Cross wind Landing - How to Save it?

[NoWingsAttached]

How will I properly handle this when (not if) it happens again?

Gyro on the ground, cross wind lifts the upwind wheel.

1. stick fully into the wind, right? AND...

2. you go full throttle, or ease into it?

3. WHat about the rudder? Do you go full stick windward + full throttle + plus full rudder into the wind all at once? Seems logical, thinking about it.

(Is this going to be different for a castering front wheel vs an attached design? Seems like a castering wheel might act differently on the ground - let the nose get pushed around by the wind, with less ground control? Or better control?)

4. Do you try to take off? Should this be the objective? I mean, the rotor is still turning fast, so do you just want to get the wheel (s) off the ground so it doesn't stick and roll the gyro over? It seems like all of the actions above are probably going to result in a rapid takeoff anyway, so mentally should this be the obective? Just think "Take off!" ???

I always lived by the rule that when you are driving a machine - anything at all - that when all goes to hell in a handbasket, the only way to save it is by instinct. If you have to think about it while it is happening, then it is already too late. I want my reaction when this happens again to be mindless - purely instinctive. So it needs practiced practice practice. But what the heck am I supposed to be practicing?

5. and then what about prop thrust roll? it can either halp or make things worse, depending on which direction the crosswind is coming from..so perhaps easing into the throttle when the wind is coming from the right, and quickly going to wide open is better with left cross wind, to use the thrust roll to maximum advantage?

[BUD ONEAL]

#1
Not fully into the wind,unless needed. If it requires a full sitck to hold it on the ground,go home. It is too windy for you!
#2
After your machine tells you its time, allways go full.
#3
Whatever it takes to hold it on course,Again if you need all of this all at once you should stay on the ground and await a better day!
#4
If all of the above can be done safely go for it.
#5
Set up appointment with Steve McGowen Before you attempt to do any of the above. A windy day as you describe should not be attempted with a huge ammount of training with Steve. Then these would needed answered by any one but yourself.

[dragonflyerthom]

Greg

Like I have been told. Land across the runway or into the wind on the grass. Problem solved.

[NoWingsAttached]

The predictable X-wind is one thing, and yep you can always line up into the wind, but i want to discuss preventing a rollover in a rather more unexpected situation gone bad, after wheels are on the ground. I can't imagine that pilots are never caught in unexpected wind conditions on the ground, so what to do about it?

Seems like no matter what else there is to think about, the first thing should be power up, and get the nose into the wind ASAP - at all costs. Yes?

[Harry_S.]

How will I properly handle this when (not if) it happens again?

Gyro on the ground, cross wind lifts the upwind wheel.

1. stick fully into the wind, right? AND...

2. you go full throttle, or ease into it?

3. WHat about the rudder? Do you go full stick windward + full throttle + plus full rudder into the wind all at once? Seems logical, thinking about it.

(Is this going to be different for a castering front wheel vs an attached design? Seems like a castering wheel might act differently on the ground - let the nose get pushed around by the wind, with less ground control? Or better control?)

4. Do you try to take off? Should this be the objective? I mean, the rotor is still turning fast, so do you just want to get the wheel (s) off the ground so it doesn't stick and roll the gyro over? It seems like all of the actions above are probably going to result in a rapid takeoff anyway, so mentally should this be the obective? Just think "Take off!" ???

I always lived by the rule that when you are driving a machine - anything at all - that when all goes to hell in a handbasket, the only way to save it is by instinct. If you have to think about it while it is happening, then it is already too late. I want my reaction when this happens again to be mindless - purely instinctive. So it needs practiced practice practice. But what the heck am I supposed to be practicing?

5. and then what about prop thrust roll? it can either halp or make things worse, depending on which direction the crosswind is coming from..so perhaps easing into the throttle when the wind is coming from the right, and quickly going to wide open is better with left cross wind, to use the thrust roll to maximum advantage?



Hi Greg,

At first look you're askin' about a crosswind landing so, I'll try that first. Control inputs would be similar for T/O as well as landing, but...as Bud mentioned, if on T/O, you have to have Full side stick to compensate for the crosswind...abort and stay on the ground.

Approach to Landing.

1. Cross controls WILL be used. Stick into the wind as necessary, opposite rudder to maintain track on the Center Line. Co-ordinate pitch and throttle control to maintain angle and rate of descent.

When and after the mains touch down, keep the stick into the wind as you taxi. Not much rudder is needed except if your nose wheel is hardwired to the rudder. CAUTION here...if the nosewheel is hardwired to the rudder, you must center the nosewheel before it touched if you did not make a zero roll landing, otherwise you would take a real quick turn in the rudders direction. :eek:

On crosswind Landings, stick into the wind and rudder into the wind is NEVER used. Cross controls are required. See your CFI before you attempt any crosswind T/O or Landings.

Practicing crosswind operations using your imagination, a kitchen chair and a piece of a broom handle betwixt your legs will be time well spent.


Cheers :)

[Harry_S.]

Seems like no matter what else there is to think about, the first thing should be power up, and get the nose into the wind ASAP - at all costs. Yes?



NO!!

That would maybe be applicable for the experienced pilot...depending on the situation...but possibly not for the newby. You cannot discount nor ignore the years and hours of experience in this area of piloting.

Again...there are differences to be considered betwixt T/O and Landing.

Actual experience with your CFI will be money well spent.


Cheers :)

[gyromike]

Actual experience with your CFI will be money well spent.

Cheers :)

That's the answer right there.

[gyromike]

3. WHat about the rudder? Do you go full stick windward + full throttle + plus full rudder into the wind all at once? Seems logical, thinking about it.


This would pretty much guarantee that you end up on your side.

Like Harry said, the rudder is used to keep the gyro aligned with the centerline of the runway. Use the stick to counteract drift.

[Harry_S.]

Thank you Mike. That was gonna be the biggie in my response but...I forgot.

Full side stick and full rudder in the same direction in a crosswind T/O or landing will result in a major $ incident if not corrected...like NOW.

Again...fly these sequences with your CFI!!!


Cheers :)

[down under]

[How will I properly handle this when (not if) it happens again?]

Work on how to save it, but also work on preventing it happening in the first place.
I have never had a wheel come off the ground.

The way my machine is set up with the big rotors, and the angle of the rotor head at full forward stick with the machine on the ground, I have to be side on or tail to the wind to slow the rotors.

If the problem is when landing, circle the strip a couple of times and watch for the gusts on trees, grass, dust ect then come into land between gusts. If possible land into the shelter of trees or buildings.

[DennisFetters]

Go talk it through with your instructor, and since there is a question on what to do, have him take you up and practice a few until he says you're good to go again. That's the only safe way to do it, not through advice over the Internet.

[TJMay]

I had a cross-wind experience Saturday.

When I left my home grass strip, there was no wind at all. I was landing on an asphalt runway only 19 miles away and with no wind according to the windsock.

Almost immediately after my mains touched and as I pulled the stick back to slow the rotors, a fierce gust from somewhere (I assume 90 degrees to the left) seemed to push my rudder to the right and my nose went left.

My nose wheel had not yet touched the runway. By instinct, I followed the rotor to the left rather than allow myself to push the stick or rudder to the right and risk a roll-over since I was already through the gust.

I ran off the runway into the grass. As my rotor was spinning down I collecte myself and when it had almost stopped, I turned to the runway and taxied back.

As you might imagine, I've thought about the situation a lot since then and wonder what happended and what I should or shouldn't have done.

I guess all's well that ends well.

Tommy

[NoWingsAttached]

Well, it's not a question about a X wind approach, and not a question of take off and fly/don't fly, but rather what to do to save a machine that is rubber on the ground in a sudden changing cross wind as it lifts one wheel. I am pretty sure the answer is LOTS of throttle, cuz that is going significantly change the angle of the apparent wind on the machine, and I guess from this thread that a GRADUAL turn into the wind is acceptable.

[gyromike]

Lots of throttle will probably get you into lots of trouble.

Especially if you end up pointed towards the weeds, or a ditch.

[Chris Burgess]

Greg. You NEED to see a CFI. I will not elaborate more since you know why. You are not ready to tackle what you have described alone. Land into the wind when conditions exceed control authority, and you shouldn't be out in those conditions.

[NoWingsAttached]

Greg. You NEED to see a CFI. I will not elaborate more since you know why. You are not ready to tackle what you have described alone. Land into the wind when conditions exceed control authority, and you shouldn't be out in those conditions.

Yes, thanks! CFI is a definite must, but inquiring minds still want to know... :)

[birdy]

Seems like no matter what else there is to think about, the first thing should be power up, and get the nose into the wind ASAP - at all costs. Yes?
Depends on wot your tryn to do.

Almost immediately after my mains touched and as I pulled the stick back to slow the rotors,
??????????????????
Tommy, why would you pull back any time if you want to slow the rotor??
If you have a headwind, it will keep um spin'n.
Best and fastest [ and safest] way to slow a rotor is to hold it at about -4 degrees into wotever wind direction.

I am pretty sure the answer is LOTS of throttle, cuz that is going significantly change the angle of the apparent wind on the machine, and I guess from this thread that a GRADUAL turn into the wind is acceptable.
If your on the ground, or even only close, you DONT open the throttle.
The machine wont tip over even in a cyclone, if you hold the disc at -4* to the wind.

[TJMay]

Tommy, why would you pull back any time if you want to slow the rotor??
If you have a headwind, it will keep um spin'n.
Best and fastest [ and safest] way to slow a rotor is to hold it at about -4 degrees into wotever wind direction.

I guess what I meant was to slow my roll, not my rotor.

Tommy

[TJMay]

The gust that hit me and I assume caused me to veer off to the left was so fast and short-lived that I'm not sure where it came from other than the fact that I veered to the left.

I can't even imagine being relaxed while landing and whatever happended was while landing, not taxing. My nose wheel had not even touched the runway when I veered off the runway.

Tommy

[NoWingsAttached]

Seems like no matter what else there is to think about, the first thing should be power up, and get the nose into the wind ASAP - at all costs. Yes?
Depends on wot your tryn to do.

I am pretty sure the answer is LOTS of throttle, cuz that is going significantly change the angle of the apparent wind on the machine, and I guess from this thread that a GRADUAL turn into the wind is acceptable.
If your on the ground, or even only close, you DONT open the throttle.
The machine wont tip over even in a cyclone, if you hold the disc at -4* to the wind.

Birdy, This reply is quite the opposite of what I thought. Thanks for the post.

[scott heger]

First, training with a CFI is the only way to learn.......
but think of these points.....

No matter how hard the wind is blowing from a crosswind, you do not have a problem with a tip over while flying until you create a pivot point. This is normally the upwind rear tire. Somewhere in the 20-40's MPH wind range, depending on the gyro model, you are going to exceed the ability of the rotor to compensate for the crosswind condition by applying rotor tilt into the wind when you touchdown. The tipping will start slowly and quickly accelerate, and within 5-10 seconds, kiss your gyro goodbye. 5 seconds is an long time for an experienced pilot not to correct the problem. Getting off the ground again with power within a few seconds and getting the gyro pointed into the wind is not that hard. You have removed the pivot point,and the gyro will self correct . The next time, I bet you will want to land directly into the wind. Who cares if it is on the runway sideways, a taxiway or whatever. If the wind is that strong, it is going to be a no roll landing no matter what, so who cares where it is. Never let a air traffic controller have you land in a strong crosswind condition. Refuse the landing or tell him the way you need to land to be safe.

I had a air traffic controller two weeks ago tell me to make a 180 downwind turn after liftoff in a helicopter to follow the taxiway to the runway for takeoff when the wind was gusting to 28MPH, it was 98 degrees outside, and the helicopter was at/near max weight. I told him that I was unable to comply his instructions, as that maneuver was unsafe in ANY helicopter, and that I needed a straight out (into the wind)from the ramp departure. He then approved the departure as I requested. Do not think all ATC guys know what they are doing regarding rotorcraft, and this one was clearly out to lunch. Helicopters don't need runways or taxiways, and they don't fly/hover very well in a 28MPH downwind condition either.


Scott Heger,Laguna Niguel,Ca N86SH

[birdy]

However, if you are taxing and change directions and don't make mental note of the new wind direction and a gust hits you then you may have a moment of hesitation or confusion and be too late on the control inputs and tip over.
The ONLY wind that could catch you out is a sudden strong blast, but if your taxing ona gusty day, hold the stick slightly into the prevailing wind, and no matter how strong the blast is, or which direction it comes from, the worst that will happen is...................... nuthn youd notice.

As for sudden xwinds hitn you just after touchdown................... wots the issue???
You shouldnt be moven.
If you always have the stick on the backstop before the nose wheel touches, your not go'n to hava roll thatll get you into trouble.

As you flair, hold the machine just off [ 1"] the ground with the stick till the mains touch.
If the stick isnt on the backstop now, keep pulln back holdn the nose wheel off till your roll stops, then ease forward to flaten the disc.
If the wind is strong enuff for you to land with no roll and the stick isnt full back, then it dont need to,so as soon as you touch, pust full forward to prevent the wind getn under the disc.

And as Scott says, if not bendn your machine means breakn sum ruels , then break um.

[pilotescort]

It's been my experience that the rudder keeps me straight on the runway in cross-wind, always using "a little throttle" just to maintain some rudder authority until the wheels touchdown. I prefer a free castering nose wheel so my rudder can be free to pivot as needed. Twice have I had a main wheel raise a touch (in 2 different machines) which quickly went down on an immediate and automatic response of rotor tilt INTO the wind, and certainly NO THROTTLE at that point. It's best to land into the wind, even if it's an intersection. That gives a great slow zero roll settling from about a foot off the ground, followed by forward stick until the rotor speed drops below 100 rrpm. Then I start rotor braking with the rotor level and airframe stopped to avoid flap.
CFI's are indispensable and should limit your x-wind componet. Master the 5 before attempting the 10, and the 10 before the 15. There's really no reason to attempt a greater than 15mph x-wind when your approaches are not limited like a f/w. Check the wind forecast where you intend to land before you take off.

[snowbird1]

I have always thought the crosswind takeoff's were harder than landings (I avoid crosswind landings)- especially on a bumpy grass strip. As I always try to land into the wind- the grass strip I fly out of is barely wider than two sets of my rotor blades so landing crosswise would be tough unless the wind is over 20mph or so. I usually land in the taxi area at the end or close to the hanger where the area is larger and open.
Landing crosswind, I try to keep the gyro facing the runway- using my rudder and stick and keeping enough engine thrust to keep the rudder effective. The idea is the keep your ground speed as low as possible (and still controllable) when touching down without moving sideways. If you don't have enough rudder/stick travel to keep the gyro from landing without sliding sideways do not even touch the ground- go back around and land into the wind. I have flown a few different gyros- a KB3 dosen't have nearly as much rudder control as my snobird- I never felt comfortable on takeoff with crosswinds in the KB3.
I'm sure you will find a sutable area to land into the wind- its a lot more fun to land/takeoff into the wind anyways and you won't need much ground length. Just my 2 cents...its usually pretty windy here in Michigan...