Watson Tail Weight?

[Alan Coats]

The Watson tail on my Bee looks like it is well built, but, being used to R/C airplanes, it seems heavy to me. Can anyone tell me about what I should expect it to weigh?

I bolted the tail boom on today. Then I put a bathroom scale under each main wheel and lifted the tail with a fish scale. I added those three weights together, then added the weight of the rotors and hub bar. It looks like it will come in at around 250 pounds.

It took 20 pounds of pull on the fish scale to lift the tail wheel off the gound. Is that reasonable?

Thanks,
Alan

[KDOG]

Maybe some of the weight was the tail boom. To be honest I don't know what the Watson tail should weigh, but your overall weight seems right. Have you done youre hang test yet? With you in the seat it should tilt nose down 10 degrees, + or - 1 degree...

[KDOG]

Oh yeah, do you have a pic of your bee?

[Alan Coats]

KDOG,

I'll be out of town on business a few days, but when I get back I'll take some pics and post them.

I am waiting 'till I get the instrument pod made and mounted to do the hang test.

Did you see my post that I had my first lesson on Saturday? It was great!

Unfortunately, my instructor will be out of the state giving lessons for the next three weeks, so I'll have to wait for my next lesson. I'll have plenty of things to mess with on the Bee to keep me busy until I have had enough training to take it out to the airport.

Alan

[KDOG]

I can't wait till I start lessons... theres just noone around here.

[gyropilot]

The Watson tail on my Bee looks like it is well built, but, being used to R/C airplanes, it seems heavy to me. Can anyone tell me about what I should expect it to weigh?
Alan,

I believe the Watson tail weighs in at around 12 pounds.

Regards,

John L.

[Doug Riley]

John, that's right, if you don't fill all the fabric weave with resin.

[Bob]

KDOG...
Your not the only one ... no instrustors arround here eather , and I've looked for 3 years ! ... so I gave up and I'm teaching myself !
theres some good books on the subject ... even if most folk will tell ya your gunn'a kill yourself if you try to fly that thing without qualified instructions ! back in the 60's everyone learned to fly a gyro on their own ! .... whats so diferent now ? hehehehe !
Haing in there !

Bob...

[gyroparts]

KDOG and Bob, the other problem I found was that guys that weigh 200+ pounds will have a harder time finding an instructor. A lot of the two place machines fly ok with two 170# people, but not with 200#. Some instructors had weight limits of less than 200 for students.

[Dean_Dolph]

...even if most folk will tell ya your gunn'a kill yourself if you try to fly that thing without qualified instructions ! back in the 60's everyone learned to fly a gyro on their own ! .... whats so diferent now ? hehehehe !
Haing in there !

Bob...Different? Nothing, self trained pilots still have many more incidents percentage wise, both on the ground and in the air, than instructor trained pilots.

If it wasn't for the fact that self trainers are one of the reasons gyros acquired a bad reputation, I would say more power to self trainers. I fully believe in the Darwinian process. But since I like the fact that the gyros safety record has improved so dramatically since the two place trainer and instructors became available I can't support self training for those who expect to live a long life. The gyro community doesn't need to add to it's reputation as idiots and outlaws with more incidents as the result of self training.

Craig Wall where are you when we need you?

[gyroparts]

Anyone know of any instructors in the Las Vegas area? It is usually pretty easy to find a cheap flight to vegas from any part of the country.

[Doug Riley]

I wonder about the priorities and wisdom of people who refuse* to get training in today's environment. There is a huge difference between jumping into a powered machine to "see how she goes" and methodical self-training as Bensen taught it. Very few self-trainers have the patience to follow the Bensen syllabus. If they had THAT patience, they also would have the patience to travel to find an instructor; they might even have the sense to open their wallets to buy some lessons instead of risking their lives to save a couple of bucks.

Consider: I self-trained in the early 70's. Before I did my first pattern in my powered gyro, I had at least fifty hours of flight in towed gyrogliders (including a signoff by a CFI in same) and almost a year's worth of balancing, crow-hopping and runway flying in the powered machine. I also was part of an active PRA chapter, whose older and wiser members kept a sharp eye on me.

All in all, it was two years from the time I started gyrogliding to the time I first did a pattern. That preparation paid off. I didn't bust blades or anything else. What's more, my engine quit on my second day of flying at pattern altitude; with less preparation, I'm not sure the resulting landing in a snowy field would have gone as well as it did.

Many, many deaths resulted from self-teaching and the marginal designs of the past. The gyro fatalities in the 70's seemed to run a couple a month.

I think that, given the reasonable availability of training today, self-training involves an unwarranted risk and an unreasonable time commitment to do it right. Shortcuts increase the risk to a ridiculous level.

* Yes, the correct term is "refuse." There is a list of both AFI/BFI and CFI instructors in every PRA magazine. There must be a couple dozen of them. Many have high-powered machines and can haul anybody who will fit in the seat. Some even offer lodging to you if you've come a distance. Airline rates are cheap, and driving is still cheap even with today's gas prices. Travel expenses are trivial compared to the cost of your machine, to say nothing of the cost of a serious or fatal crash.

If you are not getting instruction because you'd have to go out of state to get it, you are REFUSING to train. That, to me, shows a lack of serious commitment to this activity that is not going to serve you well if you stay in aviation. IF you and your machine survive the self-training.

[martylunsford@h]

I understand everyone's insistance that a pilot must be trained to fly a gyro, and I fully plan to take some gyro lessons before flying my Bee. Does anyone know how much time it would take a fixed wing pilot to transition to a gyro? I'm sure there is a broad range depending on the skill of the pilot, but in my particular case, I soloed a 152 at 5 hours. I got my Private Pilot's license at 40.6 hours (My last hour of flying to meet the 40 hour minimum was actually the trip to the examiner's airport). I'm not trying to boast, and I'm definitely not overconfident, I just love flying and I pick up on this stuff really fast. I'm not going to risk my life flying a gyro with no training (I have 3 kids), but I'm just wondering how much training is typical for a fixed wing pilot transitioning to gyros? :confused:

[Doug Riley]

In my experience, 4-10 hours to the point where I will sign them off to begin practice on their own machines. The slower and draggier the FW plane they've flown, the easier the transition. A Quicksilver or similar 3-axis U.L. plane is probably the closest match to a gyro. A light taildragger like a Cub might be next closest.

The basic control movements are similar in FW and in a stable gyro. (Unstable gyros are another story.) However, even a stable gyro has some lag and other unfamiliar characteristics that you must work through. A good instructor wants to see not only that you can make it around the patch in one piece, but that you have built up some reserve skill to use when things get hairy -- unxpected turbulence, an unfamiliar field, sudden appearance of closing traffic, engine out, etc. This requires you to develop reflexes, which takes a few hours at least.

[Bob]

Doug and Dean !

I can apreciate your view points realy I can , but you need to realise not all of us are made out of money ! ... if Money wasn't a problem Doug I'ed hop on a plane and do what you sujested, infact i'ed have done it 3 years ago... so sense I cannot hop on a Plane, something I have never done because I cannot afford to, its not even a remote option... and Refuse is a word you use when there is a choice , not when there is NO CHOICE. you asume others have the amount of money you do and therefore they could actually do the things you sujest... the only way I could afford the extreamily high price of instructions from a CFI of BFI would be to rob a bank or something .... My family and I live on arround $15000.00 a year... how long has it been sense you tried to live on that amount ? don't think for a second that I wouldn't take the lessons if I could... I simply cannot afford them, Your calling me stupid for saveing a few pennies
when in reality those pennies may well save my life .... I DON"T have the Pennies ! .... Even if I did have the money there are no instructors within 100 miles that I am aware of....and I have looked ! I want a ride in a 2 place gyro , I need to feel what its like.... I KNOW THAT ! thats why I know the LIST of instructors you refure to are not up to date, every sense the FAA ruleing instructors are harder to find than a needle in a haystack !
and you say Airline rates are cheep ? what world do you live in for hevons sake ?
Seeing that you are a flight instructor I can understand why you say its so cheep....and also why its so very important to get lessons even when you yourself accomplished the same task yourself years earlier... 2 years is fast ! so far I have 3 years running teaching myself to fly the gyro and I have seen one foot of air under the wheels once, that is all.
as for not going out of the state for lessons, that realy does show your ignorance in not knowing the siduation. before you make up your mind on who is Refuseing instructions and who isn't, consider some of the people out there may not be as afulant as you,may not be as smart as you,or as opinionated, so don't call them stupid or tell them they are Refuseing Instructions if they don't drop a measily two grand on instructions ...which you'ed be getting sense your a instructor , I quote " In my Experience, 4-10 hours to the point where I will sign them off" Not only is that in bad taste, but its down right dishonnest, You have a right to your opinion, and you may well believe yourself in what your saying it true and honnest to the bone , but don't try to scare people into getting instructions to line your pockets with silver, thats not right ! take Dean's atitude " its natures way of cleaning up the gean pool! "... the Gyro Reputation WILL survive even a dozen more gyro-related-Deaths... maybe even a few more than that!

Now while Dean is all worried about me going out and killing myself and giveing "Gyros a bad name" I can simpithise with that.
but there isn't a whole lot I can do about that is there ? except learn the best I can !... and I have been doing it the way benson tought... I doubt seriously I will do it for as long as he said to but I will practice each step till I am ready, and that is for me to deside not some instructor !
....
You guys have a right to your opinion , each to their own ! just remember I have that same right , i'll leave it at that and let it die
C'ya
Bob.....

[Ralph]

I am writing this "inspired" by Bob's post but it is not a reply! Bob has clearly made up his mind about lots of things and there is no point in starting a senseless argument. However, as someone who is NOT a flight instructor, there are a few perspectives that I would like to share since this is imbedded among the Gyrobee topics.

(1) Most people over-estimate the cost of flight instruction. Given Doug's 4-10 hour estimate and the rates charged by many BFI's, we are talking about spending $500-$1,000 plus the cost of airfair, travel by car, or gas for the motorcycle. Add in anything from camping at the airport to a five-star hotel. If you are not ready in 10 hours, it will obviously cost more, but that is because you ARE NOT READY to solo. Students who require more pre-solo instruction can and do make good pilots, but they also are the ones who can benefit most from the additional instruction.

(2) Most people under-estimate the cost of self-instruction. About 10 years ago, Paul Abbott and I ran a safety survey in the magazine that looked, among other things, at the consequences of self-instruction. Here are a few points worth noting:

(a) It takes a lot more time to do it right. Those who pushed the envelope were not in the survey because they were dead.

(b) MOST pilots trashed at least one set of blades and replacing those blades costs more than most would have spent on instruction.

(c) The medical costs for "minor" injuries can make blade replacemnt look trivial, especially if you don't have health insurance.

(d) Teaching yourself is almost certainly going to be more stressful (even occasionally terrifying). How about the stress on spouses and "significant others"?

(3) Flight instruction is a form of insurance. On economic grounds alone, the tighter your flying budget, the more you need it!

Finally, something that I hope will be taken in the spirit in which it is intended. Countless times over the years I have seen budget limitations used as an excuse for cutting corners in construction and avoiding flight instruction. Flying a small gyro is nothing compared to a certificated aircraft but it is NOT trivial in terms of costs. Building or buying a machine is just part of the total cost package and you have to be prepared to evaluate whether, at this time in your life, you can afford to fly. If your budget is tight, find a partner and share the costs. You can save enough on construction alone to pay for the flight instruction!

Ralph

[scottessex]

Bob, aviation is not a sport to try to save pennies in, if you can't afford it, don't do it. Otherwise you will be cutting corners, and you will wish you would have spent that money when something catastrophic happens.
Don't throw common sense out the window on this one.
You can jump off your roof with an umbrella, a dozen times, this won't make you a skydiver.

[Brian Jackson]

Ralph,
Excellent post. When you break it down like you did, instruction really is the cheaper alternative. Doug Riley mentioned in another post about the amazing number of hours it takes to do the Bensen self-training route. I wonder what the cost in fuel alone at $2.25/gal. during this tedious 2-year or so process would be, versus 10 hours with an instructor.

Brian Jackson

[Low'nSlow]

..." In my Experience, 4-10 hours to the point where I will sign them off" Not only is that in bad taste, but its down right dishonnest, You have a right to your opinion, and you may well believe yourself in what your saying it true and honnest to the bone , but don't try to scare people into getting instructions to line your pockets with silver, thats not right !...
Bob, Doug's comments are neither in bad taste or dishonest and reading your ignorant attempt to paint them so is just sad. Do you think flying is a right or something?!? If you don't have the money or sense to get training you should take up a hobbie/sport you CAN afford. Have you considered RC flying?

[Brent_Brown]

Bob, Bob , Bob

[Doug Riley]

I will let most of what Bob said stand on its own merits. The "line your pockets" crap, however, deserves a response.

I have run a gyro supply and instruction company for 17 years. In that time, I have never taken any pay -- no salary, no bonus, no dividend, zip. I built a few parts for my own gyros out of the scratched stock that I wouldn't send to customers. Period. I'm not a dealer for any brand of gyro, so I don't get sales out of the lesson biz, either.

Instructing in my northern climate is a losing proposition. I do it because it's personally rewarding to get out and fly and share what I know. I want very much to get a cohort of properly-trained and educated pilots out there to help overcome the horrendous reputation that gyros have. All of us who fly gyros suffer as a result of that reputation.

I am opinionated as hell about my friends dying. If it take a little tough love to wake people up, so be it. Hope it works.

[Alan Coats]

Not to hijack my own thread, but I weighed my Watson tail, tail boom, and tail wheel. The assembly came to 18 pounds. The StarBee tail weighs an ounce or two more.

Alan

[gyroblackwell]

Way to go alan !!! take back the thread and ask the others to start a new thread labeled "Training..... who.... me?"

10 to 12 pounds for a total tail is about the average. A set of Ultra-light feathers will put you at 8-10 depending on the covering. But then you have to worry about "re-covering" at some point in time.

I built a tail with foam covered by an aluminum skin. still ends up in the 10-11 pound range, but I like the fact that the foam helps keep the skin from getting dented during day-to-day use.

[Brian Jackson]

Alan,

I'm guessing that's the actual weight on the tailwheel? If so, do you have any numbers for the empennage itself?

[Alan Coats]

That is the actual weight of the assembly as described, removed from the rest of the airframe and placed on scales.

Alan