Weight,Power,Prop,& Rotorblades

[CLS447]

I am concerned. My new SxS is pretty much complete & test flown. I am very happy with everything except...POWER! Remember I am used to flying a very light 447 AC.

My climbouts leave me wanting more. When cutting back on the throttle during cruise , she sinks. My focus is now to make her more efficient.

According to some, The Prince prop put the Warp to shame. Joe Souza, who built my engine & redrive, originally recommended this prop also. I couldn't get him on the phone yesterday.Does anyone have Princes' phone #. I know it's a long wait , so I better start talkin' to him! This is an easy area to try & get perfomance increases , so I will start there.

My EA-81 appears to be doing it's best. I chose the 81 over the 22 & 25 due to less weight. I could spend alot of money trying to get more out of it or just decide to go with a larger engine right off the bat. Before I order a custom prop, I better make that decision first.

Weight.... I look at my machine & think.... Where can I trim weight?
There are just not many places in my mind.

Another area that is pretty easy to try to increase performance would obviously be the rotorblades. I am hoping to be able to test a set of Dragon Wings at ROC. Erie & Mike.... are you reading this? I think I would need a 27 or 28' set. I could save on shipping for sure!

How about rotor RPM's. With 10 gallons of fuel & a 100 lb concrete passenger, my blades are spinning between 290 & 310. This is about 150 lbs less than my expected max gross( I want more fuel & more pass. weight ). Does changing rotor speed (pitch) do anything for performance?

I also wonder if I bite the bullet & buy a 912s, What would my increases be due to the fact that the engine is lighter.

I hope we can all use me & my machine as a topic of alot of dicussion at ROC. I can't wait to see you all .

Does anyone have any input here & now? Help! My head is spinning. It could be the coffee.

They were test flying a 2 place trike last night. 2 people with a 503. Less than 100 yrd takeoffs & amazing climb...... It just makes me think!

Ron, please be gentle & try not to hurt my feelings. That is if you plan on test flying it. Oh, don't forget to bring scratch & dent money!

[Rando]

Chris,

What is your engine RPM at takeoff and normal cruise?

[CLS447]

After reducing prop pitch by one degree last night, I am getting 5160 on full power takeoff with 12 degrees of pitch. 68" 3- blade warp. Back it down to 4600 at cruise & I lose altitude.

[Rando]

Chris,

That is about the same with mine. I won't even put in full fuel just to keep the weight down. Then again I need to lose some weight (220#). What worries me is I spoke to an EA81 expert and he said anything above 4000 for engine rpm and you are running it too hard! It doesn't make sense? What are you seeing for CHT? EGT?

Like Ken Brock would always say, "rotorcraft are draggy, very draggy."

[CLS447]

Randy, I always think of Ken & echo those same words.

I do not monitor CHT or EGT's I only watch water temps, which are running less than 180. My plugs are running at a very nice color.

Souza said 5200 is no problem.

[gyromike]

Chris,

A little more info might help.

What is the empty weight of the aircraft, no fuel?
What is the Max gross?
What is your rotor span, and what kind of blades do you currently have?
What modifications have been done to the EA81 (Cams? Carbs?)?
What is your redrive ratio?

[CLS447]

Max gross- 1200 lbs

Rotor blades- new Sport Rotors 28' x 8.5 cord

Engine & redrive- Joe Souza 110 HP EA-81 with 2.18-1 gearbox

Dry weight- have to check notes

[quadrirotor]

Use the program of the ASRA: gyroperf.exe (not the excel version), enter your data with the "," decimal not the "."... So you can see what you can expect from your gyro, playing with some parameters...

http://www.asra.org.au/


You must be sure to have 4° aerodynamic pitch of the blade:

[Aussie_Paul]

Chris, maybe 30' blades might have been a better choice on your lead sled.

By the sound of it prop efficiency will not produce a dramatic improvement.

The ea series is lighter but not have the "grunt" hp. An 160 hp ej-25 SOHC might be the go, but I would be looking at increasing the rotor diameter.

I changed from a 582 to a 618 with electric start on my Air Command side X side trainer. The gross weight increased by 4% BUT the hp increased by 16%. The increase was quite noticable.

One of the cheapest ways to gain efficiency can be to increase the length of the hub bar. Not always possible due to rotor system design.

Good luck with that fine looking machine.

Aussie Paul. :)

[quadrirotor]

It seems there is something wrong with the ARSA program with your data!...???

[gyromike]

How about rotor RPM's. With 10 gallons of fuel & a 100 lb concrete passenger, my blades are spinning between 290 & 310. This is about 150 lbs less than my expected max gross( I want more fuel & more pass. weight ). Does changing rotor speed (pitch) do anything for performance?

Chris,

That RRPM seems a little low.
Are the SportRotors pitch-adjustable?
Does Vanek recommend a particular RPM for that rotor diameter and gross wt.?

[CLS447]

Mike, I plan on calling Vanek Mon. to discuss in great detail about what I should do. If 30' blades are what I need, then I guess DW's would be out of the question. Oh, yes, they are pitch adjustable.

Maybe this winter he could fit my hub up with 30' blades at a reduced price.

Paul, I think that I agree with you on the bigger blades. But this is what he recommended. I have room for 30's.

One problem.... Jim V. had an EA-81 on his training machine. Now he has upgraded to an EJ-22. He said he would never go back. What do you think he will recommend to me?

Thanks for the interest & comments......Keep em coming!

[quadrirotor]

Even with a 30' rotor, the perf are marginal...the less expensive is to fly alone: take one seat off!....or you need a 30' rotor plus a 125hp (at least!...135 hp is better) engine, to fly at 1200lbs...

[Brent_Brown]

OK I'm not getting max anything but just to note I am flying a MZ202P that is 60 HP and at 700 pounds it flys OK. I will be at ROC you can see it fly I am fat 245. The gyro empty weight is 410. I only put in 6 gallons to fly around here that is about an hour.
2.88 gears with a 73' power fin prop. Max RPM 5700.

[CLS447]

OK , I've been thinking about this all day while I was getting my ladder crane, like in the PRA mag, ready to help with blade removal & installation. For me this will be quite a bit of work hauling my baby down to ROC. I'm praying for nice weather.

I want to bring my Thrustbuster scale with to do some thrust testing. Sound like fun guys?

Paul, what blades were on your SxS trainer? What was gross weight? How is it that Larry B.'s heavier RAF flies fine with less measured thrust.

I've been warned about frontal drag. I can tell you that it is very real for me. I am thinking about some kind of fairing or partial enclosure of somekind to streamline it a little. Also, are Wheel pants really worth the weight?

Tim O.'s machine is similar to mine except it must be heavier. It has an EJ-22, Aux tanks & DW blades....27' I think. He's flyin OK but he also has an enclosure & more HP. With a 68" WArp the same as me , I would like to know how much thrust he makes. Isn't that really the important factor?

I will figure this out if I have to sell the farm, I'm in too deep already!

I just would like to get it right the second try!
What do I need? Longer blades? (more lift) More HP? (different engine) Better prop? (more thrust) Less drag (enclosure) Better blades? (Dragon Wings) More rotor speed?(change pitch)
Less weight?(diet & start drilling holes)
Tune in tommorrow for the answers to these & other questions! Or ... Tonight at 11 on Action news! Uh- oh... the Weyerbacher is kicking in.

[GyroRon]

Chris I will try to be gentle with ya! First off, I told you not to mess up that sweet single place like you did!!! Wink wink ;) Seriously I was very curious how your were going to end up doing, cause all along I had my doubts that the EA-81 was going to make enough power to fly two people with decent performance. On my old two place tandem with EJ-22 performance was not all that hot with two people... Pretty much had to fly it " balls to the wall " to stay in the sky. Climbing to altitude in the summer with that machine would peg the water temps. It had 29.5 foot Rotorhawks. But this is how most two places are, The only two places I have flown in that seemed to have plenty of power and didn't seemed taxed to fly two people were Steve McGowans Parsons and the two RAF's I have flown in.

I too agree with Mike G. that your rotor RPM seems too low. Alot lower than I would want it to be if it were mine.

I also don't think the 1200$ you will spend on the prince will be the end all fix for your problems. I think it will end up either being Turboed or Superchargered or time to look at a Rotax 914 or a Big Heavy EJ-22 or 25. Or if you want to go Two stroke a Hirth F-30 or maybe the new Inline 3 banger. the Hirths will give you the best power to weight, but then your flying a Hirth!!! Bottom line is I think it will need a better power to weight ratio.

[Aussie_Paul]

Chris the latest Subaru engines coming into Oz are the ej-20s producing 134 hp and the latest ej-25 producing 167 hp for an extra couple of pounds weight. Bothe are SOHC.

The ej-22 is no longer made. I have used an ej-20 of 120 hp and it was certainly a little behind the 130hp ej-22. I can't wait to try the 134 hp ej-20 and the 167 hp ej-25!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL

Don Parham, am I off track here?

Aussie Paul.:)

[GyroRon]

As for those Trikes... Yes it does make me go Hmmm too. Small cheap fuel efficent engine, flying two fat butts, and still climbs like a Bandit! Trikes make a great platform for my favorite auto conversion engine - the Geo Metro 3 banger - and just like a gyro they can be quickly broken down and trailered to where ever you want to take it. AND a Brs parachute can be used..... What is it about spinning rotorblades that makes us stick with what we fly???? :)

[Aussie_Paul]

"Paul, what blades were on your SxS trainer? What was gross weight?"

They were 27' McCuchens and the gross weight was 750 lbs.

I did over 1500 hours in this machine that started with a 532 with 60" prop and 25' McCuchens and ended up with 27' McCuchens blades with a 618 and a 68" prop. The thrust increase between the 582 with a 60" prop and the 582 with a 68" prop was 25 lbs. Similar Mceagle Tims findings in prop diameter.

Aussie Paul. :)

[rfi]

Paul,
I don't know if you are off track or not because I don't know what you are talking about. We only get the DOHC EJ20 turbocharged engine in the Impreza WRX which develops 227 hp. The new (2005) SOHC EJ25 engines for this country are rated at 168 hp, I think.

If you are talking about the weight difference between the EJ20 and EJ25 you are probably on track. I weighed an EJ22 and SOHC EJ25 and found only 5 pounds difference between the two. When it comes to thirty hp difference I would certainly pay a 5 pound weight penalty. BTW, I developed a smaller, light weight, aluminum crank pulley that saves almost 5 pounds over the stock unit and slows down the alternator by 24%.

[birdy]

Ron,mate,we're in danger of agree'n here. :)
Sorry Ron,you took the words out of my mouth.
To compare my RAF with the RAF blades and EJ22 to what it has now is like apples "N" oranges.
Chris,I'm no gyro builder but I have played with different combinations of rotors,power and weight and can say that if you do nail the "balance" between the three you'll have a good performer.And it dosn't take much of an imbalance to drasticaly reduce the performance.
Personaly,I dought you'll gain anything in try'n to reduce drag coz we fly so slow and any reduction to the machines drag will have little effect when you have such a draggy "wing".[I reckon a few more RRPM would help coz at less than 300rpm on 29'ers,they would be hold'n you back.330/340rpm should help.]

When I shed 70kg[changed from the RAF EJ22 to 914]and flew more efficiant extruded blades [from the RAF ones],it turned the old pigs ear into a silk purse. :p :D

[Chuck Irby]

Chris, I'm sorry about the problem with your beautiful machine. This is just my opinion, but I have always felt that we need a minimum of 160 horses (200 would be even better) to fly two guys in a gyro. To me the EA 81 you have now would be great on a single place. Many here on the forum have disagreed with me about the horse power thing, and I will readily admit that I may be unique because I enjoy cruising at half throttle and prefer to have plenty of power in reserve.

[quadrirotor]

You can use the program of Mr Jukka Tervamaki to compute the perf...The ROC is underestimated; but Mr Tervamaki said to me that the power of the engine must be calibrated! TTS: you must determine the static thrust of your set up (engine+propeller) and adjust the virtual power of your engine input in the program to have the actual static thrust of your set up...This could give something which could be closer to the reality. (to be confirmed) :)

http://www.icon.fi/%7Ejtki/index.html

[GyroRon]

No Chuck, I totally agree with you on this. The only way to fly two people on less power is to make the machine EXTRA light. The older two place dominator would fly two people on the same 75 horsepower engine your flying on your single place. But it was feather light for a gyro. Most two place gyros weight between 600-800 pounds empty....

[quadrirotor]

To have a flyable gyro, you must have:
less than 10 lb of weight by hp of power;
less than 1.8 lb of weight by foot squared of rotor area;
a solidity ratio between 0.035 and 0.040. (between 35 to 45 lb/ft2 of blade).

[barnstorm2]

Chris,

My weight is 730 lbs (with gas in seat tanks).
Static thrust is 535lbs
28 DWs
Planetary redrive 1:2.18
Warpdrive 68" 14ish deg tops RPM at 5100
EJ-22 Carbed


Climbs with me like mad.
Climbs with weight bags very well, (120-170lbs) cruise mid-low 4000's
I only flew the pattern with my instructor a few times and I was not concentrating on performace numbers but she could climb and hold altitude fine.

She likes it fast though, drop under 50mph airspeed and she goes under the powercurve.

[quadrirotor]

Fed up * * * * * * * around with the programs of Tervamaki and ASRA, i made my own and this gives:
CLS447: 930 lbs-> 470 ft/min 1130 lbs-> 200 ft/min...
BARNSTORM2: 930 lbs-> 1032 ft/min 1130lbs-> 650 ft/min...

If you think at something with a better efficiency, may be those are interesting; no stall, compactness, same flight domain and even more speedy with less power (fuel consumption...):

[CLS447]

Tim, what is your RRPM solo? With weight?

Considering the fact that you have an enclosure, aux tanks, EJ-22, oil cooler, wheel pants?, How can my machine weigh almost as much as yours? Someone's got a bad scale. Do you know what the EJ-22 weighs?

This still doesn't change the fact that yours is performing well.

We measured our static thrust at 460 lbs at 5100 with 68" Warp. Souza said I should be getting 500. I gotta talk to him.

I would love to try a set of DW's! I wonder if decreasing pitch to speed up the blades would have a positive effect on performance. I hope to talk Jim V. tommorrow & see what he recommends. It is real easy to change pitch with the SC's

Then I am going to throw out the cement bag & give that a try. I may try to sit in the middle somehow.

Will an underpowered engine appear better with a lighter disk loading?

Maybe some roller rockers & dual port heads with the forged piston set would help me out. If I end up with an EJ-22 or 25 at least I can still use my gearbox.

Vaneck makes a 4' hub that might be a quicker & less expensive way to get 29's but I'd rather lengthen the blades. Like paul said maybe 30'

I can say this... I am flying it with a single centered stick, with my arm just hanging out there. Upper & lower control tubes are both on the outside hole of my scissors. There is no stick shake at all but the instrment pod tends to shake in a 2 per rev type of thing. Trim spring is at its shortest setting. Stick inputs are very positive but not hard.

[rehler]

Chris, you said: "I wonder if decreasing pitch to speed up the blades would have a positive effect on performance. I hope to talk Jim V. tommorrow & see what he recommends. It is real easy to change pitch with the SC's".

1. Please let me know what Jim tells you - I too need this information.

2. How do you adjust the SC's blade pitch? Do you chance the size of the top and bottom "spacer washers" on each side of the blade?

I just put on my new Sport Rotors today and was shocked by how slow they were turning - took a long time to get them up to 200 rpm - didn't take off thinking something must be wrong! I worry the pitch is way too great - look like a lot!

Thanks.

[CLS447]

Ken, 200 prerotate or takeoff roll? I just watched the video again, didn't you get one? On one blade you move a washer to the top on one side & move a washer to the bottom on the other side. Then do the same for the other blade. I'm still only turning 300 rpm but I was hoping to carry another 150lbs. If I could do it, maybe then I would get more RPM. I will let you know what he says.

It takes a little time to prerotate them heavy suckers but after 150 mine come up pretty quickly.

[GyroRon]

The Sportcopters are smooth flying blades and in my comparison between the 7 inch chord Sportcopters and Dragon wings there didn't seem to be much performance difference. The Dragon wings were 5 pounds lighter.

I do wonder though how much the fancy wide chord sportcopter blades are over simular length Dragon wings??? May be one area to shed some poundage.

[quadrirotor]

First, lessening the pitch gives a less efficient rotor!
Second, i tried a simulation with a quadrirotor (four blades) 4 X 25' X 7'' and the results are incredible so i don't give them to you but if i were you i would try a four blades rotor (with the same engine). To overcome the lead-lag problem, i would try the same elastomeric bushing used with the big Sportcopter rotor... :) and to be sure i'll use strain gauges to check the life span of the blades (give this problem to the nearest university...). :)

[Steven_Kozned]

Chris:
The Sport Copter trainer used to have a fixed pitch prop connected to a souped up NSI EA81 -- it could hardly get out of it's own way. Basically, it was on full power, full time, and it croaked after a short time.

They replaced the engine with a fuel injected NSI 160 HP unit with a variable pitch prop -- and that made all the difference. That engine is now stock, and makes it's horsepower as per the manufacturer's design -- it's not overstressed and should last.

The Rotax 914 is light, sure, but it's still pony power torque-wise, compared to a stock 160HP Subaru in a dual place machine. Remember, you can't use that 115HP for more than a couple minutes at a time. The Subaru, even with a variable pitch prop is still thousands cheaper than the 914 ($20K+).

I'd be interested in hearing the results of your talk with Jim V. tomorrow.

[barnstorm2]

Tim, what is your RRPM solo? With weight?.

With Weight 344ish (see attached photo)

Considering the fact that you have an enclosure, aux tanks, EJ-22, oil cooler, wheel pants?, How can my machine weigh almost as much as yours? Someone's got a bad scale. Do you know what the EJ-22 weighs?

No idea, what are you weighing? I thought mine was too heavy...



Then I am going to throw out the cement bag & give that a try. I may try to sit in the middle somehow.?

Chris, I have been flying with and without the bag alot. The weight on the other side is not such a big deal. The biggest difference is when you break ground. She wants to lift on the passinger side right when you get the P factor. After that you just have to angle the cyclic alittle. I don't even notice the difference anymore.


I can say this... I am flying it with a single centered stick, with my arm just hanging out there. Upper & lower control tubes are both on the outside hole of my scissors. There is no stick shake at all but the instrment pod tends to shake in a 2 per rev type of thing. Trim spring is at its shortest setting. Stick inputs are very positive but not hard.

My blade shake is very low, last time I put the blades on I did a good job of slinging them. Controls seem good.

I will try to post some video tonight.

Chris,
Take the bags out and fly it for a while like that.
I would enquire into the static thrust issues.
How much time do you have on it now?
As I fly mine more I have grown to like it more and more. When I first flew it I was thinking it was going to be too much of a 'handfull' and now I am feeling much more confident.

From the pictures it looks like your bird is flying well!

[barnstorm2]

André, Can you tell me where to get plans for that rotorhead?

[barnstorm2]

Ok, here is a short poor video. It was my girlfriends first use of the camera and she had no tripod or time to practice. I might use the footage for transitions or blurbs.
Gives a feel for what it looks like though.

Go to the middle of the page and click on the link that take you to the Tempory Video Page.

[quadrirotor]

Barnstorm2, i have no plan, you have to design it yourself! when you buy a gyro, you buy a Research & Development project!...

[barnstorm2]

Andre, what about that 4-bladed picture you posted? is it a mockup or a flyer? If it flew maybe there are plans to be had. Can you tell us more about this machine?

[Chuck Irby]

It seems that with four blades instead of two, the blades could be somewhat shorter.

However, the downside; for those of us who have been storing our machines on the side of the hanger, in an 8' wide space, storage would become much more complex, not to mention disassembly and reassembly when transporting to and from a fly-in.

[GyroRon]

Talk to Ernie Boyette or Rusty Nance about 4 blade rotors on a gyro. It is harder to make it happen than you might think.

[quadrirotor]

For the pix above:
http://www.asra.org.au/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=457

For ref:
The performances and efficiency are documented:
Boyette: Rotocraft dec-jan 97-98 p.44.
Magni: Rotocraft dec-jan 00-01 p.27.
and others...
conclusions: better efficiency, better lift, less drag, less (no) vibrations, better flares, stiffer and cheaper blades, less fatigue, better sound and so on etc...
The scisor effect (lead-lag) is not well documented, it seems not to be a big issue for semi-rigid rotors.
Sportcopter solved this problem that exists even with two blades rotor...

Price=(may have changed...)
Sportcopter 25' 7"----> 1700$ X 2 = 3400$
Sportcopter 30' 8"----> 3900$ X 1 = 3900$

500$ cheaper with four blades! ok use them to have a heavier and more complex rotor head...

[GyroRon]

From what I remember being told, using four blades, without a expensive and elaborate lead lag system, the rotor blades and rotorhead will try to tear itself apart in a extremely short time frame - in one or two flights!

It isn't the same as comparing the price of two sets of dragon wings to one set of fancy sportcopter blades, as there will still need to be alot of fabrication to make the blades have lead lag instead of being ridgid as they are.

Maybe Chuck Beaty will chime in, he knows all about the experiments Ernie and Rusty did.

[Victor Duarte]

andre, wait 1 or 2 days, i v quite achieved my rotor design .. 3 blades are ok, why not 4 ?

ps : the design on the pic mays be very hazardous on my opinion...

[Doug Riley]

The old Bensen rule for thrust-to-weight ratio was that a small pusher gyro needed 1 lb.of thrust for every 2 lb. of weight. You're a bit shy of that meeting that requirement, Chris. Disk loading is a problem, too: even a 29-foot dia. rotor gives a disk loading of around 1.8, pretty high for a small gyro. As you know, 1-place gyros run around 1.3 lb./sq. ft. Many heavy 2-placers are under-rotored, leading to the need for ridiculous amounts of power (100 hp/person) and a glide angle about the same as a free-falling rock.

The side-by-side config. involves a double hit to performance. It adds parasite drag, sure, but maybe more important is the poor flow to the prop. That's why side-by-sides with big pods are especially noisy; the prop is working in turbulent air, stalling and then going to zero AOA here and there as it spins.

I would guess that the engineless frame of that SXS Air Command would weigh no more than a Dominator tandem, maybe less. My Dom. tandem with 912 S weighs about 490, empty and dry. At a disk loading of around 1.6, it flies pretty nicely with 700-800 RPM difference between cruise and redline.

Is it the Soob or the Sportcopter blades that add so much empty weight?
Enough brute power will lift almost anything, but it's nice to fly with less power and more finesse, if you can. I'd get the biggest diameter (and most efficient rotor) I could fit, but I'd also think about an engine with a better power-to-weight ratio unless you have assurances from Prince that you can get 600 lb. of thrust out of your present engine.

[MikeBoyette]

Chris,
Dad is without power or phone (Damn Verizon) after the hurricane. The next time I am in his area I will ask if he is bringing a set of 28'. If he is, and they are not committed to someone else, I am sure he would be more than happy to let you try them. As for the four bladed system it was a great idea that needs a lot more work. The idea was abandoned in favor of a 3 bladed head you may see soon.

[rehler]

Chris,

Thanks for the info. No, I didn't get a video with my blades - just a hat. CORRECTION: I did get a video - I just forgot about it but found it at home.

I thought I just had one thick washer (about 1/4" thick) on the top and a thin one on the bottom - and vise-versa on the other side. I'll look again - maybe the "thick" washer really is a stack of several washers.

If you do get to talk to Jim, let us know what he says.

[CLS447]

Hey Guys,

I really appreciate the interest and responses I've been getting, thanks.
All of your input is highly regarded!

Mike B., Thanks alot. Sorry to hear about the storm damage. I tried to call him today with no answer. Now I know why. In his ad in PRA mag he has 29ft blades listed. I wanted to ask him which ones he recommended and to see if he could bring a set to ROC for me to try and if I liked them, bring cash and take them home with me. If this doesn't happen maybe I could try Maxie's or something. Please let me know what he says. Thanks again.

Doug, I too thought about larger rotors doing a better job but Vaneck insisted 30ft blades would take more power to fly. I may never get to try a bigger set of Sportrotors. My SC blades weigh 86lbs. total. I imagine my engine package is about 200lbs. So I would say your frame is probably lighter.

Jim V. told me his EA81 performed just like mine is, full power all the time, but now he is very happy with his NSI EJ22. I'm thinking about going the brute horse power way.

I talked to Joe Souza later and he really tried to push Rotordynes on me. His prop recommendation for the Prince still stands. He claims he got 520lbs of thrust from his. That definitely wouldn't hurt my situation.

Jim V. told me to run the engine higher on RPM's by backing off the pitch until I started losing thrust. Basically, find the best thrust and go with that. He likes the Warp Drive.

Joe Souza told me to consider a Paxton Supercharger to add a possible 50hp safely.

I flew again tonight, with the 100lb bag. I love the machine, but I want better climb and weight carrying ability. I'll pick this up in the morning as we are very tired.

Good night all and Thanks again!

[CLS447]

Ken, you should call & ask for the video. It goes through tracking & pitch adjustment.

After talking with him, I decided not to mess with the pitch because then I have to retrack. I just don't feel like messing with that.

Please try those blades again & let me know what happens. At least you have something to compare them to. Thanks, Chris

[Aussie_Paul]

Chris, I believe, rightl or wrongly that larger diameter blades take less power to fly untill you get behind the power curve which will probably be 15 mph lower than it is now. Larger diameter rotors will fly at a less disc AoA to carry the same load. Less drag = less power required.
I really don't understand why Jim would say that.

Just get them blades longer!!!!!!!

Aussie Paul. :)

[GyroRon]

Hate to say this, but from what I have heard, RAF blades are good lifters and will haul alot of weight on less power than some other blades. Might want to try a set of RAF blades Chris. I know Larry has a set or two, see if he will loan you a set for a flight.

Maxie Wildes swears by RAF blades. He has flown alot of blades and really likes the RAF blades on heavy machines.

RAF's newest version of blades seem to be much better constructed than the older blades. Other than the bolt that holds the blades to the hubbar I would be comfortable with flying a set.

[barnstorm2]

Chris,

Have you evaluated any new front tyres yet?

[CLS447]

Paul, maybe Jim didn't want me to try & trade blades with him. I tend to agree with you on this matter.

Ron, fitting Larry's RAF blades is already on the drawing board. Is Maxie using them on his tandem?

Tim, I already ordered a Hegar 4" wide by 6" dia. wheel with a 13" diameter round profile tire from LEAF. I'll let you know how it fits. Talking to Hegar, they said I could get 1/4" narrower but that would eliminate the tubeless spacer. I did not want to compromise strength or add a tube. If need be I can remove it later & see what happens.

Gotta search superchargers!

[rehler]

Chris,

I had to add tubes on my Hager wheels, as they would not hold air well - would slowly go flat over time. You may need to do so also. I bought cheap tubes (about $8.50) not the expensive ones - from http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/lgpages/tires_ultralite.php

[gyromike]

Chris,

I had to add tubes on my Hager wheels, as they would not hold air well - would slowly go flat over time. You may need to do so also. I bought cheap tubes (about $8.50) not the expensive ones - from http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/lgpages/tires_ultralite.php

So did I.

I got tired of having to air them up every other week.
No problems now.

[StanFoster]

Chris: I have the newest rotorblades from RAF...and I have taken my 270 pound son, along with my 220 pound butt....22 gallons of fuel...and flew on an 85 degree day. The climb rate obviously wasnt good...and it wasnt expected to be....but those blades are tip weighted and landed with plenty of extra lift. I made a bunch of landings...and they were very easy to land as soft as you want.

Stan

[GyroRon]

Maxies only gyro, a Tandem Aircommand Ultralight trainer, is not to weight over 496 pounds to be legal. So the only choice he has for blades is Dragon Wings due to their being the lightest blades on the market.

Maxies old machine, The one that Automan1223 has now, used to fly with RAF blades and that was a heavy gyro. Maybe the heaviest two place out there. It flew good and could fly at least a 200 pound pilot and a near 300 pound passenger with a Stock Carbed EJ-22

[CLS447]

OK , last night before dismantleing my gyro, to load on the trailer, for the trip to ROC, I did a few more "test" flights.

It was calm but it must have been some good air because, with the 100lb bag, my climb was not all that bad. I flew around for a bit & noticed my inst. pod wobbling pretty good(cabin hop?) This annoys me as I don't like anything shaking.

I landed & rid myself of the cement bag. I mentally prepared myself for the change. This time the front wheel came off quickly & I didn't have to balance for long before she became airborn. Wow what a difference! I had 500' before the end of the 2500' paved runway. I backed the rpm's down to 4600 & she still kept climbing. I could maintain 50mph & altitude at 4500rpm.Another note... the shake was gone. If only she would perform this well with another 250lbs!

My taller towers from AC put my teeter bolt 4 1/4" up from my bearing block. Jim V. said he liked more than that but he could use that, so my hub bar was built for that measurement. The other day he asked how that was working out & I told him...Fine. He said that I may get more shake when I add more weight, due to undersling. Well, I think the 100lb bag is enough to cone the blades far enough to make shake. Since I am making new towers to accept the RAF blades, I may talk to Jim V. about a taller teeter block to help smooth this out. Depending on my tests I may be asking for 30' replacement blades also.

I would like to try 28' DW's for a direct comparison but have a feeling I would be better off with 29' s. If the DW's do the job, I will buy them.

Would the 29'DW's have 2-12' blades with a 5' hub bar ? Could I adjust undersling by selecting another teeter bolt hole? Who thinks the DW's are going to blow away the SC blades?

How many of you think I am gonna like them so much that I plunk down the cash & take em home?

Who feels that it is a horsepower situation?


Today we will tweak the prop pitch to achieve max thrust even if I have to rev upwards to 6000rpm. Change oil & pan gasket & make her as pretty as possible for the "judges" ! I can't wait to pull in at ROC & see you all again. I think we are gonna have great weather & fun!

[birdy]

Just a quick note Chris,if you decrease the pitch on the blades a little they will spin faster,flattening the disc and may rid the coning shake.

[birdy]

Hmmm,stuffed that up didn't I.
Your git'n shake when your loaded,more RRPM.So to increase the pitch will reduce RRPM,and maybe rid the shake.

I'll shutup now.

[CLS447]

Thanks Birdy & good morning..... Here anyway.

You mean speed up the blades for less coning , Right?

I will get to that phase eventually. But for now I am not gonna mess with the pitch & track yet. Thanks for the suggestion!

Have a great day!

[CLS447]

Stan F. , I can't wait to try them RAF 30 ft's !

Ken R., What's the latest with you? I can tell you that I get some pretty good torque roll on takeoff, especially with the cement bag off ! My arm was tiring quickly holding right stick last night. Gotta get some side trim going for me.

[barnstorm2]

Chris, I'm thinking you need a little more thrust.

I don't even notice adjusting the cyclic for no passinger, do you have your trim spring adjusted?

My rotorhead shakes when under load but so far no cabin shake and little stick shake unless making a steeper then corrdinated turn ( a turn the requires backstick ).

Have fun at ROC I wish I was going.

[rehler]

Chris,

It is raining today so it looks like tomorrow will be my only chance for a short test flight or two before I have to take off my blades and load up for the trip to ROC.

Regarding torque roll, I have come to the conclusion that the primary thing is prop pitch! It is very clear that more prop pitch equals more torque roll. Less pitch equals less roll. And every time I adjust the prop pitch I then have to re-adjust the rudder trim tabs and the push rod lengths. My original problem on my first flight was way too much prop pitch!

Regarding DW blades I think they are too thin (chord width) for long blades. However, you should talk to Brad King as he has extensive experience with DW on his heavy two place gyro - and he is a very experienced gyro pilot!

[CLS447]

Ken, I am so glad that you are coming to ROC! You are a die hard for sure. Have a safe trip up. Bring Brad King with you! Are you bringing the Mc's or the SC's? Maybe you can try some DW's also?

[StanFoster]

Chris: I checked my logbook for MRPM's to hold altitude. I did the testing when it was 60 degrees. I could hold altitude at 3980 rpm's with my 220 pound butt in my RAF and ten gallons of fuel. Any less...and I would start sinking....

I also took Jeff up,,,we weighed 490 pounds....also had ten gallons of fuel...I could hold altitude at 4550 rpm's. But flew with 4800 most of the time with him in there. He is a big guy. Now when I take gyroJenny up....her weight is now officially "classified" ...but she is 130 pounds lighter than Jeff.... :D
and it climbs a whole lot better.

These RAF blades have lots of reserve energy with those tip weights. I am very pleased with them

Stan

[rehler]

Chris,

I sold my McCutchen blades and finally did some flying with the Sport Rotors today for the first time. They had great lift, very smooth, and the gyro wanted to go faster as if there was less rotor drag (just a strong impression). However, the maximum rotor rpm was 290, which seems really slow! The most my prerotator can get them up to is 70 rpm without some wind and they take a long time to spin up on the runway too.

See you this weekend at ROC.

[Friendly]

Chris: I checked my logbook for MRPM's to hold altitude. I did the testing when it was 60 degrees. I could hold altitude at 3980 rpm's with my 220 pound butt in my RAF and ten gallons of fuel. Any less...and I would start sinking....

I also took Jeff up,,,we weighed 490 pounds....also had ten gallons of fuel...I could hold altitude at 4550 rpm's. But flew with 4800 most of the time with him in there. He is a big guy. Now when I take gyroJenny up....her weight is now officially "classified" ...but she is 130 pounds lighter than Jeff....
and it climbs a whole lot better.

These RAF blades have lots of reserve energy with those tip weights. I am very pleased with them

Stan
__Stan , I am terrible at math but I think you may have unclassified some figures. 490 -220 = 270 270 -130=140.

[CLS447]

Stan, As far as you know that is a stock EJ- 22 from RAF , right? That seems like very good performance. I wonder how much is contributed to the 30' blades or to the thrust ? Did you ever pull on a scale?

Does RAF put hotter cams in their engines ?

After reading Don Parhams article in , what use to be his magazine , I looked under the hood of my 89 Turbo wagon. Son of a gun, I didn't even know it, It is an EA-82 but not like in my 88, it is MPFI & turbo. I think God had me pick up that rust bucket for a reason. That may be the answer to my HP problems. I gave the guy $300 & towed it away.

I must talk to Don, I'm not sure if the bellhousing is like the EA-81 or like the EJ-22. Either way I can adapt my gearbox to it. Simpler exhaust & looks easy to fit up. Imagine no carb heat & turbo. Not sure if I could cam it up or not due to the turbo. I wonder what she could put out HP wise?

Ken R. , looks like you might get a chance to tinker with your pitch. I'll bring that video tape with & you can borrow it if you need to.

I got my oil pan gasket changed, & the oil & filter. I also have the SxS on the trailer. A couple tie downs ,some clothes packing, & we'll be leaving hopefully before noon on Tues.

[StanFoster]

Chris: It is a stock EJ22. I am running 13 degrees pitch on my 68 inch Warpdrive. I am reporting true indicated tach readings. I did have the tach compared to an electronic tach a local A&P had and it was reading right on.

Back in August...I noticed my rpm's dropped to 4900 max. I was wondering what was going on.....I finally looked around and saw my carbheat butterfly had closed.....drawing in restricted and heated air... :eek:

I landed and found the clamp had slipped on the cable...I reconfigured it and I was back to 5200 like it always was. :D

I was going to check into switching to fuel injection....then asked myself why? I finally have an engine that has given me 120 hours of sputter free performance so far this year.....and I just dont feel I need any more power. I just have never been so all around satisfied with anything I have owned. So...I am leaving it alone ...unless it starts giving me trouble in the future.

My other RAF with the EA82 wont be as much of a powerhouse..However.... I just talked to Ron Menzie ...and he said it was adequate for two average people...he should know as he has flown the devil out of RAF's. The phone calls to him last winter convinced me I would be happy with my RAF. If I had only known how satisfied I ended up being with it.... :D

Stan

[barnstorm2]

Ok, I was wrong.

I do have cabin shake (pod shake). I guess I just never noticed until I looked.

Also, I have to amend another statement I made in this thread. Flying without a passinger is much more noticeable when you only have a 1/4-1/3 of a tank of gas. I have flown a number of times with out a weight but each time I had a full tank of gas. It was not so much of a change that I felt uncomfortable. She flew fine, just I had to make more correction then I thought I had before.

[CLS447]

Tim, when we get back from ROC, I am going to borrow Larry's RAF teeter towers & have them duplicated except for mine will have 4 bolt holes for the double bearing block. This will give me 4 3/4" from bolt to teeter stops instead of 4 1/4" that I have now. I will then purchase the "spreader bar" & maybe the "droop stops" from RAF. Or maybe have them made, I don't want RAF to break my bank.

If I don't fall "in love" with the DW's & buy them, I am going to try the 30' RAF blades. If these help, I will then talk to Jim V. about longer blades & a taller teeter block.

I need to have some type of roll trim. Pitch trim doesn't seem to be an issue now. I like the electric trim motors that Ernie B. has. I just don't know if I have the room to install them.

What towers do you have & what is your bolt height ?

I still need to finish my T-stick for 2 people.

My plan is to find the absolute best lift & then take care of the HP situation. I am thinking about the turbo EA-82 out of my spare Sub wagon, just gotta look into it more. I'm not sure of the weight & HP yet. Either way I will be rebuilding my next Sub myself to save money. Except of course for boring, honing, valve job& so on. Shar likes the thought of supercharging the 81 but will take more effort & money than she realizes. One thing for sure, the EA-82 on Dick Degraws GYRINO sure seems to work well !

I may experiment with props first also, I'm thinking Ivo or Prince. It's cheaper & easier to try the Ivo. I am very happy with the Ivo on my 447.

The machine is all ready to go, tied down on the trailer & we are hitting the road this morning. I don't want to get to ROC late at night, so we might stop for the evening & finish the journey in the morning. My fuel burn in the 77 motor home is $40 for 200 miles, but I'm sure the trip will be worth it.

Soooo..... See you all when we get back, BE SAFE !

[barnstorm2]

Have a great time Chris! Take pictures!