Why teach Strip hops?

[ventana7]

A question for you instructors out there.

I have seen several new gyro pilots refer to their early lessons and doing strip hops. I think Ron Menzies downloadable sylabus also has strip hops among the very first training tasks. Why?

Is this a holdover from Bensons early teach yourself to fly book? It certainly is not done in fixed wing instruction and it seems odd to saddle new students with the most difficult and dangerous flight tasks before they even have familiarity with manuvering the machine.

Rob

[Aussie_Paul]

..on obtaining your great gyro. Good decision.

I will simply answer by saying how accomplish the task.

If I train a student in the 2 seat that they will solo in, I just ballast it up with a little over 1/2 my weight, fly a quick circuit to check thr trim and then tell the student, "go fly me a circuit, and if you feel comfortable fly 2."

When transitioning from my stable trainer to the students stable single seater conducting strip runs is the only way the transition can be done safely. We conduct strip runs in the trainer so that the student is comfortable with what I expect them to do.

Next is to have the student taxy with the rotor blades turning and me in a vehicle along side and to the rear out of sight with radio contact. I do not require that the student can talk to me.

We gradually build up over several sessions, sometimes over several days, to balancing on the mains and then a solo hop. I have the student conduct several hours of the Bensen style strip runs untill they can land from 200' engine idling 3 times in a row without me getting excited. :eek:

Then it is time for their first solo circuit in their own machine, and that is a thrill for both the student and myself. :D

I prefere to solo students in the same dual machine that they have trained in. It is much more difficult to transition them to a single place. Both systems work. It is of neccessity that I teach both ways.

I hope this is the sort of feed back you wanted Rob.

Aussie Paul. :)

Remember these pics Rob?

[automan1223]

It seems the most logical next step but I have some concerns with crow hops unless you have optimal runway, wind and airport conditions. Most 2 pl gyros are heavy, they are under powered, which is not always a bad thing. However I feel that as a new student you are trying to cram to many tasks into the into the students bag of skills.


Not giving each task here, I find it unnerving to have to take off with the quickest manner, then almost fly behind the power curve, build just enough airspeed, then drop the power, set up for a landing and drop in before the end of the runway says game over.

If you can picture the riding a bicycle scenairo. You have a little kid just learning... Training wheels are on the highest setting. Can that kid pedal the bicycle slow and look stable or is the bicycle shaky ?. Most kids can ride better faster than they can slow. Of course I am talking about 2 different vehicles but the mind/machine connection is the same, I feel.



However as a new student one has a real possibility to start to pio or yo yo the machine and chase the stick. I believe the old timer logic is that if you are not going that fast and are close to the ground you have a better chance of getting back up if things go wrong.

I much prefer to take off, circle, set up for landing at some kind of altitude, bring it in. Get that sensation of speed and altitude over with and then go learn. But thats just me.

To quote Brent Brown, He confers, saying that he feels that crow hops are "the most" dangerous maneuver you can do in a gyro. For now I tend to agree.

To quote Jim Vaneck he also confers about taking a new student up getting them over the speed, altitude exposure and then proceeding.

Even if you are not really pilot in command, it is not time wasted. You are getting aclimated to flight.

Jonathan

[Doug Riley]

IMHO, training in a powered 2-place should begin with straight-and-level flight at altitude, proceed to maneuvers at altitude and from there to patterns, wave-offs and touch-and-goes. Crow hops should not be a teaching device, and certainly not at the beginning of the training course. A crow hop is something of a precision maneuver, involving accurate management of all flight variables right near the (hard) ground. It's overwhelming and unnecessary to start with crow hops in a 2-seat craft.

Altitude flying is very simple (in a stable trainer, of course). Learning should naturally start with simple tasks and proceed, one task at a time, to the more complex tasks.

Incidentally, takeoffs are the last basic task I teach.

People should do the transition to their own 1-place machines by crow-hopping, however. To avoid surprises, the machine should be checked out and (if possible) flown by an experienced gyronaut before the newbie tries it.

[Udi]

When I transitioned into my single place Air Command, I had no one to help me test fly my gyro, or help me from the ground. The first takeoff - call it a craw hop or whatever - was a real leap of faith. As soon as you leave the runway, even if only to 50 ft, you are flying the machine and every mishap could be your last.

It was a leap of faith because this was the first flight for this home built machine, and the first flight for me as a newbe test pilot in-type, or in any single place gyroplane for that matter! The faith was in me as a builder and a pilot. I am still getting goosebumps whenever I think about that first flight.

In my first takeoff, I climbed to about 50 ft and flew the length of the runway. The objective was to stay over the centerline, manage altitude with power while flying at about 50 MPH, and getting it back down to earth in one piece. I repeated that flight about 4 times and went home for the day.

The next time I, again, only flew the length of the runway but this time I climbed a little higher and did some S turns. Did that 4-5 times and went home.

Next time I climbed to 500 ft and when I saw everything was ok, I turned to crosswind and flew the pattern. My first few approached to landings were powered, and then I started making them steeper and steeper until there was no power at all.

I practiced engine out landings, straight in and with 180 turns, to perfection before I felt comfortable enough to stray off the airport.

Rob has asked why do gyros do crow hops, or flying over the runway, and FW don’t. I think there are a few reasons:

1. Gyros fly slowly and we CAN fly over the runway for a while without leaving it - this is our security blanket.

2. Many times, out first flight it also the gyro's first test flight. Staying slow and low is safer in case there is a gross problem with the aircraft (less speed and distance to fall...)

3. Gyros don't need much runway to land. When you have a problem over the runway, chop power, land somehow, and you are done. Most FW aircraft would overrun the end of the runway if they tried landing from mid-field at 500 ft.

Incidentally, my first mountain jumping in a hang glider was also a kind of a crow hop. I was told by my instructor to jump (i.e. take off), fly straight, and land in the field without even doing S turns. This was a good advice because I was so overwhelmed by the altitude and the relatively no movement of the ground below, that all I could do was keep it level. My first 360-degree turn in altitude was a real challenge.

Udi

[Doug Riley]

Udi, even that was pretty aggressive. I suggest that, transitioning to a single-place, people first get the ground handling down cold by driving around without blades. In many gyros, the rudder starts to become effective at a fast taxi, and this is a low-risk way to get totally familiar with the pedals and steering.

Next, one can mount the rotor and get it spinning. With no more than a 10 mph headwind and NO cross component, feel the machine out by lifting the nosewheel and lowering it a few times with each pass down the runway, at below flight power. Gradually increase power on succeeding runs until you're just floating off and setting it right back down again. Be alert for unusual vibes or control pressures (how's the trim spring?). Pay close attention to the amount of rudder pedal pressure you need to fly straight and coordinated (it can be a huge amount at low airspeeds). Notice any side-stick pressures you need to prevent torque roll as you leave the ground.

If these hops go well, you can proceed to the kind of flights Udi described. If this is your first time in a 1-place, I wouldn't proceed from crow hops to patterns in a single day. Spread the learning out over a couple sessions on succeeding days.

Incidentally, stop frequently (maybe every half hour) to rest AND to inspect the machine. Look carefully for stuff coming loose, chafing, leaking fluids and so on. That's the "test flight" part of the experience!

[gyroman]

Craig Wall from the old forum listed some good info on doing crow hops. I took all his info vebatim from the conference and composed it into a page on my website. Here's the link..

Crowhopping Tips (http://users2.ev1.net/~gyroman/tips/Crowhopping.htm)

[Dean_Dolph]

Doug, you have been flying gyros so long that I know you must have self-trained. And I suspect like Rob mentioned in the opening post in this thread that you did crow hops per Bensen. I know in talking to everyone that self trained that this is what they did. The difference I see between today and the old days is that for whatever reason people have lost their patience. Consequently they do not make good self-trainers.

Dave Prater related to me that when he self-trained; he followed the Bensen method and never even flew the pattern for the first year! We all know that Dave is an accomplished gyro pilot and now is a retired corporate pilot.

What I'm getting too is that I don't see that kind of patience today. And I think it has led to a lot of the problems we blame on machine and training. I believe that your method of training ground handling and takeoffs last in the sequence of skill building is the proper way of doing it these days. And I also agree that Udi's transition was extremely aggressive. Transitioning from an instructors two place to the students machine is one of the two areas of training that have been pretty much accepted as training weak points. The other is in the area of gyro theory.

Crow hops makes sense, as part of the transition, if the owner/pilot is the test pilot on his/her machine. It provides an opportunity to sort out handling before venturing higher or over unfriendly territory. But if at all possible I believe it is in the best interest of the pilot/owner if the machine is checked out by the instructor or a very experienced pilot. They can identify rigging problems/solutions and pass on any handling/performance idiosyncrasies.

I know that there are, or have been, instructors such as Marion Springer, who wouldn’t start training until the students machine has been brought to them. Marion actually kept the students machine to make sure the student didn’t try to fly until the transition training was complete.

[Udi]

Doug - I haven’t mentioned all the taxi work I have done prior to the first takeoff I described above.

I haven’t done any taxiing without the blades mounted on, but I kept the rotor brake on for the first 30 minutes of taxiing. Then, I practiced taxiing with the blades turning, and I gradually proceeded to autorotation. After an hour or two of that, I started balancing on the mains. I practiced balancing on the mains for about 4 hours until I felt the machine "is an extension of my body". I didn't have to think about the controls anymore.

This is when my progression departed Craig Wall’s plan described on Toby's web site. I could not gradually add power until the gyro "skimmed" the runway. My Rotax 532 would get "on the pipe" at about 4500 RPM and jump to 6000 RPM without transition. At 4300-4400 RPM, the gyro would not yet get airborne. At 6000 RPM it would, naturally, take off.

So after I have mastered balancing on the mains at pre-takeoff power, I had no choice but to go to a full-blown takeoff. I think it would have been a waste of time and maybe even dangerous to try and do short crow hops with a peaky power band.

Udi

[Doug Riley]

Dean, perhaps people expect instant gratification more than before.

Yeah, I did self-train. I spent a year gyro-gliding (about 50 flight hours) and a second year crow-hopping and flying over the runway (another 50). However, many people back in that (supposedly) more patient era did NOT take the time. They just jumped in and blasted off. Lots of them smoked in.

From the point of view of human nature, it's a lot to ask someone to wade through two YEARS of baby steps before flying one single pattern. When you're self-teaching in machines with unreliable engines and marginal stability, that's simply what it takes. But it's a bit unreasonable for an activity that's supposed to be a leisure-time pursuit. It SHOULDN'T be that hard to learn.

I think a dual-training syllabus that uses some of today's clever techniques for rapid learning of sports skills, together with a safe aircraft, can shorten the learning process dramatically. It still takes patience, and it will always require maturity and judgment to fly responsibly. 100 years after the Wright Brothers, though, we shouldn't need to go through the obsessive, painfully tentative steps that the first pilots took.

P.S.: Two of the reasons that I took so long to fly the pattern were (1) I didn't have the money for an engine right away and (2) the 1500 and 1600 VW's I had at first wouldn't climb far out of ground effect!

[ventana7]

Thanks everybody for your input. Paul and Doug you addressed different issues and both of your posts made great sense-thanks for the detail.

I was sort of concerned when I read one student describing his first few hours of dual and mentioning strip hops and also Jerseywing in the thread on "First Lesson" mentioned he was in his 6th hour of dual and really enjoyed flying behind the power curve-- yikes.
Also Ron Menzies whom I don't know but have only heard wonderful things about has strip hops in his first dual lessons.
Those are the parts that made no sense to me.
Rob

[mcbirdman]

At some time soon I will be trying to seek out additional training in gyros. However, when it comes time, I will still be on my own since the machine is not a model that is available for training.

My issue I stuggle with is that being a tail dragger might be worse for me to do crow hops. In a normal landing the ground roll should be basically nothing. Running down the runway and then possibly having a situation of landing sideways or with runway drift after just trying to put it down is a lot of workload as I percieve it. Ideally it would be nice to have someone else fly it if they wanted to and then could tell me if something was pulling to the side or whatever. Even transitioning from a trainer to this will be different since it would be the first time I flew the machine. Knowing that everything is good and trimmed out the way it should be would give me the confidence to know that how it is flying is totally how I am flying it.

I like the idea of taking off and trying crowhops but if something isn't what I like to just fly the pattern. Getting a bit of time up there and the feel of the stick I would think would really help me get to know the ship a bit better. Even if I did some setup/goarounds, I could make sure everything was ok.

Interesting thread. I either do what I said above or wait another year or who knows a little more... Finish our 2 place machines and then start training. With the single place there though and me not flying I am trying to think about my next part of the plans.... jtm

[mceagle]

I believe that if a student isn't up to crow hops then they havent received enough training to do a high solo circuit.
Crow hops should be a part of the students confidence building procedure.
If a solo student did "overload", his chances of living would be far better from 10 ft than from 1000 ft. Take off and landing accidents are vary rarely fatal (in fact I do not know that I recall any).

[Jerseywing]

No not flying behind the curve, learning how to deal with it. I may have used the wrong words. Lift the nose till it slows and starts to descend. I find it fascinating. I've worked with much more dangerous stuff and am confident in the attitude of "qualified operators following approved procedures" Only through proper training and practice can you deal with any situation that may come your way. Whether it be 1000' down or 1000' up you do it right or you don't come home.

[KenSandyEggo]

"Only through proper training and practice can you deal with any situation that may come your way."

Not exactly true, Michael. You can't deal with a power pushover in a high-thrustline gyro without at least a proper stabilizing device on the frame.

[Jerseywing]

I can't argue with that

[mcbirdman]

Tim -That is true in one respect. Doing what you propose means they haven't done the critical landing. But the danger is there while on the ground with runway drift and whatever else. I already have automatic teeter limiters, a lockable forward stick and flying experience of 3 airplanes, 2 autogyros. I still need more time training. I know I will be practice taxing more. I know what a good approach is, traffic control/avoidance and are used to doing it. I just don't know how much throttle, how much stick and rudder etc...

I think it makes sense to get used to the input of the controls, the response time, how the machine generally flies fast, slow and whatnot....All needing to be done with altitude. Getting use to rpms and the general feel makes that approach much more automatic. Doing so on the ground with a taildragger no less.... on a machine that does not have tandem instruction available is probably better off in the air with a buffer zone. If it does get test flown first there is no doubt it will fly, just provide additional time for the solo pilot to learn what it does without the low altitude hazzards.

It does mean that instead of breaking down all the other portions into little steps that would all come together for the landing by flying a circuit...... you would the additional features such as pilot overload, landing hazzards without even getting to fly it in the easier mode and the risk of being under the power curve . Too many things going on at once. But the main thing I feel worried is about the possibility of ground loop. Normal flying with this aircraft you would only be powering up and getting off the runway. Landing would just be a controlled decent with very little ground roll. Trying to run down the runway and then Not move down the runway because you don't want to get too high makes it seem like you are better off on the ground - avoid flying out of a problem.... I see what you mean and maybe something in between would be good....Basically, If I tried crowhops but somehow ended up out of runway and off centerline... I wouldn't want to feel bad about just taking her up, around and settling back to the beggining of the runway.... I still have the time to think and schedule more time. And I appreciate the input. I just don't see overloading for me happening at any height that allows me time to feel the machine and have a few minutes to practice decent and knowing I can drop the nose instead of being by the ground and can't drop it.... I think just a few minutes to adapt and I am ok.

I have pretty much gotten used to flying from either seat in all the planes and sometimes when I was just sitting there my flying partner would say "got it ?" and "you want to land?". I would have to get used to going into pilot mode from that of a passenger... from checking the trim of the plane, what it wanted to do, the rudder input and switch settings in order to do it correctly. Assuming that it has flown before and I am finally getting in it, I would rather be handed a plane that is already flying and have a few minutes with her instead of switching on and off on and off during a critical flight manuver such as landing. Kinda like getting a chance to shoot some test arrows off into flight before aiming for the bullseye. But thats just where I am at. Who knows Tim, as I start taxing maybe I do the fast and next thing I know... same thing.... Plenty of time to think about it. I just did hang test and am mounting the 3 push pull tubes. Have an issue with the exaust routing that I am going to pipe out instead of down. Got all the real hardware to replace for the torque tube. Hope I measured right... Thanks jtm

Also, if you wanted to see how it behaves behind the power curve I would suggest doing that at a safe altitude. Learning that close to the ground doesn't give you much room on one side of the envelope.
jtm

[mcbirdman]

Oh yea, forgot,

The first time I went flying they put me in a plane, made me taxi, backtaxi and then takeoff. I had the plane all the way down to 20 feet of the runway before the instructor had the plane. When I think back.... I realize that they were doing the opposite. They are flying and if I had gotten into trouble such as runway drift or whatever... It was easy to add throttle and get out. The option was there to get up to speed guicker because we were flying and then trying to land. This gave us the chance to get out if things weren't right instead of being under the power curve/stall all the time. It also gave me the benefit to see how she flys and try different power settings, get used to all the noise and stress before coming down. I think it made it easier for me. Imagine if we did crow hops in a plane until we flew it. Runway drift, less of an option generally for go arounds and definately high pilot workload. Yea, I think I like it the other way. Seems a more natural transition for me, maybe not for someone who isn't used to being up there and coming down. jtm

[animal]

Udi, even that was pretty aggressive. I suggest that, transitioning to a single-place, people first get the ground handling down cold by driving around without blades. In many gyros, the rudder starts to become effective at a fast taxi, and this is a low-risk way to get totally familiar with the pedals and steering.

Next, one can mount the rotor and get it spinning. With no more than a 10 mph headwind and NO cross component, feel the machine out by lifting the nosewheel and lowering it a few times with each pass down the runway, at below flight power. Gradually increase power on succeeding runs until you're just floating off and setting it right back down again. Be alert for unusual vibes or control pressures (how's the trim spring?). Pay close attention to the amount of rudder pedal pressure you need to fly straight and coordinated (it can be a huge amount at low airspeeds). Notice any side-stick pressures you need to prevent torque roll as you leave the ground.

If these hops go well, you can proceed to the kind of flights Udi described. If this is your first time in a 1-place, I wouldn't proceed from crow hops to patterns in a single day. Spread the learning out over a couple sessions on succeeding days.

Incidentally, stop frequently (maybe every half hour) to rest AND to inspect the machine. Look carefully for stuff coming loose, chafing, leaking fluids and so on. That's the "test flight" part of the experience!

I have to disagree with the idea of taxiing with the blades off, that is how I wreaked a gyro ,I had a v.w. powered bensen and was doing like the book how to fly gyros said and was taxiing with the blades off, the throttle stuck on my second run and I could not reach the kill switch before I was doing 45 m.p.h.
in a matter of seconds I had run off the runway hit a 3 foot high dirt pile and cart wheeled ,I had been told by several that if I had the blades on I would not picked up speed as fast and that the blades also stablize you more.
I have not tryed to fly a gyro by my self since,messed up my back and did not help the gyro to much either. luckily I had a good helmet and face sheild.
witnesses said I had flipped 2 times before I hit the ground.

[mcbirdman]

Animal. I agree about the speeds with the blades on mine because if the tail comes "UP" and I even touch the brakes.... what do you think will happen? I can pull back on a stick that does nothing. I think it is good to have the articulated head for control at fast upper taxi - almost flying speeds.

But if you are going to do it...the blades better be spinning. That is why I was writing as I did above. At that speed when you're giving it all you got to lift off or right on the edge of it to crowhop - I think things get squirelly until you just "push through" and fly.

In addition I like the weight of the blades helping to keep the tail down by its own weight leaning back on the tail. On a taildragger there is more than enough weight on the nose. Any weight moving back will help preven from the engine pulling the frame over if I was to hit a step up say from grass to the concrete or whatever. The tail bounces alot on the grass without the blades and affects steering I noticed. It is kind of nice to be able to start thinking about getting ready to put her out soon. I have a few more bills to take care of and then I am going to put away a little money to see if I can get some more flight time... jtm

[Aussie_Paul]

Animal, you had 2 problems. The machine had none!!!! Sorry.

1) you could not reach the kill switch, not the machines fault.

2) You had the throttle stick, not the machines fault.

Aussie Paul.:)

[mcbirdman]

Didn't he say he couldn't reach the kill switch IN TIME?
Both points are more along preflight lines....and should have come first. And maybe more importantly point out that all the parts are exposed which means we should experience less issues stemming from not catching something pre-flight.

However, the point made though.... with the rotors in place he feels he would have had a little longer to reach for the kill switch as there was no drag left him and has said that it left him even fewer options to work with. jtm

[mrford61]

I cant understand the conception that the transition from twin seat to single is in any way difficult.

After about 10 hours total dual place with 2 very, very experienced instructors who knew their stuff , I went home to my single seater, did some hops and thought "this feels much better" , and went flying.

Mark Clifford - Australia.

[Dean_Dolph]

Mark, if you didn't have any problem transitioning then of course you don't see any problem!

But not everyone has that experience. In fact having the problem is more the norm than the exception. I say that when in fact no one has taken a survey; we just hear the stories. Hey, we can do a survey here!

But even if it turns out that transitioning isn't as big a problem as it is thought (If I was the only one that had a problem it would be big to me!) that doesn't mean that it is not important to those that might have difficulty. And since it would be difficult to identify those that will have the problem then transition training should be provided to everyone. An ounce of prevention is worth.............

I still believe that an owner/pilot should have his/her machine test flown by an unbiased experienced pilot before ever attempting to fly it. New machines, and previously owned, to verify it is in rig plus an evaluation of any unique idiosyncrasies.

[mrford61]

Point taken Dean.

I just found the lighter machine, and particularly the keel and instrument pod in the middle much easier. ( I trained in S x S ).

From what I can gather from this thread is we are talking about transitioning the student to being on his own more-so than transitioning from one gyro to another.

When you,re learning it is all fun anyway. I can still remember the embarrassment of sitting in the gyro in the shed, months before I got to train, doing imaginary flights, engine sounds and all, and my father walking in on me.

You know he checked the gyro out for a week before he eventually asked "OK, what turns the top blades." When I told him nothing mechanically he grunted and walked away. Dad wasnt narrow minded, just practical. If there was a vee belt and pulley system of some sort attached he would have been happy.

sorry about rabbitting on off topic.


Mark Clifford - Australia.

[Aussie_Paul]

Transitioned another student, Graeme, from my trainer to his fully checked out and tested single seater. :D

The last part of our dual was to balance the trainer on the mains for half the strip and then add power to take off and fly the pattern. Each landing was with engine idling.
My student spent 20 or 30 mins last evening taxying with the rotors turning, with opprox 10 mph air speed. After the dual this morning I had Graeme conducting 30 minute sessions gradually getting faster untill he could balance on the mains the length of the strip. Then it was bite the bullet time, add power and fly for 50 yards. The next three 30 minute sessions, untill the rain stopped him, Graeme got better and better at flying the full length of the 2600' grass strip as steady as a rock.
A great completion to 9 days of enjoyable work.

This machine was finished by Graemewho bought it after it had been rolled twice without any airtime!!!!!

Before I would let him even taxi it took 6 modifications to sort this machine out. It had been built by someone who did not have any idea of how to correctly set up a gyro, yet they were a gyro pilot!!!!! :eek:


Mods required were,

Shift axle forward 2".
Shift tail feathers back 11".
Increase the size of the rudder area.
Change rudder to pedal ratio.
Change nosewheel to pedal ratio.
Add springs to the nosewheel steering to allow self aligning of nosewheel.
Now that we have it sorted out Graeme can redo the rudder and rudder cables to make it more aesthetic than it is at the present moment.

The engine is an ea-81 and it has a ribbed belt drive. The thrust line is 5" above the CoM and it has a flat plate stab on the keel. I believe that an upside down rotor blade stab at the top of the fin in the prop wash will do the trick.

The pic on the trailer was before I had test flown it. The rest of the pics are shown after the mods started to happen.

Aussie Paul. :)

[Aussie_Paul]

My appologies animal re the ignition switch. I should have done what we do building gyros. Measure twice, cut once!!! I should have read the post twice and typed once!!!!!!!! LOL.

Aussie Paul.:)

[automan1223]

I think last year it was written in a pra article a new student that had solo'd with minimal time decided he would go folow his instructor around the pattern. It was reported that no one was flying except the instructor because it was so windy / gusty. The student made the first mistake of thinking he was as good as his cfi to go play in serious, his second mistake was not securing his seat belt and his 3rd was not securing his helmet. When the machine augered in soon after lift off he was ejected from the seat and then hit in the head from the rotor blade. I dont think he survived.

Jonathan

[Chuck Roberg]

Jonathan, You are right. That was Jim Gear from the Joliet, Il area. It happened at the Lansing, IL airport on New Years day.

Left out of the report, was that Jim had asked someone for some aspirin. He said he had a terrible headache. That in its self should have told him to stay on the ground.

In addition his Instructor told him NOT to fly. Also another long time gyro pilot told him "I have over several hundred hours flying gyro's, and I won't go up today". He was advised twice more not to fly.

He agreed not to fly, but said he was going to the hangar area to bring his gyro over for his kids and girlfriend to look at. It is suspected that when he saw the other gyro flying he implusively changed his mind. Remember he was "only" going to taxi, so he did not buckle his seat belt or fasten his helmet.

When his instructor noticed him heading for the active runway, he landed right away and attemped to keep him from flying. But he was too late.

The result now, is that everyone at our airport KNOWS gyro's are deadly and will kill you.

[automan1223]

Chuck, that story killed me when I read it in the mag and it kills me now. If you do not have patience and the will or wont power to heed advise then you do not belong in a pilots seat.

"For his kids and girlfriend to look at..."

Just because you can walk does not mean you can run.

[Doug Riley]

If your throttle sticks wide open while taxiing with rotor blades, you're probably going to roll the machine anyway. The blades don't "stabilize" a gyro on the ground, they de-stabilize it substantially.

As well as being more likely, rolling a gyro WITH blades is both more dangerous and more expensive than rolling one without them. Occasionally, a blade in such accidents hits the pilot. The results can range from minor injury (been THERE...) to fatality.

(BTW, the throttle on a gyro should NEVER be sprung so that it will go wide open if, say, the cable breaks. This is often done on FW planes and is probably OK there, but not on gyros. Rotax 900-series engines come with carbs that do this. I hope everybody who has one on a gyro has reversed the spring. I sure did.)

[Udi]

...BTW, the throttle on a gyro should NEVER be sprung so that it will go wide open if, say, the cable breaks...
Why? As long as you have immediate access to the kill switch, I would rather have to deal with more power than I need than no engine at all. I guess there must be something I am missing...

Udi

[Doug Riley]

Udi, there have been several stories over the years in the PRA mag and elsewhere about gyros going unexpectedly to full throttle on the ground. Even if you're pretty quick at realizing what's happening and reaching for the kill switch, with such a light and high-powered craft, you may have sprinted ahead far enough to do some damage and/or flip over before you can shut it off. That's at least the way these things have come out in the reports.

How about in the air? With the throttle stuck wide open, you might be able to descend and still keep it running by "blipping" the switch the way WWI pilots used to do. Again, though, with such a light frame, the pitching and rolling this would cause would be apt to be wild. I think I'd shut it off anyway and do a deadstick.

[ventana7]

I originally started this thread asking about dual instruction but it has evolved to include dual training, transition training and new macnine testing. I think each issue should be addressed seperately as the resuling decisions will certainly affect the acccident rate on gyros.

In reading Craig's crophop method which Toby posted it talks about flying 1" off the pavement. That is VERY precise flying. How would even an experinced pilot in a new machine know EXACTLY how much power is needed to accomplish that?

I remember many flights in different airplanes even of the same type - and how long it took to figure out what power setting would equal what result-- ie in one Cessan 172 pulling back 1/2" on the throttle may result in an rpm drop of 1000 and in another one it could be a 750rpm drop. In one it might result in a 500fpm descent and in another a 700 fpm descent. In some aircraft moving the stick 2 inches equals a 30 degree bank and in others a 40 degree bank. Same with rudder. It's lots easier to learn those things at 1500 feet than at 1 foot.

Mceagle, while fatalities may be rare in landing- lots of machines got broken by being tipped or yawed a few degrees one way or the other or being 20 feet left or right, 3' high or low on landing- if those same mistakes were made at altitude it is totally immaterial. Learning without bending anything is preferable don't you agree.

If landings and take-offs are the highest stress and most precesion manuvers why would you require your students to master them first with the attendant risk of bent metal before allowing them to learn the machines characteristics in the safe environment of higher altitude?

If a student is nervous about altitude or speed the instr should give them a low level demo flight with or with out crowhops as necessary but fear of speed or height should certainly be dealt with while they are a passenger LONG before they ever get the stick in hand as a real student.
Rob

High speed taxi and momentary 1" agL flights certainly make sense for testing a new machine, but imho not for students.

Rob

[mceagle]

G'day Rob.
Misunderstanding I think. I agree with Doug that first you take students up and teach them to fly and only then do you send them solo to do some crow hops in their own machine - mainly to familiarise them with their own machines idiosyncrasies at a low and comparatively safe height.

[Aussie_Paul]

I even teach them to "land" at height, by having them raise the nose as in holding off the runway. This gets them used to the higher nose attitude and also to the amount of force required to overcome the trim spring pressure as the speed decays below trim speed.

I will say this though. MY first 2 seater A/Command(25' McCuchens) was so marginal and no dual ignition, that I did 90% of the training as strip runs. I was lucky to have bitumen runways over 3000' long. We could get to sufficient height to land with the engine idling. Remember those days Tim? You and I sure did it hard back then.

Once I got my 582 and 27' McCuchens I was happy to train at some altitude untill s/l was ok.

That was all I had at that time, and that is what I had to do to help people. I can't believe now that I can have 10 US gallons of gas, a 220lb student and my 200 lb butt and have 800 engine rpm to spare at 50 mph. Technology and knowledge have come a long way, thank goodness.

Aussie Paul.

[mcbirdman]

Tim, it sounds like the same thing you said before except that you are saying dual flight before skimming the runway. I agree with the first part but I, like Rob would learn a lot more on a go around before putting it all on the hardest part of flying...landing. Assuming that a person is comfortable enough getting up there and bringing it around it gives you some height to do it and then just bring it back down but with speed to make sure the blades are up to speed during the landing but you will already know how much power it takes to have a decent decent and flare because you figured it out on the approach. I guess I can see it a little that way but since the actual sensation of flight, traffic patterns and that kind of stuff being automatic would allow me to focus in on the handling of the a/c and would seem safer and more natural to do... same as the FW instructors taught. Do the simpler tasks and then put it all together. This is one area that apparently is different than FW instruction. jtm

[gyroman]

Rob,

Let me give a little background on the Crowhopping info from Craig Wall.

At the time he wrote this there had been a couple rollover accidents due to students just jumping into their new machine and crowhopping to 30 ft or more, many without any training.

Craig was basically trying to get the point across that crowhopping is not something you just jump in a gyro and do. It is a patient approach to learning the characteristics of flight in your particular gyro by doing things slowly to the point of backing out of any new flight envelope before you were fully committed to it. Obviously, your not going to hang a tape measure out the side and measure getting 1" off the runway.

Craig used to promote self training since he didn't have much confidence in the CFI's available at the time. He proposed anyone could self train but it takes a great deal of PATIENCE which most people nowadays do not have.

He did say dual training would be the first choice if you could find a knowledgable CFI with correct training techniques. But given the distances travelled and cost some people do try to self train. He was just trying to educate them as the best way to do this if you were going disregard the advice to get dual training. First order of business was always to read the Bensen training syllabus several times over...

[jucie]

An effort to adapt a guy to his own gyro (crosshops or whatever) is mostly needed. If you go fly your own machine, without being acquainted with it's behavior, your brain is dealing with too many new information at once. Weird things may happen when it is so busy. I learned this lesson the hard way. :o

How I managed to destroy my gyro (http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1412)

[ventana7]

Paul,
Teaching a simulated flare at altitude is a great idea as so much of flying gyros is learning to pin the nose atitude.

I appreciate what Toby and Tim are saying but I certainly disagree. Machine testing makes sense at low altitude (maybe 20') so in the event of a catastrophic component failure you don't plummet from on high. But I think other teaching if done at high altitude eliminates stress, has quicker learing results and reduces chances for bent metal.

To me strip hops are only a dangerous holdover from previous days. I fail to see how crashing on landing after a strip hop is better than crashing on landing after a circuit. And a circuit being safer is less likely to result in a crash at all.

- Think about it- if you attain flying speed come off the ground and just keep doing what got you off the ground you will go up and up to safety. Nothing bad is going to happen until you come back down. (we'll talk about that in a minute).

On the otherhand if you come off the ground and try to stay right over the runway any minor screw up is going to have you touching down either off center, going sideways, sideload, rollover, etc. And keep in mind you just took off and now have to IMMEDIATELY figure out the proper position for throttle, stick, rudder and power to maintain s/l. These positions are different from what got you off the ground so you need to make lots of changes perfectly and immediately.

Back to the full flight scenario- you take off climb up to altitude have a chance to relax, practice how much throttle movement equals how much rpm drop, how much stick, rudder, etc give you the results you need.
Now you get on long final and high above the ground you move everything to master and tweak your airspeed, rudder, stick, etc to get the airspeed and descent right. Now you arrive 10 feet over the runway in complete control relaxed and in stable flight for those final moments when you need to put the wheels back down. There is much less chance now that you will side, load, get crabbed, rollover etc.

The insurance thread talked about how gyros accident rate is astronomically higher than fixed wing. IMHO if gyro instruction emulated fixed wing instruction this would certainly drop.

I don't want to sound like I'm on a high horse but if the newbies took the simple and free step of going to their public library and picked up a ground school type fixed wing flying text book they would learn a ton and the knowledgable people on this forum would not have to spend time arguing over downwind turns, altitude settings, basic flight physics, etc.

OK -- I'll get off the soapbox.

Rob

[Chopper Reid]

Sorry Rob but I disagree totally with your idea of the FW idea of takeoff and around the patch for gyro's. Much better to learn how to fly a gyro S & L at a few feet off the ground than spend 15 minutes doing nothing other than one takeoff and landing. Doing hops on a long runway gives the student a takeoff and landing in quick time and as well, makes better use of time. If anyone is going to PIO then a few feet off the ground is going to teach them how not to PIO quickly.Once you have this part down pat, then by all means around the circuit and start on those power off landings !
Just lucky I'm not an instructor :p
PS, Rob, you mentioned my favourite topic, DWT's :) .I will amend that to CLIMBING DWT's

[mcbirdman]

Interesting Chopper. Your main reason is for disagreement is that you are putting training priority on number of landings and takeoffs. That seems to say you feel that one takeoff in 15 minutes... oops you are saying that exactly.... "doing nothing better than one takeoff and landing" is not worthwhile. You say it gives the student a takeoff and landing in quick time. I would agree with this only IF we are assuming the instructor on the gyro at the same time in order to be available during these critical excercises.

The point has been made that it is possible to overload the pilot with the most critical aspects - landing and takeoff - without allowing the benefit of a go around that would most certainly give the pilot a chance to get the feel of the aircraft.. I am glad you are not an instructor either because it seems totally backward in all the other aviation training I have had so far. ;)

It does not make sense to expect someone to be able to put it all together at first and then let them do the less stressful part of the work IF they learn to land and takeoff. That is why instructors in FW training let us takeoff first day, go learn what the plane would do and how it reacts and then let us bring it down as close as we were able, until we were able..... Even a juggler starts with one object and works his way up to more complicated moves. There is a lot to be learned in just one go around and then they would be right back where they started .... but at the beginning of the runway - even better.... with a feeling of how the machine reacts to different power settings and how much stick gives how much reaction. To me it all seems alot more predictable.

In other words - you are right that you get more T'off and L's but that is not the point. It isn't a race. It is about accomplishing tasks in a calm calculated manner in order to reduce pilot overload which is often a factor in the making of an accident. And in most cases altitude is your friend. Learning a few feet off the ground isn't that friendly. There is no room to recover. Yes, I think there is stuff to be learned from FW training.

The only other thing I would say is that if the goal was just to lift off once and just put it down if it feels right, on centerline, no drift or whatever - however leaving the option to just go around being just as correct - I wouldn't have a problem with trying a hop. It just seems that if you lifted off to high, tried to get down when you would have been better to just go - but didn't because it wasn't in the plan, it would be easy to panic and just try to get it down off runway or sideways or whatever when we should really be ready to just do it.

[Chopper Reid]

mcbirdman,.
Sorry, didnt mean that I would only do hops, not at all, first off the usual circuits then get down to hops [with an instuctor ]. A lot depends on the weather /wind and time the student and instructor have. I believe training needs to be done with no wind, or as little as possible, usually dawn and evening out here are the best times for still conditions and its important to make best use of the time available and yes, I totally agree with you, its no race, not at all !!
Also believe that the instructor should be able to assess when the student is starting to overload, this might take 10 minutes or 30 minutes but I certainly agree with regular breaks to be able to soak in the learning.
Its only my thoughts but I reckon a student has to be able to be able to learn to keep the gyro S&L and also the most important part, is the power off landings.
One thing that does disturb me is the case where students are disregarding instuctors and geting airborne before being signed off. If I had of done this with my FW instructor, I would have been grounded for life . My thoughts are that cause a gyro is so small [compared to FW] people seem to reckon they are "toys" and must be able to be flown by anyone. Does anyone agree on this point ? Seems lives are being lost and gyro's bent because students arent taking notice of the rules.

[ventana7]

Chopper,
We certainly agree about listening to your instructor. I got my fixed wing training in a BIG school at the 2nd busiest GA airport in the US. In my years flying out of there I only heard 1 or 2 instances of students doing something their instructor would disapprove of. In reading gyro forum posts I've come across dozens and dozens.

If gyro insturctors would adapt a standarized approach to teaching similiar to what has proven to work for tens of thousands of FW pilots we would all be better off. This would include ground school, and most importantly decision making, etc.

Rob

[Doug Riley]

My experience hopping dozens of first-timers (some seasoned FW pilots, some who've never been in a small aircraft aof any type) is that (in a stable aircraft) anyone can fly the machine staright and level at altitude almost immediately. That is, they can keep the craft upright and can control airspeed within plus or minus 5 mph. This is good evidence to me that such flying is the easiest task in gyroing. One should start with the easy steps and build on them. A nicely timed and calibrated landing flare is a work of skill (if not of art) and could not be pulled off by these same newbies. In fact, it takes hours to get this task smooth.

Easy first, then difficult. Crow hops are the least dangerous way to teach yourself, but teaching yourself is inherently risky.

[mcbirdman]

It might not be that gyro students are not following the rules. It might be that they are just not taking advantage of proper training that would teach them things they simply don't know. Proper training would take them from knowing nothing up to what decisionmaking is mature and responsible. It starts them off flying with broad control and then starts to go back and hone the skills as they start specializing /concentrating on each individual aspects of a skill as a student progresses.

A student that trys to self teach is definately at risk of loss in both knowledge and life. Saying something is too far away or too expensive is like saying it isn't worth driving to the boat store to buy a life preserver when you know you are getting ready to cross the sea. You can do it, but you have to decide how important your life is to you and your family.

Yes, I think there is too many people that wanted to fly, put money in the machines but shorted themselves with similiar reasoning which put some people at risk for which many people paid the price. And I sure agree it has made the gyro community look bad.

I know there isn't a lot of instructors around here but I feel it is worth the trip to find them and that is what I will do. There is alot we can learn from others. jtm

[automan1223]

There is one benefit to doing hops. If you do have an instructor to help you from the get go... there are mechanical issues that can arise such as loose hardware, engine gremblins, trim gremblins, etc.

With my experience learning with Maxie, on my 2pl we ran into a few of these situations where is was better to break in the machine doing small flights than just going for it around the pattern. Dealing with a small issue on a short, small hop is a good way to trim out a new machine or one with mods.

As luck would have it when all the bugs were worked out the time spent was a very good learning experience and not a waste of money or time. It was even more intriguing when we did decide the "next run" would be hop around the pattern the engine heard this and decided not to turn up all the way. Thus telling us it had some issue to deal with. Much better to have an engine hickup on a hop than at altitude.

Jonathan

[mceagle]

G'day again Rob.
One of our troubles is that out of 10,000 gyros (?) in the world, there would be lucky to be 20 0r 30 identically handling machines. This differs from GA where most 172's for example would handle the same, and even the handling differences between a 172 and a 180 are minimal. Not only that, but you must be endorsed to fly an aircraft with even these minor differences.
How do you get an endorsement to be qualified to fly your vastly different home built Gyro after your two seat training? Also this "home built" may do well to get some air time before it gets to 1000 ft with an inexperienced pilot.
One way is a controlled process of runway hops until the differences in handleing are well appreciated.
I will repeat that these hops only come after the full two seat training regime so there should be no consideration about the students ability to safely circuit the Instructors two seater with the instructor beside him.
I know of a couple of students who have had a "melt down" on their first solo circuit at altitude, one of which was killed.
No one is suggesting doing hops in an unsafe manner. It requires a long and wide strip with minimal air traffic. With no air raffic I often managed a take off and landing every one minute whereas circuiting the correct pattern can take 15 minutes for every take off and landing. The student becomes much more adept at this most critical phase of gyroplane flight before their first solo circuit.
James, in your case you will have to be well familiar with the ground handling, takeoffs and landings before your first solo flight. Touchy tail-draggers require much more respect.

[Aussie_Paul]

.....Tim, that is as perfect a routine as anyone would want. Why do I say that? Because it works!!!!! :)

Since I began training with pitch stable trainers the training goes along the same lines as training in a fixed wing. As I have said many times previously, the basic principals of flight with a pitch stable, and correctly set up gyro is the same as with a fixed wing.

The teaching technique with a stabless Raf is totally different to the teaching technique with a pitch stable and correctly set up gyro. I think that because most gyro trainers have varying degrees of instability that each instructor probably works out the best way to teach in his particular trainer. This could be why there seems to be far less uniformity in the gyro training system.

I believe that the transition to the single seat should be conducted the way I did it with Graeme, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, BUT there are problems with distance to drag machines across vast distances. :(

Having the students machine properly tested and set up correctly is very very important.

I have had experienced gyro pilots fly a students gyro and come back and say great. I take it for a fly and come and say it will be great when we have the stick in the centre, the rudder pedals tuned to the nose wheel and rudder authority, axle in the position for ease of balancing on the mains, and the trim set to the cruise speed for the student’s weight, etc.

Graeme’s machine could have been flown by most gyro pilots with a few years and a couple of hundred hours. These are the experienced pilots that get asked to test a machine. Trouble is their skills overcome the little idiosyncrasies that will catch a new student out and cost a lot of money, and put their relatives and friends against them being involved in gyroplanes.

How many machines do we all know of that are sitting sheds or barns corroding away due to a roll over? :eek: I imagine quite a few!!!!!! :o

This has been a great educational thread, with some very wise input. Thanks to those people and I am sure there will be less machines rolled due to the advice from this thread.

Pics are of Graemes first day of circuits yesterday. He was a happy chappy, I can tell you!!!!

Aussie Paul. :)

[Chopper Reid]

We here in Australia are extremely fortunate to have a number of great instructors who have gone through instructing schools. These schools were set up by our governing body ASRA, a body that included our most experienced and senior gyro members so we do have some uniformity in training plus most instructors have modern gyros that produce good performance two up. All instructors have to reach certain standards and gyro's have to be built to guidelines [ Two place gyro's]. We also have airports that have very little traffic and some instructors have access or own private strips that have no traffic at all. Because we do have a huge amount of open land out here, the strips are usually long and wide.
In my case, I was very fortunate to have two of the best instructors in the land instucting me at a private strip on private property. As well, due to the property's location being reasonably close to a couple of other very experienced gyro pilots, they would come down for the social nights around the camp fire and I learned a lot just listening and asking questions.
The biggest plus was that I learnt in a gyro nicknamed "Twitchy " which was totally manual, hand prop to start the engine, hand start the rotors and hand stop the same. Now I know that most of you will disagree with me but everyone who learnt to fly that gyro, really learnt how to fly and fly precisely.Having a FW licence I tended to overcontroll "Twitchy" and found that flying up and down the strip [with the instructor at all times] taught me to smooth my controll inputs and drove the tendency to PIO right out of me so that when we got to normal circuits, I had an enjoyable time and was ready to learn the next critical phase of gyro flying, " power off landing's. "
I know i'm geting off the thread but having to learn to hand start and stop the rotors was the best training one could have.

[Aussie_Paul]

This is the pic of Graeme after he realised that flying a circuit is much colder than flying for 30 seconds along the strip and having to taxy back and start again!!!!! :D

Aussie Paul. :)

[mcbirdman]

Hi Tim,

Yes that is what I am getting at for my particular situation. I am under the impression that with the stance it sits on it's landing gear that I just have to push forward on the nose a little to let the tail up, and then pull back and it is gone. It is like the flight attitude for takeoff is slatnted back to spin those blades up quickly and it will quickly proceed to the next step of flight...leaving the runway.

I am trying to be straight out. My concern is that running fast enough down the runway to lift the tail is fast enough to lift the machine. If I get the tail off and somehow start to drift as I am trying to get used to the amount of rudder pressure or tail wheel steering during the portion it is on the ground at high/low speed..... I think it is a vulnerable time that should either just be flown through or don't lift the tail. And yet, I think when I do steps leading up to that I think I will just get used to it because I plan on doing much taxing.

I just feel, at least right now, that I would be better off pointing the nose where I want it to go because it it pulling me there instead of cutting power and just rolling down or off the runway. I know it will become more clear in the near future. Thanks. jtm

[ventana7]

Tim et al,

I learned here in Oz motly with Alan Wardel and a few hours with Paul, then went back to the US and finsihed my training with Terry at AAI. Not owning my own machine my transition was from flying with an instr in a RAF or modified RAF to the same machine without an instr-- obviously this is an easy transition and it was exactly like my C172 training in FW. It was no dramas but I am aware that other than in a place like AAI where they allow student to solo in the instrs machine this is not possible. Nevertheless it is preferable.

Tim I understand everything in your last post about transitioning on calm days, wide runways, more landings and t/o per minute etc. I still think the criteria should be SAFETY not more t/o per minute. There is no way a strip hop is safer than flying at altitude. This is especially true if as in most cases the student did not solo in the instrs machine and is now flying his for the first time.
Tim - answer one question - do you think a strip hop is safer or less safe for a students first solo flight-- keep in mind this is probably his first solo and first flight in his machine.

I think less safe for all the reasons YOU mentioned about gyros being so different, etc.


I have only been thru my own training not trained others so I may be off base but here is my theory.

To me it seems unless you can solo in the instrs machine which may be unlikely the progression should be what I think Paul and Doug described.
1. Adequate hours of dual training including first airwork, then circuits and perhaps strip hops last.

2. Transition to solo circuits in instrs machine if possible and if instr is not willing then proceed directly to step 3.

3. Instructor flying solo in students machine to test it out- this to me is the ONLY time strip hops make sense- maybe at 10-20 feet so a catastrophic failure has a fall from 10 feet not 500.

4. Student soloing his machine in circuits where he has time to learn his machine and relax flying at altitude for all the reasons I described previously.

5. Maybe after the student has practiced extensive circuits with the more relaxed flying between stressful takeoff and stressful landing then he can maximize his training with strip hops giving more t/o and landings per minute.

Rob

[ventana7]

Paul,

Thanks for the pics and your input.

Rob

[pwendell]

Rob,

I strongly agree with you on this. Like you, I feel doing crow hops places the pilot constantly in the most dangerous areas of flight in an unfamiliar machine. Even quite small changes in the handling charecteristics of a gyro can be disturbing to a student. (It took me several circuits to adjust to the differences between one Modified RAF and another when I was learning landings. Changing to a single seater will be a much bigger transition, which I hope to make soon.) One of the most important ingredients of a safe landing is a stabilized approach. This requires good pitch/airspeed control and a feel for the throttle response of the aircraft. It seems to me that the ideal first solo mission in an unfamiliar aircraft might be something like the following:

1. Make a normal takeoff and enter the pattern.
2. On the first circuits fly a normal pattern but level off 50 ft above the runway and go around. This is to allow the student to get a feel for the proper pitch, speed and angle of decent before attempting to land for the first time. (the student will, of course, have decided with his instructor before hand what speed and power settings to use on final).
3. Once the student is comfortable making a stabilized approach, he can continue all the way to touchdown.

I think this approach might really help to lower the student's workload on that first, anxiety filled landing.

Of course I am not instructor, so there might be some important pedagogical principle that I'm violating.

[ventana7]

Paul,
Your suggestions make great sense.

I know for me in fixed wings even after 500 hours if I have a good stable approach I have a good landing and if I have a bad approach the landing while still safe is never quite as nice.

Rob

[Brent_Brown]

I did my test flight for my twp place at a airport with 6000" runways. If you have a place like this then takeoff fly it down the runway at 50 mph and do a landing with lots of room at the end. I was luckly this place was the best for test flight the taxi way was there and the owner let me fly it back if we had no winds. I got into a downwind landing one day and almost lost it but that is for around the fire.

[Ted Eggleston]

I remember in my early stages of FW training, my instructor constantly telling me I was "behind the aircraft". There I was on downwind, trying to lose airspeed, turn onto base at 45 degrees to the end of the strip, maintain the correct altitude and heading, give the correct radio call, search for other traffic, set stage 1 flap, turn base, adjust throttle, set trim and maintain a target point, thinking I'll never get this right when the instructor decided that we would gain some height and rehearse phantom landings at 4500'. The wind was similar to the lower levels, except I didn't have to fight the wind shear at 25' above ground level on approach, that we were experiencing during that week.

The improvement I made during the next hour was simply dramatic. I gained confidence in making the aircraft respond to my controls, rather than being forced the make control inputs. Even though I was completing the same operational movements as I would have had to at the actual circuit level, my mental work load halved. The more confident I became in the natural behaviour of the aircraft, the more I relaxed and the more relaxed I became, the better my timing became.

After the normal debriefing that day, my instructor said "Don't be so hard on yourself, all students are behind the aircraft". The point here is, I believe that the same would be true with Gyro's. Asking a student to understand the complexity of the behaviour of a gyro by crow hopping, in the early stages of training adds significantly to the mental workload.

And, Paul, if you're reading this, its a hint for next year.

[birdy]

I reckon the students attitude should have some bearing on how best to transition form taxi runs to Fly'n".
Especialy if the student is scared of hights,and is trained in an enclosed machine and solo'n in an open one.
I know when I first soloed my intention was to do a circuit,but when I left the ground and there wasn't any machine in sight,the fear factor cut in and I chopped power and landed at the end of the strip.I reckon if I'd commited to go'n round there would have been another bent gyro to talk about.
Fear isn't something you can fight or control,you can only confrount it and GRADUALEY beat it,and hops are the safest way to do so.

Yes,there are some gyronaughts that are scared of hights. :rolleyes:

[barnstorm2]

I am afraid of heights. So is one of the guys in my chapter.

[Aussie_Paul]

I find that the wondefull gift of "people" skills is one of the most important skills an instructor can have. To be able to "read" the students personalilty is critical to a students productivity.

The "not so brave" student needs encouragement at the right time, and the "cocky" student needs the bar lifted to the next level so that the "cocky" student makes a fool of himself. :eek: That is so much more productive than the instructor making a fool of the student!!!!!!!!! :D

Barnstorm, I have a fear of heights!!!!!! :eek:

I have found that strip runs for a while, really help a student that has a fear of heights. It is amazing how quick a student can overcome that fear if not forced to fly at altitude too early. :cool:

Instructing is not a job to me, it is a passion for student productivilty!!!! :)

Aussie Paul. :)

[bones]

When i started again this year it had been quiet awhile since i had flown, so after a bit of glider work, i took the machine home to do hops after about 6 hrs it was feeling comfortable, so i fueled up and done a couple move hops at about 10' then on the third one i just didnt cut the throttle let it climb to about 700' flew a pattern for about 10 minutes, then started to do dummy runs up the strip starting at 100' and letting the air speed drop off till it started to sink abit then go round do it again, repeated that a few times then just went down to 50' then 25' then 15', just a bit at a time till it felt comfy, then when i decided it was time just done the same as before only at 5' and just let it settle for one the sweetest touch downs i can remember, promptly packed it up for about 4 hrs had coffee to let it settle in as to what had just happened, next time i took off iwas just doing circuits to practise landings, something that i still do, power on and off :D
Not sure if this will help anyone or not :rolleyes: , but i was bored :eek:

[Greg Mitchell]

Hello Rob,
10am in the morning I'm off to Cranbourne to spend some time in a single seat glider. Should be fun! On topic.....
I approached Eugene Reid (Pres, Australian Ultralight Federation) they call themselves Australian Recreational Flying or something like it, now, anyways, I wanted a descent long paved runway as another option to the beach. Thankfully Eugene has approved my request for safe venue options. I've put this same question of hops out to the OZ forum before and I am thinking much like you on this but I would clarify my position a little. Cranbourne is marginal and no way would I or some others consider it appropriate for hops. Taxiing up hill from both ends, two hills and a valley mid field, I'd be over the first hill in the valley, airbourne with a peak comming straight at me and all the other stuff to boot... pass. The beach is my best option and GeorgeTown paved runway my next best. If I was put in a position where by I had to solo out of Cranbourne, I suggest the safest solo flight, would be as you suggest, However, where one might have a beach 8kms long and 800 yards wide, at tide out, with firm packed sand, I can see the benefit of a series of hops, that could be executed without the fear of running out of strip, or dodging hills and cows. I too am concerned that to many gyros get bent on these solo hops and it probably comes down to discussing this in detail with your instructor and tailoring the approach to solo for you personally. My instructor and his Dad taught themselves the Benson way started in gliders, then into the VW direct drive, he forgot to hop and just flew a circuit, much to the disdain of his father.
Regards,
Mitch

[Aussie_Paul]

Hops were the only way to get a student going in a HTLM trainer. The visual reference to the ground helped with the overcontrolling that occured at altitude in the unstable trainers.

Now I agree with Doug. In a pitch stable aircraft s/level is the easy part. In a HTLM it is the most difficult part.

Aussie Paul. :)

[Ron R]

Just for the record, the airport I fly out of is 3500' long with water on both ends. I'm getting ready to transition from my trainers aircraft to my own. I've been doing LOTS of ground work, and even put on high lift blades, but the thought of a "hop" down the runway is pretty spooky. Just a high speed run down it, and you eat up ground fast. I plan to do just some lift offs and settles to feel out the craft, but to me it's WAY too short for any serious "hop". Any comments????Thanks! Ron R.

[Doug Riley]

Get a precise briefing from your instructor on how to do the transition. Do the transition work in his presence. Have him fly your craft before you lift it off, to set the trim spring and check everything else. Stay out of crosswinds, as well as any wind that's gusty or over 10 mph.

3500 ft. is plenty of runway length for short hops.

[Ron R]

Thanks for the reply Doug. My instructor can't any more, he moved to Arizona, so I'm out of touch. My first one doesn't have the time anymore for students, so I'm pretty much on my own. I'll do the hops!

[Doug Riley]

Ron: Couldn't you take your machine to Ron Menzie's and have him check it (and you) out? It would be a lot safer to do that. Well worth the trip to Arkansas.

Even a non-instructor, experienced gyronaut would be a great help. My advice is NOT to go it alone!

(This summer, I checked out the gyro one of my students had bought. It could easily have killed him had he tried to fly it as it was, even after he received instruction. The prop was grossly under-pitched and would only produce thrust at 25 mph or below, the rod end bearings were loose, the ASI didn't work and the trim spring was a mile out of adjustment. All these things were easily fixed and the machine flew sweetly once they were done, but it takes some experience to get a new craft dialed in.)

[Aussie_Paul]

Doug said,"(This summer, I checked out the gyro one of my students had bought. It could easily have killed him had he tried to fly it as it was, even after he received instruction. The prop was grossly under-pitched and would only produce thrust at 25 mph or below, the rod end bearings were loose, the ASI didn't work and the trim spring was a mile out of adjustment. All these things were easily fixed and the machine flew sweetly once they were done, but it takes some experience to get a new craft dialed in.)"

Aussie Paul. :)

[Texas Armadillo]

My new gyro (Elite 3203) has about 6 or so hours on it (I need to look at the EIS timer to find out for sure) These hours were flown by two experienced gyro pilots in our chapter, to tell me what adjustments to make to it before I fly it. The gyro is now balanced and stable and is ready for me.

I chose to build my own gyro instead of buying a prebuilt or used one (which would have been cheaper) for two reasons, I wanted the fun of "building my own" and I also wanted a personal understanding of what the machine is... I mean what it is built for, why does it fly, how strong it is, the reason why things are the way they are, etc.

It was as much an effort to assemble it as it was to make me aware of "what it was". Does that make sense? I wanted to know "what" I was flying. I am glad I chose that route, and my advice to other newbies is to do the same and then let qualified people check your work and tell you why what you did was good or bad.

I only have 5 hours total flying time in an Air Command Tandem and an RAF. I plan to drag my gyro to Caddo Mills where I will get more tandem training and then use their long runways to crow hop in the presence of the CFI with us using radios. I then plan to come back to the Houston area to do more crow hoping in the presence of experienced club members and again using radios. I'm obviously "new" to gyro piloting, but from my reading and conversation, straight crow hoping makes sense to me and it is what I plan to do for my first solo flights. My desire is to learn when to flair. (flare?) As I read these posts. I am further convinced this is the way I wish to learn to fly my gyro.

Thanx!
js

[Dewie]

Hi all
I?m the Graeme in Paul?s postings, and I agree with Paul and Birdy. I don?t think I could have done a circuit in an open framed Gyro first up. Crow hops and working up to full length strip flights was the way to go. It certainly made the first solo circuit much less stressful.
________
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[Ralph]

There are some aircraft, such as trikes, that I do not think can be crow-hopped safely. However, this is not true of gyros. Gyros land much more easily than any other aircraft and it is not a problem to lift off, transition to level flight and land. The runway Don and I used for training was only 2500 feet long, yet crow-hops were easily accomplished. Today we still do crow-hops when first testing new blades or any other major altertaion to the aircraft.

Ralph