude . Eric, I do not take your post to be argumentative. You are just trying to get a better understanding, same as the rest of us.

A carb, uses the float level and atmospheric pressure to flow certain amounts of fuel through the holes (jets) into the venturi area where it is mix with the incoming air.

We make those adjustments on the ground where the Temps and pressures are relatively stable. If we fly that engine higher and higher then the ratio of the air to fuel changes although we did not change anything on the engine.
So we know that the density of the the air became less as we gain altitude, but the jets do not know this and they still flow the fuel in large amounts resulting in a rich condition.

The Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) takes a reading on the ground. This is now the "standard" for the computer to make adjustments in the ratio of fuel delivered to the incoming air. It is varied by the engine temp, Throttle Position, and intake air temp. We have to have a starting point that will allow the ECU to go rich or lean, to start and warm up the engine, then run.

As long as we remain on the ground this is good reference numbers, same as a carb. But when we go up in altitude, we know that the air density has changed. The dual MAP will allow the ECU to measure the air density on the outside and compare it to the air density in the manifold. AS the turbo begins to add more air (oxygen) back into the manifold, the ECU can make air density calculations instantly. Also when you kick back to idle at altitude the ECU can read the two barometric sensors and make comparisons. It is able to adjust the pulse width of the injectors to increase or decrease fuel. More importantly is ignition timing can be advanced for power and then retarded some as the boost kicks in.

I hope this makes some sense.

WHY
09-13-2011, 02:07 PM
Hey Mark

Thanks for kicking in that explanation on the MAP's. How goes it on your project, just got my oil tank (a brand new Briggs & Stratton lawnmower gast tank) and more oil line conncetions and fitting, got to go to the hangar in about a hour to play with the new parts (toys).

Tony

Friendly
09-13-2011, 08:35 PM
Tony,
To be honest, I have not done anything on the Weber since I finished the Megasquirt. I purchased a CNC machine and I had to put in a bigger Electric Panel in the shop to handle it.
I read the manual through (twice). Writing a program was a bit more challenging than I thought it would be. I am trying it out on some small parts before I tackle the bell housing for the Weber.

It is nice to have it cut 4 parts that all look alike. These are the frames for a Butterfly Rotor Brake, one has the pockets cut for the starter bosses, the other three do not. I just add to the program until I get it where I want it. So I will try to finish these up for the people who ask me to build them.

This weekend is the Texas flyin at the Gatorfest. But the weather has really been great for working outdoors.

WHY
09-16-2011, 08:21 PM
ROTORTEC

Hi John

Sort of a bump on post # 1263 on page 85. Does the banjo fitting that you use for the oil pump inlet have a .500 inch inside diameter on the hose barb ???

The biggest I can find here in the States, has a hose barb that is 1/2 inch "outside" diameter with .375 inside diameter which I think is to much restriction. I am able to get the .500 inside diameter if I go to a banjo fitting with a 10AN male fitting and use a 10AN hose barb. I can go this way but it is a little bulky, would prefer a banjo fitting with the large hose barb manufactured on the fitting. Do you have any sources, do not know if the one listed on the "Racing" web site has a .500 inside diameter on the hose barb ??

Tony

ROTORTEC
09-17-2011, 04:07 AM
Hi Tony, sorry to get back to you so late, Yes the inside of this fittings is about 13 mm or 1/2 Inch. Have enclosed some Pictures for you to see. Think we are talking about the same Fitting.

John

WHY
09-17-2011, 09:59 AM
Hi John

Yes those are the fittings, the bolt has the .500 inside diameter but what about the inside diameter of the hose barb ??? If the inside diameter of the hose barb is .500 also then I may wish to order 1 or 2 from you. The bolt I have looks identical to the one you have and the Banjo looks like the same but the hose barb inside diameter is about .375

Tony

ROTORTEC
09-17-2011, 10:10 AM
Tony,

the inside of the Hose fitting is 12 mm very close to 1/2 Inch

John

WHY
09-17-2011, 10:28 AM
Ok John

How do I order 2 of the banjo fittings ??

Tony

PS will be gone for about 2 hour.

ROTORTEC
09-17-2011, 11:37 AM
Tony,

just send me an E-mail and we will send you a quote and the needed Parts, no Problem we have them in stock.

John
Info@rotortec.com

WHY
09-17-2011, 04:19 PM
E-mail sent

Thanks ever so much for your help.

Tony Stiles

WHY
09-17-2011, 05:08 PM
Well it's been a while since I posted some pictures and these will help explain why sometimes it takes so long to get something simple done. It's called "lots a choices". These pictures will show the many different ways to hook up just one connection to the input of the high pressure oil pump. Almost all of these connections can be obtained at www.batinc.com , except the double length banjo bolt. The sliver banjo fitting actually is not correct for the job, the hose barb is to small (3/8 Id.) it needs to be 1/2 inch ID. and I will be getting this from John at ROTORTEC in Germany, can't seem to find it here in the States. I can make it up by using the arrangement shown in the pictures using a banjo fitting (blue ) with a 10AN male attachment and then a 1/2 inch hose fitting with a 10AN nut but that is rather bulky. Could not find the original short straight hose fitting that I took out but that would be one option and use form fitted hoses but they are not easy to find the rest are somewhat self explanitory (I think).

Tony

WHY
09-17-2011, 05:32 PM
Since I am using a N/A engine (non-turbo) and the head is reversed, I can use a wide varity of options for the oil input port. The 2 bolt holes that held the turbo support bracket are of no concern to me so I was able to use a die grinder to cut out about half of the support rib between them and this gave me lots of room to use many different options. I went to the auto parts store and bought a 18 mm oil pan drain plug to protect the face of the input port (this is a seal face) and just used a 8mm bolt and washers to protect the lower bolt hole face. I bought the double length banjo bolt from www.hydrualic-supply.com and as a last comment, the last pictures show a much much better seal washer that has a bonded buna seal moulded to it, these come from www.batinc.com also at about .80 cent each (there great)

Tony

WHY
09-19-2011, 07:35 PM
Mark and Jeff

Looks like finally got the desired arrangement on the oil input set up !! Will be ordering the banjo with the hose barb from John at ROTORTEC in Germany but the last item I just found tonite. Someone mentioned about the "oil drain" and I got to thinking that if instead of using a spacer on the one set up using the double banjo bolt, I would use 2 banjo fittings, but make the other one a banjo with a female pipe fitting, I could use either a pipe plug or a petcock valve as a oil drain. Found the banjo fitting on this web site www.atpturbo.com $24 plus a hose barb fitting for $4 plus shipping. This will work on either N/A or turbo !!

Tony

This will drain the tank without having to use a suction gun, will drain about 90 percent of oil right after you shut off the engine and all of the oil is still in the tank.

Friendly
09-19-2011, 07:59 PM
I hope you find what you are looking for Tony. I know its always hurry up and wait.
I am working on an engine test stand for the Turbo. I had a friend tell me he had a laptop , that he was not using that I could use with the Megasquirt. So maybe I will start wiring mine this weekend.

Friendly
09-24-2011, 04:54 PM
I have a frame built to hold the Weber and all of the wires cut off of the motor, leaving myself some pig tails

I will try to wire it next weekend

WHY
09-24-2011, 05:00 PM
HI Mark

That looks like a great set up for "bench testing" and trial runs, you can get to any place you want

Tony

Friendly
09-24-2011, 05:05 PM
Thanks,
I maybe calling on you to tell where those pigtails go, lol
If I don't respond on the forum, I am not ignoring anyone, My moms been ill again and I spend more time with her. So bear with me.

Lee Scatt
09-24-2011, 06:04 PM
Best wishes for you and your mom Mark. I'll have her in our prayers.

Friendly
09-25-2011, 11:24 AM
Thank you Lee,
She is doing better today!

WHY
09-25-2011, 11:29 AM
Hi Mark

I tend to agree with Stan on the oil cooler thread, "but" on a marine engine, as best I can tell they run the oil through the cooler before going into the tank. Sure wish I was a "injenear' so I could understand this stuff. What's your take on this question ??

Tony

Friendly
09-25-2011, 05:08 PM
Tony,
I'm about to leave again so I will respond tomorrow. I do not know which thread you are referring to in the post above.
To me, if the oil goes to the cooler first, it has some time to lose some of the vapors and it is at it hottest coming from the motor, than coming from the reservoir, I would think it would give up the greatest amount of heat in the cooler at this point.

WHY
09-25-2011, 06:03 PM
Hi Mark

It's under the "engine" thread , titled oil system design

Tony

Friendly
09-26-2011, 11:06 PM
Tony,
I read the thread, my comments are still the same.

By the way, I was looking over the DIY Relay board. There is not enough of out puts for the Weber Turbo, so I will wire directly from the ECU the same as you did. Did you add any shielded wiring on any of the trigger inputs or just used the one that is on the wiring harness to attach to the the VR sensor?
I don't guess you have a Knock Sensor either?
Did you connect to the Bosch MAPs with the Idle Air Temp or use one side of the the sensor.

If I had it to do over again, I would go with the Fidle valve instead of the stepper motor.

I am going to remove the Start solenoid relay from the Bosch wiring, separate the Chassis Relay from the Fuel Pump relay and use the Chassis Relay for the main relay. I will power the Megasquirt off of it and run a separate hot wire with fusible link to the Fuel Pump relay. That way the ECU will turn on the Fuel pump relay and not burn up the coils when the switch is on. I think the FP is only turned on when the engine is turning over. I will double check.

WHY
09-27-2011, 07:55 AM
Hi Mark

I used the original snowmobile fuse block (redesigned) between the ECU and the engine and yes I shielded ALL of the trigger inputs (quite some work but thought it desireable since DIY made a point to mention it). Bought shielding from Wicks I think, the wiring looms are STUFFED FULL . I think some of the pictures may show the shielding going to a common ground on the firewall. If you want to get one of the fuse blocks like the snowmobile used, I found the source for the parts (brand new) at Mouser electronics, have the part numbers somewhere. You will have to put in the pins and program it like you want it ( a lot easier when it's new). The fuse block has 4 relays and 4 fuses and 2 spare fuses.

On the Microsquirt, the FP turns on for 2 seconds, primes the system then shuts off until the engine starts cranking and runs.

Tony

PS I used both sides of the Bosch MAP/AIR TEMP sensor and no I dont have a knock sensor.

WHY
09-27-2011, 08:06 AM
Mark

why use a fiddle valve or a stepper motor, just prime it and the ECU takes care of the need for enriched fuel when cold, via the coolant temp sensor, use a little extra throttle while cold like you would on any aircraft engine. It will be warm before you take off.

Tony

WHY
09-27-2011, 08:11 AM
Mark, I even shielded the wiring to the injectors and to the ignition coils all the way from the ECU, thru the firewall connectors and to the coils and injectors (fun??) Was thinking about radio noise also.

Tony

Friendly
09-27-2011, 07:06 PM
Tony,
I don't see anything wrong with priming the engine. Thats what I do with the Rotax. It would just be nice to keep it as original as possible before I start removing anything else. One of the nicest things to me about the Yamaha was the way it started.
I will soon find out. I plan to wire it in this weekend.
On another note, I read on Compact Radials web page, their clutch driven PSUR is rated at 130 hp at a cost of about 1600.

WHY
09-27-2011, 07:34 PM
Mark

I looked at that site you just mentioned and that re-drive is quite interesting and a great price too. I don't know how well it would adapt to a damper drive and a flywheel.

The clutch is ok on the two stroke since it has a lot of "mass" in the crank but I think the four stroke is going to require a flywheel to stay out of trouble with reasonance.

If it could be adapted to a damper set up I think it would be a real prospect, and a great price.

Am going to have to make my oil tank, my "expensive" idea about the lawnmower gast tank just is not going to pan out, just another minor delay :)

Tony

WHY
09-27-2011, 09:08 PM
Hey Mark

Also look at the rpm max on the re-drive ??

Tony

Brent_Brown
09-28-2011, 04:54 AM
What happened to the autoflight gear? Neal?

WHY
09-28-2011, 05:22 AM
Waiting on Neal, told him I was in no rush.

Tony

WHY
09-28-2011, 05:34 AM
Neal's use of the Centaflex is what makes it easier to adapt a damper rather than a spline.

Tony

All_In
09-28-2011, 07:53 AM
Good morning Tony, Mark, and Friends...
I've been out of touch for the last 6+ weeks.

Buddy can you give me an update as to how far along you guys are?

I'm overwhelmed with all the work that as been delayed because of family obligation and do not have time to read the thread from where I left off reading and would like to know how you are progressing.

Friendly
09-28-2011, 10:34 AM
John,
We are all at the age that family obligations play a big role in our responsibilities. We take care of our young and our older family. God Bless them all.

From my project,
I removed all of the Polaris ECU and most of its wiring. I have built and mounted the engine to a test stand. I have modified the original Megasquirt to the Megasquirt Extra configuration.
I have tested the Megasquirt on the Stimulator and believe it to be working properly.
I hope to wire it to the Weber this Weekend.
I need to install a radiator, oil cooler and gas tank to the test stand.
I need to order a Wide-band O2 sensor with the gage for the Weber.
On the turbo side, I have not decided on the heat exchanger for the air and I have not decided on whether to tie the driver for the waste-gate to the Megasquirt or go with an independent device. I will probably get the engine going to get some hours on it and work out the Turbo .

I also have another ECU , I will give details on a bit later, that hopefully will be a plug and play.
I purchased a laptop Yesterday to be able to tune and program the Megasquirt on the engine as required.

I have the new firmware downloaded in the ECU and the associated program for Tuner Studios on the Laptop. I do not have the upgraded program that allows the logging and some other features on the Laptop. I may have to purchase a separate license of it as well.

Got to go, lunch is over.

WHY
09-28-2011, 02:18 PM
Hi John

Well here at the "turttle race track" things are just putting along. Got the Microsquirt ready to program, but that will be done by my computer whiz neighboor, who has a whole bunch of family issues over the last month so the ECU has not been programed or tried. Am working on my oil system, spent 3 to 4 hundred on designing it, got a lot of expensive fittings before I got the arrangement I wanted and then bought a $65 gas tank for my oil tank and now have decided to make my own as the other just did not meet what I wanted, waiting on Neil for the re-drive but told him I am in no hurry, so all in all am moving about an inch at a time with many yards still to go.

But all this keeps me out of the bars, off the streets and don't have any money left for the girls so not much chance of getting into trouble.

Look to see some progress over the next 2 months.

Tony

WHY
10-04-2011, 06:40 PM
The pictures below kind of show what has been happening with the oil system I am making for the Weber. The first picture shows 3 types of fittings, on the left is a banjo fitting with 10AN male thread with a 10AN "aggressive" hose barb (more on this later) the one in the middle is the one I just got from ROTORTECH (had to order from John in Germany) and the one on the right is the biggest I could find in the States. The first 2 have a 1/2 inch dia hole, the one on the right has a 3/8 dia hole (to much restriction).

The second picture shows 2 different double banjo bolts, both came from Hydrualic Supply Company, when I ordered 6 they were out and when they shipped I got two differents styles. To me there is a very important difference here and it is the length not the holes. The one has 3 holes bored at 120 degrees, a little larger and with champfered edges (nice) the other has 4 holes (a little smaller) cross bored and sharp edges. Both have about the same "total" flow diameter so flow capacity is more or less the same. The main difference is the one with 4 holes has about 2 or 3 threads more length giving it more length from the bottom of the head to the end of the bolt. This becomes quite important when we get to the crush washer seals.

The copper washer is about .035 thick the aluminum is about .055 and the washer with the molded buna rubber seal is about .080 thick. On the shorter bolt I would only use the copper washers and then the number of threads is just barely sufficient in my opinion. The longer bolt gives me some options of mixing the washers and using 1 or 2 of the rubbers seal washers. The shorter bolt measures about 2- 1/8 and the longer measures about 2-1/4.

The banjo fittings are about .780 thick, however one banjo fitting that I ordered that had a female 3/8 pipe thread in it ( was going to put in a drain valve) measured about .880, expensive but could not use it. One final word, about the hose in the picture. When the manufacture of these "aggressive,no clamp needed" hose barbs says to heat the hose in boilng water and use some grease inside the hose -------THEY MEAN IT!!!!!

No way is that hose coming off under low pressure, if you make a mistake and get it about half way on, you are going to CUT IT OFF !! Last 2 pictures are duplicates.

Thought I had found a source for the banjo fitting in Canada at Williams Fluid Air Co. but it turns out that although they show it in the catalog they do not stock it and do not seem like they want to order it either (guess what, it comes from Europe) .

Tony

WHY
10-04-2011, 06:49 PM
Oh yes, I for got to mention the reason for the 2 banjo fittings, one will have a short smaller hose on it with a drain valve at the end which will allow me to place the drain where ever I want it and this will allow me to drain the tank without having to use a suction gun like on the snowmobile.

Tony

WHY
10-11-2011, 09:08 PM
Way back on page 30, post 449, the picture shows a Weber with what looks like a pair of K&N filters. Anyone know what size these are or the part number for them or the cone version ???

Tony

WHY
10-12-2011, 05:23 PM
Hey Mark

What's happening with your Weber ? Still making lines and hoses for my oil system, and finally have designed my oil tank the way I want it, now to get it welded up. Think I found the part number for the K&N filters I want (RC-1252 ) Boy are they expensive, about $ 69 bucks plus freight, order anyway should be in Fri.

Found I needed a "beading" tool in making up my oil lines, looked up the prices !@#$%^& TO MUCH. So am now trying to make one from a old flaring tool.

Tony

Friendly
10-13-2011, 10:36 PM
Tony,
I started the Weber on the Megasquirt and have not touched it since. I have been making some parts on the CNC mill for some other gyro owners and helping my son get my old Bensen going so he can begin his crow hops. I have one more rotor brake and one rotorhead to get finished, then I will start on the cooling system so I can get some running hours on the Weber. I am probably going to ditch the Rotax gearbox and get the MZ gearbox with clutch. Not sure about that, I wish I had one to look over.

Have you thought about your cooling system yet? I think I will go with the alum Honda Civic radiator. It is smaller than the rabbit radiator.

My mother has been sick off and on again, so its make parts in between the time I work and take care of her.
Post some more pictures when you get a chance. They help me think! lol

WHY
10-14-2011, 10:22 AM
Hi Mark

Sorry to hear about your mothers health, I know the situation. I am like you, I would sure like to see a design layout of the MZ gearbox, have never seen even a picture of one dis-assembled. Should be getting one from NZ in about "2 weeks" (or so) maybe. The main thing that has me tied to Neil"s gear box is the way he ties the spur gear to the damper, I don't like using splines in a re-drive, they are a potential source for wear.

As for the radiator, The best and cleanest set up I ever saw on a open frame pusher gyro was done by Dave Pike years ago. It was a Chevy Geo-Metro radiator (same as a Suzuki Swift). They make them in both brass and aluminum and in single row and double row cores. His was a double row, these are used on the car with airconditioning. I think the car was in the "90s model. The radiator was used on a direct drive EA-81 Subaru, never had a problem with it getting hot. The EA-81 is 1800cc so it should handle the Weber fine at 750cc at about twice the speed.

I have not done any design work on my radiator set up, I know it is going to be my biggest headache. Since I will be cowled, It will be a real job to put something together without creating a real "air brake" and still get good flow and velocitiy of the air.

Tony

WHY
10-14-2011, 07:51 PM
Just a little follow up note, my first idea for a tubing beading tool did not work for $%%^^& and secondly don't waste you money on those tubing benders that look like coil springs, yes they will prevent a kink but not prevent serious distortion and flatening. Back to the drawing board on the tubing beader.

Tony

Canadian Rhino
10-16-2011, 09:39 PM
Sorry read the first 20 pages and then the last 6 and falling asleep!
What I do when changing the oil on my sleds is just drain the tank and change the filter.
I then refill the tank with new oil and pull the return hose coming from the engine base and oil cooler and put it into a jug
Start the engine and watch untill you see new oil coming out.
That way the engine always gets a good oil supply and your flush is complete.
Also hook your oil cooler between your tank and oil pump intake.
That lets the oil from the sump pumps degas in the tank.
The snowmobile setup is flawed with the cooler plumbed before the tank as it condenses unburnt gasoline and moisture before it gets to the tank.
Hope that helps!
I have 2 of these machines and so far are 100% reliable.
Cant wait to see one flying
On a side note I also have a 1000 Skidoo rated at 175 horse same year as the Polaris turbos.
How come the two turbos can go past that sled when they only have 145 rated horse?
I dont know if it is the 4 stroke thing or the turbo thing or the torque but there is a big difference more so up on top end.
the 2 strokes seem to fall on their nose on top end and also seem to fail most often in that mode.
The Weber seems to have proved itself in both watercraft and snowmobile markets in WOT use
Factory setups are working very well and reprograming stock computers is also working very well for those racing.
Some are getting over 200 horse with no failures
Something to think about!

WHY
10-16-2011, 10:55 PM
Hi Phil

Talked to Randy out at Watcon a few days ago and he had been at some big time jet ski races (nationals I think) he said the Weber's pretty well cleaned house AGAIN. This is real encouraging on reliability. I agree on the plumbing situation about the cooler should be after the oil tank and not before, don't know why they put it before, maybe if I had a better understanding of design it would be clear, but not at this time.

I am slowly getting a good education on the Weber or should I say a fast education but it is sinking in very slowly. I think my next big jump is going to be in getting a understanding about cooling, or BTU conversion and dissapation or how many square inches of what kind of radiator in what kind of air flow will produce how much heat dissapation ect ect. I think this will be a whole "black art" of forumlas and "witches brew"

Tony

PS the two stroke power and torque curve hold the answer as to why the lower hp out does them when fed by a turbo

All_In
10-17-2011, 06:26 AM
You will get there when you get there my friends!
Sp glad to read you started her Mark. I would love to see her running.

Canadian Rhino
10-17-2011, 07:27 AM
Hi Tony
Going from my experience I would take a long hard look at an air conditioning evaporator from a car for use as a rad.
They are all aluminum and can hold a lot of pressure.
The combined surface area must be close to 4 times that of the ones used in the sleds.
When a sled is running on ice the tunnel coolers are not doing very much.
The little tiny rad on the front takes over.
Sleds without the extra rad have to get off the ice and go look for snow to hit the tunnel or they overheat.

WHY
10-17-2011, 08:08 AM
Hi Phil

The airconditioning radiators will give you a supprise, the fin density is so close that it will "air dam" at the speeds we operate. For them to work they require very high speeds and serious cowling to give major pressure differential between front and back to cause "suction" to help pull the air thru the dense fin construction. In the airconditioning set up they are being force fed hard by the fan, even on low speed.

Tony

Friendly
10-17-2011, 12:47 PM
Phil,
If you have a chance, would you post some pictures of the attachment brackets on your oil tank? Thanks for posting,

John,
yes, the Weber started on the Megasquirt. I have not done any tuning yet. I hope to get back on it soon.

WHY
10-17-2011, 05:38 PM
Well Mark

Got my second model of my tube beading tool done and it works like a charm, will post some pictures later of the tool and a couple of beads on some 5/8 tubing. Cheapest I could find on the internet was about $50. and I only got about $16 in this and that includes buying a 5/16 x 24 threading die, I saved a bundle, ----- well maybe if you figure in the $2000 lathe and the $2000 mill and the two days I spent plus the hardware, maybe I didn't save a bundle, just a little bit because I work cheaper than Chinese labor :)

Tony

Friendly
10-17-2011, 07:46 PM
Tony,
Never miss an opportunity to tell you wife you must buy a lathe or mill to do some work on your gyro.

look forward to your pictures

All_In
10-17-2011, 08:39 PM
Tony you are soooo good!
Looking forward to the pictures of your handiwork!

Canadian Rhino
10-19-2011, 06:18 PM
Well heres a shot of some snowmobile oil tank pictures!
One machine from one side and the other one from the other side!

WHY
10-19-2011, 06:33 PM
Hi Mark

It may be hard to believe, but Marilyn was pushing me to get a lathe and mill months before I found this used set up. Got a few tidbits of info. It has been a little bit of a hassle to find the exact type of rubber hose I wanted/needed for making up the plumbing for the oil system. Gates, Dayco, and Weatherhead were all very stiff, even in their low pressure series hoses. So much so that I felt they could transmit enough vibration to ridgid connectors like on the oil tank that eventually cause cracking around the fitting, however yesterday I was reffered to a company over in Joplin ,MO named "HySpecCo". (hydraulic specialist company). Boy did they know their business. They carried "Parker" brand hoses and they were EXACTLY what I was looking for, good quality and flexable, used for low pressure return lines on hydraulic systems. Will give the part number tomorrow along with some other stuff, I use 5/8 dia everywhere because when you use the barb fittings this makes the inside dia of the hose barbs 1/2 inch. A couple of more fittings from www.batinc.com and I will be ready to start welding on the oil tank. Also bought some of those "cheap" wire spring tubing benders as I said, not quite worth throwing away but found a real good 5/8 inch tubing bender on the internet for about $50,(new), got it from Northway Machinery Inc. in Des Moines, IA. That included freight. The model number is CBI CT364A10. Also just got a Weber exhaust manifold off E-bay (from Canada), probably will not be able to use it as is but will be able to mod it or use it as a pattern to send off to a specialty shop.

Going to have to get some progress done, since it will be getting to cold in the hangar to do much outside of the machine room (which is heated). Looking foward to getting the gear box soon and making up my flywheel set up.

Tony

Canadian Rhino
10-19-2011, 06:39 PM
Well it looks like the pictures worked had to drag them into paint and down size them!
Not sure if they will show much!
My thinking is polaris put the cooler before the tank because it is made of plastic.
I would fab one from aluminum and pipe the oil from the scavenge pumps straight into it.
Bolt it on to the air frame any where you like!
By the way you check your oil when you get home not before you leave!
Oil will seep down into the base of the engine when sitting and give you a false reading in your tank.
Oh and some small chev cars had way larger fin openings on the ac evaporators.
Something to the tune of 4 times the air flow of the average heater core.
Might be worth another look?
The little heater core looking rad on the front of my sled seems to work very well even at slower speeds on a warm spring day.
Just something to think about!:yo:

WHY
10-19-2011, 06:45 PM
Hi Phil

Thanks for that info on the Chevy AC cores, sure worth noting. You may have hit the nail on the head about cooling the oil before going into the tank but I am for sure making my tank out of 5052 x .063 aluminum with a foam chamber in the top, by the way how much oil does your sled hold, I, planing on 3.5 to 4 qt.

Tony

Canadian Rhino
10-20-2011, 07:17 AM
The sled oil change kit is 3 liters or american quarts and you must use the polaris 0-50 oil.
Take a close look at pic #3 and follow the hose from the top of the oil res.
That hooks on to what polaris calls a cyclone
The big hose leaving it vents to the breather box into some foam and a small one leaving the bottom drains to the engine base.
I guess I was playing in paint and typing when you posted!

WHY
10-20-2011, 07:11 PM
Canadian Rhino

Phil, will probably have a custome Y-pipe made eventually, do you have any recommendations on a fabricator ??

Tony

Jason O
10-21-2011, 08:34 AM
Hello All,

When I had the exhaust made for the Yamaha 3 cyl, I got a 304 stainless flange (that bolts to the engine) from some guys who make turbos for the engines. I then used these guys

http://www.stainlessheaders.com/customheaders

to make the headers and had a custom small 304 stainless muffler manufactured. They send you a kit and you can put all the bends in it you want. You send the kit back to them and a couple of weeks later, you get a very nice looking header. when all was said and done, I had about $600 into the exhaust but it sounded good and will last forever. I have tried to skimp on exhausts before and found they fall apart in short order. My advice is make a quality exhaust system the first time and you wont have to mess around with it ever again.

You can see the exhaust system about 3:30 in this video.

Yamaha powered Kolb MKIII for Sale - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AL-IsBKFPjU)

Later in the video you can also see the radiator which is a chevy evaporator core.

FWIW
Jason



Canadian Rhino

Phil, will probably have a custome Y-pipe made eventually, do you have any recommendations on a fabricator ??

Tony

WHY
10-21-2011, 11:57 AM
Jason

That chevy AC core is text book perfect for installation.

Tony

WHY
10-21-2011, 06:37 PM
Pictures 1, 2, and 3 are of the home made tube beading tool, second model and third modification, works great, see bead on tubing in pic #4. Had hoped to be able to make the tool travel aroung the tubing like a cutter but no go. Have to help rotate the tubing in the tool, this can be a little tricky after tubing in bent to shape, but ends up real nice. Picture #5 is of the tubing bender (and a bend in #4) mentioned in earlier post, well worth the $50 bucks, info also mention in earlier post. Pictures # 6,7,8, are of the plumbing partialy installed. Also some shots of the Parker rubber hose, note the pattern of the open weave on the reinforcement fabric in the hose, makes it quite flexable. Specs are as follows Parker "Push-Lok Plus " 801-10 Wp-2,1 MPo MSHA IC-40/10 This is for 5/8 dia, a 3/4 dia would be a slightly different number, but this is the brand you want to use. It's flexable enough it will not be cracking any ridgid connections, like on the oil tank. Pic # 7 is of the under side of the engine and #8 shows the aluminum line going up to the tank input (tank not yet installed) also in #8 you can see the red cap on the fitting on the cooler where the flow from the bottom of the tank will connect, then through the cooler and out of the cooler into the engine block, as seen in #6. None of the hose bracket or clamps have been installed yet.

Tony

scottessex
10-21-2011, 06:43 PM
Very nice! Great work. Looks like you are progressing well. :)

WHY
10-21-2011, 06:55 PM
Thanks Scott, It is taking a long long time but if I can't get it the way I want it then " I AIN'T HAPPY " so it usually take at least 3 times to get close. As far as expense goes, just have to close my eyes and keep going. That's why I don't recommend people try to follow what I do to quickly, cause I may change it several times before I am satisfied. Of course they are welcome to anything they see in the pictures, (if it works for them).

Tony

Canadian Rhino
10-21-2011, 07:24 PM
Canadian Rhino

Phil, will probably have a custome Y-pipe made eventually, do you have any recommendations on a fabricator ??

Tony

Have you checked all applications of tthis engine for example watercraft or what ever else Weber may have on the shelf already?
The snowmobile setup tucks in pretty neat and also bolts the turbo solid.
that wont work?

WHY
10-21-2011, 07:50 PM
Good thought Phil, no I had not checked, will do.

Tony

WHY
10-21-2011, 08:22 PM
Just a side note on the Weber, looks like Randy out in Washington is now "Weberpower" or www.weberpower.com Looks like Watcon moved to Wisconsin and is not into Weber engines any longer.

Tony

WHY
10-23-2011, 02:56 PM
Pictures mainly of the "fake" oil tank, this is a Briggs & Stratton gas tank that I thought I might use as a oil tank but it just isn't quite right but is good enough for measurements for the one I will weld up. You can see the aluminum pipe with the black cap that will go to the tank. Also a few shots of the stock Weber "Y" pipe , don't think I can use it as it but will use it for measurements also. Am now starting to look at mounting the fuel pump somewhere, as well as the starter relay and main buss bar block. When all of this is done will have to stop and do the permanant riveting of the front part of the fuselage because the "pop" rivets are just not solid enough to use for running the engine,will also install the stainless firewall at this time, then I can work on the radiator. Also a shot of a trial muffler.

Tony

WHY
10-26-2011, 02:58 PM
A little side note for all the guys experimenting with engines (and exhaust systems). Just bought some mandrel bent SS 304 tubing (90 degree bends) from a place out in California. www.spdexhaust.com they got some great year end clearance prices on various bends. Looks like going to be a really good place to get come custom work done.

Tony

Friendly
10-26-2011, 03:23 PM
Nice pictures Tony,
Hope your exhaust just falls into place on the 1st attempt.

WHY
10-26-2011, 03:29 PM
Hi Mark, thanks on the pics, if the exhaust just " falls into place" that would be scary. This is an original "Y" pipe that I am working on to shorten and relocate the O2 sensor, will still likely be to long but will work for a test set up.

Tony

WHY
11-04-2011, 07:01 PM
Hey mark

What's happening?? Finally got all the parts and pieces for my oil tank and started braking metal today, had a chance to really screw big time up and make some serious scrap metal, but suprise, suprise, just screwed up a "little bit" and am well on my way to making the oil tank (with a few "in progress" mods) to cover the mistakes . Just had one of the "good days" that are really rare. Will have some in progress pics later..

Tony

ROTORTEC
11-05-2011, 05:47 AM
Hi Tony.

all your Pictures look good.. Is that black tank your Oil-Tank?
Keep up that good work.. you will have a great Engine.. We fly
with 2 Aircraft, allmost every day.. never had a problem with the
Engine..

John

WHY
11-05-2011, 07:04 AM
HI John

The black tank is a lawnmower engine gas tank that I thought I could use but it wont work the way I wanted so am just using it as a model for measurement. The one I am making is natural color aluminum.

Tony

ROTORTEC
11-05-2011, 07:19 AM
Thank you Tony,

what kind of Oiltank will you use ?? We have used the WeberOriginal and we think this is a good choice. WE will rebuild our single seater Cloud Dancer
soon and we will us the Weber without Turbo, like the configuration you are douing.. The Turbo Verison will be to haevy for the single seat Gyro. But the Weber is the best Choise.. you will see soon..

John

Friendly
11-05-2011, 09:04 AM
Thank you Tony,

what kind of Oiltank will you use ?? We have used the WeberOriginal and we think this is a good choice. WE will rebuild our single seater Cloud Dancer
soon and we will us the Weber without Turbo, like the configuration you are douing.. The Turbo Verison will be to haevy for the single seat Gyro. But the Weber is the best Choise.. you will see soon..

John

I agree with you at that John, the Weber without Turbo is MUCH less trouble and a lot more ideal for a single. I don't know if the extra 50 hp is worth the extra stuff that goes with the turbo on a single place machine. What redrive will you be using on the single place?

Tony,
I have two small projects to get out of the shop and then I can hang a few gyros back up in the air. I will be able to get back on the Weber. I still run back and forth to my mothers due to her health. I just got home again and I'm heading to the shop. Cold weather will be here before you know it.

WHY
11-05-2011, 12:03 PM
Hi John

The reason I am building the oil tank rather than using the original or something else is that it is going under my cowling (since I am a tractor I will have the engine under cowl) and it will be a necessary "hand in glove" fit.

Tony

ROTORTEC
11-05-2011, 12:11 PM
Hi Mark,

For the normal Weber Engine we will use the new Redrive we made.. Not the Planatery one. This new one is very good and we have tested this one for many Hours on the Turbo Engine. For the normal Weber we will resize that Drive a little. Made off a dubble Belt Transmission with Clutch. See at in action on Youtube.. I have put some new Videos online latly, one of it you can find here.. For more Information e-mail me and I will send you Pictures..

John

Rotortec CD 2 new tail 2 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4qZOv1TenU)

WHY
11-06-2011, 06:22 PM
HI John

Thanks for all the help on the Weber and helping me to get those "banjo" fittings. While I am very much interested in the Weber, I am also fasinated by your 4 blade rotor system. I presume this allows you to run a shorter rotor and run the rotor at a lower speed, Yes ??

It is also very interesting to see the success you are having with this system.

Tony

ROTORTEC
11-07-2011, 01:22 AM
Yes Toni..

I will help if you need partís no Problem.. and you still have some credit for those Fittings.. 4 Bladed runís more smooth and the System buildís shorter and runs a little slower too. Little bit more Stick force but this is normal for the higher weight. We build the Head that we can fly with 2 blades anytime we like and we do this from time to time.. still testing

John

Friendly
11-07-2011, 09:29 AM
HI John,
Can you post more on your 4 rotor system?

ROTORTEC
11-07-2011, 10:47 AM
Hi Mark..

picture for you.. no Problem... John

Friendly
11-07-2011, 04:05 PM
Thanks,
I hope that system proves to work very well. It looks like it will shorten the rotor length a good bit on a two place machine. Also thank you for the video updates. It is really nice to hear a Weber sound bite.

WHY
11-09-2011, 03:39 PM
Well, It's brain jammin time.... The Weber calls for a synthetic 15-40 oil,---for most temps operation. I have made a "foam" seperation tray in the upper part of my oil tank, my tank is 10 1/4 long and about 4 3/4 wide and about 6 1/4 high with the upper 1 1/4 inch used for the "foam chamber with the separation floor" The floor covers the entire dimension of the tank forming a seperate upper chamber where the oil comes in from the engine sump. The "floor plate" has 144 1/8 inch holes in it, the intent is to slow the oil draining down for a few seconds while it drains into the lower main tank, giving it time to "degass" and exhaust out the vent in the "foam chamber". The maximum restriction in the line back to the high pressure pump is reduced down to .475 dia (inside the engine oil intake port) .

Here's my point and question for anyone with an idea or experience. With the oil cold and at "5 W" there will be plenty of "flow capacity" thru the foam seperator, but when the oil gets hot and the viscosity goes to "40 W" , with the added "foam factor", will the flow thru the seperator plate still be sufficient to give "full flow" to the oil outlet in the bottom of the tank, which is about 1/2 dia. With 144 1/8 holes this would normaly not even be a question, however when the viscosity goes up so will the "surface addhesion" of the oil as well as the "surface tension" factor..

What say ye' , ---- will a 1/8 inch dia hole be large enough to flow the hot foamy oil , any experience ????????

Tony

Neil Hintz
11-09-2011, 03:53 PM
Tony, gearbox is ready ( at last! )

WHY
11-09-2011, 03:55 PM
Hi Neil

Just great !!! Will be ready for it in about 2 weeks. Did you make contact re- the dampers ??

Tony

Neil Hintz
11-09-2011, 03:58 PM
Somehow they got a sniff of aviation, end of supply!

Neil Hintz
11-09-2011, 04:00 PM
We can still get them here in NZ but still being screwed on price. We might make our own.

Neil

WHY
11-09-2011, 04:03 PM
DAMM

Tony

JEFF TIPTON
11-09-2011, 05:46 PM
Tony it is a common misconception that multi weight oil becomes thicker as it heats up. This is wrong.

What Do the Numbers Mean?

Most people believe that a 5w30 oil is good for cold weather use because it is a "5 weight" oil in cold temperatures and a "30 weight" oil at high temperatures. On the surface this might seem to make a certain amount of sense. Naturally, a "5 weight" oil would flow better than a "30 weight" oil. This would make it ideal for cold temperature operation.

Nevertheless, this is a profound misunderstanding of what the labeling means. The two numbers really have little to do with each other. The final number is based upon the kinematic viscosity of the oil at 100 degrees C, as we discussed for monograde oils.

So, if a multi-grade oil, when heated to 100 degrees C, falls within a certain kinematic viscosity range it is classified as a certain SAE grade (the last number - like the "30" in 5w30). In other words, the kinematic viscosity of a 5w30 multi-viscosity oil falls within the same range at 100 degrees C as a monograde SAE 30 weight oil does.
5w is NOT 5 "weight"

In contrast to a monograde oil, a multi-viscosity oil also has to meet a "High Temperature/High Shear" requirement, but I'll talk about that in a minute. Let's talk about the "w" number for a moment. This first number (the "5" in 5w30) is only a relative number which basically indicates how easily it will allow an engine to "turn over" at low temperatures. It is NOT a viscosity reference. In other words, a 10w30 is NOT a 10 weight oil in cold temperatures and a 30 weight oil in warm temperatures.

In fact, since SAE viscosity classifications only apply to an oil at 100 degrees C, it doesn't even make sense to label it as a certain SAE viscosity at any temperature other than 100 degrees C.

Besides, if you thought about it for a second, it wouldn't make sense for a 10w30 oil to be a 10 weight oil in the cold and a 30 weight oil in warm temperatures. What liquid do you know of that gets "thicker" as its temperature increases or "thinner" as the temperature decreases?

I would venture to say you probably can't come up with one. This holds true for motor oil as well. If a 10w30 was a 30 weight oil at 100 degrees C and a 10 weight oil at cold temperatures, that would mean it "thinned out" as the temperature dropped. That just doesn't make any sense considering what we know about liquids. It just doesn't happen like that.

The fact is that a 5w30 motor oil is thicker in cold temperatures than in warm temperatures. In fact, you could easily demonstrate this for yourself. Have you ever tried to pour oil out of the bottle in the winter - even a winter rated multi-viscosity oil? It pours more slowly, doesn't it? That's because the cold temperature "thickens" the oil.

However, a 5w30 motor oil will be thinner than a 10w30 motor oil when subjected to the same low temperature conditions - because the "W" number is lower. This is an indication of better cold weather performance. In other words, a 5w30 flows better in cold weather than a 10w30 motor oil will. Think of the "W" as a "winter" classification instead of a "weight" classification.
Classifying the "W" Rating

Results from the Cold Crank Simulator (CCS) and Mini-Rotary Viscometer (MRV) tests are used to determine the oil's "W" grade. The better the engine "startability" of the oil at low temperature, the lower the W classification. Each W grade must meet certain "startability" requirements at a specified temperature.

For instance, ... *** the rest of this section as well as the details regarding the following headings can all be found within "The Motor Oil Bible" - 1,000 copies being given away - get yours today.

http://members.themotoroilevaluator.com/index.php?id=144

Canadian Rhino
11-09-2011, 06:20 PM
The above info is correct a 5w30 oil will pour as good as 5 weight when cold and be as thick as 30 weight when hot!
Now back to the Weber!
polaris oil is 0-50 not 15-40 for all 4 stroke engines they sell period!
When I change the oil on my weber in my snowmobile I fill my tank with new oil and put the return hose from the engine sumps into a catch bucket to finish purging the used oil from the rest of the system.
I have never timed it but I bet the engine would only run about 5 seconds (at idle) to pump out about 1 1/2 liters or quarts of oil.
Point being thats a lot of oil flow for them small holes in your plate.
Dont forget the Weber has 3 identical oil pumps, one to lubricate and 2 to scavenge.
If the engine sits for a few weeks say the oil will seep down into the engine base and the tank will empty and if your tank is to big or you have too much oil in it you will risk a hydraulic lock and damage your engine.
Make sure your system only holds 3 liters or quarts
Just a heads up!

WHY
11-09-2011, 06:44 PM
HI Jeff

I am exactly the guy they are talking about in the info !!! Thanks ever so much for that info on oil viscosities, sure straightend me out.

Think what I will have to do is rig up some kind of experiment right here at "Underware laboritories" and test the flow volume when it is cold (that should not be a problem in a few weeks :) )

Phil I picked up the info on the 15W 50 from an older Weber service manual, page 4 series 103922_SHB_Rev1.0_080901 , Recommended 15W 50 with alternative 0W 50 and a minimum of 0W 40 . Down here in the MidWest probably wont need the 0W 50. "Them small holes is exactly what I am thinking about". Will probably do that test I mentioned to Jeff and if necessary enlarge the holes. Don't want to screw up, cause the tank is coming along very nicely, and once I weld it up the plate is permanent.

Tony

Canadian Rhino
11-09-2011, 07:13 PM
Tony, be carefull!
A few post ago you you said 15-40 not 15-50
Weber now says 0-50 even in the watercraft!
The Pure polaris oil is now actually 4-50 as of last year.
Also reread what I said about the 3 liter or quart capacity-very important because I recall you saying your tank was bigger and it only hit me a few days later about the danger of that!
If 4 liters of oil drained down into that engine sump it would be so full that you would have a hydraulic lock when you went to start it up.
The starter alone has enough torque to bust a crank and bend rods under this condition.
More oil reservoir is not better in a dry sump engine!

WHY
11-09-2011, 07:32 PM
Hi Phil

Your right the last post of 15W 50 is a error , it should be 15W 40 but apparently it is now outdated by the Polaris 4-50. Good to know about the 3 liter (quart) feature, will just use the extra capacity of the tank to help cool the 3 liter volume then. Will be able to use a little more because I have a rather large oil cooler which is below the engine.

Tony

Canadian Rhino
11-12-2011, 06:56 PM
I wont do it but I would love to take the weber engine out of one of these sleds of mine and swap it out for the suberu in the Sparrowhawk

Brent_Brown
11-12-2011, 09:54 PM
Some time back they put a rotary engine in a Sparrowhawk. they had a video for it flying the runway. that engine was about the same weight and power 120 hp as the weber so Im sure it will fly it.

brlcla
11-13-2011, 02:32 PM
Did I read that correctly? Neil's Gearbox is ready? Did he get it tested? I have been out of touch for a while due to busy work schedule.

Trackwelder
11-15-2011, 07:55 AM
I realize that Neil is a busy person, but if he has the raised tractor box finished, all I need to do is see it on a flying aircraft and I am ready to make the jump. Does anyone know his price or if he is even making the three gear yet?

WHY
11-15-2011, 09:10 AM
HI Eric

The two gear mounts up or down and is his "Universal model" and has been used on several types of engines and has "accumulated " hours on this type of gear box. I think the "3 gear" version is a special single custom order by one customer and has not gotten any "accumulated" time on it . I don't know if it is "in production" or not.

Tony

Neil Hintz
11-15-2011, 09:39 AM
The two gear universal has been in production for about six years now, fitted to many different applications so far. The three gear is "sort of" in production. None flying yet so I would hold off buying one just yet. There is one in Australia that should be flying soon on a four cylinder Suzuki engine. The three gear is just a two gear stretched with an extra gear in the middle and extra oil capacity, same bearings, gear sizes, output shaft etc.

brlcla
11-15-2011, 03:49 PM
Neil,

Have you completed testing on the Weber motor itself? Or still no working engine?

We discussed about me sending one to you, but money starting going out the door on some other items of need and now trying to save back up for a motor again.

WHY
11-19-2011, 02:35 PM
Hello to all

Anyone out there got any idea what size radiator the Weber NA will require as far as BTU dissapation goes (I think that is how they figure radiator capacity ) When I say size I mean BTU dissapation, once I know this I can figure on what shape I want and have it made. I am sure a turbo model would require a much larger capacity than a NA

Tony

WHY
11-19-2011, 02:59 PM
Hey Mark

Any action going on down your way, getting dark early here and I'm kind of like a chicken in the winter time, the sun goes down and I'm ready to go to the roost, even with a well lighted hangar, also getting a lot cooler. Will probably have all the parts finished for my oil tank tomorrow, but will have to wait before I get it welded together. Want to do a "flow"test on the "foam seperator plate" finally decided to "stage" the holes in the plate, I have a total of 119 holes, have 42 at 1/8 inch, 42 at 5/32 inch and 35 at 3/16 inch. I feel pretty sure this will be sufficient to flow all the oil I need to feed the 1/2 ID. line to the pump input, but am going to set up a "shade tree" flow test here at Underwear labs and see how long it takes 2 qts of synthetic oil that has been in the refridgerator overnite to flow into a pan underneath the plate, then do the same thing with the oil heated to about 180 degrees and stirred up with a mixer to get some foam and check the flow time that way also.

Tony

Canadian Rhino
11-19-2011, 06:00 PM
Tony refridgerator test is not nessesary.
Waste of time!
Are you wearing a Skidoo suit flying that?
TIE THE THING TO A TREE AND DO ACTUAL GROUND TESTS!
Sorry for yelling but lets see this thing go!
I know it will do more than well!:der:

WHY
11-19-2011, 07:25 PM
Hi Phil

Sorry, but got to do the flow test, :) it's one of those kinks that I have :) if I were to screw up on the flow thing I would wipe out an engine and these NA are not easy to find especially with reversed heads and flange cranks :)

Tony

Friendly
11-20-2011, 07:32 AM
Hello Tony,
I have not done anything on the Weber since I started it on the Megasquirt Extra CDI. I see you are at the radiator stage. I want to mount a rad, almost flat under the motor mount.

You are right about the cold and dark early.
I did my house washing yesterday, It was supposed to be done Spring. so I am very far ahead of 2012 or way late for 2011.

I have made some progress with the Milling Machine, ordered some new Cat 40 tooling. It is eating all of my gyro money for the time being.

Did you post pictures of your new oil tank construction? Did I miss them.? I am going to use a modified Civic Radiator

gyro19xl
11-20-2011, 08:35 AM
Nothing to say Smootchie, just wanted to post something !!!

Hall Effect :smokin:

WHY
11-20-2011, 09:47 AM
Hi Mark

No, have not posted the oil tank pics yet, maybe next couple of days. Needed to get to the point right before welding first, and could not do that until I had finished the "flow test" on the foam plate.

Tony

Friendly
11-20-2011, 12:05 PM
Nothing to say Smootchie, just wanted to post something !!!

Hall Effect :smokin:

Thanks for the blueprints. I'm getting a little better with the CAD

brlcla
11-21-2011, 09:48 AM
Hi Phil

Talked to Randy out at Watcon a few days ago and he had been at some big time jet ski races (nationals I think) he said the Weber's pretty well cleaned house AGAIN. This is real encouraging on reliability. I agree on the plumbing situation about the cooler should be after the oil tank and not before, don't know why they put it before, maybe if I had a better understanding of design it would be clear, but not at this time.

I am slowly getting a good education on the Weber or should I say a fast education but it is sinking in very slowly. I think my next big jump is going to be in getting a understanding about cooling, or BTU conversion and dissapation or how many square inches of what kind of radiator in what kind of air flow will produce how much heat dissapation ect ect. I think this will be a whole "black art" of forumlas and "witches brew"


PS the two stroke power and torque curve hold the answer as to why the lower hp out does them when fed by a turbo



Tony,

Going back through post I have missed over the past few months... I saw this post and here are my thoughts... Polaris puts their oil cooler upstream of the tank the same as Weber does... The oil tank is basically atmospheric and drains into the engine... I do not think there is enough pressure to push oil from the tank to the primary pump inlet on the engine block. Also polaris hoses the oil tank depressure valve to the air intake... I am sure they try to condense as much fuel vapor as they can to keep it in the oil so they do not push fuel vapor into the turbo inlet... compressing fuel vapor is not good either.

Basically I think the scavage pump pressure is needed to push the oil through the cooler... putting it between the tank and primary pump inlet my require an additional pump.

WHY
11-21-2011, 01:08 PM
Michael

Thanks for the post and the opinion, think you may have a very valid point about "pumping" the oil thru the cooler rather than gravity feeding it from the tank--thru the cooler and into the intake of the high pressure pump. Although the scavage pump introduces some air since it is always trying to pump out more that it is getting, it still has at least some pressure to it that would increase the flow thru the cooler, albeit with some drop in cooling efficiency. Will for sure do a gravity flow test from the tank thru the cooler and temporarily use clear hose to the high pressure pump input and watch for cavitation.

Come on guys, what do you all think????

Thanks again for the idea

Tony

Trackwelder
11-21-2011, 04:00 PM
Make sure you use an oil cooler that can handle pressure, one designed for a BMW or a Harley should do it, and contrary to popular opinion Harleys only leak oil if they are put together wrong.

WHY
11-21-2011, 04:15 PM
Hi Eric

The one I have is rated for high pressure, BUT , since it is essentially an "open " system there will probably never be more than 10 lbs pressure on it because of the "ventilation" feature, actually probably not more than 5 lbs.

Tony

WHY
11-21-2011, 07:40 PM
Note to all !!

Super great information on radiator function, design, and cooling, at www.enginebasics.com scroll to bottom of page and click on "engine cooling basics"

Tony

Trackwelder
11-22-2011, 03:24 AM
Not trying to argue, but the scavenging pumps will put out more than that with the engine cold, better safe than sorry. Someone had said there was a problem finding weber engines with the flange, take a look at ebay, they have had a long block for a hydrospace rebuilt under $5000 been up there a couple of months, or maybe it was the reversed head they were troubled by? anyways have fun flying

Brent_Brown
11-22-2011, 05:37 AM
you should be able to get the complete engine for that.

brlcla
11-22-2011, 07:53 AM
you can get a certified rebuilt engine with ecu for $5000... turnkey likely

Canadian Rhino
11-22-2011, 05:17 PM
Tony!
The weber oil pump could suck a golf ball through a garden hose!
Think hydraulics its a gear pump positive dissplacement with relief after pump.
The scavenge pumps are the same exact pumps x 2
The polaris oil cooler is non restrictive plate style cooler.
It would work well on the tank to engine supply feed
Polaris put the cooler ahead of the tank to be able to use a plastic tank in my opinion.
It is not good to condense gas byproducts into your oil in any engine oil system period!
The turbo system pushes the gasses through foam ahead of the air filter so the turbo is not sucking any raw gas at any time.
Do you want to push cold crap to your tank or push hot stuff that can degas for a bit your call!

WHY
11-22-2011, 08:21 PM
HI Phil

ALL VERY VERY VALID POINTS !!! This is like dancing on a sharp picket fence, fortunately , the way I have built and located my tank and located my cooler, there will be no problem to route the hoses for either arrangement. At the moment it is piped to have the cooler after the tank, the cooler is rather large for this size engine, but even with this feature, and the fact that I have the tank setting higher than the snowmobile set up ( the bottom of the tank is just level with the bottom of the valve cover, which should produce a little higher "head pressure" on gravity flow, it still has to flow thru this large oil cooler which is a "multi-passage" type with horizontal flow and small tanks at each end. Oil would flow down from the tank into the cooler, across the cooler, up out of the tank at the end of the cooler, thru a hose about 10 inches long and into the pump input fitting on the engine block. With this set up my concern is that the cooler with only "head pressure" from the elevated tank will flow enough volume of oil thru that cooler (even though it is oversized) to provide a good standing reserve supply to the input of the high pressure pump. I realize the power of hydraulic pumps, but once the oil leaves the block, pressure will be determined by resistance to the flow, the output hose fitting on the block has a ID. of about 1/2 inch so if the hose carrying the oil is 1/2 or larger, then the pressure in the hose should be very low until it encounters some kind of resistance to the high volume of flow, ie the cooler. I'm thinking of this kind of like if you took a garden hose, a "T" fitting and a pressure guage, put the "T" fitting on the water faucet, connected the guage to the side "T" and the garden hose to the straight part of the "T" and had a nozzle on the end of the hose. Open the faucet with the nozzle closed and you will have full line pressure through the hose of about 60 lbs, open the nozzle a little and the pressure will drop some, take the nozzle off and you will have little pressure at the guage or in the hose but still have a higher pressure behind the faucet because of the restriction due to the small flow port in the faucet. So until the water encounters some kind of restriction to the flow out of the hose there will be little pressure after the faucet. This would be like the oil flowing into an open tank that is vented , yes- no ??

Tony

Canadian Rhino
11-23-2011, 07:17 AM
All hydraulic systems draw the oil in through a filter which is far more restrictive than a cooler would be.
Most are the same type of pump as your weber has.
You have to get close to a perfect vacume before cavitation can occur.
Does that help?

brlcla
11-23-2011, 03:19 PM
All hydraulic systems draw the oil in through a filter which is far more restrictive than a cooler would be.
Most are the same type of pump as your weber has.
You have to get close to a perfect vacume before cavitation can occur.
Does that help?

valid point... but most filters in car/truck engines are on the pressure side of the pump... there is a screen on the inlet to the pump submerged into the oil pan but it does not restrict flow much at all... as you see the main filter on the weber is also on the pressure side of the pump...

i think a cooler in the oil line feed is achievable, but just keep an eye on it... npsh is npsh and pumps are not made to suck, they are designed to push. nothing is keeping you from raising the tank higher above the engine if you get a npsh issue though... you are no longer taking the pressure drop on the scavenge pump side so it has a little more pressure to allow it to pump higher...

WHY
11-23-2011, 06:11 PM
Well I can deffinately see an additional "flow test" here at Underwear labs. Will fill the tank with about 3 qts of oil and see how long it takes to flow all (most) of the oil out when it is piped thru the cooler and drained into a pan, Vs flowing into a pan without the oil cooler in line. Don't remember how many "tubes" my cooler has but there is a bunch but they all have "turbulators" in each tube to prevent laminar flow (which reduces cooling efficiency).

Tony

brlcla
11-23-2011, 06:22 PM
turbulent flow is more efficient in transferring heat... turbulent is mixing... so as you cool the outer layer if mixes as it moves... if it were laminar you would be constantly cooling the out layer of the moving fluid basically creating a cold outer with a hot middle...

turbulators also equate to a large amount of pressure drop with viscous fluid

WHY
11-25-2011, 09:03 AM
HI Michael, Your totally right , it is the resistance of the turbulators that I am concerned about with only a gravity pressure on the feed to the input to the pump, am hoping that due to the large number of channels if will not hinder the flow to much. If it does I will go with the cooler on the output of the scavage pump.

Tony

WHY
11-25-2011, 09:13 AM
Don't know if the oil cooler on the sled is a air type or a Laminova, water type. the Laminova type might have lower resistance since it probably would have a greater cooling capacity for its size as compared to the air radiator type. But since my biggest problem is going to be the radiator cooling system I don't want to place the load of oil cooling onto the cooling radiator.

Tony