Gyro down with alligators

[pilotescort]

As David H. and I were flying the phospahate mines checking out the alligators (the place is infested with them up to 13' feet long), I descended from 500' to 300' agl for some better views right before twilight and a humidity rise. I cut the throttle only to inadvertently induce carb ice making for a unintended landing. Unfortunately I was over a mud bank 150' downhill from a hardpack road with parked bulldozers on the left (uphill) and gators on the right (a little further downhill in the shallow water). Relentless training afforded a textbook landing into 6" of soft mud with a near zero roll on the slope. The engine came back to life after the full stop, so I shut it down and secured the blades, realizing I wasn't going to taxi out of this mess. Dave circled overhead while I fired the engine back up and manhandled the gyro back up the hill yanking on the frame for zig-zag direction control using thrust to get through the mud between the bulldozers up to the road.

Having finally made it to the road Dave radioed a nice straight section just a couple hundred yards away. The gators were croaking all over the place, but perhaps it was too hot to go chasing for dinner, thank god. All ready to get out of there and low and behold my pre-rotator had done it's last deal when I left the airport, and hand starting the D/W's was out of the question. I radioed Dave that I needed a trailer, so off he went on a rescue detail.

Meanwhile, darkness set in, the bugs were thick as snow flurries, gaters were getting noisier, and god only knows what was running around. Headlights were approaching in the distance, so I called Dave on the cell asking if that was him. "No" was the answer as he and Jim Hay had driven into soft sand somewhere in the mine and where now stuck themselves with the trailer. The headlights turned out to be a mine worker checking the pumps who gave me ride to the front gate, about 4 miles away and then transferred me to a superintendent in a 4X4 who was telling me he just saw a 13 footer on the road near where I landed. A deer jumped out in front of us to cross the road and we were constantly slowing down for hawks getting startled as we drove through the mine. We finally found Jim and Dave and rescued them from the sand before making the long haul back into the mine to rescue my muddy gyro.
It was a long night, but I learned: 1) it's better to always descend in spiral if I'm not planning on landing, 2) the unexpected is sure to happen, 3) trust your training and practice often what you learned, 4) alligators are really lazy unless they're really hungry or dinner is easy, and 5) NOTHING IS BETTER THAN GOOD FRIENDS. God bless Jim and Dave, with countless thanks.

[barnstorm2]

wow, great story!

Congratulations on a successful engine out recovery!!

.

[BUD ONEAL]

We used to call those good people the "sunstate rotor club fetch em on back crew" We had a lot of practice with Fred Towell. He was allways going down some where!

[fiveboy]

Great story, great adventure, great ending.
Good work man.

[Doug Riley]

At the Myakka Refuge outside Bradenton (Fla.) I thought I heard them say that gators won't eat you during the day -- only at night.

Maybe they say that in the hope that some fool Yankee will test out the theory for himself, reducing the excess tourist population...

[chuter]

Well done!

[animal]

what? no pics of the teased gators? now you know they where just waiting to have a taste of Gyro pilot.

Glad you got your machine down and out with out damage to your self or the machine.

[Racer]

Wow, I cannot even imagine flying over some place that if you are forced down you could be eaten, That is just crazy, Glad you are OK

[NoWingsAttached]

Remember when we were kids and you couldn't step in the lava or the alligators....

Can you help me understand the carb ice problem - at low altitude in the summer? I guess I never paid much attention to this as I thought I would never fly in cold, high altitude for a while yet. And what do you mean you should have done a spiral descent? Instead of what, a vertical drop ? What does this have to do with your engine out landing?

[Timchick]

Glad you got it out OK. Jim should paint small gyros on the side of his truck to keep a tallie of how many he's had to retrieve. I'm sure he's a gyro ace by now.

[Fl90]

No wings atached,
Humidity is very high here. There is dew on the ground in the mornings----at a cool 78*F. A power off dessent with full vacuum drops the carb temp and the rapid difference in altitude will give heavy condensation. Whether its ice or water doesn't mean much, as neither burn well.

Doug,
I know a couple of people, one heavily scared and one missing an arm, that would dissagree with the feeding times you were told.

Racer,
On the bright side, if it's going to be a long wait for meal, you don't have to chase one down.

Phil.

[choppergabor]

Wow. Those buggers really make me nervous too. Especially around standing water or swamp. They do launch at you night time more often due to the fact that after sunset the mosquitoes will finish you up in an hour, so the gators wait till they don't have to perform the usual death roll....... just to conserve energy in this heat we are having. Glad you made it out. I assume Dave got his Dom to SGJ?

[pilotescort]

First of all, I'm not a tourist....I live here. It's always dangerous to fly in South Florida considering the whole southern half of the state is pretty much a gator infested swamp with coral snakes, moccosins, and now we have an invasion of boas, pythons, and monitor lizards. But when you're in the thick of a bad situation, the idea of a wildlife photo shoot just doesn't seem to enter the mind.....lol.
As for high humidity descents, any spiral will cost altitude while maintaining engine rpm. That is what I intend to practice now while flying in twilight zone of hot florida summer. I'm in no hurry to get personal with the gators again.

It all seemed like an outting "Birdy" would have, not me. And I'm sure he would have told the story much better. But now I'm a member of the infamous "Engine Out Club", and fully aware of the consequences of carb ice....one of many things that will put you down at exactly the wrong time, or the wrong place. Greg Spicola was hard on me at times, but it served me well when I needed it. He's a good friend too.

[animal]

glad you made it out ok, I have heard ya'll have Monitors and other non native reptiles breeding around those parts now. a Monitor can give you a nasty bite also. I know I use to rise them and to this day have nerve damage in my middle finger,when a 4 foot Asian water monitor decided he wanted my finger more then I did.

what type engine are you running and can you install carb heat?

[Brent Drake]

Nice story. Glad all went well. It's nice to have some good friends for help when you need it.

[pilotescort]

what type engine are you running and can you install carb heat?

I'm running a newly rebuilt 503 DCDI that is going up for sale ($1800 w/o redrive but w/ carbs and exhaust) in order to install one of Racer's Yamahas.

The Yammy's are water cooled w/ constant carb heat. Tom Milton is presently making me a new flex shaft core.....they obviously CAN disintegrate. I wish I could afford a hydraulic pre-rotator....it's on my christmas wish list.....lol.

[ground crew]

Good Job Red Baron ; when your flying a lawn chair things are bound to happen....

[ground crew]

Your birthday is before Christmas

[All_In]

All in all, a Most Excellent Adventure!!!!
Way to just do it!

I hope you can now enjoy it as much as we did?

[edypaul]

Hey Brook
Glade you didn't get eaten!! You might want to look for another cause for your Engine failure . Bing Carburetors are variable-venture (slide) carburetors . They are not susceptible to icing.

[Joe Pires]

Glad to hear you handled that so well Brook. Way to be.

[Early Bird Dave]

Brooke having a great 4th!

[Early Bird Dave]

Some more. The one of Brooke in the back of Jim's rescue suv came out dark but.....:lol:

[Early Bird Dave]

Brooke, you forgot to tell the story (probably intentionally) about the fun with mine safety officials, may I get my aircraft please?
Only after you fill these forms out in triplicate my boy!:)

[GyroRon]

Where are pictures of the gators?

[scottessex]

Jim Hay needs to get a medal for rescuing all the gyros! I know I appreciate him!

[Steve McGowan]

I'm gitten WAYYYY to Old for the these Yunguns... needs my sleep

[pilotescort]

Bing Carburetors are variable-venture (slide) carburetors . They are not susceptible to icing.

Ed, I think that perhaps Bings may be resistant to icing, but under the right conditions I believe any carb can ice without carb heat. That night it was pretty hot with serious humidity as I realized when I landed.....just plain muggy as heck. I believe the humidity crystalized enough to at least interrupt the fuel flow. It just bogged and wouldn't rev up, until after I landed. At 200' agl you're on the ground in no time during a dive. 15 seconds later it resummed normal operation, though the carbs WERE sweaty. Ron's thoughts here would be interesting, or even Chuck B's. I don't know exactly what happened, but I'm blaming myself to create what is called "carb ice".

[GyroRon]

I would pull the exhaust off and take a peak inside, it is possible you got shock cooling issues and a partial siezure. I wouldn't rule out carb ice but highly doubt that was the problem.

[edypaul]

I haven't read this book. This came out of a C.P.S. article.

Quote from Aircraft Power plants by Bent/McKinley . The variable-venturi and pressure carburetors are relatively free from carburetor icing troubles.

Your probably right , any carb can ice up under the right conditions ,but If it was my Engine I would take Ron's advise and look inside just to be safe. Do you have EGT guages?

[pilotescort]

I would take Ron's advise and look inside just to be safe. Do you have EGT guages?

Yes on the EGT w/ brand new probes. I sent Ron a PM and will pop off the exhaust for inspection. I will also drop the float bowls and pull the carb slides looking for that infamous milky water. Thank you for the suggestions.

[GyroRon]

The EGT's would not show warning of a cold siezure. And after a cold siezure, it is most likely that the engine would fire right back up and run " normal " but damage has been done and the engines life span would be drastically cut if you tried to keep flying the engine without repairs.

I doubt it was water in the carbs, if it is water is it more likely a water soaked fuel filter, that is what I would check if the carb bowls are dry. But cold siezure is the most probable cause of the engine stoppage

[pilotescort]

Thanks Ron, that's a whole lot of discomforting news, except for (and I cross my fingers) a water-logged fuel fiter. Of course Scott Essex smoked his Cat engine in 10 hrs., but I'll turn that 503 into a boat anchor if it cold seized before a buy another set of $200 a pop pistons. No manuver was done that hadn't been done a thousand times before. But then again, it is a 2-STROKE.

[GyroRon]

You can shock cool a four stroke just as easy.... It is not how many strokes it has, but the fact that it is aircooled. This is part of the advantage of liquid cooled engines

[earthbnd misfit]

I used to have SU carbys, and I've had carb ice. I had a temp probe in the venturi, As soon as i backed of, it quit. I didn't have sufficient carb heat.

[automan1223]

Yeah Ron,

You can have a cold seizure on an air cooled engine but you can also have have a cold start seizure on one on a liquid cooled engine just as easily. Here is how / why

If you have a liquid cooled engine when first started, stone cold or after a cool down sitting on the pavement, you start the engine and do not let it fully warm up. Clearances in a cold engine are larger than in a fully warmed up engine, however combustion chamber temps come up 100x's faster than the surrounding parts. If you have cool engine coolant, cylinder walls and head, etc. and do not get it all warmed up before you put take off power to it you can have the piston expand faster than the cool cylinder around it and volia'. silence or worse, scuff the cylinder and the piston walls / skirt and have compression issues shortly thereafter. .

I believe the rotax liquid cooled engines have a product notice about this.

I also remember that it is more likely the colder it is out .

Patience on the warm up.

J

[pilotescort]

scuff the cylinder and the piston walls / skirt and have compression issues shortly thereafter.

No water in the float bowls, however there was some fuel in the slide. By the looks of my cylinder walls, it appears the cylinders cooled faster than the pistons and scuffed up pretty good. Could very well have been cold seized. Those walls looked better after 250 hrs BEFORE I rebuilt it. Unfrickenbelievable.

[Doug Riley]

Up North here, we say unbefrickenlievable.

[pilotescort]

Thanks Doug....lol. I don't know if I'll try and fly it one more time around the patch or not. My new pre-rotator core came in and I'm dying to go up, but I may not be so lucky next time, so I better just dismantle it and prepare the frame for a "Racer Special". There's a "hazardous attitude" trying to have it's way, but it's not worth the risk for a quick aviation orgasm. Dang it all to pieces.
I'll be starting a new thread later in the builders corner. Thank-you everybody for all of the great support and PM's.

[scott heger]

I think I would have taken off the "jesus bolt" and used the rotors as a gator poker to keep them away. You guys sure know how to have an adventure. Being eaten is not much to worry about in these parts. We just have to worry about being taxed to death.

Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel,Ca N86SH

[All_In]

I think I would have taken off the "jesus bolt" and used the rotors as a gator poker to keep them away. You guys sure know how to have an adventure. Being eaten is not much to worry about in these parts. We just have to worry about being taxed to death.

Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel,Ca N86SH
I second that, Scott good one!!!

At the rates the fed's are spending...
we are going to have to move to the next highest number from trillion to quadrillion for our deficit?

[dinoa]

It might even have been a mild hot seizure. Sometimes these bring you down other times you can keep flying at reduced power. Either way let things cool down and the engine starts up again but you're still looking at piston replacement. Usually the cylinder bores clean up nicely with a muriatic acid wash and honing. Cold seizures are uncommon, I think in Florida it would be unlikely even going from cold metal to full power.

Retractable pylon mounted motor glider engines need to produce peak power to take off. The low powered types using the Rotax 275 need all the extra power they can get. Common practice is to start up and immediatly go to full power before the engine warms up so the fuel-air charge will be more dense. It's good for about another 200rpm at take off.

The CPS site www.800-airwolf.com/articles has pictures and descriptions of both cold and hot seizures.


Dino

[pilotescort]

The CPS site www.800-airwolf.com/articles has pictures and descriptions of both cold and hot seizures.

Thanks Dino. That site is currently down, but I hope to check it out. My engine will definitely get honed and new pistons before flight again. It is still coming off for good though. Going to stick a radiator on the gyro, first for a 582 Rotax and then for a 973 Yamaha. Water-cooled is the first upgrade, and then 4 stroke will be the final upgrade.