PRA Magazine and Website Ideas (was "PRA Board")

[C. Beaty]

(Note: This thread was split off from the "PRA Board" thread.)

Most people could care less about the bickering of a few soreheads and their camp followers. That is a plague that will always be upon us, whatever the organization.

The face of the PRA and the only benefit, for most members, is the magazine. Unfortunately, magazine quality has been in decline since Paul Abbott gave it up.

Paul would badger the few people capable of writing useful material until they produced something just to get him off their backs.

Less persistent editors and the Internet has changed all that. I personally find it easier and more fulfilling to communicate via the Internet. Instant feedback rather than the 3 month delay between submission of a print article and response.

All print media has been in decline with the advent of instant electronic communication.

Perhaps the PRA should give up the hard copy magazine and go to an electronic magazine. It would still require an editor to filter out the garbage and to arrange material coherently.

I suppose there is some way of restricting access to those who are not dues paying members.

[Ralph]

That Chuck is one of the better ideas I have heard in a long time. The magazine could be formatted as a PDF file so it would have the same "look and feel" on any computer system and could be printed at will by those who don't like computer displays.

The advantages are obvious in terms of a huge reduction in production costs and postage. It would certainly be MUCH easier to write for such a publication.

The major down-side would be complaints that a significant component of the membership doesn't use computers. However, aside from neighbors, there is hardly a town in this country that doesn't have a library with Internet access - often high-speed access. One side benefit would be more visitors to this site and others on the web. Based on my experience with the Gyrobee stuff, overseas folks seem to be able to find suitable computer access when they need it. Controlling access should not be a problem and the material could be available on the PRA website. If you could set it up to feed "teasers" to non-members, we would have a new recruiting tool.

Ralph

BTW - there is no doubt that the magazine peaked out under Paul's editorship!

[Heron]

Once more we could buddy up and print a copy for a friend not computer literate.
Than we could have faster discussions on issues and the Leadership could answer official matters in a timely fashion.
I like it!
NOw lets start a program: One new gyro pilot a year in every chapter! (how many there are?)
Heron

[gyroblackwell]

Chuck,
I agree. The Internet would be a much cheaper way to get the PRA
Mag. out there.

I feel that a slow transition would be the best way to get from here to there.
If the Internet was used to promote the mag., and then slowly decrease the size of the mag. with more technical info, stuff that a guy wants to have in hard copy to refer to during a build, and leave the pictures, and interest articals to the Internet. Info on the net can be updated/changed more often, to keep peoples interest.

That is the way the EAA has gone as well as ASC!

I will bring it up at the next board mtg. and see if I can get some others to back me!

[barnstorm2]

So far as I can tell the EAA still prints a mag, a couple of them in fact. Personally, I like having a magazine.

As Heron starts to mention there is the problem of non-internet connected members. Considering the age distribution of our members we the internet savvy are a minority.

I don't recall who posted it but someone on the forum (better mag thread)suggested a magazine and web site that complemented each other as Tim B is suggesting here. That rang a bell with me. I think that is the best of both worlds.

[Dean_Dolph]

I agree with, Mr. O'Connor, I like to have my hard copy and the only reason I belong to the EAA is to get their mags and their tech content.

And Mr. Blackwell (Two Tims!) I'm not sure what you are referencing when you indicate that the ASC and the EAA have gone to the Internet. I think that is what you were saying. The Internet is used by these organizations to highlight specific activites, events and technical issues in support of the magazine not as a replacement. I very seldom access their web sites except when the EAA mag references a download that is available.

The Internet is fine source of info and a great tool but I can't carry my computer monitor with me when I need to leave the house to wait for someone at the airport or the wife at some store or the docs office and etc. I squeeze a lot of my reading in during these times and besides that there isn't enough room on the monitor for all the post-it-notes I use!

It is probably a defective gene but I also find that I can study a piece of paper a lot better than I can a monitor screen. And I feel a whole lot better if I have control over my printed reference material rather than turn on the computer and find that my Internet provider isn't available, has been sold or as in the case of Norm's conference, find my Internet tech source gone.

No, I prefer that the Internet be used for what it does best, instant communication and hope it is there when I need it. I never want to have to rely on it.

[C. Beaty]

If you have a printer and a stapler, you can always make your own magazine.

The thought also occurred to me that a bundle of money could be saved by publishing the magazine on a CD with no restriction vis-á-vis cost for however many pages and number of color photos but that negates some of the advantages of an online magazine. And I have no idea of how much a laser copy from Jiffy or similar would cost for those without computers.

[barnstorm2]

Mr. Beaty,

I had call today and two days before that from Rick Gilley 'pestering' me for articles so it seems that tradition has been restarted.

[Dean_Dolph]

Yeah, Chuck, you are right but I wear out printers just by printing out what you provide here! I don't need to load them up any more than I do. Plus I have a pretty fast printer but I don't think I want to print out a magazine. It would be cheaper for me to pay extra membership dues.

[Dean_Dolph]

We need for him to start pestering Chuck!

[gyromike]

Dean,

you brought up a point I've been pondering.

If the PRA website could be revamped to become more interactive, and provide an online version of the magazine, perhaps there could be a discounted membership for those who would prefer to have access to the magazine online. Say a few buck less.

A premium (or standard) membership could offer the printed version.

I don't know how much the PRA would save this way. Someone familiar with the costs of publishing the mag would have to run the numbers.

[C. Beaty]

I hope Rick perseveres. I promised him an article last Bensen Days and haven't lived up to that commitment.

I guess he ought to use a bull whip on me.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I don't know much about the economics of printing either, Mike.

But I bet the cost per copy goes up as the total number goes down.

[Dean_Dolph]

I had an extensive visit with Rick at Mentone and I suggested that he, the editor, write an article explaining the publishing process. I don't want to try to repeat what he told me but it was an eye opener in many ways. No, it is not a cheap process and with the large number of steps there are a number of things that can go wrong and usually do. I came away thinking that after a shaky start that he now has his arms wrapped around it and we should start seeing an improvement.

[Udi]

A good transition from a paper mag to an on-line mag would be to first give all members access to an on-line version of the paper mag, and then offer discounts for members who are willing to drop the printed version. This way the PRA can split the savings with the members. I bet our international members would be the first ones to jump on this deal, as they are paying higher premiums for mailing.

Some members will always prefer a printed version to an on-line version. I am one of them.

Udi

[Dean_Dolph]

Mike, what you have suggested has some appeal. However, we need a fully functional, working web site first! There are a lot of ideas being presented to better promote the PRA and satisfy the needs of the members. But any/all of them require someone to take responsibility for the effort(s).

When it comes to the web site and the magazine I believe it is the BODs responsibility to either head up the efforts or delegate. Maybe they don't know that there are those who would like to help but don't know if their talents/skills match up with what is needed. We know what is required to generate an article but how else can we help?

I personally think that the web site issue needs to be hammered on until it is solved. And it needs to be solved soon. Then we can turn our attention to the magazine and other issues.

Posted this and then realized that I had another question for you. A lot of people use the term 'interactive' these days and a most of the time I'm not sure in what context. In this case what does 'interactive' mean?

[Rotornut]

Then there are those like Chuck who will support their friend to the end with nothing to support their position. They make an extra effort to try to embarrass and belittle others, and for what. I don't know. When people do things like that, it just makes me wonder what the are trying to hide and I'm tired of fighting a battle when there is nothing to gain and no one who

Maxie Chuck Who??

I do Want Answer, but as you have said I am not getting any proof of any kind.
But that will not Stop me from trying.
I want to END this Once and For ALL, For ALL PRA MEMBERS.
I owe Sunstate Members that much.
Hey Tom Milton is there anywhere we can view the Documents we need to read and see for ourselves??
I like Mentone and the Airport would hate to every loss it if not a Gain for PRA Members.

MJ :)

[Rotornut]

Chuck get on that Articile! Geeez What better person to write it up than You. Come on do it for Sunstate. You have been a Past President of Sunstate and you know how hard it is to get Members Participation, so with that in mind, HELP. I for one vote that you Start Today. MJ :)

[Dean_Dolph]

Hey, Chuck, we don't need Rick to do the pestering when MJ is on the job!

For those that don't know or never paid any atttention, Chuck was the technical editor for the magazine for many years. I've never inquired why and I'm not going to ask now but without any announcement Chuck was replaced by Rusty Nance. I'm certainly not saying that Rusty wasn't capable but I miss Chuck's occasional comments to clarify others presentations and the articles he used to write.

Todd suggested the following in the Forum - Poll: How to Make a Better Magazine "..... a monthly - "On the Web" column. Simply a column that sums up some of the discussions on this forum as well as the Australian and UK forums."

I think that is a great idea and if he has the time then I'm hoping he passes it by Rick and then supplies the column. I suggesting that Chuck, again if he has the time, use this forum to capture the tech theme of the month and use it as the subject for a monthly article. Maybe the pro aviation journalist who visits here, that is if there isn't some conflict with his employer, would be willing to kick in a few words occasionally.

I think it pretty obvious that this thread has been highjacked and you know what, I don't feel bad about it! However I think that it would be better if the last few messages relating to the magazine were moved to another Forum and a new thread started.

[Heron]

Get our magazine with another publication, they will be glad to have another 2000+ issues and data base (that we are not using)
The interactive web site is another thing we need, and having a annual CD with all the issues (magazine) would be a good thing for the library rats.
When I got my CD from Patrick Howell the first thing I did was print a copy and had it like a book, bed side, at the trone and so on . . .
Lets get this going and it will be a success!
The yearly CD could contain pics, fly-ins stuff and much more.
They cost peanuts and the mailing bulk is around 34 cents.
Heron

[gyromike]

Posted this and then realized that I had another question for you. A lot of people use the term 'interactive' these days and a most of the time I'm not sure in what context. In this case what does 'interactive' mean?

Dean,

When I said interactive, I meant a website that would allow users to register on their own which would allow them to recieve email updates when new material is posted, submit stories, search through different catagories of info, etc.

PRA members could have the registration upgraded to allow them to access the magazine, whereas casual visitors would be limited to the 'public stuff'.

There are many new Content Management Systems (CMS) available now that allow selected users to make updates to the website with the same ease that we are able to make posts to this forum. No knowledge of HTML, PHP, MySQL, etc., is needed. You simply login and type a new article, announcement, or newsletter.

For example, Gary G. could login and update a President's column. Tom Milton could do the same for a chapter coordinators corner. Someone else could post an article on Safety. The CMS software would format it to the style of the website, and publish it. No code, no debug, no upload.

Many CMS systems have a FAQ utility that allow visitors to submit the question, which is then reviewed by the FAQ manager who can edit/delete/answer the question, and then publish it on the website.

This Forum is an example of an interactive site. You type the info you want on the screen, and it formats it for you. As a registered user, you don't have to know how how to code a page...VBulletin does it for you.

A static page, like the current PRA site requires someone knowledgable in coding to make the changes, or create a new page, debug it, then upload it to the site. It takes time to do this. But first you gotta learn the language. It ain't that hard...but it does take time.

I have been experimenting with CMS's recently. I set up an Apache server on my computer so that I can test different configurations without having to upload everytime I wanted to view a change. I did upload a PostNuke version to my website at www.gyromike.com (http://www.gyromike.com/index.php). There isn't much there, and I haven't decided whether or not to keep this CMS yet. I'll have to try out a few more.

[Rotornut]

Heron, Alan Uhr a Sunstate Member handed out CDs with all types of Gyros and Etc, at BD 2004 to almost all who attend that wanted one. It is a Great CD, along with others that Alan donated to Sunstate. Thanks Alan Uhr. MJ :)

[Rotornut]

As for the Magazine I miss RED! (Stephanie) MJ :)

[jamiebodie]

MJ, I am glad to hear Alan's CD turned out well. I was able to give him several gigabytes of pictures that I have on my computer to choose from, combined with what he had it should be awesome. If you see Alan ask him to send me a copy of the CD that he gave out.

jb

[GyroRon]

All the ideas are good and I like them all, But I also like magazines I hold in my hand and read while doing my business. Got to pass the time there somehow.....

[jamiebodie]

We could save a great deal of money if we would just ask some people to volunteet to receive the electronic version of the magazine. The dues should remain the same, at least for now, for all members and this would be done to help generate some revenue for the PRA. I would sign up for the electronic version in a heart beat. One way to draw people towards signing up for the electronic copy is to release it the day the mags are mailed out, that way the electronic version would arrive several days before the print version.

Someone needs to get with Rick and see if this idea could actually save us money.

[jamiebodie]

All the ideas are good and I like them all, But I also like magazines I hold in my hand and read while doing my business. Got to pass the time there somehow.....

Ron you could print out some or all of the magazine to accompany you to your reading room.

Jamie

[Rotornut]

I think Alan comes and reads here from time to time. Hey ALAN UHR you out there. MJ :)

[Heron]

I Remember that move, thanks Alan. I would love to have a CD.
My collection of CD's was taken from inside my car and broken in to pieces by someone, I have no idea who would do that.
There were CD's all over the place, like frisbees and I could only save 4 that still open the files to be copied.
Someone hates gyros, or they only wanted the case they were inside . . .:(
Heron

[PW_Plack]

Transitioning the magazine to the web would be great, but it's much harder to sell the advertising on a website. If a significant number of members opted out of the hard-copy magazine for a dues reduction, you might lose more in ad revenue than you saved in production and mailing costs.

Besides, it's hard to leave a website in the magazine rack at the barber shop or the FBO's pilot lounge. That's what I do with my old copies of Rotorcraft. :)

[pwendell]

How about if we start issuing electronic editions of Rototrcraft during the months when no hardcopy magazine is sent. Let the current advertisers have two or three free electronic issues so they can evaluate the response. If the magazine goes all electronic, all memebers should be sent a CD/DVD-ROM at the end of the year containing all that year's issues plus whatever special materials advertisers would like to contribute, for a modest fee, of course. Advertisers could supply videos, interviews, drawings, testimonials, etc. to reach their customers is a more detailed and entertaining manner. The CD could also contain PRA extras like the award ceremonies from Mentone, flight-line footage, a 'Message from the President', etc.

I think this should be done ASAP, at least on a trial basis.

[Ron Black]

Greetings,
This forum is a very, very good and informative vehicle for rotor craft lovers and dreamers as well.
Years ago, 10 to be exact, I was a member of PRA.
I joined up and read a whole box full of PRA back issues that I got for 100.00 bucks.
Recently I got the fever again and I contacted PRA by e-mail for there fax number.
I wanted to fax my credit card info to them for member ship, plus a few back issues.
The form on the site for which to join up has no place for adding the back issues I wanted. This is the reason for the fax number.
Well it was over a week, maybe two, before my e-mail was answered.
There is nothing on the site about a fax number.
Meanwhile, while surfing the gyro sites, I came across the link for this forum.
Since I found this forum I have been so busy reading every day, I have yet to
join the org.
I believe this forum url should be advertised by every one on it in order to get
information out to wannabees.
I strongly beleive in computers and e-commerce -e-information.
Case in point, the recoil pre-rotator.
Some very nice person took his digital camera on a trip and instantly e-mailed to the forum wonderful close up pictures. You cannot beat that with a stick.
I will not be posting to regular as I do not have a lot to offer in the line of gyros.
So while I am on here any way, some one might offer as to the where abouts of Marion Springer and Bill Parsons.
I had met Bill at OshKosh a few years ago and he was very interesting to speak with.
I believe we are very fortunate to have people that are pioneers and all the others that offer up problems and hopefully solutions on this forum.
Folks lite Beaty and Taggart and all of you that contribute to this forum
KEEP IT UP Ron

[Heron]

That seems like a good idea!
Reduce the number of issues, make'm bigger and more filtered, one month electronic the other month both.
So you have your keepers and instant access to info and pictures.
Heron

[Alan Uhr]

Last year I compiled all of my rotorcraft photos and with the help of others who sent me their photos, (Jamie Bodie) and others I made a CD with thousands of Photos and a few short Videos.
I would be glad to provide a copy to anyone who e-mails me. The cost at Bensen Days was FREE. If I have to mail one out it will cost for the shipping. I don't know how much that is, but it can't be more that a few bucks. Or, I will be at Bensen Days again this year and would be glad to bring a bunch there.
If you want me to mail you a copy, send an e-mail to me at
FlyingGyros@tampabay.rr.com
Alan Uhr
I have a personal limit of 100. It gets pricy after that.

[TomCarlisle]

Marion Springer lives next to El Mirage and will be there if her health permits. Last year she visited almost every day and was busy writing a book. I can't wait to get a copy. She is a very impressive woman.

[Ron Black]

I have never met Marion, but I read so much about her in those old back issues, I felt like I knew her personally. Glad to hear she is still around. Ron

[gyroguy]

Since I've edited a magazine or two, maybe I can remove some of the mystery about how one gets printed. I'll asume that the editor has all the articles and photos available for one issue of the magazine.

There needs to be a layout for each page that shows the exact position of every headline, photo, photo caption, text block, page number, etc. All of these pieces must be identified so there's no chance of using the wrong one.

Usually the advertising manager puts the advertising in first. Whatever space is left over is called the "news hole"--for the stories and photos. Rotorcraft Magazine has no ad manager, so the editor does that job. In magazines I have edited, the advertisers provided their own ads, ready to use. If they needed to have ads laid out, we socked them with a layout charge. Rotorcraft Magazine lays out ads for advertisers for free, I believe, and because there is no ad manager, it's the editor's job. By the way, an ad manager solicits more advertising for the magazine, thus having advertisers pay more of the costs. Too bad PRA's magazine doesn't have one.

Each photo must be cropped--meaning, put marks on the photo so it will fit the block of space set aside for it. The photo is then sized--meaning the percentage size the photo must be enlarged or reduced to fit the space.

Each headline must fit the space available, so headlines must be sized in terms of height using points, which are 1/72 of an inch. The type font, style, and leading must be specified. Leading--pronounced led-ing--is the amount of space between lines of type.

What's done for headlines also has to be done for body copy in text blocks and for photo captions. Usually an editor has a specific body type style and specific headline styles that are used for consistency.

When I started in printing, everything was "hot type"--meaning it was all metal type, and the leading was made out of strips of lead pounded into the chase with a leather mallet. The body type came from a linotype or from type in California job cases, and set on a composing stick. Of course the type was backwards, so you had to learn to read backwards. The real fun was after the printing was done and the type was pied--dumped in a pile and cleaned with solvent, then sorted back into the job cases. Sorting type at the Territorial Enterprise newspaper in Virginia City was my first job in journalism. They called it a "printer's devil."

Later on, printing went to "cold type"--meaning a photographic process of making printing plates. The layouts still had to be done, but the type could be set, a proof of it pulled, and the proof pasted to a layout sheet with hot beeswax. Black blocks were left for photos, which had to be screened-- meaning broken up photographically into little dots. The resulting "halftone" negative would later be taped into the larger Kodalith negative used to make the printing plates.

Today, a computer can be used with a desktop publishing program to set the type, make the layouts, insert the photos, and insert headlines, photo captions, type, etc. This is the process used to "print" most newspapers and magazines today. The difficulty is that this ISN'T printing, it's only preparation for actual printing.

A huge camera makes a huge negative on Kodalith film, which after retouching is used to burn a printing plate. Before the magazine goes to press, a blueline is made. This is simply a diazo-process like making a blueprint. And it is indeed a blueprint, because it goes back to the editor, who checks every comma to correct all typographical errors, etc., before the magazine is printed. The corrected blueline goes back to the printer, who makes the changes in his computer, then prepares the magazine for printing. I'll add that ANY changes after the blueline are horribly expensive to make.

The printing plate is mounted on a rotary offset press, on which one offset roller inks the plate and the plate inks the paper that runs through. If there were color photos, the page runs through four separate presses. The presses have to operate in such perfect coordination that there is zero slip on the printing. The paper is on a huge roll, and it is pulled through the press and called web-fed. At the far end of the press, after both sides are printed, the pages are cut, collated, assembled, and stapled. This is how the magazine is printed today.

Obviously the initial production costs are primarily getting the magazine ready to print. Color pages are most expensive. The cost-per-copy goes down when more copies are printed. The reason, of course, is that after the press is set up, the major cost is running the press and paying for the paper, ink, and final assembly of the product. Print a million copies, and the set-up costs become a very minor factor. Print 2,000 and the set-up costs are a more major factor.

Magazines are usually printed in 16-page signatures--meaning the "unit" of printing is 16 pages. The reason for this is that 8 pages will fit nicely on the width of paper on the roll. Print both sides, and you have a total of 16 pages. So it is possible to print 8 pages in color and print the 8 pages on their backs in black ink only. Usually the covers are printed on heavier paper to make the magazine last longer.

With the cost of motor fuel going up, paper costs will surely rise, making the cost of magazine production rise with it. We could probably make up for this if we doubled the PRA membership. The other ways to compensate are to decrease the number of magazines yearly, decrease the number of color pages, or decrease the number of pages in an issue. Of course, if any of these things happen, it would be the editor's fault and getting a new editor will solve the problem.

Now, let's discuss the idea of having both a printed magazine and an Internet magazine. If you followed the printing discussion, the obvious conclusion is that when you print fewer copies, the per-copy cost goes up. If you want BOTH a printed magazine AND an Internet magazine, you will have to pay more per copy for the printed edition.

The per-copy cost of posting the magazine on the Internet is negligible, except for the set-up cost of getting the magazine ready for posting. That cost will be about the same as it is now, since that's part of what the editor is being paid to do.

The only hidden cost is what it will cost the PRA members to print copies on their own computer printers at home. It won't take many 64-page magazines to empty the color print cartridges in a typical printer. The ones in my printer cost $70 to replace, so I'll probably just peek at the Internet magazine's image on the computer instead of printing everything.

Hope this gives some perspective.

--Kerry Cartier

[jucie]

Very informative, Karry. Thanks.

Considering the fact that paper magazines production and distribution cost are rising, while Internet is becoming widely accepted as information media, it will be harder and harder to justify a printed magazine.

Of course you can carry the printed magazine inside a bag (as you could by printing a web page at will), but content rich sites, as this one, could bring as much technical info and news as a printed magazine, but a A LOT MORE, as everybody knows. What about asking a pile of printed issues of a magazine to "search" itself for every article of a specific writer?

Deeper technical presentations, along the lines of a magazine monthly column, could be made even at the internet. It's a matter of organizing writer efforts to produce material using a specific magazine format.

[PatONeal]

Kerry,

Not a lot of us left that have even heard of a linotype or know that a drawer from a California type case was not originally intended to be a shadow box.

Great explanation.

Pat O'Neal

[Shadow]

"Not a lot of us left that have even heard of a linotype or know that a drawer from a California type case was not originally intended to be a shadow box."


There not many Linotypes or Monotypes or Ludlows left outside of museums. I got my 25 year pin from the ITU just before they merged with the Communications Workers of America Union.

The synopsis of printing was quite thorough. It brought back many memories.

[Doug Riley]

Bill Parsons died in the crash of his trainer 4-5 years ago. The joystick (which had been re-bent a couple times, according to those who knew Bill) broke off, the machine came in hard and both Bill and his student died.

[Heron]

Ok . . .lets elaborate on 6 issues a year, thicker and fuller?
INternet issue evrymonth, interactive and the issues to keep or thake it with you on trips away from the keyboard . . .
Maybe my guess on number of pages/impact on costs is not right.
And setting up a distributor's network to get more subscribers would help in the financial aspect.
Heron

[Hognose]

Alright --

Everybody who skimmed Kerry Cartier's post, go back and jolly well read it. That is what we are asking our editor to do, all that "stuff." Layout and all are enormously easier with modern computer systems, but there are still all kinds of things that can go wrong between the layout and the customer's mailbox.

I'd also like to point out that a one-man operation, as Rotorcraft needs must be (except, of course, for contributions), means that there is no second set of eyes to catch an error. This is how typos, reversed photographs, and various other gremlins make their mischievous way into the pages of the magazine. (The same thing happens when you design, build, maintain, and preflight your own aircraft in one collossal ego trip).

Now, let me address the differences between content for web and content for print media.

Print:
1. more readable/clearer
2. MUCH higher quality photo reproduction (technically, anyway)
3. durable to a degree
4. Hard to find stuff (which issue? which page? Where are all the references to this?)
5. 2-dimensional
6. linear content
7. place easily marked
8. portable, but must be physically carried; still, no infrastructure needed
9. Information can & must be disseminated on a schedule

Web
1. harder to read/lower resolution
2. Image quality trades off with bandwidth -- most users will NOT wait for a truly high resolution image to load, which they mostly haven't a monitor that will display creditably.
3. Tends to be ephemeral (perhaps this is changing, because everything can be indefinitely archived)
4. trivial to index and search
5. multidimensional -- scrolls and clicks can take you far afield
6. highly nonlinear content
7. place easily lost
8. available everywhere; but certain infrastructure is required
9. Information may be disseminated on schedule, as-available, or both.

Many more cues for online usability are found at the excellent www.useit.com web site of Jakob Nielsen. But my point is that such different media demand different styles of writing; and that a print magazine ought to play to its advantages.

What works in the mag, but not as well on the web?
• Pictorials, a/c features, photo essays
• Long pieces (folks have more patience with print)
• Tech Articles that you would take to the hangar or shop
• Articles with a lot of dense text (much easier to read paper than screen)
• Articles with equations or sketches. (typesetting equations is a PITA, but putting them on the web is sheer blue murder).

What works better on the web?
• Things that refer to other sources of information (make 'em links)
• Short pieces
• Photos where super detail doesn't matter
• Really large collections of "stuff", i.e. fly-in photos.
• Things that people will approach from a lot of different angles
• Showing motion
• Interactivity, user participation
• Immediate or interactive elements.
• Stuff that needs to be archived "forever," but remain accessible.

These lists are far from complete, and some of them could be argued. The point remains, print and web are different. 2000 and 2001 were awash in the bones of projects that tried to reproduce print magazines on the web, usually without taking these fundamental differences into account.

cheers

-=K=-

[jamiebodie]

Kevin wrote:
I'd also like to point out that a one-man operation, as Rotorcraft needs must be (except, of course, for contributions), means that there is no second set of eyes to catch an error. This is how typos, reversed photographs, and various other gremlins make their mischievous way into the pages of the magazine. (The same thing happens when you design, build, maintain, and preflight your own aircraft in one collossal ego trip).

Gary G. and Glenn B. both proof the mag. before it is published.

Jamie

[donshoebridge]

Jamie,

This is news to me. I'll look into that one.

[barnstorm2]

Great posts!

When I got the magazine in the mail I was SO glad I could stuff it in my backpack and read it in small pieces over my very busy weekend. Also, I received my two EAA magazines ( great LittleWing article! ) and did the same with them.

It would be great to be able to go to the web and get extra info/pictures on some of these articles. But what also came to mind is exactly what Hognose posted above "2000-2001 awash in the bones of projects that tried to reproduce print magazines on the web". I have seen many such web-collaborations fail. The fact we have a volunteer run system makes this even more difficult.

I contribute articles to Rotorcraft and my local Ultralight club. For any articles that I write I will be happy to add additional web content.

Perhaps whomever volunteers to become the new or assistant PRA webmaster can make it possible for contributors to use a template so material can be added/updated easily without a great deal of html / .php skill.

[Heron]

WE can do it, and have capabilites available.
The web magazine will be the collector of ideas and inicitial pieces and pics.
The magazine will come with the selected pics, extended articles and things like FAA rules, etc.
They will complement each other but the web will be more of a means of support to the magazine that will be reduced in issues and grow in size and importance.
A bigger issue will be more atractive and we can sell it to a broader audience.
Interchange of articles will be a good thing with other publications, we want to get space with them and they with us.
Lets make it very solid and give the editors more time to work and prepare.
The centerfold poster will be something to cherish for long!
WE got the numbers, we got the money, lets rack it up!
Heron

[j4flyer]

PRA 5 went to a web based news letter. We put all the same topics into it and even added some additional photos. The end result is that we lost membership. We started up the old news letter format six months ago and, membership has increased (doubled). We polled the membership and learned that the news letter was thought of as a historical document that could be put away. It could also be read at their convience without the need to purchase a printer or in some cases computers. The news letter represented "something for their money", a value. I believe PRA would discover the same thing as we did if they were to pursue this idea, another substantial drop in membership. A call to the EAA confirmed that these are similar reasons for their continuing of Sport Aviation magazine. EAA would also stand to increase their profits by doing the web thing but, they have ruled it out. Another side benifit of a nice news letter or magazine is the ability to place it at a local airport for other pilots to read. We have gained some membership from doing this.

[donshoebridge]

As a side note, I mentioned to the Editor (Rich I think, I'm terrible with names) that it would be nice to offer back issues of the magazine on CD, like for a full year for $10 or something. Right now there is a room at Mentone that is FULL of back issues and that room might be better used for something else if it were emptied of the magazines and replaced with a box of CD's.

[Heron]

J4Flyer . . .look deeper in to the reasons and motives for changes.
Adding something should not be a reason for dropping, we can have both and better.
A web site needs to be ranked and promoted, just having one online is not enough.
The airport exposure should have been already in place and done by the chapters under PRA guidance.
Do not think membership, think general public, people that are in the edge of becoming aviation involved. Those are the millions not the thousands.
I do not envy people involved in other types of aviation, untill they take of . . .the enthusiasm is the same we have and the love for theyr hobby too.
But I have seen faces when confronted with gyro performances against they machines expecially those with canopies.
Heron

[gyroguy]

It sounds to me as if what's wanted are:

1) A printed PRA magazine, and

2) A Web-based PRA magazine that's supposed to be a GYRO KITPLANES (I did that in caps because the name KITPLANES is in caps in their magazine).

Trouble is, we still have only one Rotorcraft Mgazine editor. We still have only person on the magazine's staff. And, as previous comments have noted, many of the people who would like to see a bigger, better magazine have not contributed stories to it.

Ralph Taggart, who started this thread, is one of the most intelligent people in gyrodom. Designing an ultralight gyro is quite a trick! Ralph, when you read this post, think when you last wrote some of what you know for an article in Rotorcraft magazine. Guys, that is not a cutting remark, and Ralph, please take no offense. I'd like to read more of what you write. But I realize that whenever anyone writes anything for Rotorcraft Magazine, he's doing it out of his own pocket. Rotorcraft Magazine doesn't pay for contributions. So we're essentially asking Ralph or anyone else to research and write for free and use his own time to do it.

While we'd all like a bigger, better magazine, Rotorcraft Magazine isn't going to be GYRO KITPLANES. PRA hasn't got enough money to pull that off.

Rather than rain on everyone's parade, I'll suggest an alternative.

First, keep the print version of Rotorcraft magazine. If we ever convince PRA to get rid of the printed Rotorcraft magazine, we'll never get it back.

Second, the Rotary Wing Forum is an Internet site. Nothing prevents anyone from starting a magazine right here. True, it won't be a genuine, authorized, legitimate PRA magazine, but so what? Start it as a thread, and after setting policy on what its content should be, post nothing but well-researched, well-written articles with photos available by link. Let's call it (drum roll) (trumpets) GYRO KITPLANES!

--Kerry Cartier

[Heron]

Kerry . . .good intentions on your post!
I do not like the idea of going outside PRA, my idea is having PRA organized and organizing this kind of efforts.
WE need the numbers and to hold hands more tightly, just have a bigger umbrella for our group.
Heron

[barnstorm2]

Kerry, I think that is an excellent idea.

After my articles are published perhaps I can re-post them here ( full version if they get edited down) and add any extra info I can. Assuming Todd thinks it is a good idea and starts a thread. I do have to get permission to do this as when you submit an article and pictures technically it becomes property of the publisher.

Eventually, I will try and write some articles that would not be so good for the magazine (broad audience) but might work well here. There is a GPS article that has been bouncing around in my head but I doubt it would be of broad enough interest to be submitted to a magazine.

Alan Uhr in the simular thread "How to make a better magazine" in post #74 makes a good point. If everyone who is bellyaching about having a better website and magazine would put forth the effort to send in a photo, article or post an article here we would be overwhelmed with material.

Any effort made here would certainly not be wasted if the PRA gets a 'full-time' volenteer web master as I would think he/she would we willing to repost the material generated here on an 'official' web site.

Time to $h_t or get off of the pot?

[donshoebridge]

Gary G. and Glenn B. both proof the mag. before it is published.

This is an incorrect statement. I have been informed that neither Glenn or Gary currently proof read the magazine. Glenn use to when Steph Gremminger was the editor, but he only did it for a few months. The lack of time stopped him from being able to do it anymore. I don't know any more details about Gary's proof reading.

[pwendell]

It sure needs a proof reading. I'm not all that particular about typos, mispellings and punctuation errors, but some ROTORCRAFT articles have so many errrors that the flow and content are adversely affected.

[Heron]

Why should it be a volunteer webmaster?
Heron

[donshoebridge]

Why should it be a volunteer webmaster?
Heron

Because everyone is always giving advise for free, saying things like "all we have to do", when they really mean "all you have to do". If someone wants to do something positive for the gyro community, then do it for free! If we are the PRA, then damn it, we should be baring the burden of/for the PRA. We're all quick to give advise, but rarely does anyone really do anything. It's time for people to put their money where their mouth is!

As for the web page, a well laid out and thought out ASP/Database driven web page would not take that much maintenance once it was designed. Once the core of the code was written, hell, anyone could update the Access database and the web page would automatically update accordingly. Example: With date driven SQL calls from the ASP page, an "Events" page could automatically update to show only the events for the next 3 months. Everything previous would not be displayed. I know it can be done because I've seen ASP code that does just that (on a much smaller scale). And I would write/maintain the website myself, but I don't know ASP well enough to do it. I can write Access databases that'll make your head spin, but I can't do ASP, so don't ask.

[PW_Plack]

If PRA could find a volunteer office staff, it would be almost instantly solvent again. The office costs about as much each year as total production costs of the magazine.

[donshoebridge]

If PRA could find a volunteer office staff, it would be almost instantly solvent again. The office costs about as much each year as total production costs of the magazine.

Can you suggest anyone local that would take the job? :)

[GyroRon]

Because everyone is always giving advise for free, saying things like "all we have to do", when they really mean "all you have to do". If someone wants to do something positive for the gyro community, then do it for free! If we are the PRA, then damn it, we should be baring the burden of/for the PRA. We're all quick to give advise, but rarely does anyone really do anything. It's time for people to put their money where their mouth is!

Don you know that some in this discussion are offering their two cents and then some, and yet they aren't even MEMBERS of the Pra?

[donshoebridge]

Don you know that some in this discussion are offering their two cents and then some, and yet they aren't even MEMBERS of the Pra?

Yeah, I know. I get the feeling that they will not join until the PRA is more to their liking.

I have a message to those that haven't joined yeat... Lead, follow or get the hell out of the way! In other words, if you don't like the PRA, either join and change it from within, start your own organization, or shut up! You're not doing anyone any good by not doing anything. So get your credit card out and spend the $35. Otherwise, stick a sock in it.

Todd, how about a field in everyones profile for their PRA number? Better yeat, make it a rule that you must display your PRA number in your signature.

[jamiebodie]

This is an incorrect statement. I have been informed that neither Glenn or Gary currently proof read the magazine. Glenn use to when Steph Gremminger was the editor, but he only did it for a few months. The lack of time stopped him from being able to do it anymore. I don't know any more details about Gary's proof reading.

You are correct. From what I gather Gary also stopped proffing it at some point. I know at one of the board meetings it was brought out that they were both proofing the mag. I never heard any different so I assumed all was the same. You know what assUme can do.

Jamie

[gyroguy]

Don you know that some in this discussion are offering their two cents and then some, and yet they aren't even MEMBERS of the Pra?

Time for a dissenter's opinion, I guess...

Who says that someone has to be a member of PRA to offer their two cents? Does being a PRA member automatically gives the person posting more intelligence? Does this forum require PRA membership to comment on this thread?

I don't think so.

In the past few weeks, I've commented on some of the political candidates for whom I have no intention of voting. And as an Independent Secessionist ("This country was run better when the Indians were doing it")--I'm not a member of any of their political parties.

Using the "only PRA members should have a say" credo, I should not be able to comment on the candidates from other parties.

Let's change the credo and give everybody a chance to post anything about PRA. Who knows, maybe people who are not PRA members can contribute some ideas that would make the organization better? But if you discourage them from posting, we will never know.

Last thing, I realize that since I am a PRA member, anything I post here is written by somebody more intelligent, more knowledgeable, more experienced, and more caring than any non-PRA person... if you believe that, I have a bridge you might like to buy in Brooklyn (grin).

--Kerry Cartier

[donshoebridge]

You are correct. From what I gather Gary also stopped proffing it at some point. I know at one of the board meetings it was brought out that they were both proofing the mag. I never heard any different so I assumed all was the same. You know what assUme can do.

I got this information directly from Glenn. I don't know for sure if Gary is proofing the mag anymore or not. The impression I got from Glenn was that Gary hasn't been doing it. But for sure Glenn hasn't been proofing the mag for quite awhile.

[donshoebridge]

Time for a dissenter's opinion, I guess...

Kerry,

Positive, constructive input is always welcome from anyone, and I'm sure Ron feels tha same way. But like him, I am frustrated by the people that sit outside and throw stones. I'm of the opinion that if you want to help, then get in here and help, because adding your 2-cents to an already unstaffed, under financed and over critisized mass (the PRA) isn't helping anyone.

Basically, those with more mouth than motivation are more of a problem than a solution. And so I don't look like I'm a hypocrite, the next Rotorcraft mag will have an article from me. :)

[Heron]

Ahem!!! Cof ...cof...cof...
Just clearing my throat . . .:D
I am one of those pointed out by Ron & Don (promise you will sing at the next fly-in)
I am a member of the PRA, in my heart at least, I want to see it better.
I just can't send in my dues like I promised Tim B. and Tom M. that INVITED ME to do so and than have my rigth of speech cleared by Sir Ron of Carolinas.
As far as the stones, if they are what I have thrown, better look again . . .they are not stones, I kidd around a lot and send some valuable suggestions for free, just in a jolt of passion!
Out of work since I came back from Brazil and with no regular income, I rather send the first money availabe to Sunstate, that have programs and schedules to meet and are in dire straits by Mother nature's actions.
PRA will suck a little longer without my 35 bucks and no one can shut me up till than!
It is a free country after all, right Habib?
If they had listened 3 years ago, we would not be having this conversation, my fees would not be needed.
Oh well . . .let's ride another storm . . .this is getting boring!!!
Heron

[donshoebridge]

I don't want this to turn into another pissing match, but where in my post did I say that YOU, specifically were the reason for my frustration? Did I say YOU were throwing stones? NO, I didn't! But for you to reply in the manner that you did would suggest that you are carrying a bit of guilt on your shoulders. I wasn't trying to single you out (or anyone else for that matter) to point blame. If you're broke, fine, so be it. As long as you're providing "positive and constructive input", I could care less how much money you have in your pocket.

My post was directed at those that would rather sit back and bitch about the PRA, yet not lift a finger to help them in any manner, and there are those that do just that. I don't know what your past level of involvement or support has been for the PRA, but if you, or anyone else wants to help the PRA, then find something to do and help. But don't follow the path that some others have taken. Don't bitch about the PRA unless you have a better idea AND you are willing to champion the idea to the very end.

[GyroRon]

It is one thing to be a part of the gyro community, that we ALL are, Member of PRA or Sunstate or Chapter whatever OR not.

But to be a member of the PRA - Which is not the same as a specfic chapter or just the " Family " as Mary Jane calls it - requires 35 bucks a year. I personally think the Magazine is not that good. I could easily get by without it. Besides the Magazine, I recieve no other goods or services that I can touch or feel, So In effect I am paying 35 bucks for a Magazine that I think is not that good.................. BUT........ I send in my 35 bucks because it is to support the cause, the Org. not for a magazine.

It is not that non members shouldn't have a opinion, or shouldn't shout their opinion either. But Heron you have made it out as your a member. You even said so above, but I can't find your name in the PRA member directory??? If you want to bitch a little that is fine by me. But if all you want to do is Bitch and offer ideas and so on - And to be fair to Heron, alot of his ideas are pretty darn good - Then Scrape the change out of the couch, or stand on the side of the road with a will work for a pra membership sign or do something to join. Then you can bitch and whine all day long and as a member you have the right to do so.

I am not a member of the EAA. I personally do not like the way they run things at the EAA. But I generally don't bitch about it, cause my bitching would do nothing. How could the EAA take my bitching seriously if I weren't even willing to join them first?

If your broke then I am sorry. Joining the PRA shouldn't be high on the priority list of anyone who is broke or just scrapping by. But if you fit in those shoes, then MY OPINION, is to instead of burning all that energy bitching about the PRA and offering all the fixes for the PRA... go out and do some odd jobs or deliver some newspapers or Whatever you can do to earn some extra spending cash and JOIN.

[Heron]

Hmmm . . .what would I do without your friendly advice. uh?
Burning energy . . .how much energy does a spring of water burns?
Can't you see I just put you on the spot light?
You are not good at criticising, do what you do best . . .support causes!
Why do you waste your so valuable time on me?
I am just poking fun at you and you do not realize . . .
It is cooking and I will serve if I think its good, palatable it is not enough for me, than you do not have to apologise, we are just exercising our futility and having a little fun , , ,that's all! :D
Heron

[GyroRon]

Heron I am not trying to advise you, or put you down. I just think it is silly to put down the PRA and come up with idea after idea to make it better, from the outside. Sorta like the knucklehead fixed wingers I run into that think they know more about a gyro than me, when they haven't even flown one before. I think most of your ideas are good, but If you were a member, I and I think most others would be more willing to listen.

[Rotornut]

Heron could you please email me or post it here your mailing address.

I think I will not get into this topic. Feelings get hurt. MJ :)

[Heron]

Ron . . .it is just a wave nothing more, I like to stir the pot and poke people, it is just my crooked way, you know . . .every good person has a little dark coner in its soul!
Heheheheheh . . . .
It is a way to keep bangging on the door and asking . . .Is there anybody in there?
M.J.
You can use my commercial address, as of Charlie I am unofficialy homeless, the roof caved in on my place.
117 N.W. 14th street
Pompano Beach - Fl - 33060
I dont think you will ever hurt my feelings, only when people say things I am not I get hurt and mostly they are right about me . . .a big pain in the ASS. :D
see you
Heron

[barnstorm2]

I support Kerry's concept that a good idea can come from anywhere but non constructive criticism is a different story.

In this Ron says it best. Herron, you and some others have posed good ideas and stimulated valuable discussions. However, when you arbitrarily put down the PRA and or say ‘this is how it should be done, currently it is a mess’ your statements hold little value when you wont take enough action on your own part to even join the PRA.

Ron has for some time been suggesting that if you would join the PRA your ideas and voice would go a lot further. I agree completely.

"Words divide us, actions unite us."

Just as we would be more productive taking some of your advice won’t you take some of ours?

If you join or not, I still want you posting your ideas, I consider you my friend, this is my advice in return for yours.

[Heron]

Good!
Now comes the challenge . . .
I will immediately rejoin IF (big if) from this Forum we start a program, supervised and made official by the PRA to finance training (pilots and instructors).
It will take money to the level of one dollar a month from all the membership and donations from anyone willing.
I will create and run the web page and we are going to put out a system to distribute the scholarship.
Or we are going to wait maybe another week to see my dues at PRA HQ and then I will raise hell on earth, no more funny jokes about incompetence.
Ah . . .just remember: my opinion is never humble! :)
Lets get ready to rumble!!!!! :D
Heron

[gyroguy]

OK, the dissenting opinion is back.

Obviously, none of you guys ever panned for gold in Alaska. I did. The whole idea is to get a partial pan full of sand and gravel, then wash away everything that isn't gold.

Of course, you're standing in water a little above freezing, or squatting over it. The water in the pan cones from the cold river, too. And it takes a bunch of water to slosh the pebbles and gravel and sand off the edge of the gold pan.

But you get to keep the gold.

So, with the spirit of applying stories to situations, I'll say that this forum is like panning for gold. This PRA thread is whatever's in the pan. The gold is the good ideas.

I found you have to pan away a lot of sand and gravel to get to the gold. Maybe the same here.

By the way, it didn't matter where the gold came from. PRA member or not, there are still good ideas. PRA member or not, there's always gravel.

As the Olympians said, "Go for the gold." The rest of the stuff is just gravel.

[Vance]

Heron, Let me see if I understand your post. You want the PRA, that you don't belong to, to hire you and pay you money that they don't have to solve a problem they don't have. If they don't and you send your dues you will become even less funny and more critical of the wonderfull people who donate their valuble time to promote fun and safty. What did I miss?
Kerry, I admire your perspective, but the water is a little too cold and there seems to be too little gold and too much gravel. Thank you, Vance

[donshoebridge]

Vance,

The reply to your post should be a good one. I can't wait to see where this goes! :)

[Heron]

So . . .no Gold for Mr. Bold? :)
A terrible thing has happened, I made a man blind and we need his vision . . .
Vance I am sorry for throwing sand in your eyes . . .
NO . . .I did not!
We are going to create a program, finance it, give it to the PRA to supervise and spread the word.
Be careful Mr. VAnce, you are seeing ghosts . . .
And the PRA will get my 35 immediatly . . .how about that?
Now it is going to get better . . .You Mr. VAnce pick a program and I will join and help, feels better?
One program, anyone that is new and it is going to help the PRA but there is a catch . . .it can not be a program that I have presented here, agree?
Heron

[Vance]

Heron, Based on my observation of you and until you show me otherwise, I beleive that you are going to screw up everything you touch. I think that it would be nice to see you make a positive contribution to the PRA. I would not want to limit your chances of success by not using any of your great ideas that I have not been able to recognise in your posts. Give it your best shot and do something. You will be better for it. Thank you, Vance

[barnstorm2]

Vance,
I will have to come to Heron's defense on this one. Once he posted that after Mentone is paid off we should leverage this and buy additional regional airports in the West and deep South. This would allow us to have safe, insured airports for conventions as well as a funding source for the PRA. This would negate the problems we had with the loss in TX and still allow the convention to 'rotate' around the country. The local PRA chapters in each region could then 'compete' to host the convention at their regional PRA owned airport. Everyone wins. You get a convention near you every three years, hosted by the most active chapter in the region and the PRA's funding woes are reduced and no last min. 'oops-can't hold the convention here cause the local's don't like us or wont' insure us' bugger ups.


There is your nugget Kerry! :)

[Vance]

Hi Tim, Buying a lot of airports with money we don't have is hardly an original thought. Givin the finanical risks that certain individuals took and the negative reaction that it has caused, it seems unlikely that anyone would step out that far again. The price the PRA paid for the airport made it almost a gift from the enthusist who owned it previously.

I admire your positive spin and in deference to you I will try to learn to be more positive in the way I express myself.

I react badly when someone threatens to increase their criticism of volunteers. I love the people, like yourself, who work to promote fun and safty. Thank you, Vance

[barnstorm2]

Vance, you have typed my thoughts exactly.

Hard working PRA members that have taken thousands of dollars out of their pockets with out hesitation time and again, put their butts on the line underwriting the risky venture of buying an airport for the PRA as well has hundreds of hours of volunteer time.. smart enough as successful business people to set it up as advised by legal counsel get what? Thanks? No, they get nit-pick blasted with ridiculous hypothetical BS by people with an unrelated personal agenda. But that is another thread entirely.

I would like to someday be a part of helping the PRA enact Herons’ idea as stated above even if it comes with no thanks and a lot of back-seat BS.

I as I assume you are also, a bit tired of the real workers being too busy to comment or defend themselves whilst armchair pilots throw stones (gravel).

At least if those who criticize are PRA members they are showing the minimum initiative and are able to lift one cheek out of the chair to get $35 out of their wallet ;) And they can vote in the elections, assuming they can make the effort to get to the mailbox with a stamped envelope.

I guess this is were I come into contention with Kerry’s gold-nugget concept. I am a big fan of free speech but we do have to keep the gravel out at some point yes? I think opinions that come from people willing to go through the effort of joining the PRA are more likely to be ‘less gravel’.

I firmly believe the motto ‘Ask not what the PRA can do for you but ask what you can do for the PRA’.

I am willing to accept that a committee may do something I don’t like and that I advised against. I will still plug on where I can. That is better than a dictatorship, and just because a committee does not agree with me does not mean it is a dictatorship.

I guess I have a dream.. Someday I want to work out Heron’s plan on paper and with council and propose it to the board. If it works you guys make sure I give credit to Heron for the idea! And don’t forget not to let me bash the board or their members if they turn me down!!

Positiveness is a good point of yours also. Constructive criticism can come in many forms, such as proposing your own solution in detail for public scrutiny not just ripping on people for every thing you can think of (my point). Solutions are potentally viable from any souce (Kerry's point) but who's advice are you more likely to listen to on flying your gyro- A fixed winger or non-pilot or a gyro pilot (Ron's point).

[KDOG]

Hopefully I'm not repeating what someone else has already said, but maybe we could just email the magazines to members, that would ensure that only the members get them.

[barnstorm2]

Is there a problem with non-members getting mags? I give extra copies away to try and get people intrested in gyros...

[Heron]

I said here many times, I will buy the magazine the very moment it is available to non-members.
And I accepted the INVITATION Tim and Tom made me, few weeks back, but 4 hurricanes later I can not trade gas and food for PRA fees, and as I said I think my first club is in more need of my money that the BIG Kahuna!
I did offer suggestions, I do use irony, sarcasm, and jokes to get people to participate, even de angry ones, I am no humble, and I am a lot arrogant.
So what?
Get the nuggets and do something 'cause I can't . . .
few years ago (3) I had a job, not too bad . . .but I offered to quit and go work for the PRA, on comission, I make money for us and get a piece of it. everyojne wins and I think I can get more people to work full time in gyros if we can get them some kind of financial help.
We have the resources (members) and we can do it with planiing and leadership.
One dollar a month buys 2 new pilots a month and that is 24 new members per year, an accountant in the room? :D
We can finance the CFI's and get paid back with interests and training hours, same for the students, the snow ball effect will be noticeable in couple of years.
Where is you plan? Lets work together . . .
Heron

[barnstorm2]

My plan(s)

To make the magzine better: write and submit articles and encourge others to do so also.

To make the PRA stronger and better. Evanglise gyros 24/7 pass out flyers, take my gyro to airshows, fly my gyro. Be nice, answer questions I have heard a hundred times with a smile on my face.

To correct the misconeptions: I explain to closed minded FWers that declare my machine unsafe how gyros work and about CLT and HS. Maybe 1 out of 100 will get it.

Make the PRA Board better: Pay my dues, vote my heart and mind.

Make the fly-ins better: Attend. Bring a gyro if I can.

Make the Fourm better: Post my mind, apologise, dontate, help out newcomers anyway I can. No question is to dumb or beneath me.

Make Ron better: Got me there... ;)

Our Plan: Once I have paid my dues and have been around the block.. hopefully I will find an oppertunity to help the PRA get more airports located where they can do the most good for rotational events (pardon the pun). If the PRA wont help me with this that is ok. I will try and maybe I can do it anyway then donate the airport if I have to.

[rehler]

Tim, buying an airport will not help make a convention or fly-in money. Airports are free. There are small airports everywhere where fly-ins can take place without charge.

The "cost" is work effort by volenteers and some cost for food, awards, etc. Getting volenteers that will actually do the work is the hard part. If that was available we could have fly-ins all over the US every month.

You mentioned an airport as a "funding source". I don't believe airports make money. They normally need to be funded by a city or with other tax money. Do you know of any privately owned airport that makes a profit?

[barnstorm2]

Ken,
I am to new to have much first hand knowledge of many airports and their owners. You are absolutely correct. If airports are not a profitable form of business then my whole plan is awash.

I can tell you that people I know that get the money for the hangers, fuel and pilot shop make buckets of cash at my local airport but perhaps this is a also an incorrect assumption as my local airport is run by the county.

It seems to me that I have seen airports that did function wholly as business entities though so perhaps there is hope yet. I will have to look into this.

Can someone with fist hand knowledge here please either crush my hopes or give me some hope?

[Heron]

Tim O' your plan is good, more power to you . . .but it wasn't you I challenged is that guy that does not like to do the gravel work . . .
Cya
Heron

[gyroguy]

FYI, no intention in this post to point fingers at anybody or hurt anybody else's feelings. But someone should speak up about the Texas convention, and I guess it's me.

Here's what happens when you do a national PRA fly-in, guys. (Based on 2002 Convention in Texas)

1. We had three PRA chapters working on this for 9 months. (Preparing for the convention was THE activity in PRA Chapters 78 and 007.)

2. Waxahachie Airport manager was super guy, but his airport board (which set policy) required a $1 million liability insurance policy. (I'm still rankled about this.)

3. We tried to get more participation with "Bring your gyro, get in free." (This worked--there were more rotorcraft at the Texas convention than at Mentone in 2003 or 2004.)

4. We had committees for safety, briefings, tents, accommodations, RV/tents, programs, awards, commercial, flightline, contests, public relations, forums, etc. (In short, we worked our buns off to make the convention happen.)

5. We planned for much public interest and attendance because Dallas was 1/2 hour north. (This didn't happen--Dallas news media didn't promo the event.)

6. We had to put in electrical hook-ups for the RVs--then city made us leave them in the ground. (Big loss, there.)

7. We promoted the event by inviting every EAA chapter in Texas, every PRA chapter, and every PRA MEMBER in the US by e-mail and by mail. (Big effort, and we still don't know if it was worth it.)

8. We had everything from a female gorilla (not me, guys!) to a beauty contest, and what I still think was the best PRA convention yet.

9. We could control a lot, but the weather did us in. Windy, windy, windy, with rain, and Saturday the only really good flying day. (Good-bye, crowds!)

10. There was no convention at Mentone, but the local guys there held their own fly-in during the same time period as the national convention. (Result, these guys didn't have to go to Texas to go to a gyro fly-in.)

11. We lost about $5,000 of PRA money after everything was accounted for, and there are hard feelings yet about this in Texas and elsewhere. (One result was that PRA Chapter 78 dropped out of PRA completely and now functions on its own. PRA Chapter 007 has shrunk to a fraction of its former size.)

12. SUMMARY -- the impression I have is that Hades would ice over before any PRAers in Texas would even think about holding a national convention here again. (And I'm not buying any ice skates.)

My perspective? -- I'd like to have other places to go see gyros than Mentone, 1000 miles away. But sponsor a national PRA fly-in? Once burned, twice shy!

[Dean_Dolph]

Kerry, I'm not one to say 'I told you so!' only because I haven't. But as soon as I heard you guys had convinced the board, after several tries, to have the Convention in Texas I said to my self, self they don't have any idea what they are getting into! It was convenient for me since it was only four hours away but you instantly had my sympathy for what you were about to endure.

Chapter 62 hosted the 1990 Convention in Hearne, TX., as you know, and from that experience I learned to appreciate what the volunteers do to put on the Convention. Moving it around the country sounds good on paper and to those that don't want to drive very far but in reality it is very difficult to stage a successful one. Having a home base where the costs are pretty much fixed and known is a real plus. And with the improvements at Mentone it doesn't make sense to hold it anywhere else.

You guys did a great job all the way around with first rate facilities and a good program. But in my opinion you guys picked a poor time of year to have it. But then having it in Texas in July wouldn't have been swift either! I also don't believe the Mentone fly-in affected it one way or another. All of the main players from Mentone were in Texas. Why single out the local Mentone flyers as a problem, why not also recognize that there isn't much, if any, attendance from West of the Rockies? The number of machines at the Texas Convention really doesn't mean much when compared to the '03 or '04 Mentone attendance. Aviation event attendance in general is down all over. Bensen Days '03 looked like a ghost town compare to the other years I had been there.

Every time the Convention is brought up and someone wants to move it I end up sounding like a broken record when I continue to say; let the Convention home stay in Mentone and let the PRA officially recognize regional fly-ins like Bensen Days, ROC, El Mirage, one in the Pacific Northwest and possibly Shelbyville. And then provide some incentive for people to attend; like the competition program you guys put on in Texas.

It is my understanding that the PRA Board will entertain invitations to have the Convention away from Mentone. This is one thing I don't agree with the board on and if any Chapter is seriously thinking about hosting one then all I have to say is good luck cause you are going to need it!

Kerry, I owe you some Mentone '04 pictures so if I don't email them soon then remind me.

[donshoebridge]

You mentioned an airport as a "funding source". I don't believe airports make money. They normally need to be funded by a city or with other tax money. Do you know of any privately owned airport that makes a profit?

The Mentone convention is one of the biggest money makers for the PRA. It does make money for the PRA. The PRA might not make the same money if the convention was held at a different location as demonstrated when the Convention was moved to Texas one year. And please don't let that statement become a "Texas Convention" tangent.

[donshoebridge]

10. There was no convention at Mentone, but the local guys there held their own fly-in during the same time period as the national convention. (Result, these guys didn't have to go to Texas to go to a gyro fly-in.)

You're making it sound as if it was a requirement that ALL PRA members attend. NEW FLASH! I'm not driving to Texas for a Convention. Several reasons why - distance, weather, cost for the trip, distance. And there were a lot of people that felt the same way and ALL of them were from the upper mid-west (Indiana, Ohio, Michigan, etc.).

Now I'm all for having "a" Convention at a different location. But to have "the" Convention at a different airport, in a different state, at a different time, I don't think it was a very smart idea. Consistency is important and if the PRA keeps moving the Convention around to different locations, and hold it at different times, people are going to quit attending, membership is going to drop, and the PRA is going to be even worse off.

I'm all for multiple Conventions in different states. But since the PRA has an airport they can call their own, they should at least have a Convention in Mentone every year.

[barnstorm2]

Don, I agree consistency is a great value.

As you said though it is a long drive to TX or for that matter CA. However, if I lived in TX or CA it would be a long drive to Mentone.

Maybe I am all wrong here ( someone please set me straight) but would it not be good for the PRA to also support PRA members on the other corners of the country with their own regional rotorcraft ‘base’ to hold fly-ins? Would you non-east coasters like ‘The’ Convention near you once in a while?

Can someone tell me if they think a TX or a CA convention would be attended?

I still would like to know if airports make money or not. If airports don’t bring in funds I would just give this idea a miss and leave it up to the regional chapters.

[Rotornut]

Tim, Not sure I can remember what Charlie said, but it goes something like this we give the airport the takeoffs and landings for Federal funding support. Not sure I said this right. Maybe Chuck can straighten it out for us.

I know we give the Community of Wauchula lots of Business during the week of BD DAY. As for the Airport we have to contact the City Adminastrators 3 months ahead to schedule the dates for BD Days, in order to use the Airport for the week. Also we have to post a Notam for all to read.

MJ :)

[barnstorm2]

MJ,

Thanks!

You guys really bust butt for BDays and it is GREAT. It seems like we are really spoiled in the midwest and east with Mentone, BDays and ROC.

I was inspired my Herons' concept of having PRA owned Airports that are self-supporting $ wise and it seems to me this would support and inspire growth in other regions.

Now I am in doubt. Key to the concept is that the airports are self-funding and that the gyro pilots in the South West and West would and could use these airports to host fly-ing both gyro and non-gyro. It seems this may not be so. Maybe KenB Freedom Fly-in covers the needs of people in the West and there is no desire to have the advantages of an owned airport in that region.

[gyroplanes]

Maybe I am all wrong here ( someone please set me straight) but would it not be good for the PRA to also support PRA members on the other corners of the country with their own regional rotorcraft ‘base’ to hold fly-ins? Would you non-east coasters like ‘The’ Convention near you once in a while?

Can someone tell me if they think a TX or a CA convention would be attended?

I still would like to know if airports make money or not. If airports don’t bring in funds I would just give this idea a miss and leave it up to the regional chapters.

We have had airports and communities asking us to hold our convention with them.

The PRA board will be happy to hold our convention anywhere that can meet our criteria for lodging, runways and most importantly someone in the area that can set it all up and get the infrastructure in place.

During my time as a board member we have had conventions in Illinois (2 locations), Indiana (2 locations), Oklahoma (almost 2 locations), Texas (2 locations), California, Ohio (2 locations), and Tennessee.

All it takes is a nice friendly airport with a paved runway, reasonable areas to fly over, adequate accomodations and a willing and eager chapter to pull the whole thing off.

Can any airport make money these days? It's really tough. Indiana doesn't tax airports and airport office buildings. That's a major break. Mentone is a fairly low maintenance facility and I think we get a break here too as Glenn Bundy does most of it gratis. In my opinion the only thing making the PRA Mentone airport happen is the monthly PRA office rent, something another airport wouldn't benefit from.

[donshoebridge]

Currently, there is nothing preventing anyone from putting together a rotary winged fly-in. And really, there's nothing preventing anyone from holding a rotary winged convention somewhere other than Mentone. But one thing that keeps digging at me is that of the other rotary winged events that take place each year, why hasn't anyone gone that extra step to make it a second, third of forth PRA Convention?

Based on the information that I've heard recently, the Mentone Convention takes a lot of steps to make sure that all of the paper work is in order, mainly FAA stuff. From a legal standpoint, unless you have waivers from the FAA, you can't have bomb drop events, you can't have flight demos, etc. So how many clubs are going take the steps necessary to obtain these waivers? Also, if a club is going to be putting on a convention under the name of the PRA, should (shouldn't) the PRA get a major percentage of the profits?

Earlier stated, if the PRA were to buy another airport, it would really cheese-off some people. I'd have to agree. But now the next big question would be, does it matter who gets cheesed-off? I'd love to see the PRA own 4 or 5 airport in different corners of the US, so long as the PRA receives the money from the Conventions that are held each year. The money would go into a general fund and split up from there. That way, if one airport has a great turn-out, all airports benefit. This money could also be used to fund different things. I'd like to see the PRA start offering aircraft, liability, and injury insurance to it's flying members. To make this work, people will have to be motivated to take on the ownership of putting the Convention together and running it. It might be worth having a single group of people on the PRA payroll that puts on ALL of the different conventions, and their incentive would be a commission based on the number of people that pass through the gates during the event.

Feedback please...

[barnstorm2]

Thank goodness for Don.

That is the kind of strategy which appeals to my heart.

It is a plan that really appeals to me. 1. Funding other than membership. 2. Gyro growth/exposure 3. Not limited to gyro fly-ins. 4. Other parts of the country besides EC and MW.

Pity about the cheese…

[Gary_in_Orygun]

I'm not too happy to support an airport with my PRA membership that I will most-likely never see. Although, I guess I could say the same about my EAA membership. At least I have visited Oshkosh. But wait, EAA doesn't own the Oshkosh airport, does it? But I know it does own buildings and such there. And ya know what? I don't think EAA owns the Arlington, WA airport either for that large fly-n. How about the Florida airport for the EAA fly-in that part of the country?

I would like to have a fly-in out here (Oregon) sometime. I was hoping to make El Mirage to get a gyro fly-in fix, but that didn't happen either. It is still pretty far from here.

[Heron]

Draw a pentagon inside de country, use the existent fly ins as points
cross a line and voila, the cg of rotordom.
The 5 major fly-ins get to host the Convention, the meeting of the Board, the Big Kahunas all present, nothing to do with attendance of general public and giros.
Don't be knuckle head, the Directors have to be present by law, not the rest of the people.
The convention will be an extra magneto at the already supported, traditional, well toughtout fly ins.
It is only the meeting of the BOD that will move, the fly-ins have to be there already to host them.
That is my idea, lets grow the major fly ins and have the guys on that region see up close and personall the Gurus of Gyro Dom . . .
God have mercy!
Heron

[GyroRon]

[QUOTE=donshoebridge]You're making it sound as if it was a requirement that ALL PRA members attend. NEW FLASH! I'm not driving to Texas for a Convention. Several reasons why - distance, weather, cost for the trip, distance. And there were a lot of people that felt the same way and ALL of them were from the upper mid-west (Indiana, Ohio, Michigan, etc.).

QUOTE]

doesn't that just sound bad? I don't want to drive to Texas for a convention... Well Don, what about the guys from Texas? Should they have ot drive to Mentone every year to be able to attend a convention? I think it should be in a different location each year.

[PW_Plack]

What am I missing...why does a fly-in need to be an official "convention" to be worth doing? I'd be much more excited about something like "SX Days" that just gives guys who enjoy flying the chance to fly together. And I'll bet Scott could get away with a bomb-drop contest on his own strip without getting arrested.

These things never seem to be set up to attract the public. I just came back from El Mirage, where they set up five miles from the main road. The management of the Days Inn didn't even know the event had happened until they saw Todd's Dominator on the trailer in their parking lot the last night. The public had no clue all those gyros were just a few miles away, and in Adelanto, CA, anything is big news!

[Heron]

That is it!
The Convention has to happen for the PRA according to the by-laws and can be done anywhere in the country.
The fly-ins dont, they attend local chapters and groups, some are big enough to gett attention and we should help them with more of it, media, TV and massive attendance of those who can go.
If the convention rotates, the guys from one end of the earth can see the other guys, at least the BOD guys and have eye to eye discussion on subjects of interest.
As an extra attraction some gyro owners could choose that fly-in to attend sometime on their lifetime to interact with a bigger group.
Trying to find an airport right in the smack center of the US did not turn out very enticing to me, try and see for youselves!
The mass has to go where people are . . .
Heron

[Dean_Dolph]

.......Trying to find an airport right in the smack center of the US did not turn out very enticing to me, try and see for youselves!
The mass has to go where people are . . .
HeronHeron, Have you ever heard of Oshkosh?

[donshoebridge]

doesn't that just sound bad? I don't want to drive to Texas for a convention... Well Don, what about the guys from Texas? Should they have ot drive to Mentone every year to be able to attend a convention? I think it should be in a different location each year.

I don't think the guy's from down south or out west should feel at all obligated to attend Mentone. But at the same time, I don't feel they have the right (by-laws be damned) to move the Convention to a new location each year. People have a hard enough time finding the Convention now. If we start moving it all over the country, we may as well not even have the convention. Example: when I first moved to Dayton, OH, I looked for a PRA chapter to be a member of. I found one, but the meetings were held at a different airport each month. I never did cross paths with that chapter for the entire year I lived there.

But in support of the more distant chapters and members, why is it such a bad idea to have more than one convention? I don't think it is. It's been said several times in many different threads that 3 or 4 conventions a year would be a great thing. I'd love to see ROC and El Mirage turn into conventions. I'd also love to see a convention in the pacific northwest like in Scappoose or Molalla, Orygun. Or maybe farther north like Longview, Washington. If it were an annual event, I'd look for a way to go at least one time, like I did with ROC last year.

Mentone already has the facilities to put on a convention. If the convention were to be at a different airport each year, all of the prep work at Mentone would be wasted, and each convention would be an exercise in starting over. I don't think it's at all a wise investment in time or money to keep starting over with each convention.

[Heron]

Oshkosh? Are you talking Oshkosh-B-Gosh, the clothing line? :D
I have been there working a BB game, not the Airventure yet . . .
What is your point?
I keep talking to the wind but the wind does not hear!
Matter fact that game was at Madison I think . . .or wast it Green Bay?
CAn't remember anymore, Al is getting to me!
Heron

[GyroRon]

Don you also said you'd like these " other " conventions to pay in effect a royalty fee for using the PRA name as well. That would be my main problem with it. Our chapter - 13 - barely breaks even from ROC, I don't see how we could afford to send the PRA any money from our earnings. Besides what would you guys do with the money? Airport improvements at Mentone perhaps! ;)

[Heron]

If you guys kindly could explain to me what a Convention means, maybe I will understand better the scope of our discussion.
thanks
Heron

[donshoebridge]

Don you also said you'd like these " other " conventions to pay in effect a royalty fee for using the PRA name as well. That would be my main problem with it. Our chapter - 13 - barely breaks even from ROC, I don't see how we could afford to send the PRA any money from our earnings. Besides what would you guys do with the money? Airport improvements at Mentone perhaps! ;)

I don't know if I'd call it a "royalty". Let me clear the air...

1. Because of the small circle of rotary wingers in the world, I believe that if a convention is going to make any money at all, regardless of where it's held, the airport should be owned by the PRA. Because if it's not than there are a lot of fees to be paid which kills to profits. So the best thing would be to have the airport owned by the PRA, but I doubt the PRA would be willing to buy another airport within the next few years at least.

2. Chapter 81, whom I 'm a part of, does not make ANY money from the convention. We might put a little money in to the PRA's pocket, but we do not make a dime from the convention. Now if the events at the end of July were a fly-in put on by chapter 81, then yes, we would get the money from that event. But if you're going to be putting on a "PRA Convention", then the money should go to the PRA. Don't forget, the PRA does not employ anyone to organize and run the convention. It's on the backs of the membership (me, Tim Blackwell, Rick Marshall, Tom Milton, Glenn Bundy, etc.), but that doesn't mean that the chapters should be paid for their efforts by the PRA.

3. The money that the PRA receives from the convention(s) should go into the PRA's pocket, and how it's spent should be voted on by the board of directors and/or the keepers of the different PRA owned airports. But like I've also been saying in my signature below, I think the presidents of each of the PRA chapters should make up the BOD. That way there is direct PRA representation in every location that there is rotary wing interest. That way chapter members can voice their opinion to their chapter president. And if you're president is a Delta-Alpha (dumb ass) and doesn't have the interests of the chapter at heart, then the members can either start a new chapter or not vote the SOB back into the presidents position.

[Brent_Brown]

The ASC gives you money to help set up the fly-in, not take money. just some info.

[donshoebridge]

And the ASC can afford that too since they aren't limited to rotary winged aircraft. It makes their membership base much larger. I went to their national convention this year. I've been there before, and the primary mode of flight in the ASC seems to be swinging toward PPC's. Tim Blackwell, Rich Lidke and myself brought gyro's, but they were all non-flyable (still building). There were a handful of fixed wing UL's and experimentals, but the remaining 90% were all PPC. The reception we received from some of the PPC types was not at all friendly, and a few people were down right rude. But that's another story.

As for the ASC paying chapters to put on a fly-in, Ok. Other than advertisement, there really isn't much to putting on a fly-in, unless you start adding other attractions like carnival rides for the kids. But I have yet to see anything like that at a fly-in.

Even the ASC nationals didn't really have anything of great expense except for a band, but even that was a waste of time because everybody went into town for dinner when the show started. The band wasn't too happy about that either.

But, anyways... As far as I know, the ASC doesn't own an airport either so they don't have that expense.

[barnstorm2]

PPC guys were rude?

My local PPC guys are nice.

I feel bad for them going through all that setup time, no real taxiing, 25mph tops. (30 if they plop down some killer$$$$).

Maybe they were jelous 'cause you can fly during the day and not just dusk and dawn? :)

I guess I should go fly one before I stick my foot any farther in....;)

[skyflea73]

Hi Tim,
I have not flown my power parachute 1 time since I bought my gyro. Your reasons above are how I was turned on to gyros. I hated being limited to early morning and late afternoon. I still love anything that fly’s but I can't seem to roll out my power parachute, unpack the chute, clear all the lines and fly 26mph circles in the pattern. I get bored real quick! I share a hangar with two friends that have power parachutes that are now getting gyros. They have never even been for a ride in mine. They said they don't need a ride. They have seen me fly and put over two hundred hours on my gyro since May 04.

I can’t imagine anyone that fly’s any aircraft being rude. To me flying is flying and it’s all very cool. I don’t understand the attraction to hot air balloons. (Slow, large crew to get airborne, at mercy of the wind ect ect) They are very pretty to see in the air. I still would never be rude to anyone that shares the dream of flight.

Darren

[barnstorm2]

Two hundred hours since May! shazam! I wish I was clocking up that kind of time!
I might have had a chance but I keep running into strange problems with by soob and redrive... Maybe soon!

I agree, to me it seems all avaitors share a kind of bond. I am even starting to get pangs of guilt when I see caged birds in the pet store!

[GyroRon]

Don you said " Because of the small circle of rotary wingers in the world, I believe that if a convention is going to make any money at all, regardless of where it's held, the airport should be owned by the PRA. Because if it's not than there are a lot of fees to be paid which kills to profits. So the best thing would be to have the airport owned by the PRA, but I doubt the PRA would be willing to buy another airport within the next few years at least."


Not 100 percent sure about the other clubs, but it doesn't cost us anything to the airport to hold ROC. Sure we have a power bill for the campers, but so does Mentone.

All having a airport does for the PRA as a whole, is to no matter what, have a place for us to have a convention. But as someone else here said, there is always plenty of other airports around the country that would LOVE to have us have our fly ins at their place.

[Heron]

Any takers on my Training Financig Program?
It is going to start, who will join? Who will help?
Heron

[PW_Plack]

Lenhardt Airpark, (7S9,) the little airport where I learned to fly, hosts events without fees all summer. There's a weekend for RVs, one for Aeroncas, I think one for Ercoupes...even one where the owner puts on a BBQ for the neighborhood and gives the neighbors free rides. (Cuts down on noise complaints!) I'm sure there would be no problem finding a weekend for a gyro fly-in. The guys who base there love seeing unusual aircraft.

[donshoebridge]

The difference between a "Convention" and a "fly-in" is what kind of state and/or local fees need to be paid. With just a fly-in, it is stricly for fun - there are no factory demos, no "legal" bomb drops, etc. People come and go as they like, whenever they want, how ever they want, low passes included. A "Convention" (like that of Metone) is a bit more restrictive and requires more prep work because of the FAA paper work. I'm not sure of the exact fees that need to be paid for holding such an event. But with a "fly-in", you don't have all of the "lawyer" lingo to deal with - you advertise, you sell breakfast and fuel, people walk around, and all is good. That's one of the reasons that I suggested making the Mentone Convetion more like a fly-in, and not a gyro convention. Mentone needs to be opened up and it needs to be promoted BIG TIME!

Just today, I went to Grissom ARB for a small open house at the samll air museum they have there. They had more "general public" pass through the gates than I have ever seen at Mentone. Except for a few fly-by's, they didn't have any flyable aircraft to look at. They had plenty of kids activities like building your own kite, building your own rubber powered balsa plane, photos op's, etc. It was a huge success!!! And very well done. Plenty of pilots to talk to, plenty of food to eat, and lots of things to do. Mentone doesn't have ANYTHING like what was at this open house. NOTHING! And it's real sad that they don't.

Where ever, and when ever the next PRA convention takes place, we need to start pushing it RIGHT NOW! Not 2-3 months before the event. And we need to have something that will attract a crowd, not just a bunch of gyros flying around with over priced rides! We need someone that would be willing to take a small hit and fly kids 12 and under. It would be nice if the PRA could cover the cost of the fuel for the kids rides, but I don't know if this is possible.

There are hundreds of things that the PRA (WE) could/should be doing to draw people into the PRA and gyros in general. I'm going to keep throwing ideas around to see if anyone bites. But I think the single most important thing that needs to happen is that the Mentone Convention needs to be pushed as a "Fly-in" for all, and not just rotary wing convetion. Someone PLEASE pass this on to Gary Goldberry and the BOD!!! There is going to be an article in the next Rotorcraft mag that I wrote about his. It may not be perfectly accurate, but hopefully, it'll stir the pot a little.

[donshoebridge]

PPC guys were rude?

My local PPC guys are nice.

I feel bad for them going through all that setup time, no real taxiing, 25mph tops. (30 if they plop down some killer$$$$).

Maybe they were jelous 'cause you can fly during the day and not just dusk and dawn? :)

I guess I should go fly one before I stick my foot any farther in....;)

In short, there was almost a fist fight! No lie! The PPC guy kept going off about how "...dangerous gyros..." are, and how "...you'de have to be cravy to fly in one...", etc. Just the weekend before, I had a small talk with a PPC BFI and SHE was the same way. In her words, "...I might be crazy, but I'm not stupid!"

I'm sure there are the same kind of people in all forms of flight, but at least most of them see gyro's as just "flying", and not "gyro flying". I've only recently seen this kind of negitive attitude, and it was all with the PPC types. I don't know why, but they make it sound as if their poo-poo don't stink. But after seeing 4 incidents/acidents at their nationals at Three Rivers a few weeks ago, they stunk a whole lot more than Mentone has ever.

[gyroguy]

Don Shoebridge, PRA# 33036, said, "We need someone that would be willing to take a small hit and fly kids 12 and under."

Too bad Ed Alderfer is driving an 18-wheeler. He loved to take kids up for their first flight and had a very low price for doing it. The kids are PRA's future!

[gyroguy]

Hi guys--

Back on the Forum after a month's absence...

So let me ask the question -- Why should PRA hold a "convention" at Mentone at all?

There are two dozen PRA chapters, and each of them could hold a "fly-in" each year.

I know of car clubs that have one event each year, and their master clubs never hold a "convention" in any location.

The closest analogy is a "regional autorama" for all kinds of cars, something akin to an EAA Regional event like Arlington, Copperstate, etc.

I wouldn't mind having PRA chapter events closer than 1,200 miles from TX.

With the increase in fuel costs, I might even get to go!

Just a thought!

[gyroguy]

If PRA makes a lot of money from its convention, what happens when fuel prices prevent a lot of people from coming?

PRA member dues go up.

Let me ask a second question. Why should the PRA's airport ONLY be used for the PRA Convention?

I'd bet that car clubs would like to have an airport in a remote area for their meets. Or maybe RV clubs, or motorcycle clubs, or swap meets, or multi-acre garage sales that last four days?

My point is that PRA could make some money renting out the airport facilities.

Is there anything wrong with having Non-PRA money pay the PRA bills?

Just a thought!

[GyroRon]

Kerry, is there any bookkeeping that shows that money made by the airport - be that rent on hangar space, rental for use of the airport for a meeting or gathering, fuel, or etc... - goes to the PRA? Or does it go to PRA Mentone? these are two separate corps and if the money goes to PRA Mentone, then having more events may not keep our dues down or make the magazine better. Might help pay for paving a new Taxiway or new runway lighting or some other improvment to the airport though....

[donshoebridge]

[QUOTE=gyroguy]Why should PRA hold a "convention" at Mentone at all?/QUOTE]

The one thing that bothers me about this idea is this...

With money as tight as it is for everyone, why have the convention in a location where showers, bathrooms, consessions, etc. would have to be gotten from scratch? Moving the convention to a different location each year would negate the fruits of labor that have been dumped into Mentone. The work done to fix-up Mentone would have been a waste of time and money.

Now I don't want to get into a pissing match about how the money was wrongly spent, because there's no sense in crying about it now. What's done is done. The question is now do we use the airport, or do we just throw it all away?

I'm all for having more than one official convention. As small as the rotary wing community is, I think this would gain the greatest exposure. You don't see Oshkosh moving all over the world to cater to those less fortunate who can't make the trip, do you? That's why they have Sun-N-Fun & Arlington each year as well. The PRA (we) could do the exact same thing right now - Bensen Days, maybe ROC, move El Mirage to a real airport, and add a rotary wing event in the pacific northwest. It's only time and money, right?

As for the money, does Sun-N-Fun or Arlington pay anything to the EAA?

[gyroguy]

Ron and Don--

Sorry, I don't have a clue where the money goes from the PRA convention at Mentone. And the same for money from EAA regional fly-ins like Sun 'N Fun and Arlington.

Regarding PRA, though... my interest is having more money come in. If there's cash coming in from Non-PRA sources, it should make the burden on PRA members less, or improve the airport at Mentone, etc.

Don, your idea of using Mentone because it has all the facilities has its good points. I've heard that rationale before. But all the years I have been going to Mentone, the attendance has been getting lower. Some people have told me that they've "been to Mentone" and don't need to do it every year. EAA Airventure at Oshkosh doesn't seem to suffer from this attitude. Why does Mentone?

Let's try for gold nuggets here. How can the Mentone Airport be used to generate money for PRA (or PRA Mentone Airport, I don't care)? How can PRA have more fly-ins nationwide and let people see our gyros fly?

[GyroRon]

Kerry the problem some have with this Airport issue is it seems the Pra is dumping alot of money into this airport. But meanwhile the services to the general membership is suffering, Less issues of the magazine, a crappier web site, etc... Any Money made by the Airport should go to the things the rest of us can benifit from, not more Airport improvements.

If there is other events at the airport then great! What would be even better is if that money is used to give us more issues of the magazine or a better web site or more advertising in other magazines etc....

[donshoebridge]

The Mentone attendance problem is 2 fold - 1) bad press about the PRA keeps PRA members from wanting to make the trip (as well as gas prices and other smaller issues), and 2) non-members don't attend the event because they don't know about it. The majority of the people that attend the convention are already members. That's why you have people saying "been there, done that, no need to go again."

Year after year the convention has pretty much the same stuff, so I can understand peoples attitude about not going again. It’s the same attitude I have about air shows. But I don't see ANY effort to cater to the non-members of the PRA. When it comes to signing up new members, the convention is at the bottom of the list. This year, the PRA signed up 1 new member! Oshkosh has signed up more people in a day then the Mentone convention has signed up in the past 5-6 years, and maybe longer!

Just like Oshkosh, there should be an incentive to join the PRA like reduced cost to attend the convention, and the PRA should provide a means of joining right as people are coming through the front gate. Not that it matters because VERY FEW non-members attend. That's why the idea about shifting the convention dates by a few days and push advertisement as a fly-in and stop over for the EAA aircraft that are headed to Oshkosh. Even if only 30 aircraft stopped in, there would be potential to sign up at least 30 new members, which would be 29 more than this past convention.

[quadrirotor]

Can anybody sum up the status of the Mentone airport? i would like to know, before i renew my subscription, if this airport is a burden for the PRA finances?

[Rotornut]

Don you said/

This year, the PRA signed up 1
new member!

Gosh I hope this is not so! I signed up 3 new PRA Members at BD Days 2004.
Hope they count! MJ :)

[Brian Jackson]

...What would be even better is if that money is used to give us more issues of the magazine or a better web site...
Ron,
I'm working on a new PRA site this week... coming up with some design ideas and looking for input. As of this weekend, GyroBuilder.com now has server space and should go live by midweek. I'll use this server space temporarily to publish the preliminary design for the PRA site makeover and post a link here. I'm hoping to get feedback from you and others about what they like, don't like, and how to improve it or add to it.

Once everyone's satisfied with the design and layout, I'll move it over to the PRA.org site. So at least the site's being worked on, and we, collectively, can work together to improve the areas of the PRA that need "fixing up."

Cheers,
Brian Jackson

[quadrirotor]

The former site wasn't so bad!

[donshoebridge]

Don you said/

This year, the PRA signed up 1
new member!

Gosh I hope this is not so! I signed up 3 new PRA Members at BD Days 2004.
Hope they count! MJ :)


Sorry to say, but it's true. I've seen the numbers myself. The Mentone convention doesn't hardly attract any new faces at all. It attracts the members, and that's it.

[barnstorm2]

Way to go Brian! I can't wait to see it!