Chopter Gyroplane

[GrantR]

http://www.breeseaircraft.com/

Wow that looks awesome Vance!

[Mike484]

Cool Vance, wish you success with it.

[GyroDoug]

Is this for real? I have to admit it it a very neat concept and very good looking. I just want to know if this is more than a concept on a web page and if there has been any work done to build a prototype and test it to see how it flies. I can sure see this gaining a lot of attention really quick. Now how about the rest of the story?

[Vance]

Hello Grant and Mike, this was a project that I was working on as I encountered the fiscal storm that consumed my wealth. Victor did the sight development and we got pretty far down the road with a proof of concept prototype. We even had a flight simulator based on X plane and a fairly large utility patent.

It is actually why I learned to fly a gyroplane. I felt that I needed to understand what made flying fun.

The Harley Davidson twin cam 88 makes around 80 horsepower and weighs around 140 lbs with the alternator. At the time I could buy them for around $2,500.

Harley Davidson had done a validation that sounds like something you would do for an aircraft engine and some of the engineers there felt that the engine would last a minimum of 500 hours in that application.

I had to shrink my dreams as my financial world collapsed.

I keep the site up as a memory of my former self.

Projects like that need to be approached with a lot of money that can easily be lost so I have no intention of bring it to fruition.

Thank you, Vance

[Vance]

Hello Doug,

I had about two years of full time work into it.

We had built a proof of concept re-drive and the main body and empennage was finished.

I was about to start on the airframe when my financial world collapsed.

I had the help of a lot of very smart gyroplane people and I had hired an aeronautical engineer to do stability and structural analysis.

It was real to me and I had every intention of running it down the road in 2005.

The idea was to use parasitic marketing and a dealer network.

Thank you, Vance

[Dirtydog]

GrantR :
Nice looking, so when is you order going to placed? :sad:

Vance :
Now that is what I call a bike......

[StanFoster]

Vance- That is one well set up presentation....I still remember you showing me this concept in the motel room. Thats when I realized what a brilliant mind you have. I could not imagine what you had to think out.

Very impressive and I hope someday something happens to cause this machine to turn to reality.


Stan

[choppergabor]

Nice concept. It is not just good looking but I can see its usefulness too. Dreamers rule! Nice job Vance very impressive. :)

[Joe Pires]

Vance- That is one well set up presentation....I still remember you showing me this concept in the motel room. Thats when I realized what a brilliant mind you have. I could not imagine what you had to think out.

Very impressive and I hope someday something happens to cause this machine to turn to reality.


Stan

Wow if I knew that that is what Vance met when he said come up to my room and I will show you my etchings, i would have gone. That is very cool.

If you could have built it Vance what do you think it would have sold for?

[Chuck Roberg]

Vance is one great guy. He might be a slow talker. But you know his mind is always racing and coming up with new ideas.

Oops, don't want to leave Ed out. She's one sweet gal also. :)

[Vance]

Thank you Chris, I was not able to imagine what the ….indicated.

Thank you Stan, the support of friends like you means a lot to me.

Thank you Gabor, I wish I had half of your artistic talents. The aesthetics grew out of an iterative process, trying to combine my love of motorcycles with my love for Art Nouveau. Because it is supposed to fly, functionality often intruded on the aesthetics. I had recently left design at Indian Motorcycle in Gilroy and was trying to add some of that as well. Many of the shapes are from Harley Davidson and Indian of the past. My love of flying gyroplanes was just developing at the time.

Hello Joe, I was trying to use the margins in the motorcycle supply chain so it would not have been cheap. We would ask our Harley Davidson customers what there expectation was and it would generally be around $80,000. The target price was $59,000 including twenty hours of training and 40 hours of builder assist from the dealer. The dealer had a 20% margin plus we would pay him for training and builder assist. The initial BOM was under $10,000 and we felt we could lower that. We took a concept model to one of the motorcycle industry trade show and many dealers expressed an interest. I was surprised how many motorcycle dealers already flew.

Thank you Chuck, you have been kind and encouraging from the very beginning. I am glad to know you and wish I were more like you.

Thank you, Vance

[Lspav8r]

Thank you Chris, I was not able to imagine what the ….indicated.

Thank you Stan, the support of friends like you means a lot to me.

Thank you Gabor, I wish I had half of your artistic talents. The aesthetics grew out of an iterative process, trying to combine my love of motorcycles with my love for Art Nouveau. Because it is supposed to fly, functionality often intruded on the aesthetics. I had recently left design at Indian Motorcycle in Gilroy and was trying to add some of that as well. Many of the shapes are from Harley Davidson and Indian of the past. My love of flying gyroplanes was just developing at the time.

Hello Joe, I was trying to use the margins in the motorcycle supply chain so it would not have been cheap. We would ask our Harley Davidson customers what there expectation was and it would generally be around $80,000. The target price was $59,000 including twenty hours of training and 40 hours of builder assist from the dealer. The dealer had a 20% margin plus we would pay him for training and builder assist. The initial BOM was under $10,000 and we felt we could lower that. We took a concept model to one of the motorcycle industry trade show and many dealers expressed an interest. I was surprised how many motorcycle dealers already flew.

Thank you Chuck, you have been kind and encouraging from the very beginning. I am glad to know you and wish I were more like you.

Thank you, Vance
I would love to see this go to production, but 59,000 dollars? It's a gyro for gods sake, not an airplane that can carry people with purpose. Guys we need to use your expertise to come up with something people can actually afford and Im not talking about motorcycle dealers/manufacturers, for gods sake those people are rich. Do we really need to make this a sport for the rich? Some of these ideas are really good but you need to put your expertise in to making a gyro for the masses if you want more people to get in to this sport. And please dont jump on me about liability costs and insurance. That is a hurdle you need to worry about after you make something everyone can afford.

After all the whole thing is a crap shoot anyways so damned the insurance industry and the liability attorneys. Just do it.

Just kidding. Or am I.:painkiller:

[Vance]

Hello Jim,

Thank you for your thoughtful response. I love to learn about business.

When I was a Harley Davidson dealer most of the other dealers had a net profit of less than 5% of the gross. That would mean that if they sold things with a 5% discount they would not have a return on investment and if they sold at a 10% discount they would soon be out of business.

I felt my job was to help my customers enjoy their motorcycle so I put on lots of motorcycle events and tried to get my customers to ride their motorcycles. It took money to do this kind of marketing and I would budget 3% of my gross income for this purpose.

My customer’s annual mileage was more than twice the national average. I felt I was successful at helping my customers enjoy their purchase and adding to the value of that purchase.

If I did not make a profit I would not have the resources to help my customers enjoy the sport and I could not pay my employees a decent wage. I would have failed in my responsibilities.

Labiality was a very real issue and insurance was a significant expense.

I felt that the dealer network was a viable concept for promoting gyroplanes. It adds to the cost but it gives people access to local events and support that is lacking now. Without a profit it is very difficult to make anything happen. Volunteers have lives too and there is only so much time they can give away. Most of the people working on our events were volunteers but the people who managed the event were well paid and there was a large marketing effort that had a real cost.

At this time, if you don’t live in Florida or Oregon there is very little support for gyroplanes outside of nonprofit clubs which do a remarkable job but without resources they are not able to promote the sport on the level it deserves. If the manufactures don’t make a profit they do not have the resources to help the customer enjoy their aircraft.

According to public records AAI spent more than $1,000,000 developing the SparrowHawk and managed to sell their aircraft for about half of what it cost to produce and had no return on investment. They are no longer selling gyroplane kits and the stock has lost most of it’s value. Most of the customers have suggested that it cost around $60,000 to build their SparrowHawk.

There are already several designs out there that are very low cost. If cheap prices were the answer I would think they would be flourishing.

Business is a crap shoot and there is no reason to increase the odds against success by breaking all the rules.

I have done initial design work on inexpensive gyroplanes with an initial BOM under $6,500 dollars. I suspect that could be lowered by as much as 13% as the production numbers went up.

What would I have to sell it for to be a gyroplane for the masses?

What do you feel manufacture, marketing and distribution should look like?

Thank you, Vance

[Chuck Roberg]

Hi Jim,

You are only hearing part of Vance's business plan here. I'll try to not muddy up the waters too much here.

Just like you can buy a wide price range of aircraft from Ultralight to a jet. They all address a certain market. That depends on one's interest and available funds.

Vance's plan, as I recall, addressed a certain niche group. I think he addressed it exceptionally well. Larry Neal with the interest he has generated with the "Flying Motorcycle" proves to me Vance hit the nail on the head.

[okikuma]

Hi Vance,

Way cool! I like it!

Never stop dreaming or reduce your dreams because of a setback. When we stop dreaming, we stop living. So, keep on dreaming Vance!

Chuck: I've told Vance this bit of information several times about Wilbur Wright.

When Wilbur was a teen, he was hit in the head with a hockey puck (other sources say in the face with a hockey stick). The result of being hit was that Wilbur suffered some level of traumatic brain injury, As a result, his personality changed from outgoing to withdrawn and acted with slow mentation (as many would say, became a slow talker). Even though, this didn't effect Wilbur's mechanical intellect and his ability to use logic and deductive reasoning to solve aerodynamic problems. Thus, Wilbur reasoned out his thoughts more completely before speaking and worked out many of his ideas before explaining. Vance does the same now as Wilbur did then. Like many, I also see much intellect in Vance and I enjoy talking with him and learning from him. Vance will argue that he learns more from me that I from him, but I'm going to keep disagreeing with him.

Wayne

[RotoPlane]

Gosh Vance….you were and still are ahead of your time! I have no doubt that even with that price, that neat gyro would sell. Too bad you weren't able to make at least one. Those graphic presentations are right up there with the best that I've seen. Your business plan is still sound…..money isn't everything, but it sure makes the world go around.

[Vance]

You remember well Chuck.

Thank you for the kind words.

Hello Wayne, it may be that I think slowly so I talk slow.

I am grateful for all you have taught me.

Thank you Ed that is a very nice thing for you to say.

Victor did a great job on the web page and we have never even spoken. He would show me what he had done and I would email him back with what I wanted changed. He is a remarkable person and English is not his first language and the Harley Davidson culture was completely foreign to him. Victor lives in France.

This was a market based design and part of what I have learned is that I prefer a gyroplane with more capabilities.

As a senior management person at Harley Davidson Motor company always reminds me, “Who will buy the second 100.” My tastes tend to run outside of the main stream.

I would love to see how far the performance limitations of a gyroplane could be pressed.

Your designs are much more innovative than this flying motorcycle.

I would like to see a bunch of chopters show up at Daytona or Sturgis and ride into town.

How it looked in front of the Bar was more important to my aeronautical engineer than how it flew. He felt that people would spend more time on the ground than in the air. He had always been frustrated by the lack of money in aviation.

Thank you, Vance

P.S.
I forgot to mention I have a Harley Davidson Twin Cam engine sitting on the floor that put out 115 horsepower on a water brake and with that engine I felt that it could easily carry a passenger just like on a motorcycle.

[PW_Plack]

...Do we really need to make this a sport for the rich? Some of these ideas are really good but you need to put your expertise in to making a gyro for the masses if you want more people to get in to this sport..

Jim, with all due respect, what's been missing from the marketplace is not the low end, but gyroplanes which appeal to people accustomed to serious aircraft, produced by companies which have the margins needed to promote themselves and stay in business. Magnis, MTs, ELAs and the rest are selling strong in Europe during a recession at prices higher than $59K US.

You can't even buy a new engine and set of blades for much less than $10K now, and people keep asking for whole machines cheaper than that. If you find one, it's a pretty safe bet the company that sold it to you won't be around long.

[aerialvisitor]

Hi Vance:

In a previous post under General Discussion, New Categories, I stated that the gyroplane won't become mainstream until the image of the gyroplane is changed from a “joy toy” to a “personal” utilitarian aircraft. I asked members to suggest ways that the gyroplane could be useful as a personal utilitarian machine, and even gave a short list of suggestions. However nobody responded. So I was left with two impressions: 1.) People are totally satisfied owning the gyroplane for personal sport flying ONLY, and 2.) there is still a tremendous opportunity out there for someone to come along and develop the industry much like Dennis Fetters did with Air Command. As far as I know, nobody sold more of them than he did. But until a utilitarian value can be realized with a gyroplane (much like the European models offer), the only gyroplanes that will be sold here will be the "cheap and easy" models for sport flying using individual surplus funds. That's my opinion, and like noses, everyone's got one:)

Dave

[Russ Hobbs]

I agree with Wayne, way cool. I love the design, and would love to see concept turned reality. You can tell from the reactions here you've captured everyone's interest. I hope you have the opportunity to finish this project, never say never.

Russ

[tadgyro]

:yo: to you Vance
Teddy

[Heron]

Sun-N-Fun 2004, Vance?
You with a funny hat looking at the Butterfly booth, it seems so long ago and it was only 5 years back, another lifetime . . .
Lots of money and effort spent and good progress on our machines, but educating the market still on the start line . . .none so far.
Top money customers will induce emulation and that will trickle down to other levels, comercial use of gyros is the goal, that will bring the money.
Heron

[Stoney]

:yo: to you Vance
Teddy

I agree 100% Vance. Your approach was very innovative. There may not be a large market for these now, but once a few of them are out there they would rapidly build a following. I'm glad that you kept the site up as a reminder and that you still have the dream.

[Vance]

Thank you for the kind words.

I feel it would have been a great adventure and a lot of work.

Getting as far along as I did was a great adventure and a lot of work.

There is a lot of responsibility to the dealer network once it has been created.

It would have been a lot of fun if I didn’t need to make money. At the time I felt that I was not likely to run out of money, it didn’t work out that way and this project was unrelated to my economic downfall. I needed to be in a position to lose $500,000 without an impact on my lifestyle.

I feel that the gyroplane business is very close to an oxymoron.

I have never been able to imagine a commercial market for experimental gyroplanes.

I don’t feel that the capabilities that the gyroplane I fly now makes it any less of a toy.

I love design and I find joy in each step of problem solving.

Dennis, who sold me the new heart for the Predator was the one who built the proof of concept re-drive complete with hydraulic pump drive and a clutch to stop the propeller for road use. It had the greatest engineering risk.

Smokey built the first airframe and as always it was a treat working with him.

Building the mold for the body and empennage was a wonderful learning experience that grew out of my Bonneville adventure.

I am still in touch with my aeronautical engineer and I am still friends with most of the people who advised me about how a gyroplane works. I learned a lot about airfoils.

Working with Victor was wonderful and he is still one of my favorite people.

I still use my doodle program and excel spread sheet for weight and balance. I use the things I learned to understand what is going on as I learn to fly my gyroplane.

I embarked on the Chopter adventure with what I had learned from design projects and business experience dating back to the sixties. I feel that knowledge is power and no knowledge is wasted. I make my living by working a few hours a week because of what I have learned along the way.

My focus on gyroplanes has been shifted by my passion for flying.

I hope to one day build a gyroplane of my own design and much of what I learned will be applicable. I do not intend to sell it so that changes the design parameters and performance targets.

The point I am trying to make is that even though the goal wasn’t reached I am glad I embarked on the adventure. I learned a lot and had a reason to interact with my friends. I am not in any way dissuaded from chasing my dreams or focused on what some may perceive as failure. For me it is about the journey.

Thank you, Vance

[StanFoster]

Jim- Vance is following his passion. We all are wired differently and he has a wonderful idea that I think would go over well with a stronger economy.

Its like my high school principal occasionally mentioning to me that I should have been an engineer instead of messing around with wood. He was trying to live the life he would want...and thought I should too. I finally told him I am going the way my passion is pulling me, and am loving it.

I see Vances concept very exciting...


Stan