old crash testing of wider chord rotor blade thread?

[GrantR]

I have seen reference to a fatal crash involving the testing of wider chord dragon wing rotor blades. I can not find a link to this thread. I search the entire accident forum and didn’t see it. I wanted to read about it and see what cause the blades to fail. The only bits I remember are the Rotor blades had a larger chord maybe 8” and something happened causing the gyro to enter a dive and the pilot could not pull back on the stick.

[MikeBoyette]

What you are decribing is a merging of two different accidents involving those blades. Incorrect information Grant. If you would like the truth and not some hog wash spread by the ignorant call me 813-843-2833.

[GrantR]

Will do Mike.

[MikeBoyette]

Won't be off till 7 Pm I will call you back after if you leave me a message. My AT&T cell phone doesn't work in this Verizon building. LOL

[GyroDoug]

Mike,

Rather than explain what happened in a private phone conversation that only Grant will hear, why not post your side of the story here on the forum so we all can understand what happened.

Now, my curiosity is peaked and I want to know and I'll bet lots of others would too. I suppose you don't have the time to talk to everyone individually so posting it here on this thread makes a lot of sense to me.

[Passin' Thru]

Mike,

Rather than explain what happened in a private phone conversation that only Grant will hear, why not post your side of the story here on the forum so we all can understand what happened.

Now, my curiosity is peaked and I want to know and I'll bet lots of others would too. I suppose you don't have the time to talk to everyone individually so posting it here on this thread makes a lot of sense to me.

I take the opposite position. An open forum such as this this is NOT the place to discuss an incident of this nature. There were some rather complex issues involved, both human and mechanical. Considering the wide spectrum of personalities and levels of technical understanding here, it could serve no constructive purpose, only confusion.

Mike, I stand behind you in this. Anyone who would care to discuss it with me one on one, may call me at area code (787) 869-0692.

[Master Roda]

Maybe a thread should be started about wider chord blades that fail due to construction method, and not a name brand.

[SnoBird]

I recall this crash, I believe it was ~11-12 years ago. At the time I was active on the old forum and I remember participating in the online conversation about the crash. From memory some guy (who's name escapes me) was flying a two place (I think a Parsons, but not sure) and experimenting with aluminum wide chord blades (as a way of carrying heavier payloads). He had flown the aircraft successfully by himself, but I believe it exhibited a slight reluctance to recover from a dive. The stick was heavy and had to pulled all the way back before it would respond and recover from a steep descent. At some point the "test pilot" landed and rather hurriedly grabbed what amounted to an innocent bystander (i.e. a person who did not really understand the risk he was taking by participating in test flights) and asked him to go for a ride (presumably to fully load the aircraft). They took off, gained a decent measure of altitude, started a turn (I think to the left?) and then were observed to go into a steep nose down descent. The descent was rapid and unabated until contact with the ground. I think the pilot was observed trying to pull back on the stick(?) during the fatal descent. The aircraft might have slightly corrected from the initial dive but then went in after that(?).

I recall myself and others speculating on possible causes (which an emphasis on speculate). Too much flexibility in the pitch axis and/or insufficient airfoil reflexion for the blade loading were possible suspects. Abrubt changes in pitching moments at the tips as a result of compressibility effects (i.e. mach tuck) were also discussed. I don't know what was determined afterwards by the people directly involved. It would be interesting to hear the story again and whatever came out of the whole thing.

[MikeBoyette]

Once again the two crashes are getting merged. The Air Command was Bill Parsons and he had an aluminum stick that was on 5 or 6 machines prior that were crashed. He considered it his lucky stick. Dad did not like the idea of an aluminum stick on a 1500 lb machine so while it was at the shop he made Bill a 4130 stick. When witnesses saw the machine in Bill's hangar it had the old stick back on it. The day of the accident he had moved some things around which resulted in it being out of CG. This is the reason for unstable flight that was reported not the blades. He was bragging to people who were there how well the new blades flew. He moved the battery and was seen putting his lucky stick in a vise and bending it so it would clear the battery in it's new location. He then test flew said it was fine. He then took a passenger for a ride who had no flight time. The witnesses said he was over the trees and went into a dive and never pulled out. They crashed into a stand of pine trees and were both ejected from the machine. Bill died instantly and his passenger a few days later. Dad was asked by the NTSB and FAA to help with the invetigation. He arrived a few hours after the accident and found the cause pretty quickly. The aluminum stick was on the machine and was broken. The aluminum was torn in the front where and tool marks were present from the jaws of the vise. The investigators determined that the stick broke in flight. Bill was trying to pull back but had no control in pitch. The passenger had no flight time so he did not grab the rear stick to save them. As for the blades on the Marchetti the exact same blades flew on another Machetti for over ten years until recently when a roll over accident destoyed them. Dad has a set he continues to fly on his two place today. He decided to not produce these blades because when something new is put on a gyro and an accident happens the new thing is automatically blamed. He decided the tooling costs were not worth producing them and only ten to twelve sets were ever made.

[OuterMarker]

http://mentone98.8m.com/

was this the other accident at Mentone?

[SnoBird]

Mike, you're right it was the accident with Jamie Bodie I was thinking of. The two crashes happened around the same time frame, sorry for the confusion. Reading the above reference brought it back. Too bad the original thread on the old forum is not available to read.

[DennisFetters]

Once again the two crashes are getting merged. The Air Command was Bill Parsons and he had an aluminum stick that was on 5 or 6 machines prior that were crashed. not worth producing them and only ten to twelve sets were ever made

It was not an Air Command. It was a Parsons tandem Trainer, which is a stretched Bensen.

[scandtours]

After Bill Parsons accident some other gyro manuf sent the following
Emergency Bulletin.

WARNING - WARNING - WARNING - WARNING - WARNING


This bulletin is recommended as an immediate correction to a potential flight safety problem concerning the joystick on two place ...........Gyroplanes. The aluminum joysticks should be removed and discarded, and a new joystick fabricated from 4130 steel tubing with a wall thickness of 0.058". The reason for this action is the heavier machines import heavier control system loads, and there is potential to exceed the safe life of aluminum 6061-T6 joysticks. A note should be entered in the aircraft records that this bulletin has been completed when the joystick is changed to 4130. Owners and operators not having access to 4130 steel tubing with a 0.058" wall, may order raw material or a finished replacement part from ........... Future production kits will incorporate this change.

Giorgos.

[DennisFetters]

The reason the stick on Bills tandem failed, was because he tried to bend the stick forward while on the aircraft for more clearance, and put a slight kink in the metal. The people there when he did it told him to replace it, but he said it would be OK. A few flights later, it failed.

[MikeBoyette]

It was not an Air Command. It was a Parsons tandem Trainer, which is a stretched Bensen.

Dennis,
Did you ever see the machine he crashed? I did. It was an Air Command tandem not a Parsons. He may have re-used the N-numbers but it was most certainly a Mazda powered Air Command tandem. It was in my dad's shop a few days before that. Bill wanted to test fly the four bladed system that dad just built. Dad would not let Bill fly it until he built him a new stick. Bill did not like the four bladed system but eyed a set of the 8" blades on the rack and wanted to test fly them. We mounted and balanced a set, dad test flew them on his own machine, and then Bill flew them on his machine. Bill loved them and asked dad to let him test them some more and he would pay for them later.

[Doug Riley]

I think maybe a THIRD accident pattern is being mixed in here, too. There were some accidents in SxS Air Commands in Engalnd the late 80's. These were almost certainly PPOs, but the concept of PPO was locked inside just a few people's heads at the time.

The investigators (incorrectly, I think) blamed "pump handle" joysticks (those with a pitch pivot at the rear of the seat), among other things. The Florida owners of Air Command at the time came out with an "A.D." requiring a swap-out of the original aluminum pump-handle Air Command joystick for a Brock-style steel, walking-beam stick assembly designed (I believe) by Bill Parsons.

The PRA gyro design guidelines followed suit. For many years, they recommended avoiding pump sticks. They may still say that. It's a silly distraction from the real causes of PPO, which are mainly airframe and tail-feather layout.

As for aluminum sticks a la the original Air Command, I see nothing wrong with a properly-designed one on a light single-place gyro. Both Bensen's original overhead stick and his later, B-80 series joysticks, were built this way. I agree that one does not belong on a 1500 lb. machine unless the stick is much more heavily built that the typical 1" x.058-wall 6061-T6 tube used on light machines.

Back to topic: Some early Dragon Wings blades had just about no reflex (up-turned trailing edge) at all. Since their particular airfoil shape places the camber back from the leading edge compared to flat-bottomed foils, they have less need for reflex than the flat jobs. In most cases, the structural stiffness of the blades themselves is sufficent to resist twisting, even without any reflex.

The twisting moment is variable, though (it's a function of the square of the blade's airspeed, and that in turn is a function of both the gyro's own airspeed and RRPM). If the blades develop too much twisting moment on the advancing side (where their airspeed is the highest), the blades will de-pitch themselves in that sector of the rotor. The rotor's AOA will start to flatten out on its own. The effect is similar to hard forward stick -- a dive. That's likely what happened to Jamie Bodie and Sy Smith in the heavy Marchetti at Mentone.

[Vance]

Dennis,
He may have re-used the N-numbers but it was most certainly a Mazda powered Air Command tandem.

Hello Mike,

I am not familiar with the procedure for reusing an N number.

How does that work?

Was this crash in Dunnellon, Florida in 1985?

I was trying to identify it on the NTSB reports.

Thank you, Vance

[MikeBoyette]

Vance,
It's when someone crashes a gyro and the put the N-number on a new gyro and notates in their log book as engine change or something like that. This has been done by many, although not exactly legal. This crash was in 1997.It occured at Flagler County Airport near Daytona.
Doug,
I am not confusing Parson's accident with the accidents in England. I have a very good memory when it comes to this stuff. The 8" blades had a reflex in them. Once again the exact same blades were flown on Rick Martin's Marchetti for over ten years. They were wrecked recently during an accident in which Rick's student let the gyro get out of control and it rolled in to a canal after touchdown. My Dad is flying the same blades on his Subaru powered tandem and has had no problems. Don't you think these pitching problems you therorize about would have manfested themselves again?

[C. Beaty]

Was this crash in Dunnellon, Florida in 1985?

I was trying to identify it on the NTSB reports.

Thank you, VanceTry this:

NTSB Identification: ATL97LA048 .

[Vance]

Thank you Mike and Chuck.

[DennisFetters]

Dennis,
Did you ever see the machine he crashed? I did. It was an Air Command tandem not a Parsons. He may have re-used the N-numbers but it was most certainly a Mazda powered Air Command tandem. It was in my dad's shop a few days before that. Bill wanted to test fly the four bladed system that dad just built. Dad would not let Bill fly it until he built him a new stick. Bill did not like the four bladed system but eyed a set of the 8" blades on the rack and wanted to test fly them. We mounted and balanced a set, dad test flew them on his own machine, and then Bill flew them on his machine. Bill loved them and asked dad to let him test them some more and he would pay for them later.

It was a Parsons, not an Air Command;

http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_Results.aspx?NNumbertxt=254WP

[DennisFetters]

I think maybe a THIRD accident pattern is being mixed in here, too. There were some accidents in SxS Air Commands in Engalnd the late 80's. These were almost certainly PPOs, but the concept of PPO was locked inside just a few people's heads at the time.

There were five deaths in Commanders in the UK, and all five were being flown by people with no more than 5 hours of training, and then on very windy days. They all fit right in with the US accident report, right down the line. No training, or not enough, and flying in conditions exceeding their abilities.

None that I know of were SxS Commanders.

[MikeBoyette]

It was a Parsons, not an Air Command;

http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_Results.aspx?NNumbertxt=254WP

Dang it Dennis I saw the frigging machine. It may have an N-number on it from a Parsons but it was an Air-Command. I will attempt to find a picture of it to prove to you it was an Air-Command. It was made after you sold the company.

[bpearson]

I think maybe a THIRD accident pattern is being mixed in here, too. There were some accidents in SxS Air Commands in Engalnd the late 80's. These were almost certainly PPOs, but the concept of PPO was locked inside just a few people's heads at the time.

The investigators (incorrectly, I think) blamed "pump handle" joysticks (those with a pitch pivot at the rear of the seat), among other things. The Florida owners of Air Command at the time came out with an "A.D." requiring a swap-out of the original aluminum pump-handle Air Command joystick for a Brock-style steel, walking-beam stick assembly designed (I believe) by Bill Parsons.



I remember the CAA dragging some 'expert' over from the States at huge cost Doug who on these forums stated that he had returned from merry ole England having told the CAA that the fault lay with those 'pesky pump handle sticks'. He got jumped on and removed the post!

They nearly made me replace the pump stick on my machine despite that type of gyro having a perfect safety record over forty years!

[Doug Riley]

Mike, if the wide blades have a zero-pitching-moment airfoil, then my suggestion about the Smith-Bodie accident can be eliminated as a cause. You'd be back to the wide prop dragging the nose down, a control jam or some such other cause unrelated to the blades. The accident suspiciously resembles the Terry Eiland crash at B-Days a few years ago, whose cause was never found.

Airfoil software programs these days, I understand, can calculate the pitching moment of a given airfoil shape. The data you have to put in would be the shape of the airfoil, expressed purely in numbers. It requires college-level math to do the calculations by hand. Either way, you'd start with an accurate tracing of the airfoil's profile. The math is explained in the Abbott and von Doenhoff classic textbook.

I have a nerdy math-teacher friend who thinks Fourier-series formulas are fun and easy. If your Dad wants me to take a run at the math with this guy's help, let me know and send me a tracing.

[MikeBoyette]

Doug,
He wishes people would just let sleeping dogs lie.

[Doug Riley]

Fair enough.

[Rotor Rooter]

Grant,

This section out of HELICOPTER ENGINEERING may be of some value. Blade Balance (http://www.Unicopter.com/Blade_Balance.html)

A question to the knowledgeable;
Does the last paragraph, in the above link, mean that a blade that is VERY stiff in the out-of-plane direction (vertical bending) (flapping?) will have a strong resistance to flutter? In other words, does the above stiffness negate a need for torsional stiffness when reducing flutter?

Is his reference to 'flapping' have to do with a flapping hinge at the root of the blade or flapping (bending) within the blade?

Thanks,
Dave

[RICK MARTIN]

For the record, Rick Martin never owned or instructed in a Marchetti. That was Robert Martian in Hobe Sound Florida.

I did however start my training in that very Marchetti. And had that been all there was to flying a gyro I would have taken up bull fighting or something.

Thank God for Dave Seace and his wonderful tandem Dominator/Hirth.

I still love you Mike.

[Hognose]

Martin, Martian... ain't nothing but a band of asteroids between 'em.

Like Vance I was looking through the gyro mishaps. Parsons's accident doesn't show up there because the FAA didn't code it as gyroplane.

I did notice a lot of accidents I clicked on at random were real Darwin Award contenders. "Despite advice from others at the airport, he was determined to teach himself." Yep, that'll teach 'im alright.

One guy had a forged medical and license in his cold dead pocket. Proof it's not quite as good as a real one. I think that was in one of Dennis's machines -- looking at some of those accidents there was a real problem with suicidally overconfident Commander driver-wannabees, around about the time Commanders supplanted Bensens in the statistics.

I've said it before until you guys are sick of it, but money spent on training is the wisest money you'll spend -- in any field of aviation or at any level. Money saved by skimping on training ought to be invested at the local monument carver.

It is not the machine's fault if the pilot blunders himself to death.

cheers

-=K=-

[DennisFetters]

I've said it before until you guys are sick of it, but money spent on training is the wisest money you'll spend -- in any field of aviation or at any level. Money saved by skimping on training ought to be invested at the local monument carver. It is not the machine's fault if the pilot blunders himself to death.

Wisely said, and true.

[Friendly]

Hognose,
In these two accidents the pilots were trainers , weren't they?

[Friendly]

Dennis,
Did you ever see the machine he crashed? I did. It was an Air Command tandem not a Parsons. He may have re-used the N-numbers but it was most certainly a Mazda powered Air Command tandem. It was in my dad's shop a few days before that. Bill wanted to test fly the four bladed system that dad just built. Dad would not let Bill fly it until he built him a new stick. Bill did not like the four bladed system but eyed a set of the 8" blades on the rack and wanted to test fly them. We mounted and balanced a set, dad test flew them on his own machine, and then Bill flew them on his machine. Bill loved them and asked dad to let him test them some more and he would pay for them later.

Mike,
I just watched the video of Bill Parson testing the Mazda engine on a Parsons trainer, Was the Parsons trainer crashed and then the Mazda was place on an Air Command frame? If so what happend to the Parsons.

[MikeBoyette]

For the record, Rick Martin never owned or instructed in a Marchetti. That was Robert Martian in Hobe Sound Florida.

I did however start my training in that very Marchetti. And had that been all there was to flying a gyro I would have taken up bull fighting or something.

Thank God for Dave Seace and his wonderful tandem Dominator/Hirth.

I still love you Mike.

Sorry. You are correct. I did get names mixed up.

[MikeBoyette]

Mike,
I just watched the video of Bill Parson testing the Mazda engine on a Parsons trainer, Was the Parsons trainer crashed and then the Mazda was place on an Air Command frame? If so what happend to the Parsons.

Mark,
I am not sure of the circumstances. I just remember thinking "how odd Bill Parsons is flying an Air Command". It was a beast.

[C. Beaty]

Bill Parsons served as Red Smith’s technical expert and accompanied him to the UK where they straightened out the CAA about pump handle sticks.

Bill was also the “designer” of the Air Command C-147A that killed CFI Jim DiGaetano. The C-147A used a Rotorway cabin with Mazda rotary mounted nearly on the keel with long belts driving the propeller jackshaft mounted in the Rotorway doghouse.

NTSB ID# FTW98FA310 .

[Friendly]

The video I saw was Bill Ortmayor's ground school and they were doing the thrust test of the Mazda at 750#s. I don't have any ideal about how old any of that was. I have only been around the gyros since 2002. I hope I have the health when I retire to make the flyin circuit.

[DennisFetters]

Bill was also the “designer” of the Air Command C-147A that killed CFI Jim DiGaetano. The C-147A used a Rotorway cabin with Mazda rotary mounted nearly on the keel with long belts driving the propeller jackshaft mounted in the Rotorway doghouse. .

Gary Deterring (?spelling) was the designer of, what I called the "Air Ca-bam!!". (looked like an Air Command a$$ended into a Rotorway)

Gary worked for Rotorway for many years, and started working for Red.

[SnoBird]

I'm surprised to hear Bill Parsons was so apparently irresponsible, and frankly, incompetent. I thought he was generally regarded as a respected gyro pioneer who unfortunately met a premature demise from a momentary lapse of reason. I recall seeing the Hiller XROE-1 Rotorcycle at a US Navy museum and it had a "Parsons" decal on its rotor blades.

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/helicopters/hiller/xroe1.jpg

Considering this thing was built in the 50's, if it was Bill Parsons who built those blades, then he'd have been making major components for small rotorcraft for a long time prior to his death. Which makes his death from such an obviously bad call all the more surprising.

[Friendly]

I think Mr. Parsons was credited with trying to build a two place trainer so the student and CFI could train in a "like aircraft" and he also had something to do with the supermac conversions. I did not know he built rotorblades. It does not seem like he would be buying Ernies if he was building his own. But then I would like a set of Ernies if I was building my own. I would like sportcopters also and McClutchens

[gyroplanes]

I sure wouldn't call Bill Parsons "apparently irresponsible, and frankly, incompetent" and neither would the people disparaging him here, if he were alive.

There is a lot of mis-information in this thread, please treat it all as fiction.

Good people died, good people got hurt and good people made mistakes. No one got sued, and no one pointed fingers until later when stories changed.

It is best for all concerned to let the sleepy hound rest.

[gyroplanes]

In memoriam: Helicopter Industry Pioneer Keith Harvey

1928 – 2008

Keith Harvey, a Helicopter Industry Pioneer, died on April 22, 2008 at the age of 80. Keith Harvey was born in Grant Township, Michigan on March 26, 1928 and was united in marriage to Thomasina Williams Harvey on December 5, 1947.

Keith Harvey began his career in 1947 while still in his teens and attending college, working for Parsons Corporation in Traverse City Michigan manufacturing the Sikorsky R4 tail rotor blades and the Bell 47 main rotor wood blades. Until 1956, he managed the Bell 47 and Hiller main rotor blade production and was involved in the development of the Hiller Hornet main rotor blade, Hiller Flying Platform blade, Schnitzer Flying Platform blade, Parsons Fiberglass blade, Westland Skeeter main rotor blade and numerous other experimental projects.

Keith started the first FAA approved rotor blade repair station for Parsons of California in 1956. During the Vietnam War, they repaired thousands of Huey blades that were loaded on C5’s at Stockton Field and flown directly to Vietnam. During the later part of his career at Parsons of California, they began building bonded structures, including the space gondolas, OSO Satellite orbital solar panels, large structures to transport the F1 Saturn engines to Cape Canaveral in the Pregnant Guppy and other projects for the space program.

In 1972, Keith started his own rotor blade repair facility, Composite Technology Inc., located in Stockton, California. In the coming years CTI added facilities in Dallas, Texas; Winnipeg, Manitoba, Highpoint, North Carolina; Madrid, Spain, and Singapore. During this time, he aggressively developed new technology and rotor blade repair techniques with one goal in mind, better and faster rotor blade repair without compromising quality. Several of his innovative ideas are still being used by the manufacturers today.

Keith completed his pilot training and received his pilot’s license in 1978. He owned and restored a number of aircraft including a De Havilland Tiger Moth and Bell 47D helicopter. In recent years, he has enjoyed working with the Hiller Museum and Classic Rotors on numerous helicopter restoration projects. He donated and loaned several helicopters to support these projects.

After CTI was sold in 1990, he “retired” and started farming cherries and grapes in the Central Valley of California.

In 1996 Keith and a group of friends founded Rotor-Tech International, another successful FAA certified rotor blade repair facility.

Keith was also a member of many aeronautical organizations including Helicopter Association International, Twirly Birds, Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association, Hiller Aviation Museum and Institute and the Bell 47 Helicopter Association.

He received well deserved recognition from the National Guard for Contributing to National Security and Protecting Liberty and Freedom.

Keith Harvey was an enthusiastic, innovative and highly productive leader of the aviation community for almost six decades and he will be missed by everyone.

[written by Cecilia Stitt, President of Rotor-Tech International]

Either way, they were not related to Bill Parsons. Bill was from Tennessee and then "retired" to Florida. Bill and Dave Prater were responsible for a lot of improvements and dyno testing the MAC engine.

[C. Beaty]

Bill Parsons was a farm machinery mechanic who worked for a large Florida agricultural company, A. Duda & Sons, Inc for a number of years.

[SnoBird]

I sure wouldn't call Bill Parsons "apparently irresponsible, and frankly, incompetent" and neither would the people disparaging him here, if he were alive. There is a lot of mis-information in this thread, please treat it all as fiction. Good people died, good people got hurt and good people made mistakes. No one got sued, and no one pointed fingers until later when stories changed. It is best for all concerned to let the sleepy hound rest.

I have no desire to disparage Bill Parsons, never met the man. I also have a few hours of instruction in one of his two place aircraft (of which I'm grateful for). That's why I'm surprised to see first hand accounts from people who are knowledgeable about gyros that seem to definitively lay the cause of the accident at his feet (and specifically to gross negligence). And if those statements are true, I'm afraid there's no way around it, considering his actions of putting another person at risk (resulting in their death too). I assume you were also there and know otherwise that the "stick incident" didn't happen as advertised? If not, than what did cause the fatal crash?

Thanks for the info about Parsons of California, obviously just a coincidence they had the same name.

[C. Beaty]

I assisted the Feds during the investigation of Bill’s accident.

The broken stick had a series of internal circumferential gouges where it had been slipped over a steel bar for bending. The bar was sawn off square without radius.

It broke at one of the gouge lines.

[MikeBoyette]

I think Mr. Parsons was credited with trying to build a two place trainer so the student and CFI could train in a "like aircraft" and he also had something to do with the supermac conversions. I did not know he built rotorblades. It does not seem like he would be buying Ernies if he was building his own. But then I would like a set of Ernies if I was building my own. I would like sportcopters also and McClutchens

He did not build rotor blades. He was flying a set of my dad's 8" prototype blades at the time of the accident. These blades were never put into production.

[Friendly]

Mike I was responding to a previous thread about Parsons Decals and as I said I did not know of Bill building rotor blades. Tom has posted an very informative article on another gentleman named Parsons who did repair blades.
As you and Pete said, this thread will cause more confusion than clarification.

[MikeBoyette]

10-4 sorry