Pietenpol Autogyro

[cook11]

I had an idea regarding using a Pietenpol fuselage as an Autogyro project. After seeing the two place open cockpit Pitcairn PA-18 I have been hooked on this sort of setup! Using the classical look of the Piet would be similar to the early Cierva C.4 Autogyro. It would be awesome to use the old Model A engine as the powerplant!

[thesultanofscud]

It sounds like a cool idea to me, but I think it goes without saying that the vertical stabilizer would need revision to provide rotor blade tip clearance through the full range of the cyclic.

Looking forward to pictures if you go through with it.

[WHY]

Hi Jonathon

Using a pietenpol fuselage as a basis for a gyro would work for sure, but there would have to be some serious mods. ( I'm using a aircraft fuselage on my tractor) spread the main gear, go to twin lower tails, reinforce the area for mast connections adjust, landing gear position, ect. As for using the old Model A engine , sorry , doubt if it would work since they were low in horsepower and a gyro uses lots of hp. They worked on the fixed wing because of the large wing area and the efficiency of that wing. Were you thinking of single place or two place, two place would probably take at least 125 hp for safe performance.

Tony

[Alan_Cheatham]

Better yet, just leave the wing on and go fly, you'll have better performance than any gyro.
.

[cook11]

A two seater would be my preference. I will have to experiment with some R/C Pietenpol models. Theres just something about the open cockpit idea that appeals to me. The corvair powered version would be a better choice or even a subaru powerplant.

[WHY]

Hi cook11

Your right about the Covair or Subaru, if you have welding skills the steel tube version would even be better.

Tony

[cook11]

Yes I have welding skills and equipment. Like I said before I will need to start with some scaled models and work my way up. The piet has a fairly basic airframe to start off with with plus having the open two seater option is why I chose it as a base. I still need to buy plans for the LW-5 and build one of those!

[WHY]

I have also felt that the Volksplane VP-1 (with modification) would make a good wood fuselage project for a single place , shorted about 20 inches , fixed horizontal stab with low profile twin rudders,different landing gear, 2180 VW with re-drive, beef up the cockpit area where the mast/pylon would mount and you are on your way.

Tony

[cook11]

The VPII with the wider fuselage or the Corben Jr. Ace with it's out rigger gear might be a good base
http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/2/8/8/0619882.jpg
For a nice speedster look what about the tailwind or the hiperbipe?
http://www.airventure.org/awards/images/aircraft/N169WH_wittman_tailwind.jpg
http://www.airventure.org/awards/images/2006/NX72DD.JPG
http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/9/9/7/0242799.jpg

[cook11]

Or it might be easier to build the LW-5 ;-)

[WHY]

Hi cook 11

Your getting real serious with that Corben Jr. Ace.

Tony

[giro5]

For you pietenpol to gyro guys: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Barn-Find-Experimental-Single-Seat-Project-No-Reserve_W0QQitemZ140384602115QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMo tors_Aircraft?hash=item20af930803

[Mike Jackson]

Sure like this thread. I've considered all the previous. I like the VP1 mod idea! It's the mating of the 6061 mast to a wood structure that needs serious consideration. It's been done. As I write, I am looking at a 7/10 replica of a Cierva C-30 built in Spain. It was featured in one of the Rotorcraft mags a number of years ago.

I've always thought some of the WWI replica aircraft using round AL tubing might be a way to go. Jim Mayfield was working on a Cierva type using the Murphey biplane fuselage and the Rotec radial engine. Don't know where this project stands. Beautiful workmanship.

[scottessex]

There were a couple of Tractor gyros under construction here on the forum a couple of years ago, but all has been quiet lately. Hmmm, I wonder if they are still being built?

[brett s]

I've always thought that a Graham Lee Nieuport 11 fuselage could make an interesting conversion.

[WHY]

Well it's nice to see interest in the tractor

First I'll try to answer some comments on some of the ideas, Mike, on the VP-1 fuselage you would want to add a pylon or tower to the fuselage rather than just a mast, this would really be no problem you would need to use a doubler on the upper portion of the seat bulkhead and a doubler on the insturment panel bulkhead and use doublers on the vertical risers at these locationes to carry the load all the way down to the lower longerons, also you would want to add extra doublers to the lower longeron in the cockpit area between these two bulkhead and then use a different landing gear. You could shorten the fuselage by one full bay at the tail since you willl not need all of that length to stabilize the inertia of VERY long wings, add a fixed stab and either a dorsal fin into the cut down rudder (two piece, not full flying) or twin low profile rudders and probably at least a engine of 75 hp , the VW that flew the plane will in no way fly the gyro.

Scott, probably the tractors that were being built some time ago are still under construction, that is one thing that anyone considering a tractor should keep in mind, tractors require a lot of work and construction. My personal experience should really not count as I am SUPER slow (started drawing 18 years ago and started building 3 years ago) so I'm not a good reference, but it is going to take a lot more time than the basic open frame pusher, you had better REALLY WANT TO BUILD IT.

Brett, I looked a long time at some of the WW I UL replicas that use round aluminum tubing that is "pop" riveted together and I just could not accept the method of construction. Basic pop rivets (non-aircraft spec) do a wonderful job in the limited way they were designed for but putting a rivet thru a round tube is to me trouble looking for a place to happen. first when you put a hole in a round tube you really create a week point in the structual integrity of the tube and secondly a concave or convex surface does not allow the rivet to get a "perfect" seat, and for me I would really hate to have some rivets work loose after a while (after I had put a lot of time in on it) and require that I have to cut some fabric to correct it or start to rebuild some part of the structure. With that said, my structure is riveted angle aluminum and at the present is "totally assembled with hardware store pop rivets" they are great for modeling or experimenting and prototyping because the drill out easy when you make a mistake, on my fuselage EVERY HARDWARE STORE RIVET will be drilled (1/8 inch) and replaced with a solid 5/32 or in some cases a bolt. If a pop rivet is absolutely necessary it will be a aircraft avex and THEY ARE EXPENSIVE !!!!


Tony

[brett s]

I agree with you on the hardware store pop-riveted aluminum tubing - welded 4130 would be my choice :)

[cook11]

Anyone have any pictures/articles of the Cierva C.30 scaled replica? I remember seeing pictures of it about a year ago but can no longer find them?

[Alan_Cheatham]

Anyone have any pictures/articles of the Cierva C.30 scaled replica? I remember seeing pictures of it about a year ago but can no longer find them?

Try this thread here: http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19635

In fact, this thread is a rehash of what was said in the other thread with many of the same players, so we should really call this one "Here we go again with the tractor gyro thing". :D
.

[WHY]

cook11

Jonathan, that Corben Jr. ace you show in post #9 is one that I had forgotten about. It would be an excellent one for a 2 place side by side. The fuselage attach point for the wings are a natural for locating a 4 point pylon with a slider head from Ernie and maybe shock mount the whole pylon at the attach points on the fuselage, you could even use a aircraft engine if you wanted, would probably take at least a 0-200 or even a 0-320 and 27 ft blades for good performance. The tail would be the biggest design change to the fuselage, whether you would go with a choppen single with a dorsal fin or low slung twins would be the big decision .

Have never seen a Corben Jr. Ace project for sale anywhere in recent memory. Don't know who sells the plans, maybe they are available from EAA. After seeing the Corben It think it might be a better go than the Piet, since it has great gear under it to start with.

Tony

PS you could even hang a ROTEC RADIAL ON IT

[gyroplanes]

Have never seen a Corben Jr. Ace project for sale anywhere in recent memory. Don't know who sells the plans, maybe they are available from EAA. After seeing the Corben It think it might be a better go than the Piet, since it has great gear under it to start with.

Tony

PS you could even hang a ROTEC RADIAL ON IT

Try e-mailing this lady, Grace, rc2frk@aol.com she had one in her barn several years ago. Her late husband had a small Continental on it when I saw it.

[WHY]

SIC' EM Jonathan, there you go , one half built

Tony

[Mike Jackson]

Thanks for the input Tony. I have given some thought wrt to pylon designs and fuselage interface much along the points you brought up. One design idea - why reinvent the wheel (STS)? We know the basic Bensen design works reasonably well based on long years of experience (structure and mast vib/flex). Why not build your tractor's main load bearing structure and mast as combinations if 6061 Al 2x2s, 1x2s etc. Turn the Bensen around, lenghthen this/shorten that and don't forget to change the thrust direction! Now take your material of choice - round tube, wood, angle, whatever and mate it to your proven Bensen mod to produce your replica look - making every attempt to keep it light.

I also like the idea of covering with a Dacron sail cloth ala the Snedden M7 - nylon-tied to the wings and fuselage as featured in the Feb 2010 issue of EAA's Sport Aviation.

WRT to tailwheels - I love the look of old classic tailwheel designs. For those apprehensive - build a nose wheel. Chuck's msg wrt to main wheels and CG is spot on. In a FW your game face needs to come on as the machine decelerates and rudder effectiveness diminishes. Auto gyros have the ability to have little or no rollout but if there is any rollout and touchdown is crabbed - you've invited a possible ground loop/roll over. I have never taken off in a tail wheeled autogyro but imagine it could be challenging to keep the ground roll straight - especially up to rudder effectiveness. One of my instructors, Charlie Mara, found his Pitbull a handful on T.O.

[Alan_Cheatham]

One problem faced with tractor gyro designers is the decision of where and how to interface the mast to the fuselage and all too often their decision, which is a compromise, is to place the mast directly in front of the pilot. To me, staring at a two inch wide piece of tubing while flying is an unacceptable distraction even if it does simplify the design, so sometimes extra complexity is a necessary evil in order to achieve certain design goals.

As far as taildragger verses tricycle gear goes both have pros and cons, I have the LittleWing video and see no problems with their ground handling.

.

[Mike Jackson]

Hi Alan,

I think the mast in front of your view would hardly be noticed after a short period of time. To me, most of my flying is not viewed at 12 O:clock anyway but rather looking around most of the time - especially while turning or just plain sightseeing.

I owned an old classic biplane (Tiger Moth) for over 16 years. When piloting in back (always), the front of the machine provides very little view. Your always looking out the sides. For landing, like most bipes, you're looking at both sides thru the wings to gauge depth and keep your nose and tracking straight thru touchdown. Becomes 2nd nature after a while.

Cheers,

Mike

[helipaddy]

Or maybe a flitzer fuselage..

http://www.flitzerbiplane.com/images/Rupert/gerda.jpg

[WHY]

Helipaddy

your mean !!

Tony

[Brent_Brown]

looks like a kitfox made into a gyro I would make a tri gear one.

[WHY]

Hi helipaddy

Do you know what the type of construction that flitzer is ?? Looks like it would be a good one to hang a Yamha on or a Weber 750

Tony

[helipaddy]

Hi Tony
Heres a link to construction pics of the Fliltzer, its basically a spuce frame covered in ply.


http://www.flitzerbiplane.com/Pictures.shtml

http://www.flitzerbiplane.com/images/JanezCestnik/les1.jpg

[WHY]

Hi Padraic

Well you certainly picked a winner by suggesting the Flitzer as a possible fuselage for a gyro conversion. At the very onset it should be stated that this would not be a job for a amateur or inexperienced woodworker. But with that said it sure is a natural for the experimental minded who can work wood, a good knowledge of wood, glue and required invironment tempetures are absolutely necessary.

It is obvious that this plane has a great following especially in Europe also a GREAT added feature is the wide varity of variations and ENGINES that have already been used succesfuly on this plane , which gives the experimenter a good base to work from with his prefference on design and engine combinations. The main landing gear would still need major re-design, way to narrow and maybe to tall, but this fuselage would really be aerodynamic for a "open cockpit" design, the tail would also need to be re-designed but then the word is "experimental" right?

And last but not least by any means is that it appears there is a greaat "builder support team" behind this model which would be of great help to a experimenter as I am SURE they would love to see a "new" variation of the plane ,-------Good show !!!!

Tony

[helipaddy]

Hi Tony
I have the plans for the Flitzer, the drawings are exceptional. The only thing that would worry me is the weight. There are specific areas of the fuselage that are beefed up for the wing attach etc that could be lightned, but there are other areas ( mast attachment etc) that would need a serious look at structurally.

I would love to see a tractor gyro close to this shape, but to get any performance you would have to "simplify and add lightness"

Paddy

[WHY]

Hi Padraic

I don't think the wing attach areas would be or should be lightened, but the vertical supports where the cabane strut attaches would want to be doubled so as to carry the load of the mast/pylon all the way down to the lower longerons or any other point where a mast/pylon would attach. The attach point where the landing gear may even need to be beefed up , but as far as the weight of the craft, ----- well look at some of those engines they are----- no problem. I would say anything from 80 hp on up would work .

The big area of design work would be the tail , if you stayed with the single tail I would run a dorsal fin from the back of the cockpit all the way to the cut down rudder and then even add tip plates to the HS.

My question to you is, since you have the plans, you are obviously familiar with the plane, how do you think the "support group" would take to someone trying to make a gyro from it ??????? Also do you think there wuld be very many experiminters willing to work in wood ?????

Tony

[WHY]

I am thinking it would take a group effort to get the first one built ?????

Tony

[WHY]

also do you know if there are any kit parts available or is it a total scratch build.

Tony

[helipaddy]

Tony
there is a Yahoogroup for the flitzer that is very active with builders, and Lynn Williams the designer replies frequently. It would be worth posting on this and see what reception you get. Lynn is a very dedicated enthusistic designer who knows his stuff.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Flitzer-Builders/

the Flitzer is a very well designed machine that flies very well on 60-80hp when it has wings. I believe the landing gear would be plenty strong enough. The flitzer Goblin may be the variant that you would look at as its designed for lighter weight:

http://www.flitzerbiplane.com/Goblin.shtml

http://www.flitzerbiplane.com/images/Goblin/PolishGoblin2.jpg


There is a metal fittings kit that is really not needed for a gyro version:

http://www.waseyaeroplanes.com/

Heres a link to a wood pack for the fuselage:

http://www.aircraftplywoodandtimber.co.uk/flitzer_Z21.html


Heres a link to the fuselage construction:

http://members.iinet.net.au/~hawk1/page5.html



http://www.flitzerbiplane.com/images/Goblin/KesslerGoblin5View.jpg

[WHY]

Hi Padraic

Thanks for the links in post # 36 , they show that a fuselage wood kit is available by itself ,as well as the tail parts , that's good. I'm assuming these are from England ?

Freight might be a bit of a problem though.

Also I see the support group is really good.

Tony

[helipaddy]

Hi Tony
Theres a wood cutting list here:

http://www.flitzerbiplane.com/CutListRoundTail.shtml

and here:

http://www.aircraftplywoodandtimber.co.uk/Resources/SATCo_Flitzer_Z21_round_tail.doc

these do not include the plywood sheet

[WHY]

HI Padraic

Went to the sites in the post and sure do like the way they break down the kits, also went to the Volksplane site, and was just swamped with the number of build sites and blogs on the construction of the VP-1 , they claim over 10500 sets of plans sold and claim the simplest construction, but it is sure not as pretty as the Flitzer. Also I do not find any source other than Aircraft spruce supply that carries the kit and it is not broken down into as many kits as the Flitzer, which means no "fuselage only" kit , you would just have to get the plans (for around $60 ) and spec out the basic materials individually.

Tony

Thanks again for the info

[helipaddy]

I have the plans for the Volksplane too, ( I'm a bit of a plans collector). The VP1 is seriously overbuilt ant the Fuselage is goin to be real heavy. The best thing to do to price the flitzer fuselage in the US is to go to the Aircraft Spruce site here (http://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/wp/spruce.html) and input the wood cutting list into the site and see what price you come up with.

I would join the flitzer yahoogoup and run the idea by Lynn Williams has to say about the tractor gyroplane idea using the lines of the flitzer fuselage.

[WHY]

While I have been a real advocate of using a "fixed wing fuselage" as a foundation for a gyro, I think it is only fair to say that if the original designer of the "fixed wing" is still around or some one who is still marketing the plans , that you should think long and hard about going to this person and seeking advice on "changing their plans" to make a gyro out of it.

First of all you have to consider that you are now "messing with their baby" and I know I would not like some one asking me what I thought about making serious changes to there long hard work and design, I might be inclined to tell them very clearly. Yet others might not mind at all, I know I would not like it.

Padaric has mentioned the Flitzer and I have mentioned the VP-1 Volksplane. I know the Bud Evans (the designer of the VP-1) is very opposed to airframe alterations, after all he put a great amount of time and effort into the engineering of the airplane and he is a engineer. So I would take the project on soley to myself. Other designers may feel the same way.

I feel the above comments are just a consideration and courtesy to the original designers

[WHY]

As a follow up to the above post, the main reasons that I advocate the use of fixed wing fuselages, especially ones made from wood, is that it has often been mentioned about the costs of building airframes from metal, wood may not be alot cheaper but it may be a little more friendly to work with and tools may be a little less expensive to obtain.

One thing for sure there will be a lot of work involved, it will not be a "just add water and stir" project. Many great designs came out of Europe as it seems they are comfortable with wood working, now when it comes to "molded" plywood, that may be another story, The VP-1 was just about the "ultitmate" in simplicity.

The other part of the story is the engine, many of the designs used the VW ingine (1600 or 1835 cc) while the gyro would need most likely a 2180 or bigger but none the less a tried and proven engine that is well know and a lot of people have experience with them AND they are not so expensive , again a way to reduce costs . The bottom line is are we in the gyro world willing to put in the kind of work the fixed wing guys do to get what we want.

Tony

[WHY]

Well it's been a interesting day, went to the webb link , www.autogiro.be/ (suggested by Giorgos on another thread) and then went to Forum Australia at the bottom of the page, and then went to the tractor gyroplanes thread on that page and found that my idea of using a Peitenpol fuselage as a foundation for gyro was a long way from being first.

Seems a chap from Australia named John Evans thought of it way back in Dec of 2004, and started working on it but could not find any post on the build much later than the original post and comments. Wonder how it worked out.

There were some other very interesting projects under way but do not find any later post on them , maybe they are just time consuming, like I just finnished making the strut end fittings for the drag struts on my landing gear (four of them) and it only has taken me about a month ( but I'm slow)

Tony

[cheeky]

looks like a kitfox made into a gyro I would make a tri gear one.

They heard you.... And they did! :~)
http://microlighters.co.za/download/file.php?id=15759&sid=06a405233a0e66e0854a5cbd10fe446b&mode=view

Wagtail (http://wagtail.co.za) also are the manufacturers of the rotor system and prerotator for the Phenix tractor gyro from Spain.

[Brent_Brown]

So how do they like it compaired to the tail wheel?