Need input and advice.

[gyrodrifter]

Hi folks,

Ran my brain on the rocks.

I have some pretty good information gathered on how to proceed with what I need to build, something safe..., no problem.

Then I read a few posts on other machines, and poof...my mind escapes the mold I forced it into about building a Dominator type machine.


Let me explain,

I originally wanted to build a Benson type machine, straight keel, simple looker, no fancy stuff.

Weight and power became a problem (In my mind, not having gyro knowhow).

Upon reading, learning (a lot!) and receiving good info, I compiled enough of it to start a build list to get me into a better suited machine.

I went and looked at a partially built frame which is in decent shape and suits for what I would need to carry on with.


Then...,my mind does a quickstep right in front of all of that and says...., "I would rather have a simple straight keeled machine that's not complicated or too involved to build!"
Just like when I started on one in '71.

Yup!...Bingo, right back to square one.

My original "straight keel" idea took a back seat and lay dormant for the duration of searching for info, while excitement kept me sorting out problems I would come across for the more modern or appropriate design.

My realization that I still want to have that original "dream"...,stopped me dead in my tracks and leaves me wondering if I did enough asking, research or looking at possibilities.

I am asking any and everyone of you to help me clear up my thinking, once and for all.

Question;

Is there a straight keeled machine (I like the low slung design and lawnchair thing.) that can accommodate my weight (275lbs) and do that with "any" engine that will have enough power to fly me and some extra (lets say 30lbs for now) weight around, comfortably.

I am not interested to get into 5000 dollar engines, because I can do an awful lot with home building one if I have to, including snow machine engines that are easily available up here, so that becomes a consideration.

Two stroke engines are acceptable as where before I didn't want anything to do with them.
Desire to be able to fly what I want the most, eliminates the picky problem.

I'm not looking for a hot rod, but rather a machine that can handle the weight (but still a straight keeled one) and be reasonably maneuverable at the same time.
I believe ultralight ops are out of the question, so no need to consider that.

CLT is always a good thing, but I am not too worried about learning to deal with HTL operation, after all, that was used for years in the early designs and had a decent success rate.
I am well aware of the problems that can arise when not trained properly on any gyro for that matter.

I'm even willing to go to a design that has "somewhat" of a drop keel, but would like to stick as close to a straight one as I can.

When I look at JazzenJohns build, that's as far as I would like go to drop a keel to accomodate for CLT. (At least it still looks cool.)

Can anyone help me consider these points or give advice so I can make a decision that makes sense?
Negative comments are just as welcome because I need to know everything I can find out to make that decision.

Once more;

Straight keel (or close) with any engine (although I have an EJ22 available, which is heavy at about 260lbs done, my own weight at 275lbs, and hopefully a margin for 30 or so lbs to make for around 305 lbs carry cap max with fuel.

Or if a suggestion takes me to have to operate with NO extras, I want to consider that also.

I need to get this thing cleared out of my head, so I can concentrate on getting to the buying stage for a ride one way or the other.

Thanks all,
John.

[jcarleto]

John,

I have flown the GyRonimo, a "Bee" PART 103 hybrid with a Rotax 503 and 24' rotors at a pilot and accessory weight of nearly 300 pounds in cold weather. I regularly fly the thing with a pilot and accessory weight around 280.

You can see by this video from Bensen Days 2009 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=monc5WzIR8c) that it has no problem getting me off the ground. It is a tad high-thrustline (about 3 inches) but the horizontal stabilizer takes care of that. The GyRonimo (and a Bee in general) is a remarkably simple design.

CLT is best. But since you asked for advice: Learn to fly first. Fly different gyros. THEN decide. And no, I didn't do this..but I'm not particularly smart. I was lucky, however, and the GyRonimo is an excellent machine for my 2XL frame.

*JC*

[danmcgee]

There is a strieght keel Bensen B8M in the pic album on the home page Idehopilot. That is a very basic airframe wether it would hold up to the EJ22 or not... not sure never worked with one. May help you go in the direction you are wanting to go.

Dan

[All_In]

Hi John; I had much the same problem!

It took me much longer to figure this one out and it didn't help that my gyro will be used by a small group of family and friends with different skill levels.

Where you are going to be taking of and landing makes a big difference too!

I finally downgraded my choice to a dominator with a 503 ( I only weight 135 or less) for the first 100 hours and then will choice a machine based on real experience.

It would be hard to go wrong with a dominator to start!

[jcarleto]

I'm no expert, but I have an EJ22 on my 2-place and have seen several Bensen's successfully converted to Subaru. All of them used EA82 Subaru engines..some direct drive, some with a re-drive. I'm thinking that a EJ22 would be more horsepower than you would want/need with a single-place Bensen design.

More horsepower isn't a good thing for a beginner gyro pilot. One would think too much horsepower would lead a beginner to become another PPO statistic.

Lewis Gulley flies a stock Bensen with a 70HP mac, and he weighs about 265. It jumps off the ground. 90HP SuperMac Bensens seem almost to have too much power. The EJ22 develops 130HP. That's the same kind of power that pushes Ron Awad's 2-place dominator around in the air like a leaf in the wind. I can't see anything good from putting that much power on a single-place Bensen design.

You have to consider the landing gear as well. Putting an EJ22 on a Bensen frame and your weight probably means a lot of structural changes. Those here with much more experience than I will no doubt chime in with more detail, but I think an EJ22 on a Bensen frame is too much engine for a single-place.

*JC*

[gyrodrifter]

John,

I have flown the GyRonimo, a "Bee" PART 103 hybrid with a Rotax 503 and 24' rotors at a pilot and accessory weight of nearly 300 pounds in cold weather. I regularly fly the thing with a pilot and accessory weight around 280.

You can see by this video from Bensen Days 2009 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=monc5WzIR8c) that it has no problem getting me off the ground. It is a tad high-thrustline (about 3 inches) but the horizontal stabilizer takes care of that. The GyRonimo (and a Bee in general) is a remarkably simple design.

CLT is best. But since you asked for advice: Learn to fly first. Fly different gyros. THEN decide. And no, I didn't do this..but I'm not particularly smart. I was lucky, however, and the GyRonimo is an excellent machine for my 2XL frame.

*JC*

JC,

Thanks, I'm going to look at that video in a minute after I answer the other comments.

Sounds good and encouraging to me to hear about that weight scenario.
Cold air is a way of life here up north, but more important, I know the intricacies of dense/not so dense air (learned that the hard way too), so I 'll be sure to include those margins if I can, I am not really interested in marginal flying to start out with.

Your advice to learn on diferent machines is also very much appreciated, as I plan to do excactly that, my air time will be put in on what ever I can find to fly with with whomever is going to be the lucky guy to haul my butt around.
Safety is something that got me as far as I have, but it took a bit of doing to convince me that it is the better and longer lasting way.

I'll probably talk to you later on what I am going to see in the video,

Thanks,
John.

[gyrodrifter]

There is a strieght keel Bensen B8M in the pic album on the home page Idehopilot. That is a very basic airframe wether it would hold up to the EJ22 or not... not sure never worked with one. May help you go in the direction you are wanting to go.

Dan

Hey Dan..,

I'm a bit familiar with the B8, it is the next best thing to the original idea that I wanted to build, same with the KB's and BEE's and no, I don't think a 2.2 (or me) would be on them for long if I tried that.

The EJ22 does not nessesarily have to be the powerplant for my purpose.
I was stuck on that engine for the simple reason that I have a few here and building them would only be much simpler and cheaper for me, hence the move towards a Dominator.

If I can put my arse in a simple Bensen, Bee, or what have you, and fly it not too close to max everything, then any engine that can do it comfortably will suffice, regardless of my likes for the Soob.

Getting a rotax or similar engine just means I may take longer to do the build as money does not seem to want to flow well this year.
If I plan right, I can build and keep going without too much trouble, as the individual segments of the build willl be spaced out enough to accommodate my half strength wallet.

Thanks for the post,
Take care,
John.

[GyroDoug]

John,

It is obvious that you like the straight keel Bensen type machine and want to go that way if you can. I have no doubt that you can find something that will handle your weight in that type of machine. Remember, everything about an aircraft is a compromise. The first thing you need to do is decide which desires you have are the highest priority (and why so you understand why it is important to you), then you know what to give up when you have to start making compromises.

One thing I would ask you to consider. There is a reason all modern gyros have been designed with a drop keel. It allows for a bigger propeller, which means better thrust for the same HP & weight. It also allows for a thrust line that is closer to the center of gravity for the machine. While it is true that you can be taught to fly without center line thrust, it is also true that it is easier and safer to fly with near center line thrust. You'd better have a good reason to be throwing away that advantage or you will be making a poor decision in my opinion.

I understand you are working on a limited budget or it simply won't happen. Believe me, I can relate to that motivation, but it still isn't worth risking your life over. There are simple machines that include modern and safer design features. Where there is a will there is a way and if you really want to fly Gyros, I am confidant you will find that way. I think the best advise you have been given is learn to fly first. Try out several different kind of Gyros and learn first hand what works and doesn't work for you. If money is tight, you really can't afford to build one now only to find out that it is not the right Gyro for you and you really need to build another machine to get what you really want. Taking your time and learning a LOT about Gyro's before you make a commitment to building one is a very good idea.

Also be aware, especially in today's economy, you can buy a used Gyro cheaper than you can build one, unless you have access to lots of used parts, and you are an incredible scrounger, and you can do it all yourself. You should really look at the used market to start with until you know what you want and then you can trade up.

Gyro Doug

[gyrodrifter]

Hi John; I had much the same problem!

It took me much longer to figure this one out and it didn't help that my gyro will be used by a small group of family and friends with different skill levels.

Where you are going to be taking of and landing makes a big difference too!

I finally downgraded my choice to a dominator with a 503 ( I only weight 135 or less) for the first 100 hours and then will choice a machine based on real experience.

It would be hard to go wrong with a dominator to start!

Hello John,

I will have to learn in a machine that can safely fly me around, dual is going to be the method for the first bunch of hours anyway, I'm hoping I will not have to buy one to get some decent experience as that would kill the whole idea of building a good simple machine instead.
But I may just have to suck it up and do it the way that gets my butt in the air regardless, that's why with this thread, I want to try one more time to get convinced one way or the other.

I have the info and some leads to parts I need to go ahead with a Dominator if I have to go that route.

Thanks John,

John.:D

[scottessex]

I would be leary of building a small heavy (subaru) gyro, if the pilot weight is already an issue.
A subaru powered single place really performs no better than a rotax 582 powered machine, because you are using the extra power to lift the weight of the engine.
You have gained nothing.
Tim Chick flys a stock KB2 airframe with a rotax 503 and a small prop, (52") Tim is not a large guy, but the combination works.
The Gyronimo is a fantastic piece of work, large rotors for good lift, rotax 503, light weight , huge prop, (not sure 74"??) flys slow, but it will lift a fair amount of payload. (sorry JC :) ) and does not handle like a dumptruck.
The lighter the gyro the more fun it will be to fly.

And John, once you fly the dominator for a while, you will not want to upgrade to anything else. :)

[jcarleto]

but it will lift a fair amount of payload. (sorry JC )

Fair??? FAIR??? I'm proud to be an EXCEPTIONAL amount of payload, thank you very much! :boink:

Next fly-in, I'm playing only Randy Newman songs...

"...short people got...no reason..."

:D

*JC*

[gyrodrifter]

I'm no expert, but I have an EJ22 on my 2-place and have seen several Bensen's successfully converted to Subaru. All of them used EA82 Subaru engines..some direct drive, some with a re-drive. I'm thinking that a EJ22 would be more horsepower than you would want/need with a single-place Bensen design.

More horsepower isn't a good thing for a beginner gyro pilot. One would think too much horsepower would lead a beginner to become another PPO statistic.

Lewis Gulley flies a stock Bensen with a 70HP mac, and he weighs about 265. It jumps off the ground. 90HP SuperMac Bensens seem almost to have too much power. The EJ22 develops 130HP. That's the same kind of power that pushes Ron Awad's 2-place dominator around in the air like a leaf in the wind. I can't see anything good from putting that much power on a single-place Bensen design.

You have to consider the landing gear as well. Putting an EJ22 on a Bensen frame and your weight probably means a lot of structural changes. Those here with much more experience than I will no doubt chime in with more detail, but I think an EJ22 on a Bensen frame is too much engine for a single-place.

*JC*

JC,

I like hearing that bit about Lewis Gully, that sounds like I may be able to pull off a decent machine of my liking and that's excactly what I want to hear from you guys.
I can get pretty crazy sometimes, but I really need to know what I am getting into before I want to push for a Bensen or similar type of ride.
If I get the idea that it will not be too far out in left field to want what I wanted in the first place, then I can feel my way through the hows and why's of that project in threads to guide me through the deal.

Above all, I want a machine that's safe to fly and reasonably balanced.

Your info gives a little more hope that I may still be able to get my flying coathanger.

Regards, John.

[giro5]

I think the first problem you need to address is where are you going to get training. Then get some training and see if after flying a gyro it is still so intriguing. This is going to be one of your biggest problems getting a gyro with instructor that can handle your weight.

My opining is they fly about like a fixed wing ultralilght. At your weight I would recommend taking a ride in a powered parachute if you just want to get up in the air and view the world from 50 feet or a thousand feet. The big drawback is these are light wind only machines. A trike is also a way to carry your weight. Both of these machines can handle you and an instructor.

[gyrodrifter]

I would be leary of building a small heavy (subaru) gyro, if the pilot weight is already an issue.
A subaru powered single place really performs no better than a rotax 582 powered machine, because you are using the extra power to lift the weight of the engine.
You have gained nothing.
Tim Chick flys a stock KB2 airframe with a rotax 503 and a small prop, (52") Tim is not a large guy, but the combination works.
The Gyronimo is a fantastic piece of work, large rotors for good lift, rotax 503, light weight , huge prop, (not sure 74"??) flys slow, but it will lift a fair amount of payload. (sorry JC :) ) and does not handle like a dumptruck.
The lighter the gyro the more fun it will be to fly.

And John, once you fly the dominator for a while, you will not want to upgrade to anything else. :)

Hey Scott,

I am not going to persue the EJ22 thing if I can get the original dream going with a two stroke, The EJ22 was and still is a good powerplant for a dominator, but I never intended to let on that I want to put one on a Bensen after I learned some things.
I'll look up on the gyronimo, see what that's about.
Slow is not a problem for me the slower the better, well reasonably so If I can fly slow and stay up, that's what I would like, most of my flying would be in and out of smaller places, but slow to climb is not good in that case.

I am getting some good answers here already so I think I can probably milk the thread for some good results, makes me happy sofar.

The 503 sounds like an allaround decent deal, I will get into some reading on it too.

Thanks sofar,

I appreciate your comment,
Regards John.

[gyrodrifter]

I think the first problem you need to address is where are you going to get training. Then get some training and see if after flying a gyro it is still so intriguing. This is going to be one of your biggest problems getting a gyro with instructor that can handle your weight.

My opining is they fly about like a fixed wing ultralilght. At your weight I would recommend taking a ride in a powered parachute if you just want to get up in the air and view the world from 50 feet or a thousand feet. The big drawback is these are light wind only machines. A trike is also a way to carry your weight. Both of these machines can handle you and an instructor.

Giro5,

Thanks for the advice to learn to fly one first, it is my intention to get trained before I fly gyro, and I know that instructors are scarce, and that dual flying may be hard to come by.
It has always been a problem.
I will not be looking at flying for at least another two years as far as I can tell, unless something falls in my lap.
If that has to be my biggest problem, it will still not keep me from building my machine when I get my info together.

I can always go south and get time in down there.
I spend more time down there then I do here most of the time :)
It is also part of why I'm on this forum, to learn as much as I can in the next couple of years while I build.

Powered ultralight flying I have done as well as para gliding, but I feel that flying a gyro does not compare with an ultralight eventhough I have no experience in one.
Everything works and acts different in a gyro and reactions to their flight characteristics need to be equally as different IMO.

Parachutes are for people who like parachutes, I think they are dangerous and would not want to be under one again, unless it is at least at 2000 feet up having to come out of something else that failed, it would still beat jumping off cliffs.:D

I am not about to go off and "go flying" in one, I think that would be about the biggest mistake I could make although it would not be the first one, I will let someone else inspect and test fly what I come up with.

Thanks for the caution and suggestions, they are appreciated,
Take care,
John.

[SnoBird]

Have you seen rocky's machine? Looks pretty close to what you're looking for...
http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=47380&d=1213850815
http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=47381&d=1213850815
http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=47382&d=1213850815

[gyromike]

Have you seen rocky's machine? Looks pretty close to what you're looking for...


Now that's a fine lookin' group of fellas!
Especially the guy in the helmet about to go flyin'.

:D

Rocky has a fine flying machine. I like the MZ engine too.

[gyrodrifter]

John,

It is obvious that you like the straight keel Bensen type machine and want to go that way if you can. I have no doubt that you can find something that will handle your weight in that type of machine. Remember, everything about an aircraft is a compromise. The first thing you need to do is decide which desires you have are the highest priority (and why so you understand why it is important to you), then you know what to give up when you have to start making compromises.

One thing I would ask you to consider. There is a reason all modern gyros have been designed with a drop keel. It allows for a bigger propeller, which means better thrust for the same HP & weight. It also allows for a thrust line that is closer to the center of gravity for the machine. While it is true that you can be taught to fly without center line thrust, it is also true that it is easier and safer to fly with near center line thrust. You'd better have a good reason to be throwing away that advantage or you will be making a poor decision in my opinion.

I understand you are working on a limited budget or it simply won't happen. Believe me, I can relate to that motivation, but it still isn't worth risking your life over. There are simple machines that include modern and safer design features. Where there is a will there is a way and if you really want to fly Gyros, I am confidant you will find that way. I think the best advise you have been given is learn to fly first. Try out several different kind of Gyros and learn first hand what works and doesn't work for you. If money is tight, you really can't afford to build one now only to find out that it is not the right Gyro for you and you really need to build another machine to get what you really want. Taking your time and learning a LOT about Gyro's before you make a commitment to building one is a very good idea.

Also be aware, especially in today's economy, you can buy a used Gyro cheaper than you can build one, unless you have access to lots of used parts, and you are an incredible scrounger, and you can do it all yourself. You should really look at the used market to start with until you know what you want and then you can trade up.

Gyro Doug

Hey Doug,

Thanks for your opinion my friend,

All that taken into consideration there are options for me moneywise, however; I wish to stay debt free and and also to stay balanced and keep the horse ahead of the cart and not behind it. (I am not eating crust yet)

I agree with you on the "best advice" comment and plan no different.
I thank all of you who think the same.

I started this thread to find out excactly what my options are on my original dream to build a Bensen, and be able to do that safely.
In no way do I want to force to fly an HLT machine, if I can help it.

Should "NO" become a reality I will build the Dominator or any other machine that could be in the making in order to fly something safe, until such a time comes to transfer to a more spartan machine of my liking, if indeed I still want to do that then.

I will indeed take my time to sort out what the pros and cons are to what I am looking for and what's going to be feasable to do, before I commit to a build.
I never have wanted it any other way.

I am not unaware of everyone's concern with my safety, in fact I think it is a nessessary part of the process and can't be neglected.:yo:

My intention with this thread is to gather information on the possibility of a Bensen type machine carrying my weight and its ability to do so comfortably and so to allow me to enjoy building on that dream.

I have not yet started any build, and will not do so until I have what, in my mind, suits me the best possible way, depending on safety, stability, and ease of building including scrounging for parts and pieces, possibly a whole machine or even a gift from one of you super nice guys.:)

I need to know what engines can and will.
I need to know what blades can and will.
Rotorsize (I have some suggestions for that sofar.)
I know that a lot is related to wing/blade loading figures, but enlighten me if you'd like to.
What types of blades are good not good, I have my own ideas, but like to hear it anyhow.
Profiles are a no brainer.

Are sink rates or glide angles dependent on weight and rotor size alone?

One thing I have never considered is a positive G limit on the rotor or hub, never got into that.
It somehow never seems to get discussed either.

Negative G's I don't even want to consider as I don't think they apply here, unless there is a way to gauge PPO. (sure! only once.)

I need to find folks who are flying with heavy bodies (thanks JC :)) and have gone through the same dilemmas of picking one machine and ending up flying a BEE or a Bensen anyhow.(I surely can't be the only idiot wanting to do that?)

I am not interested to fly tomorrow, as that could simply be solved by buying a used machine and to go for it.

Building is a big soother for me.

It is my intention to gather information on what I want (that was established to be a Bensen, Brock or BEE or equivalent a long time ago) and to always learn more about the machines and their peculiarities as I go.

I may find that the secondary (Dominator) Idea, is indispensible.
I have enough material and or parts to start with, but I can only come to that conclusion AFTER I make sure that the Bensen dream will or will not work for me.

All directions to build in are still open to consideration.

I am not about to risk my life over a dream that's not going to work, but I will exhaust every bit of knowledge I can find to satisfy my own criteria, before I start anything at all.

Man, I really appreciate all of you who put in, because it eventually will all have been a big part of my education on gyros.

Doug, Thanks for your input, it is valuable to me.

Take care,

John.

[gyrodrifter]

Have you seen rocky's machine? Looks pretty close to what you're looking for...
http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=47380&d=1213850815
http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=47381&d=1213850815
http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=47382&d=1213850815


Snobird,

Yeah, that machine was the last one I looked at when I decided to put things on hold, and to dig deeper for the info I need to build a straight to slightly not so straight keel machine.

I think that thing is the next closest generation of straight keel culture I can think of.
Well done to be sure. I liked it right off.
I wondered what the weight on it would be, no pilot full fuel.

And I really like the pumpstick setup, that's a cool thing to see for me.

Anyway thanks for reposting those on this thread, nice and big too, thanks.
Reference material in the making :D

Regards, John.