Gary Goldsberry [Archive] - Rotary Wing Forum

jamiebodie

10-06-2004, 05:19 PM

Could the next person to post please answer this question, perhaps it could be Chuck since he seems omnicient these days. Why would Gary withhold the paperwork that 3 board members asked for over and over again and then supply it to MJ. No offense and great work getting it MJ, but maybe Gary withheld this information in an effort to make those on the BOD that he didn't want on the board to give up on waiting and quit.

Now let me break down this sweetheart deal Chuck has dreamed up. The PRA ended up paying me $150/month to maintain the website. That is $450/quarter. Now let's talk about my side business, not my real job, but my DJ business. I charge $795.00 for a four hour wedding reception. Let's see, I can make more money in one Saturday afternoon that in 5 months of serving as the webmaster of the PRA website and you think I give a crap about losing this "sweetheart of a deal?" Doing the PRA website was done as a service to help the PRA, I offered to give it up and the board accepted my offer. I do regret that the PRA website now sucks. It may not have been great when I had it, but at least it was useful.

I am thankful to the PRA for offering me the opportunity to do the website. When I took over the site Liz and I really needed the money and it was very helpful when I was still in school, after school I kept the position to help out the PRA and it was much more work than the pay would support.

Did Chuck mention that when I was elected to the PRA BOD a conflict of interest was mentioned and I offered at that point to step down as the webmaster? My offer was declined. So let's reflect, my sweetheart deal really wasn't very great at all and I offered to step down before I took my position on the BOD. Sorry Chuck, wrong again. You really should stick with numbers, you seem to be a better judge of formulas than people.

Heron

10-07-2004, 04:16 AM

Well . . .by now I think more people are looking at my "provocative statement" that PRA as it stand sucks!
The whole affair "The hidden papers" is just a sample of what is wrong and it has taken way to much time and casualties to get closer to any positive action in the part of the elected leaders.
After all is said and done, wouldn't be better that the hand at the helm sail the ship to calmer waters?
There is a crack on the vase and someone with skills can do a better job on restauration.
NOt a single proposal from both forums came to be discussed and implemented in case of approval.
What is up with that?
Heron

barnstorm2

10-07-2004, 05:28 AM

"But no good deed goes unpunished"

Well put Chuck.

Jamie, I was not at your board meetings. However, judging by the style of your posts and the emails that were sent around after the first thread started up I am inclined to believe there is more motivation at work here then you looking after the best interest of the PRA and it's members. You appear to be looking for something wrong wherever you can. A truly concerned person would offer solutions and constructive criticism. The picture I see painted by your posts and email portray what appear to be the efforts of someone with an axe to grind.

Instead of constructive criticism and civil discourse you have and even after all of this still prefer to sling mud rather then take the high road. This does not set the stage for a positive outcome no matter what the findings would have been. For crying out loud if someone put their personal assets on the line for me I sure as hell would have had some respect and thanks even if I did have questions about the paperwork. The paperwork that is available free and online should be enough for an educated business person to understand the processes the benefactor setup was with council and in our best interest. That is if the PRA's best interest was our motivation!

Why didn't you come out saying, "Sorry for all the mistrust, boy I'm sure glad that everything was setup according to legal council, It sure is great that the PRA has people that will risk so much for the good of us all even if they are slow on the paperwork portions that weren't available online."?

Rather, it SEEMS as if you just went down the list to find the next thing to complain about.

What if there were a better way to do the paperwork then the PRA's legal council came up with? But none the less the best intrests were still at heart? What then? Would you have made civil and constructive posts and suggestions to resolve issues or would you have gone off like a loose cannon? Based on what has been posted so far and the tone used I have a good guess. Just what do you think Gary or anyone else would get or benefit from if done otherwise?

One minute you cut down Randy and say the point is:"The point is that the paperwork is set up properly to ensure that ownership of the PRA airport rests on the PRA and it's members and not on PRA Mentone without PRA Mentone being under the direction of the PRA." Then with out so much as a golly I guess it was alright all along and the point is finally settled, Gary has done us well by underwriting the airport and being wise enough to setup things right" YOU change 'the point' to Gary must have witheld the paperwork to get you off of the board!

My mother used to tell me: "If you want to find something wrong, and you are determined enough, you will.... even if it exists or not".

Heron, The PRA sucks? I don’t think so. But I guess you do. I think it sucks when people just point fingers and say things suck but other people are doing all the work to keep things running and make it better. Your mending fences was a much better post and what I was hopeing would be posted by Jamie.

donshoebridge

10-07-2004, 09:45 AM

For crying out loud...

This was the exact thought I had when I saw this mess start up again, but I wasn't quite sure how to use it in a sentence. :)

Rando

10-07-2004, 11:07 AM

Time to put this one to rest, once and for all!

Heron

10-07-2004, 01:59 PM

Don
"The PRA Sucks" is just a moto, my croocked way to say we need more.
It is not a statement based in facts, just propaganda to entice people I know many people work hard and out of love for us and I am always thankfull and I say it here all the time.
I have presented many programs and I even like to run at least one.
I could go and work directly whith the PRA and make things happen a little faster, I just want them to be here and respond to us, publicly and officialy.
E-mails do not work well so far.
Don't be mad about my sarcastic way, it is just smoke.
Heron

C. Beaty

10-07-2004, 02:38 PM

Heron, you remind me of a dog chasing a car. You don't know why you're chasing it and don't know what you'd do with it if you caught it.

Heron

10-07-2004, 03:35 PM

Wanna bet?

Rotornut

10-07-2004, 03:58 PM

I have never had any Ill Feelings towards any PRA Member! With that said, I am not sure what went on in the PRA Board Meeting, but I do know that we cannot let this hardship take its toll on PRA Period!

We all Belong to a Organiztion and as Members it is our Duty to help or be there when PRA needs us. I would never hesitate to help at Any Fly-In I attended if I was asked.

I Enjoy this Sport, Hobby, I dont care to be a Pilot, I like to fly in Gyros when I am in the BACK. lol I do read lots and I understand some, but without an interest to be the Pilot I dont care to learn ALL.

What ever happened between Maxie, Dan, and the Board I am still UNSURE! Is it my business, well yes as I am a Very Active Member in PRA. But will I pry maybe, Maxie is a Very Open and Honest Person, Dan is also, Both in my Eyes are FAMILY. I wish I knew all that happened, but some how I dont think I could help or even if it would solve anything.

I Trust GARY GOLDSBERRY, with that said I will always back him and vote for him. I have never been lied to by Gary or snowballed that I am aware of. Anytime I speak with Gary he is very Open Honest and willing to Talk. He has helped Richard and Myself and Sunstate many times over. We can always count on him, as I expect out of the Prez. And he never lets us down.

Chuck, Godda love him! He may come across as braisin and brash but he really does know history and its roots. I relay on Chuck more than he even knows.

To All PRA Members Keep current with your Dues, We are Strong in Numbers!!

Sure wish I was at ROC :(

MJ :)

Rando

10-07-2004, 04:05 PM

Yeah! MJ for Prez!

barnstorm2

10-07-2004, 05:06 PM

Well said MJ and Randy! I wish I were able to attend ROC too. Guess I have to start aiming for Bensen Days. How is Watchula doing?

Heron

10-07-2004, 06:08 PM

She gets my vote too!
Heron :)

C. Beaty

10-07-2004, 07:00 PM

MJ, our truculent trio served on the PRA BOD for quite a few years with nary a problem over airport ownership as long as the cash was flowing their way.

Only after Gary turned off the spigot did the accusations begin flying; implicit accusations are equally as insulting as explicit accusations.

If you think the timing of those accusations was mere coincidence, then you might be interested in a bridge I own in Brooklyn.

Pore Old Maxie, as far as I know, wasn't on the take; he was merely a patsy.

Rotornut

10-08-2004, 03:15 AM

Chuck, I dont know if it was coincidence or not. As for who got any money from PRA for what ever purpose I dont know of it. Sunstate gets no money from PRA as I am sure other chapters dont.

I add members to PRA and Sunstate at BD Days and I enjoy doing it, as it adds to MY Family. Years back Sunstate paid for the printing cost of Membership sign up forms for PRA, but since Gary found that out 3 yrs ago we now get the forms from PRA to sign up members.

What the Beef is between Dan and the PRA, I do know some about that, but not all. As for Maxie I have no clue what all his beef is.

As for the Prez Gary I think he has and is doing a Great Job, or should we say as well as can be expected. As you know and others being in charge and the Prez is not a Blessing!

We would love to see you back at the Helm of Sunstate Chuck.

Davie Seace has made a very good VP for Sunstate and I hope he continues on, and one day takes the Prez job. Change is good, and could lead to a stronger Chapter.

Bud O'Neal can never be replaced he was Awesome! He stays in touch with Sunstate and gives his advise and ideas freely, which we always Welcome. His shoes can never be filled. But he will always be a Active Member and Family Member to all Sunstate Members

I Dont Want Any of This BS to Get Out of CONTROL Again! Some questions have been answered and others are not worth looking for the answers. I am not one to nit pick or look for problems that I dont see.

This is what I want from all PRA MEMBERS. Friendship, Concern, Loyalty, Honesty, and Help if they can, and for all to remember the shoe could be on our foot as well as anyone elses.

GARY SAFRIT Thank You Very Much for your Kind Donation to Sunstate for the Showers and Shed and Signs, BD Days Forms Etc. Gary is a Very Active Member in Sunstate and he lives in SC. Comes to at least 3 or more of our Fly-Ins a Year and is always willing to help Sunstate in setting up and breaking down at our Fly-Ins. We are very Happy to have Gary as a Sunstate Member. We meet Gary 6yrs ago and he is a very happy go lucky guy, who just wants to enjoy the sport of Flying.

Well enough said maybe to much as Catfish would tell me. lol

MJ :)

gyrodude

10-09-2004, 06:23 AM

I'm in the Charlotte N.C. area not S.C. If I can be of any other help let me know.

jamiebodie

10-09-2004, 06:19 PM

Tim, there is no axe to grind I am just worn down from fighting to try and get to the truth. Sorry if I come across as rude, but I am tired of working my butt of to obtain simple information. Not only this issue but many others as well. I wish you could have made it to ROC.

Chuck, for someone who is interested in the truth you sure spead a lot of BS. I asked this same question 100 times before I offered to step down as the webmaster, I never changed the question and have never stopped searching for the answer. You ignore the obvious truth and mangle it with your nonsense. You should stop before you loose credibility on the subjects you know about and the ones that could save someone's life.

As for everyone else, believe what you want about my motives. Those who actually know me don't have any question.

I just left ROC and we had a great time, wish all of you could have been there.

Jamie

donshoebridge

10-10-2004, 06:38 AM

For anyone that would like to hear the other side of this topic, but more importantly, the root cause of this BS, please contact Glenn Bundy and/or Pam Bundy. They can be contacted at the PRA phone number which is on your PRA membership card. Sorry Herron, I guess you can't call.

We're only getting is part of the story from those that are posting.

jamiebodie

10-10-2004, 10:20 AM

Don, the root cause is poor dissemination of information. I hope that Pam and Glenn keep in mind that they are representatives of the PRA and that any false slanderous information/opinion that comes from them can be directly linked to the PRA itself. You know, like the information that I wanted to sue the PRA after my accident. Any more of this crap and I will need to get my legal representation involved.

I am smiling as I write this and have no hard feelings towards anyone as I type.

When someone calls for the information that Don spoke of above please ask if I can sell/give away my life membership to the PRA. If I can't I guess I will just have to stick around awhile. This infomation doesn't seem to be covered in the by-laws and I can't remember if it was covered when I became a life member.

Still smiling.

Jamie

Heron

10-10-2004, 01:15 PM

C,mon Jamie . . .making you give up the fight is not part of the adversary's plans?
The accusations Don posted here (for those who can read, a comma is a letter) have now to be adressed as the other issue was.
If you are satisfied with the outcome and see the end of your quest for the airport status as of now and we can clear all the innuendos, you and the others can step up again and run for the control on the PRA BOD.
If things were justa a mishap (I do not think so) than we should go back to working together, right?
Heron (incomunicado by reason of funds)

Rotornut

10-10-2004, 05:07 PM

Heron, Please we all need to WORK TOGETHER Now and Always! If not we All LOOSE.
MJ :(

GyroRon

10-10-2004, 05:39 PM

I trust Gary, I voted for him in this years election. I also trust Jamie Maxie and Dan. In the end this is a bunch of bull and bottom line is if the board HAD worked together in a professional manner none of this would be here for us to discuss.

At this point in time, this discussion has turned into a Dick measuring contest and there is no winner.

So take it from Mr. King....... Can't we all just get along? :)

jamiebodie

10-10-2004, 07:38 PM

Well said Ron.

donshoebridge

10-11-2004, 04:14 AM

The accusations Don posted here...

Accusations? I don't see any "accusations" in my previous post.

I hope that Pam and Glenn keep in mind that they are representatives of the PRA and that any false slanderous information/opinion that comes from them can be directly linked to the PRA itself. You know, like the information that I wanted to sue the PRA after my accident. Any more of this crap and I will need to get my legal representation involved.

Oh, I see now. It's ok for you, Dan and Maxie to throw a fit about some drummed up BS. But if anyone else opens their mouth, you're going to sue them, is that it?!?!? Give it rest Jamie!

I don't know who made the comment about you suing the PRA, and it doesn't really matter. Threads such as this are nothing more than a bunch of lip service! You're pissed off about one thing or another and most people could care less.

I really don't have any idea what the hell you, Dan or Maxie expect to gain from all of the constant bitching. I really don't know! But I do know what the end result has been. Lost membership. Is that your justification for continuing this crap? Why is the airport ownership such a thorn in your side? If flying gyros is tops on your list, then It shouldn't matter who owns the airport.

Your words and actions make it sound as if you're jealous of the fact that the airport is up here, and not down south. Or that you think the PRA owes you something because of your accident. Or that you think you can do a better job with the convention. Whatever it is doesn't matter. But if you want a private airport, then go get one. If you think the PRA owes you something then sue. Or if you think you can do a better job with the convention, then put one on yourself. But please do one of the 2; 1) either quit bitching and get over it, or 2) do something about it other than bitching on the forum, because most of the people up here could care less about who owns the airport!

madmax

10-11-2004, 05:01 AM

MJ wrote

I have never had any Ill Feelings towards any PRA Member!

Comon MJ!!

We know that is not true. I seem to remember that when you heard that Mike, Jamie and I were paid for the entertainment at the Texas PRA convention, you were very mad and very verbal about it. The thing is that I never have received any money for that or anything else from the PRA. But if you and Chuck think that it's coming I'll start looking for it. I don't recall getting an apology from you about that nor have I heard from Jamie or Mike that you gave them one.

It was believed that the PRA never paid for entertainment at the conventions. The truth is we paid $1,000.00 for the fireworks show the year before from Glenn and his buddies. Remember? The one that took place after everyone had left to get something to eat because there was no food at the Banquet. I'm sure we got our moneys worth even thou there were not many people there to see it.

Dana Bowman was paid some where around $4,500.00 to speak at the convention the next year. Oh yea, his fee was much more but the PRA refused to pay him his full amount, of course this was decided after his presentation. If you doubt this , contact your favorite CFI Steve.

This year we are so financially stable that we could afford to pay $2,000.00 for the entertainment at the convention. Yes another fireworks show from Glenn and his buddies. We must be doing well because the sweetheart deals the Chuck keeps referring to seem to be nothing compared to this. Funny how you never hear of anything but the bad Texas deal.

I do want you to know that I am very pleased that the wife of a member can get a copy of the corp. papers when the Board members can not. In record time too. What a deal! It looks like we only need a President and the members wives to run the show, why have a Board at all?

Also can you tell me why any one should have to make a phone call to the PRA office to get ( the truth ). Could it be that if it were posted here they would have to be able to back up what they wrote? I just wonder!!!

PS
I still have not received a copy of these papers. Why not post them here so we who are interested can print them out and take them to the people we trust to look them over? Or are they for your eyes only?

madmax

10-11-2004, 05:07 AM

[QUOTE=donshoebridge]

most of the people up here could care less about who owns the airport!

We know!

chuter

10-11-2004, 05:25 AM

Speaking as a member who is trying to be part of starting a local group/club/whatever, and this group deciding if we want to be a PRA chapter;
right now the PRA looks like such a giant clusterf**k, who the hell would want to be part of it? :confused:

I asked for info about becoming a chapter several weeks ago, nothing so far.

We had our local get together this past weekend and the vote was overwhelmingly (but not unanimous) to NOT become a chapter.

From what I can tell all you get from becoming a PRA chapter is a lot of paperwork to do and not much else. The only positive thing I can see is that the chapter would be listed on the piss-poor PRA website so people could find you.

Maybe the PRA should take some of the money spent on "entertainment" and hire a professional to do the website? :cool:

Tired of all this BS. :mad:

C. Beaty

10-11-2004, 06:10 AM

Sorry to hear that you didn't get your cut for performing in Texas, Maxie. Pam told me the check was made payable to Mike Gibson, Jamie's partner.

madmax

10-11-2004, 08:16 AM

Thats OK Chuck!! I didn't know I was getting paid untill you told me.

jamiebodie

10-11-2004, 03:03 PM

Sorry to hear that you didn't get your cut for performing in Texas, Maxie. Pam told me the check was made payable to Mike Gibson, Jamie's partner.

Chuck your senility pills have stopped working. No, you are just flat out lying, yes, I am calling you a liar. You know as well as I do that Mike and I are not now partners, nor were we partners when the convention was in Texas. You also know that I did not receive any of that money. It seems that when somepeople have nothing to add that has basis in fact they just start slinging crap, like you are doing now. Chuck, when you feel like you are beginning to loose an argument you begin to fight dirty don't you?

Now on to the sorely mislead Don

Don wrote what is in italics and I will counter point by point in plain font and plain English, not that he will understand it this time either, but I will try again for everyone's sake.

I don't know who made the comment about you suing the PRA, and it doesn't really matter. Threads such as this are nothing more than a bunch of lip service! You're pissed off about one thing or another and most people could care less.

Don, it was Glenn who made the comment about me suing the PRA according to what I have been told, and yes we are pissed because we asked to see paperwork that should be available to any member, let alone a board member, over a year and a half ago and still haven't seen it.

I really don't have any idea what the hell you, Dan or Maxie expect to gain from all of the constant bitching.

We expect to see the paperwork that we have asked for all along.

I really don't know! But I do know what the end result has been. Lost membership.

I know, I would have thought that these papers would be delivered without all of this bickering, but Gary just won't send them.

Is that your justification for continuing this crap? Why is the airport ownership such a thorn in your side? If flying gyros is tops on your list, then It shouldn't matter who owns the airport.

It matters who owns the airport if I never fly again, because I am a lifetime member of the PRA and I want to know that my assets are being properly protected. Our questions have never changed, only the accusations against us have changed. Very similar to your post where attention is diverted from the truth and twisted up in accusations that have nothing to do with the issue at hand. Just like Chuck has been doing.

Your words and actions make it sound as if you're jealous of the fact that the airport is up here, and not down south.

Think about it, just the opposite is true, I am trying to protect the PRA assets, or at least make sure they have already been protected. You are trying to put a spin on BS and take attention away from the point at hand.

Or that you think the PRA owes you something because of your accident.

No, if that were the case I would have filled out the paperwork that was sent to us by a group of lawyers in IN. We didn't ask for it they came to us, we said no thanks. Think you would have done the same?

Or that you think you can do a better job with the convention.

I have no complaints about how the convention is run.

Whatever it is doesn't matter. But if you want a private airport, then go get one. If you think the PRA owes you something then sue. Or if you think you can do a better job with the convention, then put one on yourself. But please do one of the 2; 1) either quit bitching and get over it, or 2) do something about it other than bitching on the forum, because most of the people up here could care less about who owns the airport!

This is a big one so I will approach it slowly, if I wanted an airport I could have bought on less than a year ago. I will stop bitching when the paperwork becomes available to Maxie and myself. You know it is not our fault for bitching, if they had simply done the right thing a long time ago there would be nothing to bitch about.

Don wrote: because most of the people up here could care less about who owns the airport

That is what scares me and makes me try to look out for people like ya'll up there.

Don, here is one question for you. Why wasn't this paperwork made available to us when we asked for it over a year and a half ago?

I am still smiling and hope no ones takes any offense to anything that I have written.

C. Beaty

10-11-2004, 04:33 PM

From:
"Pam Bundy" <prahq@medt.com> Save Address Reminder
To: <cabeaty@att.net>
Subject: RE: Things I want answers to!
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 14:38:13 +0000 [View Source]

Chuck,
I'm still looking for all my proof to back myself up with but, in the meantime, here is what I remember. I received an itemized detail of who and what was paid for, with the monies that P.R.A. fronted to the Texas Chapter in 2002. A check for either $600. or $800. was paid to Mike Gibson (Jamie's buddy), for the entertainment in Texas. Now, whether or not Mike paid Jamie or Maxie anything remains to be seen. If Mike did pay them, then that is why Jamie can honestly say, "PRA didn't pay him one thin dime". Cute, huh?
I'll get back to you about this when I find my facts. I'm not done with these guys yet.

GyroRon

10-11-2004, 04:56 PM

Chuck, as my comment above where I indicated I voted for Gary in the election this Summer, it should be noted that I am not taking sides in this contest.

BUT.....

What difference does it make if Jamie or Dan or Maxie or Mike Gibson got paid for entertainment? Or for that matter a web site, or TV show or etc....?????

Are you saying that no other board members recieve money from the PRA for their services?

Are you saying or hinting that the Georgia boys are just starting trouble and making rumors cause their PRA incomes got cut or cancelled?

I guess what I would like to know is what is your point exactly, without the Heron type dodging of the facts that most of your comments to this topic has been. In other words just come out and say what is on your mind. Please.

barnstorm2

10-11-2004, 04:58 PM

Jamie, you have done far more damage then your 'investment' that you are 'trying to protect'.

I guess you don't trust MJ either.

We are not heading in any directions that are going to do anyone any good here. Chuck, Jamie, Don, Me.. Can we just give it a rest now?? I will take my own advise and make this my last post in this thread.

Vance

10-11-2004, 05:23 PM

I have been involved in legal matters enough to know that when contemplating a law suit, finding what the assets are and how they are titled is the first step. I can read where there is the threat of a lawsuit for slander. This is not someone I would share any information with.

I try to understand how destroying the creditibility of the PRA and hurting the membership protects the assets of the PRA.

I always wonder about someone who tells me that they are more ethical then me. I would not have sued the PRA and I have been in a very similar place to Mr Bodie and I worked my way out of it.

I only know what I have read here and all of the reactions seem out of proproation to the stated objectives. I am a PRA member and all of this negitivity is making my membership less valuble to me.

I think that since there is very little benifit to any of the parties involved that it would be nice to put this to bed.

To be clear, I have not acused any one of anything. I have only stated how I would look at it if I was in the middle of it. I have only used what has been posted here by Mr Bodie to form my opinion. I have not used any of the acusations of any one else. They are all too small dollars to support the statements and fervor that has been on this forum. Thank you, Vance

jamiebodie

10-11-2004, 05:54 PM

You guys still miss the point that if the paperwork was provided none of this would be happening right now.

BTW, Vance the statute of limitations on my accident ran out long ago, there is no law suit to be had at this point. My accident was 6 years ago.

Vance Wrote: I always wonder about someone who tells me that they are more ethical then me. I would not have sued the PRA and I have been in a very similar place to Mr Bodie and I worked my way out of it.

Really, I had 56 days in the hospital with no insurance and absolutely no fault of my own. Describe your similar situation. In another 10 years or so my wife and I should have all my medical bills paid off.

Tim,
I want to see the paperwork not hear from MJ, Gary, Maxie, Dan, Greg, Tim, Tom, Joe or anyone else. You still don't get that it is not a matter of trust. You place the blame on Maxie, Dan and myself, but none of it on Gary for not doing the right thing, exactly what should have been done, in the first place. Ron is right there is much damage done now and most of it is irreparable, however all of it was avoidable by simply doing what the president should have done in the first place. Always remember that this is/was avoidable and will all stop when the paperwork is provided as asked. Hopefully the paperwork that Gary has sent to MJ will settle things once and for all. Once it is I will go away and never be back.

madmax

10-11-2004, 07:06 PM

OK hear it is, I finally understand.

I should not trust Gary, But I can trust MJ so don't ask to see the paper work again.

I will be getting money from Mike (Jamie's buddy) for the money he was given to pay for his expenses to Texas for the entertainment, you know he was unemployed at the time and was not going but the PRA wanted him to insure a quality show. I'm sure he didn't need the money to pay his way he most likely has a credit card. A 20 minute fireworks show from Glenn and his buddies who live in Mentone for $2,000.00 is much better than a 6 hour hanger dance several hundred mile from home for $600.00 to $800.00 any day of the week.

Also lets not forget to apologize to Gary for accusing him of doing something he did.

Jamie is going to sue the PRA so he can have his own personal airport in Mentone Indiana, so he can fly at his convenience from his house in Bluffton NC., and do all of this with out filing any paper work no less.

Oh yes and Tim is not going to post any more about this.

Do I have it right now? Or Am I still missing something?

madmax

10-11-2004, 07:20 PM

You know

Since I do have such a clear understanding of this now. I would like to sell a river lot I have in Waycross Ga.

If any one is interested, I will finance it for you and we will just keep it in my name until the loan is paid off. That way you don't have to worry about any liability or anything. I will use it at my discretion and when there is a maintenance issue I will let you know so you can pay for it.

Remember this is good for you. No liability, the financing has been taken care of because your credit sucks, and I will let you us it too. There will be of course a camping fee when you come down, but you understand?

Anyone interested?

Vance

10-11-2004, 08:02 PM

Jamie, I had an accident at Bonniville because of a problem with the coarse. I could have sued the person who put on the event. I was declared dead. I lost the sight in one eye because they thought I was dead and made poor care decisions. I could have sued the doctor. I have perminent brain damage because of the poor care. I have to have a full nerological worrk up each year to keep my FAA medical. The direct, uncompinsated financial impact was just under $1,500,000. My net worth at the time was $750,000. I had medical insurance and it paid over $500,000 but that didn't began to cover the expensens. I had two business sued out from under me because they thought I was weak and even though they lost, I lost everything including my ability to do many of the things I love. That was in 1995. I never felt that I was better than anyone or operating on a higher moral plane because I didn't sue. I am currently borrowing money to pay off some of my obligations ahead of schedual. I beleive this would qualify as a similar situation.

You very recently threatened to sue for slander and this would cause me to question you motives and your style. You have stated that most of the people on this forum would have sued because they arn't as principiled as you. I always question people who claim to be better than others. This is a red flag to me. I am part of the PRA and I have no controll over the actions of the people who work to help me have fun, but it would impact me in a negitive way if you did sue. I beleive you will be much better off if you get over it and get on with your life.

I am not able to picture how any of this can benifit anyone. The paperwork you seem to want so badly is public record and if you realy want it you can get it without having a tantrum or spending a lot of money.

I am greatfull each day that I am alive and I love my life. Please, lets put this to bed. Thank you, Vance

madmax

10-11-2004, 08:24 PM

I have the public paperwork. It does not answer my question which is simply.

Does the PRA and it's members own the Mentone Airport, or can it be sold out from under them without their consent and where is the paper work to back support the answer?

See that's not so hard now is it? Why would you think the PRA president would take over 1 1/2 years to answer it?

Vance

10-11-2004, 08:45 PM

If the corporations are legal, their property ownership and bylaws are public record and the answers to all your questions are there. I always don't cooperate with people who acuse me of things and demand things that they can get themselves. My experance with the law would sugest that it is not black and white and if someone wants to steal something it is very dificult to stop.

I beleive that the best thing for the PRA would be to leave this alone.

If you truely beleive that someone is trying to steal something than put a little work into finding out the truth instead of just whining.

I don't find any humor in you sarcastic posts and they don't seem cleaver to me. The people on this forum and the members of the PRA deserve more respect. Thank you, Vance

jamiebodie

10-12-2004, 02:30 AM

Vance, if it is public and so easy to obtain why can't anyone here find it. Would you please find this paperwork and post it here so we can all go on? Have you noticed that on one even attempts to answer the questions that are asked it is just on personal attack on Maxie, Dan and myself after another? The best thing for the PRA would have been full disclosure in the first place. Gary is the president of the PRA and should be serving the membership, not causing problems like this one.

My apologies go out to you, you actually may understand my situation.

Vance wrote: If the corporations are legal, their property ownership and bylaws are public record and the answers to all your questions are there.

That sounds like it should only take a couple of hours. Tell you what Vance, I will pay you $250.00 for the paperwork that answers our question, if you get it to me within the next month. That is $125.00/hour, not too shabby by most people's standard. That is how much I want to see this issue put to rest. The only stipulation is that it must answer the question that we have been asking since day one. I cannont believe that Gary has allowed this to go on this long. Do you not think the membership should be allowed to ask questions about how there organization is being run and their money is being spent. I trust and love my wife, but every few months we sit down together and go over our bills and take a look at where the money is being spent. Why? Because there may be a better way to be handling our finances and two heads are better than one.

Another thing I will do to benefit the PRA and myself. If allowed, I would be willing to auction off my lifetime membership on ebay and donate the money back into the PRA.

madmax

10-12-2004, 03:15 AM

An Ostrich sticks his head is the sand thinking that is the best thing to do. When he does that his body is left in harms way and he hasn't got a glue of what's going on. Is that your plan for PRA members?

Vance

10-12-2004, 06:29 AM

Jamie, Appoligy acepted. I am afraid you missed the point. Every one struggles in life and saying that you are better because you have suffered more or more moral because you didn't expect someone else to pay for your problems hurts everyone. It is about today and the tools you bring to the table today.

I don't understand what your agenda is and I'm not sure you do. There is no magic piece of paper that says someone can't steal something. If you want the paperwork find an attorney in Indiana and he can get all of it for you. It may cost a little more than $250. You can do it yourself if you are there. I am in California and I have no desire to visit Indiana this time of year. You may be able to do it by phone. You still won't have a promise of what is going to happen tomorrow. There is no inexpensive way to use legal force to change behavior. We already know that the title is not in the PRA's name. We know who is on the board of directors for PRA Mentone. What is the point? If people are misapropiating funds they will go to jail. Your continuing efforts to cast dought on the leadership has hurt the club and will continue to hurt the club. What is the benifit? What do you hope to accomplish? You were in a much better position to effect change when you were on the board of directors. I beleive that you and the PRA will be better off if you put this to bed. Thank you, Vance

Vance

10-12-2004, 06:51 AM

Mr Wildes. What is your agenda? Your efforts at humor are in bad tast and insulting. If you are trying to say that the people on this forum are sticking their head in the sand because they don't share your desire to throw stones it would help if you would be more direct. Why don't you just come out and state what terrible thing you think that we are too stupid to want to see? Perhaps if we knew what you were trying to prove someone would teach you to be more effective. If you desire is to destroy the PRA I don't want to help.

Chicken little comes to mind, even if the sky was falling, which it wasn't, he would not be able to effect a change in the outcome. If you would like to change things you need to find a more effective tool set than whining.

Please find something more productive to do with your energy. I know enough about you to know that you have made, and are capable of making positive contributions to the gyro comunity. Negitive energy hurts us all. Thank you, Vance

PRA

10-12-2004, 01:35 PM

Good afternoon gentlemen of PRA, The one million dollar question of the day is, what did you boys do with the paper work that was sent to you on October 28, 2003? The following people who was on the Board of Directors in 2003 were sent The Organizational Papers.

The following are names who were sent by certified mail:

James Bodie
Maxie Wildes
Dan Leslie
Dave Prater
Greg Gremminger
Gary Goldsberry
Richard D. Marshall
Ron Menzie
Tom Milton
Ernie Boyette

And the eleventh person to receive a copy of these papers sent out a few weeks ago was:

Mary Jane Oxnam

So, Jamie, Maxie, and Dan can you tell your audience what you did with your copies of these papers that were sent to you back in October of last year??

Heron

10-12-2004, 02:27 PM

Hey Ron . . .whatta ????
To papers or not to papers . . .that is the question . . .
Heron

madmax

10-12-2004, 05:29 PM

The papers I was sent did not answer my question. Does yours? If so show it!

Vance

10-12-2004, 10:29 PM

Mr Wildes, You need to be cleaver like MJ and seek profesional advice. I finaly understand your problem. You are looking for some where in the papers that says everything is OK. Something as complicated as corporations and real property ownership doesn't have an "everything is ok" clause or a "no one can steal anything" clause. It is not hard to see that the Popular Rotorcraft Assosiation does not directly own the Mentone airport. For what ever reason it is owned by a seperate corporation. I beleive, without seeking profesional help, that selling the airport after the PRA paid for it and improved it would be illegal conversion of funds and not hard to prove in court. That won't necessarily stop someone from stealing it. There is a lot of accounting oversight with a 501.C3 that will make it harder for people to get away with the theft.

I beleive that your ongoing whining and acsusations against the PRA and board of directors has done much more damage than someone stealing the airport. I can see that this will never be resolved to your satisfaction. It is remarkable to me that you have had the papers and continued to damage the PRA by saying you were not able to get the papers. I suspect that you are cleaver enough to already know all of this and you really have some other agenda. It would be nice if you would state your real goal, or even better, just leave the PRA alone. If you succede in reducing the membership of the PRA with your accusations, we will lose the airport anyway and all the good the PRA does. Please back off. Thank you, Vance

scott heger

10-12-2004, 11:50 PM

I look at this airport issue with some humor. I know some of you think something smells here, and it sounds like it may. If a certain person(s) wants to see the paperwork, why not just shut him (or her) up and give them a copy of the papers. Hell, even charge them for copying it, just do it and move on. What’s the big secret? The wisdom of the airport/PRA connection seems a little of a stretch to me. How many PRA members as a percentage attend and fly at Mentone? I bet it is a single digit percentage. So what is the PRA doing for the rest of us? Skip the fireworks /entertainment for the chosen few who attend, and spend the money fixing the magazine and promoting more safety for starters.
I did attend one of the yearly conventions as a non-flyer, I think in 1999. The most attention I got was from the rude person who was much more concerned about getting a parking/entrance fee from me then telling where I could get info about gyros when I asked. Didn't even answer my question, just pointed. I then waited 20 minutes in the office for someone to show up and give me an events schedule. Well, what nice welcome to the PRA after traveling all the way from California. Seemed like a very "clicky" group of guys that didn’t seem very interested in promoting anything remotely attached to the PRA. More like a good ol' boy fly-in than a "convention".
I just don't think a permanent airport location benefits the greater membership, and that the yearly event should be moved around the country each year. So that way the "PRA" can be seen by the membership in different regions. I don't care if I ever see the Mentone Airport again, and I doubt most paying PRA members do either. But the ones holding the "keys" to the airport sure seem to want to protect something, and have a agenda that they don't seem to want to be made public. This is from a guy on the outside looking in. I just doubt I am alone.

Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel, Ca N86SH

jamiebodie

10-13-2004, 03:07 AM

OK Vance, you have had your run at us now give it a break. You accuse me of stating that I am morally better than you when all I did was defend myself. The issue would never have been brought up if I were not attacked in yet another effort to divert attention from the fact that the PRA/PRA Mentone seem to be set up in a manner that leaves an open door for things to go badly. All that would be needed to fix this loophole, providing is does exist, is to make the PRA Mentone BOD answer to the PRA BOD. Then the members would have representation. You have no idea what lengths Maxie and I went to trying to get this information before bringing it to the conference. You actually don't have much of an idea about what is going on here at all, so stop attacking and diverting attention away from the original question. BTW, we did have someone look at the paperwork that was sent to us, again you speak out of turn about what you don't know about.

Pam,
The paperwork that was sent out does show that the PRA Mentone and the PRA are set up properly as corporations, however it does not show the relationship between the two. The relationship between the two is, and has always been, the question. The paperwork that was sent out a year ago was useless in answering the question that was asked.

MJ,
PLEASE do me one favor and present the following hypothetical situation and question to your friend that is reviewing the paperwork.

Let's pretend that the PRA is in horrible financial straights, not much of a stretch here, and it comes down to the fact that the PRA either has to dissolve as a group or sell the airport in order to keep funtioning as an organization. Now let's assume for the sake of this hypothetical situation that the PRA BOD decides that selling the airport is exactly what we need to do to keep things afloat and the PRA Mentone BOD says they don't want to sell the airport. Could the PRA BOD do anything in this situation besides ride their sinking ship until the PRA no longers exists or does the PRA BOD have control of the airport?

The points if the PRA members are paying for the airport then the people that they elect should have control of it, if the PRA Mentone and PRA BOD are set up this way we have no way to protect our assets, not that we would need to do so, but why not set it up so that this possibility does not exist. How much work would it be to set things up properly?

Always remember, the only rights that you have are the ones you can defend!

donshoebridge

10-13-2004, 04:20 AM

It matters who owns the airport if I never fly again, because I am a lifetime member of the PRA and I want to know that my assets are being properly protected.

Your assets! Who the hell are you? You don't own the PRA or PRA Mentone Inc.! You are nothing more than a PRA member, just like the rest of us. The only difference is that because you had the money to pony up for a life membership, you could be on the board. Big deal! You're still making it sound as if the PRA owes you something in return for some investment that you made. The PRA don't owe you Jack except for a magazine. And the PRA surly don't owe you an explanation as to who owns the airport. The airport is owned by PRA Mentone Inc. The PRA rents space from PRA Mentone Inc. If you have a complaint about that, then take it up with the landlord.

Now let's assume for the sake of this hypothetical situation that the PRA BOD decides that selling the airport is exactly what we need to do to keep things afloat and the PRA Mentone BOD says they don't want to sell the airport. Could the PRA BOD do anything in this situation besides ride their sinking ship until the PRA no longers exists or does the PRA BOD have control of the airport?

The PRA BOD has no authority as to who owns the airport. That would be like me telling my landlord that I want him to sell his apartment complex to a third party so that I can pay my cable TV bill. Tail wagging the dog!

The PRA can not show a profit AND maintain their 501C(4) status at the same time. The PRA is nothing more than a magazine subscription and a club. PRA Mentone Inc. is not a non-prof organization, and therefore must pay taxes on profits and assets. For the sake of protection from someone suing the PRA and taking the airport, the PRA and the airport must be separate. But by the same token, it does not guarantee that the Mentone airport can not be either stolen from or sold by PRA Mentone Inc.

So instead of busting the PRA's balls, go find the owners of PRA Mentone Inc., and scream at them since they are the rightful controllers of the airport, not the PRA.

GyroRon

10-13-2004, 05:25 AM

Don, you might want to look at your post right above. I disagree with several points you have made.

The PRA is a club, it is a magazine subscription. But unlike other clubs and or subscriptions, Each and Every member of that club is a equal owner of the entire ORG. So for example, if there is a box of paperclips in the PRA office desk, and there is 4000 members in the PRA, then you as a member own a 1/4000th share of that box of paperclips. Same deal with the airport. It is owned by you and me and all the rest of us members.

Being a life member, or even better a member of the Board, gives you more say in what happens with that Box of paperclips, but those people are still just a member and just like us they have a 1/4000th share in everything the PRA owns.

The problem is just like Jamie pointed out, is if the PRA keeps shrinking, and it has been on the decline the last several years, it may get to the point of having to close the doors or sell the airport. At this point, it is unclear if we as the PRA can even sell the airport at all. It is not owned by the PRA. It is not controlled by the PRA.

Only connections between the two appears to be the fact that a few of the Mentone Board of directors are also PRA board members and the simular name - PRA - And the fact that the PRA is who bought it to begin with

But legally it seems that what Jamie suggests could happen could very well happen. Then Guys like you Don will have a nice airport to fly your gyros from, paid for by the rest of us, and the rest of us get nothing.

Maybe the way you see it - and others - is.... Who cares? It is just a magazine subsription, why is it even any of your business what is going on behind the scenes?

Maybe you think that because all you or I have done for the PRA is send in 35$ a year, all we deserve is a magazine, that we didn't do anything directly to buy a airport. True, but that is not the point. We became a member of the PRA by sending in our 35$ and the PRA bought the airport with the PRA's money. That means the PRAs assets belong to the membership of the PRA. The PRA does not have a indivdual owner, it is owned by the membership at large.

I do understand the attitude you have Don, and others as well. The attitude that this stuff is petty, or doesn't matter to us, or is none of our business, etc.... The attitude that we shouldn't waste our breath discussing it. I do undertand and sorta agree with it too. But the bottom line is the PRA is in a decline and there is money problems and there is a very real possiblity that the PRA may be forced to either cut the magazine down to the point it is worthless or stop it altogether - which in my opinion would be the death certificate of the PRA - and in the end you guys up there luck out with a airport.

OR if the PRA has the control , it could decide to sell the airport to pump up the PRAs bank account so the magazine could continue and the PRA could stay alive. Right now it appears that the PRA would not be able to sell the airport if it wanted to.

Don this is just politics, and after reading your posts in the tread you started that caused such a uproar, I am surprised you want to sweep this under the carpet instead of getting to the facts.

Dean_Dolph

10-13-2004, 05:50 AM

…..But the ones holding the "keys" to the airport sure seem to want to protect something, and have a agenda that they don't seem to want to be made public. This is from a guy on the outside looking in. I just doubt I am alone. Hey, Scott, I hope you aren't developing the same paranoia that the former BOD members have contracted! This has got more than a little touchy since all of the people involved, are well liked by those that know them. It is truly a family (as MJ would say!) squabble.

I have no idea where and when the question was raised but, by innuendo, charges that there is some covert reason for the airport purchase have been made. Rather than having us defend the action of separating airport management from the PRA management, I would like to ask Jamie and Maxie to prove that there is an intent steal, or otherwise subvert, the airport after the PRA members have paid for it.

Oh yeah, hypothetical cases don't carry any weight with me and I doubt a court of law would hear one.

Dean_Dolph

10-13-2004, 07:04 AM

The problem is just like Jamie pointed out, is if the PRA keeps shrinking, and it has been on the decline the last several years, it may get to the point of having to close the doors or sell the airport. Good grief, Ron, don't you have a lawn or two that needs mowing?!

Get a grip, the PRA is not going to close the doors or sell the airport! I guess it is because of the rapid communication via the Internet and the fact that a lot of you relatively new PRA members don't know the past history of the PRA that you believe the PRA is rapidly approaching an end. The PRA, like other aviation organizations, go thru cycles of expansion and contraction. This has happened before and it will happen again. Yeah, the PRA is, and has been in dire straits, but the will of the BOD and the support of the members have always pulled it thru. After 35+ years of being a member I've acquired the confidence that it will survive this dip in membership as it has in the past.

In fact I don't only have confidence it will survive, I also believe the PRA is poised to become larger, more dynamic and provide the members with more value. In order for this to occur it will require all of us to continue to stay involved with critiques, suggestions and the willingness to implement what ever is necessary at the local level.

You guys in Chapter 13 are doing good so you don't have any reason to get down in the mouth and adopt a 'woe is me' attitude.

Rotornut

10-13-2004, 07:55 AM

Jamie, I will do this.

Pam, Any objections to me sending a copy of all the paper work I got to Jamie?? MJ:)

Maxie, I NEVER SAID THAT!! :( And I will not go Thru This Again! It was hammered and hammered on Norms forum. I still have copies of the discussion and emails back and forth with Jamie.

And I have Never Disliked any PRA Member that is here now or gone.
MJ :)

MJ,
PLEASE do me one favor and present the following hypothetical
situation and question to your friend that is reviewing the paperwork.
Let's pretend that the PRA is in horrible financial straights, not much of
a stretch here, and it comes down to the fact that the PRA either has
to dissolve as a group or sell the airport in order to keep funtioning
as an organization. Now let's assume for the sake of this hypothetical
situation that the PRA BOD decides that selling the airport is exactly
what we need to do to keep things afloat and the PRA Mentone BOD says
they don't want to sell the airport. Could the PRA BOD do anything in
this situation besides ride their sinking ship until the PRA no longers
exists or does the PRA BOD have control of the airport?

The points if the PRA members are paying for the airport then the
people that they elect should have control of it, if the PRA Mentone and PRA
BOD are set up this way we have no way to protect our assets, not that
we would need to do so, but why not set it up so that this possibility
does not exist. How much work would it be to set things up properly?

Always remember, the only rights that you have are the ones you can
defend!
***************

Doug Riley

10-13-2004, 08:58 AM

If I had any brains, I'd give this whole dispute wide berth. Not being that smart, here are some observations.

First some ancient history. PRA cannot possibly be, and probably never will be, in straits as dire as it was immediately after the transfer of the organization from Bensen's corporate office to California. That happened around 1973, if memory serves. A mere decline in membership can't compare to finding (as Ken Brock and company found) that promised assets and materials didn't materialize. It was a very close shave, but we made it and, in fact, some of the best PRA mags ever came out back then.

Second, the question about control of the airport corp is a legitimate one, at least from my viewpoint as somebody who does this kind of stuff all day at work. Corporate laws vary from state to state. Within the limits of what state law allows, there's still a huge range of possible provisions that you might find in a given company's bylaws.

I'll assume that PRA owns all the stock of the airport corp (although I don't know that to be true). The sole shareholder of PRA Airport Corp. is then PRA itself. Depending on the terms of state law and Airport Corp's bylaws, it MAY be possible for the shareholder (PRA itself) to override Airport Corp's directors and force the sale of an asset (such as the airport). You can't know if this is possible without knowing both Indiana corporate law AND the term of the Airport Corp's bylaws.

In such an asset sale, the money must usually be applied first to the debts of the selling corp. The balance goes into the treasury of the selling corp (Airport). Where the money goes from there depends on the next move of the board or the shareholder(s). If the shareholder (PRA) needs/wants the money, it can force Airport Corp to dissolve, in which case any money left after paying creditors will go to the shareholder -- again, PRA.

Nothing in any of this paperwork can keep a dishonest person from flat-out stealing money or property. Directors and officers have to be people you can trust. (Businesses can, and often do, buy insurance against theft by officers, but that's a separate story).

Those who volunteer to be officers and directors of little nonprofit clubs and such are almost always honest and well-meaning people. Often they're less sophisticated than the Harvard MBA's who run big businesses. The "regular guy" volunteers often make mistakes and/or don't know how much to say or keep under their hats. This breeds suspicion. Since we depend on volunteers (i.e. on free labor donated to us as a gift), however, we ought to be REALLY careful about looking those particular horses in the mouth.

I suspect -- but again I don't know -- that this particular dispute arises from some awkward moves and inexperience on the part of well-meaning folks on both sides. Hell, maybe I'm wrong and this IS the next Enron -- but that sort of scam is more likely to be pulled by those Harvard MBA's than by us guys.

It would be more fun to post about rotor heads or something.

An Indiana business lawyer, reading the bylaws and knowing local law, would be the best person to review and explain all this.

Vance

10-13-2004, 09:19 AM

Jamie, it is nice that you finaly got down to the question. All along you have been saying that you haven't seen the paperwork when aparently you had.

You seem to have drawn the conclusion that I am completly in the dark abut this whole deal because I was carefull to point out that I hadn't seen the paperwork. I am a naturaly curious person especialy when it comes to real estate. I am aware of many of the details of the transactions.

The answer to your question "Can we force PRA Mentone to sell the airport?" is in the minuets of the meetings where the financial relationships were discused. Corporations are required to keep minuets and a good lawyer might have a good guess as to what a court would decide if someone decided to force the issue. It isn't in just one little clause somewere and it is never cheap or a sure thing to find out who has the power.
A complex business question like this is put before a jury where many of the members can't balance their check book and very expensive lawyers are doing their best to confuse the jury. My experance has been that it is best to negociate and productive negoations don't began with accusiations.

Jamie, What are you trying to acomplish? Think about it and just state it in plane english. Tell us how you are going to get there, what is the cost and who pays it. I beleive that this would help us all understand and maybe even decide to help you get there.

There has been a considerable cost so far and the PRA, it's membership and the people you accuse have paid it. It appears from your posts that you arn't having that much fun either.

Lets try to keep this simple. Goals-Cost. Bennifite-cost. Power-cost. Thank you, Vance

Thank you Doug, I defer to your expertese. You beat me to the post. I made the assumption that they were seperate coporations and the relationship was in the minuets. I agree with your assesment and you stated it beautifully. If 100% of the stock of PRA Mentone is owned by the PRA it is not very complicated isue and the answer to the question is not that expensive to asses. Thank You, Vance

jamiebodie

10-13-2004, 09:32 AM

It is actually not about a scam or anyone stealing anything. As I have said 100 times before it is about setting the organization up in a manner that is most logical and provides the best system of checks and balances to keep honest people honest. Had this question been answered 1.5 years ago we would not be here discussing it now.

MJ, I appreciate you passing my question and scenario along. It will be of great help in answering our orginal question. Once our original question is answered it will be my great honor to disapear into the woodwork, regardless of what that answer is. What the members do with this information will be up to them.

Don, your post is so filled with errors that I won't bother to respond. I will just let your content speak for itself.

Jamie

automan1223

10-13-2004, 10:57 AM

Doug : Finally hear from someone who knows a bit more than us "regular folks"
I would not think nor give credit to anyone as being pure as the wind driven snow. Nor do I think that anyone is as stupid as you give them credit for either.... DUMB like a FOX.......

My take on this is simple. Paperwork was asked for to resolve personal concerns that everything was above board and legally ok. EVERY PRA board member has an OBLIGATION and a RIGHT to see such paperwork. I dont know where the crime in asking to see such paperwork is. Without a doubt do not ask nor challenge authority of the PRA........

I can testify that the personal attacks, mudslinging and plain lies from some people I had previously LOOKED UP TO have outright surprised and dissappointed me.

I do believe that several people have totally mis construed the original intent and question of Dan, Maxie & Jamie.

However Gary has a bit of explaining to do in my mind WHY IT TOOK 2 YEARS TO GET PAPERWORK THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN GIVEN WITHIN 1 MONTH.

Gary, your actions strike me as a little vindictive child that is holding onto his lollypop just so no one else can have it.

Did you derive pleasure from keeping the paperwork from 3 ELECTED Board members and the PRA membership ?

Was it your intent to create an issue with a paperchase so that they would RESIGN ? If you did not intend to create a ****storm then please inform all of us why it took so long to finally get "part" of the paperwork to a "regular member" ?

IS THIS THE KIND OF MORAL, MATURE AND ETHICAL BEHAVIOR / LEADERSHIP THAT I CAN EXPECT FROM MY PRA PRESIDENT ?

and LAST ?

There still seems to be some confusion about WHO OWNS THE ASSETS OF THE PRA, including the AIRPORT. I will not blindly follow someone who says
"trust me".

Just show us.
Its a simple request. IS IT NOT ?

Jonathan Weis
Oriental NC

Vance

10-13-2004, 11:27 AM

It is hard for me to understand why three people that felt it was important to get the paperwork couldn't have just gone down to the courthouse and got it. When I have a legal question that warrents the expense, I consult an attorney.

I am amazed that Gary continues to work hard to help me have fun when he has been so publicly villified.

I hope that by stayin on track and keeping this simple it can be resolved without further insults. Today and the future are what is important. Lets get over the insults of the past and move foward in a productive way. Thank you, Vance

PatONeal

10-13-2004, 12:12 PM

Fellow PRA members I have read this thread and tried not to take sides as I certainly don't know all the facts, having been a member for only about a year.

I personally think we should use PRA Mentone as a blueprint for each section of the country to obtain it's own PRA airport. PRA Louisiana sounds good to me. I'd bet the farm we could round up enough volunteers from Chapter 20 to maintain it, and the BOD would be from the local chapter as well.

Having 3,000 or so members to pay for this airport would certainly make it possible, and since we(PRA) have airport payments budgeted already, there would be no additional burden on the national organization.

Maybe this should be a major part of the PRA Agenda. It would certainly insure that we would have a place to fly or have a convention or flyin. It would probably be a pretty good recruiting tool as well.

The tough part is deciding which area should be next(after Mentone is paid off).

Pat O'Neal
PRA Member #38822

donshoebridge

10-13-2004, 12:48 PM

The problem is just like Jamie pointed out, is if the PRA keeps shrinking, and it has been on the decline the last several years, it may get to the point of having to close the doors or sell the airport. At this point, it is unclear if we as the PRA can even sell the airport at all. It is not owned by the PRA. It is not controlled by the PRA.

The Popular Rotorcraft Association does not OWN the airport. PRA Mentone Inc. owns the airport. The airport is not under the control of the PRA membership. The PRA only rents space from PRA Mentone Inc. The only assets you're going to find on the PRA books are a few junk-ass computers and some file cabinets in the PRA office.

Only connections between the two appears to be the fact that a few of the Mentone Board of directors are also PRA board members and the similar name - PRA - And the fact that the PRA is who bought it to begin with

If the PRA BOD didn't like the idea of being based at Mentone, there isn't anything stopping the PRA BOD from voting that the PRA headquarters be moved to some other location. Except for rent being paid to PRA Mentone Inc., there is no ownership connection between the 2 organizations.

But legally it seems that what Jamie suggests could happen could very well happen. Then Guys like you Don will have a nice airport to fly your gyros from, paid for by the rest of us, and the rest of us get nothing.

Damn it, Ron! Here it is again - jealousy! Gary Goldsberry and Art Evens put the money up for this airport because they were sick of seeing the PRA being run from an extra room in a funeral home, or similar location. They are the ones that are stuck with the financial burden of paying for the airport, not the PRA. If the PRA can't pay to rent the trailer on the airport, then the PRA will be evicted from the airport. And if Gary and Art can't pay the mortgage on the airport, then THEY loose the airport, not the PRA.

Maybe you think that because all you or I have done for the PRA is send in 35$ a year, all we deserve is a magazine, that we didn't do anything directly to buy a airport. True, but that is not the point. We became a member of the PRA by sending in our 35$ and the PRA bought the airport with the PRA's money. That means the PRAs assets belong to the membership of the PRA. The PRA does not have a indivdual owner, it is owned by the membership at large.

Agreed - PRA assets belong to the membership. But the PRA doesn’t own the airport, therefore, the airport is not an asset of the PRA and the membership has no say over the airport.

Don this is just politics, and after reading your posts in the tread you started that caused such a uproar, I am surprised you want to sweep this under the carpet instead of getting to the facts.

You're right on about it being politics. But not from me! Sweep it under the carpet? Partly true because you can only beat a dead horse for so long. But more importantly because the PRA membership does not own the airport and this whole argument is a mute point.

The incorporation that actually owns the airport, that being PRA Mentone Inc., could have been named anything, and in this case maybe it should have been named something else. But all the fuel for this argument is coming from the misunderstanding that the Popular Rotorcraft Association owns the airport, which it does not. The PRA doesn’t have anything to do with the ownership of the airport. PRA Mentone Inc. is a separate entity and has no ownership association with the PRA what so ever. It doesn’t matter one way or the other if the PRA closes it’s doors, because NONE of us will see a dime from the sale of the airport because we, the PRA membership, do not own the airport! PRA Mentone Inc. owns the airport, not the Popular Rotorcraft Association! The letters “P”, “R”, “A” in PRA Mentone Inc. don’t mean a damn thing.

Rotornut

10-13-2004, 01:16 PM

Good post Doug

Brent_Brown

10-13-2004, 02:20 PM

Don, Are you telling me that NONE of the PRA dues (money) was used for this airport? I know I read in the PRA mag it was used on it.
help me out here. You sound like you are in the know. I am not in the know, and I feel used.

Heron

10-13-2004, 02:32 PM

Daing guys!? Where you going with this???
Back to the future?
Focus:
The airport is not under our control (our=membership, not me)
We have no saying about the final destination.
Airport or not the membership is declining for reasons known, namely the treatment our coleague received when showed up to see the show.
It is a clique, only some people can get to the inner core, no programs to expand or attract other groups, where are the black pilots?
That is the discussion, the treatment the ex-BOD members got from top guns and what direction they are taking the PRA.
Either break it or take it over . . .
Heron

PRA

10-13-2004, 02:39 PM

MJ,
You are more than welcome to send Jamie a copy of the organizational paperwork that I sent you. And when he receives your copies of the same thing that I sent him last October, I hope he does what has been suggested and contacts someone in Indiana about an Indiana non-for-profit organization.

As stated in the organization's by-laws:

"(Article XI) - Dissolution

Upon the dissolution of the organization, assets shall be distrubuted for one or more exempt purposes within the meaning of section 501 (c) (3) of the Internal Revenue Code, or corresponding section of any furture federal tax code, or shall be distributed to the federal government, or to a state or local Government for a public purpose. Any such assets not disposed of shall be disposed of by the Court of Common Pleas of the county in which the principle office of the organization is then located, exclusively for such purposes or to such organization or organizations as said Court shall determine which are organized and operated exclusively for such purposes."

I not sure about what most of your worries are about the airport, but mine are,
if P.R.A. goes under and has to dissolve, that all of its assets have to be given away, including the airport.
So is this what some of you are working towards? Cause it sure seems that way to me, with the way some of you are acting out here on this forum. Since some of you say that you want to protect your assets, and P.R.A. is in some dire straights, then get busy and do some sort of membership drive to boost it instead of killing it with all this time wasted sitting in front of your keyboards.
I challenge any one of you to take part in the membership drive that, I beleive it was, Dan Leslie propossed several years ago. Sponsor four new members to sign up in one year, and receive your next year membership free. In seven years, I have not had one individual be able to take advantage of a free year. Hey guys how hard can it be to recruit four new people a year.

Pam Bundy
Office Manager
P.R.A.
PO Box 68
Mentone, In 46539
(574) 353-7227 ph/fax
prahq@pra.org or
prahq@medt.com

Dean_Dolph

10-13-2004, 02:45 PM

........ I can testify that the personal attacks, mudslinging and plain lies from some people I had previously LOOKED UP TO have outright surprised and dissappointed me. Johnathan, please don't start with the innuendo. That is all we have been getting. If you have proof of any lies then put them out here for all to see. But be carefull what you say though, very, very careful.........I do believe that several people have totally mis construed the original intent and question of Dan, Maxie & Jamie. Hmm, may be we have. Would you care to clarify what they have said.However Gary has a bit of explaining to do in my mind WHY IT TOOK 2 YEARS TO GET PAPERWORK THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN GIVEN WITHIN 1 MONTH.

Gary, your actions strike me as a little vindictive child that is holding onto his lollypop just so no one else can have it.

Did you derive pleasure from keeping the paperwork from 3 ELECTED Board members and the PRA membership ?

Was it your intent to create an issue with a paperchase so that they would RESIGN ? If you did not intend to create a ****storm then please inform all of us why it took so long to finally get "part" of the paperwork to a "regular member" ?

IS THIS THE KIND OF MORAL, MATURE AND ETHICAL BEHAVIOR / LEADERSHIP THAT I CAN EXPECT FROM MY PRA PRESIDENT ?

and LAST ?

There still seems to be some confusion about WHO OWNS THE ASSETS OF THE PRA, including the AIRPORT. I will not blindly follow someone who says
"trust me".

Just show us.
Its a simple request. IS IT NOT ?

Jonathan Weis
Oriental NC Jonathan, it sounds to me like you got a thorough indoctrination at ROC. I had hoped to attend but life got in the way at the last minute. I was disappointed before but now I'm really, really sorry I missed it.

jamiebodie

10-13-2004, 02:50 PM

Vance, where have you been? I have asked the same question in different forms at least 20 times here on the conference as well as 100's of times before coming here. I haven't seen any paperwork that answered my question, as I stated before. Do you read what I write? I guess not because you asked me Jamie, What are you trying to acomplish? and I have been stating the same question over and over again. The paperwork th

One thing I will agree with is this statement If 100% of the stock of PRA Mentone is owned by the PRA it is not very complicated isue and the answer to the question is not that expensive to asses. I think you meant assets and it would be great if the PRA owned 100 percent of the stock for PRA Mentone, that would tickle me pink. This would be so easy if that were the case, but if it is why wouldn't this have been disclosed long ago?

The paperwork that I received did not answer my question and was pretty much useless in my search for an answer.

Jamie

Jamie, it is nice that you finaly got down to the question. All along you have been saying that you haven't seen the paperwork when aparently you had.

You seem to have drawn the conclusion that I am completly in the dark abut this whole deal because I was carefull to point out that I hadn't seen the paperwork. I am a naturaly curious person especialy when it comes to real estate. I am aware of many of the details of the transactions.

The answer to your question "Can we force PRA Mentone to sell the airport?" is in the minuets of the meetings where the financial relationships were discused. Corporations are required to keep minuets and a good lawyer might have a good guess as to what a court would decide if someone decided to force the issue. It isn't in just one little clause somewere and it is never cheap or a sure thing to find out who has the power.
A complex business question like this is put before a jury where many of the members can't balance their check book and very expensive lawyers are doing their best to confuse the jury. My experance has been that it is best to negociate and productive negoations don't began with accusiations.

Jamie, What are you trying to acomplish? Think about it and just state it in plane english. Tell us how you are going to get there, what is the cost and who pays it. I beleive that this would help us all understand and maybe even decide to help you get there.

There has been a considerable cost so far and the PRA, it's membership and the people you accuse have paid it. It appears from your posts that you arn't having that much fun either.

Lets try to keep this simple. Goals-Cost. Bennifite-cost. Power-cost. Thank you, Vance

Thank you Doug, I defer to your expertese. You beat me to the post. I made the assumption that they were seperate coporations and the relationship was in the minuets. I agree with your assesment and you stated it beautifully. If 100% of the stock of PRA Mentone is owned by the PRA it is not very complicated isue and the answer to the question is not that expensive to asses. Thank You, Vance

Dean_Dolph

10-13-2004, 03:14 PM

Lets see, I think there are a couple of clichés that are appropriate at this time. How 'bout 'Put up, or Shut up', 'The Ball is in Your Corner' or 'Time to Step up to the Plate'. I have a couple of other nasty ones that I could add but since it is obvious that we have children playing here I won't include them.

woodsher

10-13-2004, 04:04 PM

I for one being a new member of the PRA find this Discussion Is more than Getting me to rethink Just what some people are will to do to Hurt not Help this organization. I see all of this as a personal Vendetta to discredit this organization.( Am I Wrong) Maybe! But This must end!
Also As being a newer member that I nor any other new members or Potential new members reading these posts will potentially Drive those members or possible members away.
So now You Have your paperwork that you asked for. Look it over and Let this End!!!!!
Pam Wrote
Since some of you say that you want to protect your assets, and P.R.A. is in some dire straights, then get busy and do some sort of membership drive to boost it instead of killing it with all this time wasted sitting in front of your keyboards.
I challenge any one of you to take part in the membership drive that, I beleive it was, Dan Leslie propossed several years ago. Sponsor four new members to sign up in one year, and receive your next year membership free. In seven years, I have not had one individual be able to take advantage of a free year. Hey guys how hard can it be to recruit four new people a year.
So lets do It and let this matter end Now.
Well said Pam!!!

Lets concentrate on PRA getting back to what its all about,People enjoying a hobbie they love and having fun doing what we enjoy with one another without conflict. And getting PRA back to its financial stability.
Thank You
Brian Sherwood
http://mysite.verizon.net/res7449i/brianshornetgyro/

ToddP

10-13-2004, 04:10 PM

The Popular Rotorcraft Association does not OWN the airport. PRA Mentone Inc. owns the airport. The airport is not under the control of the PRA membership. The PRA only rents space from PRA Mentone Inc.

Agreed - PRA assets belong to the membership. But the PRA doesn’t own the airport, therefore, the airport is not an asset of the PRA and the membership has no say over the airport.

The PRA doesn’t have anything to do with the ownership of the airport. PRA Mentone Inc. is a separate entity and has no ownership association with the PRA what so ever. It doesn’t matter one way or the other if the PRA closes it’s doors, because NONE of us will see a dime from the sale of the airport because we, the PRA membership, do not own the airport! PRA Mentone Inc. owns the airport, not the Popular Rotorcraft Association!

Please take a moment to re-read the quotes above from Don Shoebridge.

If this is true and I'm beginning to believe it is. Then why have I been reading about and hearing about "our" airport all these years? Am I incorrect in saying that the membership has been told for years that we "own" the airport in Mentone?

Have we been making "rental" payments that are equal to the mortgage payments?

Have we not been told that PRA Mentone was formed because of liability and used as a protective shield for the PRA?

Let me draw a little hypothetical that I believe draws out what Don has explained. Because I work for non-profit I'll use the credit union as an example.

I'm the president of my credit union and I decide its time to buy a new building. I bring this up at a board meeting and after some discussion the board agrees that a new building would be an excellent idea - a base of operations. After some searching we find the perfect location. However as president I've decided that allowing the credit union to purchase their own building is far to risky, too much liability. So as a favor to the credit union I decide to purchase the building myself with a couple of friends and we'll "rent" the building back to the credit union. As president the board trusts me and they agree that this will be the best thing for the credit union. We purchase the building and as far as anyone can tell, the "credit union" has a new building. The members are very excited about "their" new building. After 15-20 years of rental payments, the building is paid for and me and my friends have ourselves a nice little investment property. On the other hand, the credit union has nothing, yet they've made all the payments.

Now, there is absolutely nothing wrong with this, lots and lots of people buy investment property as rentals and do exactly the same thing. HERE IS THE PROBLEM: As president and a member of the board of directors this is incredibly unethical and possibly criminal. My decisions for the credit union cannot be influenced by my own personal profit motives and when I'm looking at having a commercial building...or airport paid for by the membership, then there is a profit motive.

So here is the big question for me -
Who are the shareholders of PRA Mentone?

Rotornut

10-13-2004, 04:29 PM

Pam you said /

In seven years, I have not had one individual be able to take advantage of a free year. Hey guys how hard can it be to recruit four new people a year.

Gosh I forgot about that. Thanks Pam MJ :)

Rotornut

10-13-2004, 04:33 PM

Thanks Todd good post. Lots to re-think. MJ :)

PW_Plack

10-13-2004, 06:18 PM

Jamie,

No matter how many references you make to smiling as you type, your behavior pegs you as an angry, bitter guy. You have better reason than anyone I know to be that way, but it's still ugly.

If I had a personal vendetta against Gary and the rest of his crew, I'd get on the forum here, gossip like a snubbed schoolgirl, and see how many members I could convince to abandon the PRA. It wouldn't solve any real problems, and it would cause a loss of every life member's investment, but if I were angry enough, it might bring me some satisfaction.

If, on the other hand, I thought there had been wrongdoing by some officers of the organization, and went for years getting stonewalled, I'd pick up the phone and call the Indiana Secretary of State, who oversees the registering of corporations, and the State Attorney General's Office. They take a really dim view of corporations which violate their own bylaws, and refuse to answer legitimate questions from their elected boards of directors. I'd make sure the offenders in the organization were kept abreast of my progress. Eventually, if I didn't get the answers, the corporation would lose its state charter, the guilty would be charged with crimes, and I wouldn't have any expenditures beyond phone bills and postage.

Either way, I'd destroy the PRA. The first way, I'd also earn the animosity of all the former members of the group. By taking the second course, the people who violated the law would rightfully take the blame.

This airport deal smells pretty bad, but so far I'm only out a couple years' dues. You're obviously at least three years more pissed-off than I am. So, why are you taking this approach? If what you say is all true, and you can back it up, why don't you take some of your obvious spare time and excess adrenaline, and take this up through more effective channels? It's much more admirable to solve a problem than to whine about it.

GyroRon

10-13-2004, 06:43 PM

Please take a moment to re-read the quotes above from Don Shoebridge.

If this is true and I'm beginning to believe it is. Then why have I been reading about and hearing about "our" airport all these years? Am I incorrect in saying that the membership has been told for years that we "own" the airport in Mentone?

Have we been making "rental" payments that are equal to the mortgage payments?

Have we not been told that PRA Mentone was formed because of liability and used as a protective shield for the PRA?

So here is the big question for me -
Who are the shareholders of PRA Mentone?

Todd.... my thoughts exactly.

If we don't own the airport just come out and say so. If it's not ours then who cares who owns it?

GyroRon

10-13-2004, 06:46 PM

And to everyone out there reading this thread and the others that came before it, THIS THREAD IS NO REASON TO RETHINK YOUR BEING A PART OF THE PRA, OR ANY REASON NOT TO JOIN THE PRA. This is about a airport and who it belongs to and if there is any wrong doing going on behind the scenes or not. The PRA is still here and alive, so don't use these discussions as a poor excuse to turn your back on it.

madmax

10-13-2004, 09:10 PM

Vance

I am amazed too!!!!

MJ

What are you referring to that you didn't say?

Don

It sounds like you know the answer to our question and more.

Todd

You nailed it! If anyone wants to know what this is about read post #85 that says it all.

I have no hidden agenda nor have I been whining. I have simply asked a question that has yet to be answered, other than by Don.

If it were Sunday and you asked to see the news paper and were given last Wednesdays paper. I'm thinks you wouldn't be happy until you got the paper you asked for, even thou you were given a paper, it just does not give you the information you wanted! So the fact that you had received a paper is not relevant. I does however make for a good smoke screen. What is relevant is receiving the paper that you asked for.

Here is a little background for you.

Both PRA and PRA Mentone are non profit Organizations. Neither Pay taxes.

PRA has no stock, does have members, does have a magazine, and an Elected BOD that has to answer to it's members.

PRA Mentone has no stock, has an airport, has no members, and has only a BOD that is apointed by the Corp. President, and no one to answer to and apparently no paper work legally binding it to PRA.

That is my problem with this whole deal and the 75 year old professional corporate tax and finance advisor I talked with, who has worked with things like this all his life, says it's a problem. So I Asked to see the paper work that says it is not a problem. Not Wednesdays paper it's Sunday and I want to see Sundays paper or just tell me you didn't get Sundays paper or the paper dones not exist. But don't tell me I shouldn't want to read it.

My agenda is to simply and legally bind them togeather if it can not be shown that they already are. No more No less.

KenSandyEggo

10-13-2004, 11:45 PM

"If it's not ours then who cares who owns it?'

All of us who pay dues if part of our money is being used to pay off the airport (and/or maintain it), that we don't own. Probably 99% of the members will never get to fly a gyro off the Mentone airport. This is sounding stinkier and stinkier. And the crap that the boys in Mentone donate a lot of time to maintenance and upkeep has nothing to do with the issue at hand. If someone else was paying off a piece of property for me, the least I would do is maintain it in appreciation....especially if I was one of the few who got to use it frequently.

Jamie doesn't have to use his spare time to delve into the paperwork of the corporation. As an elected board member, he was ENTITLED to that information. Who exactly is PRA Mentone and do they actually own the airport as Don says? If that's a fact, not one cent of our dues money should have been used for making payments on the loan or maintaining that field.

Rotornut

10-14-2004, 01:55 AM

Rotornut

10-14-2004, 01:58 AM

Maxie you posted/

Comon MJ!!

We know that is not true. I seem to remember that when you heard that Mike, Jamie and I were paid for the entertainment at the Texas PRA convention, you were very mad and very verbal about it. The thing is that I never have received any money for that or anything else from the PRA. But if you and Chuck think that it's coming I'll start looking for it. I don't recall getting an apology from you about that nor have I heard from Jamie or Mike that you gave them one.

It was believed that the PRA never paid for entertainment at the conventions. The truth is we paid $1,000.00 for the fireworks show the year before from Glenn and his buddies. Remember? The one that took place after everyone had left to get something to eat because there was no food at the Banquet. I'm sure we got our moneys worth even thou there were not many people there to see it.

MJ

jamiebodie

10-14-2004, 02:43 AM

Paul, you are right, I am angry. This should never have been allowed to go on this long. I have been asking the same questions for a long time. However, everyone puts in their two cents about why I am asking and I am forced to defend myself. Just like what you did. The is absolutely no vendetta here, if the question had been answered in a timely manner then no one except the board members would ever have even known that I had a question. I do not want to destroy the PRA, just the opposite. I want to see it thrive and even in the face of all the crap I have put up with over the last couple of years I have encouraged people to join the PRA. Do a search for my posts and you will see.

Everyone gets so caught up in the "why", they forget the question. This is not personal at any level. It is about getting a simple question answered. Although I must admit I am growing weary of the abuse and may soon give up without an answer.

Who are the shareholders of PRA Mentone, or who actually has legal controlling interest of PRA Mentone? Or written another way do the PRA members actually have any control over the airport that they are paying for and that they have been told is "theirs?" That is all that I want to know, when I find out this thing will be settled for me once and for all. This should be a reasonable question for anyone to ask and expect an answer to, let alone three board members.

I have come to believe over time that there is no legal association between the two BOD's and I hope that I am wrong. I am not implying wrong doing on anyone's part, but if this is how things are set up there is a huge door for someone to walkthough and all it would take is a little paperwork to close this door. The entities of PRA should be set up in the manner that best protects the PRA.

I am going to take a few days off from this forum. My questions have merit, my intentions are pure, I just want to know. Like I said before, had this question been answered while I was a board member - I would still be a board member and you guys would never even have known that I asked the question.

jamiebodie

10-14-2004, 02:53 AM

Johnathan you said / I am sorry more of you did not come and get to hear some of the total B.S that has been going on. It is a real shame that the pra seems to have degenerated into a civil war.

Johnathan, Where were we suppose to come to hear the BS? MJ

MJ, I think Jonathan was being a little "tongue in cheek" if you know what I mean. However, you were supposed to be there and we certainly missed having you there. I thought you guys were going to be able to make it?

GyroRon

10-14-2004, 03:24 AM

Rotors over Carolina MJ.

Rando

10-14-2004, 07:57 AM

The PRA has never said that if you join, you will become part owner of Mentone airport. The PRA has never asked members to make a payment towards the airport. I'm with Ron A. when he says that for $35.00 (soon to be $40.00) we get a magazine, nothing more. So what is the problem? I just don't get it.

Rando

10-14-2004, 08:04 AM

...or airport paid for by the membership, then there is a profit motive.

So here is the big question for me -
Who are the shareholders of PRA Mentone?

Who ever said that the membership is making the airport payment?

gyroman

10-14-2004, 08:57 AM

Actually Randy, the President did, look in one of the last President's notes on the back side of the cover page of one of the last issues of Rotorcraft magazine. (Sept I think) He states that we only have (2 or 3) years mortgage left on the airport then we can start using the payments to improve the airport. Don't quote me word for word cause I don't have the issue in front of me here at work but it says something close to this.

PRA

10-14-2004, 09:24 AM

Randy wrote:
Who ever said that the membership is making the airport payment?

Good point Randy. The current membership dues do not even cover all the expenses directly related to having a magazine and membership, much less all the other overhead that the P.R.A. has. That is way we have advertisers, sell Rotorwear and back issues of the magazine, and hopefully have a "profit making" Annual Convention, so that we can keep the P.R.A. going from year to year.

gyroplanes

10-14-2004, 09:57 AM

As I see it the PRA Mentone BoD controls the airport. Who are the current members of the airport BOD (PRA Mentone) and how many of them are current PRA members?

Does the PRA Mentone President "appoint" PRA Mentone BoD members? Are they not elected by the board?

If the airport is controlled by people with the best interest of PRA in mind, we should have no worries about what becomes of the airport.

KenSandyEggo

10-14-2004, 10:07 AM

"The PRA has never said that if you join, you will become part owner of Mentone airport." Really?

From the PRA website:

"PRA is a worldwide organization with members in over 80 countries and with headquarters at Mentone, Indiana, USA at the PRA Mentone Airport, an airport owned by the Popular Rotorcraft Association."

That all of the members are the "Popular Rotorcraft Association" seems pretty clear to me.

KenSandyEggo

10-14-2004, 10:28 AM

Posted by Tom Milton:

"As I see it the PRA Mentone BoD controls the airport. Who are the current members of the airport BOD (PRA Mentone) and how many of them are current PRA members?

Does the PRA Mentone President "appoint" PRA Mentone BoD members? Are they not elected by the board?"

Tom, as a board member of the PRA, it seems inconceivable to me and I'm sure to many others, that you don't have this information readily available to you and have to ask here. If an actual board member doesn't know, how should anyone here know? It just seems weird to me. If you're on the board, I'd think you'd know or find out if you vote or not on the make-up of the PRA Mentone BOD. Wouldn't a quick call to Gary G. give you this information instantaneously? Have you already asked? If you have, what were the results? Well, we know what the results were, but what was the dialogue if this was the case?

ToddP

10-14-2004, 11:36 AM

I just happened to have the February issue of Rotorcraft in my office and found the 2003 Financial Report.

The airport is only listed as an $802.81 expense for the PRA. However there are two additional line items where airport expenses could be:
Convention $10,974.42
Office $25,946.15

Pretty big office expenses for an organization like this:
The only assets you're going to find on the PRA books are a few junk-ass computers and some file cabinets in the PRA office.

Nice find on the PRA home page Ken J.. Whats the story there Don?

Rotornut

10-14-2004, 11:45 AM

Very Sorry we missed ROC.:( But Doc would not let me travel and I have been out of work since Sept 23. Geeez. But good news hope to be on the road to recovery. After a needle aspiration and surgery. But I do see light at the end of the tunnel!

MJ :)

gyroplanes

10-14-2004, 12:05 PM

Ken, I could have called Gary G. but then I'd be pestering him at work (he does have a day job) and then I'd have to type all of the names here. This would then become "second hand information" and as a board member, would you trust me?

This is a public forum and it is a question, that I felt, should should be asked and answered in public.

And another thing. I'm over 50. Do I have to remember everything ? I don't know if I could name all of the PRA BoD members and I'm one of them.

Does the airport belong to the members? You and I know that it does. I would, once again, like to end all of the airport controversy buy buying it from the PRA. I'll even let the PRA use it for free. I don't think you could put up the row of T-hangars for what we paid for the whole place.

If you want conspiracy check out http://letsroll911.org/articles/controlleddemolition.html

And let us build the PRA.

Heron

10-14-2004, 02:52 PM

Wow!Things are moving fast around here!
It is getting clearer by the day . . .
Tatoo (JB) is yelling "The plane . . .The Plane . . .( but he is really saying the papers . . .the papers) and Mr Rourke (GG) throws a fit . . .nah ,wrong Island, no room for Dan and Maxie . . . Maybe they could be Starsky and Hutch . . .
Kenny Kojaclevisky could investigate the paper trail (green papers that is) and find out if our money is going to the airport and then we've found the shareholders . . .
If they have all the set up (BOD etc) they should have investors or any kind of revenue to pay for it, right?
Oh . . .I get it . . .why don't we trade all our old issues of the Magazine for the airport?
You think they would go for it?
Heron (half way to rejoin and have the right of speech reinstated)

Brent_Brown

10-14-2004, 03:06 PM

Office $25,946.15
I said this to myself when I read that too. What office is 26,000 a year? This has to be a typo.
PRA can rent a office from me and I can pay off my home or buy the runway I use here.

Rando

10-14-2004, 03:17 PM

I believe the only 2 people that receive a salary are the editor/publisher and the PRA office manager. That must be the annual salary of the office manager.

Brent_Brown

10-14-2004, 03:22 PM

sounds about right

jamiebodie

10-14-2004, 03:28 PM

I believe the only 2 people that receive a salary are the editor/publisher and the PRA office manager. That must be the annual salary of the office manager.

Pam can answer that question the next time she stops in.

jb

Dean_Dolph

10-14-2004, 04:16 PM

Pay for working for this group should include combat pay!

ToddP

10-14-2004, 08:55 PM

Nope, salaries were another line item...approx $40,000.00 I left my mag at work, I'll have the exact number tomorrow.

KenSandyEggo

10-14-2004, 10:43 PM

Tom, I have this gut feeling that you're someone to be trusted.

jamiebodie

10-15-2004, 02:08 AM

Tom wrote:
If the airport is controlled by people with the best interest of PRA in mind, we should have no worries about what becomes of the airport.

Get ready because this is going to surprise all of you. I trust Gary G. completely. However, since he is human there is a chance that something could happen to him. If this were to happen we could be in real trouble. I don't know who is in line behind Gary, but Gary is the only one that I have that much trust in. If things were set up properly it would not matter.

Tom, taking an investment that large and trusting other people with it is just silly. You wouldn't sign your house over to even your best friend would you? He would have your best interest in mind?????????

Stuff happens! When it does we should be prepared.

ToddP

10-15-2004, 08:23 AM

Here is the PRA 2003 Income Statement

http://www.rotaryforum.com/images/incomestate.jpg

gyroplanes

10-15-2004, 11:18 AM

Tom wrote:

Get ready because this is going to surprise all of you. I trust Gary G. completely. However, since he is human there is a chance that something could happen to him. If this were to happen we could be in real trouble. I don't know who is in line behind Gary, but Gary is the only one that I have that much trust in. If things were set up properly it would not matter.

Tom, taking an investment that large and trusting other people with it is just silly. You wouldn't sign your house over to even your best friend would you? He would have your best interest in mind?????????

Stuff happens! When it does we should be prepared.

Jamie, you missed my point. I understand that "Things Happen" and people can change. In my life I've seen people turn 180 degrees.
I was asking about the PRA Mentone BoD because they control the airport. I don't think the Pres. of PRA Mentone can do much without the consent of the board. Maybe I'm wrong.

KenSandyEggo

10-15-2004, 03:33 PM

Brent_Brown

10-15-2004, 04:01 PM

Come on Ken you know office is well office.

jamiebodie

10-15-2004, 04:18 PM

Tom, you missed my point. There is a better way to have these organizations set up that would take care of all the worries.

Jamie

The only rights you truly have are the ones you can defend.

madmax

10-15-2004, 06:49 PM

As Jamie and I have stated over and over again. There is a better way to set up the 2 Corporations so there would be no concerns about some one turning 180% and then we lose out on the airport. This, in our opinion needs to be handled promptly if it has not already been handled. The problem here is that we don't know whether or not it is set up for our best protection because we can't get an answer from Gary or Glenn. The paper they send answers nothing other than there 2 separate Corporations. We already know that.
So that brings a couple of things to mind.

Tom

I called and received the paper work from Indiana. They could not produce the Bylaws for PRA Mentone even thou they are required by law to have them on hand. So we really don't know what the President can or can not do with or without the PRA Mentone BOD approval and even if it is in the Bylaws, They could be changed at the next Board meeting.

Also I think that Gary, being the President of a world wide Organization and has chosen to run for the BOD and then President, would understand that he might get a call from concerned PRA members and certainly would not take offence when he received a call from another Board member.

MJ

Have you received an opinion from your Account yet?
Can he answer our question?
You have confused me! You said when you received the papers that the PRA and it's members own the Airport. Then after Todd's post #85 you said that you may need to rethink your position. So! Was it your opinion or the accountants opinion you had first stated.

Tom

We (Jamie, Dan and I) didn't know that the airport had it's own BOD until the PRA Board meeting at Mentone 2003, that's when I first asked this question, and I had been on the Board for 9 years. You were on the BOD before me, so I must ask. Did you know that PRA Mentone had it's on BOD/ And if so when did you find out?

gyroplanes

10-16-2004, 05:36 PM

Tom

We (Jamie, Dan and I) didn't know that the airport had it's own BOD until the PRA Board meeting at Mentone 2003, that's when I first asked this question, and I had been on the Board for 9 years. You were on the BOD before me, so I must ask. Did you know that PRA Mentone had it's on BOD/ And if so when did you find out?

I came back on the board the year after the airport was purchased.

At the time of the purchase the worry was that an accident at the airport could bankrupt the PRA or that the airport itself could become a financial burden and bring down the PRA. We were told that the PRA's lawyer and accountant had set up the legalities and were trying to protect the PRA's assets.

The BOD at the time, I think, was Chaired by Gary Goldsberry, and consisted of Art Evans, Roger Wood, Glenn Bundy, a local minister? and / or someone from the Mentone Bell Museum. They wanted to involve the community.

That's the best I can do from memory.

KenSandyEggo

10-16-2004, 07:20 PM

PRA's assets? As I recall, we were just told that the assets consisted of a junk computer and something like a desk and chair. Lawyers have to be consulted and paid to protect those assets? I still want to know where 26 thousand dollars is spent on "Office" expenses. So does it all go for computer repair by some board-member's cousin? I'm guessing and it looks more and more that it goes to pay off the mortgage on an airport that Gary and his secretive buddies own and are now scrambling to keep the **** from hitting the fan. All they can think of is to be quiet and hope it'll all go away. If this were not the case, it would have been so simple to be honest and aboveboard to clear things up, which they seem unwilling to do.

We all send in part of that 26 thousand dollars and I want to know what it is being spent on. If none of the board-members can find out this info, then the board is an impotent tag-a-long of a "good ole boy" gang trying to protect their asses from being exposed. I'd like for any board member to call Gary and simply state that some of the members he represents wants the answer to who owns the airport, who's on that board and which moneys are being used to pay it off. Ask him if any of the 26k in office expenses is being used, and if he says not, then ask where the 26k is going into that luxurious office......crystal chandeliers, Berber carpets, gold faucets, catered lunches for the staff? This whole think is starting to reek. What were they trying to hide when 3 elected board members asked for some of this info?

madmax

10-17-2004, 07:58 AM

KenSandyEggo (Quote)

I'd like for any board member to call Gary and simply state that some of the members he represents wants the answer to who owns the airport,

What were they trying to hide when 3 elected board members asked for some of this info?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think you answered your own question. If history holds true they can ask the question now and in about 1 1/2 years they may get tired of waiting.

What needs to happen is every board member needs to want to see the papers that show ownership. They need to stand together when asking for them and those on the Board that are not interested in proving ownership needs to be removed from the Board , because they have just demonstrated that they do not have the members (the ones that voted them in office) best interest in mind.

PS

At the BensenDays Board meeting 2004, I put a motion on the floor that the Mentone airport come under the PRA Board of directors and the PRA Mentone Board be dismantled. Dan Leslie seconded it. Dan and I were the only 2 that voted for it. That is when we realized that we were fighting a losing battle (no ownership, and no controll) and we both resigned in protest. Just to let you know how the others stand on this issue. Jamie had already resigned and was not at the meeting, Glenn was late, Joe Swanton didn't make it and I'm not sure if Tom was there.

Now we know Jamie wants to prove ownership, Glenn supports Gary, Tom and Joe will have to speak for them selves as they really have not reviled their position. Well unless Tom was at the BensenDays Board meeting, then that would just leave Joe.

madmax

10-17-2004, 07:54 PM

So what's the almost 26k for "Office?" Is that the rent that the PRA is being charged to rent space from whomever.....$2162.18 per month!!?? I wonder how close to this number the monthly mortgage payment for the airport is.....minus of course a box of paper-clips and ball-point pens and a few stamps. Since salaries are already covered, I'd sure like to know how this amount is spent. The word "Office" doesn't cut it when you're talking 26k, about 17% of the total expenses for the Association.
__________________
KenSandyEggo aka Kenny J. aka Ken Janulewicz

I think the rental payment to PRA Mentone is coming out of that amount. I think it is about $1,000.00 a month, more or less. Then PRA Mentone uses that money to make the airport payment. Look back a few years ago and you will see where we (the PRA) paid over $30,000.00 to resurface the runway. I'm not sure how that money was shown. Maybe Pam can get that information for us.

KenSandyEggo

10-17-2004, 10:54 PM

We paid 30 grand to resurface a runway that we don't own? I'd say that PRA Mentone owes us (PRA members) 30 thousand dollars then. Is $1,000 per month the market rate in that area for a space the size of the PRA office....taking into consideration that it's not in a metropolitan area and is out in the boonies, not even in a viable commercial area? Could we imagine or expect a thriving 7-11 store if one took over the office space and opened for business, or any retail business?

Something like this would typically go for about 35-40 cents per square foot, if that. Is the PRA office anywhere near 2,500 square feet, the size of a pretty decent-sized 4 bedroom house? That would still leave well over $1,000 per month to "Office." Where is the rest going? Sounding to me that PRA Mentone, who seems to own the airport, is charging PRA an exhorbitant amount for office rent that is used to make the payments on their airport and also charging us for major maintenance. Sounds like a pretty well thought out plan that may be unravelling as evidenced by all the tight-lips and secrecy. Thank you Internet!

No wonder the "good-ole boys" of the world's largest gyro organization don't care to post on the world's largest gyro forum. Too many honest questions being asked it seems. I never did believe those stories about being "too busy" or being computer-illiterate. If you can read and write, you can post. No one works 24 hours per day. Most prolific posters here seem to have day-jobs that consume a lot of their time, yet there is made time to post.

scott heger

10-17-2004, 11:55 PM

Ken, Unless things have changed, that trailer is no 4 bedroom house. I also want to be their bank, $2800+ in bank fees? This smells worse than low tide at the pier.

Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel, Ca N86SH

madmax

10-18-2004, 02:57 AM

Now it looks like you are understanding the reason we continue to ask for proof of ownership and ignore the slander even thou we are no longer on the board. We were hoping resigning together at the BensenDays Board meeting would raise enough eyebrows before the convention so that members there would demand proof, but this works. Just remember,
If we do own both Organizations then there is no problem. At least nothing really major That can't be fixed before it is to late. Just show us the paper that binds us together!!!!!!!

Rotornut

10-18-2004, 03:21 AM

Maxie, When I know something I will post it. As for Todds post it brought up more questions for me, not that I doubt the Airport Ownership, other doubts about PRA and the $.

The accountants opionion was what I posted. Already learned that my opionion with you does not count!

First things First. I am going to be having surgery and will not be up to Par. So dont wait on me for any solid answers soon. MJ

Maxie said/

MJ

Have you received an opinion from your Account yet?
Can he answer our question?
You have confused me! You said when you received the papers that the PRA and it's members own the Airport. Then after Todd's post #85 you said that you may need to rethink your position. So! Was it your opinion or the accountants opinion you had first stated.

Heron

10-18-2004, 04:34 AM

Since the beginning there is a big "IF" on the whole deal.
If they do what they say they will, that is going to be a sweet deal, but what IF?
Way before this came around, no anwers is the modus operandi up there, maybe if we go knocking on that door . . .?
Heron

Dean_Dolph

10-18-2004, 05:28 AM

Hey, Ken, the PRA Board needs members(s) from the West coast so why don't you run next time? That should break up any 'good ole boy' network.

chuter

10-18-2004, 06:05 AM

MJ,
Best wishes for your surgery, hope all goes well. :o

gyroplanes

10-18-2004, 07:35 AM

Jamie & Maxie,

You say there are ways to protect the PRA from lawsuits arising from ownership of the airport and vice versa and still allow co-ownership. Please tell us how? I will present your solution to Gary (something you guys should have done instead of quitting) and maybe we can put and end to this and get back to the business of growing the PRA.

Kenny J.,

I will give up my "good old boy" position on the BOD and back your effort to get elected. Hey, it worked for Dave DeWinter!

Mary j.,

Good luck and best wishes for a speedy recovery.

PRA,

I can't wait to see the breakdown of the expenses so we can put this to rest as well.

KenSandyEggo

10-18-2004, 08:48 AM

Dave DeWinter got fed up and left too. That rule about having to attend meetings in Mentone seems a slick way to keep outsiders out of the local fold and keep things tight to the chest. How many of us are capable of taking time off from our paying jobs to attend a voluntary-type meeting half-way across the country? In these days of the Internet and conference-calling, that rule is totally archaic, but seems to serve the purpose to keep things mostly local. I know that there are a few that can take the time to travel all that way, but most of us can't.

A good reason I can't spend a lot of outside time on things is because of the way I somewhat screwed up a particular part of my life by never working or staying at a job or business I was either burned-out at or bored with. Once I entered either of those states, for mental-health reasons, I had to move on. Therefore, I have no pension income (other than S.S.) and will have to be working until the day they try to shove me into the oven or ground, barring some fortunate happenstance, like winning the Lottery.

Tom, I didn't mean to infer that you were one of the "good ole boys," because I don't think you are, any more than those board members that resigned in disgust.........also, because it seems that you are purposely kept out of the loop as evidenced by your questions that seem like a board member should know the answers to.

Doug Riley

10-18-2004, 09:27 AM

Modern corporate bylaws ordinarily include a provision allowing electronic meetings, by conference call, Email, videoconference etc. Even the videocon is apt to be cheaper than an airline ticket or 1500-mile car trip... to say nothing of the value of your time. Most smart people are busy and their time is valuable, so they may not be willing to sign onto an obligation to show up in person. We ought not to chase them away with an obsolete requirement.

donshoebridge

10-18-2004, 09:56 AM

The airport is only listed as an $802.81 expense for the PRA. However there are two additional line items where airport expenses could be:
Convention $10,974.42
Office $25,946.15

Pretty big office expenses for an organization like this:

Nice find on the PRA home page Ken J.. Whats the story there Don?

Obviously, I don't have any details on these numbers since I don't keep the books.

Rotornut

10-18-2004, 10:11 AM

Ken one of the meetings is in Florida at BD Days. Join and you can come visit Sunstate Ch# 26. MJ :)
ps/ Thanks for the well wishes. Dont foresee any problems but ya never know!

Rotornut

10-18-2004, 10:16 AM

madmax

10-18-2004, 08:28 PM

Quote from Tom.

Jamie & Maxie,

You say there are ways to protect the PRA from lawsuits arising from ownership of the airport and vice versa and still allow co-ownership. Please tell us how? I will present your solution to Gary (something you guys should have done instead of quitting) and maybe we can put and end to this and get back to the business of growing the PRA.

Tom

give us the answer to our question. If you can tell us that PRA does not own PRA Mentone then do so, then we can give you a solution. We feel first it helps to know if there is a problem.

How ever to show you that my heart is in the right place, I'll help you out with a problem that we all know about.

Problem:

Getting information out of the PRA headquarters and/or president.

Solution:

PRA Headquarters and /or President should copy and release accurate and complete information with a true intent statement in a timely manor.

Please feel free to pass this along to Gary. Hope it helps!!

madmax

10-18-2004, 08:43 PM

Quote from MJ:

The accountants opionion was what I posted. Already learned that my opionion with you does not count!

My Accountants opinion is why I started asking questions a year and a half ago. I learned over 2 years ago my opinion didn't count with you, so don't try and make it personal. It is after all just an opinion.

You trust Gary, fine.

Ronald Regan's rule was, Trust but verify. I like it that rule

PS

Good luck with your surgery.

donshoebridge

10-19-2004, 04:17 AM

Don, Your Ideas to ponder/ NO (only my 2 cents) / Chapter Presidents should not be PRA Board alone, dont see why they could not if they wanted to just cant see only the Ch Presidents being allowed.

Richard says being the Pres of Sunstate is all he can handle.
NO Board Duty for him so he says.
MJ :)

There is a lot more to my "idea" than I could fit in my signature. I'd by happy to discuss it in more detail, if you're intersted? (new thread)

donshoebridge

10-19-2004, 04:53 AM

It was either Jamie or Ron that mentioned that I would have a nice airport to gain by defending the PRA's position on this matter. Or something to that effect. To whichever one mentioned that, could you please look at a Chicago sectional. Look where Huntington, Indiana is (southwest of Ft. Wayne), and then look at where Mentone is. As a crow flies, if 39 miles. By car/truck/rickshaw, it's 45 miles. Using Huntington as a center point, look at how many other airports there are with in a 39/45 mile radius. Many of these other airports are gyro friendly. Hell, I even have a 1500 foot private grass strip 3 houses down from me, and yes I have permission to use it.

I'm taking the side of the PRA and Gary NOT because I have anything to gain, because I don't. I'm taking their side because I know that they have aviation in their heart, unlike the a-hole neighbors on the south end of 36. That was not a slam to anyone in the south either. I really mean that there is a house at the south end of 36 where a group of anti-aviation buffs live, and they would like nothing more than to see the airport closed.

At the rate that airports have been closing around the US (Meigs in Chicago, Mason in Michigan, etc.), and other attempts (Smith Field in Ft. Wayne), it's really nice to see someone actually try to keep an airport open, and I'm sure that’s primary in Gary's mind, as well as many others in this forum. So if my $35 a year helps to keep another airport open, then tell me where to send the check. Because to most of us, that's all that matters. I could care less if Gary ends up owning the airport outright, and that the PRA paid for it. Landlords do the same thing with rental properties - buy a house and let someone else pay the mortgage.

I sincerely doubt that Gary or anyone else would intentionally structure the PRA and PRA Mentone Inc. in such a way that someone could steal, sue, blackmail, etc., the airport from under Gary, or whoever actually owns the airport. As long as the airport stays open and gyro friendly, who cares? I have yet to see any lawyers up on this forum spelling out every detail of the incorporation paperwork, and I doubt that any of us will see that. We’re all up here trying to be arm-chair presidents and CEO’s, and we are getting NO WHERE!

Earlier this year when Maxie's letter hit this forum, I made the statement that if you think you can do a better job at either running an aviation organization (like a PRA or EAA), or operating an airport, then have at it. There is nothing stopping you. In fact, I’m challenging you! Go find a piece of property, open an airport, start an aviation organization, and if your methods are better, then you and your organization should prosper. And if you can pull it off, you would have all kinds of “stuff” to rub in the faces of the pro-PRA and pro-PRA Mentone Inc. types, such as myself. Because so far, we’ve all being going round-and-round and nothing has changed except for membership numbers.

jamiebodie

10-19-2004, 09:45 AM

Tom, I/we could not propose a solution when the question of IF there is a problem still to this day has not been answered. Remember, the orginal question here is not about expenses at all. Heck, I can't get a straight answer to a question and you think I should have stuck around and presented a solution? I got fed up with the fight for this answer and getting the board to stick to it's own by-laws (getting you put in place on the board for one) and needed to give it up. In short being on the board was not worth the constant fight to do the right thing.

Tom, why hasn't our question been answered about the relationship between PRA and PRA Mentone? BTW, Maxie and Dan did present a solution before they stepped down from the board, you could run that one by Gary again if you like.

Brent_Brown

10-19-2004, 12:21 PM

In fact, I’m challenging you! Go find a piece of property, open an airport, start an aviation organization

Don that was not the case with the PRA. they had a pool of dues paying members then found a airport, told us we got a airport and by the way its not yours when its piad for out of your dues.

That is why I have trouble with this thing. If all we get is a Mag. then it should not have it cut back on along with the web site to support the airport.

OK you can send me your 40 buck to help keep my grass cut at my runway.

KenSandyEggo

10-19-2004, 12:50 PM

I think I'll send my 40 bucks to Children's Hospital next time around. At least I'll know what the money is being used for.

KenSandyEggo

10-19-2004, 01:01 PM

"Because so far, we’ve all being going round-and-round and nothing has changed except for membership numbers."

Nothing has changed because the elected president of our organization decided to withhold information that every board member and organization member is entitled to know. There are no secrets in an incorporated organization. Full disclosure is mandatory. If this isn't settled soon, the membership numbers will be going down faster than a high-diver at the last Olympics, and can all be laid on Gary's shoulders.

jamiebodie

10-19-2004, 05:44 PM

Two points, one for Tom and one for Don,

Tom, you were on the BOD when Maxie and I were fighting trying to get this information. Where were you then? You knew what was going on and that we were desperately trying to get the information that showed the relationship between PRA and PRA Mentone. You were no where to be found, just one of the silent ones. Sorry buddy, but you had the chance to help us out and did nothing.

Don wrote:
I sincerely doubt that Gary or anyone else would intentionally structure the PRA and PRA Mentone Inc. in such a way that someone could steal, sue, blackmail, etc., the airport from under Gary, or whoever actually owns the airport. As long as the airport stays open and gyro friendly, who cares? I have yet to see any lawyers up on this forum spelling out every detail of the incorporation paperwork, and I doubt that any of us will see that. We’re all up here trying to be arm-chair presidents and CEO’s, and we are getting NO WHERE!

NO ONE said anything about anyone intentionally doing anything. However, if there is a better way to set things up than the way there are set up now then why not change it? By looking at your quote above it looks like you are saying we should just take the easy way out and just leave things the way they are just because we don't deserve or need to know the truth about the way things are set up. This is not a difficult question to answer and there are at least a couple of BOD members who could come up with the answer to this question very easily, but they don't. Ever wonder why?

madmax

10-19-2004, 06:46 PM

Don Quote:

Earlier this year when Maxie's letter hit this forum, I made the statement that if you think you can do a better job at either running an aviation organization (like a PRA or EAA), or operating an airport, then have at it. There is nothing stopping you. In fact, I’m challenging you! Go find a piece of property, open an airport, start an aviation organization, and if your methods are better, then you and your organization should prosper. And if you can pull it off, you would have all kinds of “stuff” to rub in the faces of the pro-PRA and pro-PRA Mentone Inc. types, such as myself. Because so far, we’ve all being going round-and-round and nothing has changed except for membership numbers.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Don

Please look up on your chart 9GA1 It is a airport just north of Springfield, Ga. which is just north of Savannah Ga, It is about 48 mile from where I live. I go there every week. Look up the owner operator. You will find that it is in the name of (Briar Patch) if you look at the owner operator you will find that it is in the name of Maxie Wildes. So feel free to send your $40.00 check to me as it is also a Gyro friendly airport. Thanks in advance for your support!!!

scott heger

10-19-2004, 09:36 PM

Someone earlier mentioned that $30,000 was expended by PRA for the Mentone airport repaving. If the airport is not "ours"(ok, at least the PRA's),why was that done for the owners of the airport ? Do I have the facts straight?

Scott Heger. Laguna Niguel, Ca N85SH

KenSandyEggo

10-19-2004, 11:37 PM

Scott, you're probably going to have to travel to Mentone to get some answers. One good thing is that you won't need a GPS. You can just follow the stench.

donshoebridge

10-20-2004, 04:09 AM

Please look up on your chart 9GA1 It is a airport just north of Springfield, Ga. which is just north of Savannah Ga, It is about 48 mile from where I live. I go there every week. Look up the owner operator. You will find that it is in the name of (Briar Patch) if you look at the owner operator you will find that it is in the name of Maxie Wildes. So feel free to send your $40.00 check to me as it is also a Gyro friendly airport. Thanks in advance for your support!!!

You start somekind of an aviation orginization, complete with a magazine and I'll send you the $40.

KenSandyEggo

10-20-2004, 06:28 AM

Don, you can be the first member, so send you're 40 bucks in and they'll use it to put together some sort of magazine. Wouldn't it be neat to have membership card #1? :p

donshoebridge

10-20-2004, 09:21 AM

Don, you can be the first member, so send you're 40 bucks in and they'll use it to put together some sort of magazine. Wouldn't it be neat to have membership card #1? :p

If I'm going to be the first member, then I'm also going to be the guy who puts together the orginization, ie, Igor Bensen - PRA #1.

Texas Armadillo

10-20-2004, 10:37 AM

Hi,

I'm about halfway through my initial 3 year PRA membership. Wow, there are some hard feelings out there on the airport subject huh? And the end result of all this "debate" that I can understand, at least, (hoping I got the facts right, please forgive me if I don't) is this...

1. "PRA Mentone" is a seperate entity from the "Popular Rotorcraft Association", that I am currently a member of.

2. PRA Mentone has a seperate Board of Directors than that of the regular PRA, but it has been suggested that some (but not all) persons may be serving on both boards at the same time. So PRA Mentone will probably always do what the PRA requests... but, they don't really have to. No has produced a list of the PRA Mentone board members that I saw. PRA Mentone has no members to answer to either.

3. For liability and/or other reasons, it is PRA Mentone that owns the airport. And since no one has proved otherwise, PRA Mentone is not directly answerable to the PRA regarding the airport. The BOD for PRA Mentone are answerable only to themselves.

4. This arrangement has caused the resignations of PRA board members and a lot of ill feelings and harsh statements. Mostly due to the felling that it is/was PRA funds that were used to purchase the airport, that they have no control over. And also from people that don't live near Mentone who feel their dues have gone toward buying an airport for the use of a very small number of PRA members, and the rest of us just get the magazine.

5. Even though it was not an official PRA statement, Pam implies (in post 80 and 101) that since membership dues do not even cover the cost of the magazine, that it could be said that the payments made to the airport and the payments made for improving the runway were made with funds from advertisers, rotorwear, and selling back issues of magazines. So therefore the membership dues are not paying for the airport. So every one should stop complaining about it.

6. Pam also states that since the PRA is in "dire straights" that we should all go out and drag more members into the PRA to make it healthy again, instead of complaining about what the PRA spends its funds on. I'm kind of reading between the lines of your post Pam, so if I misunderstood, I apologize now.

What do I think of this? (Like someone really cares) :)

I wonder, does the airport rent out any space? Does it make money? Are the PRA members allowed to see the financials of PRA Mentone and the airport? Probably not since PRA Mentone is seperate, and has no members. So, who watches the PRA Mentone BOD's to make sure the airport funds are properly spent? There must be checks and balances in place, aren't there?

Maybe if the PRA is so tight on cash, maybe you shouldn't have bought the danged airport or spent 30 grand repaving it to start with. I guess times were better back when the decision was made.

If you want more members, I suggest calling up the BOD's over at PRA Mentone and telling them to go sign some folks up. The funds could be used to replace the trailer(?) with a new office and computers.

Just don't bother to try to get me to re-up when my membership expires. Unless you plan on buying this grass strip I'm on and paving it.

I will do one thing to save you money... you can stop sending me the magazine.

I hope I didn't get too many things wrong... or maybe I do...

Heron

10-20-2004, 12:39 PM

Glad to see more people involved, not glad to see the solution still faraway.
The gentleman suggesting that unsatisfied members go form another association is so off the mark that is even funny. THE GUYS ARE TRYING TO GET THIS ONE TO WORK PROPERLY AND PROSPER . . . .right guys?
And for heavens sake . . .where are you Mr. GG when we need you the most?
thanks
Heron

Brent_Brown

10-20-2004, 03:18 PM

Pam implies (in post 80 and 101) that since membership dues do not even cover the cost of the magazine, that it could be said that the payments made to the airport and the payments made for improving the runway were made with funds from advertisers, rotorwear, and selling back issues of magazines. So therefore the membership dues are not paying for the airport. So every one should stop complaining about it.

I see again that the PRA money used for the airport and not the MAG or web site that is in need of it. We should still have a calinder but the airport won out on that too.

KenSandyEggo

10-20-2004, 03:18 PM

Oh, Jeff. Just what we need....another rabble-rousing malcontent who doesn't just follow with blind faith when he sends his money in and actually wants to know for whom it's being spent. What gall! :rolleyes:

KenSandyEggo

10-20-2004, 03:29 PM

Brent eloquently posted:

"Pam implies (in post 80 and 101) that since membership dues do not even cover the cost of the magazine, that it could be said that the payments made to the airport and the payments made for improving the runway were made with funds from advertisers, rotorwear, and selling back issues of magazines. So therefore the membership dues are not paying for the airport. So every one should stop complaining about it."

I'd venture to say that the dues do not cover the cost of the magazine because the dues are being diverted to pay for and maintain the airport. It seems to me that we were told that the PRA paid for the repaving. 30 grand would print up quite a few magazines.

Who does the money belong to that comes from advertising, rotorwear and selling back issues? This money belongs to the PRA, not some secret owners of the airport! Why the hell is it being diverted to the airport? That money should go into running the PRA, which includes publishing the magazine. Who is donating our money to PRA Mentone for their airport? Geee....let me guess. It would have to be someone that sits on both boards. We only know of one so far. Are there more?

KenSandyEggo

10-20-2004, 03:33 PM

Jeff, sounds like you have a pretty good handle on it.

Brent_Brown

10-20-2004, 03:41 PM

I posted in another thread that the ASC has a Rotor wing and I,m sure they would like to add 4000 new members.

KenSandyEggo

10-20-2004, 03:57 PM

I just figured out why no one in Mentone is saying anything. They've watched those cop shows where the cop says: "Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law." I'd say that there are some serious legal implications starting to surface here in this smelly deal. When you accept funds from someone and divert those funds to enrichen yourself, that's fraud. You can't obtain dues from a group for the running of the PRA and then use those funds to buy yourself an airport and to continue using those funds to maintain it and telling the group that they own the airport when in fact they do not. What right did they have to take 30 grand in income from the PRA and spend it on repaving their airport?

Texas Armadillo

10-20-2004, 05:44 PM

I promise, I'm not normally this long winded... ask Dean Dolph! (grin) He's not going to like my posts here very much. Sorry Dean... HI!

I'll be the first to admit I'm new at this discussion and folks like Dean have been around the PRA for almost more years than I have been alive. Maybe I should keep my mouth shut, but I can't, because PRA Mentone seems unwatched by my understanding of the earlier posts. That doesn't mean anything is wrong or that Gary or anyone else has misbehaved (I have only heard sparkling comments on this man) in any way. It just means I would like to know if the BOD's of PRA Mentone, who is evidently the only executers of the airport have a review from outside? And if so who is it? If the place was purchased using PRA funds of any kind, then it is my humble opinion that the PRA members be in review of it. Is this why Maxie and others have resigned?

I want to say that my previous post made no allegations or implied any deliberate miss-conduct or deliberate deceipt. Only that maybe "we" didn't make the best decisions for the good of the whole. As I understand the facts to be. Hey, but who am I (a relative newbie) to question the actions of people who have spent years working for free, or nearly so.

If the facts in the earlier posts were accurate, my post was simply to state my understanding of those posts. And that money spent to buy and repair an airfield that would benifit only a fraction of the members could maybe have been used better doing things for everyone... like keeping the magazines running or helping each chapter get a two place trainer in the air. (I also apologized if my understanding of the facts were wrong.) And the airport has one major meeting a year? Instead the money was used to secure Mentone, which probably is a good thing for the future if it were made profitable. If Mentone can be made into a profitable venture by rent of space (T-Hangers) and that money used to help the chapters, (which I have never seen) then it could be a very good thing for everyone.

My main concerns are not that some devious plan was in the works, but that "we" made a major financial decision that 90% of the members will never benefit from, unless Mentone gives back to the PRA and in turn helps each chapter. If you tell me that for my membership, I get t-shirt and a magazine, but the magazine will have to be cut back so "we" can pave "our" new airport (that I probably will never see) and that since it's out of our (members of the PRA) ability to control... then I have a problem with that, and rightly so. So, don't get so upset at those crying foul on these events... they have a point.

My other concern is who is minding the store? "IF" the two entities are separate, (not clear yet) and the two BOD's are independent from one another, and PRA Mentone has no membership to report to... who watches them?

I was taught to never bring up a problem if I didn't have a solution to solve it. So, (if what I have understood is actually true and accurate) I move that we make all PRA members also members of PRA Mentone. And the BOD's of PRA Mentone be responsible to the wishes of the whole, meaning the members of the PRA. Just as the BOD's of the PRA is responsible to us now. No change of ownership or change need be made other than to maybe write on a notorized(?) document that any decision (maybe over a certain value of dollars) made by PRA Mentone must first be voted on and approved by the members of the PRA, who are also in respect members of PRA Mentone.

What say yee?

(dang, I have that 1790 French lawyer thang down, don't I?)

Please feel free to straighten me out on my errors, I have a thick skin and am not out to flame Gary or any other hard working, under paid, contributer to the PRA. And Pam, please don't be upset at me, I did not mean to put words in your mouth or distort your comments.

js

madmax

10-20-2004, 05:59 PM

Well guys, I must say that I was there when the runway was paved. I believed as I was told that the PRA owned the airport. Any discussions about the airport was always presented in a manor that always lead us/me to believed that we (the PRA) owned the airport. There was a $10,000.00 escrow that was set up when the airport was sold that would go toward repaving the runway if repaved within 5 years of the purchase date or the seller gets his $10,000.00 back. So as the time came near Glenn brought up that we have to pave the runway or lose the escrow. Repaving cost around +- $40,000.00. Money was very tight then BUT we were looking at losing 10 grand if we didn't do it. So we bit the bullet and paved the runway.

Did I mention that Glenn is the other PRA board member that is on the PRA Mentone Board also.

As I said in earlier post. It was not until the 2003 Board meeting in Mentone that we learned PRA Mentone was a separate corporation with it's own BOD's. Which threw up a red flag to me so I asked a Corporate Accountant I know, his opinion and he said get the paper work and he will check it out. After a long fight we did get the paper work that Pam sent to MJ. Well my guy says that the corporations are sent up right but that there was no paper work showing a relationship between the two , so they are just 2 separate Nonprofit corporations and that it is perfectly legal for one to donate money to another. Just like the United Way (a nonprofit) gives money to other Nonprofits. Just because United Way gives money to say, the Salvation Army, after the Salvation Army deposits the check, the United Way still does not own any part of the Salvation Army and the Salvation Army still has it's own BOD's to spend it any way they want.

So we are still asking to see the paper work, a year and a half later.

Don

I sold my airport about 2 years ago. I don't want to own an other one. However if you were to do as I said you will find that the Government still has me as the owner. So I know that records may be misleading. How ever there are 3 copies of the paper work on the sale of my airport. I have one, the Buyer has one and the Lawyer has one. There is never any land sold without some proof of ownership and no corporate subsidiary without paper work. After all of this one can only conclude that there is no paper work therefore no relationship, therefore the PRA BOD's needs to handle this in a most urgent manor I would think. If this continues our loss could be great and we (the PRA) may not be able to survive another big loss like before.

I am glad to see so many of you starting to understand and care about this!!!!!!!

PW_Plack

10-20-2004, 06:20 PM

Jamie, Maxie...

I still think you guys are wasting time and bandwidth on this, and should apply pressure by starting to take it through legal channels, but maybe by bringing about a further decline in membership you'll achieve the same pressure. Too soon to know.

I've seen problems like this a few times in big volunteer organizations before, and it never started out as a sinister plot. A few really committed insiders spend their personal time and money to further an organization, without ever asking the members for reimbursement. They come to feel entitled to make big decisions like buying an airport, also without asking the members.

These insiders may have the purest of intent, but letting yourself invest too much personally in an organization you don't own, and then expecting to make major decisions without the approval of the members or board, are both mistakes.

What I don't understand is this: If someone sued the PRA out of existence, so what? Before the airport, what would their lawyers have got? The reason for having an organization set up as a corporation is to shield the officers, directors and stockholders or members from incurring liability outside their own personal actions. Now, if someone dies at the airport, they can still take the airport, with whatever PRA money has been spent on it, and they can sue the same directors, because they sit on both boards. So, what was gained?

If the PRA expects to grow its membership, this is an odd approach. I would really like to see this controversy resolved before I renew my membership in April 2005. And I'll never consider a life membership as long as it appears I'll outlive the PRA.

Texas Armadillo

10-20-2004, 07:43 PM

So who watches the BOD's for PRA Mentone? And why aren't the members of the PRA also members of PRA Mentone? Do the members of the PRA (who paid for Mentone) allowed to decide on investments on T- Hangers? Is this a waste of band width?

js

scott heger

10-20-2004, 07:53 PM

I think PRA Mentone needs to find 30K to "donate" back to PRA post-haste. I could recommend a mortage broker if they can't figure that part out on their own. If the above story is true about worrying about loosing 10 grand, so they dump 30 grand of PRA's money in.....well seems like good money after bad to me on the PRA's part. Remember, only a very small percentage of PRA members will ever use that airport. What the hell was the Board thinking?

If 100 PRA member's aircraft show up for the convention(I am not sure it is that many, help me out); and there are 4000 PRA members, that is only a 2.5 percent turnout per year. Seems like a huge squandering of very limited resources that benefit very few of us.

Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel, Ca N86SH

KenSandyEggo

10-20-2004, 09:46 PM

I wouldn't call owning an airport and obtaining its expensive maintenance with someone else's money "underpaid." The silence is getting deafening. Where are the answers to all these legitimate questions before the silence exterminates the PRA as we know it today? There is absolutely no reason in the world for the secretive members of the PRA board to be withholding this information. No matter how you slice it, it is not their money to do with as they please. Either PRA owns the airport or not. Either they used PRA funds to buy the airport for themselves or not. Either they are using funds earned by PRA to maintain their playground or not. Who is on the PRA Mentone Board and do they and not us own the airport or not? What is 26 thousand dollars of PRA money being spent on in the "Office?" Why do the bank fees seem so outrageous? Are they actual bank fees or interest on a loan? Why is the rent the PRA pays to PRA Mentone for trailer rental so high and where does that rental money go? Who determined that $1,000 per month is a fair market value for a trailer at a boondocks airport and who authorized the payment? Sounds like simple questions to answer.

Plus, notice on the statement that sales of merchandise, back issues and advertising is listed as income for the PRA. So that proves that is our money to maintain the PRA, not a private airfield. :mad:

Brent_Brown

10-21-2004, 02:34 AM

Thanks Ken that is what I was getting to the ssales of PRA goods.

jamiebodie

10-21-2004, 02:58 AM

Paul wrote
I still think you guys are wasting time and bandwidth on this, and should apply pressure by starting to take it through legal channels, but maybe by bringing about a further decline in membership you'll achieve the same pressure. Too soon to know.

Paul, I just don't see why we should take out our wallets and start paying a lawyer just because the leadership of the PRA won't respond to simple questions. Our goal is to get our question answered, any loss of membership is being caused by the PRA BOD by no responding. Had the question been answered while I was still a board member no one outside of the board would be involved in any of this. It seems that the blame for all if this mess is being shifted away from those who have the ability to put it all to an end.

Jamie

PS Does anyone remember how difficult it was to get a list of life members out of the PRA office and leadership? When the elections were held we needed the list to know who was eligible for nomination. Maxie, Dan, and myself headed up the fight to make sure the list was published to the members. Guys, these are board members asking to see a list of life members in an organization that the preside over AND WE STILL HAD TO FIGHT LIKE THERE WAS NO TOMORROW TO SEE THE LIST. Anyone who doesn't think this is a good ole boys club is either mislead or a GOB.

madmax

10-21-2004, 03:12 AM

We don't wasnt our $30,000.00 Back. We wasnt the Airports paper work to show us as the owners as it should. $30,000.00 is just a drop in the bucket of the value now. Remember we paid for it too, what ever that was. Plus maintenance, up keep, and increase in value. Nobody was ever after just the money back.

dkryzer

10-21-2004, 04:09 AM

It is so refreshing too see that members are finally starting to see the light about the PRA. I remember when the idea of purchasing the airport was brought up. Many members had the same quesiton. "How can we pay for it?" I was told by GG directly that much of the money would come from renting hanger space as well as renting out the airport to other organizations for fly-ins. Does anyone know how much $$$ has come in? I also remember GG addressing the PRA members telling us that this will be "OUR" airport. I thought I knew the definition of "OUR". I guess I didn't.

donshoebridge

10-21-2004, 04:38 AM

Regardless if the PRA or PRA Mentone Inc. makes a statement or produces documents showing the relationship between the two, I get the feeling that the same people are going to be pissed off about it, and still be yelling for either a separation of the 2, a change of leadership, closing of the airport, a check or cash payment, or something. I sincerely doubt there’s going to be any way to satisfy unhappy.

Maxie,

I'm glad you brought up United Way. Just because someone puts money into a group like that, does that give them the right to see their books? Not really. If you were on the board, then yes. But the flip side of the United Way is that with all of the money that they rake in, less than 2% actually gets used to help people. The remaining 98% gets eaten up by administrative costs, payroll, gifts, trips, and a pile of other crap. And this same thing can be said for almost every other similar organization. As for the PRA, I see a lot more than a 2% return on my $35 a year.

donshoebridge

10-21-2004, 04:44 AM

Someone earlier made mention that the PRA membership is PRA Mentone’s only income, or something to that effect. Not true. The airport has been available (for rent) to anyone that wants it. As far as I know, there has been 2 events other than the PRA convention – an RV club camped out there for a week or so this past summer, and the Heartland Pyrotechnics Association had a 3 day long convention there a few weeks ago. As far as I know, the money didn’t go to the PRA, but to PRA Mentone Inc. From there, it’s anybodies guess.

KenSandyEggo

10-21-2004, 05:10 AM

We're not donating money to PRA to do what they want with it. They are not a charity. We're paying dues for the upkeep and promotion of the organization. When you give money to United Way, you are not a member of that organization. We are members of PRA with voting rights, so yes, we should be able to scrutinize what's happening with our money.

Heron

10-21-2004, 09:41 AM

A little accounting should give us an idea of how much the airport is worth now and the balance to be paid, also how much money was taken from PRA to the other PRA and if any has to be given back.
If the plot is real then someone is about to have a nice airport just for themselves.
Moving the membership to another association I don't think is a good answer, we have to try everything before giving this one up.
Are there provisions in the by-laws to call for a referendum of some kind, maybe an impeachment if they don't comply? (my guess is not)
I wish we colul be discussing new events and programs for the betterment of gyros!
Heron

donshoebridge

10-21-2004, 09:50 AM

Voting rights? The only thing we can vote for are members of the BOD. In effect, they are our representatives. But just how good of a job can they do if they quit the board? Is that the kind of representation we want? I don't think so. This is exactly the reason why I think the chapter presidents should make up the BOD's, because then you have a personal relationship with the board, and if you don't like the job your "representative" is doing, you vote for someone else within a year, or you start your own chapter and become the president and board member in one shot.

But don't think for a moment that any vote that the members make is going to influence what PRA Mentone does, because it wont. You might be able to get the PRA BOD's to say something or do something, but not all of the PRA BOD's are members of the board of PRA Mentone Inc. I would be interested to see what the official relationship is between the PRA and PRA Mentone, but is it going to change anything. No.

Brian Jackson

10-21-2004, 12:22 PM

...But the flip side of the United Way is that with all of the money that they rake in, less than 2% actually gets used to help people. The remaining 98% gets eaten up by administrative costs, payroll, gifts, trips, and a pile of other crap.
Wrong. I don't know where you heard that, but United Way only uses 15 cents per dollar for administration, etc. Whirlpool Corporation, whom I work for, donates 50% of all United Way funding in this area, which is pretty remarkable. So I'm privy to the way UW's funds are distributed.

madmax

10-21-2004, 02:27 PM

I still Say that the way to insure as best as possible that the airport is in the hands of the PRA and remains there is to have the PRA BOD's (who are all PRA members) as the only BOD's and Govern over both Corporations.

And your wrong about not being satisfied. Put the Same BOD's over both Corporations and have it where it can not be split again with a 60/40 vote of the PRA membership. I'll be very happy. And for those whom it may concern!! I will not seek to run for the Board again if that would make you happy!!! I do not want an airport. I do not want to own an airport. I do not want to run an airport. I also do not want to see PRA lose their airport. We bought it, it should be ours and we should have the papers to prove it.

KenSandyEggo

10-21-2004, 04:01 PM

Don, what I meant is that we elect the board members and they are supposed to act in our best interests and vote on ALL matters accordingly. Therefore we do have a vote on everything that comes up through our board-member representatives.....except the stuff that is surreptitiously swept under the carpet and hidden from view.

GyroRon

10-21-2004, 04:01 PM

Why doesn't someone just make a list of these questions everyone here has about the airport and the moneys and so on, and just give Gary and or Glenn a phone call to get a official responce??????

I agree, they probably certainly know about this dicussion and they could easily jump in here and post a reply. But maybe they don't want to get dragged down into a pissing contest. They have stated that they welcome phone calls, so someone give them a call!

Would anyone like me to look up and post their phone numbers here?

Brent_Brown

10-21-2004, 04:01 PM

Gary writes in the Aug issue of PRA.

"PRA’s Airport and Home Base

I announced at the PRA Convention Banquet that we have 2 years and 3 months left to pay on the PRA Airport. Then, we will have a celebration to mark that achievement by the PRA members. There have been many improvements to the airport and the grounds that we can be all be proud of. When it is paid for, more improvements will be possible by using the money that now goes to the mortgage."

That says it all for me, we the PRA own the airport and will keep putting money into it.

Maybe someday the web site and mag will get this type of attention, that would be something we all get to use.

jamiebodie

10-21-2004, 04:38 PM

Texas Armadillo

10-21-2004, 06:10 PM

Thanx Brent,

Okay, that was all I needed to hear Sir. Thank you for your post Brent.

I live in Katy Texas, the "achievement" of using PRA money to buy and improve an airport in Indiana, for those that live near it, and to which the members of the PRA, that by the way have no review of it's finances, or have any say in its mangement, or will ever use, is insulting. Why not use that money to help ALL the chapters instead? That's not too far out of line is it?

Let's take this a piece at a time...

"There have been many improvements to the airport and the grounds that we can be all be proud of. "

Well, son of a gun, I saw that one coming, I'm happy and proud for those who live close enough to Mentone to enjoy those improvements. What flippin' achievement was made for the chapter members that don't/can't visit Mentone?

"When it is paid for, more improvements will be possible by using the money that now goes to the mortgage."

That's what I thought too, and eluded to in my earlier post. Next, you'll spend funds for a new office and other things that benefit only a few at Mentone. Maybe you'll tell me that the proceeds from Mentones rent income will help the PRA... I doubt it... since no one in the PRA can review the income statements of the airport. As a silly side note, I was born in Bloomington Indiana and my family moved to Texas for many reasons, one of which was to get away from things like this.

You take money from across the nation, from those who make up a group large enough to allow you to profit from advertising and sales, only to spend the proceeds on Mentone, not the chapters that ARE the PRA. But, you badger us to increase members... okay!

How can anyone question why the memberships are shrinking? What motivation do we (people who do not live near Mentone) have to continue to give you money or even try to gain more members, to pay in more money when the money is used to provide for the people near Mentone?

"That says it all for me, we the PRA own the airport and will keep putting money into it."

Oh, I have no doubt you'll be stuffing it full of cool things. Show me a document stating the members of the PRA own PRA Mentone. Please!

Yup, that is obvious and the proof that I can expect no help from the PRA. I got involved in gyros without the PRA, I bought a kit without the help of the PRA, I built the kit without the help of the PRA, and had the gyro tested without the help of the PRA, and I will learn to fly it without the help of the PRA. But, I'm real happy for you at Mentone. Enjoy your pretty, newly paved airport.

The "only" things the PRA has benifited me with is to lead me to local people who also love gyros... and I got a t-shirt... and I really do appreciate Greg Massey an the other members of Chapter 62... dispite the PRA.

"Maybe someday the web site and mag will get this type of attention, that would be something we all get to use."

Gee whiz, do you really think that maybe the rest of the nation could possibly expect such a wonderful thing as a properly lead website and and magazine after you've finished your desire to make Mentone the thing of you dreams? Ypu're too kind.

Wow, I must bow to such generosity Sir.... I do thank you for your most gracious generosity.

Brent ,I do not know you or Greg. I have made some pretty sorry/rude statements here. And although My comments are meant to show my dismay at the situation, I do not want to make accusations of malice conduct. All I ask is thet you look at things from the point of view of us who feel we're being asked to contribute to an organization that makes decisions that bemefit a few and not the whole.

js

jamiebodie

10-22-2004, 12:22 AM

Brent_Brown

10-22-2004, 02:43 AM

"That says it all for me, we the PRA own the airport and will keep putting money into it."

This is my comments not Garys' Sorry if that look like he said that. I was being funny as if the web site or Mag can get some help and not the airport.

I live in Linden , NC and never wanted the PRA to get a airport. I got jumped on when I said that we shoud use that money to help get more pilots.
Now you know I am not in the small group that gets to use our runway. So move out and draw fire.

madmax

10-22-2004, 03:20 AM

Ron!!!!!

If you do call.

Make your long list of questions.
Call one and then call the othere. Ask each the same questions and see if you even get the same answers.

GyroRon

10-22-2004, 03:56 AM

Okay, I will be the fall guy and will call. YOU guys make me a list of what questions need to be addressed and I will try to get them addressed.

donshoebridge

10-22-2004, 04:01 AM

Hey Don, why can't the PRA members vote for the PRA Mentone BOD? Please answer this question.

BECAUSE THEY ARE SEPERATE CORPORATIONS! There... Was that clear enough for you to understand?

donshoebridge

10-22-2004, 04:10 AM

I still Say that the way to insure as best as possible that the airport is in the hands of the PRA and remains there is to have the PRA BOD's (who are all PRA members) as the only BOD's and Govern over both Corporations.

Oh great! So when the grass needs to be mowed, it's possible that board members on the other side of the world would have to be asked if this action would be OK?!?!?! WRONG! The airport is under LOCAL control so that all issues concerning the airport can be dealt with in a timely manner. Seeing how the PRA BOD's go at each other, if the airport was in their exclusive control, nothing would get done at the airport. And I'll bet this is one reason why the airport and the PRA is set up the way it is.

donshoebridge

10-22-2004, 04:14 AM

Wrong. I don't know where you heard that, but United Way only uses 15 cents per dollar for administration, etc. Whirlpool Corporation, whom I work for, donates 50% of all United Way funding in this area, which is pretty remarkable. So I'm privy to the way UW's funds are distributed.

85% wasted, 15% return! They're still not getting my money. I am my own charitable orginization.

Texas Armadillo

10-22-2004, 04:15 AM

Sorry Brent, you didn't use quotes and I didn't know the last coments were yours.
Moving out...

KenSandyEggo

10-22-2004, 08:04 AM

Don, don't you have it backwards? He said 15% goes for administration, not 85%, so how do you get 85% wasted?

KenSandyEggo

10-22-2004, 08:09 AM

Let me see if I got this right. The Mentone board is kept local so things can be done in a timely manner. So the local Mentone Board says out loud, "Hey, can we have 30 grand to repave our airport?" Then everyone gets out of their chairs, walks to the other side of the table, sits down and in one voice says, "Sure." They then get up and sit back on the other side of the table and say, "Thank you."

Well, at least I'll have 40 extra bucks to spend on flying gas every year, barring a miracle here with some honest accountability.

gyroman

10-22-2004, 09:05 AM

OK, Ron, here's a few questions...

PRA Member questions for PRA BOD.

It has been published widely that the PRA owns the Mentone Airport. Some members have disputed this in finding out that PRA does not own the airport, rather that a non profit group name PRA Mentone owns the airport. Please respond to the following questions:

1) Is there a non profit organization named PRA Mentone?
2) Does PRA or PRA Mentone actually own the airport?
3) If PRA Mentone actually owns the airport, why was this second non profit organization created?
4) Who are the Board of Directors of PRA Mentone and how do they get elected?
5) It has been stated publicly, in the Rotorcraft magazine, and on the PRA website that the PRA owns the Mentone airport. What direct relationship exists between PRA and PRA Mentone that proves the PRA owns the airport.
6) What money was put up as collateral or payment for the Mentone airport purchase and by which members?
7) How much money is paid by the PRA for airport mortgage payments/rental/leasing each month?
8) Do PRA members have access to all financial records for the PRA upon request?
9) Do PRA members have access to all financial records for PRA Mentone upon request?
10) Can PRA members get a listing of the by-laws of PRA Mentone upon request?

If anyone has any questions to add then post them and I'll add them to the list. I think it would be a great idea to have an article written up on all of this and published both on the PRA website and in the Rotorcraft magazine answering all the questions so we can move on with growing the PRA. It's really tough to believe it takes an act of congress to get simple information like this out to the PRA membership.

donshoebridge

10-22-2004, 09:22 AM

Ken,

Not all of the PRA board members are on the PRA Mentone board. I don't know what number of PRA board members sit on the PRA Mentone board either. Nor do I have any idea what the voting record of either board has been in the past. But basically, I'd say you have it about right. Now I don't necessarily agree with this structure as it is a conflict of interest (IMHO). But I also don't like the only other alternative that I've heard either, that being that the PRA board should be the same as the PRA Mentone Board. Since the PRA and PRA Mentone Inc. are 2 separate corporations, then to avoid the whole conflict of interest issue, the boards should also be separate. But that's just me.

I admit that I like the idea of a pro-gyro airport, and I'd like to see it continue to grow and improve - i.e., like the new tower, hangar doors, a paved runway, etc. As to who personally owns the airport, I have no idea. Should the PRA pay for those improvements? I guess that's up to the PRA BOD's.

Maxie, I know what you're going to say - Gary is just going to over rule the board anyways, right? If this is true, then this is where the problem is and this whole issue should have been dealt with at the first instance of dictatorial ruling by Gary. Now if absolute control sits with the president of the PRA (as laid out in the by-laws and maybe even corporate law), and not with the BOD's, then there isn't too much you and anyone else can do about it except chase people away from the PRA and not support the PRA, right?

Brent_Brown

10-22-2004, 09:39 AM

Don Shoebridge wrote "Now if absolute control sits with the president of the PRA (as laid out in the by-laws and maybe even corporate law), and not with the BOD's, then there isn't too much you and anyone else can do about it except chase people away from the PRA and not support the PRA, right?"

Yes I guess if the BOD has no input then what are we doing? I say sell it. We don't have anything to do with it but help pay for it. Then maybe more time and money will go in the things we all see and use.

jamiebodie

10-22-2004, 09:50 AM

BECAUSE THEY ARE SEPERATE CORPORATIONS! There... Was that clear enough for you to understand?

If they are separate corps then why is money from the PRA used to pay for the airport? How clear is that?

jb

gyroman

10-22-2004, 10:09 AM

According to the by-laws the President only has absolute control over special meetings. Any business is subject to the advice and control of the Directors.

"B. President
The President shall be the Chief Executive officer of the Corporation and of the Board of Directors. He may call any special meetings of the members of the Board of Directors and shall have, subject to the advice and control of the Directors, general charge of the business of the corporation. He shall execute with the Secretary or Secretary-Treasurer all contracts and instruments which have first been approved by the Board of Directors."

donshoebridge

10-22-2004, 10:11 AM

Yes I guess if the BOD has no input then what are we doing? I say sell it. We don't have anything to do with it but help pay for it. Then maybe more time and money will go in the things we all see and use.

Last I checked, the presidents position is an elected position, just like that of the board members. If you can't get satisfaction through the currently seated board and president, then you vote them out the next go-around. We just had an election this past summer, and most all of the people that this whole issue is about is still in control. Why? If this issue of airport ownership was such a problem, why wasn't it talked about in Rotrcraft magazine prior to this years election? Why did Gary run unopposed? Why weren't all of the board members replaced so that the by-laws could be changed to make the PRA more accountable to it's members?

The PRA has about 4000 members. There are only about 700 people that post on this forum, and not all of them are PRA members. If getting the PRA to change it's ways was a real priority, throwing a fit on the internet about a secondary problem is not going to solve anything. That's why I'm still wondering what is driving all of this bitching.

If you're on the board, then make changes. If you're not on the board, then get elected or contact someone who is. If you don't like the president or his actions, then vote for someone else.

You don't cut off a persons head because they have a broken leg. Just like the PRA and the rotary wing community should not suffer for the actions of a few that are in control. Get the word out, vote for someone else as president. Find new board members. Change the by-laws to state that those sitting on the PRA Mentone BOD can not be on the PRA BOD. Maybe include term limits. Or maybe exclude everyone with a 100 mile radius of Mentone from being elected. Whatever! But if there is anyone to blame it's those that knew there is/was a problem and didn't act to inform people prior to any election. But if you think Gary or anyone else is just going to throw up their hands and say “yep, you caught me”, then you’re only kidding yourself.

Texas Armadillo

10-22-2004, 10:38 AM

Don, it may be that, like myself, not many people understood the way things were set up. By the way, is your Hornet flying?

gyroman

10-22-2004, 10:59 AM

gyroman

10-22-2004, 11:15 AM

According to the by-laws, the President and all other officers are elected by the BOD not the members...

"D. The Directors shall elect the officers who serve a one-year term."

donshoebridge

10-22-2004, 12:41 PM

According to the by-laws, the President and all other officers are elected by the BOD not the members...

"D. The Directors shall elect the officers who serve a one-year term."

Oops! My bad. But even so, that just makes the reasoning for staying on the BOD even stronger - if the President is the problem, vote for someone else.

GyroRon

10-22-2004, 05:29 PM

Toby, thanks for the questions list. If there is any more please add them here. I will try to make some phone calls sometime over the next few days.

donshoebridge

10-22-2004, 06:08 PM

Don, it may be that, like myself, not many people understood the way things were set up. By the way, is your Hornet flying?

Still building when I can find the time and money. :)

madmax

10-22-2004, 06:19 PM

Is it the National Rifle Association that has a one year limit on it's presidency? That might not be a bad idea.

donshoebridge

10-22-2004, 06:30 PM

Maybe the internet is the only way to get the word out. Obviously Jamie, Dan, and Maxie resigning from the board got no notice from anyone. I didn't even know about it or for what reason until they came here and said something. I really think the PRA needs some work on its communication. How hard is it to email everyone in the organization? I get countless spam email from people that somehow get my email yet an organization that I send my email to with a payment can't even send me something saying, "Thanks for signing up".

Setting up a distribution list is not that hard, all you'd have to do is put a blurb in the Rotorcraft magazine and on the website saying if you want PRA announcements through email then email us a response with something in the subject line. You could then setup a rule in your email adding everyone to a distribution list with that subject heading.

If someone wants to get the word out to PRA members, this website is not the place to do it because it's only going to catch a few PRA members by comparison to the total PRA population. Rick Gilley (spelling?), the magazine editor is always looking for something to print in the magazine. All too often, the articles that are printed are overly technical for the casual reader. And I have yet to read anything in Rotorcraft magazine that is as controversial or passionate as this particular topic. I'm sure there would have been interest in the story, had it actually been printed in the magazine. And it for sure would have caused a stir, and may well have applied enough pressure at the top of the PRA to influence a reaction, be it positive or negative. But here again, this is something that could have happened almost 2 years ago when this crap first started, and it would have been done and over with toot-sweet. But no, some people want to keep dragging this garbage on, instead of doing something that may well benefit the rest of the PRA membership, like writing a magazine article to inform the other 3300+ members that don't visit this site. Had this issue been brought out of the closet long ago, it would have changed the faces that sit on the board, and possibly even the president.

But now the $64 question... Can an article be written for Rotorcraft magazine with actual facts and figures about the ownership of the airport, and what degree of control the Popular Rotorcraft Association has over the airport? I don't know. All of the main players are still alive. I'm sure if some "objective" writer could step forward and do a real story for the magazine, we could put this to bed.

donshoebridge

10-22-2004, 06:31 PM

Is it the National Rifle Association that has a one year limit on it's presidency? That might not be a bad idea.

I don't know. I'm more of a GOA kind of guy.

KenSandyEggo

10-22-2004, 08:51 PM

Jeff is SO wrong!! After hunting armadillos with a handful of shiny rocks tumble-polished in his washing machine, he posted:

"You take money from across the nation........"

Actually, they take money from across the "World." There are a lot of international members also who are donating their money to the airport.

Texas Armadillo

10-22-2004, 09:10 PM

Mr. Shoebridge, I believe you mean $64,000.00 question...

"Can an article be written for Rotorcraft magazine with actual facts and figures about the ownership of the airport, and what degree of control the Popular Rotorcraft Association has over the airport?"

"I'm sure if some "objective" writer could step forward and do a real story for the magazine, we could put this to bed."

Yes Sir, I couldn't agree more, I think it could be written. But we don't have those facts, and that is what this discusion is about. And in my humble opininion, such an article would answer a majority of the questions presented here. But, having read the many posts here on this subject, no one can write that article but the president of the PRA or a board member of the PRA who knows those facts. Those are the exact questions that people in this thread are asking.

As far as an article on this subject getting into the magazine? I don't know who decides on the content of the magazine, or if they would print an article the subject.

I hope you get your bird in the air soon Sir. It really looks like a good Gyro when I look at your website, good job!

js

Texas Armadillo

10-22-2004, 09:30 PM

Ken,

"Jeff is SO wrong!! After hunting armadillos with a handful of shiny rocks tumble-polished in his washing machine, he posted:

"You take money from across the nation........"

Actually, they take money from across the "World." There are a lot of international members also who are donating their money to the airport."

Ken, my apologisies Sir, but you are deceived... I don't hunt the little buggers... I am one. We are Repbilicans... heavily armoured, forcefull of will, defenders of justice, oh crap... why lie... I thought the name sounded good. I'll be over her in the corner polishing stones if you need me.

js

madmax

10-23-2004, 03:10 AM

Ron

More questions

1- If a new president is elected to PRA is he also the President of PRA Mentone and Do the Bylaws for PRA Mentone verify that.

2-When the Mentone Airport is paid off, is PRA still required to pay PRA Mentone a rental fee, or any other fees.

donshoebridge

10-23-2004, 05:13 AM

Last I knew, the EAA also has separate corporations set up for the different aspects of the EAA - warbirds, aerobatics, even the museum is a separate corporation. But with regard to who pays for those different groups, obviously the members of the EAA do. Now for someone half way around the world to be paying on the EAA museum, a membership funded asset, how are those non-US members, hell, even non-local members going to use the museum? They're not. It's another EAA expenditure and the membership isn't complaining.

donshoebridge

10-23-2004, 05:27 AM

Yes Sir, I couldn't agree more, I think it could be written. But we don't have those facts, and that is what this discusion is about. And in my humble opininion, such an article would answer a majority of the questions presented here. But, having read the many posts here on this subject, no one can write that article but the president of the PRA or a board member of the PRA who knows those facts. Those are the exact questions that people in this thread are asking.

As long as the same faces are in the drivers seat, I doubt that having the president or any of the BOD members write a magazine article is going to satisfy many of the people of this forum. Regardless of any reasons, facts, paranoia, alcoholic poisoning, UFO sightings, etc., a few people see Gary Goldsberry, Glenn and Pam Bundy, and whoever else as being corrupt, and anything they say will be looked upon as biased. Someone like yourself would be a better candidate for writing the article, simply because you are a new face in the crowd and have not had the time to become “biased”.

As far as an article on this subject getting into the magazine? I don't know who decides on the content of the magazine, or if they would print an article the subject.

Rick Gilley is the magazine editor and he's real open about publishing articles. The better the article, as in quality of, and as few typo's as possible, he'll print articles without any changes made. So the pipe line between the members is open. It's only a matter of filling it with something.

Texas Armadillo

10-23-2004, 07:29 AM

Don writes, "As long as the same faces are in the drivers seat, I doubt that having the president or any of the BOD members write a magazine article is going to satisfy many of the people of this forum."

I can't speak for others on the forum, but it wouldn't matter to me if the president, or charles manson wote the article. If it contained the answers to the questions in the above list, then I would have the information needed to make a decision on whether to continue to support the PRA.

"Someone like yourself would be a better candidate for writing the article, simply because you are a new face in the crowd and have not had the time to become “biased”."

I would be happy to, but all I could write about is this forum, this thread, and the questions. You suggested an article on the facts... I don't have them, which was why I suggested the president or another board member with the facts write it.

I will volunteer to write the article, if asked, containing the points of the discussion, and the facts/answers to the list of questions gyroman and maxie have listed and that gyroron has voluteered to call about. I could then present the article here for anyone to shoot at, add to, remove from, or change the phrasing, before it was sent to the editor. Sometimes my comments come out rougher than I intend... it would have to be edited here first.

movin' out...

gyroplanes

10-23-2004, 09:56 AM

Is it the National Rifle Association that has a one year limit on it's presidency? That might not be a bad idea.

I'm afraid we would be Presidentless. Gary has run unopposed since he assumed the presidency. No one has ever accepted a nomination in spite of Gary's insistence that "This will be his last year as President"

In the mid-seventies we had our convention in Rockford, Illinois at the former EAA convention site. Bensen dealer, Russ Jansen and his wife, Fran, put their heart and soul into providing some of the best conventions that the PRA has ever had.

Some detractors were spreading rumors of financial impropriety as I recall and word got back to Russ & Fran. I was there and saw a look come over Russ that I'll never forget. The man then broke down and cried.

The allegations were false.

We never had a convention at Rockford again in spite of the fact that the community bent over backwards for us and even paved a "gyro runway" just for PRA.

Russ and Fran's enthusiam was gone and they were never the same.

Have you ever been in a situation where you put your heart, soul and money into something for someone else and then were accused of doing it for yourself?

Accusing a volunteer that gives a good portion of their life trying to make your's better is a quick method of losing that volunteer.

Sitting back, across the nation and accusing the PRA of "keeping the board of directors local" gets my jaws tight. We busted our butts trying to appease everyone and offer the fairest, open election of board members the PRA has ever seen and we still got a lackluster response.
Maybe it's time for one of you detractors to take some real action. I am announcing, here and now, that I will gladly give up my seat on the board to any of you that wish to conduct your witch hunt from within the "good old boy " evil cabal.

This whole topic is getting blown way out of proportion.
I've seen it said here that 4 board members quit over this already. I don't recall Dan & Dave quitting over airport issues. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I agree there are some questions that need to be answered, and I'm confident they will be. How will you feel?

scott heger

10-23-2004, 10:19 AM

Comparing the largest airshow/flyin in the world (EAA) to the PRA "convention" is hardly a good comparison. Let’s turn this around a little. If a president and majority of Board members for the PRA were elected from California, and "we" decided that the PRA needed an airport in Southern California, would all you think that was such a good idea? I mean, you all could fly out here on a commercial jet to watch and enjoy the airport. At least the weather is normally better. Many of the members live close enough to trailer their gyros a few thousand miles, so what’s the problem? We would only charge a ridiculous trailer rent for the PRA office, but who would mind, because "we" are taking care of your best interest. You must be blind not to see that!!! Only 2 or 3 per cent of the membership would show up every year to the "convention", but who cares, the rest of you could pay for the airport year round. If you don't like the convention, Disneyland and Universal Studios is close by for the rest of the family to enjoy, and there are 100's of hotels nearby. Then again, the runway needs paving, or we could have the choice of supporting a national CFI safety program and have a better magazine, that’s easy, let’s pave the runway for our few local members, sounds pretty good right?

Tom M., I don't think this has anything to do with a east/west/ turf battle. IT is just a illustration of setting up a single airport (anywhere)for a small worldwide membership that is expected to contribute money, is folly. I know many local PRA members have voluteered many hours to make the PRA work, it is just that the principle of the Mentone airport is so wrong. It is not a reflection on any Board member that put hard work into making(or trying) to make the organization better.

I don't think any airport that benefits so few of us, is very fair. If Gary G. lived in Washington, I would bet there would not be a Mentone airport for PRA. It sure would not be too much work to put the papers up on the PRA website for all members to see. Remember this is a non profit corporation, what's to hide? I am not saying that Gary has not worked hard or anything underhanded has occurred. It just seems if you step back and look at this, the vast majority of PRA members see very little benefit to ANY airport. Let’s dump this thing and hold conventions around the country every year. So some of you are thinking, put your money where your mouth is Scott. OK, I will offer FREE office rent for three years in a building I rent in California for the purpose of conducting the PRA’s business, just pay utilities. How’s that? Can’t do any better than free, right? All I ask is that some of the saved money be used to promote safety in the sport.

Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel, Ca N86SH

Heron

10-23-2004, 10:56 AM

Tom Milton: dont quit please?
Florida is better for a convention than California (it is open the East West war) :D
If the reasons are there to protect something, it can not be writen because it will change the contract and the protection.
If there is foul play it will not be writen, what are you? Dopes?
Blah Blah Blah's apart, lets buy the next airport and do it all over again, this time the right way.
Dan, Maxie and Jamie, get your fat butts (and your half butt) back in the BOD and lets shake the tree . . .you know racoons, they fall easy!
Armadillo, lets have some? WE always get some armadillo stew down here in Florida, about 6 times this year so far.
As I have been saying in the last three years or more . . .PRA sucks big!!! :)
But I still rejoin as soon as the money is available honoring the invitation Tom and Tim made here! Something like puting the money where the mouth is . . .
What if I have a new Rotorclub with some 25 members, should I create a chapter and associate with the PRA? How do I sell that to the new guys?
thanks
Heron
P.S. Ron . . .please ask Mr G.G. when the plebe ignara will have his grace and see a post here?

Brian Jackson

10-23-2004, 11:35 AM

Have you ever been in a situation where you put your heart, soul and money into something for someone else and then were accused of doing it for yourself?

Accusing a volunteer that gives a good portion of their life trying to make your's better is a quick method of losing that volunteer.
Hi Tom. Sorry to butt in as a newbee, but I've intentionally removed myself from this debate until now. It's not about Mr. Goldsberry, whom I would trust my life with... It's about legalities and clauses which can be rather nebulous. Perhaps I'm not fully understanding the debate. From where I sit the PRA is a solid organization that I value greatly.

I'm now speaking up because of the bickering over the PRA web site. I volunteered months ago to help with it and all I've read on this forum about the PRA was negative and derogatory. I'm in a position to help as of today, but we're not doin' this.

I'm almost afraid to ask how you want the PRA site to work, as I don't want to get attacked for siding with this guy or another. My volunteer commitment hasn't changed. When you guys figure out what the PRA is and what you want me to do, I'll be more than happy to help make the PRA site ultra-cool.

Respectfully,
Brian Jackson

madmax

10-23-2004, 01:09 PM

Brian Jackson

10-23-2004, 02:20 PM

Hi Tom. Sorry to butt in as a newbee, but I've intentionally removed myself from this debate until now. It's not about Mr. Goldsberry, whom I would trust my life with... It's about legalities and clauses which can be rather nebulous. Perhaps I'm not fully understanding the debate. From where I sit the PRA is a solid organization that I value greatly.

I'm now speaking up because of the bickering over the PRA web site. I volunteered months ago to help with it and all I've read on this forum about the PRA was negative and derogatory. I'm in a position to help as of today, but we're not doin' this.

I'm almost afraid to ask how you want the PRA site to work, as I don't want to get attacked for siding with this guy or another. My volunteer commitment hasn't changed. When you guys figure out what the PRA is and what you want me to do, I'll be more than happy to help make the PRA site ultra-cool.

Respectfully,
Brian Jackson
Let me paraphrase...
I'm more than willing to help design the PRA site and make it what everyone wants it to be. But I'm afraid to tackle such a large project while everyone is still arguing over dumb ****. Do we want a collective site or not?

madmax

10-23-2004, 05:40 PM

Well then, maybe you could tell us. What part of the Mentone Airport is "Dumb ****"? We can't seem to get any answers out of Indiana.

donshoebridge

10-23-2004, 05:53 PM

We can't seem to get any answers out of Indiana.

That's painting with a broad brush, don't you think?

donshoebridge

10-23-2004, 06:07 PM

Let’s dump this thing and hold conventions around the country every year.

Ah... NO! If only 2-3 percent of the membership attends the Convention now, moving it all of the damn country each year is going to make the number of people attending even smaller. Reason being, and I'm sure there are others of the same feeling, that if I can't drive there in 1 day, I'm not going. The day the PRA starts moving this single convention to different locations each year is the day I quit the PRA! I'm not going to sit around and wait for the circus to come close to my house. I didn't just move to Indiana because it was convenient for my family, which it wasn't. I wanted to move here because of the convention. Now I'm all for having multiple conventions each year, but moving one convention around the US, like it was the Olympics or the Super Bowl is nuts!

madmax

10-23-2004, 07:43 PM

Don!!!!!

You must be new.

The convention was always held in deferent places when I join and long before. That is how it was set up, to bring the Gyros to deferent communities. That was part of the fun, always somewhere new or at least a year or two between and new faces at each convention. Because your right, everyone can't always make it. The Airport was purchased as a place to have the convention in the event that there was no other place to hold it or if something feel through at the planed convention location, a backup location if you will. It was not purchased to hold the convention there every year. If ANYONE says deferent, you can tell them I said they need to read their history.

That was brought up at the 2003 Board meeting, the Board voted to hold all of the future conventions at the Mentone Airport. It was put on the floor, seconded and voted on, and passed in about one minute or less Dan and I were the only ones to vote against it. I then reminded everyone why the airport was purchased and the promises they had made the membership to get their approval to purchase the airport. Then I made a motion to resended (is that right) the prior vote, Dan Leslie seconded it, the earlier vote was resended and the convention was open for the chapters to sponsor any where they chose, as it should be and if not , we have Mentone as planed. If you don't believe me ask Ernie. Even Chuck want challenge that.

Speaking of Chuck, he hasn't been here to insult me in a while, I hope he is OK?

I don't know what happened in the 2004 Board meeting, but the convention was never meant to always be at Mentone. That's is why it was held in TX. in 2002 and also why the Indiana crowd fought it so hard, with all of their accusations and restrictions and planning, to make it as bad as they could so everyone would be willing to have it back at Mentone forever.

All of this is why I can't see why there is (apparently) nothing to show that PRA owns the Airport or PRA Mentone (who owns the Airport).

All that silence!!!!!!! Can you hear it?

madmax

10-23-2004, 07:56 PM

ROTOPIX

If you are a Web guy and really know your stuff. Please call and volunteer, Lord knows we need some help in that area.

GyroRon

10-23-2004, 07:57 PM

Don I like the idea of having multiple conventions - I think we pretty much already have this via Bensen Days, ROC, EL Mirage, etc...

But

I DON'T think it is unfair or wrong to hold our convention in a new location each year though. It is easy for YOU to go to the convention as it is and where it is, but it is nearly impossible in practical terms for someone like Scott to attend, especially with gyroplane in tow. Moving it around would not lower attendance IMHO because if it were in a new region, I believe that it would draw those close enough to attend that may have not gone to Mentone cause of the distance factor. The Texas convention sounds like that should have been a really good one. But from what I have been told, pretty much all the folks in the Mentone area just stayed home and had a fly in there anyway. In other words.... We want the guys from Texas to travel 2+ days on the highways to come to Mentone if they want to go to the convention, but we will just stay here and have our own convention when the official convention is down your way..... or is there more to that story than I was lead to believe?

But to be fair

I don't have a problem with having the convention and the home of the PRA based in one place. EAA has this with Oshkosh and it you want to go to their convention, even if you live in Southern California, you are simply going to have to make a longer flight or longer drive than the folks who live closer. Tough luck as they say...

I think the best idea is to leave the " Big " convention as it is and where it is. Then split the country up into regions and hold annual regional fly ins, just like the EAA does.

gyroplanes

10-23-2004, 08:02 PM

Quote from TOM

I'm afraid we would be Presidentless. Gary has run unopposed since he assumed the presidency. No one has ever accepted a nomination in spite of Gary's insistence that "This will be his last year as President"

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Tom I'm afraid you really need to start paying attention at the Board meetings. Gary was opposed in 2002 and 2003 and maybe 2000 and 2001 I just can't recall. But you really need to get your facts straight before you say things like that it makes you look bad.

Also- you've been on the Board for a long time. Where were you when we were trying to get this straight so it wouldn't get this bad. Also as bad as it is, we still hear nothing from our administration.

Wonder why that is????

Who ran against Gary? Please refresh my memory.
I'm guessing it was you and that's why you remember.

For the unfamiliar, PRA board of Director's meetings are held at the convention and Bensen Days and usually last 4-5 hours and cover quite a few topics. We held them in tents, FBOs, control towers, motorhomes and even the Beech Staggerwing Museum. Each board member must attend one a year, minimum.

I recall you asking for paperwork regarding Mentone airport.
We all (Bod members) received a large packet of paperwork from the PRA attorney and accountants regarding the airport purchase.

I thought you had what you wanted until I heard about the BOD meeting at Bensen Days. I know what you want to see now, a paper that says the two corps are actually one. This appears to be against the advice of our hired attorney and accountant.
I asked you guys to come up with a document that will insure ownership without the liability and if our hired people agree it best protects our assets, I'm all for it.

I understand that some folks here think the PRA officers are "stonewalling" because they aren't responding to your questions on this conference. Please remember that many people still don't use computers.

Scott,

You came into sport rotorcraft too late. The PRA used to be headquartered in So Cal.

Remember you're talking to a guy that has packed up his gyro and driven to conventions all over this country.

If your chapter want's to host a convention I'll come out there for a board meeting too. The PRA officers and board would love to have the convention somewhere other than Mentone... I promise you this.

Would I like to see some kind of "teleconference" board meeting? You bet.
I had to drive 1 hour to Midway airport, fly to Dallas, rent a car to drive to Waxahatchee, TX. attend a board meeting, drive back to Dallas, fly back to Chicago, etc.
If it were not for my daughter's high school graduation that weekend I'd a been there for the duration of the convention.

Mentone airport is not in my or Gary's back yard. I still have never flown anything into or out of Mentone airport, but I have had the fun of building a deck around OUR world headquarters, mowing the grass, digging in water lines, running electricity and helping Art Evans bury drainage tile.

I darn proud that the PRA owns an airport. I used to be embarrassed to tell our newbie members that they had to send their dues to PRA c/o Charlet Funeral Home in Clinton, LA.

Brian,

I don't think there is any controversy over the web site. I think it's the one thing we agree on. It sucks since Jamie left.

Heron,
Send in your money now :)

jamiebodie

10-23-2004, 09:32 PM

Ah... NO! If only 2-3 percent of the membership attends the Convention now, moving it all of the damn country each year is going to make the number of people attending even smaller. Reason being, and I'm sure there are others of the same feeling, that if I can't drive there in 1 day, I'm not going. The day the PRA starts moving this single convention to different locations each year is the day I quit the PRA! I'm not going to sit around and wait for the circus to come close to my house. I didn't just move to Indiana because it was convenient for my family, which it wasn't. I wanted to move here because of the convention. Now I'm all for having multiple conventions each year, but moving one convention around the US, like it was the Olympics or the Super Bowl is nuts!

Excuse me for saying so but that seems a little selfish Don. However, you get honesty points.

Jamie

scott heger

10-23-2004, 09:50 PM

Tom, I don't want to imply in any way that I am busting your balls on this, or the amount of time and energy towards the sport you have shown. I have only attended one Mentone convention, and don't have near ther depth of experience(or commitment)as some members. But why should it be so difficult for x-board members to be able to find answers to reasonable questions. The longer these things go unanswered , the more it looks like there is something to hide.
\
My tongue and cheek statement in my above post was to show that having a airport in-the middle-of nowhere for a national geographically scattered membership is useless to most of us members. If we can get 30-40 gyros every year to El Mirage (which is also in the middle of nowhere), with zero services for many miles around,and not much to offer for fun except watching the lizards hump. Think of how many more guys would come if they could fly off a real asphalt runway. Many pilots out here don't like flying in the dirt, because it tends to tear the equipment up. However making a regional event "the nationally reconized convention" that moves around so that every few years it is closer than 2000 miles of driving each way. I think you could get alot more members involved on a regional basis by making a local presence. How many of the Board members regularly(or ever) attend west coast gyro events, as a example? Ever had a Board meeting west of Texas in the last 15 years? ....the silence says it all.

One thing I was not kidding about before was to get out of the trailer at Mentone if the Airport should go away. My offer still stands, free office space for 3 years for the PRA. Welcome back to Southern California, just get a van , pack the stuff up, and come on out. No strings, except that some of the money currenty spent on rent be used for safety programs; that's it period. You can move in on Monday. And no, I am not in the funeral home business, so don't worry about the formaldehyde fumes. Hows that?

Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel, Ca N86SH

madmax

10-24-2004, 02:52 AM

Tom

Your right It was me that ran against Gary. So since someone else ran he didn't have to if he really didn't want to.

Also if you really think that the board will be happy to have the convention somewhere else, just bring it up and watch the happiness go away.

And Jamie didn't just leave the website. He was trying to make it what it need to be and Glenn said he could do it better and cheaper and the Board went with Glenn. He did get the cheaper part right.

Jerseywing

10-24-2004, 04:41 AM

They have plenty of venues in Atlantic City NJ. We can have a fly in and set up a boxing ring at Trumps Place and kill 2 birds with one stone. The last one standing gets the answers. Maybe Michael Buffer will announce for us. And Now the PRA vs The PRA MeennnTonnnnnnne. Just a little levity guys

Mike

PS I never got a tee shirt when I joined...

madmax

10-24-2004, 07:34 AM

Quote from Tom:

I know what you want to see now, a paper that says the two corps are actually one.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Tom

As you should very well know by now. All I want to see is the BOD's acting in accordance with what they have promised to it's members and invested our monies in. So far no papers that we have been given show that. I don't care if we have One Corporation or ten, as long as the members remain in control of each of them, as the BOD's assured them when it was purchased.

We were told when I was elected to the Board that some where around $40,000.00, of PRA money had been (misplaced). The Board refused to pursue it's loss. Sorry, but I don't think we will survive an other loss like that. Can't you see how nice it would be to have that nest egg now? I strongly feel we need a legal assurance that this investment can't be misplaced also. I hate to see that you and others don't agree.

jamiebodie

10-24-2004, 08:29 AM

I don't think there is any controversy over the web site. I think it's the one thing we agree on. It sucks since Jamie left.

Just a quick note because people get confused easily, I didn't leave I was asked, more or less, to step down as webmaster. I didn't really care because it was more of a pain than it was worth. Actually to tell the entire story I had just spent several days researching the cost of web hosting, Norm's hosting was going away, and presented a web hosting plan to the BOD and Glenn said he had cheaper hosting and someone who would maintain the website for something like $15/year. Most of the BOD members thought it was a great idea and I offered to step down. My offer was accepted and here we are......... pretty much without a website.

KenSandyEggo

10-24-2004, 09:31 AM

Ummmmmm.....40 thousand dollars was misplaced and no one knows where it went? Could someone expound on this teensy, insignificant matter a little? :cool:

Texas Armadillo

10-24-2004, 10:06 AM

Amazing how these little jewels of information keep trickling out here. Misplaced 40 grand? If proper records are being kept, it shouldn't have taken much effort at all to see where the error was. Is this the kind of management PRA Mentone is under? I manage a small 15 million dollar a year distributership, and If I reported a 40 grand misplacement, there would be a team of accountants in my books the next day. I anxiously await the answers to the questions of whether or not the PRA and PRA Mentones financial statements are open to public review. There may not be any deliberate misconduct, but there have been numbers given for rent, banking fees, office expense's, that could use some further explanation. I wonder if the publishing fees for the mag have been shopped around to see if there may be a better way to go. I'm just rambling here, while waiting for the question list to be answered... but I felt the 40 grand comment needed at least two responses... (grin)

Movin' out...

madmax

10-24-2004, 10:25 AM

I don't really know much more about it. I know it happened and no one wanted to pursue it, which surprised me, but Gary said no and I was new at the time and didn't speak up much then. I've changed thou, does it show? Any way Tom has been around a lot longer than me and I'm sure he knows the whole story as do others. Maybe they will share it with us. I just know another hit like that, and losing the airport with the money we have in it would be a much larger hit, would be hard if not impossible to overcome with the economy like it is. This is why even thou these are friends, we must be legally secure in our ownership of our assets and I would think our BOD's would want that too. I'm sure it was not a stranger that misplaced our funds before.

As I've said in the past:

Your only screwed by your friends and family. They are the only ones you let get close enough to you to do it. Not that they will, but.

Brian Jackson

10-24-2004, 05:14 PM

Well then, maybe you could tell us. What part of the Mentone Airport is "Dumb ****"? We can't seem to get any answers out of Indiana.
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply the Mentone thing as "dumb ****". I was referring to the bickering. I am more than willing to contribute my time and talents to the PRA site. In fact I met Mr. Bundy at Mentone '04 and he set me up with admin-access to pra.org which I've been looking at since. I have already volunteered my efforts as a service to the PRA. What I won't do is take sides or join debate.

If/when I start this project I'd like to get constant constructive criticism from you all. Many seem to dislike the current site and have ideas to make it better. That's what I'll need. Don't just bitch unless you have a suggestion for an improvement.

No website can be the embodiment of all needs and suggestions, but if you're willing to let me try, I'll do my best to design PRA.org to be what you want it to be. It's a clean canvas, but don't ignore the great info that's currently there. In fact there's a great page there now that lists gyro manufacturers, with a nice synopsis of each. Very cool.

With highest respect,
Brian Jackson

Brent_Brown

10-24-2004, 05:15 PM

I think the airport is a loss now and see how well we are doing. 40,000 an airport whats
the diff.

Brian Jackson

10-24-2004, 05:34 PM

Footnote: If I assume this responsibility it's going to be taken very seriously... people's lives may depend on it. Thus I would ask that you not email me about things not yet researched. Mr. Bundy will be my direct superior, as will the entire BOD of PRA. I'm merely volunteering my abilities to help out.

I can start tomorrow. I know MS FrontPage sucks, so I invested into MacroMedia which is a fantastic HTML progam. Much cleaner code, and can use CSS style sheets for the site.

Brian Jackson

gyroplanes

10-24-2004, 10:09 PM

Jamie,
I apologize. I didn't choose my wording carefully enough. I know you didn't walk away from the web site. I almost wrote "fired", but that surely would have been an even poorer choice of words. It also might imply that you weren't doing your job, which wasn't the case.

Missing money.... PRA had a treasurer many years ago, when we were headquartered in Louisiana, that left the position rather abruptly. If I recall correctly the incoming treasurer (Roger Wood?) had a difficult time getting the records from him and had to reconstruct much of the finances from bits and pieces.

If I remember correctly, at the time PRA was pretty flush. We had come a long way from the California days when we had to hold up the printing of the magazine until we had enough cash to pay for it. NOTICE I'm not Cali bashing, not at all, I think Ken Brock was an intelligent, dedicated gyro lover who gave as much spare time as he could to PRA. (Oh, and the board of directors members from Illinois, Penn, Ohio, etc. did drive to California when the convention was there)

Every president since Ken seems to have been able to devote more time to the PRA, hence it's growth and financial sucess.
Back to the story. PRA had money in certificates of deposit and no financial worries. Shortly after the treasurers departure, overdue, unpaid bills started rolling in and things weren't balancing out. The former treasurer, I was told, failed to provide any additional information.

Due to missing paperwork, sloppy (or clever) accounting and a lack of information, an exact amount will never be known. There are those that say we never had as much money as we thought and he did not abscond with any of the PRAs cash. There are some that say he probably "loaned" some of PRA's cash to his own flagging business and when he couldn't put it back he clouded things up. I do recall Gary, after his election to Presidency going as far as involving the IRS and having lawyers write threatening letters. I also remember bringing a master of financial sleuthing to attempt to get bank records. We were advised that we didn't have enough evidence to warrant spending further PRA funds to pursue the matter.

Brian,
I think we can all agree that we need a web site rebuild pronto. I and many others here will put down our differences and help this cause... we can all get along.

I want to clear this mess up as badly as Jamie and Maxie do. I want to get on with my job of growing and empowering our chapters.

I must admit, I did at one time, question Jamie & Maxie's motives. I was "tipped" by a trusted gentleman "way down south" , and others, that Jamie, Maxie, David and Dan wanted to get on the board together and move the PRA down south AFTER selling off the Mentone airport.

It looked like this conspiracy plan was coming together as described. I decided to run for a director's seat again to keep an eye out for trickery. I was not sucessful in my bid for election. Ironically, it was Jamie and Maxie that reportedly got me back on the board after a member failed to meet his committment to attend meetings.

I'm not opposed to the PRA uprooting HQ and moving somewhere else, I'm really not. At the time I just wanted to make sure that PRA didn't go back to being "a junk computer and a filing cabinet in a back room somewhere". I fought too hard to establish an existance we could be proud of to see it slip back.

The assumption that the PRA consists of a "trailer" and couple of junk computers on someone else's airport is way off.

We own and operate an airport, we rent hangar space, sell fuel, lease our farm fields, rent an modular home style office to PRA with almost state-of-the-art computers (we all know that computers age quicker than new cars and become obsolete in weeks), have a decent museum, indoor showers and flush toilets, a "control" tower, a concession stand and dining area. camping with hookups and much more and it was all built by and is very nicely maintained by volunteers. Working for you. I'd be proud of "Mentone" where ever it was.

I quote Ken Brock here, "If the PRA had it's annual convention on the moon, we'd still see the same faces there" Ken was all in favor of the Mentone purchase. I would back a PRA airport anywhere in the USA, and lord willing, I'd be at every convention there too. Mentone was bought because the price was a steal (my purchase offer still stands) it is in the MIDDLE of the USA (almost) and most important it is reasonably close to Oshkosh.

When the airport was purchased most of the gyroplane and helicopter manufacturers exhibited at the conventions, even Jim Vanek, bless his heart, brought his sport copter wagon train from the northwest corner of this great union. Vendors came from Florida, Texas, California, Oregon, Canada just to name a few. Most of these vendors went on to Oshkosh. Anyone who thinks Mentone was a local fly-in for local guys is way off base.

We almost held our convention at Oshkosh. We were offered space on Wittman field prior to the EAA convention. This might have worked out very well. What happened? It takes tons of manpower to put on a convention ANYWHERE. Clubs have self destructed over the workload and manpower requirements involved. There are but a few gyro people in and around Oshkosh....... Who would do the work?

Maxie If it were not for the financial risk of having the convention anywhere else I PROMISE you that Gary and everyone else would love to have the convention anywhere else..... they could attend, instead of work, and have a good time, just like we all did in Texas (sorry to disappoint you but we didn't stay home and do everything we could to destroy the Texas convention... quite the contrary, we went there) any notion of a counter convention at Mentone was just pure baloney. I asked Larry Neal, chair of the Texas convention, just the other day how he felt about all of this talk. I wanted his side of the story. He had nothing bad to say about PRA.

FYI Since we bought Mentone airport we have always had Memorial and Labor day "fly-ins" which were actually cleverly disguised work party weekends. I recall very few, maybe 1 or 2 gyros ever flying or attending. Just a bunch of volunteers turning the runway and T-hangars we bought into the facility I described above.

Remember what I said in a previous post about putting your heart and sould and money into something for someone else and then having them accuse you of doing it for your own good?

I never saw a man as dirty as our current president, Gary Goldsberry as when he crawled out from under the modular office. Gary was muddied from head-to-toe from hooking up the water and sewer lines. Dick Wunderlich, one of the finest men to ever walk the earth, was perspiring like no one I've ever seen, digging holes to set the corners for our office deck. Art Evans could have more profitably spent his time at Dixie Chopper mowers, but instead tackled the job of water, sewer, drainage and electric. I could go on forever about all of the volunteer manhours I've seen, wives scrubbing toilets and showers, Glenn Bundy and his wife Pam constantly in motion and constantly working for you. I can't begin to name all of the dozens of volunteers and their thankless labors.

Don't insult these people any further with accusations. Don't insult Greg Gremminger who fights for our flying freedom every day. Greg is PRA, I am PRA, you are PRA.

Listen to the silence?

Don't sit here and whine. Pick up your PRA magazine, get Gary's phone number, call Gary Goldsberry and ask him to answer your questions. Asking Gary questions on a computer is like trying to call an Amish farmer on the phone. Even if he had one he'd probably be too busy to use it.

Mike Hook

10-25-2004, 01:46 AM

Brian

I think it is great your offering your time and to the web page, having a attractice web page FULL of information is what we need to attract more members.

I have followed this thread closely as well as all the others in the past on theses issues. I hope that they will soon all be resolved. When they are I believe that the PRA will become a stronger group and grow. I know that there will always be a confilict on one issue or another that is just human nature but if everyone is open and works together I believe we can move on.

Mike

Brian Jackson

10-25-2004, 04:31 AM

madmax

10-25-2004, 06:15 AM

from Tom
"I must admit, I did at one time, question Jamie & Maxie's motives. I was "tipped" by a trusted gentleman "way down south" , and others, that Jamie, Maxie, David and Dan wanted to get on the board together and move the PRA down south AFTER selling off the Mentone airport."

my response:
Sounds to me like you still question our motive. Your reason sounds like something Chuck has been saying. I wonder why that started? Maybe it's because we don't have the right to sell it and no one is suppose to find that out. And you know the funny thing is, no one every asked me about anything, they and you just started acting like we don't exist, our questions mean nothing, and our concerns are meaningless, you know, like now. If there was a conspiracy ,it was to get us off the Board because we expected the Board to be above reproach follow the Bylaws, and follow through with what they had promised the PRA members. Which your right, Jamie and I had to make them follow the Bylaws at almost every turn, Which did put you back on the Board.

From Tom
"Maxie If it were not for the financial risk of having the convention anywhere else I PROMISE you that Gary and everyone else would love to have the convention anywhere else..... they could attend, instead of work, and have a good time, just like we all did in Texas"

my response:
Like I said, just ask and watch the happiness go away. There will always be a reason,always.

From Tom
"(sorry to disappoint you but we didn't stay home and do everything we could to destroy the Texas convention... quite the contrary, we went there) any notion of a counter convention at Mentone was just pure baloney. I asked Larry Neal, chair of the Texas convention, just the other day how he felt about all of this talk. I wanted his side of the story. He had nothing bad to say about PRA."

my response:
First off, you as a Board member will go where the convention is. That is what you promise when you accept the position.
Second--Larry Neal is a great man. He was accused of all kinds of things, personal and ethical, before, during and after the convention. I've known Larry for many years and I have never heard him say anything bad about anybody and I suspect I never will. However if you will check your PRA mag. and look up Larry's PRA chapter,you know the one that put on the TX. convention. You will notice it is no longer listed because it no longer exist. You see after the convention the TX. club sent in their Charter and are no longer associated with the PRA. This is a direct result of their treatment from the PRA administration for entertaining the thought that they could put on a convention. So you see he has no need to say anything. His actions speak for him as does his club members.
So there is a members list for you. Heal that wound if you dare and get them back!!!!!! Also if you look at the date of your fly-in in 2002. You will see that it was held on the same week that the convention would have been held on and very well publicized. Giving an alternative to driving to TX. as the TX. fly-in was held a few weeks earlier than normal. I didn't know Memorial Day and Labor Day was moved that year.

From Tom
"I never saw a man as dirty as our current president, Gary Goldsberry as when he crawled out from under the modular office. Gary was muddied from head-to-toe from hooking up the water and sewer lines. Dick Wunderlich, one of the finest men to ever walk the earth, was perspiring like no one I've ever seen, digging holes to set the corners for our office deck. Art Evans could have more profitably spent his time at Dixie Chopper mowers, but instead tackled the job of water, sewer, drainage and electric. I could go on forever about all of the volunteer manhours I've seen, wives scrubbing toilets and showers, Glenn Bundy and his wife Pam constantly in motion and constantly working for you. I can't begin to name all of the dozens of volunteers and their thankless labors.

Don't insult these people any further with accusations. Don't insult Greg Gremminger who fights for our flying freedom every day. Greg is PRA, I am PRA, you are PRA."

my response:
These are all good people. No one has ever said the weren't. I fail to see why you consider asking for proof of ownership is a insult to their efforts, your just blowing smoke and trying to change the focus of mine and Jamie's request. If it is an insult to their efforts then it is also an insult to anyone that has ever helped put on a fly-in, including Chapter 13 of which Jamie and I are member and I can assure you that no one in my chapter feels insulted by our request, they would just like to see the paper too.

from Tom
"Listen to the silence?

Don't sit here and whine. Pick up your PRA magazine, get Gary's phone number, call Gary Goldsberry and ask him to answer your questions. Asking Gary questions on a computer is like trying to call an Amish farmer on the phone. Even if he had one he'd probably be too busy to use it."

my response:
See there you go with that whining insult again, that really seems to be a favorite. Seems like everyone that does not want the answer known uses it. Anyway. Have you forgotten that I asked Gary in person, by e-mail,thru other members, and at board meetings. I'm surprised that you expect me to get an answer over the phone. If I remember correctly you will not call him because he is to busy. However, my answer can not be given over the phone. I've asked to see the Legal document that shows the PRA owns the Mentone Airport. That can not be given in a conversation over the phone. MJ said that her Accountant agrees the papers show that we own the Airport but has yet to show that Legal document he used to make that determination. I just fail to see why it is so hard to produce a paper that everyone says exist.
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