What do I unlearn?

[Sir Real]

I am a fixed wing pilot. I practice standard maneuvers a lot. Steep turns, emergency landings, engine outs, various types of standard stalls. Nothing aerobatic, no spins. This gives me a set of reflexes to handle these basic emergencies (or at least I hope so).

In order to learn to fly gyros, which of these reflexes do I need to unlearn?

[Paul_Zurawski]

Not so much as unlearning those reflexes, but of learning new reflexes for a new machine. When your in a fixed wing, have the mindset your in a fixed wing, and flying a rotary wing, fly with that mindset and reflexes.

[ckurz7000]

The one reflex you definitely will have to unlearn ist to push the stick forward briskly when your airspeed gets low. FW pilots do this to prevent a stall. In a gyro you don't stall, and the rapid fore movement of the stick will unload the rotor, which is entirely undesirable.

When cruising along at normal speeds, there is little difference between a gyro and a FW. The controls act in a way that's compatible and expected between the two categories of aircraft. Most differences occur at the low end of the speed envelope and on the ground with turning rotor. There you'll have to learn a whole new set of reflexes.

Greetings, -- Chris.

[barnstorm2]

In order to learn to fly gyros, which of these reflexes do I need to unlearn?

That is a great question.

I have heard a number of gyro CFI talk about this.

Having transitioned from GYROs to FW I don't know if I am qualified to answer this question but I can share what I found out in the reverse.

When it comes to all gyros but especially bunt-o-matic gyros, the FW pilot needs to remove any knee-jerk tendencies they have when it comes to pushing the stick quickly forward, especially in a situation that might enduce low-G or rotor unloading.

Fixed Wing pilots seem to have trouble with, or after training forget, good rotor management, especially when taxiing and take off.

FW pilots tend to want to throttle up too quickly and forget about making sure the Rotor RPM is sufficient to handle the power being supplied for takeoff.

FW pilots that are used to something called a "glide ratio" will have to learn about steep engine out descents. ;)

.

[Walter]

I can think of an important one: full stick back before your start roll. There was a serious accident because a FW pilot, after pre-rotation, pulled the stick after having accelerated...
But as mentioned by Paul above, a new mindset and reflexes are needed.

[Vance]

When I read the NTSB reports on gyroplane accidents and the pilots report on what happened I am surprised by people imagining that the rudder controls the direction of flight. I feel that this is flawed thinking in a fixed wing, but more so with a gyroplane.

In my opinion if you are not where you want to be over the runway you manage that with the cyclic and if you are not aligned with the runway you control that with the rudder or simply land into the wind.

I feel that the flair is different in a gyroplane because they don’t stall so you can keep coming back with the stick.

I feel that the flight is not over until the rotor has stopped.

Part of the value I have found in instruction is that the CFI can often identify the bad habits before they become problematic.

Thank you, Vance

[WaspAir]

You may have to expand your notion of "coordinated" flight. With no ailerons, you don't have adverse yaw from dipping one aileron down and pulling the other up. You use the rudder as necessary to control yaw, but it's not the same relationship that one finds in a fixed wing aircraft.

Sadly, for some airplane pilots, there's nothing to unlearn because they never really learned what their feet were for in the first place. But if you have habits involving moving rudder and aileron together as a coordinated physical motion of your hands and feet, you'll have to adjust to a new situation. If you've flown anything with a yaw string (gliders, for example) it is likely to help.

[jcarleto]

When I transitioned from FW to gyro, I had the following issues:

1. Take-off procedure is a completely different animal. Pushing forward instead of back on the stick was completely unnatural. This includes the slow application of power letting the blades ramp up. It is a little bit like flying a FW with a turbo-charged engine and applying power gradually so as not to outrun the turbine, but much more protracted and critical.

2. Staying off the rudders in turns was a bit odd.

3. Getting my "eyes right" for landing was very tough. I was not used to looking as far down the runway, and my years of flying a Bonanza worked against me. I had a lot of trouble with my lateral vision leveling me at 5 feet (Bonanza height) instead of 2 feet, as was appropriate for the gyro. I still can't "look at the horizon" as was recommended. I can't get myself to "look at the end of the runway," either. What I can do is look a few hundred feet ahead of me, and that seems to be enough to override the input from the lateral vision I relied on in fixed-wing aircraft.

4. Rotor control in wind is important, and wasn't exactly intuitive. Most FW pilots have had to practice taxiing in wind with different aileron and elevator positioning, but few are good at it, and most nose-wheel pilots don't bother unless the wind is howling. You can't get away with that with a spinning rotor. Keeping it spinning is also key, both for safety and with regard to wind direction.

5. The "downwind turn" thing, where you turn under the rotor with your rudder pedals and lose your forward airspeed, is a real surprise the first time you do it. I recommend practicing this REALLY high in the air. Frankly, I didn't believe it was real the first time I read about it on the forum, having been preached to for years from FW instructors about "flying in the block of air." Turns out you can change air blocks in a gyro. Who knew?

6. The idea that you can pull the gyro out of the air with full throttle by applying overzealous back-stick was a surprise as well. Pushing the nose slightly down to go up was also a bit odd.

7. Lucky #7 for me was that "wind is the enemy." Happily, I found that this is false in a gyro.

Certainly there were more, but these were the issues that plagued me the most.

[WaspAir]

5. The "downwind turn" thing, where you turn under the rotor with your rudder pedals and lose your forward airspeed, is a real surprise the first time you do it. I recommend practicing this REALLY high in the air. Frankly, I didn't believe it was real the first time I read about it on the forum, having been preached to for years from FW instructors about "flying in the block of air." Turns out you can change air blocks in a gyro. Who knew?

Your FW instructors were assuming coordinated flight, and they're still correct if that's what you do. If you stomp the pedal to skid around in a FW you'll lose airspeed, too.

[jcarleto]

Your FW instructors were assuming coordinated flight, and they're still correct if that's what you do. If you stomp the pedal to skid around in a FW you'll lose airspeed, too.

No argument.

However, I've never had a FW drop out of the sky with me from a full rudder turn downwind. I have surprised myself a few times in a tight pattern on a windy day in the gyro. Granted, one could initiate a high-speed stall that way in a FW, but that's a different discussion.

[Vance]

When I transitioned from FW to gyro, I had the following issues:

2. Staying off the rudders in turns was a bit odd.

5. The "downwind turn" thing, where you turn under the rotor with your rudder pedals and lose your forward airspeed, is a real surprise the first time you do it. I recommend practicing this REALLY high in the air. Frankly, I didn't believe it was real the first time I read about it on the forum, having been preached to for years from FW instructors about "flying in the block of air." Turns out you can change air blocks in a gyro. Who knew?



Hello Jon,

Why do you turn with the rudder pedals?

At Santa Paula I have noticed fixed wing pilots seem to use the rudder pedals to hasten their descent, they call it crabbing or slipping.

I have noticed in the Predator that when I induce adverse yaw I hasten the descent in the same way.

How is this different in a fixed wing?

How is a downwind turn different in a fixed wing?

Thank you, Vance

[ckurz7000]

Do I sense another "downwind turn" debate coming on ?!?!?!?

BTW, you can fly behind the power curve in a FW, too, and have to drop the nose first before going up again. That's the same as in a gyro.

-- Chris.

[barnstorm2]

I have noticed in the Predator that when I induce adverse yaw I hasten the descent in the same way.

How is this different in a fixed wing?



In a gyro, cross controls have no danger of leading to a spin, and so far as I know, a "flat turn" in a gyro is of little consequence.

Though, like a fixed wing, you don't want to enter an attitude that you don't have the rudder authority to get out of.

.

[jcarleto]

Hello Jon,
Why do you turn with the rudder pedals?
At Santa Paula I have noticed fixed wing pilots seem to use the rudder pedals to hasten their descent, they call it crabbing.
I have noticed in the Predator that when I induce adverse yaw I hasten the descent in the same way.
How is this different in a fixed wing?
How is a downwind turn different in a fixed wing?

I turn with my rudder pedals sometimes because it is fun and you can get a really tight turn in a gyro that way. It is also a hard habit to break from some FW aircraft I have flown that are somewhat rudder-intensive. It isn't a particularly good habit for gyros, but it isn't particularly unsafe as long as you have some altitude.

Crabbing with a FW is a different issue. I think they are actually talking about a "slip." Wing down into the wind and straighten or crab (different maneuvers with similar intent) the plane with opposite rudder. It is as close to a controlled vertical descent as you can get with a FW. Highly effective.

I don't think a rudder turn downwind is as much physically different with a FW as it is practically different. Your speed to rudder ratio, for lack of a better term, is higher in a FW, so you really can't turn sharp enough with just your rudders to get quite the same effect as flipping the aircraft 180 degrees under the rotor with gyro rudders. Because you can skid along with an unbalanced rudder-only turn in a FW, you will get a similar airspeed loss effect, but you can't just "flip around" and have the wind at your back. Part of that is FW speed, and part is that the dynamics of a FW...especially a tractor...make it difficult to turn as unbalanced as that. Since the FW has more tendency toward balanced turns (I hope I haven't opened a can of worms here), the effect is minimal, compared to a gyro.

Example:

In the GyRonimo, I can and have flown into a 20K headwind on takeoff. I typically climb out at 35K. I need 20K to maintain altitude. Because there are nothing but tall trees surrounding the runway for several hundred yards in all directions of my home airport, I frequently fly a tight pattern...almost back down the runway...if nobody else is in the area (a frequent situation).

I have made sharp rudder-only turns through crosswind to downwind on some occasions with the above conditions. The result being my airspeed is instantly 15K, though I am still at full throttle, and I am heading down. As long as you allow the nose to seek slightly down and recover your airspeed patiently, all is well. This assumes one had the good sense to gather plenty of altitude before attempting such an unbalanced procedure. If one was fool enough to try this at low altitude, one might easily find a tree before recovering the airspeed.

In a FW, if you wanted a tight turn, you'd probably always go with a balanced turn. I generally don't bother with a skid in a FW other than for practice. It certainly isn't a way to do a tight turn.

[MichaelBurton]

I would agree with most of the comments about rotor control. I also noted some other interesting things during my transition from FW to FW + Gyro. The gyro slows much more quickly in a flair. Each time I would fly my airplane and then the gyro I would land the gyro flat and fast.

Once I landed the gyro with a bit of a side load and flat. This resulted in the gyro walking on the wheels(left wheel then front then right then front then left...) until I added power and lifted off the runway.

I constantly had problems with a little wiggle on departure. I needed to learn about the extra aerodynamics from translational lift and the forces acting due to gyroscopic action. I also needed time to get the reaction time programed into my brain.

Once I got to the point where I thought I knew how to fly the gyro I began expanding my flying envelope. At first I thought everyone liked to see what the gyro could do. I discovered that many people regard flying as dangerous, like playing with dynamite, and that my maneuvers caused concern. I learned to practice in relative obscurity to prevent this problem.

I learned that airports are not always friendly to gyros. I took a student pilot to the local towered airport to do the required 3 solo TO/LD. When he called the tower he was told that that would not be allowed and that the gyro had been restricted form access to the traffic pattern due to noise. A quick call to the FSDO and the airport manager resolved the issue.

There is more but this is getting to be a story so...

[GrantR]

Downwind vs upwind makes no difference. If you make a turn from upwind to downwind you can maintain a constant airspeed with no reduction in performance. The only difference will be your groundspeed. If you have a 30 mph wind and your gyro travels 50mph your ground speed will increase from 20mph upwind to 80mph downwind.

If you were climbing out at 500fpm on your upwind leg you are going to perceive that your climb rate is very good because your climb angle will be much steeper because in a minute’s time you will have only covered .33 miles of the surface below you to gain 500 feet. Now when you want to climb the same downwind you will perceive the gyro is barely or not climbing at all because to gain 500 feet you will cover 1.33 miles of surface below you.

See my chart! So upwind if you climb at 500fpm you will gain 2015 feet in 1.33 miles of ground cover. Downwind only 500 feet.

You may perceive losing altitude after turning downwind but in reality you will be still climbing at the same rate. It will appear that you are not due to the fact that you are traveling 60 mph faster downwind.

[Redbaron]

Are you talking about "minumum controllable airspeed"? In my fixed wing training in the 172/182 you had to fly along with full or near full power, flaps down, standing on the tail, slow as you could get with the stall horn blowing! Not climbing or descending. A little more pull on the stick and over the nose goes, stomach in your mouth! Keep thy airspeed up or the ground will smit thee:
I think bensen called it "dragging the machine down" ? Not to confuse anyone here but if you do the same thing in a gyro you will start descending! Gyros won't stall!

:yo:

Do I sense another "downwind turn" debate coming on ?!?!?!?

BTW, you can fly behind the power curve in a FW, too, and have to drop the nose first before going up again. That's the same as in a gyro.

-- Chris.

[GrantR]

Jon,

What you described is not wind but you making a turn too tight. Think about: To turn and not lose altitude you have to add power and elevator since your tilting your lift vector. Applies to both gyro and fixed wing. When you are turning you are getting behind the power curve as the gyro does not have the horses to push you around a turn that tight. So you add back stick to compensate to maintain altitude at the expense of airspeed.

[MichaelBurton]

The thing is in a gyro you can turn fast enough that the direction of travel in the wind is changed. If I am facing into the wind and do an instant 180 I will be traveling backward at my original velocity and that will cause a big performance change. If you don't believe then then just give it a try. It is the same problem you get in a FW with a wind shear.

As far as flying at the same airspeed is concerned then you are correct it is the same into or with the wind just the ground speed and perception changes.

[jcarleto]

Downwind vs upwind makes no difference.
What you described is not wind but you making a turn too tight.

Sounds like me before I flew a gyro. :D

It is important to note at this point that I am no expert. I am expressing only my opinions as a rank newbie to the sport and my own personal observations.

And yes, I am talking about an unbalanced or "too tight" turn. Something that is mostly impossible to recreate in a FW, unless you were in a twin and insane enough to be trying to create a flat spin. If you fly balanced, then I agree that upwind and downwind are the same. It is much safer to always fly balanced.

However, I challenge you to wait for your next windy day lesson with Steve McGowan, and ask him to demonstrate a "too sharp" unbalanced rudder turn to downwind at or about best climb speed and see what happens to the gyro. Then we'll talk.

[Redbaron]

How fast do you have to go to swap ends? I wouldn't wanna try this at high speed, sounds scary! :wacko:

The thing is in a gyro you can turn fast enough that the direction of travel in the wind is changed. If I am facing into the wind and do an instant 180 I will be traveling backward at my original velocity and that will cause a big performance change. If you don't believe then then just give it a try.

As far as flying at the same airspeed is concerned then you are correct it is the same into or with the wind just the ground speed and perception changes.

[MichaelBurton]

You need to be slow or it does not work well. Less than 40 mph usually. The slower you are going the faster you can turn. At 5 or 10 MPH you can spin like a top.

[MichaelBurton]

There is a video with rotor-head and myself taken during a training session where we make this turn. He has a link to it on his web site. rotor-head site (http://www.rotor-head.com/Rotor-Head/Home.html) I looked for the video but it is gone so. I think there is a copy on this forum.

[GrantR]

Jon,

I think we are in agreement. Heck no you cant do that in a fixed wing! Of course on a windy day the wind does not flow smoothly due to various reasons so all the numbers I posted are just for reference purposes. Up and down draft and turbulence all strongly affect the outcome.

However, I challenge you to wait for your next windy day lesson with Steve McGowan, and ask him to demonstrate a "too sharp" unbalanced rudder turn to downwind at or about best climb speed and see what happens to the gyro. Then we'll talk.

The gyro will lose Airspeed and altitude because it takes a lot of energy to change directions that fast and be able to maintain altitude. The gyro does not have enough power to do this without losing altitude. You would have to have probably more than a 1 to 1 thrust to weight ratio to pull it off. In a normal “balanced” turn the gyro would maintain airspeed and altitude because there is enough reserve power to keep it aloft.

[Sir Real]

That's beautiful info. Thanks to all of you, especially Jon & Michael. Looks like one of the habits I'll have to break (aside from pushing forward quickly to gain airspeed) is my love of the aforementioned hard forward slip, full right rudder & left wing down, 1500+ FPM descent (I still tend to be high on final & that helps get me down). But I suspect a gyro vertical descent would be as good or better.

Now I just need to drop about 5o lbs so I can get some training...

[EI-GYRO]

Now I just need to drop about 5o lbs so I can get some training...

Just cut a leg off. It'll be worth it. :)

[Walter]

Looks like one of the habits I'll have to break (aside from pushing forward quickly to gain airspeed) is my love of the aforementioned hard forward slip, full right rudder & left wing down, 1500+ FPM descent (I still tend to be high on final & that helps get me down). But I suspect a gyro vertical descent would be as good or better.

I like to slip in FW, and still find it useful in gyros when on low (and hot) final, since then it is too late for a vertical descent. And the slip need not be extreme, just enough for fine tuning when power/speed are at the limit for further correction of the glideslope. I find slipping in a gyro fun and effective. Also done almost unconsciously with strong crosswinds.

[Glenn_K]

Great thread!
This info is going to come in really handy real soon.
:focus: