Two Place Little Wing.

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

Today I received the plans for the Little wing.

The first thing I did was look at the video and fast fowarded to the Radial Engine part.

Even if I have to rebuild the Radial every one hundred hours that is what I want in my machine. ;D ;D ;D

Hopefully I will get the time to get a flight training school going with this machine.

Chuck E.

[Screw]

Chuck,

I feel the same way. I too saw a video with the radial, and that senched it up for me as well. Good luck on your project.

John Stevens-

[GyroRon]

Truth be told... If I were in the same boat as you two, I would probably be tempted to go Radial too. It looks and sounds cool.

But no matter what, I still say the smart choice is the Rotax 912S. It is quieter, and probably more economical, and I am willing to bet more trouble free in the long run and will likely hold a higher resale value.

But that video is addictive. Makes that Radial look like the only choice.

[Hognose]

A couple more things to think about.

The Rotec Radial is really pretty quiet, especially with the collector ring exhaust. I'd have to a/b it next to a Rotax. The pitch of the engines is quite different, with the geared Rotax being more of a buzz (but less so than the high-revving 2-strokes).

Rotax is part of Bombardier Recreational Products, which was just sold. That adds up to a degree of uncertainty -- but in all honesty, not too great a degree, because the motors were moneymakers before.

Rotax service is widely available but IMHO parts availability is slow, and warranty service hasn't always been good. OTOH parts availability on the Rotec; you have a single source, and if the manufacturer is not in stock on the part you have to wait till they tool for it, as they build in batches.

cheers

-=K=-

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

Hognose :

If you were building one, what would you put in it? ;D

[Screw]

As far as Hydrolic Lock up, I think I read somewhere that if you turn the prop 3-4 times in the opposite direction of travel, this will move some of the oil from the bottom cylinders to the top ones prior to starting.

Or, just remove the plugs from the bottom cylinders and allow the oil to drain. Clean plugs, re-fill oil, and begin you start-up procedures.

Don't know how accurate any of this is, but I think I read this in a Dec. 1998 issue of Kit-Planes with regards to the 985 radial installed in a Griffin "Lionheart." (Modern Stagger Wing).

John-

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

Well John, first you can forget the hydraulic lock problem because in the unlikely event you do get a lock it is easy to fix, either gently move the prop to see if you can drain the cylinder or pull a plug and that fixes it.

The oil consumption is another non problem.

Whoever told you that radials have a signifigant gyroscopic effect in turns are full of s.it.

I have around fifteen thousand hours on many different radials and find the radial an easier engine to maintain than the others.

Furthermore had God meant for us to have flat engines Pratt and Whitney would have made them. ;D

My only concern would be support from the factory, and before I buy one I will look at that end of it.

Another real advantage to the Radial is the noise seems to be lower than the other engines availiable..

Chuck

[GyroRon]

Why is this thread in the training section?

Todd! move it to the Little wing area!

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

I put it here because I plan on being the first to offer flight training in a little Wing.

Sooner or later someone will start talking about the advantages and disadvantages of offering flight training in a tractor.

So that was why I put it in this thread and I think it should remain here so we can discuss a School using one of these. ;D

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

Steven.

What I meant to say is that gyroscopic effect is not related to radial engines anymore than to any other piston engine.

All aircraft with propellors are subject to gyroscopic effect when changing direction or changing pitch attitude, the bigger the engine and prop in relation to the airplane the more noticable will be the effect and is in direct relation to the rate of change of direction.

The most difficult airplane that I have flown for directional problems in relation to torque, and gyroscopic effect was a turbo prop Goose and that was due to the power to weight and placement of the engines and the short coupled airplane..

I have no idea what you have flown but in all my experience I can not remember any one instance where a radial exibited any different directional control problems than any other planform of engine.

So if I am missing something that would make a radial more prone to gyroscopic effect than any other engine of the same power please explain it to me.

Anyhow I am only relating my experiences with radials and I prefeer them to other piston engines.

Also as well as fly them I have also worked on them for decades and find them easier to maintain than flat engines.

Then again I guess everyone to his own preferences.

Chuck

[Al_Hammer]

Maybe the radials got the reputation for gyroscopic forces from the WWI radial engine which had a different design than used today.

From what I've read, the crankshaft was bolted to the firewall and the cylinders rotated(for improved cooling), thus the rotating mass was large.
The modern radial has no large rotating mass and the prop is the main contributor to gyroscopic forces as Chuck said.

[gyromike]

Al,

You're probably thinking of the Gnome Rotary engines of Sopwith Camel fame:

http://www.aviation-history.com/engines/rotary-theory.htm

Here's an excerpt:

The demise of the rotary came about for several reasons. Among the most important of these was the large rotating mass of the engine which produced gyroscopic forces. These forces had their useful features - if the pilot could master them before something happened to lessen his desire to fly. It provided the Sopwith Camel with remarkable turning power. However, the engine also delivered sharp torque reversals when the ignition was cut which was tough on the engine mounts and the airframe

Not to mention, the pilots having a good case of the squirts after inhaling all of that unburnt Castor oil sprayed in their faces!

[Al_Hammer]

Wow, the squirts indeed. :o
Great article. Thanks Mike.

To add to the realism now when you use a flight sim,
pop a few EX-LaX while flying the WWI planes. ;D

[Screw]

I think someone confused a radial and a rotary engine.

John-

[Roundwing]

Hi Chuck,
I just came across this thread and was wondering how the Little wing was coming along?
How about the Rotec radial, is that what you are putting on it?
Tried to pm you but your message box is full.

Rick

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

Rick:

I was far to busy over the past few years flying in Europe to even think about building another gyro.

Now that I am sort of retired I am in the process of building a homebuilt Cub to put on floats.

So the bottom line is my plans for the Little Wing are in my shop, maybe some day I will get motivated to build one.

Chuck E.

[Roundwing]

Chuck,
What were you flying in Europe?
Where were you operating out of?
Cub on floats sounds like fun. I have plans for a Hatz but have put it on hold until I get a chance to look these gyros over and get some stick time in them.

Rick

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

" Chuck,

What were you flying in Europe?

For the past ten years I was flying in the air show circuit all over Europe, and as well doing flight training and part time charter flying and aircraft ferry service all over the world.

I flew the PBY, DC3, Boeing 767-300, Pitts S2B and the Super Decathalon.

Where were you operating out of?

Our main base was London England but I was based in Paris and Leon France for three years and Amsterdam for three years.

Cub on floats sounds like fun. I have plans for a Hatz but have put it on hold until I get a chance to look these gyros over and get some stick time in them.

I live on Vancouver Island and now that I have retired from commercial flying so the Cub on floats is perfect for me.

Have you flown in a gyro yet?

[Roundwing]

Chuck,
No I have not had the chance to fly in a gyro yet. Hope to get a look at one or two next week. I don't think that I will be able to get a ride for a few months. I am looking forward to it.
I have been through Lyon FR many many times but never spent any time there. Are Lyon and Leon the same?
I was looking at the Wag Aero Sport Trainer plans but got the Hatz plans on e-bay for a good price.
Rick