View Full Version : Phenix tractor Gyro / Website
04-19-2009, 12:11 AM
For those of you interested, the Phenix, a new very roomy tractor gyro, manufactured in Spain, has now its website open:
Fron this website, you can access the specific forums (you need to register first by clicking on "s'inscrire").
It only contains presently basic infos, as the test flight campain is due to start this july, but will be enhanced as the time goes.
04-19-2009, 05:36 AM
It looks very nice, do you have a Price $$$ for it yet.
04-19-2009, 05:41 AM
very Nice, I bet that one won't be cheap.
it does look nice and Roomy.
04-19-2009, 06:58 AM
Well, yes, but this is not yet carved in stone: pricing would be around EUR 80'000. This will be refined when we have the true manufacturing costs (as you can guess, a prototype is... let's say... priceless).
All carbon aircrafts are not cheap anyway, sorry :0) Our guess right now is somewhere between 75'000 and 80'000 Euros for the ultralight (Europe) version, which has digital instruentation.
04-19-2009, 02:53 PM
Looks very nice
Will the company be willing to sell the gyro with out the Rotax 914?
A Yamaha geneses engine would make a very nice replacement for under $8000.00 usd.
That would reduce the cost I would guess about 25 thousand Euros
04-20-2009, 12:33 AM
We may, at a later stage, look into other motorizations, but this is not a priority, taking into account the following parameters:
- whatever engine we put on, the difference in cost will not be really significant;
- customers that go for a fully enclosed, fully equipped, carbon gyro, usually are not really motivated by a discount of a few thousands;
- they indeed prefer to have the security of a known and fully proven engine, on which we have all the needed feedback.
If testing engines is perfectly OK for homebuilders, serial build machines are morally obliged to use proven ones, there are there as well legual aspects we have to take into account.
Remember that, to date, - and over the past 15 years I receive, on the average, infos about "new engines that should at last break the Rotax monopole" not less than... 3 per year !
In all these years, the only 2 that went indeed into production are the HKS and the Jabiru :0))) All others failed...
Now, as a customer, are you sure that you would take the risk of using a "prototype engine" ?
I know for sure that the majority of our potential customers won't.
04-20-2009, 05:59 AM
The Yamaha Geneses engine has been in full production for 4 years with thousands being built every year. The reliability of this engine is quit impressive.
I am not one that just talks. Right now I AM having one of these engines installed on my tractor gyro.
You may not have seen the thread so here are rotary wing forum threads that talk about the engine.
But from a business point of view I do under stand where you are coming from.
And why you don’t want to go down this road.
Will it be sold in kits??
04-20-2009, 10:20 AM
Well John... we do have another one that we want to look at, built not very far away :0)
And no, we won't at first propose it as a kit. As every single aircraft has to be flight tested before delivery, making a kit is simply that, in addition to the usual work... you'd have to dismount it an crate it... meaning ADDITIONAL costs instead of reducing them.
But I am not fully adverse that it could be offered as a "quick built" one at a later stage for specific markets. Just then forget about the 51% rule: all what you could do is assembly, that's the point with full plastic aircrafts, you just cannot bring them down to pieces, like you would do with a tubes-and-sails ultralight.
I noticed that you have on your posts a photo of the jump takeoff gyro that was designed and built by Dick DeGraw and Ernie Boyette. Is your company the owner of that gyroplane and do you plan to put it into production?
04-21-2009, 01:34 AM
No, sorry, what you see was my Futura, and this was not a jumper one. This was a Spanish produced one, Spanish design if you except the cabin that is a modified Exec-like model.
That project is dead since the end of 2007.
Okay, I remember the Futura. Surprisingly, the Futura looks a lot like the LFINO jump gyro that Dick and Ernie developed. They sold the ship and the design to some company in Spain. I think the intent was to build the ship for use in patrolling the forrests in Spain.
05-07-2009, 05:31 PM
Alain, Tks for sharing your new gyro details with us. I see that it carries a parachute as an standard feature. Could you tell us more about the parachute? How it works? Who builds it? etc.. tks! Gracias!
05-09-2009, 07:32 AM
Sure: this is a perfectly standard GRS cannister chute, with ejector (not a rocket, for obvious reasons, but more like a gun). Basically it is placed in the tail, and helps the balance of the gyro (front engine).
On a gyro, the one and only occasion where you would have to pull the chute would be a collision with another aircraft, severely damaging or breaking your rotor blade(s). In this case only, your only security is the parachute.
Problem with parachutes in gyros is that the rotor, or what remains of it, may interfere with the chute's supensive chords (lateral or vertical ejection systems). Other problem is that, when engine is propulsive, it will "push" towards the cabin, increasing the impact force when the aircarft hits the ground rather nose down, cabin first.
There, the idea was that with a chute on the tail, nothing will impede its ejection, and the attitude of the aircraft, when parachute is pulled, has no importance (puts the aircaft in a near-vertical position, nose down). In addition, the front engine, when reaching the ground, will absorb most of the original impact during the first microseconds, in fact reducing impact's force on the passengers.
To date, no-one in Europe has found the funding to make a real controlled test on the use of parachutes on gyro. Some Ela have a lateral one, but my personal impression is that it is a fat chance. So... we simply have no true, controlled data on the "best way to mount a chute" on gyros.
However... To date I have never flown a parachute equipped gyro, that one will be the first... and I sure hope never to have to pull it :0))))
05-09-2009, 07:56 AM
Maybe Alain will allow me to answer you. Iīm Carlos, one of the participants in this project.
When we were designing the phenix, one of the problems with the tractor configuration was that the engineīs weight was positioning the mast right in the middle of the side view between the pilot and passenger and didnīt give an overall good look inside the cabin.
So we put the mast in a more logical position although it was unavoidable to keep it out of the cabin. This gave us a result that we required around 15 kgs. at the rear end of the tail section to keep the CG in position.
Our goal for empty weight was in the range of 290 kgs to meet most european regulations and after making some numbers we could still carry the 15 kgs extra weight. Then the idea just came out: instead of carrying a dead weight why not put something more usefull like a parachute?
The model we use is a ballistic Magnum from Junkers Profly in Germany. It will fire backwards and you will come down nose first. We know this is not comfortable nor easy but if you should ever need to fire it, itīs because you are in real trouble so it will be better than nothing. We have calculated impact speed that will be around 30 klm per hour (6 meters per second according to parachute manufacturer). The machine should be slightly drifting on impact so it should not be a direct one. Also the engine and itīs bulkhead will take most of the energy as itīs the strongest part of the airframe and you wonīt have to fear the engine hitting you from the back.
This is all theory of course and we really hope that nobody will have to be the first to use our system but just imagine if it should work and a life is saved. We would be extremely happy with that.
05-09-2009, 12:48 PM
Is it flying yet?? I would like to see a vidio of it in the air.
05-09-2009, 04:45 PM
Dear Alain and Carlos:
Thank you for your kind explanations. Looks interesting. I am happy that from the land of De la Cierva(and my ancestors) a lot of new gyros are coming out. I was in Barcelona at the end of last year flying a side by side open Giralbet. Wonderful gyro. Also the Ela. and now yours! Congratulations. Felicitaciones! Regards from hot and sunny Panamá. Ramón
05-10-2009, 12:44 AM
Not yet John, give us a few weeks :0) We'll of course add the flight videos on our website in due time.
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