Reducing Ground Accidnets.... Is there something more we can do? Ideas? [Archive]

barnstorm2

08-12-2009, 08:16 AM

In this topic another ground accident has been announced that claimed a life of a Rotary Forum member.

Earlier this year a new gyro owner died working on his newly purchased gyrobee.

A few years ago my friend Chuck Irby died from a prop strike while working on his Dominator.

I have not run any numbers but it seems like ground accidents might be surpassing in-air accidents.

The only thing I can think of is to write a short 'brochure' on ground safety and make it available as a free download from GyroWiki and the PRA web site.

Sellers could include it with the sale of gyros, new owners could download it.

Does anyone else have any ideas. That's all I have.

.

All_In

08-12-2009, 08:43 AM

Great idea Tim!!!
We got a lot of good projects we need more volunteers, guys!

GyroDoug

08-12-2009, 08:58 AM

Tim,

We could make that one of the Forum topics at each of our Events. I would suspect there would be enough interest in the topic to get a lot of people thinking more about it. The forum could include a list of accidents that have happened and suggestions on different ways to handle the situation that could have prevented the accident. I would sure go to something like that and I would think newbies to our sport would be interested in that also. If someone could work up a presentation it could be put into a power point presentation and then sent around to all the chapters. It could be given at chapter meetings and presented at as a Forum topic at Events.

Gyro Doug

All_In

08-12-2009, 09:01 AM

Right on Doug!
Accident reports is one of our online projects for the new content section open to the public!
We would love to post this on Gyro-wiki and PRA site too.

RICK MARTIN

08-12-2009, 12:22 PM

Now this is productive! Yes, once the document is created, each club can get it to the new guys and at each event it could be revisited for the good of all.

Way to go guys!

PW_Plack

08-12-2009, 01:16 PM

Guys, I agree with you completely, and found accident reports of great value in deciding whether I was comfortable with the extent to which I could control my own risks if I learned to fly.

But I have to mention that in the past, an emphasis on accident analysis in Rotorcraft was blamed by some for hurting both sponsorships and the sport at large. This needs to be approached properly to provide those wishing to learn the info that will help them, but not scare prospective pilots and their spouses so badly that they freak out and stay away.

I studied accident reports, literally, every day for months trying to figure out what really kills people. The NTSB says something like 80 percent of all fatals are caused by pilot error, but after reading all those accident reports, I think that's low.

Others look at accident reports and see only the outcomes, not the lessons in how to avoid them.

fiveboy

08-12-2009, 01:30 PM

Nt to put to fine a piont on this but of the PIC is responsible for everything being good to go.... barring a rare event, it would seem almost everything would be pilot error.

I suggest again that if everyone with a video camera made a 1-2 min video on some aspect of their flight routine or safety procedures and sent them in (for vetting) we would quickly have a valuable library of how to and how not to videos. Not fancy stuff - just right to camera.

All_In

08-12-2009, 02:14 PM

Minnesota_Mike

08-12-2009, 03:40 PM

This "brouchure" suggestion is a good idea.

One item that still amazes me even today is how many will spend time (some times hours never intending to fly) tweaking and working around an unsecured machine (not tied down, but some even with just wheel chocks).
A secure tie down is one little precaution (maybe even just chained to the trailer hitch on your vehicle) which can really be a life saver. I've read of so many injured when the machine gets up and moves...sometimes right into the person.
A buddy system is good too.
All the suggestions One can employ can only help keep disaster away.

M-M

barnstorm2

08-12-2009, 04:12 PM

Ok,

Here are some draft points. Please give feedback.

Also, if anyone has photos of people working around gyros please post them.

Idea: Make a safety sheet / brochure with descriptions of real accidents and a CHECKLIST of things to do before doing a ground run-up.

-Generally craft should be tied down

-Keep testing away from other aircraft

-Do not operate aircraft engine if you or a responsible person does not have a hand ON the kill switch at ALL times.

-The throttle is NOT a kill switch

-chocks are meant to keep parked aircraft in place from wind, not for engine operations.

-Tie down, even if you have 2 people when ever running engine above idle.

-Remember that the prop is invisible when running

-Pre-flight the aircraft just as you would before flying

-Remove loose objects from cockpit

-Check throttle and kill switch linkage and connections before operations

-Be ready on brakes, even if aircraft is tied down.

-Keep people away from work area, be sure no bystanders are present.

-Helpers should know what to do in-case of mishap.

Comments? Ideas?

.

Minnesota_Mike

08-12-2009, 04:19 PM

Good start Tim...

Here's one:
Keep the machine a minimum of the "rotor disc diameter plus" away from buildings or any stationary objects when spinning up Rotors.
(Obvious...but some don't bother to double check).
Make sure BEFORE they start spinning that all bystanders are at least THAT far away, and no more than TWO standing under the center area of the disc at one time.

Hognose

08-12-2009, 05:07 PM

- Always assume a propeller is just about to start spinning. That way, you won't be hurt if it does.

- Assume that pilots of other aircraft on ramps and taxiways can't see you, or aren't even looking.

- Resist complacency. Maintain positive control of the aircraft at all times. It can kill you at walking speed, or even standing still.

- If you do lose control of the aircraft while not aboard, let it go, don't chase it. It'll stop soon enough. Property damage is trivial compared to the injury you might receive.

- Learn enough first aid to treat yourself or another pilot for a prop or rotor strike. Call for emergency services first, then check ABC, try to stop bleeding, treat for shock.

scottessex

08-12-2009, 05:17 PM

Another habit to get into is NEVER walk through the prop arc, even when doing engine off maintenance, treat the prop like a gun, (it is never unloaded), The prop is never safe, and don't turn the prop unless the spark plug wire are disconnected, and never step behind the main wheels while the engine is running.
And for Gods sake don't ever work on a running engine unless it is tied down!

Always wear your seatbelt even if just taxiing, put your helmet on too.

karlbamforth

08-12-2009, 06:00 PM

-Tie down, even if you have 2 people when ever running engine above idle.

That should really be for every engine run, it is unexpected full throttle when you think it will be at idle that will kill you.

-Be ready on brakes, even if aircraft is tied down.

Ideally you would want the brakes on, failure of a tie down will be a sudden and violent event that will take you by suprise.

What you are producing here is basically a Safety Management System, these are now mandatory for Commercial operators. It is an excellent way to save life and reduce costs by warning everyone of the dangers.
Ideally it should extend to flying too, even the ones that say "don't tell me what to do" will be better informed by the simple fact we have brought the dangers to their attention. Shhhh don't tell them we are educating them they don't like that. :lol:

Chuck Roberg

08-12-2009, 06:05 PM

If you are flying a Sparrowhawk or an RAF always check the throttle position before starting the engine.

Both these machines have the throttle lever low below the pilots leg. It can not be seen when the pilot is seated in the aircraft. I have had a few occasions where the pilot or passenger getting in moves the throttle forward accidentally.

The pilot needs to reach down and check it before starting the engine. It needs to be part of the pre-start check list on all gyros. Not just Sparrowhawks or RAF's.

barnstorm2

08-12-2009, 06:28 PM

Great input!

Tomorrow I will start putting it together in a document and post draft.

Keep posting!

Minnesota_Mike

08-12-2009, 07:33 PM

Always purchase and use FRESH fuel when planning to fly...run the machine close to dry or at least very very low so you can top off with fresh the next flight.
Use a "Mr. Funnel" on all refueling to insure quality fuel is going in.

Try to always use a "buddy system" when planning to go out and fly. Bring an Adult as your primary "partner" and give 'em a Video camera (to keep 'em busy and so you get yourself some great shots) but primarily to aid you should the worst ever occur. (May God forbid)

Make certain they are briefed and have a ready made contact card of "Emergency" phone numbers IN HAND and a Cell Phone before you even start and fuel your machine.
Carry a "field" first aid kit in your vehicle and make sure that it's readily accessible just in case.
(Better: put it in a small back pack the "Partner" keeps nearby)

M-M

Vance

08-12-2009, 09:47 PM

Always purchase and use FRESH fuel when planning to fly...run the machine close to dry or at least very very low so you can top off with fresh the next flight.

M-M

Hello Mike, it is my opinion that a nearly empty tank promotes condensation.

Thank you, Vance

helipaddy

08-13-2009, 01:03 AM

Tim,
Thank you for putting the effort into this. It is very worthwhile to try and reduce any accident or incident on the ground.

From my relatively limited experience flying gyroplanes, an incident on the ground is the phase of operation of a gyroplane that really worries me. Its just too easy to have a runaway aircraft, or your or somebody elses head taken off with a spinning rotor.

My worry is that the people most at risk of an incident on the ground will not read the code of practise.

They know better.

I think that there are a few things that we can do to make it safer,

One of the things that may be worthwhile is to set up a short PRA Attitude and Decision Making course that is completed by the student during training with their Instructor.

This short course informs the student on possible hazardous attitudes and decisions made by pilots of gyroplanes which may cause the death of themselves or others.

The Instructor has informed the student and should reasonably expect that the student will conduct themselves safely with the new information gained. If the student does not seem to take the safety of themselves and others, and the reputation of all gyroplane pilots seriously they have no business in the sport.

You will also find that the students attitude to the course and content will give the instructor an insight into the suitability of the student to safe gyroplane flying.

The instructor can decide then to continue training or ask the student to take up a more suitable pastime.

Links:

http://www.aopa.org/asf/product/decision.html

http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/systemsafety/pubs/pdm/menu.htm

http://oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=ADA260695

http://www.sjflight.com/images/propwatcher.pdf

http://www.aopa.org/asf/publications/sa06.pdf

http://www.procockpit.com/mission-flight.htm

And a propeller safety quiz:

http://www.aopa.org/asf/asfquiz/quizzes.cfm?SA=Quizzes&QuizId=72&WT.mc_id=&wtmcid;&WT.mc_sect=sap

Paddy

pilotescort

08-13-2009, 04:12 AM

This might be going abit too far, but for those machines that use a clutch on the redrive it might be advantagous to PLACE SAFETY CONES BEHIND THE MAIN GEAR when starting up. The prop doesn't spin immediately on engine start-up, which is good for the engine but bad for a stupid unseen bystander.

All accidents are "pilot error" one way or another simply by over-looking something. Failure to maintain control; failure to thoroughly pre-flight; failure to not do this or not do that. Nobody is perfect, so accidents happen.

PPG Doug

08-13-2009, 05:19 AM

The forum could include a list of accidents that have happened and suggestions on different ways to handle the situation that could have prevented the accident.
Gyro Doug

When I flew Powered Paragliders, probably the biggest website for info sharing, as The Rotary Forum is to Gyros, was WWW.USPPA.ORG. One of the links on that forum was to INCIDENTS http://www.usppamembers.org/incidents/incident_list_public1.cfm .

This was a self reporting format where a pilot or witness would report an incident/accident to that sites' administrator and it would be posted for all to see. It was a way for everyone to learn from the mistakes of others.

An Incident Thread could easily be added here on our site...

barnstorm2

08-13-2009, 08:04 AM

I am now workiing on the first draft of the brochure at lunch.

If any one has photos of people working on gyros could you please email them to me or post them here??

Thanks!

Vance

08-13-2009, 08:06 AM

I am pleased that some here on the forum are paying attention to this very expensive lesson.

My hanger mate, John Ready, chains his Acrosport to the hanger while he hand props her and has a release in the cockpit that he uses once he is secure and ready to taxi.

When I would start a SparrowHawk according to the procedures, I would make a mental note of what to do if the engine ran away because my hand was already on the key/ method of stopping the engine. It is easy to forget that the ignition switch is quicker and go for the throttle with the same hand, leaving behind the option of turning off the key quickly.

I have had run away engines on other vehicles and the noise is very intimidating and it is easy to freeze long enough to exacerbate the challenge.

When I start the Lycoming on the Predator, both the lean cut off and the magneto ground switches are close at hand. I practice shutting things down with my eye shut.

Only the left magneto is ungrounded but I am aware that it is easy to have problems with the P leads. Part of what I learn from the magneto check is that the P leads are working. If either magneto didn’t have an RPM drop I would not fly until I had located the source of the challenge and fixed it.

Any aircraft is a very unfamiliar place for someone with limited aviation experience. Brakes, throttle and steering are not where they are expected to be and work in an unfamiliar way. In my experience this unfamiliarity causes a delay in appropriate response.

I find benefit in writing emergency procedures for the Predator and practicing them when there is not an emergency. An example would be for engine runaway; Lean cut off full back, throttle full back, magneto switches forward, toe brakes equally on, look for the least expensive thing to hit.

Thank you, Vance

Doug Riley

08-13-2009, 09:08 AM

I would add "When servicing your aircraft, do not use the aircraft as a resting place for tools or parts. It is too easy to forget them and have one pass through the prop upon startup."

A screwdriver of mine is probably still in low earth orbit as a result of disobeying this rule. Didn't help the prop much, either.

Also, many carburetors make a distinctive "click" when the throttle is reduced to idle. Listen for this click from the carb when you put the throttle at idle before startup, to confirm that the throttle control has worked. Carbs such as the Bing slide unit can stick; if this occurs, it will not be obvious from the feel of the throttle handle.

barnstorm2

08-13-2009, 10:16 AM

Here is the first draft.

I know fonts are messed up and things are not aligned and the address is missing.

Before I get all that right I want to see if the content passes muster.

This is a Tri-fold brochure, made to be printed on both sides of a piece of paper.

Please comment.

Timchick

08-13-2009, 10:32 AM

This might be going abit too far, but for those machines that use a clutch on the redrive it might be advantagous to PLACE SAFETY CONES BEHIND THE MAIN GEAR when starting up. The prop doesn't spin immediately on engine start-up, which is good for the engine but bad for a stupid unseen bystander. .......

Could you explain this one? If you start to taxi away won't the cones have a chance of getting chopped up?

j bird

08-13-2009, 12:19 PM

Tim, I think your right. Them cones are going through the prop.

Buzzard

08-13-2009, 01:01 PM

I like it. Simple and to the point. Not overloaded with too much info. Perhaps though, another additional question could be included such as, " Do you alwys practice SAFE START-UP procedures? "

helipaddy

08-13-2009, 01:24 PM

Great work Tim.

Maybe state that it is best practise to have a pilot in the seat.

All_In

08-13-2009, 01:56 PM

Way to go Tim! PRA rocks!
'Let me know when it's a final copy and I'll publish it on the current PRA site too.

barnstorm2

08-13-2009, 02:33 PM

I like it. Simple and to the point. Not overloaded with too much info. Perhaps though, another additional question could be included such as, " Do you alwys practice SAFE START-UP procedures? "

good idea. will do.

Great work Tim.

Maybe state that it is best practise to have a pilot in the seat.

Will do, thanks!

Way to go Tim! PRA rocks!
'Let me know when it's a final copy and I'll publish it on the current PRA site too.

Because it has the PRA logo....

Once I have a final draft I have to post a copy for the board and prez to look at. If no objections then we are go.

Same with the MySpace and Facebook, once we are done I have to post the info to make sure there are no objections.

Please keep up the input! I plan to finish it tomorrow during my lunch.

.

pilotescort

08-13-2009, 04:37 PM

Could you explain this one? If you start to taxi away won't the cones have a chance of getting chopped up?

The placement of cones would be the triangle's point BEHIND the prop, before the tail and out a bit from the main gear, or outside the VS of a twin-tail. I don't believe they would get "sucked into the prop" being 5' away from the prop downwind, and probably wouldn't even be blown over as you pull away. Cones have heavy bases that keep them pretty stable. It's a visual "Hazard Area", especially with one on each side.
It's just an idea to potentially save a BODY from getting chopped up.

karlbamforth

08-13-2009, 04:49 PM

All_In

08-13-2009, 05:31 PM

Excellent so far.

I'm not too sure PRA will want their name attached, liability etc.

My Question.
Can we supersize it.

What about web pages dedicated to gyro safety.

It can include the accident/incident reports mentioned by someone earlier.
It could include all the advice so far about where to put tools, duplicate inspections of critical components, what to do if.......... happens.

I am thinking along the same lines as the leaflet but much more in depth.

Any Thoughts ??

One of PRA's projects is just that. See: http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22279
Actually your idea is split into two sections, in project 3) ii) and x)
Here's an excerpt:

3) New Public Content Online “eZine”

a. The good news the department head positions are filled with really knowledgeable folks.
b. We need researcher looking for articles and press releases for new technologies that apply to rotorcraft and flying. Here are the new sections we are looking for:
...
ii. Near Misses (Accident reports, how a bad situation got saved).
...
x. How to: How not To! (Safety articles)

karlbamforth

08-13-2009, 05:53 PM

Excellent, good to see. It can only help to improve the safety of our sport.

barnstorm2

08-18-2009, 01:30 PM

Looks like the rest of the BOD liked it!

Duane Hunn added some good missing points.

I will be sending a copy to AllIn for the PRA web site.

Thanks everyone!

Steve McGowan

08-18-2009, 06:00 PM

The pamplets look good Tim,, but will it put extra expense on the PRA budget sine there is already a movement to stop the mag..

Next thing is that new pilots or students need a more recognisable reference for safety reasons.. such as an armband etc..

The Airboss, whomever it may be has long hours trying to assist those already on the runway... (It's NOT Fair to Bill or Rodney) Safety personell should be assigned to help with matters from the hangar down to the runway..

I'm not saying this to vent or a gripe session, we were fortunate not having a fatality this year.. I spoke my mind at the meeting, and meant every word of it. There's no forgiveness for being careless and unsafe.

Now we have a chance to make it much better and safer for everyone at Mentone..

Your headed in a good direction...

Thanks Tim

Timchick

08-18-2009, 07:11 PM

The placement of cones would be the triangle's point BEHIND the prop, before the tail and out a bit from the main gear, or outside the VS of a twin-tail. I don't believe they would get "sucked into the prop" being 5' away from the prop downwind, and probably wouldn't even be blown over as you pull away. Cones have heavy bases that keep them pretty stable. It's a visual "Hazard Area", especially with one on each side.
It's just an idea to potentially save a BODY from getting chopped up.

How would someone carry the cones to other airfields when flying on cross country flights?

barnstorm2

08-19-2009, 04:59 AM

The pamplets look good Tim,,

but will it put extra expense on the PRA budget sine there is already a movement to stop the mag..

Thanks Steve!

The pamplet is digital only so there is no expense to the PRA.

People will be able to download read and print as they wish.

I hope to include a link to it (and other safety info) in a PRA welcome kit that will also be digital only.

All_In

08-19-2009, 05:19 AM

Way to go Tim!
Thank you!!!

Dean_Dolph

08-22-2009, 08:12 PM

Great idea and job, Tim! I've said this so many times recently that there are probably those that think I'm the equivalent of a broken record! But, you simply amaze me with the show of multitasking. There was a time (I gave it up when I retired!) that I thought I multitasked well but you've taken it to another level. You and John could start up your own power grid!

This is slightly off topic but it was brought up in this thread and I hope it isn't lost in the shuffle. Steve has made a couple of good points.

......Next thing is that new pilots or students need a more recognisable reference for safety reasons.. such as an armband etc..

The Airboss, whomever it may be has long hours trying to assist those already on the runway... (It's NOT Fair to Bill or Rodney) Safety personell should be assigned to help with matters from the hangar down to the runway.....I was pleased to see that Chapter 26, the Sunstate chapter, implemented the gyro equivalent of a wing walker at Bensen Days a couple of years ago. Their having someone escort gyros from the hanger area to the take off area was a great idea. I had been concerned about that since there is always a number of visitors that are unfamiliar with airport operation and the inherent hazards of even just walking around; Steve's thoughts should be given consideration.

pilotescort

08-24-2009, 07:46 AM

How would someone carry the cones to other airfields when flying on cross country flights?

It's not always practical to carry everything you can use everywhere you go. The use of "cones" would probably be limited to your home base hanger. The point is to use whatever means and methods you can to avoid ground accidents. I use chocks at my home base, but I don't load them when I visit another airport.
Accidents serve as a wake-up call for common sense, while even the most safety conscious pilots have them. They are already kept to a minimum, and the only way to eliminate them is to eliminate the sport. Accidents happen and sadly people get killed.....that's life. Maybe people should just quit being so overwhelmed and grief stricken when crap happens.

Lspav8r

08-24-2009, 10:00 AM

All_In

08-24-2009, 10:12 AM

Has anyone ever given thought to cageing the prop somewhat like they do on backpack parachute rigs or powered parachutes. Seems like this might just keep people out of the props altogether unless you climb inside the cage with the rotating prop. Just a thought I had.
I think it's because of the weight we don't use them, but I'm guessing. Maybe if someone made a carbon fiber lightweight one?

Not Yet

08-24-2009, 10:18 AM

It is not the weight, but the drag, that is the reason for not using a cage around the propeller. Depending on how dense the cage is it would take up to 50% more power to drag the cage through the air.

All_In

08-24-2009, 11:23 AM

WHY

08-24-2009, 07:05 PM

Along that line of thinking, remember a pound of weight is a pound of weight but a pound of drag is a monster in disguise.

Tony

Resasi

08-24-2009, 07:27 PM

Two things I wish to do on our gyro.

1. Paint the prop tips in at least two colors front and back. Perhaps Red and White. Any recommendations on paint that might be good for a carbon fibre Warp?

2 Make a red band round the keel beam in line with the spinning prop disc. I am also considering writing the word DANGER in red with an arrow that ends on the line on either side of it on the top of the keel beam. Of course when viewed from one side one of those will be upside down but I think people may get the message about the exact position of the spinning prop.

Timchick

08-24-2009, 08:09 PM

Leigh, My Warp Drive had orange and white paint on the tips and was very visible.

Lspav8r

08-25-2009, 06:15 AM

Probably the best way to stop ground accidents is to stop messing with gyros. I know, that sounds stupid doesnt it. Kinda just like trying to reinvent the wheel with safety regulations and ideas. People dont do these things because they want to become statistics folks. Sometimes things happen that we have absolutely no control over. Information has been printed over and over regarding safety proceedures but it is still going to happen.

Millions of people are killed every year in car accidents but you dont see anyone complaining about them. Why is this that we narrow our focus on, out of the ordinary vehicles when the vehicles we use every day of our lives are thinning the herds by the MILLIONS yearly.