Another RAF Crash

[WN]

Source: NTSB

On August 2, 2004, about 1300 eastern daylight time, a homebuilt RAF 2000 Gyrocopter, N62188, was substantially damaged while landing at the Beverly Municipal Airport, Beverly, Massachusetts. The certificated private pilot was not injured. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed and no flight plan had been filed for the personal flight conducted under 14 CFR Part 91.

According to the pilot's written statement, he was landing on runway 16, a 4,634-foot-long, 150-foot-wide, asphalt runway. After touchdown, the gyrocopter encountered a wind gust and became airborne again. The pilot intended to maintain flight to prevent the gyrocopter from falling onto the runway; however, he made a "wrong correction." The gyrocopter then rolled onto it's left side and impacted the ground.

The pilot added that he did not experience any mechanical problems. He reported 950 hours of total flight experience, which included 60 hours in gyrocopters.

Winds reported at the airport, about the time of the accident, were from 080 degrees, at 5 knots.

[pwendell]

Steve,

Why ' RAF Strikes Again'? This sounds like a pretty normal, low-time pilot error--similar to a few I've made and been saved by my CFI. It sounds like it could happen in any gyro--HTL, CLT, Hstab, whatever. Let's not confuse the real issues -- PPO due to HTL and no stab-- with non-issues.

[WN]

Peter,

You're right. This isn't a CLT issue. I retract any implication of that statement.

[Chuck Irby]

PASCUCCI LOUIS is the reported owner. Does anyone know him? It would be nice to learn exactly what happened. It could help any of us further down the road.

[StanFoster]

This doesnt sound any different than a Chevy guy commenting on a Ford missing a corner and rolling over.

I had a hanger friend last year total his Dominator by incorrect flying ....had it been a RAF...probably would have been bigger news.

Stan

[Chuck Irby]

Stan, I'm not sure why you said what you did, above. Since it's apparent that I fly a Dominator, you have me wondering if your comment was directed toward something I said.

I, personally would like to hear what you, or anyone else knows about the Dominator crash you mentioned. My thinking is that the more I can learn from others incidents, the less prone I am to make the same mistake. That's the reason I very carefully explained the incident with my Dominator that occurred this past April.

[StanFoster]

Chuck: Please...I wasnt even thinking of you when I posted that. :)

It just seems that the RAF gets more blame when one is involved in an incident.

The Dominator I was talking about was just either drifting or in a crab while landing and it was totalled out. Luckliy the pilot wasnt hurt.

Stan

[GyroRon]

This RAF crash has nothing to do with the type or brand of gyro. It is pure pilot error and like others have said it could have happened to the pilot had he been in another make and model gyro.

Stan... Relax Bro! I didn't see anyone dogging out your RAF!!! :)

And Chuck, Stan told me about the Dominator crash right after it happened last year. Like Stan said the guy came in and touched down while flying in a crab and over she went..... And Stan mentioned that he felt sure had it been a HTL Aircommand or his old Bensen that the gyro would not have tipped over.

[Chuck Irby]

Stan, thanks for the explanation. I knew that didn't sound like you. Forgive me for taking it the wrong way. I think you're right about the blame part too.

Hey Ron, Stan is probably right about a HTL machine not tipping over in that situation, don't ya think. It sounds like the pilot didn't get enough training to me, or had his head up his butt, one. :D

[GyroRon]

No Chuck, I totally disagree. If you land any gyro while flying sideways, HLT or CLT low rider or high rider, the possibility to tip over is massive. A dominator will probably flip over easier than a Bandit, but even a Bandit will tip over super easy if landed in a crab.

More training would have certainly helped. This guy lived way up North is Stans neck of the woods. He came all the way to Georgia and trained with Maxie. Maybe your starting to see a trend here.... Seems the guys who travel so far to be with a instructor end up soloed before they are ready or totally understand what you don't do.

I forget the fellows name that crashed his Dominator, but I met him - heck he slept on my couch, cause while he was down for training Maxie and him came up here to a Fly in we had at Goose Creek - He was a super nice guy and I hope he rebuilt his gyro or bought another one or something. Stan how about a progress report?

[Rotornut]

Glad the Pilot is OK. Machines can be re-built. MJ :)

[StanFoster]

Ron: His name was Dwain Barton. He did not get hurt....and I havent seen or heard of him since the incident. I asked a fellow worker of his the other day what he is up to...but he didnt know either.

I still stand by the fact that my Air Command was more forgiving on the ground than the Dominator...just the same as the argument be made for the Dominator being more stable while flying. I never said that a htl would not tip over if landed in a crab...my exact words were it would be harder to tip over...which Ron basically just said.

My RAF has a narrow wheel base and that had me concerned while I was teaching myself to fly it. I considered getting the wider landing gear...but after getting used to it...its not a problem.

Like you said...if you land these things right..neither one will tip over... :)

Stan

[Chuck Irby]

Ron, you are unreal.

You have changed the wording yet again. You first said, and I quote: "Stan said the guy came in and touched down while flying in a crab and over she went..... And Stan mentioned that he felt sure had it been a HTL Aircommand or his old Bensen that the gyro would not have tipped over."

We all know that there are different degrees of crabbing. A Dominator landing in a slight crab is more prone to tip over than a non CLT machine is in the same crab. That is what I replied to when I said that Stan was probably correct.

However, in order for you to be able to find something to disagree with, you reworded it to read as follows: No Chuck, I totally disagree. If you land any gyro while flying sideways, HLT or CLT low rider or high rider, the possibility to tip over is massive. The only time the word "sideways" was mentioned was when you made it up.

Well Ron, most people who have had just 30 minutes of gyro training know that if you land a gyro sideways, they're going to tip over.

If Stan said that a non CLT machine would not have tipped over under the same circumstances, then I have enough confidence in Stan to make that judgement. From what you're saying, Stan doesn't have the ability to make that judgement.

Ron, you're too damn quick to try to find fault with something someone else has said. It's getting old, Ron. This kind of crap makes you come across like you are the only person who knows anything about anything. I got a private email just this morning from someone here on the forum who has just about had it with you for similar crap. How would you like it if people were always doing you this way Ron?

[StanFoster]

My point on mentioning a Dominator was not for trying to find fault with such a fine machine. My point was that the Air Command I owned was so low to the ground that it has to be more forgivng than a higher stance machine. In my same breath....I felt I fairly stated that the Dominator was more stable while flying. Same thing on my RAF's narrow gear....if I had a wider stance...it would be harder to tip over. But ...if the pilot lands correctly...its plenty wide.

Now this brings me to one of my feelings that the combination of a tense pilot and a CLT gyro...probalby isnt as safe as a relaxed pilot flying HTL.

This particular pilot that wrecked the Dominator.....was either landing in a crab....or drifting when he touched down. You would have to know this guy. He was not just out of getting his lessons. He had been flying all summer. But he was as tense and tight wired as I have seen anyone fly. I was flying one day just 4 miles from the airport in my Air Command and noticed a rotor blade flickering a mile away. I went over and it was this Dominator flying. He started following me and followed me back to the airport. I found out later he was lost and didnt know where he was at.

You guys see all the pictures I post....staight north/south...east/west roads. No trees hardly.....every square mile has a road around it. How could anyone get lost this close to Paxton and over ground that he had been flying a lot over?

Answer...he was a "white knuckle" flyer if there ever was one. So..I guess he slightly landed askew and over he went. Luckily he wasnt hurt except his pride.

Anyway.....Ron....I am not going to respond to your attempts to get me going. Its not fair to the readers. Lets just talk flying and how each one has his own way of doing it. :)

Stan

[WN]

Anyway guys,

I would like to know your thought process, going by the limited information we have in this Preliminary Report, as to landing procedure. Lurkers please refrain, I’m only interested in actual gyro pilots’ response on this. Let’s assume the following is true, even if it may not be:

Worst-case scenario: Landing (intentional) engine off, on Runway 16, wind 080 at 5 gusting 15.

Given the above conditions:

1) What are you thinking in preparation to land?

a. Abort engine-out landing & keep it running at idle.
b. Continue with engine-out landing, nothing to worry about.
c. Abort Runway 16, make an approach to a perpendicular taxiway.
d. Other.

2) You’ve now committed to an engine-out landing, you touch-down on Runway 16 and suddenly are lifted 10 feet above the surface and pushed 15 feet right of centerline by a wind gust. What do you do?

a. I wouldn’t have gotten into this situation in the first place.
b. No problem, a little left cyclic then back to center, then take the imact. (after all, the runway is 150 feet wide)
c. The conditions were reasonable for a safe landing, I would have landed in the infield grass if necessary.
d. The conditions were reasonable for a safe landing, but the unexpected gust would have made the crash unavoidable.
e. Other.

Any additional thoughts on this accident?

[birdy]

Hmmmmm.................Good sinerio Steve. :)
Firstly,if your practicing EOs,DONT KILL THE ENGINE. :mad: That is just madness.Unless you'v a couple of expendable machines avalable,just reduce to idle,it don't matter how much room you'v got,if you balloon up,the still purring engine could save embarrasment.Once you'v acomplished a hundred of these without bend'n anything in all conditions ,then you can be the hero and kill it.


"2) You’ve now committed to an engine-out landing, you touch-down on Runway 16 and suddenly are lifted 10 feet above the surface and pushed 15 feet right of centerline by a wind gust. What do you do?"

First point,if you'v touched down,you shouldn't be effected by any wind gusts coz your disc SHOULD be flat. :confused:
In responce to,
A;only a smart a.. would say that and his days are numbered. ;)
B;cyclic left would only bring you back down.Without power ,your not going to get back to the line.But left stick is all you can do to arrest the right drift.
Just stick left to stop your drift,and flare as normal.[this gust that suddenly pushed you 15' foot sideways has enough power to flare into.Your fin has taken care of the yaw by now,not that it matters coz you shouldn't have any groundspeed on touch down anyway.]
C;If your engine is dead,to hell with the runway,just git to the ground in one pice,and answer to any "police" later.
D;No crash is unavoidable.Solong as you still have control of your rotors,you CAN land without incident if you have room to put it down. :)

Sorry if I'm start'n to sound like a Nazi,but I'v had plenty of experiance with EOs. :rolleyes: :D


When the rest of you old women have finished bitch'n,you can have your say. :D :D

[WN]

:D :D :D Birdy, You're always a fun read! :D :D :D

[pwendell]

Steve,

I'm with Birdy with respect to 1. Why in H@#l would you kill a perfectly good engine?

As far as 2 goes, the only way I can see ballooning 10' in the air after touchdown is if you land with way too much ground speed and pull back on the stick much too fast to stop yourself. In this case, with no engine, little airspeed and decaying rotorspeed, you'd really wish that you hadn't killed the engine :eek: because the landing is NOT going to be smooth. Not being an expert, like Birdy, I'd get my nose back into the wind as much as possible but concentrate mostly on controlling the vertical decent with a nice, measured flare, as far back as necessary to slow the vertical, and any remaining forward speed.

[birdy]

Steve W.,That wasn't ment to be funny,but I'm glad you can enjoy some of my more serious posts.

Steven K.,
Out of interest,wots that rotax on your machine???I can't tell if its a turbine [914]or a muffler [912] under the donk.And can't see the couler of the rocker covers.They look red[914] but I thought Ken R's machine had a 914 onit,till I read somewere he'd painted them red,from green.[cheap way of gain'n 20 horses ay]

[StanFoster]

Hey Birdy....I thought maybe I could get one of those "Fuel Injected" decals and post that by my EJ22. I should be able to really haul butt then... :D

Stan

[Brent_Brown]

Steven do you have any photos of the set up of that pre rotator at the motor

[Chuck Irby]

Steven, do you ever cruise as slow as 50 to 55 mph? If so, do you know what your engine rpm is, and what the fuel burn is at those speeds.

[WN]

Birdy,

I've been busy with family visiting all day, so I haven't been on-line. Just want to make it clear... I thought the comments at the end of your post were amusing, not the actual content (which was informative).

I now know that intentionally killing the engine on final is, to say the least, uncommon. What made me originally consider this scenario happened in 1986. I went to a small airport Northwest of Phoenix, Arizona for my first ride in a FW ultra light. After scaring the hell out of some cattle for 30 minutes, the pilot killed the engine and landed back at the airport. I guess the pilot thought I would be impressed (I probably was at the time).

Thanks for the reply!

[craigjackson]

Birdy,
Mine has the 912S (100HP) on the back. Here's a picture of the first prototype made by the factory (which just got wrecked - pilot error).
Steve,

What's the story on the "pilot error" accident?? :eek:

[Douglas Riley]

There's an older fellow whom I've encountered at flyins in New Hampshire over the years. I think he went by the name "Louie" and had an Italian surname. He was from the Boston area and had an RAF. Might be the man who crashed.

The fellow I'm thinking of initially trained with Jim Logan. He and I had quite distinctly different ideas about gyros at that time: he bought into the "horizontal stabs are bunk" theory and I couldn't make any headway talking to him. He didn't get completely trained with Jim, but he must have studied and thought about things a bit, because the next time I saw him he was a firm "believer" in HS's.

This past spring, the same man went to Ron Menzie for training at Ron's place in Arkansas. He said he spent weeks and a huge amount of money on dual training, and Ron still wouldn't solo him. I have to believe that Ron had his reasons.

If I have the wrong person, I apologize to the accident victim for confusing him with someone else. As for the individual I'm thinking about, though, I'm wondering if he might be one of those folks who just wasn't cut out for this activity. Much as I can't play basketball to save my life.

[GyroRon]

Ron, you are unreal.

You have changed the wording yet again. You first said, and I quote: "Stan said the guy came in and touched down while flying in a crab and over she went..... And Stan mentioned that he felt sure had it been a HTL Aircommand or his old Bensen that the gyro would not have tipped over."

We all know that there are different degrees of crabbing. A Dominator landing in a slight crab is more prone to tip over than a non CLT machine is in the same crab. That is what I replied to when I said that Stan was probably correct.

However, in order for you to be able to find something to disagree with, you reworded it to read as follows: No Chuck, I totally disagree. If you land any gyro while flying sideways, HLT or CLT low rider or high rider, the possibility to tip over is massive. The only time the word "sideways" was mentioned was when you made it up.

Well Ron, most people who have had just 30 minutes of gyro training know that if you land a gyro sideways, they're going to tip over.

If Stan said that a non CLT machine would not have tipped over under the same circumstances, then I have enough confidence in Stan to make that judgement. From what you're saying, Stan doesn't have the ability to make that judgement.

Ron, you're too damn quick to try to find fault with something someone else has said. It's getting old, Ron. This kind of crap makes you come across like you are the only person who knows anything about anything. I got a private email just this morning from someone here on the forum who has just about had it with you for similar crap. How would you like it if people were always doing you this way Ron?


chuck I have written four or five replys so far and decided to delete them before I hit the submit post key. All I can say is you took it the wrong way. Wouldn't be the first time this has happened but I am thinking it might as well be the last. My computer has been broken the last few days and I have had fun with my wife and kid and not being on this addictive forum. I have only tried to be helpful to the forum and in the process I know I have pissed off a select few. To those I have had pissed off, Sorry. That is you Stan, Birdy, Chopper Reid, and Ken Rehler and probably a hundred other guys.

My input to this forum is not that valueable. And the way I see it, no one here needs MY help figuring out things. So I am going to try to spend more time off line with my family, and just browse and join the discussions on a casual basis instead of throwing my two cents in every topic that interests me.

So Chuck hopefully you won't misunderstand me anymore - cause that is what happened above.

[birdy]

The only thing that was piss'n me off bout you Ron was that you cum out all guns blaze'n when you admit yourself that you don't read posts fully.
Now that some people arn't read'n yours fully,and read'n things into them,your go'n to go sulk.
Hmmm,I thought you were more of a man than that.

[Chuck Irby]

Thank you Ron.

I am sorry your computer was broken, but very glad you had a good weekend with your family.

As far as I know, no one on the forum want's you to quit posting here. It would be very nice though if your future posts were not so misunderstood.

It's doubtful that any of us here will ever write the perfect post, and we shouldn't feel that we have to be perfect in our posting.

Everyone that I met, both at Scott's and at BD's, who knows you, knows that your intentions are good. I have never heard anyone say they didn't like you, but some did say that you were sometimes misunderstood. As I see it, perhaps in your enthusiasm for our wonderful sport, you may tend to be too aggressive sometimes, and maybe this is the reason you are misunderstood. I'm not sure. Only you can know that for sure. But to me, the forum is more enjoyable when everyone's posts are understood and no one get's their feelings hurt. It was not my intention to hurt your feelings, Ron, and I apologize if I did. But I do feel that you needed to know that some of your posts have rubbed some people the wrong way, and I am one of those people.

Ron, on the other hand, I consider you a friend and a real asset to the forum, and I know that many others feel the same way.

[GyroRon]

Never said I would stop posting, but I am going to try to not post as much.

[Chaff]

On behalf of all us lurkers out there in Lurkerland, this Forum will be the worse for your absence, Ron. Your common sense approach to fundamental aviation issues is a delight to read...not to mention the entertainment factor when you stir things up. You seem to have thought things out well most of the time, and you are amenable to change when a convincing argument is put forth. Right-o me bucko, salley forth!!

[Hognose]

This is the first I heard of this accident, and BVY is my home drome! Just haven't been there in a while. Hmmm... need to go check this out this week.

In responce to Steve's question, 1. c take a look at the airport here:

http://www.airnav.com/airport/kbvy

Runway 16 is normally used even while operations are ongoing on, and winds favour, 9/27 because 16 is the only instrument approach (VOR, LOC/DME), and it's in better surface condition. There are extensive fixed-wing training operations that will occasionally come straight-in on 16 on their way back from a practice area or a short hop to Lawrence (LWM) or one of New Hampshire's fields, or use it to practice crosswind approaches.

The 5-kt wind reported by the ASOS is very light (not that ASOS is totally trustworthy). Winds are variable this close to the coast and chances are the controller just left the pattern on 16, which is one of the less noise-sensitive runways.

I wonder if the guy landed with excessive forward speed? That set him up to be lifted back up, only to have RRPM decay, fortunately before it lifted him high enough to hurt him.

Nothing but speculation at this point -- I have talked to no one.

cheers

-=K=-