Air Command

[jeffnet]

Well after many years of going to do it I finally did. I bought a single seat Elite Air Command. I purchased it from a builder in NY. I was going to build one but could not pass up the price. It is new with only 6.5 hours on it. Selling due to health reasons. Now I must get flight lessons. Living in Ohio both Ed Alderfer and Bob Miller are not doing flight instruction at this time. I might have to go to Dallas Tx, unless I find someone closer, any suggestions from the forum. I pick up the gyro next week, if I figure out how to post pictures I will do that. Jeff

[joeheli]

Congradulation on you new aircommand !! That is a really good machine. Now the only thing you need is be a certify pilot and you will enjoy it. What configuration the machine has?

[Brian Jackson]

I noticed there is a gentleman listed in the PRA directory named Robert Miller whom is a gyro flight instructor in Wellsville, Ohio. Not sure how far that is from Lodi, but certainly closer than Texas!

Cheers,
Brian Jackson

[barnstorm2]

Jeff,
Congratulations!

I live in Cincinnati ohio. Where in Ohio are you?
I took the majority of my lessons from Gary Goldsberry in Indy.

[jeffnet]

Barnstormer 2, I live in Medina south of Cleveland.

[jeffnet]

RotoPix, I spoke with Bob Miller and he has decided to stop training at this time, also the Air Command is in the stock configuration, just a single seat. I am a licensed pilot, but I know that you just don't go and fly a gyro without instruction. Thanks,

[GyroRon]

Is it a tall machine or does the seat look low to the ground???

[jeffnet]

GyroRon, it is low to the ground, does not have the upgrade. Some people say to get the upgrade some say it is up to you. I haven't decided yet. Any suggestions?

[gyromike]

Jeff,

The CLT conversion for the Air Command is a definite improvement.

One of our chapter members has a 582 Air Command CLT, and it handles turbulence much better than the older models.

I have been flying it lately to get it trimmed out for him, and I've never felt that I needed to reduce power, or do anything at all, to handle the turbulence.

[Rando]

Unless you are an experienced gyro pilot, GET THE UPGRADE! The British have banned the original Air Command, only the upgraded ones are legal. Does that tell you anything?

[GyroRon]

I think it is a no brainer! Do the upgrade no matter how good of a pilot you are. With the upgrade your far less likely to get hurt, without it your much more likely to get hurt. There is not much good reason to leave it a lowrider, and the upgrade kit isn't that expensive. I say DO IT!!!

[Udi]

Is that the 503 Air Command that was on eBay for $10K+?

If it is, than you would also want to (actually have to) flip the engine right side up.

Udi

[jeffnet]

Udi, yes it is the Air Command that was on ebay for 10k. Didn't pay that much. Why would you want to flip the engine upright, I thought that is how you installed this particular engine on the gyro. Jeff

[GyroRon]

Jeff let me cut to the chase... Your gyro as is can be flown as is.

BUT....

Not adding the CLT kit to the gyro means that the gyro will still have a high trustline and under certain circumstances the gyro can do a PPO which is commonly refered to as a buntover. A buntover is a unrecoverable event period. It is fatal and it is a real danger. There have been a nearly countless number of people that have Bunted over in gyros and are now dead, some low time student pilots... Some self trained low time pilots... some high time gyro pilots.... Etc.... Etc... In other words it can easily happen to YOU too.

The CLT kit will also make the gyro simply easier to fly just by the fact that the thrust of the engine is not trying to push the nose down or up or do anything else funky. On a CLT gyro, the engines thrust just pushes the gyro forwards. A easier and more stable gyro that won't buntover is a much better gyro for any gyro pilot period.

As for the engine being upside down on your gyro. You have to understand that when your gyro was designed, the designer used what I would call backyard engineering and decided it was important to have the weight on the gyro as low to the ground as possible, which makes a little sence, since the gyro is also a land vehicle till it is airborne and a lower center of gravity makes for more stable handling - ON THE GROUND ONLY!!! - .......... So the designer made it where the engine is installed upside down to help lower the C.G.

A Rotax will run upside down just fine. But..... It was not designed to be run upside down and the engine will not get enough oil to the crankshaft and rod end bearings when ran upside down. It will also tend to foul plugs much easier since all the goo in the engine will settle in the bottom of the engine - which is now the sparkplugs when installed upside down! - And last it makes the engine much harder to start because of the goo in the plugs.

The fix for the gyro is to flip the engine rightside up like it was intended to be used, and to also install the CLT upgrade kit from Aircommand.

And I am sure I will piss off some people with this last comment, but it is only my humble opinion... For the money the upgrade kit costs from Aircommand - Verses your life, I would say anyone still flying or thinking about flying a low rider aircommand is not making the right choice. It is just not worth the risk!!! How can any pilot say to himself that he will not and can not get behind in the flying of a aircraft??? No one can, and if you get behind while flying a HTL gyro.. there is a good chance you will bite the big one and end up six feet under. I say the upgrade is like cheap life insurance, just like I feel the BRS parachute systems are for fixed wing ultralights.

[Dean_Dolph]

Jeff, I just checked your profile and then checked out a map of Ohio and it looks like you are not too far away from Navarre.

Navarre is shown to be the home of PRA Chapter 19 on the PRA home page. I believe it would be helpful if you contacted that chapter and had them provide some guidance. There is an email address on the PRA web site under 'Local Chapters'.

Everyone here was where you are at one time and the quickest way to get up to speed is to join a PRA Chapter. Joining the PRA would also be good!

[Udi]

Jeff - I should have elaborated more on my first post. When you install the CLT kit, you would have to move the main wheels 6 inch back. This means the main gear struts upper supports would have to move from the mast to the engine support tube. This would not work, unless the engine is mounted right side up. This is the main reason you would have to flip the engine, but the other reasons that Ron has mentioned above are also correct.

Although I don't want to discourage you, you have to know that when you install the CLT kit you would have to deal with "the domino effect". For example, raising the seat up requires moving the main wheels 6 inch back. That requires flipping the engine right side up. That would probably require a new pre-rotator flex shaft, etc. etc. etc.

I know all this from personal experience.

I would also echo Ron's warnings about flying the low profile Air Command. Especially since you are a rated fixed wing pilot and you are used to flying stable aircraft. The low profile Air Command is statically unstable and flying it would be like flying a fixed wing aircraft in which the center of gravity has moved back outside the limits of the weight and balance envelope. Flying an unstable gyroplane can lead to a PIO - pilot induced oscillations which, in a high thrust line gyro, would result in a PPO - power push-over. Power push over happens when the engine is flipping the gyro forward due to unloading of the rotors. This is a non-recoverable event.

I am really sorry if you didn't know all this before you bought your Air Command. Ron's post above may be a little harsh, but it's true. The only way to make your Air Command safe is to install the CLT upgrade kit. The CLT kit would not only make your gyro statically stable, it would also eliminate the possibility of PPO. With it, your gyro would fly a lot like a fixed wing aircraft.

Udi-

[Rick Whittridge]

Jeff, Good to see you finally decided to get into gyros.I live in Ohio also & like Tim traveled to Greencastle In to train with Gary Goldsberry.This might seem far but it really isn`t when you are ready to train.Once you start with Gary you can`t wait to get back out there & get more training.Trust me the training i got from him has saved my life several times.Take it slow but by all means take it you`ll be glad you did!

[Rotornut]

No one is Retarded!! Lets drop the names. Silly, or something else Please. MJ :)

[GyroRon]

MJ, your right, I shouldn't call anyone retarded and I don't mean it on a personal level. I do wonder though, what you would think if one Day Richard came home and told you he was no longer going to fly his nice safe Centerline thrust custom Soma and instead was going to fly a powerful high thrust line machine??? :)

[Rotornut]

Ron I remember when you did not like name calling, especially when it was Craig Wall calling someone an idiot or stupid. Just want to remind you to Play Nice!

As for Catfish picking a machine in 1994-1995 he learned what machine to buy before buying it, that is were others need to learn. Shop around Ask Questions before buying a Kit. Know that what you buy is Safe and Enjoyable.

Going to Lots of fly-ins and attending Sunstates Monthly fly-ins was a real Plus for him he learned alot from people like Charlie Presnell, Bud O'Neal, Chuck Beatty, Ernie Boyette, Ora Cook, Steve Mc'Gowan, Maxie Wildes, Jamie Bodie etc. Meeting others and joining in is when you suck up knowledge and you dont even realize it. Wish all want to be buyers would Shop around and Learn more before Buying a unsafe machine. Lots of people in PRA willing to help anyone who Ask. MJ :)

[barnstorm2]

Jeff,

Feel free to call me or email me. If you want to call me just send me an email and I will send you my PH.

I to have a single place Air Command. I tried looking up your gyro on ebay but I could not find the competed listing.

Ron's advice is good. He has gotten me through alot and he has owned many good gyros.

I own 2 gyros. one is a Classic Air Command single place like I think you own and a 2 place CLT Air Command.

When I bought it (single place) it had the original pump stick and no horizontal Stab.

Before I even taxied it I installed a Horizontal Stab and brock-style joystick. This is the MIN. safty upgrade.

I have not yet installed the CLT kit. The kit is at a great price but I am still trying to finish working out the bugs in my 2-place's engine and redrive. So I trained in and fly my single place as a high thrust line machine.

I LOVE my single place. I do not feel unsafe in it as my trainers (Gary and Steve) ground into my brain how to avoid PIO. Even my spinal cord knows the proceedures.

I have no plans to upgrade my singleplace to CLT until I am sure my 2-place is free of all work execept routine maint. That will probably be next year at best. I want to keep one gyro flying at all times for my mental health.

I will get my chops busted for saying this but... My own personal track (decide for yourself) was to trailer my machine to my trainer and have him inspect it. He as do I recommend the CLT upgrade but you can safely fly an non CLT machine if you have proper training, a HStab, and a low performance engine. Because your engine is a 503 (mine is a 447) it is not considered a high powered machine. This is to your advantage because the reduces ( not eliminate by any means) your machines tendancy to PPO.

Flipping the engine up:

Ron states that the engine was designed to run with the plugs up. I have heard otherwise but I may be wrong. The manuals for my engine say the engine will run fine up or down. I also heard from a Rotax dealer that the 447 and smaller engines were actually designed to run plugs down because that is how their largest customer wanted them. I have no way to verify that statement though. Keep an eye on the plugs, only fresh gas, TC3 or better oil and follow the Rotax maint schedule.

The process of flipping the engine looks like a real pain. When you buy the CLT kit from Air Command make sure you tell them your engine is mounted plugs down. You may have to make changes to your control rods and pre-rotator. You might want to buy the upgrade kit now even if you don't plan on installing it until later. The price is great and Air Command is to be commended on making this kit available. I recommend getting the kit soon as it has been offered for a long time at the same price and I would not be suprized to see this change in the long term.

Bottom line (IMHO) there is nothing wrong with flying a classic high thrust line Air Command that has a good HStab and safty upgrades if you are properly trained. CLT is better, is safer. Flying my CLT Air Command is easyer and much smoother in windy conditions. I HATE working on gyros, I have left the CLT upgrade for the future so I can tackle one project at a time. CLT is the best but not required. Flipping the engine and installing the CLT kit will be almost a total rebuild of the machines frame. Have Air Command send you the CLT manual and use that as a guide to when you will have time, space, tools and help to upgrade. Buy it now if you can, even if it may be awhile before you install it.

I hate working on gyros but I am happy to help you as I can. Don't hesitate to call or email me. If I can't help I will help find someone who can. I strongly recommend buying a digital camera so if something is questionable you can post pictures to help get answers.

[barnstorm2]

Jeff, one more thing.. ( sorry for the long posts)

If you decide to take training from Gary in Indy. Join PRA chapter 34. As a member you can rent indoor hanger space for $25/mo. There the chapter members will be glad to advise and assist you with your upgrades and help inspect your machine. Chapter 34 also owns some tools, scraps and spares that are available to chapter members. Were it not for the help of Ch34 I don't know if I would have been able to finish my 2-place.

www.prachapter34.com

[Doug Riley]

The factory Hstab on the "classic" Air Command improves the handling qualities quite a bit. It is not large enough to prevent a PPO, however. Setting the engine upright, with the gearbox down and a sidemount exhaust, might be enough to get the CG high enough that the HS would then be adequate. The CG would have to be no more than about an inch below the prop thrustline, however. Besides flipping the engine, you'd have to keep the bottom of the airframe light, using plastic wheels, no under-seat gas tanks and certainly no pod. Staying with the heavy McCutchen blades is advisable to keep the CG as high as possible.

Starting a plugs-down Rotax 2-stroke can be a pretty miserable experience. I can still feel the blisters on my hands! I would never mount one that way again.

[jeffnet]

GyroRon, Thanks for the info, sounds like the upgrade is the way to go. I guess I would have all winter to do it to, I don't think I would be getting the training and the upgrade at the same time. I have been reading as much info as I can about gyro flying, PPO's, POI, and it is something I want to avoid. Was wondering on the CLT upgrade, does that configuration allow you to mount the engine upright? Thanks

[jeffnet]

Thanks, That sounds like a good idea about buying the CLT kit now, I figure it might be awhile before I actually fly mine. I am looking at getting trained first. Jeff
Feel free to call me or email me. If you want to call me just send me an email and I will send you my PH.

I to have a single place Air Command. I tried looking up your gyro on ebay but I could not find the competed listing.

Ron's advice is good. He has gotten me through alot and he has owned many good gyros.

I own 2 gyros. one is a Classic Air Command single place like I think you own and a 2 place CLT Air Command.

When I bought it (single place) it had the original pump stick and no horizontal Stab.

Before I even taxied it I installed a Horizontal Stab and brock-style joystick. This is the MIN. safty upgrade.

I have not yet installed the CLT kit. The kit is at a great price but I am still trying to finish working out the bugs in my 2-place's engine and redrive. So I trained in and fly my single place as a high thrust line machine.

I LOVE my single place. I do not feel unsafe in it as my trainers (Gary and Steve) ground into my brain how to avoid PIO. Even my spinal cord knows the proceedures.

I have no plans to upgrade my singleplace to CLT until I am sure my 2-place is free of all work execept routine maint. That will probably be next year at best. I want to keep one gyro flying at all times for my mental health.

I will get my chops busted for saying this but... My own personal track (decide for yourself) was to trailer my machine to my trainer and have him inspect it. He as do I recommend the CLT upgrade but you can safely fly an non CLT machine if you have proper training, a HStab, and a low performance engine. Because your engine is a 503 (mine is a 447) it is not considered a high powered machine. This is to your advantage because the reduces ( not eliminate by any means) your machines tendancy to PPO.

Flipping the engine up:

Ron states that the engine was designed to run with the plugs up. I have heard otherwise but I may be wrong. The manuals for my engine say the engine will run fine up or down. I also heard from a Rotax dealer that the 447 and smaller engines were actually designed to run plugs down because that is how their largest customer wanted them. I have no way to verify that statement though. Keep an eye on the plugs, only fresh gas, TC3 or better oil and follow the Rotax maint schedule.

The process of flipping the engine looks like a real pain. When you buy the CLT kit from Air Command make sure you tell them your engine is mounted plugs down. You may have to make changes to your control rods and pre-rotator. You might want to buy the upgrade kit now even if you don't plan on installing it until later. The price is great and Air Command is to be commended on making this kit available. I recommend getting the kit soon as it has been offered for a long time at the same price and I would not be suprized to see this change in the long term.

Bottom line (IMHO) there is nothing wrong with flying a classic high thrust line Air Command that has a good HStab and safty upgrades if you are properly trained. CLT is better, is safer. Flying my CLT Air Command is easyer and much smoother in windy conditions. I HATE working on gyros, I have left the CLT upgrade for the future so I can tackle one project at a time. CLT is the best but not required. Flipping the engine and installing the CLT kit will be almost a total rebuild of the machines frame. Have Air Command send you the CLT manual and use that as a guide to when you will have time, space, tools and help to upgrade. Buy it now if you can, even if it may be awhile before you install it.

I hate working on gyros but I am happy to help you as I can. Don't hesitate to call or email me. If I can't help I will help find someone who can. I strongly recommend buying a digital camera so if something is questionable you can post pictures to help get answers.[/QUOTE]

[jeffnet]

Thanks, Dean, I will give them a call. Jeff


Jeff, I just checked your profile and then checked out a map of Ohio and it looks like you are not too far away from Navarre.

Navarre is shown to be the home of PRA Chapter 19 on the PRA home page. I believe it would be helpful if you contacted that chapter and had them provide some guidance. There is an email address on the PRA web site under 'Local Chapters'.

Everyone here was where you are at one time and the quickest way to get up to speed is to join a PRA Chapter. Joining the PRA would also be good!

[bhalls]

Jeff,

You and I are heading down the same path, in my case, starting from here: (http://www.hallsnet.com/brent/acgyro1.jpg)

From pictures I've found on the web, it looks like there are a few ways to go with the CLT upgrade, depending on whether your present machine has the enclosure or not. The standard Elite, as shown on the Air Command site, looks like this. (http://www.hallsnet.com/brent/elitestandard.jpg) A couple of upgrades that make use of the enclosure are this cut down enclosure (http://www.hallsnet.com/brent/elite2.jpg) model and this full enclosure (http://www.hallsnet.com/brent/elite3.jpg) one, complete with the side tanks.

I'm currently waiting on a reply from Doug at Air Command about how their CLT upgrade kit accomodates these various configurations. If you would like to compare notes as we both figure this out, feel free to email me.

As to CLT/Non CLT: Read my post (http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=30176#poststop) in the "Selling a Gyro" thread. It's a lesson my uncle learned the hard way.

I would also be interested in what you eventually decide regarding training.

Brent Halls
Enterprise, Utah

[GyroRon]

Mj, again you right. I hate name calling and I will edit my post of the comment.

Tim, Rotax aircraft engines are based on engines used in Snowmobiles. Heck the 503 IS a snowmobile engine! Anyway have you ever seen a snowmobile with the engine mounted upside down?

[barnstorm2]

Ron,

As I said, I got that info from a Rotax dealer and have never been able to confirm his statement. The manual I have does say you can mount them either way.

[GyroRon]

It is like a weedeater. It WILL run upside down, and may do so for hours upon hours with no problems. But there is no question that upside down running was not the primary mode of mounting a Rotax was designed for. The harder starts is reason enough to flip it rightside up.

[barnstorm2]

She starts on 3-4 pulls cold unprimed and not run since the previous weekend. 1 pull if she was started in the last several hours.

Your point is quite valid. If the engine was not made to be primarily upside down, long-term right side up would be best. It might be best run right side up even if it was made to be run plugs down.

So far she has never so much as even fouled a plug.

[Aussie_Paul]

in 1989 I mentioned to the Air Command agent who is also a 2 stroke guru that I did not like my Rotax plugs down because all the oil drains to the plugs and I believed that could make starting difficult. He said is it difficult to start. I said no.

He told me to remove a plug before a cold start after it had been sitting for a few days. I did and the plug was full of oil. He told me to re fit the plug without tipping the oil out. I did and it started first pull as it uaually did.

He told me that the first spark blows the gunk (technical word) away. I was certainly surpsised at this.

Aussie Paul. :)

[CLS447]

Tim, my upside-down 447 has always started as easily as yours. I have no problems with mine.

I also extended my tail keel as AC recommended, giving the stabs more leverage.

I would someday like to replace the 447 with a new 503 & make it a CLT machine but until then I like it the way it is. I just fly it in calm skys for now.

[StanFoster]

Tim: My upside down 582 in my Air Command almost always started by two pulls and usually one pull. I would shoot a half shot of primer and pull it. My trike buddies with their upright engines didnt have a primer..and they would pull at least half a dozen times.

Stan

[GyroRon]

Some of the upside downers get lucky and can get a easy start.... others don't. My old quicksilver was so hard to start that at times I would have to take off the prop to make it easier to pull the cord and once started and warmed up then stp the engine to reinstall the prop so I could go flying. This Challenger that is in my Hangar is so hard to start that the owner had a electric starter added cause he could never get it to fire before he would wear himself out. Even with the starter, sometimes the engine still wouldn't start before the battery would go dead. Like I said some have better luck, as I know many people with upside down engine installations that start on the first or second pull each time.