My Plans for my Single Place

[CLS447]

I thought I would start a new thread.

In the early spring , I plan to bring my single place back to the garage for it's annual & to add the extended range fuel tanks. While I am at it , I could do a hang test with the tanks on it.

If I can afford it , I would also like to add a set of strobe / nav lights. Since I have no battery or charging system , the nav LEDs will be powered by a rechargeable battery pack.

I have a single strobe on it now.....having two more will give me better piece of mind as far as visibility goes. The NAV lights will give me the extra 1/2 hr flying time.

What else would YOU do to this machine ?

[GyroRon]

Centerline thrust.

And you can add a key west regulator that will power the lights and much more for around 60$ and shouldn't take more than a few hours to install

[CLS447]

CLT.....fair enough, Ron. I have the kit, I am just not sure of the benefits I wil see.
Not sure that I want to "rebuild" the machine right now.

I would love to hear from someone who has flown many hrs both ways.

Mode C veil......not sure I want to use the "charging" system for this reason.

[WHY]

Chris

I think you can get your answer about the centerline thrust on that model from Greg Greminger, I think he designed the first "High Command" model

Tony

[Timchick]

Shawn Adams would be the one to ask about a comparison between low rider and CLT mod. He flew his a lot before he converted his.

[gyro]

I would leave it alone. I flew a stock 582 commander for 7 years and a CLT W/extended tail for 2 years. I missed the agility of the stock AC and the way it seemed to have a good back stick pressure when doing agressive manuvers. the CLT seemed a little light on the controls.

You have the experience with the stock AC and I would assume that you have built a flying relationship to how it handles....why change? unless you are going to sell?? and then you will have all the pro CLT chaps knawing at you for trying to unload an unsafe gyro!

[GyroRon]

CLT.....fair enough, Ron. I have the kit, I am just not sure of the benefits I wil see.
Not sure that I want to "rebuild" the machine right now.

I would love to hear from someone who has flown many hrs both ways.

Mode C veil......not sure I want to use the "charging" system for this reason.

Chris, the benifits that matter most are as follows...

1. By not flying a HTL machine and instead a CLT machine, your setting a more positive example for others to follow. Because when people, especially newbies, see a guy such as yourself flying the low stance machines, it gives them the excuse to do the same thing. Your experienced and can probably handle it, but the next guy might not be able to handle it.

2. It's simply Safer. Your present set up can PPO, the CLT machine can't. It's kind of like buying a ultralight airplane such as a Quicksilver and trying to decide should you spend the extra 2 grand on a BRS parachute.... The plane if properly built and looked after, and properly flown should never fail and there should be no reason to spend the money or time to bother with a parachute, but for 2 grand, isn't the peace of mind worth it, knowing if by some crazy chance something does go wrong you have that parachute to bring you gently back to earth?



As for the Mode C thing.... Well a couple things. When I built my White Dominator single place and went to the FSDO to ask about airworthiness inspections and transponders and so on, They asked me about the gyros electrical system. I told them there was a battery and a charger, but the battery was small and the charging output was limited. They asked, " Does the engine have electric start? " I said no. They replied that if no electric start, then no need for a transponder. Also if you install a Key West you can have 12 volts with no battery. Therefore in my eyes, you would not have a full electrical system since you have no battery. I would think you would have a good case for not needing a transponder.

[Vance]

Hello Chris,

I like having a transponder.

It is nice that the tower can see me and warn other aircraft about my location.

When people fly without a transponder near a towered airport everyone else has to be on the lookout because the tower is not sure of the altitude.

It makes me nervous when they tower says, “Experimental gyroplane 142 Mike Golf, unidentified aircraft at your twelve o’clock at unknown altitude.”

Thank you, Vance

[perbgyro]

What else would YOU do to this machine ?

I agree with Ron on the regulator. I've got a small battery so my EIS powers up before I start the engine. The lightning coils should provide plenty of power for the Nav lights. I assume it's a 503, which means 170 watts at 6000rpm.

I'm a newbie and if you were selling it, I'd pass it up, but if you're flying it and comfortable, I wouldn't touch it. I made a "few" changes to a used CLT and it took a lot of work to get everything to fit. Of course, if you've got a well equiped shop, that will cut the time down. I wish I'd had a hydraulic sheer and full sized belt/disk table sander. Just flipping the engine would probably change the prerotator cable length, etc. With the number of changes, I'd start with a CLT frame and move the other parts over.

Consider a 10gal seat tank as the extended tanks will need a transfer pump and fuel line routing. It's more comfortable and doesn't compress when you sit in it. I did both, so I've got 16gal capacity on board :D

[CLS447]

OK guys, thanks for the responses !

First off, I probably will not be reconfiguring the airframe for CLT. I have been flying this same machine for 20+ years , & I am comfortable with it.

If I could test fly a 503 powered CLT machine just like it, I could really decide if that is what I wanted to do. My 2 place is CLT, but that is a different animal, altogether.

I am not trying to set a bad example & I do recommend CLT to everyone.

AS for the transponder......What is the most affordable one ? My 2 place will need one for sure.

The strobes will be powered by the engine but the LED Nav lights would be powered by a rechargeable battery pack. The Key West Reg/Rec without a battery might be a better way. Is there a minimum load required ?

Perbgyro.....who's 10 gallon tank ? Do you have any pics of the seat installation.
Bottom & back ?

I use a squeeze bulb. I will be replacing mine in the spring. Any recommendations on where to get a REALLY good one ?

As for the extended range tanks......I did not plan on using a transfer pump. I had them on years ago & used the AC plumbing diagram with a 3 way valve. It worked fine.

[StanFoster]

Chris- I loved my Air Command . I would leave it as is if it were mine. If I ever get another gyro....it will more than likely be an Air Command like you have.

Stan

[CLS447]

Stan, you'll be too busy flying the HELICYCLE !!! Where is that T-62 ??????

I can't wait anymore !

[StanFoster]

Chris- The hardest part of this build is feeling the impatience of everyone wanting my turbine to arrive! The turbine is supposed to be here in January.

I will have it ready to fly before Bensen Days.

Stay

[barnstorm2]

Chris,

I have to agree with Ron and the others.

The 447/503 AC's with an HStab on the tail are marginally ok thanks to the low power and HStab but once you go putting on a set of extended tanks below the thrustline then you are just asking for trouble IMHO.

Remember that one of the things that are so sinister about the stablity/HTL flaw is that the offset gimble rotorhead provides the feeling of stablity so you THINK the machine is docile, until it is too late.

When people make statements like "I flew a commander for X hours and it was always stable" that is just fine, but of no practicle use unless they also say " I performed Greg Gremmingers or Chuck Beaty's stability test and never flew past the stability correction ablities of my gyro".

If PPOs always gave clear notice we would not have lost so many high time pilots and CFI to them.

Personally, I do not enjoy working on gyros (unless I am bolting on some bling..) so I would also be loath to do the work required for CLT conversion.

What I might do, were I in your place and wanting the extra tanks, would be to modify the tail with a more powerful HStab and extended keel.

You would still be HTL but you would have the added protection of stablization through a nice big HStab on a long moment arm. Not as good as CLT but better than just bolting on a few more inches of offset IMHO.

Transponders:

I just installed 2 transponders on experimental aircraft as my airport is on the edge of a Mode C veil and I was getting tired of calling in every time I few southwest.

You will need:

Antenna $20 ebay (same ant was $50 from local shop)
Older model used Transponder ($350-$600)
Altitude encoder used ($150)
Encoder to Transponder cable. This is the tricky bit. The local shops (I checked several) wanted about $400 for a set of 2 coax and T-E cables. That works out to $200 per aircraft for cables.

You can make your own, and I can send you my MOLEX crimper, BUT the cable end pieces (connectors) and pins are expensive and hard to find. Don't forget to get a tray and make sure the tray is not bent where the connector sits.

Lastly, you have to have the installation checked and signed off by a service center. I have one of these on airport and they charged me $125 for the Gyro and $90 for the SkyBoy. Initial install checks are more expensive then the 2-year checks ($75).

Be sure to tell them it is a VFR transponder test. The IFR transponder checks are 2 or 3 times more expensive.

It is also a good idea to ask the local radio shop if they have any used equipment to sell you. Let them know you have an experimental. They can be as cheap as eBay and if it does not work you won't get charged for the failed check.

.

[cgmg]

Chris,

I bought both my squeeze bulbs through CPS, and didn't have an issue with either one.

The important thing to do is to remove the check valve. I would just squeeze the fuel line upstream of the bulb as I squeezed it, then released it. The bulbs with cheap check valves are probably what got people in trouble.

I also used a Key West regulator, and don't believe it required any minimum load. But, it was used to charge a battery, as I wanted backup power for my EIS if the charging system quit.

[Vance]

Hello Chris,

I did the same thing as Tim, but I spent a little more money.

I purchased a second hand transponder and encoder and paid the higher price for the antenna and then broke it off once. I needed a ground plane for the antenna because I installed it in the fiberglass pod and ended up making a large, about three inch diameter, washer for a ground plane. This made the threads on the antenna very hard to start and fragile.

Turning the transponder on is a two step process. I turn it to standby after I energize my alternator and then turn it to mode C after the magneto check.

Shutting the engine off with the alternator energized can create a spike that can damage both the radio and transponder so I turn off the transponder as soon as I land and turn off the radio before I turn off the alternator. I double check that things are off before I shut down the engine.


I recently had the biennial inspection on the transponder and it was $125.

I like having a transponder even in Class D airspace because ATC has a much better idea of just where I am. They sometimes ask me to ident and it is nice to be able to do that. About a week ago there was a Super Cub at my six o’clock through the Avila Pass and because we were both transponder equipped it allowed ATC to warn him of my presence and altitude which was only 200 lower than his. It was gusty so in my opinion this was not sufficient separation.

The transponder also allows me to use flight following and it makes flying in class C airspace much easier.

It is one more item on the preflight check list because if you are transponder equipped it must be on when you are flying.

Thank you, Vance

[Timchick]

I had a squeeze bulb on my gyro and when I was replacing the fuel line I found my squeeze bulb flow was restricted. I removed it and used the plunger primer instead. I'll never use a squeeze bulb again.

[CLS447]

I never replaced the lower fuel assembly when I installed the new engine.

The squeeze bulb is getting hard. I will replace it & the filter & the lower fuel lines in the Spring.

I would love a tranponder but don't have the money to waste. So I will try to avoid it by not using the charging system. The whole thing sounds expensive !

How many of you guys are using transponders on your ELSAs ?

How many of your ELSAs have Nav lights ? I like to use the last 1/2 hr of daylight legally.

I want to be legal. They say" ignorance is no excuse of the law." Then it should be their responsibility to explain the law without having to interpret it !(charging system)

A Rotax either has one or it doesn't ! Let's cut the crap !

PS......Who else wants to buy a transponder for their single place gyro ? C'mon, don't be shy, let's all put our hands up !

[LARRYEBOYER]

Chris, I think you should change that flying machine over to CLT. You are setting a bad example for me. I have seen you fly that death trap for years sucessfully, but you have led me to believe clt was not important by your very actions.I went and bought a RAF which was HTL that you encouraged me to buy from Lee.Look at all the danger I was in while having fun in that piece of junk.Oh, I have survived, but no thanks to you and your poor example you have set flying that low rider. You are a bad example in other ways also. You have encouraged me to drink beer with you past my bedtime.I am an old guy now! You have encouraged me to check out sexy blonds at some of these bars you encouraged me to go into with you. You have introduced me to some of your unsavory friends that are questionable pilots and you got me thrown off an airport you encouraged me to fly into while I was out setting bad examples flyin my HTL RAF! You are truely a bad, bad dude. Change your ways and change that AC over to CLT.I will then hang out with you again.I might even continue checking out chicks and drinking a few cold ones with you.And you will be setting a good example at least in one activity of your life.

[CLS447]

LARRY !!!!! QUIT IT !

Did you kill anything up at camp, besides that bag of bud & that case of Lager ?

[barnstorm2]

PS......Who else wants to buy a transponder for their single place gyro ? C'mon, don't be shy, let's all put our hands up !

Chris,

I don't know anyone that "wants" a transponder. They are no fun in my book.

The question is, do you need a transponder with what you fly and where.

I put too much into my wings to put them in any unnecessary risks.

I don't have the FAR's handy right now but I would let that be your guide.

I don't know what kind of output your engine has but I do know that a Transponder and encoder pull some amperage. It might be reasonable to say that your electrical system can't hack it.

Get your facts together and call a FSDO.

.

.

.

[LARRYEBOYER]

Chris, your perception is more exact than you will ever realize!

[Steve Osborne]

Chris wont you need that transponder for the new RAF you ordered?

[CLS447]

Steve, I am licensing my city backyard as a heliport. I will be converting the RAF into a vertical takeoff machine.
It's about time someone does it ! I will be selling plans.

I am also developing a transponder with alt encoder. Expected list price --$50 Very compact & operates on 9V battery.

I will be consulting with Dick & Carol Degraw........now what do you think ?

[LARRYEBOYER]

Chris, I do not want to invest in your new company. I feel that the RAF will be more unstable than before because of vertical lift capibility that you have pioneered. You need to seek liability insurance. Also creating a vertical lift RAF shows a desire to be a bad example. I think your 9 V transponder in a problem for the FAA. Everyone will want one and all those ident and squak codes will be congesting the airways.There you go again creating problems and being a bad example!!!

[CLS447]

LARRY.......There are no problems,.......only solutions !

[LARRYEBOYER]

Could you give me a solution for that Elvis impersonator you and i went to see???
Thank you, thank you very much!!!

[CLS447]

Larry,....... do you have anything serious to add to my thread ?

I thought that really was Elvis !!!!! Are you practice-ing your hand clapping ? & Deb ?

[LARRYEBOYER]

yes, on a serious note. Let's work on that 2 place you have and get it ready for spring. Or lets build a single place from your Benson. I have lots of extra parts looking for a home!When the projects are done, I will applaud wildly, I think.

[CLS447]

I am also going to add a "sport horn " . You know...an air horn in a can.

I've been thinking about a smoker kit. Are there any down sides to a smoker ?

Maybe some Hegar wheels ? They look nice, but I might have to change my axles.

[CLS447]

Heritage field....gyrocopter 26Tango departing runway 28 !!!!!!

WEEEEEEEEEEEEE !!!!!!!!

[WHY]

got a great pair of "long range markers" here Chris

Tony

[CLS447]

Yeah, on a clear day, it's hard to get lost !

[CLS447]

Well yesterday I finished installing the extended range fuel tanks on the gyro.

Is anyone else here using them ?

Since the right tank drains from the bottom to the top of the left tank......I imagine that as the right tank is consumed , it pulls fuel from the left tank. This is why the right tank must have the air vent open & the left tank's vent closed.

This is why the instructions say always use the left tank for partial filling.

I think I will use them this way........ Starting on the Aux tanks, run for 1 hr then switch to the seat tank. This should leave a safe amount of reserve in the aux tanks.

Then I should easily get another hr from the seat which I can easily monitor the seats' fuel gauge.

Last time I was at the hangar I started the 503 for the first time all winter. She smoked pretty good for a while but started relatively easily.

Yesterday I noticed that it had spewed alot of oil from the ball joint on the exhaust & it got all over the place.

Why does it seem to sump up oil when it sits for a while. You would think that with the engine upside down that that amount of oil would stop them plugs from firing at all.

But she fired up & belched smoke till it was all burned off & squirted out of the joint in the exhaust.

Do you think that without a valve on my oil tank, that it seeps through the pump , down the injection lines, & drips into the manifolds ??

I will clean her up while I do this years condition inspection. I also plan to run/ taxi test the new fuel tank plumbing.

I feel that 2 hrs of flying will be enough for an evening or morning.

If the fuel burn is more like 4 gal/ hr......It could fly for as much as 3 hrs !

What do you guys get with your 503's ????

[cgmg]

Chris,

With my AC, I plumbed both tanks into one common line, and pumped that line into the seat tank. The gauges on the tanks sucked, so I just monitored the pump line to know when they were actually empty in flight.

I always flew using the seat tank first. When the level got down to 2 gallons left, I'd pump fuel up.

My fuel use was about 4 gph, when not using the reserve tanks. It went up to about 4.5 gph with both tanks filled.

My machine weighed about 355 pounds empty, and I weighed in at a whopping 155 pounds. My prop pitch was set for climb, as I flew out of a couple of short grass strips occasionally. The airstrip altitude is, I believe, around 740 feet.

Hope this gives you something to baseline against.

[CLS447]

Thanks , Mark ! I will try them as is for now but will reconsider the pump.

[Dirtydog]

CLS447 :
Oh I though you had the tanks all finished already....:noidea:
I'm sorry!

[CLS447]

I have been riding my 125 Zuma to the airport & took some pics for the scooter forum.

My hangar junk.

Iko with Mom Daisy.