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Dean_Dolph
09-18-2004, 09:57 AM
Brian, I'm posting this here because (drum roll and pats on the back!) being the nice and thoughtful guy I am I didn't want to hijack the thread that you posted in the General Discussion forum about keel flex. It is a good and valid question and you gave the reason for it by saying that you are thinking about a composite tall tail for your Bee.

I guess you know that Ralph's Bee design is very, very close to the ultralight weight limit so by doing this you will put your Bee in jeopardy of breaking out of the ultralight class. If you are not concerned about that then there is no problem.

People tend to think that composite construction is lighter than other forms when in fact it can be heavier. While the foam used is relatively light, by the time you add in the mounting hardware, the fibre and the resin it can get heavy in a hurry.

In my mind the appeal of composites is the that sexy compound curves can be made easier than with metal, the surface is smoother and it is easier to build a structure with less seams which all add up to less drag. But for most people that isn't a factor since a gyro is so draggy in the first place.

Personally, if I ever get around to working on the 1 1/2 Bee kits I have, I will stick pretty close to the Watson tail design but will think about modifying it where there is a little more vertical fin and rudder area and move the horz stab up so that it is a little more immersed in the prop wash. It has been explained, and is understandable, that a horz stab in the prop wash performs like a tall tail. Doug R. has already mentioned doing this which, for me, verified my thinking. But by doing this I will also be making things heavier so I'll have to think seriously before making any mods since I do want to stay ultralight if at all possible.

Brian Jackson
09-18-2004, 07:20 PM
Dean,
Thanks.

Brian Jackson
09-18-2004, 07:40 PM
http://www.rotopix.com/gb/gborient.gif

Brent_Brown
09-19-2004, 05:31 AM
That will work. It is a more work than a tail like I have but I like it.

Doug Riley
09-20-2004, 09:20 AM
One must be very careful when designing this kind of tail. The gyro's mast is intentionally UNbraced. This allows the top end to flex and thereby isolate some of the inherent back-and-forth vibes given off by 2-blade rotors.

At the same time, the tail tube is also quite limber. In particular, it flexes up noticeably when the craft's weight is on it, and most certainly when you land firmly tail-first.

I know of at one incident (related to me, I think, by Ernie Boyette) where one of the pivots of a "modified" tall tail broke at the tail tube, leaving the bottom of the tail free to flop about in a very dangerous way.

Any structure of this type has to be tolerant of all the flexing and bending going on in the two members it's attached to.

Brent_Brown
09-20-2004, 02:12 PM
Rotopix are you going to be at ROC?

Brian Jackson
09-20-2004, 03:35 PM
One must be very careful when designing this kind of tail. The gyro's mast is intentionally UNbraced. This allows the top end to flex and thereby isolate some of the inherent back-and-forth vibes given off by 2-blade rotors.

At the same time, the tail tube is also quite limber. In particular, it flexes up noticeably when the craft's weight is on it, and most certainly when you land firmly tail-first.

I know of at one incident (related to me, I think, by Ernie Boyette) where one of the pivots of a "modified" tall tail broke at the tail tube, leaving the bottom of the tail free to flop about in a very dangerous way.

Any structure of this type has to be tolerant of all the flexing and bending going on in the two members it's attached to.

Thanks Doug.
I posted a thread in the General area specifically regarding the flexing moments of tail tubes for just this reason. If such a tail could be built, it would have to be soft-coupled considerably to allow for flexing loads on the airframe, otherwise the tail would shatter. Realistically it's an idea I'd like to research and experiment with, but not before learning to fly my bee with a conventional tail, and learning a great deal more about composite structures.

Thanks for the info.
Brian Jackson

Brian Jackson
09-20-2004, 04:01 PM
Rotopix are you going to be at ROC?

Hi Brent.
Unfortunately I can't be there. If I had some vacation time I'd sure like to attend, but I'm still kinda new on the job (1 week :D )

Cheers,
Brian Jackson

Doug Riley
09-21-2004, 04:46 AM
Brian: Good idea to build conventionally first. The Dominator tall tails use a pivot setup that can tolerate some flexing. The guy who had one break at the bottom had made the lower pivot more rigid. If I were designing one, I think I'd put rubber bushings at both pivots and also at the forward end of the "gaff" strut where it meets the mast.