Fun... Fun... Full engine out... No fun

[fiveboy]

Today is my 62nd birthday. My son came down to visit two days ago. Yesterday I installed a new clutch adapter, starter, clutch.... today was the 'test' run with my boy.

We flew for an hour. Over the indian villages, up the river, over the jungle canopy, along the entire length of the lake. All temps good. Air nice.

On base at about 400-450 feet there was a bang and then total quiet. She started to mush. I immediately went into automatic training mode. Put the nose down, got my air speed controlled, selected a field that looked empty. Scanned the field for obstructions, wires, fences etc.

The field is not an even spot and the grass is high. Occasionally there is a bush big enough to hurt you. I picked a spot and aimed for it.

The minute the engine quit I could hear my sons breathing get heavy and panicky. I told him not to worry, I was going to make an emergency landing and that we would be fine. At that point I reached over and turned off my ignition.

I aimed for the spot which came up very quickly. It was clear that the ground was very uneven and the grass higher than ideal. Not to sound macho in any way I was very surprised that my heart rate had not changed one iota. I just knew what I needed to do... and was hoping I would do it... fly it to the ground! At the last moment I turned us squarely into the wind.

I flared about 3 feet higher than I would if it was a smooth field (soft field approach) and dropped it right into that field.

My sons comment was.... wow Papa, nice landing!

Then began the chore of getting out.

Some of my friends from the field showed up in a SUV and we marshalled some locals who came over to see what had just happened. We rolled the machine to the road.... hooked the SUV to the closest point on my struts by the mains brakes and they towed me all the way home again. I rode in the machine and steered and used the brake. You can imagine that the roads here off in the boonies are not the best, but we got her back into the hangar.

Bottom line.... no damage to machine or persons.

Here is a picture of what caused this. Until the moment it happened all my temps etc were spot on. Perfect. Then BAM.

For those of you who warned me that Hirth had a tendency toward this I say... feel free to say I told you so.....

RACER.... come in RACER!!!!!

The PS is my son and I have yet another father son adventure to remember. All's well that ends well.... and thank you God (and Chris Burgess for setting my mind & skills into the right space).

[Chuck Roberg]

Heres my pictures after my F-30 decided to quit.

[Mike Stone]

Glad to hear your son and you are OK. Great landing...great training.

[Brent Drake]

I'm glad you are both OK. But If you were having some problems and installed a new critical parts. You should have flew a few hours solo to be sure everything was working fine. Then did a detailed inspection before you took a passenger. No hard feelings, just my opinion.

[GyroRon]

Told you so.... And what was it, less than 3 days ago in the Dominator thread that you were sticking up for the mighty Hirth! ;)

Seriously though I am sorry for you. It sucks to have such luck out of what is considered a " Aviation " engine. Good news is if you go with a 912 or a Yamaha you will be really happy with the end result.

[fiveboy]

Brent: Your point is well taken but what failed had no earthly relationship to what I repaired. In fact I did do a run up on the clutch before I went up with a passenger.

Chuck: You repaired that jug? What was involved time and money wise? Did you do the work yourself? My confidence is low at this point.... after all there are three more that can go if I repair!!

Ron: I have been in extended conversations with Racer. I dont think a 912 would give me a net gain in that its slightly lower HP than what I am running I believe (make that was running). Are there tandems that run 912? They are soooo damn expensive too.

Ron I know you are an advocate of the Yammie.... my ONLY concern is whether I would be able to find anyone here to work on it if I needed any work....
(BTW I wasnt defending the Hirth I was.... giving it the benefit of the doubt!

[Minnesota_Mike]

Wow...R
That's the end of THAT (Hirth) nightmare...really GLAD you & yours are OK...!

Well...time now for plan 'B'.....Todd will really get you set up righteously.

You've tried the rest...now time for the best..!
Yamaha to the rescue..!

PS...get a manual for that Yamie...you'll have no probs.

[Timchick]

Major bummer. Glad it happened where it did and congratulations on a safe landing. A rotax 912s is 100 hp. How much horsepower was the Hirth?

[NoWingsAttached]

Wow! THAT turned out VERY well in the end! Good show Robert!

Ask Scott Essex about the differences in reliability of Hirth, Rotax, Arrow, he's had ALL of em grenade!

Me? I have a Hirth and an Arrow. The Arrow has been running since 1982, and still hummin. it just turned 60 hours since last rebuild.

The Hirth has (reportedly - though I really don't know for sure cuz no logs were kept) like 80 hours I think, and I bought it with 40 something as I recall.

The 912 is the only rated engine, and it is a 4 cycle. That is the story, man.

You want light and powerful? Go 2 stroke for max performance to speed, climb and throw the gyro around. And keep a landing zone in reach. You want reliability? 4-stroke it. It weighs 2x as much per HP, it takes off like a dog, but it won't burn up like the 2c will.

[barnstorm2]

Congratulations on a fantastic recovery!

This is one of the many reasons Gyros are great, yet so few know of it.

There was a surprise for me today too, but a much better one. Thanks!

.

[Resasi]

Robert sorry to hear about your engine, delighted to hear that your rather exciting father and son adventure ended so well.

As you say good training practice and good habits can pay off big time.

Kept your cool, kept to your established emergency procedure and what a good job you did.

Congratulations, happy Birthday and what a great Birthday story to tell.

[fiveboy]

The Hirth was 110hp. They say after the cooling fans get their share its effectively 105hp.

I have 220 hours on it.

[Racer]

Good job on an excellent engine out.
I think I have found you a motor with less than 500 miles on it if you are interested.
Very happy you and your son are OK and damage free.
Racer

[scottessex]

Man that stinks! glad everything worked out OK.
Too bad Hirth cannot build a good engine, If rotax had serious competition the prices would come down.
I think that the yamaha would be a good canidate after seeing Ron's perform.
Sure it is heavier, but not as heavy as a subaru. whole lot cheaper than a 912.
Basicaly it is the genesis motorcycle engine without the transmission so any competent motorcycle mechanic would be able to work on it, I would think. Is that the same basic engine they use in the jet ski's? (engine is different but mechanicals should be similar enough that a trained mechanic should not have a problem) Should have plenty of them around there.

[Racer]

I think that the Yamaha would be a good candidate after seeing Ron's perform.
Sure it is heavier, but not as heavy as a Subaru. whole lot cheaper than a 912.
Basically it is the genesis motorcycle engine without the transmission so any competent motorcycle mechanic would be able to work on it, I would think. Is that the same basic engine they use in the jet ski's? (engine is different but mechanicals should be similar enough that a trained mechanic should not have a problem) Should have plenty of them around there.

These are purpose built motors for the snowmobiles, The main differences are they have stronger bottom ends and they are designed to produce more torque. The carbs are different because of the carb heaters in them t prevent icing but in general they are pretty much the same as a bike engine and there is no reason a competent motorcycle mechanic could not work on them.

History in the sleds shows that these engines do not need to be worked on very often if ever, if you do the scheduled maintenance they are very reliable.

[Chuck Roberg]

Chuck: You repaired that jug? What was involved time and money wise? Did you do the work yourself? My confidence is low at this point.... after all there are three more that can go if I repair!!

Sent it into Matt for repair. Can't give you a price just for the jug. I had a lot more done at the same time. Like a new engine block and cylinders.

[animal]

Glad ya got her down ok, well you had been looking at Subaru conversions. looks like none to soon.
but I think your best bet will be a Yamaha conversion.

[Russ Hobbs]

Well done, I'm extremely happy your writing your own story today. My best to you and your son. My hat's off to Chris B for an excellent job preparing his student for the what if and when.

Russ

[Vance]

Congratulations Robert! Well done!

I often wonder if I will do as well if my engine goes quiet.

Thank you, Vance

[scandtours]

Robert,
Not the best way to celebrate birthday of course, but for sure it's a day to remember.
We are all happy that everything ended well.
Giorgos.

[troed@aon.at]

I always wonder why Hirths lack so much reliability.............. ? Is it so difficult to construct the engine reliable as the Rotaxes obviously are ? Here in Europe Hirth has a very bad reputation and no one wants to buy an aircraft with a Hirth-engine forcing the manufs to offer their aircrafts much more expensive with Rotax. Even a simple BMW-Motorcycle-Boxer - Motor (1200GS) converted to aircraft use has more reliability at a comparable price (but not in weight).

It´s a shame !

Angelo

PS: landing well done........ congrats

[Gyro_Kai]

Hello,

Congratulations on your good recovery!

Hirth state, that they have made errors in the past but are better now. With 200 something hours the engine was fairly new though, wasn't it?

The Rotax 912 ULS has 100 HP and is heavier. It is used widely in the European 2-seaters and you do not need more for those, with about 260 kg empty.

The 914 can produce 115hp for a short time, which is helpful for lift-off and "critical" situations. However, the price is even twice a terrible.

Kai.

[dragonflyerthom]

Hi Five

Glad your O.K. I had my 62 b day on Sunday. We are close but I'm older. Ha. No really glad your good and this was an incident and not an accident.

[Harry_S.]

Good on 'ya Robert, nice save!! ;)


Cheers :)

[Doug Riley]

Robert, when a Rotax 618 turned out to be too little engine for my full-dress tandem Dominator, I agonized about what to buy next. I considered the F30 and Rotax 912S to be rough equivalents in power and weight. The extra five hp of the Hirth didn't seem that important.

The few pounds saved with the 2-stroke didn't seem like a big deal, either. The 912S is quite light for a 4-stroke. I mounted mine on the Dominator by lifting it out of the box in my arms and dropping it onto the mounts.

I needed reliability. I would attend flyins and hop beginning students all day. The typical New England airfield is a 2000-foot grass strip with some godawful, un-landable terrain (gravel pit, tree-filled swamp) right off the end of the runway. An engine failure on takeoff would not be pretty. I couldn't risk the frequent major failures of a Hirth (castings breaking apart? What the --? This is 2009, not 1709.).

The 912S really is turn-key. You install it and run it. Change the fluids now and then.

I found the 912S to be a worthwhile investment, though the initial price was painful. This IS your life (and some else's) you're talking about here.

[fiveboy]

Doug you made me smile ear to ear with that --? This is 2009, not 1709 - EXACTLY!

Im looking at options. If Racer can hook me up Im leaning that way.... Rotax while a known entity, is a tad painful for this fixed income retiree.... we'll see though.

I guess im gonna start selling Hirth parts.... some never even used!

[Doug Riley]

Yes, the Rotax price is painful, more now than when I bought 6-ish years ago. I justified it to myself in that I was a BFI and could charge for lessons.* Once the BFI program was cancelled by the FAA, the money I had sunk into the machine began to look excessive and I sold it.

You could offer your spare Hirth parts for sale as "never even broke yet."
________________________
* The 912S was light enough to allow the Dominator to squeak under the "ultralight training vehicle" weight limit even with nose pod and various other trimmings.

[All_In]

Wow, way to go Buddy!!!

Every forced landing I've had is one of my best adventures and memories!

And you shared it with your son, too cool.

Training makes it automatic, Way to just do it!

PS:
Sorry about the Hirth, on your budget I'd try the Yamaha, ha,ha,ha too.

[fiveboy]

YES pre-broken Hirth parts for sale!!

That would actually resonate with most Hirth owners I suspect. Reminds me of an ad I saw when I was a kid and color TV was new.... It might have been for Emerson and it stated, If the color your getting doesnt look like this, you dont have an Emerson!

WTF?


The sad part is that I am sitting with spare parts as well as a brand new starter I used ONCE (yesterday only). Oh well at least I still have my good looks.... hey wait a minute!??!

[Resasi]

What's the matter Robert. Just looked in the mirror and seen what a few minutes of extreme concentration can do to one's looks.

Whaddya mean you didn't have white hair before yesterday?

[fiveboy]

Whaddya mean you didn't have white hair before yesterday?

Yes its true my hair has changed to white.... but my testes have also swelled up. OK Ill take it!

[Friendly]

Robert,
Very glad to hear it went well for you and your son. What ever engine you decide, I wish you a speedy conversion and more time with your son.
God Bless

[Chris Burgess]

Robert's hair turned white the same day mine did then.!!! See photo.

[fiveboy]

Robert's hair turned white the same day mine did then.!!! See photo.

The two happiest days of my life were when my son was born and when I soloed. This picture covers 50% of those two happiest times!

And the truth is Mr Burgess had solid black hair 3 years or so before that photo was taken.... and then he started riding back seat with me!

[animal]

I am sure my Mentone flight did not help Chris much either. lol

[scandtours]

Yesterday I mentioned your incident to Hirth factory in Germany and received following answer.
It seems that they want to help.Robert. I did not write that it was my engine as they answer back here but to one of our Rotaryforum member.
You can just mentionto them;

Re Giorgos report 16Jun2009 with copy of their email /letter

TO
info@hirth-engines.de
Att. Mr. Siegfried Göbler

Please let me know what they will answer to you and I will contact them again in case the problem will not be solved.
Robert,I hope that you will never again need to make any emergency landings.
GIORGOS



This is what they have answered.


Dear Sir,

of course we regret very much the problem you have with your engine. The damage shown in the photo is very extraordinary. Unfortunately we are not able to give you a diagnosis from long distance.....

Please advise us of the serial number of this engine, when did you buy it, which is the service life of this engine (how many hours?), which are the maintenance works done on this engine, where it is installed?

The damages shown in the photos are from different engines with similar damage? which is the serial number of second engine?

For example in last week we got a letter from a customer confirming that he never had flown a better engine than the F30 installed in his gyrocopter. The engine already has 500 hours.

The damage is very serious, of course, but the prejudices against Hirth seem to be important. Considering the damages of other engine brands where no accommodation is offered to the customers we and our distributors like Matt Dandar from RPE are serviing our customers very good. Of course this statement is cold comfort for you, but you may rest assured that we will do our utmost to support you.

mit freundlichen Grüßen
with best regards

Siegfried Göbler

[GyroRon]

Sounds like they are saying..... Yes we know our engines are crap, we will give you a discount on new parts to fix it when cylinders crack in half or other major malfunctions occur. Other engine makers don't do this, so thus we are better!


Of course, other engine manufactors don't have engines blowing apart, vibrating apart, etc.... Hirth engines are junk, how in the world would someone not see that? I bet they could built is better for a quarter of the price in China

[fiveboy]

Giorgos

That was very nice of you to do! I WILL follow up with them to see what they have in mind....

but my fellow test pilots - I am already in a gentlemans agreement with Racer to get me back into the sky. I have ruminated on this long and hard and feel that all things considered for my needs, remoteness etc.... especially weight, his conversion will be a very strong and reliable one. I understand machines break. There is no reason though that one which has been rigorously maintained literally by the book, should fall apart the last two times I flew it in a row, in such a catastrophic manner. If an engine cannot be flown at higher rpms for under an hour, then something is wrong. I am really tired of flying with my neck muscles tight.... not from fear, because I have become a confident (vs arrogant or cocky) pilot.... but from not trusting my engine. Anywhere we all fly is a risk, but here there is a dollop of added risk. I was really really lucky.... 5 minutes sooner and I would have been out at the lake and the retrieval would have been a MUCH bigger deal. Literally another 30 seconds and I would have been on final over a small village of tin roofed homes... that would have been a different ending to the story (and btw I will now come in way higher still and drop down for final... lesson learned!).

I spoke with Racer last night and he will do my next engine. I like everything I read about this motor and its pedigree... not just from the forum but from all over. I think this will result in the most reliable, closest to what I had (balance etc) and cost effective solution. It means I am down for a third of a year, but Just when the women and children have despaired along the shores as they rinse the grime of poverty from their tattered raiment, just when the fishermen wonder why the nets are no longer teaming with fish, as the young pubescent virgin girls stare at the moon in eternal longing, and the old ones wish to wander into the jungle neath the shade of deaths cloak to die and be consumed by the inescapable cycle of rot rain stink and bugs..... I will crawl back out of the hole of gravity's persecution and reign supreme in the jungle skies as a living god to the peasant peoples once again. Returned as the sweeping winds and renewing waters.... to inspire, astonish, command and delight.... as Jungle Jet yet again lights up the skies and the hearts of all who gaze upon her, and her handsome daring pilot, as they dance the sky dance of resurrection to the music of 120 horses singing!

PS Here are a couple of shots of my ignominious rescue. In the background is the field I landed in. Its pretty obvious it aint no corn field. I was towed behind the car like a POW for all to jeer at, humbled by shame, beaten by physics.... prisoner of earths bounds.... for now.

:noidea:

[animal]

wow thats some tall stuff to land in. Good job bringing it in and not breaking it.

Glad you made it back and not over the water, would hate for the jet to play submarine.

[All_In]

Boy can Rob tell a story or what?

Thanks for the pictures, and way to go buddy!

[scottessex]

Wow! They have cars in Panama?! who'd a thunk it! :D

Looks like Hirth wants to make good...But it should have started a long time ago..they have known casting issues, and crank issues, they have for years, but they need to have better quality to be a competitor. too bad.

Hopefully you will be pleased with the Japanese quality and reliability. :)

[PW_Plack]

Wow, Rob...(sob)...I was getting all misty reading that! ;)

[fiveboy]

In fairness to RPE and Matt Dandar I need to make the following clear:

Matt stands behind his products and work. He has been helpful to me every step of the way and has been very giving of his time and effort to keep me flying and safe. I do not in any way associate any perceived failings on the part of my Hirth with RPE.

The engine is over 10 years old and I am not the original owner and have no way of knowing what happened to the engine from the time it was delivered from Hirth until I took ownership. What if the original owner had that jug off to de carbon or some other reason and what if when he put the Cir clips back in he decided not to use new ones or simply did not get one in all the way. Then maybe the cir clip got loose and went out harmlessly through the exhaust and a few minutes later the piston pin slid over and impacted the transfer port. The impact would break the cylinder off in exactly the manner it apparently did. If the above mentioned scenario or a host of other possibilities is the cause it might not be totally fair for me to go out on the net and slam Hirth.

It is easy to point fingers but the fact is a machine is a machine and they never fail at a good time.
I reiterate thet Matt Dandar and RPE have been aces - a statement which anyone else who has dealt with him would be quick to agree with I am sure.

[Resasi]

Robert, truly a poet, gentleman and pilot extraordinaire.

Know the ground bound feeling. The permit to test the Bensen was received this week after nine months. It might get tested this weekend, if all goes well??? Then it is waiting for the permit to fly.

As for the testes, I can see the flying machine you use when airborne. It's a big one.

What sort of wheelbarrow when you are perambulatory?

[fiveboy]

Robert, truly a poet, gentleman and pilot extraordinaire.

Know the ground bound feeling. The permit to test the Bensen was received this week after nine months. It might get tested this weekend, if all goes well??? Then it is waiting for the permit to fly.

As for the testes, I can see the flying machine you use when airborne. It's a big one.

What sort of wheelbarrow when you are perambulatory?

Leigh

TWO wheel barrows and a larger hat!

LoL

[Minnesota_Mike]

R...
Wow...we gotta get you to write a 'script'
<in this your down time>...I smell a great story here! <Lol>

M-M

[automan1223]

Hirth killed Tim Moses with a cracked crankshaft at ~250 hours, Left Barry K stranded more than once, even the cylinder base on his 2 cylinder cracked right off like yours. I am not sure if they are making them out of pot metal from recycled aluminum cans or old toilet seats but I congratulate you for your safe and effective landing !

Your experience parallels BFI Maxie Wildes. He put more money into the engine right after the warranty was out than he made all year !!!

Where are the cows and the goats ?

Those of you that have a Hirth you are warned !!!

Ron called this one just like he did Tim's......

Hirth

Safe for use as a door stop or a mail box.

About it.

List of Hirth failures

Tim Moses : F 30 Fatality / cracked crankshaft at 250 hours
Kem D. : F30 (carbs) sold engine after 66 hours failed rear crank bearing wiped out ignition pickups
Barry K : cracked block leaking coolant new out of the box, cracked cylinder base, broken waterpump mounting boss, bad ignition unit
Scott Essex: cracked cylinder heads between spark plugs holes.
Maxie Wildes: F 30 efi broken clutches, excessive crank runout, cracked cylinder heads, cracked cylinder bases, seized fan bearings, sold at 130 hours.



J

[DennisFetters]

It will only Hirth for a little while.

[Passin' Thru]

It will only Hirth for a little while.

That's what they tell me,
That's what they say - :lol::lol:

[MikeBoyette]

"Friends don't let friends fly Hirths".

[Redbaron]

Welcome to the world of hirth, I've had 2 engine failures all thanks to hirth. I'm still alive thank god. I wouldn't trust this engine! PERIOD! My rotax 277 is much older and runs like a swiss clock!

[Timchick]

Is Dave Seace another Hirth statistic?

[scandtours]

I don’t remember from where Ive saved this….
I will not be surprised that some comments were made from our Rotaryforum members. I believe its very informative.

Giorgos


Hirth vs Rotax.

......it deals with a recommendation I made in response to advise given by Mr. Chuck Scrivner to an ultralight pilot. Mr. Scrivner gave a recommendation for the pilot to consider a Hirth engine.

I responded that I felt the Rotax was a better choice. Mr. Scrivner then responded with the following. Which of course I responded to, unfortunately when using the reply message board, I do not have access to a word processor, to correct spelling etc. and it is very difficult to make your answers flow right when you have to keep jumping back and forth from the question or reply to what you are writing.

Since there are issues here that should be dealt with I have decided to do a page on my site at www.ultralightnews.com - and use it to reply in a way where the answers and questions can be followed from point A to Z. So here goes.

Hirth Engines / Rotax

Hirth provides 1 year warranty...Rotax gives 6 months

A:Has anyone ever tried to get warranty out of Hirth? The last time I tried contacting what was suppose to the North American distributor he was no longer in business. Then I tried to contact the U.S. distributor, he referred me to the factory. The factory replied that (at that time) they did not recognize any North American distributor, would not honor any warranty claims or honor deposits taken for engines by anyone in North America. This was also written up in the U.S. Aviator published by Jim Campbell.

Mr. Chuck
Hirth has 1000 hr TBO .....Rotax 350 hr

A:My reply was that I haven't seen a Hirth engine with 1,000 hrs on it. That all the ones I have worked on to date have either seized up or broken crankshafts in less than 100 hours. So the question is what difference does it make if someone says they can do something - prove it!

Mr. Chuck
It would do well to site specific instances of stated malfunctions and correct info for the betterment/safety of the sport. To state blindly that no Hirth engine has ever gone more than 100 hrs stretches credibility.

A:First I did not say "no Hirth" I said none of the ones that I have worked on. You asked for specifics - here are some specific instances gleamed from another website, that is independent from me and has nothing to gain.

Rotax 503 versus Hirth 2703
Two-place builders almost invariably put a 503 of some vintage on their birds. But more and more, you'll spot C-2's and C-2S's sporting that square little Hirth. Now, Hirth claims a TBO of 1000 hours, a built-in starter, and more power-to-weight on their 2703 than Rotax can put out. On the negative side, there's the cost, fewer maintenance centers, and the usual horror stories about "them damn Hirths siezin' up when ya mount 'em upside-down". Personally, I know two pilots who made unscheduled landings which were directly attributable to their 2703 powerplants.

"I have a Hirth 2703, 55hp, with dual carbs, dual CDI ignition, and electric start. My engine has about 50 hours at present. I had a bad bearing which failed at seven hours.

"If you want to keep your Challenger in the air, buy a Rotax!! I've seen the Hirth quit several times on the Challenger and Hornet."


"A problem in operating Hirth engines is getting good factory support. The North American dealers in Canada do not provide good post-sale support. Good engine help can be obtained from Danny Day at CUA, Incorporated (1-602-961-3580). Danny is very good with all types of two-cycle engines. Also, Seneca Aircraft (U.S. Hirth dealer) is very helpful.

"Myself and two partners fly a C-2 with a Hirth 2703. We have a little over 80 hours on it and have not had any problems. The Hirth reps used our plane/engine for display at Arlington EAA fly-in for a couple of years, and they checked/adjusted everything with latest info. I don't know if this means a lot as most info has been made available to Hirth owners. If we get into the 250-300 hour range with no problems, I will be real pleased after hearing all of the 'bad' news. We are getting ready to put a set of Puddlejumpers on for next spring, and we are running the short re-drive. I'd like to find a tall re-drive from one of those that gave up on their Hirth."

"It all boils down to service, parts availability, and preference. Competition with Hirth has made the Rotax a better engine now, and we all benefit! If Hirth can correct the few problems that has plagued them we will have 2 good engines builders to choose from and again that will be good for ultralighters hopefully with lower prices. I fly with a Rotax 503 and it just runs better and better every time I go out. 3 years and 75hrs. on AMSOIL 100:1."

While in Evergreen, Alabama, I took time out to browse around the last day of the EAA Southeast Regional Fly-In (SERFI). One of the major players in the Challenger field was there, airing out a foot he recently injured in a wind shear-induced landing (I'll use his name later, if I can get his permission).
I asked about Hirths. Wish I hadn't. While I can't hope to duplicate the breadth and depth of his discontent with Hearths, here are few of his salient points:

The Hirth used in the Challenger is the 2703, a souped-up version of the smaller model 2704. The stress of pulling more HP out of the smaller engine force it to have a shorter lifespan.
Parts and service have always been the dickens to get, especially under warranty. Some of his customers bought new Hirths, needed warranty work, and were told "no" when they sent them in to be repaired by a major US dealer. The Hirth company then leaned on the owner of that dealership, and he relented. A substantial waiting period, however, was appended to all engines not bought directly from him.
Danny Day sold and serviced Hirths for awhile, but now he doesn't like them, either.
The big selling points on the Hirth were the built-in starter and the gearbox, but the higher price nullified any advantage the Hirth enjoyed.
Challenger will sell mounting kits and redrives for the Hirth, but they no longer offer the Hirth as an option.
He knew lots of flyers who disposed of their engines or their planes as a direct result of problems they were having with the Hirth.
1000 hour TBO is a dream. Most are overhauled between 150 and 350 hours.

I built and flew a Challenger Clipped Wing Special until August of 1994 when my Hirth 2703 single CDI ignition motor stopped on final approach. It had 103 hours on it. I stretched the glide as far as I could but I hit the last house between me and the airport .If anyone purchased a new Hirtch motor from the manufacturer, or a distributor before August 1994, please contact me.

Naaa. Hirth won't make a hundred hours without trouble Hirth CLAIMS 1000 hr TBO , NEVER HAPPEN , not in this LIFETIME !!!!! When a Hirth blows it really BLOWS , then scream warranty HA ! then try and BUY parts HA again ! when customers send me Hirth engine to work on i require them to get there own parts , lotsa luck BTW try $ 169. for just a piston !!!!

Steve Airscrew Performance

Don "Re: UL: Hirth 2703 Engines" I am just happy that I never sold a Hirth engine to a customer, and I did lose one, sale because I would not sell one. I also lost other sales because of failures during demo flights and waiting parts due to failures.

Now Stev of Airscrew Performance is not a Hirth or Rotax dealer, and Don is not a Rotax dealer and sells Challengers.


Mr. Chuck
Hirth uses chromoly crank ...Rotax doesn't.

A:What difference does it make the Hirth has a chromoly crank - when the cranks breaks, as they do on a regular basis it still has to be repaired or replaced.

Mr. Chuck
Hirth max CHT is 535 to 625 F ..Rotax is 450 or so.

A:Again what difference does it make what the CHT limits are - the Rotax is suppose to run as are Hirth engines at 350 EGT. If the Hirth is able to run hotter it just means you are going to due more damage when it finally goes. A lot like continuing to try to run with a broken leg.

Mr. Chuck
Hirth cylinders are Nikasil ...Rotax cast iron

A:The Nikasil cylinders can't be rebored only replaced, the cast iron cylinders can be rebored at considerably less cost.

Mr. Chuck
Hirths come with a starter ...Rotax is an add on

A:Since I couldn't argue with this I replied what difference does it make if the engines standard with an electric start if the engine is seized up on the ground. (If you can't beat them with brains baffle them with bull****.)

Mr. Chuck
Hirth is lighter wt.

A:That is debatable, and the published difference is not going to be noticed on a two place plane

Mr. Chuck
A 65 hp Hirth is 625cc ...Rotax 65hp 582 is 580.7cc

A: Missed the point on this one - it appears that the Rotax produces the same power with less cc's.

Mr. Chuck
Hirth delivers 65hp @ 6200rpm with more torque at the midrange
Rotax delivers 64hp @ 6500rpm (look at the power band charts!)

A: I responded that it is fine to have something published on paper - but the true test is in the field. My experience with both the Rotax & Hirth is that with the same reduction ratio they spin the same prop, with better performance from the 582 - but since the Hirth has 625cc - it should really be compared to the 618 Rotax which surpasses the Hirth in both power and torque - ( but is a little pricey)

Mr. Chuck
Hirth is air cooled (like most aircraft engines)

A:However most cars, motorcycles, snowmobiles, seadoos/ hovercraft/motorcycles/boats are liquid cooled, so what's your point - if you want to fly on dated technology that's fine - but if you look at the accident data aircraft engines have their problems to.

Mr. Chuck
Add another $600 ++ for radiators and gauges with Rotax.
And, you get to try to mount them someplace out in the air causing considerable drag.

A:While the Rotax rads might be expensive, most manufacturers are using other systems, on my L'il Buzzard the rad system is just over $100 Canadian. You run temperature gauges on a liquid cooled engine just like you do on an air-cooled.

The only difference is that instead of a CHT you have a water temp gauge. So what's the point? Drag - in most cases you have an engine mounted above the wing, with a massive exhaust and gear drive, and sometimes parachute, big tires, large round struts etc. etc. etc.

These planes we fly don't travel at 200 mph and a little extra drag is just like adding the extra weight of an electric start.

Mr. Chuck
Hirth has made Aircraft engines since 1931 and they in fact supplied the Luftwaffe.

A:What's the point - Rotax has been building engines since 1908 and currently supplies 80% of the worlds ultralight aircraft engines.

Mr. Chuck
Hirth doesn't offer 3 day mechanic courses to any Yahoo that decides he wants to be a "certified Rotax repair station"

A: Since I have been to these courses in Austria for a week at a time, British Columbia, and Quebec I take offense to the "any Yahoo comment," - people that have attended these courses with me include Lockwood Aviation, LEAF, CPS, Greensky, South Mississippi Ultralights, Reg's Small Engines, and many others - all are involved in the industry.

The cost of these trips to this "Yahoo course" run between $2,000 and $3,000 per person. These course keep us updated on changes, and many of the improvements in the Rotax engine line have come about because of us. The dual ignition, stronger crankshafts, gear drives, exhaust systems all came about because of our industry input.

Mr. Chuck
To do more in these aircraft application engines is not recommended (referring to engine rebuild parts). Rotax sells the parts to do it...because they are supplying for snow mobiles and jet skis.

A: Rotax AIRCRAFT engines are TOTALLY different than those used in snowmobiles and jet skis. The ignition is different, the cylinders are different, the exhaust is different, the carbs are different, the crankshafts are different, the crankcases are different, and the cylinder heads are different, so your wisdom here just got flushed down a toilet.

Mr. Chuck
The web site (www.ultralightnews.com) is big so I may have missed the area that contained all of the Hirth info as stated by Mr. Loveman. I would very much like to be directed to that area so that I may glean as much info on my engines as possible. One can never know enough.

A: No but some can have a little and make it sound like a lot! To my knowledge I never stated there was information on the Hirth engines on my site. I have over 1500 alerts to date of which over 100 deal with Hirth engines. When I get back from Sun N Fun I will try to get some time to do troubleshooting reports on the Hirth line - just like I did on Rotax - but then I will probably get a nasty letter from Hirth or a Hirth dealer telling me that they "have never heard of the problem."

Mr. Chuck
Aircraft Spruce and Specialty, the leading aircraft parts supplier in the USA sells and services Hirth. Ph. 1-800-824-1930. They are located on both coasts. (That's all that really needs be said about distribution) ...but there's more....
Recreational Power Engineering 1-800 583-3306 For Best service and info in Ohio.
East Side Engines in Washington at 1-888-9161.
Hirth has only just begun it's North American Distribution system. It is definitely growing!



A: Aircraft Spruce, is one of the best companies in this business - as are all of the Rotax Service Centers around the world. The advise - I gave was that if you are looking for service look right now to Rotax because they have been there since day one, you can get parts and service world wide. I am not knocking Aircraft Spruce or anyone else - I am simply stating that if you have a problem that you have more outlets for sales and service.

Mr. Chuck
So, Mr. Lov., what SPECIFIC problems have been associated with Hirth that Rotax has never had or does not have or has had?

A:Again what is the point? In three Troubleshooting reports I do nothing but name the problems with Rotax engines. Why, so that I can sell parts to someone in the U.S. or other parts of the world. Or so that I can sell more parts to someone on the west coast of Canada where there is already a local supplier, or in one of the provinces which have their own local service centers. It hasn't happened since my site has been on the web and is not likely to happen, ulpilots support their local dealer-because without him they are in most cases lost when it comes to troubleshooting or shopping for parts.

Mr. Chuck
I don't sell or repair either engine therefore I am not economically biased

A: Mr. Scriver I have worked 12 to 15 hours a day for over 20 years in this industry, and if there is one thing I know it is that there is NO MONEY in it. I make a decent living and I am my own boss. I made more money as a General Manager of one of the largest firms in the world 20 years ago than I do now. But I am happy doing what I do. Taking this flack from you is no different than the flack I take from Rotax or Challenger or the other companies that I publish material on that shows the negative side of the coin.

Am I biased towards these aircraft, services, manufactures, or engines? I publish information that is first hand - information that in most cases won't come from a manufacturer or dealer.

Do you as a pilot flying a plane with a possible problem want that information on not? I only wish someone could have told me of the problems I was about to encounter - before I encountered them. Mr. Chuck Scrivner, you prove to me that there is a better mousetrap out there and I'll be the first to buy it - but prove it with time and experience, not heresay, gossip, or a personal opinion based on a couple of hours of flying.




The following was sent in by a Hirth owner who has read this report:

I just got done reading your Hirth vs Rotax article. I think I should share our experience with Hirth. My father (retired UAL and Veteran marine corps helicopter pilot) bought a used Challenger II on floats about two years ago. It was purchased from a dealer "Charlie Grey" in Seattle. This particular aircraft won an Osh Cosh award the year it was completed. It had 300 hours on engine when he purchased it. 3 months after he first flew the plane the propeller broke in half. One half was still attached to the reduction drive assy. this caused such severe vibration that a lot of hardware de coupled from the aircraft. (instrument panel, magnetos, etc.) after a non eventful landing in a nearby farmers field we took the plane home and started the repair process. about a month later we were showing the plane at the Watsonville fly in. Since then we have an additional 175 hours on plane with no engine related problems. We have had to replace one of the cylinder heads because of a stripped spark plug thread. (yes this problem appears not to be from over torquing as much as from electrolysis due to over heating.) The only other noticeable irritation from the Hearth is it is real cold blooded when starting. Anyway I was surprised from our experience to see all the poor associations towards this engine. Hope we continue to have reliable sound performance from our engine because it is sure fun to fly and a long way to the ground.


deckard wrote: I only know of two Hirths, one on a Challenger ll that is local. The owner swears by it. Its the 65hp model. The other is Chuck S. on his personal Hawk. He hasn't posted much about it, maybe he can give some first hand knowledge. Jerry Deckard SEMO Air Sports LLC http://www.sheltonlink.com/~deckard

Hi Jerry Here's my 2 cents worth.

When I first got a Hirth from the Canadian guys the Service was lousy and the engine needed a lot of refinement.The Hirth Distributer in Canada who supplied the the engines for North America went bankrupt about 2 years ago.They had over $20,000 of my money for 4 engines I paid for in full, I thought I lost the money. It took a while for Matt Dundar to legally get to be the North America distributer.Between Matt and the Germans (Hirth) I got my engines even tho the Canadians had my money and kept it. That's pretty good service in my book ,they had no legal obligation to do so.

Now for the engine.I have flown the 2702,maybe a lot of you saw it at Sun n Fun and Oshkosh ,a green and blacked striped Classic and I have a 2706 in my personal plane and love it.I have owned Rotexs too and still sell them and have no problem doing so they are a fine engine as well. The Hirth that is being sold today is not the same Hirth that was sold 3 years ago.

Since Matt Dundar took over he instructed the factory which changes needed to be made to improve the engine and these refinements were added.My engine is different from the first one I sold 3 years ago. As long as a company sticks by me I'll give them a chance to succeed or fail,so far Hirth is succeeding.I wouldn't trust my personal plane to an engine I thought would let me down.Matts orders have doubled in the last year and because of this they were able to contain the prices.

It's a simple fact of business life You reduce prices to induce sales or you can reduce prices because of increased volume and economy of scale.If this brings you to the price level of the competition it's even better.If I doubled production you can bet I'd reduce the price of my kits. It's Business 101... :) Hirth has never let me down since Matt took over, in prices ,parts or delivery so I honestly can't bitch.

This is my experience. Just as 2SI is not the same Cuyuna that I bought in 82 and had problems with ,the same with Hirth. We're installing our first 2SI 70 hp engine in a 2 seat and maybe we'll offer them as well if it works out.If the Hirth doesn't work out you can bet I'll drop it like a hot potato....But I'm willing to not judge the new guy for the sins of the old guys...
My .02 worth Chuck S




Okay... I don't want to start a war here... I just want to hear some folks experiences with Rotax and Hirth engines. :-) I'm building a Challenger II, and am considering the possibility of going with a Hirth 2706 rather than the standard Rotax 503DC.

I would like to hear from both Rotax 503 owners and Hirth 2706 owners.

* Have you had problems, and what kind?
* Have you had a great running engine that has lasted forever?
* What kind of support have you had if there were problems?
* Has the engine lived up to your expectations?

Please... I don't mean to be overly nit-picky, but I will completely disregard any posts from anybody who hasn't actually flown one of the two engines... I've already seen plenty of opinions that started with, "my brother's best friend's cousin knew this guy who was going with this girl who used to rent a house from a man who had a Rotax/Hirth, and nearly got killed because it quit on takeoff... yeah man... I think it was the flagellator valve or something..." :-)

So please... no opinions, only first hand experience. Thanks!!


Re: Rotax vs Hirth

Well, I'll make your day. I have been around uls since before they were called uls. I have seen and flown lots of different engines, starting with a Mac 101 cart engine and a new blue head this sunday.

I attended OshKosh and SnF for many years, lots of flyins, etc, I have rebuilt literally hundreds of rotax engines, some of them the same engine for thousands of hours, flown them as a newbie for hundreds and thousands more as an instructor. I've sold six brand new ones since the first of this year, and sure I've seen the 503 come in with a broken crank, seixed pistons, points stuck with no spark, carboned up so bad I could not get the rings out of the grooves with out a chisel. I flew a 503 with a broken crank three miles back to the field, didn't know it at the time though, and I intend to spend many more hours in front of or under a rotax pushing me and my friends through the sky, and the point of all this,

I can't honestly say I have ever seen a Hirth engine fly anything, ever, in all that time, and places and years,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

guess I can't help with the Hirth side,,,,,,,,,
--


Mt Vernon, IN 47620



Re: Rotax vs Hirth

In article <.com>, wrote:

A Charming and Enlightening Discourse, Mark! What about the relatively new water-cooled 2si engines?
Sincerely,
Brian

Re: Rotax vs Hirth

Hi Andrew,

Why are you looking at the 503 instead of the 582 which gives the same HP....as the Hirth 2706.

My friend here in Austalia is building a Challenger clip wing special 11 and bought a Hirth 2706 motor 4 years ago when he started to have his Challenger built. The new Hirth 2706 is now upgraded and his Challenger is nearly finished ..yes I would say he holds the Worlds record of 'takng the longest time to build an U/L'

Now...he is in a quandary of what to do with the outdated new Hirth motor.

He and I both , had a 582 Rotax for 3 years until last year on a Pegasus quantum and a Quasar Trike and after nearly 300 hours on each it never once had a hiccup.

The new 'blue top' Rotax 582 is even better and if you are looking for more power like the Hirth 2706 for STOL etc I would not look any further.

My two cents worth.

Cheers Peter



Re: Rotax vs Hirth



My experience is with the 503, although it's not as extensive as others on the NG. I'll give my experience first and then my, er, analysis, ;), below.

I've owned and operated 2 503's, the first was a very early serial no. non-provision points 503 that was on my plane before I rebuilt the plane last summer. It had 25 hours on it since a major overhaul when I bought it; the previous owners had let it sit in the hangar for a year or two with very little running until I got hold of it. I put 70 hours on it with absolutely no maintenance other than replacing the plugs. It always ran perfectly and I never had any problems with it.

Still, I replaced it with a factory new DCDI 503 last summer during the rebuild of my plane. This motor now has about 91 hours on it, again the only maintenance needed having been changing the plugs every 15 hours or so (it's in an inverted installation). I've never had any problems with it; in fact, even the fan belt has not required retensioning in all that time. It's still tight like it was when I pulled the motor out of the crate ;).

But here's the main thing you want to consider when making the choice of which engine to use, and, I might add, the deciding factor for my going with the Rotax over the Hirth: Long-term, in-the-field testing data is simply not available for the Hirth, at least not to nearly the extent it's available for the Rotax. Most of us don't even know anyone who owns and flies a Hirth (although I do now, a friend has a Kolb mark III with a 2706 on it). The Rotax, however, has had nearly as much field-testing, troubleshooting and revision as even some certificated designs! The 503, in particular, has had numerous revisions and upgrades based on years and years of in-the-field experience.

This simply cannot be said of the Hirths at this time. This isn't to say that they're not good motors or that they might be very reliable. I've seen the 2706, it looks like a fine quality engine and the one my friend has appears to run very well. But there simply does not exist the wealth of operational experience with these motors that exists for the Rotax.

This is the primary reason I've stuck with the Rotax. Secondary considerations against the Hirth are the nickle-plated cylinder liners (I would never, ever knowingly run a nickle-plated cylinder liner in a dangerous machine like an airplane), ridiculously high CHT recommendations (400 to 500 degrees!) and the dishonest, silly TBO (1000 hours or something like that) indicating that no one is really sure of a bullet-proof TBO (or even CHT) for these motors. We might know all this for sure in future, but we really don't know right now.

Hopefully, my friend will eventually get his Mark III flying, at which time we might actually get some experience with the 2706....


Captain America IV.



Re: Rotax vs Hirth

The Prairie wrote:
A Charming and Enlightening Discourse, Mark! What about the relatively new water-cooled 2si engines?
Sincerely,


Thanks, I like to put things in proper perspective once in awhile...

The air cooled 2si has sufferred from basic design flaws since day one. The axial flow always favors the fan cylinder in cooling, the fan is way too small for exteneded running above 5400, and the materials of construction seem to have degraded since 2si started making the engines.

They have no clue as to jetting for the alternate Bing carb either.

The water cooled 2si based on the 430 air cooled seems to have potential but I was told several years ago by factory people it had no water pump as it was a ski engine only.

This engine with a pump would solve ALL the problems of the original 430 aka ULII02, etc except the recent materials and supplier problems.

The larger 670 3 cylinder sounds like trouble based on several local experoences.


Mt Vernon, IN 47620

Re: Rotax vs Hirth

Consider this. When you're flying, why would you not want to be using the engine with the longest and best track record. Don't even consider the Hirth. Get a Rotax. The 503 is the best ultralight engine you can buy at any price.

I have hundreds of hours of first hand experience with Rotax engines. I have a small amount of experience with a 2706 because it broke. The 2706 hp is over rated 65, should be 50. Nikisil cylinders are a bad idea, don't believe the hype about expantion rates. And the TBO, has anyone seen a Hirth engine make the supposed 1000 TBO?

Personally I run a 582 but would be running a 503 if I could get by with less power.

Q


Re: Rotax vs Hirth

Hi Peter -
The largest reason that I am looking at the Hirth rather than the 582 is plumbing. I just would rather not have to deal with it. The second reason is weight. There are some good arguments for the 582, (and for sticking with the 503 for that matter), but I am reasonably familiar those arguments.

In the end I may just go with a Rotax, but I want to shop around and do some homework before the decision making process. I am not reasonably familiar with the Hirth, so I'm just trying to gather some objective information to use in comparison.

Thanks!
Andrew


Hi Andrew,
Why are you looking at the 503 instead of the 582 which gives the same HP....as the Hirth 2706. My two cents worth.


Re: Rotax vs Hirth

Well, I'm definitely not an expert, but I fly two planes, both with Rotax 503s - A Sprint II and a GT400 - one is inverted, one right-side up. I've flown the Sprint approximately 150 hours, and the GT about 20 hours. I've never had any problems at all with the engines. Both of them fly great!

Martha


Re: Rotax vs Hirth

Thanks to everybody for their input. I truly appreciate it. I'm going to try and compile some hard data on engine problems from both manufacturers and put it all together in a comparison document along with the experiences that I am hearing.
I will post to the list when it is finished and anybody is welcome to a copy of what I have found.

Thanks again!

Andrew



Re: Rotax vs Hirth

Dan wrote:
Thanks to everybody for their input. I truly appreciate it. I'm going to try and compile some hard data on engine problems from both manufacturers and put it all together in a comparison document along with the experiences that I am hearing.
I will post to the list when it is finished and anybody is welcome to a copy of what I have found.

Hey Dante, I am curious about your responses. Did you get enough info from Hirth flyers to come to any kind of conclusion?

Rick P.


Re: Rotax vs Hirth


Well, I'll make your day. I have been around uls since before they were called uls. I have seen and flown lots of different engines, starting with a Mac 101 cart engine and a new blue head this sunday. I attended OshKosh and SnF for many years, lots of flyins, etc, I have rebuilt literally hundreds of rotax engines, some of them the same I can't honestly say I have ever seen a Hirth engine fly anything, ever, in all that time, and places and years,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Mark hasn't actually been to Osh or SNF for some time. I also prefer the Rotax for it's proven record, but Hirth deserves fair mention.

Chuck Slusarczyk, Mike Harmening (and others) have been flying Hirths every day at those shows for several years at least. Contact those gentleman if you need experienced advice on Hirth engines. Matt Dandar, Hirth distributor, will give a seminar on Hirth engines at the seminar tent next to the ultralight barn on Friday 10:00AM.

--------------

[Redbaron]

Dang that was a really long post, I read through most of it though, I used a hirth f-33 single cylinder 28 hp but it was used, I dunno how a newer hirth would peform, and I'm not willing to try it. I'll list the problems mine had! Ignition coils failed when I got the engine and it wouldn't start! The bolts that hold the pull starter on magically stripped out when I flew to another stirip and I noticed they were gone. The pto shaft stripped out when I tried to put the small gear for the belt drive on and threaded the nut on, I ended up rethreading it myself, which was probally dumb but it held up fine. Vibration eventually killed the spark plug cap allowing the plug cap to vibrate off, thankfully on the ground. And the grand finally was when the cylinder head bolts stripped out and not enought compression! In the junk pile it goes, I wouldn't sell anyone an engine this bad that would risk their lives, I did sell the redrive cause it seemed pretty reliable!

[Redbaron]

I've seen $hit made in china made better than this, I don't believe in just making a buck and risking another mans neck!

[pilotescort]

List of Hirth failures

Tim Moses : F 30 Fatality / cracked crankshaft at 250 hours
Kem D. : F30 (carbs) sold engine after 66 hours failed rear crank bearing wiped out ignition pickups
Barry K : cracked block leaking coolant new out of the box, cracked cylinder base, broken waterpump mounting boss, bad ignition unit
Scott Essex: cracked cylinder heads between spark plugs holes.
Maxie Wildes: F 30 efi broken clutches, excessive crank runout, cracked cylinder heads, cracked cylinder bases, seized fan bearings, sold at 130 hours.


Yes, Dave Seace smoked his (F-30 ?) at Bensen Days 09' w/ only 500 hrs. on a supposedly 1000 hr TBO. He is a pretty conservative pilot. Go figure.

[Timchick]

Yes, Dave Seace smoked his (F-30 ?) at Bensen Days 09' w/ only 500 hrs. on a supposedly 1000 hr TBO. He is a pretty conservative pilot. Go figure.

If I'm not mistaken that's not the first time he's had engine problems with it. I hope he gets back in the air soon.