Difference between Lightning and Gyrobee

[t-bird]

Hi would like to know what the differences are between the Sport copter Lightning and Gyrobee.

[Master Roda]

I suggest you do some research on both.


http://www.sportcopter.com/Gyroplanes/Lightning/tabid/136/Default.aspx

http://www.starbeegyros.com/productdetail.asp?ID=177&kits=1

The Lightning is a little more money, but is complete. Very little finishing is required, no drilling,etc.

[t-bird]

I have looked at both websites and could not get to an answer except for the price.

I am from South Africa and we mainly fly Ela’s,Magni’s and MT03’s

How do they perform on altitude I am on 5300 feet and the temperature could go up to 37 degrees ?

How does the stability of these single seaters compare to an Ela ?

How difficult would it be to trailer ?

Is it possible to put a bigger fuel tank on ?

[helipaddy]

Or you could try a Dominator!

http://www.rotorflightdynamicsinc.com/

Great fun, really stable and responsive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJRTAfiubx4

Here's the Dominator and ELa

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3410/3633993254_7a3697ca49_o.jpg

[t-bird]

I prefer the more conventional gyro look. Closer to the ground with a nice tail.
The Ela looks nice. I have a white one with a red frame

[Master Roda]

Maybe I mis-understood your question.

If you are referring to performance, that is a function of power and weight. Our machines are using Rotax engines and weigh about 260lbs. You have a choice of 503,582,or 912. Equipping our lightning with the larger powerplants will give you excellent, un-matched performance.

If you are referring to quality, we have everyone beat. Pictures and customer response have proven this fact for years.

If you are referring to cost, we finish all of the parts so assembly is fast and easy. You won't have to pop any rivets or paint,drill,cut,etc. Because of this we charge more for our components.

Our web-site contains all other performance specs so I'm not sure what else you want to know.

Could you elaborate on what you want to know? I don't know much about the Bee's except it is very unfinished, although you could probably buy one from them more complete at an additional cost.

[Master Roda]

I have looked at both websites and could not get to an answer except for the price.

I am from South Africa and we mainly fly Ela’s,Magni’s and MT03’s

How do they perform on altitude I am on 5300 feet and the temperature could go up to 37 degrees ?

How does the stability of these single seaters compare to an Ela ?

How difficult would it be to trailer ?

Is it possible to put a bigger fuel tank on ?

I'm not sure about the stability of an Ela. Our machine is very stable.
Trailering is easy, they fit a standard trailer. No special requirements.
We have 5 gallon,8.5 gallon, and 3 gallon auxillary tanks. All interchangeable. You could have a total of 14.5 gallons.

[Oskar]

t-bird,

I've got a GyroBee and had a look at a Vortex (Lightning with a canopy) yesterday. The two machines are very different, the GyroBee is small and lightweight while the SportCopter is big and solid.

For you engine choice will be critical.

I used to fly a Benson with a 503 close to Jhb and would be on full throttle most of the time. At that stage I weighed less than 70kg and AUW with full fuel would have been less than 200kg.

If you weigh less than 90kg you'll get away with a very light airframe and either a 582 or MZ202. A heavy prerotator or larger fuel tanks would seriously affect performance. I would recommend a GyroBee with MZ202 and Sportcopter blades as they don't need a good prerotator. This is an amazing fun machine but don't plan on flying much further than 100km (which unfortunately doesn't get you very far where you live).

If you weigh more than 90kg I would only consider a Lightning/Vortex with a 912. With this machine you'll be able to add extra fuel tanks and fly a bit further.

Stability is not an issue with either machine, they will both comfortably fly hands free if set up correctly. Plus they are 10 times more fun to fly than those big European 2 seater busses.

Oskar

[Gyroforme]

I suggest you do some research on both.


http://www.sportcopter.com/Gyroplanes/Lightning/tabid/136/Default.aspx

http://www.starbeegyros.com/productdetail.asp?ID=177&kits=1

The Lightning is a little more money, but is complete. Very little finishing is required, no drilling,etc.

Hey guy's, I'd like to throw the Butterfly ultralight into this mix!! I have been reading everything I can find. Trying to find the best ultralight kit,for performance,bang per buck. I have been looking over specs. I have some questions. Do the more expensive kits require less time to build? Are they complete ? The GyroBee is complete, less the rudder control springs.They leave that selection up to builder.What am I missing on the huge price differance between these kits? I am trying to make a good choice,but am a little confused!!:help:

[Master Roda]

I can only tell you what we offer.

We technically don't sell ultralights.

The huge price difference reflects quality, fit and finish, design, and ease of assembly.

I suggest you look at all of the models in person. Nothing judges better than your own eyes.

Jon

[scottessex]

Let me jump in here....
Comparing a gyrobee to a sportcopter is like comparing
a Geo metro to a bmw.....
They'll both get you from point A to point B.

Same with the gyrobee and sportcopter, they both fly, one is lots cheaper,
the other, not so cheap, but you get what you pay for, so what is it that you want?
Plus many gyro's in between.

[Passin' Thru]

Dude, it sounds like you want someone else to make your decision, and no one else can! It all depends on your circumstances and what you really want.:confused:

Ok, I'll offer my highly opinionated opinion;

How nice a gyro do you want? If you want really nice with minimum sweat, go with Sport Copter. Hands down. Period.

I should skip an opinion on the Butterfly UL due to never having flown one or seen one in the flesh. Just from the photos and specs, there are some things I like and some I don't, so the jury is still out.

If you just want to have a fun, "bank and yank, thrash and bash" just for grins pea patch flyer, and your ego doesn't need all the "ooh and aah!" on the ramp at fly ins, the Bee is your ticket.

As far as flying, I'll bet you between the three above machines,when properly set up and rigged, you won't find a nickles worth of difference!

[GyroDoug]

Hey guy's, I'd like to throw the Butterfly ultralight into this mix!! I have been reading everything I can find. Trying to find the best ultralight kit,for performance,bang per buck. I have been looking over specs. I have some questions. Do the more expensive kits require less time to build? Are they complete ? The GyroBee is complete, less the rudder control springs.They leave that selection up to builder.What am I missing on the huge price differance between these kits? I am trying to make a good choice,but am a little confused!!:help:

Howard,

As I understand it, the Gyrobee is a plans built design. You can buy the plans and totally build it from scratch, yourself. This can usually be built cheaper than buying a kit, but it will take a lot more time and effort on your part to get into the air. It also will require you to develope more building skills than are typically required to build a typical kit gyro. Now there are several offshoots of this design and some "partial kits" (or components) and some "complete kits" available. For example this is available:

Part Name: StarBee Light
ID: 00SBL
Available: Yes
Details: Single Mast Rolling Airframe w/spring-shock suspension, Cyclic Control, Black Beauty Rotor Head, Seat Tank, Motor Mount, StarBee Pod & Mount, Analog RPM, CHT & EGT; MZ201 engine, Ivoprop, 23' Sport Copter Blades(shipped freight collect); StarBee Composite Tail, Harness, Throttle Group w/Cable. Prices subject to change without notice. Contact us for Kit details: info@StarBeeGyros.com

Price: $13,150.00

I am not an expert on the Gyrobee family but from looking at this add, I believe this model is supposed to qualify as an ultralight. I also believe it does not include a pre-rotator and adding one would knock you out of the ultralight weight category. So with this machine you need to spin up the rotors by hand and then take a longer taxi run to get the rotors up to flying speed.

While many of these partial kits make it much easier to get your machine built and into the air, they leave the responsibility of you hitting the legal ultralight weight, entirely on your shoulders. Since they are not selling a complete kit, they are not responsible for what else you put on your machine and many a builder has thought they were building an ultralight machine, only to find out after it is complete that they are really over the weight limit with what they have done. While the FAA has largely overlooked this minor detail in the past, the political times are changing and they have been telling us for some time now that they will no longer look the other way on this issue. So if you plan to fly an ultralight, without a pilots license, you should make sure your machine really qualifies or life could get ugly and you could spend a lot of money on something you can't use.

Now the Butterfly Ultralight kit is something I am an expert on. It comes in 2 different models. It is designed to provide good performance for pilots up to 225 lbs. (with a 60 HP - MZ 202) Many of the other ultralight models out there were designed abound the Rotax 447 which produces 40 HP. An ultralight gyroplane with 40 HP can be flown by a lighter weight pilot but requires skill and will provide limitted performance. Some models were designed for the 503 and this is a much better choice but still provides limitted performance for the heavier weight pilots. The Butterfly Super Ultralight provides more power and better performance than any of the other ultralight options I am aware of.

It also has a new light weight, high tech pre-rotator and uses high performance Dragon Wing rotors. It is designed to have center line thrust, be very stable and easy to fly. It has a large horizontal stabilizer that is mounted right in the middle of the prop thrust. And should you decide to start out with an ultralight and down the road decide you want to upgrade the machine and add a bigger engine and other features, the Butterfly Ultralight is designed to be upgradeable. This kit costs $14,995 or $15,995 depending on which engine you want to use. The kit is also available for only $9,995 without an engine. You can learn more about the Butterfly line of gyroplanes by going to "thebutterflyllc.com" or if you have specific questions feel free to contact me via e-mail at "doug@domaworld.com". Or give me a call on my cell phone at (801) 628-7598. I never get tired of talking about gyroplanes.

[Gyroforme]

Dude, it sounds like you want someone else to make your decision, and no one else can! It all depends on your circumstances and what you really want.:confused:

Ok, I'll offer my highly opinionated opinion;

How nice a gyro do you want? If you want really nice with minimum sweat, go with Sport Copter. Hands down. Period.

I should skip an opinion on the Butterfly UL due to never having flown one or seen one in the flesh. Just from the photos and specs, there are some things I like and some I don't, so the jury is still out.

If you just want to have a fun, "bank and yank, thrash and bash" just for grins pea patch flyer, and your ego doesn't need all the "ooh and aah!" on the ramp at fly ins, the Bee is your ticket.

As far as flying, I'll bet you between the three above machines,when properly set up and rigged, you won't find a nickles worth of difference!

I don't want anybody to make my decision for me Lol, but am asking everyones opinion , so I can make a more educated choice!! I just want a great gyrocopter kit. I love to research these here gyrocoptors!! GyroDoug,you are the best! I am leaning in the ultralight Butterfly kit w/ the mz 202 engine .Please everyone,keep the info coming!:help:

[willisbr]

I don't want anybody to make my decision for me Lol, but am asking everyones opinion , so I can make a more educated choice!! I just want a great gyrocopter kit. I love to research these here gyrocoptors!! GyroDoug,you are the best! I am leaning in the ultralight Butterfly kit w/ the mz 202 engine .Please everyone,keep the info coming!:help:

Come to Bensen Days in April and you can see all of these minus a bee I believe. Hell, you may could even buy one at BD.

[Gyroforme]

Come to Bensen Days in April and you can see all of these minus a bee I believe. Hell, you may could even buy one at BD.

You guy's are GREAT!!! I am planning to attend Benson Days.....I'm dreaming big here.....But would like to be flying there in my my own Gyro!!!!:wave:

[scottessex]

Grant R. has listed a great little gyro for sale.

[Gyroforme]

Grant R. has listed a great little gyro for sale.

That gyro looks great....But I'm looking for something ultralight:peace:

[Greg Mitchell]

Howard,

Get the Ultralight Butterfly, you wont be sorry. Super Stable and loads of fun, now with a pre-rotator and 10 extra GeeGee's, what a blast!

Mitch

[Redbaron]

how much do you weigh howard? gyrobees, sport copters and butterflys will fly mostly the same if they weigh the same, have the same engine and the same rotor. their all stable! If you like to build or a tinkerer like me then get a gyrobee. If you just wanna fly get a butterfly or SC. just my .002 cents

You guy's are GREAT!!! I am planning to attend Benson Days.....I'm dreaming big here.....But would like to be flying there in my my own Gyro!!!!:wave:

[Gyroforme]

how much do you weigh howard? gyrobees, sport copters and butterflys will fly mostly the same if they weigh the same, have the same engine and the same rotor. their all stable! If you like to build or a tinkerer like me then get a gyrobee. If you just wanna fly get a butterfly or SC. just my .002 cents

I weight about 200lbs.I like to build ,tinker, I kinda like the GyroBee,except for the extra tall mast and extra wide stance.It won't fit in my pickup,like the Butterfly will!!!:peace:

[Timchick]

Here's a video of a Sport Copter lighting flying. It's the one without the enclosure.

YouTube - Sport Copter gyrocopters low level flying (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIV8poi12nQ)

[All_In]

Gyrobee? If I could live with the ultralight limitations (5 gals of fuel with it's + or - 45 mile range) I would choose the Butterfly hands down.
It even has a prerotator and can easily be upgraded.

Get a hold of Doug Baker he is on the forum and a Butterfly dealer and a heck of a nice guy too!!!

And I almost selected and purchased a Sportcoper, until I talked to Leigh at Bensen Days and he pointed out the differences in the Genesis, the Sportcopter turned out to be my 2nd choice.

[Master Roda]

Aren't you also a dealer for the Genesis John? Sport Copter would be my second choice too if I worked for someone else :)

Anyway, aside from hype. Our ultralight won't be available until next year. I suggest anyone who is thinking of the ultralight category wait a little while (after winter) to select one.
Back to the hype:
All Sport Copter machines are built with AN or NAS hardware. We use the latest technology and have one of the best safety records. We utilize differential braking, suspension,castering nosewheel, geared down controls, and aircraft engines and parts. We strive for quality and customer satisfaction. We have captured a worldwide audience because of this. Sport Copter has a history of innovation and award winning designs.

No matter what machine you choose, the gyro experience is one of a kind and well worth it. I wish you the best.

[All_In]

@ Jon,
Yes buddy I am now. However, I wasn't a dealer or even considering the Genesis when I finally selected the Sportcopter after watching them fly at the last Bensen Days.

I was telling all of my friends at Bensen Days I had finally made my selection your Sportcopter.

When I got to Leigh he said John what about the Genesis. It's lighter, cheaper and the most stable new design I've seen.

I told him I didn't know Genesis made a 51% Kit in the USA and hadn't even considered it and was thinking one dimensionally of only US manufactures.

So I called Nicolas to discover if, when, and how much, etc...

Only after I told Nicolas that I was buying one did he make me an agent for him.

So you can BLAME Leigh it's all his fault!!!

PS:
I'm a Aviomania Agent ONLY because I beleive it's the lightest, most stable gyroplane on the market to fly and I'll be flying and selling these to my family and friends that is what I wish them to fly too. However, I would also fly a Shortcopter anywhere too.

[Master Roda]

John,

I understand. We have some new things for 2011 that might change your mind though. It will be interesting to see how the competition gets when we release them.

I shot some video today that will raise eyebrows. Let's just say that our 912 machine got a makeover.

The new ultralight is almost complete and will have the Sport Copter touch. We have alot of testing to do, but I think you'll agree that it will be another great machine. It should be price competetive as well. We've been working on lowering costs on everything.....meanwhile we have extended huge discounts to new orders.

I wish you luck John. The Genesis is a new machine so I know nearly nothing about it. I hope it proves to be as good as you say it is.

[BEN S]

Your killing me! How about you slip me some pics on the down low and I sorta promise not to share them with everyone?

Come on man.....(low blow coming)...."How's that shotgun shooting?"


:rolleyes:

Ben S

[Master Roda]

Ok Ben, my editing program crashed at the end of the day, but when I have it done, I will send you the link in private :)

Shotgun? What shotgun? :)

[All_In]

John,

I understand. We have some new things for 2011 that might change your mind though. It will be interesting to see how the competition gets when we release them.

I shot some video today that will raise eyebrows. Let's just say that our 912 machine got a makeover.

The new ultralight is almost complete and will have the Sport Copter touch. We have alot of testing to do, but I think you'll agree that it will be another great machine. It should be price competetive as well. We've been working on lowering costs on everything.....meanwhile we have extended huge discounts to new orders.

I wish you luck John. The Genesis is a new machine so I know nearly nothing about it. I hope it proves to be as good as you say it is.
Thank you Jon I cannot wait to see the new designs.

It's not just me that sees the difference in the Genesis Leigh was first to point it out but since then Chuck B, Tony and many of the pros have noted it's the only one with a racked keel and hinged tail so our tail won't be falling off even after years of flying. They understand it far better than I do, however I like the fact that they think it is good and I'll let you know when I fly her!

In any case more choices are better than less!!!

[Master Roda]

John, what is a "racked" keel? Do you mean raked? That's only necessary if you don't have sufficient clearance. I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean for rotation angle?

Also, what do you mean "hinged"? We hold our tails with a bearing on the bottom, and a hinge on the top. Never had a failure in thousands of hours. It's almost impossible to tear it off. I've seen some designs that are simply awfull. The tail on a butterfly for example. The tail (horizontal) is starved if moved to max. Not exactly what you want for stability. And it's not strong...that style anyway.

I don't see how one could make an opinion without actually flying. Some "experts" here don't actually fly...nor do they hold a license. That's an opinion I could do without. Some opinions here are awfully JADED. I think you know what I mean. I'm biased of course :)

But, your right, more choices ARE better!!!

[StanFoster]

John- I am looking forward to my Genesis kit getting shipped. From what I have seen, studied, and heard , the Genesis will be a nice gyro. My painter is chomping at the bit to finally letting have free reins with the painting, of course with some influence! Its nice that the US will have another gyro to choose from. From the plans we have laid down, I feel rhe Genesis is going to hit the ground running, no pun! Stan

[Greg Mitchell]

John, what is a "racked" keel? Do you mean raked? That's only necessary if you don't have sufficient clearance. I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean for rotation angle?

Also, what do you mean "hinged"? We hold our tails with a bearing on the bottom, and a hinge on the top. Never had a failure in thousands of hours. It's almost impossible to tear it off. I've seen some designs that are simply awfull. The tail on a butterfly for example. The tail (horizontal) is starved if moved to max. Not exactly what you want for stability. And it's not strong...that style anyway.

I don't see how one could make an opinion without actually flying. Some "experts" here don't actually fly...nor do they hold a license. That's an opinion I could do without. Some opinions here are awfully JADED. I think you know what I mean. I'm biased of course :)

But, your right, more choices ARE better!!!

More choices are better, agreed Jon.

I dont like gyro bashing or giving opinions on other gyros, especially if I haven't flown it. I make exception, if it has a high thrustline with questionable design configuration, principles applied.

Seeing as you opened the door Jon, perhaps you could give me a reasonable explanation of questions asked on this thread listed below, regarding the thrustline to C of G offset bought about by aiming the thrust above and away from the vertical C of G.

I heard you had issues with tails a while back.

Could you also explain you comment..........

"The tail (horizontal) is starved if moved to max. Not exactly what you want for stability. And it's not strong...that style anyway."

We are currently going through hang and balance tests of all Ozz gyros. The details of the SportCopters will be available eventually. Jon do you know what the offset is with a full load of fuel and a 200 lb pilot in a Lightning or a podded Vortex 582?

http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=694&highlight=sportcopter+thrustline


Mitch

[Master Roda]

I wasn't trying to bash anyone so please don't be offended.

The issues we've had with tails was in the design phase and never reached the public. It was a learning lesson that we shared. This only applied to the first prototype of the SCII. The Vortex and Lightning have never had any problems. The current tail on all of our machines is the only way to go. The SCII tail is very effective even with the large body and with engine out.

I agree that a gyro with "questionable desgin configurations" could be judged on sight.

The butterfly tail.... I personally don't like it. It may be a nit picky thing, but I don't think it's very effective compared to other designs. Even if it worked "ok" I wouldn't choose it if given another option. It doesn't even have an airfoil shape. It's basically a deflector. It must be light though.

I'm not sure what you mean by "offset". Can you elaborate on what you are referring too?

I shouldn't have mentioned any names, I'm sorry for that.

[All_In]

Time out!! We are all friends here.
Let’s not turn this into a fight but a teaching lesson so newbie’s can learn.
I would own a Butterfly, Dominator, Sportcopter, and of course a Genesis!

They are all great aircraft.
Almost like arguing over which manufactures box wrench is best.
I would own and had selected all of the above over the course of my two-year learning curve.

Yes, Jon I meant raked; thanks for pointing that out I would have never noticed. Dyslexia prevents me form seeing much of a difference and it should be illegal for me to write. That is all I care to say on subject as I may be giving away trade secrets if you do not know what I mean form the comment so I withdraw them so as not to start of fight regarding my dad can beat-up your dad. Both dads are great, just a little different.

How do you evaluate something you cannot test drive?
Two years ago when I knew next to nothing regarding rotorcraft I discovered it’s not like anything I tried to buy before where you can always fly it before you buy it.
It was certainly not the way I bough and sold FW aircraft when I was a Piper dealer.

I like many before me, had to select a gyroplane by watching them at every fly-in and video I could find and observe the way the average pilot could:

1. Stable in the air and on crosswind landing, #1 factor
2. Weight of the aircraft, #2 factor for my purposes, the lighter the better in aviation
3. CLT
4. Functional HS
5. Take-off distance for the same wind but with different pilot weight and engines hard to really evaluate
6. Maneuverability; but with different pilot skills hard to evaluate
There were lessor things to like triangulated landing gear, etc.

As CB, Tony, and other pros started pointing out the Genesis benefits I paid attention and wished I could buy one but I did not know Nicolas had a 51% kit so I never considered them until Leigh told me I could.

Like a selection of any tool or aircraft for me the Genesis meets 100% of my usage needs for others your machines will be the best choice not ours.

I am happy if each persons needs are met much more than selling them a Genesis.

I am not in this for the money but it does help to charge off my new hobby!

I am only here to help and I know Doug and you guys are too!!

Your friend John

[Master Roda]

I would hope we are all friends here. I don't want you to think I'm some kind of A hole. I'm trying to be as true as I can without offending anyone.
I only post what I believe to be true. If I'm wrong, please tell me. I may not like it, but I will definitly think about it. Many sleepless nights......

I have my head burried in my own world so please don't take me too seriously, I don't :)

[All_In]

I know Jon, IMHO those four are the best choice and all great aircraft arguing over which one is best again IMHO is like arguing over which wife I selected for me. She may not even look good to you.

I think pointing out how to select the correct ride for each person has to be different depending on how they are going to use it and what we should be concentrating on in the forum.

[StanFoster]

Let me put in 2 cents worth of etiquette 101 as
It applies to competing companies. I have sold curved stairways for years, while bidding against another curved stairbuilder. I know my competition doesn't do some of the extra detail that I put into my stairways, but he does real nice work anyway. When I talk to a potential stair client, never have I said what my competition doesn't do, but I just give them a good education on my methods and leave it at that. I always tell them that if I end up building their stairway, or if my competition does, that they will have a very nicely built stairway. I feel if I were being technically honest by telling my potential client why my competitions stairways are inferior, then I feel I would appear to have a bias and be acting like two competing used car salesman. I usually land the stairjob even though I am higher priced. People will usually pay for what they want, and sometimes all they want is the cheapest. .........................I would handle it the same way here with these four fine gyro companies. Each has advantages over the other and each will suit different people desires in different ways. Whichever gyro is chosen, the owner will have picked from a good company. Stan

[All_In]

@Stan
Yaw Mon! You said that much better than I, thank you!

I can make a good case for each one of them depending on how you are going to use her.

[BEN S]

that is very important in my mind is the speed you can get the pre-rotator up to. If you land as I sometimes do in an area that has difficult terrain to get back in the air again, how will the machine handle getting you back out? Does it have an effective pre=rotator that can be pushed to the limit if necessary? does the rig have suspension that will help you over the bumps on take off?
Other things of importance to me "Are parts readily available?"
is it U.S. made (very slight importance but all else being equal)
is it "adaptable" As your abilities grow in your gyro you will undoubtedly be looking to customize it for your type of flying, for instance I have a cross between a light machine and a cross country flier. Mine isn't really optimized for cranking and banking because that's not generally the type of flying I do. So I have extended fuel capacity and gps instrumentation.
First and foremost is get in the air.period. Until you start flying and making your own opinions how will you know what suits you. I was almost done with my training before I had settled on a machine. For me the company was an easy choice the model not so easy (finances helped make that decision)
I don't know what these electric pre-rotators and light weight rotors will run up to,but that might be one important characteristic. But if you will be flying off a paved runway it won't
Ben S

[GyroDoug]

[QUOTE=Master Roda;395652]I wasn't trying to bash anyone so please don't be offended.

The butterfly tail.... I personally don't like it. It may be a nit picky thing, but I don't think it's very effective compared to other designs. Even if it worked "ok" I wouldn't choose it if given another option. It doesn't even have an airfoil shape. It's basically a deflector. It must be light though.

QUOTE]

Jon,

I am not trying to start a debate here and do not want to even get into a discussion of which model is best or why. However I do want to correct you on the statement made above because it is simply innacurate and not true.

I am not sure why you feel the horizontal stabilizer on a Butterfly doesn't have an airfoil shape and that it is "basically a deflector". Perhaps you are confused with another manufacturer. I have seen many different Butterfly models and have never seen any that wern't built with an airfoil shape. To be most effective a Horizontal Stabilizer needs to be 1- Large enough, 2- it needs to be designed with an airfoil shape and 3- it needs to be on a long moment arm. The Butterfly line incorporates all 3 of these factors into it's designs and has a solid reputation for stable and easy to fly machines.

I am sure you had no intention of slandering a competitors product and simply made a mistake with the above comment. No harm done. We are still friends. I just wanted to set the record straight so that new people reading this thread would not be misled on that matter.

[Master Roda]

I am sure you had no intention of slandering a competitors product and simply made a mistake with the above comment. No harm done. We are still friends. I just wanted to set the record straight so that new people reading this thread would not be misled on that matter.

I understand and agree completely.

Am I wrong? I thought the tail was in flat pieces like a KB or likewise. Did it change? The model I was looking at was the ultralight. I don't believe the Butterfly line of gyros are unstable, I would just do a few things differently. Doesn't the tail also move as one piece? Doesn't that blind the stabilizer?

I owe you an apology if I'm wrong.

[Greg Mitchell]

G'Day Jon,

Yes you are correct in that the Ultralight Butterfly uses the older AC type tail with the HS mounted up to of the VS, placed in the centre of the prop wash.

All the other models have a full flying tail with HS and VS being an airfoil shape, so to with the Golden range imploying a tall tail with airfoil shaping.

These tails are very powerfull due to design and placement, with or without power, whether or not they are at full deflection.

Larry says he has not heard of any Butterfly tails falling off.

So not sure what you were getting at.

Jon surely you know what I am talking about when I said: "perhaps you could give me a reasonable explanation of questions asked on this thread listed below, regarding the thrustline to C of G offset bought about by aiming the thrust above and away from the vertical C of G."

Again, I was and still am happy to promote the Butterfly range without knocking SportCopter or any other brand.

I do believe I did read some advice once that Scotty Heagar (sp?) was giving another owner of a SC regarding fixing up a tail problem with Vortex Lightening....mounting or something of the like........

I guess we all have a preferences for certain design configurations and for me with a very robust mounting system of the airfoil shaped all flying tail on the majority of the Butterfly range and centred in the prop wash, the advantages outway any percieved disadvantages

Best regards Jon, certainly no offense taken. I have always viewed you post with great interest and look forward to continued exchanges here on this and other forums, so that I may continue to learn from all concerned.

Cheers,

Mitch

[Master Roda]

Jon surely you know what I am talking about when I said: "perhaps you could give me a reasonable explanation of questions asked on this thread listed below, regarding the thrustline to C of G offset bought about by aiming the thrust above and away from the vertical C of G."



Mitch,

Ah, I see. I know Jim had his reasons for this. I haven's discussed it in length with him, but I believe he did it for vectoring the thrust in one way for a particular advantage (cruise or climb). Ironically, that design point has been changed on the new models with more horsepower.

I really should reword things sometimes. I can see how it could be taken differently by others. I'll work on it :)

I believe the Butterfly company is a great company with very innovative designs. It's tough to be competitive in this industry and they have proven themselves to be a major player.

Cheers!!

Jon

[GyroDoug]

I understand and agree completely.

Am I wrong? I thought the tail was in flat pieces like a KB or likewise. Did it change? The model I was looking at was the ultralight. I don't believe the Butterfly line of gyros are unstable, I would just do a few things differently. Doesn't the tail also move as one piece? Doesn't that blind the stabilizer?

I owe you an apology if I'm wrong.

Jon,

It looks like I owe you the apology. You are right. On the ultralight model he did change it to a slab HS. (And I have even seen that machine when I was back at Oshkosh this summer - It looks like I am getting more forgetful all the time) I guess in order to make weight that was something he chose to change and I just didn't remember it.

You are also right that the Butterly uses an "all flying tail" and that design does limit the amount of effective HS available when the rudder is full over to one side. (How mcuh flying is done with the rudder full over?) Also being centered in the prop blast makes it more effective than would be a HS mounted down low in the clean air (as long as the engine is running) There are multiple ways of doing anything and each comes with advantages and disadvantages.

I am confidant that Larry has weighed those considerations and done the math and believes that this HS is still an adequate size and shape for a light weight machine like the Butterfly Ultralight. But you are right, there are lots of different ways to do things and we don't always see things the same way. That's why there are different makes and models out there. (something for everyone) I think very highly of the Sport Copter machines and even got to fly one a little this summer. It was a great experience.

[All_In]

To the newbies among us, non of these designs they are discussing here would keep me from owning one.
We have the same discussions regarding Beachcraft, Moony, Piper, and Cennsas. They all fly just a little differently because of there designs but they are all 1st class aircraft.

I'll show you what I mean and start another fight.
Beachcraft = like a Cadillac but they are so heavy that they take off with a flat angle of attack and have to climb out at a higher airspeed. So if you are taking off on soft fields and trying to clear a 100' obstetrical you may not be able to in a Beachcraft where a Piper with the same engine would have no problem.

Let the sparks start flying on this statement...

PS:
Each of us believes that we have the best designed aircraft. For me the Genesis is the best gyroplane in the world with the newest designs. However, it may not be the best for WHERE and the way you wish to fly!

[GyroDoug]

John,

You're funny! I don't think your going to get much fiery debate on a topic like fixed wing characteristics. We all know fixed wings are....? Well OK I won't say that. Let's just say most of us don' thave the same passion or "fire in the belly" when it comes to fixed wings. Personally I wouldn' turn down an opportunity to fly in anything. I love them all. But I am only passionate about Rotorcraft.

However, if Rotorcraft didn't exist and I had to fly a fixed wing, I would be more of a Piper Cub or a Zenith 750 kind of guy. I would still want to be able to fly low and slow and to be able to fly into places that a Beechcraft couldn't go. I still think bigger and faster is nice but their just not th eright kind of aircraft to go up in just for the fun of it. And I fly for fun, not for business. That's my story and I'm stickin to it!!!!

[StanFoster]

I see a tremendous potential for true ultralight gyros. The Butterfly ultralight looks like a superb rotorcraft, well engineered, and with a name like Larry Neal behind it says a lot. I hope Doug sells dozens of them. ....................When Sportcopter comes out with their ultralight gyro, I don't even have to see it to know it will be 1st class. Everything that Jim Vanek touches is top notch..................................Then there is the Genesis ultralight that is in the works. Again, with seeing what Nicolas has accomplished, again without even seeing it, It will be another great choice.........................................So, here we are on the verge of having 3 fantastic companies offering ultralight gyros that should find buyers falling in love with each one of them for various reasons. I think its going to be helpful having more ultright gyros for new ones coming into this sport. Each company will have their unique advantages, and I expect to see lots of sales. Stan

[All_In]

Hi Doug!
Thank you, I try to be funny, not this time but, I like folks to laugh as I'm almost always laughing myself, ask Vance. He said something like “I laugh easy”, I though about for a while and realized he’s right, there are worst faults.
Now all everyone has to figure out is. Am I laughing at you or with you…. HAHAHA

I know I am safer condemning fix wing aircraft on here, which is why I selected them as the example.

However, I know at least two Beachcraft owners (rotorheads on here) that, if they read this thread just might get a response out of. I hope? Hehehehe

I will try to mitigate it a little with this:

I love flying Beachcraft's, stable, even the 'V' tail if you keep your feet on the rudders.
I often have the stall warning going off the first time I fly one after a long absents, oops lower the nose, they are also the least effected by turbulence I believe because they are heavy.

Selecting the correct aircraft whether rotorcraft or planker is like selecting any tool it depends TOTALLY on how you are going to use it.

One size doesn't not fit all!

I use a 10 place Navajo to take family and friends to build memories. But the kids have all moved out and I have 13 grand kids so She either empty these days or too small a tool to use for the job. We usually only have 2 or four folks to fly around these days, what a waste of space and fuel.

I used to use parasails and hanggliders for down low and low ridge soaring.
Even FW Ultralight I never used for down low and slow, too easy to fold a wing trying to get out of trouble.

But now, gyroplanes beats anything I've flown so far for this!!!!!
This tool ROCKS for sightseeing!!!

Yaw Mon,
now we B flying like freak-en Peter Pan!

When folk say it's like a flying motorcycle

No Mon, it B way more than that ...

With the Cherokee 180 I can carry four 225 lb people, 25 pounds of baggage, and full fuel and it's so cheap to operate compared to the Navajo.

This new tool allows me to offer to pick folks up from hundreds of miles away just to bring them to a PRA meeting or fly-in! This tool is not as fast and in fact I think it is slow but I can afford to expand my world of travel, with it, so for some/ most of my future travel needs = it does a better Job for some things, BUT not others = it not a gyroplane :) and would never use it for that purpose.

[Master Roda]

Doug,

I appreciate that, but I feel if I had explained that I was talking about that model in particular we wouldn't have gone this far. For that, I do apologize. I will try to be more specific in the future.

I know how hard it is to build a true ultralight as I (we) are in the process of building a production model. You need to shed weight EVERYWHERE. It's tough, and I congratulate Larry for actually doing it....with a pre-rotator no less.

Have a good week, it seems long already :Cry:

Jon

[All_In]

@Stan
I agree Stan it is an exciting time with many new Ultralights coming out and so many stable CLT machines on the market, it was the hardest selection process I ever made.

I bet I have copied and pasted over a page and a half of quotes from this forum from folks I respect and then rewritten them into a list of what I needed to observe or "How to select the correct gyroplane for me." I posted part of it once.

[All_In]

The anticipation is killing us Jon!!! How much?
It is a great time to start flying gyroplane's!

Well that's a stupid statement it was always exciting to fly them, but the selection is GREAT!!!

We can get a tool that really fits our needs like no other time in history!

[All_In]

Come to think about it. Seems silly fighting over.

As we have so many choices we can nit pick because the 4 I mentioned are all great aircraft. From my observations they just all fly a little different too.

I mean GGGGGG's, Doug is going to be flying into airports and then turning it into a motorcycle and driving around town.

I know I'll be asking him to bring me back some rolled taco from town, soon.

[Master Roda]

John,

We were shooting for 9,999.00 US + engine/prop. I don't know if we'll make it, but whatever the case, it will be a true ultralight and have a few extras not expected.

We made a comparison to bicycles. The lighter they are, the more expensive they are. Not for any other reason than they cost more to engineer and usually are made of exotic materials. I don't think we will have that problem, but it's going to be close.

We have a few other irons in the fire, but this one should be done early next year.

Jon

[All_In]

That is GREAT NEWS. It is a very exciting time for anyone to get into rotorcraft!

Very, very cool!!!

[BEN S]

I have an idea that will put your at the top of the ultra low fat food chain!
make it completely out of carbon fiber tubes with your new seat, make it with a 582 and digital guages and a new light weight rotor, and lastly supply it with a 200lb block of cement with a long rope on it.....thats your pre-rotator! Back the rig up to the block winding the rope around the rotor as you go, when your ready to go put the coal on and as you pull away from the block the rope unwinds spinning up the blades! Hunhhhh.....not to shabby is it?.....It's OK to hire me on a contract basis if needed for consulting (NOT beta testing of the pre-rotator!)
But a 582 would be a great engine for an ultr-light don't you think?
Ben

[Master Roda]

Oh Ben, I miss you.

Your definitly the guy for beta testing :) Not a bad idea for prerotation, but it isn't portable. The R/C model I got from Tom Milton does something similar.

I thought about carbon tubes, but nobody wants to pay for it. This design/engineering thing turns into money so fast it will make your head spin.....like that prerotator :)

Jon

[BEN S]

I miss you guys too.
All of you pile into that Pilatus and come down for a day or two!
Ben S

[dabkb2]

I understand and agree completely.

Am I wrong? I thought the tail was in flat pieces like a KB or likewise. Did it change? The model I was looking at was the ultralight. I don't believe the Butterfly line of gyros are unstable, I would just do a few things differently. Doesn't the tail also move as one piece? Doesn't that blind the stabilizer?

I owe you an apology if I'm wrong.

I think you owe an apology here Buddy, the KB has an airfoil on the tail and rockgard/HS.

Just my 2 cent's worth, I have flown Air Command tandem, Sparrowhawk, Sport Copter(2 place tandem, Vortex, and Lightning), Dominator tandem, Parson tandem, KB2 Subaru, KB3 582, KB2 72 Mac, KB2 90 Mac, Bensen Glider and I have to say the KB2 90 Mac has to be one of the most user friendly gyro's I have flown. Now what do I mean about user friendly, it has the lightness of the Lightning, almost the power of the Vortex, it beats the Sparowhawk hands down and it takes less pilot input than any gyro I have flown. I have to take into consideration that the Mac might quit at any time, but I don't like flying over anything I can't land on in any gyro.

I have not flown a gyrobee yet, but I hope to

[Master Roda]

Mr Bacon,

I'm only referring to tails with flat surfaces.....if your tail has an airfoil, then disregard. I've seen KBs with flat surfaces (maybe it was a Bensen). No apology. :)

Jon

[dabkb2]

I did not expect one,

but it would be nice if you knew what you where talking about

[Master Roda]

You saw the picture I posted right? That's what I'm talking about. If you can't understand that then your the wrong person to talk to anyway.

Alot of things would nice Dave. Wish in one hand, shat in other...see which one fills faster.

[feedpro]

This has been educational reading for me as I consider getting into gyroplanes. Because of my 46 years of bush type flying fixed wing, I probably will not feel comfortable in flying on a frame, thus am more interested in having something around me.
I like the looks of the Vertex but not the power. Power is everything. The other Sport Copters are too expensive for a play thing.

Question: In my studies of "power push over" I can see the advantages of center line thrust, why then does Sport Copter have the horizontal below the engine center line?

I will make every effort to attend a gyro flyin, probably in the West. Utah maybe next year. I have to see and experience before I lay out the dough. I have just finished a Sonex, so have wings for next Summer, having sold my "super backcountry" big bird some time ago. Now it's fun and games and a gyro fits the local stuff. But I have to ride in one first and cement the desire.

[Master Roda]

Feedpro,

First, welcome.

My employer doesn't have the same opinion of CLT that other"experts" have. The reason for the thrust line in our Vortex and Lightning models is for slow flight and other performance related issues. Notice we don't have any "power push over" problems? This effect is due to other factors not relating to the thrust line....so much.

If you seek power, look at our 912. It has the same geometry as a Vortex, but we've changed the tail, mast, tail boom, thrust line (CLT) (that makes people warm and fuzzy).Oh, and the suspension, a must have option. These options are interchangeable to our other models (most of them).

Look at this thread if you haven't already: http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=396188#post396188
That demonstrates the best of gyro's.
If you can, go to your local PRA and get a ride. No matter what you fly in, it will be fun. I invite you to visit us if that's possible too.

As I've said before, no matter what gyro you choose, it will be a great experience.

Have a good night,

Jon

[Greg Mitchell]

My employer doesn't have the same opinion of CLT that other"experts" have. The reason for the thrust line in our Vortex and Lightning models is for slow flight and other performance related issues. Notice we don't have any "power push over" problems? This effect is due to other factors not relating to the thrust line....so much.

If you seek power, look at our 912. It has the same geometry as a Vortex, but we've changed the tail, mast, tail boom, thrust line (CLT) (that makes people warm and fuzzy).

G'Day Jon,

With respect to the thrustline angled up and over the vertical C of G on vortex and lightning models....so was the idea that the gyro would be hanging on the prop in take off and climb out mode? How does this help/work?

Why change this high thrustline offset in 912 model, if it's only required to make those of us that dont know, what SportCopter know, feel all warm and fuzzy?

Not expecting you to give away any trade secrets here. Simply wondering why would you change, what you have had for years which works.

Cheers,

Mitch

[bmoore2156]

Just read the FAA Rotorcraft flying handbook. I think Jim helped them write the gyroplane section... Just sayin....
Brad

[Scary Gary]

I miss you guys too.
All of you pile into that Pilatus and come down for a day or two!
Ben S

I want to go !

[BEN S]

If you want to come you need to get a lasso and round up all them suckers and force them on the plane! I don't think they will ever take a break! Maybe sabotade the power for 2 days?
Of course your welcome!
Ben S

[Master Roda]

Mitch,

Look at our thrust angle too. It has a bit more to do with it.
When I say warm and fuzzy, I mean that you won't get an arguement from the other camps. You know what I mean? Besides, I don't think it's exactly CLT :) (no secret)

Gary, Ben,

If I had the keys to the Pilatus, I would have been there already!!!

Jon

[Scary Gary]

I have a master key .

[Greg Mitchell]

Cheers Jon,

Looking forward to seeing what else you guys bring to market.

I have always liked the SportCopter range and was very pleased when Brett Kingston and Ian Morecombe bought their gyros down to Tassie for the Nationals which I organised a couple of years ago.

Ian is a top bloke as is Brett and their SportCopters were impressive and very nicely finished.

Best wishes for Christmas and the New Year to you and all here on the forum.

Cheers,

Mitch

[PW_Plack]

Question: In my studies of "power push over" I can see the advantages of center line thrust, why then does Sport Copter have the horizontal below the engine center line?

Karl, putting the horizontal stabilizer centered in the propwash has nothing to do with achieving centerline thrust, except for a minimal contribution to raising the machine's overall center-of-mass. On a machine with pitch stability issues under power caused by a high thrustline, putting the H-stab in the propwash is one way to generate a tail-down force offsetting the nose-down torque created by the thrustline offset, but even if it mitigates the instability, it doesn't make the machine CLT.

Putting the tail in the propwash allows that increased airflow to improve control authority under low-speed, high-power circumstances, and can help counter prop torque. Proponents of putting it down in clean air argue it allows more authority in cases of loss of engine power, and/or avoids uncommanded bobbing and wagging due to buffetting off the aerodynamically ugly enclosures typical of gyroplanes.

[Master Roda]

Mitch,

Thank you for the kind words. I've never talked with Ian, but it's nice to hear that he is a good man. He has done alot to promote the sport. I'm glad you are organizing events there. Good on you, and Merry Christmas!!

Paul,

Thank you for elaborating. I'm bad with words sometimes. Thank you for pointing out the specifics. We profess that a tail in clean air is safer for all situations.

Jon

[scott heger]

Jon, back on post #42 Greg Mitchell posted a remark about a defect in the tail assembly on a Vortex that you ignored, and he was correct. You may have forgotten, but the original hollow aluminum horizontal stabilizer tubes in the tail were replaced with a much stronger solid tube. If any owner still has a original low serial number Lightning/Vortex with the hollow tube, you should contact SportCopter for a replacement. I believe the only failure was in the old original factory 2 place trainer, which got beat up by students pretty bad. SportCopter was proactive in getting the parts out to me for any replacement part I have needed. Stuff breaks and gets upgraded as the fleet ages. Just like the additional muffler mount and additional engine mounts that have been added. The important thing is the willingness of SportCopter to address any issues and get the fixes/upgrades to the owners quickly. In that regard I have zero complaints with SportCopter and have had my Vortex since 1999. It is happy flying at slow speed or 100MPH in a full power dive. It handles wind well, and has very good tail authority as seen in the new 912 video. It is really impossible to have more fun (out of a bed)than in the SportCopter......now if they could mount a bed to the SportCopter..........

Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel,Ca N86SH

[BEN S]

Well, I once fell asleep while flying my lightning, does that count? (no really...not even joking) And by the way Jon, when I did I went into a steep curving dive, what gives? If this machine of mine was "CLT" I should be able to fly for an hour or two asleep, no?
And another thing, you shouldn't make those seats so darn comfy! 78 degrees, puffy small clouds, no winds, 30 mph ground speed and whammo, just like takin a baby for a drive in a car seat!
Really lookin forward to July John, But I don't think I'm brining my bird.
Ben S

[All_In]

@Ben
There is a fairly good chance the Genesis will be done by July and thought we would be driving together Ben?

If not, I guess we will be flying over in the 180?

[Master Roda]

Scott,

Thanks for getting that. That fix was before my time. I'll have ten years here next month.

Ben,

Don't scare me. I need you alive.

Jon

[Greg Mitchell]

Good man Scotty Hegar it was your problems with the tail that I recalled.
Larry with the Butterflys is the same works quickly to resolve any problems as they arise.
Believe there are in excess of 50 Butterfly flying around the world today, they certainly evolved and got better over time.

Mitch

[Buck]

Is there any reason why the MZ 202 is not used on the lightning? Seems to me it would save weight and it is a good motor.

[Master Roda]

Because that's the way it was designed and Mr Vanek has no intentions of changing the model.
It may be an option for future designs if we choose it.

[Buck]

So I take the Lightning just happens to fall into the ultralight category incidentally rather than by design?

[Passin' Thru]

So I take the Lightning just happens to fall into the ultralight category incidentally rather than by design?
The Lightening does NOT fall into the ultralight catagory. SportCopter makes no such claim. It weighs 280 lbs.

[Master Roda]

The lightning is an affordable Sport Copter design that is quite nimble and fun to fly. It was designed to pass the test of time and has done so quite well.
Our ultralight (FireFly) is still being designed, and when I get some free time I'll go back to it. Until then Sport Copter does not have an ultralight.

[gyro john]

I purchaced a aircomand with 503 talked to many people in the know. the main thing is the engine , and blades. closed or open frame. Its all up to you dont discount all the help here .most of them learned my making mistakes. listen it will save you bucks good luck and also thanks to everyone for answering my questions befor my purchace. this is a great website love it.

[Buck]

The lightning is an affordable Sport Copter design that is quite nimble and fun to fly. It was designed to pass the test of time and has done so quite well.
Our ultralight (FireFly) is still being designed, and when I get some free time I'll go back to it. Until then Sport Copter does not have an ultralight.

Yet up until a few days ago the Lightning buyers page suggested otherwise as do other sources, some folk on here like to play games but it just creates reasons why you should not deal with them.

[Master Roda]

Yet up until a few days ago the Lightning buyers page suggested otherwise as do other sources, some folk on here like to play games but it just creates reasons why you should not deal with them.

Sorry Buck, but the weight of the machine has never changed. Numbers don't lie. Take your heresay and say it somewhere else.

Maybe your confusing the "Vancraft" Lightning which was an ultralight. The "Sport Copter" Lightning is NOT AN ULTRALIGHT! Never was.

[wdr_601]

The Sport Copter Lightning page did say, until just recently, that the addition of any option would exclude the Lightning from the Ultralight class. The engine (Rotax 503) is listed under the options section.

Maybe it could have been Ultralight with the Rotax 447? I dunno ...

Seeing how difficult it is to build a true Ultralight gyroplane, I am willing to cut them some slack on this issue. Sport Copter seems to be a reputable company and makes good products.

William

[Master Roda]

William,

The Lightning CAN be made ultralight, but we don't sell it as such. I'm sorry for the confusion. I've been streamlining the website, and some things get over looked. I appreciate things like that being brought to my attention.....feel free to tell me about the mispelled words,grammar,etc.
Thanks,

Jon

[Buck]

The Sport Copter Lightning page did say, until just recently, that the addition of any option would exclude the Lightning from the Ultralight class. The engine (Rotax 503) is listed under the options section.


It certainly did but Jonny boy likes talking poo, he has it down to a fine art.

[Master Roda]

This message is hidden because Buck is on your ignore list.

[Buck]

Good, cannot stand people who talk about of both sides of their mouth at once.

[wdr_601]

So, if I connect the dots correctly, the Lightning could be Ultralight if I gave it a MZ202, DragonWing blades, a Carbon Fiber seat, and a wooden prop ?

[Master Roda]

So, if I connect the dots correctly, the Lightning could be Ultralight if I gave it a MZ202, DragonWing blades, a Carbon Fiber seat, and a wooden prop ?

I haven't done the math, but you might get close. I'd like to see someone do it.
We're heading in a different direction, so making the Lightning an ultralight isn't a priority.


Jon

[PW_Plack]

The Sport Copter Lightning was advertised at 252 pounds on the website till a few years ago.

Percentage-wise, flying a 280-pound machine as an ultralight is equivalent to driving 60.6 MPH in a 55 zone. Now...who's going to throw that first stone? ;)

[Master Roda]

Hopefully the "grey" areas have been cleared Paul.

The factory lightning has been sold....and has N numbers. That's an old picture.....I'm sure it was an ultralight at the time...photoshoped? :)

I have the biggest rocks Paul :)

[BEN S]

That sure is a handsome looking machine!
You aren't going to make everyone happy, so don't bother trying. The member named Buck appears from a couple of posts today to not like the Sportcopter line, fine he can buy a Vortech or something else.
As for wether or not a gyro is a few pounds heavy or not, when you go to a Ducati dealership, do you question the thinking of the salesman who sells a motorcycle that might "slightly" break the speed limit?...996 or 1099 comes to mind...
If the rules were easy to follow everyone would without question, but you build a product for a fringe market.
Kinda like going into a "head" shop...yup just nice glass sculptures and pipes....sure.
I can't think of anything more disgusting than a gyro pilot turning another in for a technical infraction....safety may be something else, but a few pounds?
As far as I'm concerned Gyros are my drug of choice...keep growing them!
Ben S

[Master Roda]

Ben,

Your right, that's why I found the ignore button. I've never used it before regardless of what people say, but this guy is an obvious troll. He doesn't even have a gyro, flown a gyro, or know anything about gyros. Ignored.

In honor of you Ben, I'm going to change my avatar...it's only right.

Jon
(still growing gyros)

[Buck]

That sure is a handsome looking machine!
You aren't going to make everyone happy, so don't bother trying. The member named Buck appears from a couple of posts today to not like the Sportcopter line, fine he can buy a Vortech or something else.
As for wether or not a gyro is a few pounds heavy or not, when you go to a Ducati dealership, do you question the thinking of the salesman who sells a motorcycle that might "slightly" break the speed limit?...996 or 1099 comes to mind...
If the rules were easy to follow everyone would without question, but you build a product for a fringe market.
Kinda like going into a "head" shop...yup just nice glass sculptures and pipes....sure.
I can't think of anything more disgusting than a gyro pilot turning another in for a technical infraction....safety may be something else, but a few pounds?
As far as I'm concerned Gyros are my drug of choice...keep growing them!
Ben S

I like them a lot, but Jon has proved himself to be a self important troll who talks out of his rear, for some reason he cannot give a straight answer to anything I post, apparently I am not good enough because I am a gyro noob and dare to ask questions, if that is how a manufacturers representative acts towards potential new customers then it is sad, what is more, he still reads every post I write. You get that type everywhere, clique.

[Master Roda]

So back to topic.

The lighting is a little more expensive than other light machines, but has features and quality that justify it.
Our "new" lightning, the Firefly, is being designed as a true ultralight for those who weigh less than 200lbs.
The design will incorporate a prerotator and basic instruments.