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DennisFetters
05-07-2009, 08:10 AM
This thread is about the New Air Command Accident Analysis Report. If you want to talk about anything else, or divert attention away from this report, then start your own thread.


Over many years, there have been people inside and outside of the forum that have been spreading misleading information concerning the accent rate of the Air Command gyroplanes. They throw numbers around without the facts behind them, intentionally trying to mislead people into a false conclusion that the Commander gyroplanes were dangerous and deadly to anyone flying them. When people do this, they are misleading you, in fact, it’s the same as lying to you.

What do you think about a person that is trying to intentionally mislead you by not presenting the full facts? I won’t ever stand for it, and why should you? If these people have mislead you all these years about one thing, then what else have they not been completely honest about?

In my constant effort to correct history, I have went through every listed death involved in a Commander gyroplane on the FAA data base, and created a summarized report as to the pertinent information involved in each of the 25 cases listed, and the circumstances behind as to why the pilot crashed. After all, there is a big difference between an aircraft that crashes due to poor flying characteristics, and aircraft that were flown by unqualified people with inadequate training, or even no training at all.

This reports shows the following pertinent information of the pilots competence level, and it forms an unquestionable pattern that none of these 25 events were the fault of the aircraft whatsoever, and all could have been avoided if just basic gyroplane trading would have been completed, except in two cases where the pilots crashed during incapacitation from heart attacks, and one case where the pilot was incapacitated from ice buildup over his eyes and face.

I typed this report by hand, so if anyone finds an error, or knows of other accidents that can be added, or can add additional information to any of these events, please contact me. Here is a summery breakdown of the pilot competence in the 25 reports;

How many of the pilots were Rotorcraft Rated:................None
How many of the pilots are confirmed no training:.............7of 25
How many of the pilots may not have had training:...........10 of 25
How many of the pilots had less than 1 hours training:......1 of 25
How many of the pilots had less than 2 hours training;......3 of 25
How many of the pilots had less than 3 hours training;......2 of 25
How many of the pilots had less than 5 hours training;......2 of 25
How many of the pilots had less than 6 hours training;......2 of 25
How many of the pilots had less than 8 hours training;......1 of 25
How many of the pilots had more than 8 hours training;.....0 of 25
How many of the pilots were killed for other reasons;........3 of 25

The highest time pilot had 23 total hours in type, and was killed showing off beyond his ability during a sales demonstration. This list indicates that as many as 17 out of these 25 pilots probably didn't have any training.

As you can see, the pattern is clear. None of these people had enough training, or no training at all. It would not have mattered if they were flying a HCLT or CLT, they simply did not have enough experience to be flying any type of rotorcraft. I have looked at the few accident reports out of the U.K and Italy, and all fall into the same category as above.

An important factor is to remember when I owned Air Command; we were selling 97% of all gyroplanes being manufactured at the time, which was also an 80% increase of gyroplanes being put into the realm of aviation. It was only natural that the gyroplane accident rate would rise with this 80% increase of gyroplane activity, and accidents had greater odds of being a Commander simply due to our overwhelming dominance of the market.

Today’s gyroplane accident rate had decreased mainly due to around an 85% decrease of gyroplane activity since I left the market.

For those that require the full account of each event listed, you can go the following FAA link and search with the date and location: http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/query.asp

I know that to some people these inconvenient facts go against what they want to believe about the Commander Gyroplane, but more importantly, they go against what they want YOU to believe about the Commander Gyroplane. But facts are facts, and reasonable people will see that.

Air Command FAA Accident Analysis Summery Report;

Report #1;
Name:.....................Joseph R. Benjamin
Date:......................06/26/2005
Location:.................Highgate, VT
Killed:......................1
Type:......................532 Commander Elite
Rotorcraft Rating:......NONE
Training Time:...........NONE
Total Hours in Type:...First flight.
Winds:.....................7
Cause of Accident: ....Pilot's failure to acquire proper training.


Report #2;
Name:.....................Arthur Vernon Close
Date:......................12/03/2004
Location:.................Wilmont, OH
Killed:......................2
Type:......................532 Commander Two-Place SXS
Rotorcraft Rating:......NONE
Training Time:...........UNKNOWN
Total Hours in Type:...UNKNOWN
Winds:.....................8
Cause of Accident:.....Pilot's failure to avoid power lines.


Report #3;
Name:.....................James F. Gear
Date:......................01/01/2003
Location:.................Lansing, IL
Killed:.....................1
Type:.....................532 Commander Elite
Rotorcraft Rating:.....NONE
Training Time:..........UNKNOWN
Total Hours in Type:..UNKNOWN
Winds:....................16 gusts to 21
Cause of Accident:....Pilot's failure to acquire proper training. Factor to the
.............................accident was the wind gusts.

Tom Milton added: I witnessed this fatality. The pilot had recently soloed himself, on a very calm day, without his instructor's consent. The fatality occurred at our club's Polar Bear event on Jan 1st. He claimed he had no intention of flying and was going to taxi his gyro down to the party. With his seatbelt and helmet unfastened, he took of on a very gusty day and was dead within seconds.


Report #4;
Name:.....................Anthony Spagnoletti
Date:......................09/12/1999
Location:.................Conroe, TX
Killed:.....................1
Type:.....................582 Commander
Rotorcraft Rating:.....NONE
Training Time:..........UNKNOWN
Total Hours in Type:.10 (Not flown one year prior to accident)
Winds:...................Calm
Cause of Accident:...Pilot's failure to acquire proper training.

Tom Milton added: I believe the brother of the accident pilot is a member of this forum.


Report #5;
Name:.....................Gary Falen
Date:......................06/12/1994
Location:.................Georgetown, OH
Killed:......................1
Type:......................503 Commander
Rotorcraft Rating:......NONE
Training Time:...........NONE
Total Hours in Type:..8
Winds: Calm
Cause of Accident: ....Pilot's failure to acquire proper training.


Report #6;
Name:.....................John Rains
Date:......................09/26/1992
Location:.................Eureka, CA
Killed:......................2
Type:......................532 Commander Two-Place SXS
Rotorcraft Rating:......NONE
Training Time:...........2
Total Hours in Type:...5
Winds:.....................5
Cause of Accident: .....Pilot's failure to acquire proper training.


Report #7;
Name:.....................Barney Schmidt
Date:......................08/29/1992
Location:.................Dumas, TX
Killed:.....................1
Type:.....................532 Commander
Rotorcraft Rating:.....NONE
Training Time:..........NONE
Total Hours in Type:.2
Winds:...................5
Cause of Accident:...Pilot's failure to acquire proper training. Factor to the
............................accident was 6600 density altitude.


Report #8;
Name:.....................Royce R. Rutter
Date:......................05/31/1992
Location:.................Washburn, IA
Killed:......................1
Type:......................532 Commander
Rotorcraft Rating:......NONE
Training Time:...........3
Total Hours in Type:...7
Winds:.....................7
Cause of Accident:.....Pilot's failure to acquire proper training.


Report #9;
Name:.....................Garry A. Lindsey
Date:......................08/04/1991
Location:.................Libby, MT
Killed:......................1
Type:......................532 Commander Elite
Rotorcraft Rating:......NONE
Training Time:...........NONE
Total Hours in Type:...NONE (First flight)
Winds:.....................Calm
Cause of Accident:.....Pilot's failure to acquire proper training.


Report #10;
Name:.....................Donald R. Lee
Date:......................07/13/1991
Location:.................Quitman, MS
Killed:......................1
Type:......................532 Commander
Rotorcraft Rating:......NONE
Training Time:...........NONE
Total Hours in Type:..5
Winds:....................3
Cause of Accident:....Pilot's failure to acquire proper training.


Report #11;
Name:.....................Charles R. May
Date:......................01/15/1991
Location:.................Tomahawk, WI
Killed:.....................1
Type:.....................503 Commander
Rotorcraft Rating:.....UNKNOWN
Training Time:..........NONE
Total Hours in Type:.12
Winds:...................2
Cause of Accident:...Factor to the accident pilot loss of control, had no
............................goggles and had ¼” of ice buildup over his eyes and
............................face after ground impact.

Tom Milton added: I spoke to a customer of mine that witnessed this accident. It's true about the icing. It was one of his first actual flights in the gyro.


Report #12;
Name:.....................Robert Lewis Demarco
Date:......................04/07/1990
Location:.................Okeechobee, FL
Killed:......................1
Type:......................532 Commander
Rotorcraft Rating:......NONE
Training Time:...........15 minutes
Total Hours in Type:..1
Winds: Calm
Cause of Accident:....Pilot's failure to acquire proper training.


Report #13;
Name:.....................Carl E. Hittle
Date:......................04/07/1990
Location:.................El Paso, TX
Killed:.....................1
Type:.....................532 Commander
Rotorcraft Rating:.....NONE
Training Time:..........2
Total Hours in Type:..2.1 (First flight solo, not flown 6 months after training)
Winds:....................6
Cause of Accident:....Pilot's failure to acquire proper training.


Report #14;
Name:.....................Guerra Oscar J, Jr.
Date:......................02/17/1990
Location:.................Hearne, TX
Killed:.....................1
Type:.....................447 Commander
Rotorcraft Rating:.....NONE
Training Time:..........6.5
Total Hours in Type:..7 (First solo flight)
Winds:....................Calm
Cause of Accident:....Pilot's failure to acquire proper training.

Tom Milton added:I witnessed this fatality at the PRA convention, as did many others. This accident helped lead to the P.A.S.S. card system at the PRA conventions.


Report #15;
Name:.....................Julian A. Sheimo
Date:......................01/22/1990
Location:.................Munster, IN
Killed:.....................1
Type:.....................532 Commander
Rotorcraft Rating:.....NONE
Training Time:..........UNKNOWN
Total Hours in Type:..13
Winds:....................12
Cause of Accident:....Pilot making advanced maneuvers showing off beyond
.............................his ability.

Tom Milton added: This was only his second pattern after 2 or 3 runway passes. His instructor, John Potter, told him NOT to leave the runway. He wasn't ready for a pattern.


Report #16;
Name:.....................Preston E. Stanger
Date:......................01/11/1990
Location:.................Hansen, ID
Killed:.....................1
Type:.....................532 Commander
Rotorcraft Rating:.....NONE
Training Time:..........UNKNOWN
Total Hours in Type:..23
Winds:....................8
Cause of Accident:....Pilot making advanced maneuvers showing off beyond
.............................his ability for sales demo flight, made abrupt right turn
.............................to low and impacted ground.


Report #17;
Name:.....................William E. Fifer
Date:......................11/13/1988
Location:.................Sullivan, IL
Killed:......................1
Type:......................503 Commander
Rotorcraft Rating:......NONE
Training Time:...........6
Total Hours in Type:...6 (First flight solo, not flown 4 months after training)
Winds:.....................12
Cause of Accident:.....Pilot's failure to acquire proper training.

Tom Milton added: I talked to a family member who told me that the pilot wasn't comfortable flying a gyro yet. He decided to "try it" solo.


Report #18;
Name:.....................William A. Cameron
Date:......................10/14/1988
Location:.................Hixson, TN
Killed:......................1
Type:......................532 Commander
Rotorcraft Rating:......NONE
Training Time:...........UNKNOWN
Total Hours in Type:...4 (First flight solo, not flown 4 months after training)
Winds:.....................Calm
Cause of Accident:.....Pilot's failure to acquire proper training.


Report #19;
Name:.....................Robert M. Heibel
Date:......................09/21/1988
Location:.................Cottage Grove, WI
Killed:......................1
Type:......................532 Commander Two-Place SXS
Rotorcraft Rating:......NONE
Training Time:...........3
Total Hours in Type:...8
Winds:.....................8
Cause of Accident:.....Pilot's failure to acquire proper training, and pilots
..............................failure to meet the manufacturers requirement to have
..............................a minimum of 50 hours in type before attempt to fly
..............................532 Commander Two-Place solo.

Tom Milton added: If I remember correctly, the accident pilot had only a pattern or two of dual in this machine with an instructor that had only flown an A&S 18-A. I believe this crash was on his first solo and without his instructors permission. A customer of mine witnessed this accident.


Report #20;
Name:.....................Robert L. Glens
Date:......................07/23/1988
Location:.................Baytown, TX
Killed:......................1
Type:......................532 Commander Elite
Rotorcraft Rating:......NONE
Training Time:...........UNKNOWN
Total Hours in Type:...5
Winds: 4
Cause of Accident:.....Pilot's failure to acquire proper training.


Report #21;
Name:.....................Jerome Lamb
Date:......................11/04/1987
Location:.................Meriden, CT
Killed:......................1
Type:......................532 Commander Elite
Rotorcraft Rating:......NONE
Training Time:...........8
Total Hours in Type:...9
Winds:.....................9
Cause of Accident:.....Pilot's failure to acquire proper training, and failure to
..............................control aircraft.

Tom Milton added: Jerome was a great guy but didn't want to come all the way back to Lansing for more training. (I don't think he had anywhere near the 8 hours listed, maybe 1 or 2)He had a local gyro pilot that was going to "watch him" and guide him through. According to a witness that I talked to, his local guy was late and Jerry decided to fly the runway, he "over ran his blades" and rolled into the ground on rotation.


Report #22;
Name:.....................John L. Watts, SR.
Date:......................07/27/1987
Location:.................Davenport, IA
Killed;......................1
Type:......................532 Commander Elite
Rotorcraft Rating:......NONE
Training Time:...........UNKNOWN
Total Hours in Type:...13
Winds:.....................18 gusting to 26
Cause of Accident:.....Pilot's failure to acquire proper training, and flying in
..............................high winds beyond his ability.

Tom Milton added: Watts was another great guy. John had free training with his purchase. Sadly, John was having a real bad time over-controlling the gyro. He was supposed to come back and fly with our CFI some more,(a forum member) but decided to try it at home. I talked to an eyewitness who described severe over-controlling and bunt. I really doubt this training time as well. I think he only flew with us for 2 afternoons (John, do you recall?)


Report #23;
Name:.....................Kenneth Ray Crews
Date:......................06/28/1987
Location:.................St. Francisville, LA
Killed:......................1
Type:......................532 Commander
Rotorcraft Rating:......NONE
Training Time:...........UNKNOWN
Total Hours in Type:...21
Winds:.....................7
Cause of Accident:.....Suffered heart attack during flight, and lost control.


Report #24;
Name:.....................David P. Langr
Date:......................05/15/1988
Location:.................Dodge Center
Killed:......................1
Type:......................447 Commander
Rotorcraft Rating:......NONE
Training Time:...........NONE
Total Hours in Type:...5
Winds:.....................12
Cause of Accident:.....Pilot's failure to acquire proper training.

Tom Milton added:David got only enough dual to give him the urge to try it alone. His dual was free, but he never came back for the rest of his training. David called me the day before his fatal accident and told me he was flying and doing wing-overs. I encouraged him to come back for more free lessons and not to fly. The next day his hangar partner called to tell me he died doing a wing-over.


Report #25;
Name:.....................Wilter C. Samuels
Date:......................02/01/1987
Location:.................Paducah. KY
Killed:.....................1
Type:.....................532 Commander Elite
Rotorcraft Rating:.....NONE
Training Time:..........UNKNOWN
Total Hours in Type:..5
Winds:....................7
Cause of Accident:....Suffered heart attack during flight, and lost control.


There were five deaths in Commanders in the UK, and all five were being flown by people with no more than 5 hours of training, and then on very windy days. They all fit right in with the US accident report, right down the line. No training, or not enough, and flying in conditions exceeding their abilities.

I have always been very upfront about the dangers involved with maintaining, flying and obtaining proper training. Attached here is some of the warnings that was in my assembly manuals. I have always made proper training a top priority, as you can see. Even though, people would still ignore even the harshest of warnings and the result is an accident or one waiting to happen.

There is much more to flying than learning to control an aircraft. Training is not just to show you how to control the vehicle; it is also about learning how the vehicle works, and why it works. Training is also to teach you to safely operate within the aviation community with other aircraft. It is an essential part of safe flying, and necessary for every type of aircraft.

Remember; Man is a two dimensional creature, while flying is a three dimensional task, of which man must learn.

.

Chuck Roberg
05-07-2009, 09:33 AM
Dennis, here's one you missed.

It was added in on one of your earlier reports. But I noticed it was missing here. Tom Milton had added his own comments to the accident in your earlier report.

Dave was an accomplished pilot in his Air Command with a pod and horiz. stab. Dave had purchased an older type Air Command. He had not flown thru the winter and this was his first flight in his "new" machine.

Witness stated Dave told him he was only going to Taxi down the runway. Dave instead took off and flew a couple of passes over the runway. On the last pass witness stated the gyro dove into the ground.

Name:.....................Dave Geboy
Date:......................Can not remember the exact date. Approx 4-5 years ago
Location:.................Hartford, Wi
Killed:......................1
Type:......................532 Air Command
Rotorcraft Rating:......NONE - but was PPL Rated
Training Time:...........Had training. Unsure of hours
Total Hours in Type:...Over 50 in Air Command.
Winds:.....................3
Cause of Accident: ....My opinon. Pilot was unfamiliar with the flight characteristics of the different model of Air Command.

C. Beaty
05-07-2009, 10:20 AM
As nearly as I can deduce from the published records, there were ~2,000 Bensens registered with a total of 63 fatalities.

There were ~250 AirCommands registered with 25 fatalities.

There are ~75 Dominators registered with 1 fatalty.

On that basis, fatility rates, whatever the cause, are:

AirCommand…………..1/10
Bensen…………………...1/32
Dominator……………….1/75

DennisFetters
05-07-2009, 12:12 PM
When Air Command started, there were no two-place training aircraft. Later, and mainly thanks to the hundreds of Dual-Place Air Commands and a few Parsons two-place aircraft, dual seat training became available.

Blowing through Chucks smoke screen, Dominator customers, since they came out later, benefited from two-place machines where previous designs didn't, which only makes since that they would have a lower accident rate.

Again, blowing through Chucks smoke screen, all Bensens sold were Experimental Homebuilt, and the first thing someone would do when they got "kit section stage one", is register their aircraft with the FAA. Unfortunately, the vast majority were never completed and never flew, or were cracked up on the ground. So, even though there were many registered, they can not be compared to the numbers of flying aircraft.

The Air Command was a complete kit that assembled in a weekend, so nearly all were finished and flown. Out of 1200 Commanders that I sold, most were ultralight and not registered, and nearly half were sold overseas.

Chucks figures are bogus, and like all statistics, can be made to look anyway you want them to look, if you neglect to put the facts along with them.

OzyRuss
05-07-2009, 01:57 PM
Dennis...........you missed another one

Ozy guy, travelled from here to YOU, trained with you or one of your guys, came back here with a brand new machine of yours..................

tragically killed here 2nd time out. This guy was that aware of getting proper training in "type"...........he goes all that way to you. ( that was some 25 yrs ago )

I find myself occasionally thinking of him, when those "air commands " get bandied around in comments. ( young man, was growing a very sucessfull business, 3 gorgeous kids, wife, employing 5...6 guys )

Reeeely peed me off...........still does.

:flame:

C. Beaty
05-07-2009, 02:03 PM
There are interesting parallels between the RAF-2000 and AirCommand Classics.

Something like 257 RAFs made the FAA registry and there were 13 fatal accidents, a ratio of 1/21, about half of the AirCommand rate.

That, even though unacceptable, no doubt reflects the availability of 2-place training. The RAF organization did a commendable job of supplying instructors; including the first several hours of instruction in the purchase price. They just could not face the issue head on, always blaming the victim.

Both the AirCommand and the RAF had similar design flaws. A propeller thrust line well above the CG ensures instability Vs. angle of attack as must be the case with all tail heavy configurations. A mouse trap with a hair trigger.

No one needs to remind me that fatalities versus number of aircraft registered is a crude way of showing the trends but that’s the only information available.

DennisFetters
05-07-2009, 08:49 PM
Dennis...........you missed another one
Ozy guy, travelled from here to YOU, trained with you or one of your guys, came back here with a brand new machine of yours..................
tragically killed here 2nd time out. This guy was that aware of getting proper training in "type"...........he goes all that way to you. ( that was some 25 yrs ago ) I find myself occasionally thinking of him, when those "air commands " get bandied around in comments. ( young man, was growing a very sucessfull business, 3 gorgeous kids, wife, employing 5...6 guys )
Reeeely peed me off...........still does.

It's always sad when anyone dies in any vehicle. It's true that you only see the hole they leave after they are gone, and the lives that are changed afterwords.

I can see there is anger in you, but I'll need to set you straight on some facts.

No one from Australia ever came to me for training, and I have never trained anyone from Australia.

If someone did train him, it was probably Tony Stone, and Tony's training program had nothing to do with me, in fact, I warned people to stay away from him. I believe Tony's program guarantied sign-off in 5 hours... meaning you were done if you had enough training or not. This was the same thing in the UK, where the instructors charged for 5 hours, and you were finished and moved aside for the next person waiting to pay.

I have personally trained several hundred people to fly a gyroplane, and to this date, I don't know of anyone of them that has been killed. Why? Because I knew what to train into them, and took however long it took until I knew they were safe.

So, when you want to place blame for your friends death, don't place it on my shoulders, I had nothing to do with his training, or lack of it.

C. Beaty
05-07-2009, 09:07 PM
I understand Tony Stone was on your payroll before he set out on his own.

You had no control over one of your employees?

OzyRuss
05-07-2009, 09:58 PM
dennis..............his name was Peter R.

check out your records, tell me who then trained him, and who sold him a brand new machine to bring back here.

( them days, i thought you were the one and only man, re aircommands, in fact i;m dead set sure of it ).........

.if indeed you relegated training to another person, and you knew they were pumping out guys at 5 hrs, or thereabouts.........shame on you.

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

DennisFetters
05-08-2009, 07:07 AM
I understand Tony Stone was on your payroll before he set out on his own.

You had no control over one of your employees?

If I loose control over an employee, then at that moment I see to it that they are no longer an employee, and that was the case with Tony Stone. As soon as he received his CFI rating that I paid for, it went to his head and he went renegade, and we parted company immediately. I remember it all like yesterday, because it was quite a loss of time and investment for me.

Tony Stone was no longer employed by me when he started training people. In fact, I even had him booted off my airport after I saw his first few training sessions.

So, all these years you understood wrong, again.

DennisFetters
05-08-2009, 07:38 AM
dennis..............his name was Peter R.
check out your records, tell me who then trained him, and who sold him a brand new machine to bring back here.
( them days, i thought you were the one and only man, re aircommands, in fact i;m dead set sure of it ).........
.if indeed you relegated training to another person, and you knew they were pumping out guys at 5 hrs, or thereabouts.........shame on you.
Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

You know, shame on you for pumping out untrue accusations that you dreamed up.

I had no death grip on independent trainers, and Tony Stone was the only one in the USA that was passing people after only 5 hours of training, and he was never under my employment when doing so. As I said, I terminated his employment once he received his CFI and went renegade, and even expelled him from my airport after watching his cavalier and dangerous training techniques.

Also, I didn't sell him a Commander, he purchased one through an independent dealer, as could anyone. So what who sold it to him, he had the right to purchase an aircraft like anyone, so I won't give the dealers name, because I don't want you blaming him for something he didn't do wrong either.

I am sorry you are upset about your friends death, and rightly so, but it is not acceptable for you to throw the blame of his death on me, when I had absolutely nothing to do with his training, or lack of.

BUD ONEAL
05-08-2009, 11:20 AM
Twenty seven deaths dug up again,For what? I only hope that thier familys don,t read this forum. For shame.

DennisFetters
05-08-2009, 11:34 AM
Twenty seven deaths dug up again,For what? I only hope that thier familys don,t read this forum. For shame.

Bud, the larger picture here is for people to understand the real facts behind those deaths, and learn from their mistakes. They succeeded in polluting the last thread, so I started it all over, and I will do so again if they pull the same trick.

The Air Command has falsely been accused of being a death trap, and that the people that were killed were highly qualified gyro pilots just flying along fat, dumb and happy, and suddenly the Commander killed them out of the blue...... This report proves that is not even close to being the fact.

People need real facts, not fantasized fibs made up by outside people. Here are the real facts, in black and white. People can use them to their own benefit.

OzyRuss
05-08-2009, 02:11 PM
Fact.......your name / product was discussed by peter, me, and others
Fact.......he travelled your way to get trained,
Fact.......he returned with new "aircommand"
Fact.......he passed away 2nd time out
Fact.......ratio of "aircommands" to fatalities, way above other makers.

Fact.......i'm not targeting "you", just those "aircommands"....they were flawed.

dennis........no "fibs" here.

( i'm done on this matter )

DennisFetters
05-08-2009, 02:40 PM
Fact.......your name / product was discussed by peter, me, and others
Fact.......he travelled your way to get trained,
Fact.......he returned with new "aircommand"
Fact.......he passed away 2nd time out
Fact.......ratio of "aircommands" to fatalities, way above other makers.

Fact.......i'm not targeting "you", just those "aircommands"....they were flawed.

dennis........no "fibs" here.
( i'm done on this matter )

OK Russ, however it ever makes you feel better. You are just one of those that won't confuse the issues with the facts, there is no known help for you with that.

fiveboy
05-08-2009, 07:03 PM
Im curious why if the design was good there are not knock offs or more of them still flying?

Im also curious why this thread devolves consistently to a pi$$ing match?

Chuck Roberg
05-08-2009, 08:02 PM
Im also curious why this thread devolves consistently to a pi$$ing match?

I wonder the same thing. Glad I'm not alone in my rambling thoughts.

bowns
05-08-2009, 08:38 PM
My hat off three times to those who contrabute to the gyro safety.
However,I feel some explanation about the rate seems to be trapped in a dilemma that either the occult of flying was kept away deliberately from traineers,or the training was purely impertinent to some(not all) specific gyro models.Isn't it that one was supposed to get his key to safe signory after the training?But there was no key back then,not until PPO became top concern in the field.

C. Beaty
05-09-2009, 03:56 AM
The word for that in US slang is “spin,” bowns. Politicians always have “spin doctors” in their entourage.

DennisFetters
05-10-2009, 05:58 PM
This is not the thread to post this. Please post it in a Mini-500 thread. Would a Monitor please remove it.

C. Beaty
05-11-2009, 06:18 AM
The problem, when assigning probable cause to a gyro accident, is that the investigator, as likely as not, has never before seen a gyro. He follows a “by the numbers” procedure, checking for the presence of fuel in the float bowl, determining whether or not the engine is locked up and attempts to establish control continuity.

If there are no red flags on his check list, then “probable cause” is most likely pilot error.

A striking example of misuse of probable cause is ground rollovers in RAF-2000s. There are 52 reported accidents out of 257 machines on the FAA registry (there could be a few more registered under different names) and except for the 13 or so that tumbled out of the air, most are rollovers.

When the pilot of an RAF allows the nosewheel to touch down while holding rudder, a rollover is likely if there is any forward speed due to the hard coupling between rudder and nosewheel. This typically goes down as pilot error and most RAF boosters agree.

OTH, if steering was by differential braking with a free castering nosewheel, most such rollovers would be avoided.

Most gyro fatalities are tumble accidents where the rotor chops off the vertical tail and the machine flips forward, leaving a smoking hole, usually called loss of control in the NTSB reports.

The propensity to tumble can be eliminated through proper design. Then, training doesn’t become a situation like learning to ride a unicycle on a high wire.

fiveboy
05-11-2009, 07:55 AM
The propensity to tumble can be eliminated through proper design. Then, training doesn’t become a situation like learning to ride a unicycle on a high wire.

To me this is one of the most obvious and well phrased analogies of what the real situation is. I cant believe (as in another thread that just started) that whether a HS is of value is still a controversy. I am trying to think of other aircraft that dont use them... and why? Im coming up blank.

DennisFetters
05-11-2009, 08:41 AM
To me this is one of the most obvious and well phrased analogies of what the real situation is. I cant believe (as in another thread that just started) that whether a HS is of value is still a controversy. I am trying to think of other aircraft that dont use them... and why? Im coming up blank.

I never said anything of the kind. Why would you post that here? I have always said that a horizontal stabilizer is beneficial, and absolutely necessary on a Gyroplane with a pod.

I am not being disrespectful, but I do ask that you become more informed before posting something like this. I realize you may have meant it for the RAF and not me, but you can see how someone reading would be confused.

gyromike
05-11-2009, 08:48 AM
To me this is one of the most obvious and well phrased analogies of what the real situation is. I cant believe (as in another thread that just started) that whether a HS is of value is still a controversy. I am trying to think of other aircraft that dont use them... and why? Im coming up blank.

Trikes don't have horizontal stabs on them.
And yes, they can tumble.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_vbrMUCuZE

gyromike
05-11-2009, 08:51 AM
I never said anything of the kind. Why would you post that here? I have always said that a horizontal stabilizer is beneficial, and absolutely necessary on a Gyroplane with a pod.

I am not being disrespectful, but I do ask that you become more informed before posting something like this. I realize you may have meant it for the RAF and not me, but you can see how someone reading would be confused.

I think Fiveboy was referring to a new thread started this morning, not something you said:

http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21000

fiveboy
05-11-2009, 11:15 AM
I never said anything of the kind. Why would you post that here? I have always said that a horizontal stabilizer is beneficial, and absolutely necessary on a Gyroplane with a pod.

I am not being disrespectful, but I do ask that you become more informed before posting something like this. I realize you may have meant it for the RAF and not me, but you can see how someone reading would be confused.

Dennis I was in NO WAY implying you said that. That was an informed opinion and a sincere question not an accusation whatsoever.

If you do the research (and I dont suggest you should even bother), you will find that I am actually a respectful defender of your authority, just sometimes not your "style".

birdy
05-12-2009, 10:37 PM
When the pilot of an RAF allows the nosewheel to touch down while holding rudder, a rollover is likely if there is any forward speed due to the hard coupling between rudder and nosewheel. This typically goes down as pilot error and most RAF boosters agree.

An easy fix to this hazard CB is to leave a little power on wen touchn down, so's the rudder has more authority.
First thing i noticed wen i first landed the wasa one up was the tendancy for the machine to yaw rite.
Thats coz im sitn on the left, and my weight is maken the machine yaw wen flairn.
A little popwer will stop alota rollovers.
It flairs strate with two up.

gab76
05-13-2009, 05:38 AM
OzyRuss

I remember the gentleman from OZ. I believe he owned an electricity company? His company's slogan was, "Let us remove your shorts". A real nice man and family.

Yes, he did train in Missouri and did not receive a solo endorsement from me. With it being so many years ago, I can't relay my opinion on how good a student he was. One thing I can say, there was no more communication from him after he arrived home. I do believe he traveled about and got more instruction in the US before returning home.

I did receive a card from his wife saying he had perished flying his gyroplane. It was quite a shock to me and my family. She wrote that the authorities had ruled this death, a heart-attack. The gyroplane, she said of witness reports, was flying straight and level, then banked over and flew into the ground without a correction by the pilot. It was a unforgettable loss to me. A health issue is a health issue on the ground but can be aggravated by the stress of flight. So please let me help Dennis here by setting the record straight.

The tragedy to all gyroplane instructors are the out-of-towners who need a trainer but have none locally where they live. In the spirit of the FAA philosophy, an instructor is to continue to monitor and supervise each flight of a student in the name of safety, being a local student and easily accessible to each other. Unfortunately, gyroplane flight and instruction do not enjoy this safety program as does the fixed-wing community. That I believe is where gyroplanes have gotten their bad name for deaths and accidents. There is alot of ways our community could have answered that by putting more instructors to work and that means $$ for scholarships, policing good instructors and approved training curriculum. Be it bad or good, I left training in 1990 because I could not maintain control over a student after he/she left.

Five years ago, I began again training at AC in Caddo Mills, TX with poor equipment. I have since helped AC transition to Subaru power systems to have a wonderful training platform. My own machine here in KC is now done and will be inspected next month. In regards to training, my time will allow work with only local gyroplane students or ones I can travel to see and sponsor. But I will not work with students who do not fit this category. My students in Texas, are drive-ins, not fly-ins. If I work with three guys a summer, that are close and I have absolute control over their training to solo and/or rating, so be it. I don't have to live on the money I make training. I do not need the volume of students to live at the expense of their lives! I will not operate a revolving door training site for a sport that requires so much in safety out of the student and instructor.

DennisFetters
05-13-2009, 06:58 AM
OzyRuss
I remember the gentleman from OZ. With it being so many years ago, I can't relay my opinion on how good a student he was. One thing I can say, there was no more communication from him after he arrived home. I do believe he traveled about and got more instruction in the US before returning home. ....
I did receive a card from his wife saying he had perished flying his gyroplane. It was quite a shock to me and my family. She wrote that the authorities had ruled this death, a heart-attack. The gyroplane, she said of witness reports, was flying straight and level, then banked over and flew into the ground without a correction by the pilot. It was a unforgettable loss to me. A health issue is a health issue on the ground but can be aggravated by the stress of flight. So please let me help Dennis here by setting the record straight.



Thank you Greg, for once again helping to set the record straight.

C. Beaty
05-13-2009, 07:18 AM
When the pilot of an RAF allows the nosewheel to touch down while holding rudder, a rollover is likely if there is any forward speed due to the hard coupling between rudder and nosewheel. This typically goes down as pilot error and most RAF boosters agree.

An easy fix to this hazard CB is to leave a little power on wen touchn down, so's the rudder has more authority.
First thing i noticed wen i first landed the wasa one up was the tendancy for the machine to yaw rite.
Thats coz im sitn on the left, and my weight is maken the machine yaw wen flairn.
A little popwer will stop alota rollovers.
It flairs strate with two up.Whatever the defect, Birdy, there’s generally a workaround.

People manage with false teeth, wooden legs and hearing aids when they must.

OzyRuss
05-13-2009, 02:09 PM
Greg.........thankyou for this. I have no reason to disbelieve you here, this is news to me.
Witness told me exactly the same scenario of the matter..........lost control, flew into ground. With my view that these machines were "flawed", and the same view held by many others BTW, it was a no brainer that is was machine caused.
I rang a couple of our mates this morning re your info, they too had no idea that it was a medical condition, Peter was a man early 30's, fit / active / bouyant, to hear your explanation is a total shock.

To dennis, thankyou for persuing this to this outcome, me, and other mates of peters are now wiser as to the real cause of this sad event.

scott heger
05-27-2009, 07:47 PM
Dennis, I understand you wanting to defend your various gyros and helicopters and setting what you consider,to be the record straight. It is only natural considering so much of your life has been dedicated to these projects. Your accomplishments in aviation are many. However each time any criticism comes up, it seems you fail to acknowledge hardly any culpability in design flaws. Hind sight is 20-20. The classic AirCommands were not the easiest flying gyro ever produced. I agree proper training would bring gyro accident rates to near zero, no matter who the kit manufacture is. Most gyro accidents can be easily explained away, and rightfully so, as pilot error.

It is hard to think about all those accomplishments without mentioning the disaster of the helicopter side. Many people got financially screwed or died in those Mini's. Gyro plots (me included)on this forum will always remember you for what you positively did for gyros, but to the broader GA industry(a MUCH larger group of pilots) will not forgive you for what happened on the kit Helicopter side. I believe that will be the larger legacy that you are remembered for in aviation.

I just don't understand why you keep setting yourself up for this kind of scrutiny. I hope your current projects and accomplishments bring you only future financial and commercial success. You are to be commended for taking the risks involved , and to keep going. However never forget the losses families have suffered that has been related to your business ventures. I know you think I am a jerk, but stop by anytime and talk to me personally about this. Maybe you can change my opinion. You know where to find me, this is a open invitation.

Scott Heger,Laguna Niguel,Ca N86SH